April 27, 2025 • 26 mins
Creating a vibrant workplace culture is essential for driving employee engagement and business success. Wendy Muirhead founding partner at WH People discusses the interplay between culture, visibility, and technology, emphasising the need for organisations to invest in their people while simplifying processes through effective Workforce Management (WFM).
• Exploration of workplace culture’s impact on engagement
• Wendy’s journey in establishing WH People
• The role of leadership in cultivating organizational culture
• Challenges of maintaining culture in larger businesses
• Importance of communication and clarity of vision
• Benefits of Workforce Management technology
• AI’s influence on Workforce Management and employee engagement
• Interrelation between culture, productivity, and retention
• Investment in people as a strategic business imperative
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Productivity Podcast.
This is the first in amini-series with our friends at
WH People and I'm delightedtoday to be joined by Wendy
Muirhead, who is one of thefounding partners.
Hi, wendy.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hi, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Yeah, good, thank you , as we talked about off-air
recovering from a cold, so if Isound all bunged up, it's
nothing personal and it's notman flu.
Just for those listening.
It's not got that bad yet Ihope you're feeling better yeah,
no, I'm good, I'm good.
Thanks for joining us.
As I mentioned, this is thefirst of a mini-series, so
there's yourself today, and thenyour other founding partners,
(00:36):
helen and Paul, will be joiningus for for different chats.
So we're going to cover aspectrum of things today,
focusing on culture, visibilityand people experience.
But before we dive in, wendy,do you want to tell us a little
bit about yourself, your kind ofwork history, how you got to
setting up the business withHelen and Paul?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yeah, I'd love to, and thank you so much for
inviting us on.
We're really excited aboutsupporting this.
Well, I'm Wendy Muirhead.
We set up WH People.
Literally our names are on thetin.
I'm the W, helen is the H, ofWH People and, thank God, paul's
called Paul because we set thebusiness up with people and then
(01:15):
Paul joined us as we weresetting things up.
So, yes, about a year ago it'sjust coming up for our first
anniversary the three of usdecided that we were going to do
things a little bit differentin the industry, and what we
were particularly keen on is howcan we help organizations
(01:37):
really deliver value into theirown companies by empowering
their own people, usingtechnology in a better, easier
way and really driving thatvision for growth.
And so we set up the business.
What was really important to uswas that we had diversity in
(01:57):
the roles that we were doing andyou know, but it's like Simon,
you're setting up a business.
At the beginning you're notreally sure what areas you're
going to get business from.
So it's been a really excitingjourney over the last 12 months,
and one of the things that wethink makes us different is our
collective and very variedexperiences that we've had over
(02:18):
our careers and I was reallylucky actually, because I met
Paul about 15 years ago.
Helen I met around about eightyears ago in my career journey
and Simon, I think you alwaystake people on life's journey
all the good ones with you,don't you, as you move through
life's journey, and I've beendelighted that the three of us
have been able to have thatcommon goal and we get to have
(02:41):
fun at work and do things thatwe love.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Good and your personal background.
You've worked in tech beforeand various other industries.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, I've actually been building businesses since
the noughties, but for bigcorporate organisations, so I've
kind of found myself being abit of an entrepreneur within a
big corporate and so you know Ibring the sort of growth and
strategy into our partnership.
Paul has such a rich historyand you'll hear more from Paul
(03:15):
in his podcast but he's got sucha rich wealth of knowledge in
that workforce management,product and solution design
space.
And Helen is just I alwaysthink of her as the the guru of
HR, shared service, changemanagement, optimization,
process re-engineering.
She's got such a richexperience there as well.
(03:36):
So, again, the three of us withour collective backgrounds
really complement each other andin the work that we do as we
support our clients.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Excellent.
Good.
Sounds like an exciting journeyyear in.
So you're past all the scarystuff now and you're kind of in
the routine of how it all works,aren't you?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, yeah, actually, it's really exciting because
just a few weeks ago, weactually signed off our
five-year growth plan.
So it's great as well becausethere's three of us.
Three is my lucky number.
I have three sons, um, butthere's never an argument when
there's three, because there'salways a majority wins and and
that was part of, you know, partof the mission as well, of of
(04:15):
making it really really fair inthe work that we do, and I
genuinely love the fact thatthose two I vote me constantly,
which is great good, good, yeah,keeps the brain working, keeps
it, keeps it fun.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
But, um, yeah, keep, keeps the wheels spinning as
well, doesn't it?
So that's good so theme fortoday was culture, visibility
and people experience, and youkind of touched on it in your
introduction around culturebeing important when leading
teams.
What's kind of brought you tothat conclusion from what you've
seen, I suppose, in the lastyear with Paul and Helen, but
(04:48):
also in previous experiences?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yeah, I mean I've worked with a lot of companies
over my time.
I've been part of big globalcorporations as well, and if
you've got a great culture andyou can have a great team
culture, that can actually setthe rest of the business on fire
.
You know, if you set somethingup where you've got a vision and
(05:13):
you get the whole team involvedin driving that vision with the
same belief system, attitudes,behaviors, you really get that
momentum and I personally thinkit's the fun stuff Right
attitudes, behaviors you reallyget that momentum and I
personally think it's the funstuff right.
I mean, not everyone can rollout a vision and a cultural
(05:34):
energy across an organization,but I really enjoy that as a
personal thing and I've seen itbeen really successful.
Um, I've seen it be successfulin how teams operate and work
collectively as one team, whichcan be really, really
challenging when you're in acomplex business.
(05:56):
Um, and I've seen other teamsactually be quite jealous of
that dynamic and that, thatcollective energy that comes
from a great culture and theytry to adopt it.
And I think you know, I thinkcompetition is a great thing,
(06:16):
but when you are the smallestorganizational part of the big
machine, to have like anidentity can actually be born
purely from that team cultureand what that belief system is.
So I think if it's done right,it can be absolutely phenomenal.
And I think organizationssometimes miss the opportunity
(06:37):
to get the maximum value andengagement with their people.
And let's's face it, unlessyou're in manufacturing, people
cost is the the biggest cost tothe the most businesses.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
So you know, actually putting the care and attention
into what that culture lookslike and how it's rolled down
and adopted across the business,it can be a massive, massive
difference in keeping people andlosing people yeah, and we know
, certainly in customer facingenvironments, that cost of cost
of retention, cost ofrecruitment, cost of training
(07:10):
and exit is is huge and I thinkthere's stats have been around,
isn't there that is it in retail, for every two people that you,
you recruit and I know it's adecimal number more than 1.5
leave within uh, 12 months andthat that's just a cost, isn't
it um?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
yeah, an expensive one at that, because you've got
to get the hiring process, train, the backup, you know, and, and
and then you're losing all thatinvestment that you put into
that individual as well.
But that's that's.
I mean.
Retail's a great example.
I mean I remember many, manyyears ago I I was going on stage
I went into a retail store,needed to update my makeup past
(07:48):
the age that I wanted to bethese days.
And I went into a makeup storeand I was saying I'm going to be
in a big screen, help me hidethe fact that I'm at retirement
age rather than starting mycareer age.
And the lady was fabulous.
But she said to me I don'tnormally do this, I've had
(08:12):
someone not turn up today andnormally I spend all day in the
back office.
I spent hundreds of pounds withthat lady because she did such a
fantastic job.
And she told me she spent mostof that particular day doing the
workforce management schedulingfor the rest of the team for
the week and it took her thatlong.
And so actually, you know,having that conversation with
her, I was like, look, if you'dbeen in the back of the store
(08:34):
doing the the actual shift rotormanually, you would never have
got this sale and, moreimportantly, if I can help you
to do that with the organizationthat I was with at the time,
where, where we can make that goaway and get technology to do
that for you, you'd get so manymore sales that you're leading
your team from the front of thestore.
(08:55):
So it's really for me, I thinkit's really, really important
that you know you knowtechnology, culture, that
personal experience and thatengagement I, if I hadn't had
that opportunity and she just Imight just went and got a
lipstick.
Instead I bought the whole kitand caboodle, um right.
(09:16):
So so it is one of those thingswhere that you know that one
experience could really put youoff actually going back into
that store again yeah, yeah,absolutely, and we'll.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
We'll come to workforce management, wfo in a
second.
But just kind of circling backon the culture piece, there's
clearly lots of and maybe moredifficult in larger
organizations because you've gotmore fragmentation and and
potentially siloed working butlots of those vision statements
and mission statements that yousee when you enter big buildings
that sometimes can be lipservice but sometimes can
(09:49):
embellish that business as wellin a positive and negative way.
From your experience, do youthink it's easier or harder in
bigger businesses to get thatculture to be universal or
actually is there just anacceptance that there's always
going to be pockets that reallyget it based on personality,
individuals and others that justkind of don't.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I think that's a really interesting point.
I think a lot of big corporateswill try and have the vision
and they find it more difficultto actually get everyone to
adopt into it, especially ifyou're global.
You've got different cultures,you've got different, you know
(10:31):
ways that people operate,different languages, and you've
got all of those things to takeon board as well.
I always kind of think that ifyou've got the energy levels,
you keep it simple and you keepit front of mind for people,
then you get better adoption ofit, irrespective of where they
are in the world.
So not really answered yourquestion, simon, I just I just
(10:53):
think that differentorganizations will do it in
different ways, but if you dokeep it simple, then you get the
better results no, I think it'sinteresting insight and I
suppose my my view for what it'sworth is led from the top.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
So if you've got vision statements and mission
statements and then seniorleaders, you know the people at
the top of pyramid.
If that's how that businessworks delivering those
behaviours or living thosevalues it quickly trickles down
as nothing more than words on awall at reception.
So it has to be led from thetop and everything trickles down
(11:30):
the business, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I totally agree and actually, when we were setting
up, it was one of the firstthings helen and I spoke about.
You know, with helen'sbackground in hr, we actually
said what for us, whilst we'reworking out what is it we want
to do, you know, we were workingout what's our values.
That was the very first thingthat we talked about and we we
settled on three really quicklyactually simplicity, curiosity
(11:55):
and spirit, because we want tobring our uniqueness of the
three, of our individualexpertise, together and we want
to be curious about theorganizations that we're
partnering with.
We want to bring spirit to theorganization's people so that
they feel empowered in the workthat they're doing, and we want
(12:16):
to keep it really simple so thatit works and it drives the
value that that organizationsare looking for.
Um, but, yeah, you're, you'reabsolutely right led from the
top, keeping the, the values,alive and and keeping people
engaged and up to date with themas, as you grow your business,
because when you're bringing newpeople on, you know part of
(12:38):
that onboarding experience isgetting them into what is our
business all about and what'sthe role that you're going to
play as part of that businessand its growth.
So, yeah, no, really good.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Good.
So let's have a bit of a chatabout the tech then.
So you mentioned in thatexperience in beauty that the
lady that was great and sold yousome product and made you feel
better and comfortable for youkind of being on screen spent a
lot of her time making schedules, rosters, whichever terminology
you want to use.
You know, looking at the we'vetalked about this on previous
(13:09):
podcasts looking at the demand,turning that into hours, taking
those hours, plotting peopleshift, shift against it, all
those bits that go into makingthat schedule, which you from
the outside you think could berelatively easy, can become a
absolute cottage industry inlots of organizations.
Now the WFM we use thatterminology, workforce
management tech is supposed toenhance the experience the whole
(13:31):
.
Let's make it vendor agnostic.
Anybody out there selling WFMtech will tell you it's quicker
than you do now, will tell youthat um.
It opens up a load ofopportunity to help colleagues,
people, self-serve, bookholidays, um swap shifts, bid on
shifts is kind of one of thelatest um pieces coming through.
Sometimes that doesn't playthrough.
(13:54):
So in the ideal world, howshould WFM enhance the people
experience?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
in the ideal world, it's super easy to use in some
organizations, um, that theworkforce management tech is the
only engagement that they'llhave with the business, because
not everyone's got a laptop, noteveryone's got email, intranet
access to the you know thesystem of records, um.
(14:21):
So so if, if that's the onlyway that they engage, probably
in their phone, um, people todaywant it to be easy to use,
something that they could pickup, can start tapping into as if
they were picking up somethinglike LinkedIn or Facebook, and
be able to get informationquickly.
The easier it is for people topick it up and to understand how
(14:43):
to operate it, the better thedata that you tend to find that
people actually put back intothe system and the more that
they'll engage it put back intothe system and the more that
they'll engage it.
I've even seen where you knowsome organizations, you know
they've sort of highlight who'sgoing to be on the shift, so
that if people are actuallybidding for the shift that they
(15:05):
can say, actually I quite likethat team, I'm going to go for
that and you know, just havingthat experience again, you know
if it's easy to use and peoplecan access it and and they know
who's going to be on shift.
Yeah, I'll maybe do that extrashift and get a little bit extra
money this week, um, thatthat's the ideal experience, um.
(15:26):
But you're right, you know a lotof companies have struggled to
to set it up, spent actually alot of my career actually in
global payroll space andworkforce management is a
critical part of that process.
And you know, when you hearthat there's stores that they've
had people that are physicallyputting the, the shifts together
and that's been a full-timerole, there's still
(15:46):
organizations out there thatoperate that way, um, and so you
know it can.
It can be quite scary forpeople to think about well, I'm
going to change how I'm doing it, but when they see the results
and the benefits and you know,younger generations as well are
coming through and they areexpecting this kind of level of
technology as well.
(16:06):
So you know, it's definitelysomething.
I've seen a huge shift inmarkets, but there's still a lot
of businesses that are you thatare looking at what their
investment models are going tobe.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah, and I think we see people that kind of fight
the system.
So back to your point on data.
If you're always changingSimon's shift from Monday to
Tuesday, then there's anunderlying data issue.
So people get caught up in theadministration of it, which then
brings a general consensus thatsystems difficult to use, takes
(16:39):
a lot of time, when actuallythe system's a facilitator of
data and information, regardlessof whichever one you use, and
it's typically to do with dataor understanding the benefits
that you can drive from usingsuch a system.
And I suppose I'll caveat thatwith in the coming months years
(17:00):
in the UK certainly, as we'reseeing cost increases we've
talked about it again on otherpodcasts and it's all over the
news the NI stuff that's comingthrough, the national living
wage rises it's probably goingto be more critical than ever to
have a good plan with peoplethat can cover shifts and be a
bit flexible in their workingpatterns to cover peaks and
(17:21):
troughs and holidays andvacancies etc.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Because ultimately, retailers if we focus on retail
and hospitality, they'reprobably going to end up with
less people on the floor becausethey can't afford it yeah, I
know you're absolutely right andI think if, if you've got an
understanding of the level ofskills and the diversity of
skills that people have and thesystem's got that information in
there, it's going to be mucheasier to manage and and so
(17:48):
skills and availability and andmaking that accessible to
employees.
I think that's really the thingsthat organisations need to
think about and how you can getthe tech to do that hard work
for them.
So, you know, typically youwould see technology providers
offer self-service functionality.
(18:09):
If they can make thataccessible and easy for people
to use.
If they can make thataccessible and easy for people
to use, then if I've just wentand learned how to, you know,
bake in the bakery, then I couldput in the skill set, then you
know what I've just done thatbakery course.
I actually could take extrashifts in that area.
You know one cost of living isimpacting everyone.
(18:31):
So you know, people arepotentially going to want more
shifts and more variety in thework that they're doing and and
they also become a more valuableasset that you know an
organization can put in multipledifferent areas yeah,
absolutely, and it it's anexciting space.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Wfm, I think you know there's probably been more
choice than ever in terms ofwhich solution you can buy and
who you can buy it from and howyou can use it.
Where do you kind of see theindustry going?
I'm sure ai will be one of thewords you use, but, um, what's
the trend?
What are what are peoplelooking at or wanting from their
suppliers?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
yeah, I mean, you're right, everyone's talking about
ai.
It's not new.
It's been around a long, longtime.
Tech providers have been usingmachine learning and generative
AI, all of this stuff.
It is definitely the buzzwordat the moment.
But I think, interestinglyenough, I think that there's in
(19:28):
the global payroll space there'sa lot of organizations that are
starting to, you know, eitherrequire workforce management
businesses or build their ownlevels of technology, and you've
got the workforce managementproviders out there that have
been, you know, really focusedin that space and they're
starting to look at, oh, some ofthese other providers that are
(19:55):
moving into our space areactually starting to take a bit
more of the market share up.
So I think it's definitelyinteresting where the industry
is going.
I think that technology ismoving so fast that some of
these other providers and otheradjacent markets are really
starting to make a bit more of adent.
And I have seen, just even inrecent weeks, I've seen, you
(20:19):
know, m&a activity that'shappened in the industry.
So I think there's a lot ofthat from an industry point of
view that's going through.
I think the area, particularlywhen integrating, integrating
businesses together it's how arethey getting the technology and
what's the underlyingfoundational technology and how
(20:41):
is that going to impact on theircustomers.
So it'll be interesting to seewhere that goes and how quickly
they can start like uniformingthe technology if they go down
that path.
Um, but that AI making thingssimpler, talent marketplace,
(21:01):
offering those shifts andadvertising those shifts to
employees and making it excitingfor people to pick it up and
easy for them to pick it up Ithink that's really where the
industry is going to start going, and I think that there's
organizations out there whereyou may have an employee but you
know what they might be workingfor your competitor three days
a week as well.
(21:22):
So I think that level ofdiversity and how you can get
that level of visibility aboutavailability, skills, where
people are going and how thetech can do the hard work I
think that's kind of the paththat we're going to see.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Yeah, I like that kind of call it cradle to grave
of an employee.
So from when they join to whenthey leave, it all works through
the same HR platform, whichthen includes your WFM and all
your onboarding, offboarding,all the other bits, comms, bits
that come through it.
That seems, like you say, to bethe key of people joining
things together.
Yeah, keeping it simple, um,harnessing data and ai that can
(22:03):
surface opportunities, cansurface issues with data quickly
and also offer a remedy, canonly be beneficial.
So, yeah, be be interesting, asyou say, the interesting
marketplace.
If you're supplying thesoftware, it's probably quite a
challenging time todifferentiate, diversify,
because there's so much going onand, as you say, some
(22:24):
consolidation will be a probablyan output from that I think so.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I think so, but do you know?
I say that, but on the otherhand, I'm seeing lots of new
technology platforms thatthere'll be the sort of front
end like communication platformto the employee and then you can
sort of have all of your bestto breed if it's cheaper to do
it that way.
That'll be the conversationaround the board table, I think,
(22:49):
around you know, what's thebest option, what's the cost
model?
Has it got that?
Do I need to have that level ofinvestment to have one platform
that's going to do it all forme, or actually can I get the
benefits of doing all of thatwith this engagement tool that's
going to be the communicationchannel to the employees?
So it's it's interesting timesand I think that the business
(23:11):
cases are all going to bereviewed and stacked up and and
and ultimately it'll be what'sthe best thing for that business
at that point.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah.
So business leaders, kind of inyour mind.
What should they be thinkingabout as we look towards, I
suppose, the next 12, 18 months?
We're faced by these, certainlyin the UK and Europe and who
knows what happens in Americacost, challenges and pressures
that are coming.
So what should they be thinkingabout?
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Well, business leaders I'm talking to today.
Everyone's watching cash.
Everyone's watching you knowthe profit lines and I think
that when we look, especially inthe near future, I think that
where can organizations reallymaximize their opportunities on
(23:59):
career development and skills sothat you're retaining your top
talent?
I think that if you'reinvesting in your people and
you're supporting, you'll getgreater retention For sure.
We've seen loads of studiesthat you know people, if they've
got a clear career path,they'll stay longer and I think
(24:20):
that level of uncertainty willencourage people to stay in the
role that they're in.
So I think those are the sortof key areas that organizations
are really going to be lookingat Keeping really top talent.
But you need to invest and youdon't have to have money to do
that.
Most people will work for money, right, that's the majority of
(24:42):
all these surveys that you get.
People want to get paid at theend of the day.
But if you have a great culture, if you invest and you reward
them, just even from a simplewell done, you've done a great
job today.
Or you've done somethingbrilliant with that customer,
and look what you've done inthat sale today.
Or you've done somethingbrilliant with that customer,
and look what you've done inthat sale, like just that level
(25:02):
of recognition can make anabsolute difference in in how
people feel in the work thatthey do, and so the cultural
aspect, I think, really can helpdrive that growth momentum and
help people stay in the business, which then means that you get
better experiences and that yourcustomers do, and hopefully
they spend more with you and youcontinue to grow.
(25:23):
You know it's the basics, butit's if some organizations
forget how to do that reallywell.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, agreed, and I think there's a real dichotomy
for people at the moment of doyou try and save your way out of
the current economic climate ordo you try and invest your way
out of it, and probably theanswer somewhere somewhere in
the middle and either end of thespectrum is tricky.
So um, exciting times, trickytimes, but um always leads to
innovation and growth, which is,uh, when we look back, I'm sure
(25:51):
in a couple of years, somethingwe'll see from from this period
yeah perfect.
Well, we'll pause there w Wendy,so Helen and Paul to come in
episodes two and three.
Really appreciate you takingthe time to come on and share
your views and telling us a bitmore about WH People.
If people want to reach out toyou, find you what's the best
(26:13):
channel mechanism to do that.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Oh, I love LinkedIn.
Anyone that knows me knows Ilove a linkedin selfie with a
client, so, uh, yeah, if youwant to reach I please feel free
to brilliant, so linkedin isthe best place.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
We'll put a link to your profile in the show notes
so people can find it easily.
And just leaves me say thanksonce again, wendy enjoyed the
chat and thanks for coming onthank you so much.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I hope you're feeling better, simon thanks.
Welcome to the Productivity Podcast.
This is the first in amini-series with our friends at
WH People and I'm delightedtoday to be joined by Wendy
Muirhead, who is one of thefounding partners.
Hi, wendy.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hi, how are you?
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Yeah, good, thank you , as we talked about off-air
recovering from a cold, so if Isound all bunged up, it's
nothing personal and it's notman flu.
Just for those listening.
It's not got that bad yet Ihope you're feeling better yeah,
no, I'm good, I'm good.
Thanks for joining us.
As I mentioned, this is thefirst of a mini-series, so
there's yourself today, and thenyour other founding partners,
(00:36):
helen and Paul, will be joiningus for for different chats.
So we're going to cover aspectrum of things today,
focusing on culture, visibilityand people experience.
But before we dive in, wendy,do you want to tell us a little
bit about yourself, your kind ofwork history, how you got to
setting up the business withHelen and Paul?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yeah, I'd love to, and thank you so much for
inviting us on.
We're really excited aboutsupporting this.
Well, I'm Wendy Muirhead.
We set up WH People.
Literally our names are on thetin.
I'm the W, helen is the H, ofWH People and, thank God, paul's
called Paul because we set thebusiness up with people and then
(01:15):
Paul joined us as we weresetting things up.
So, yes, about a year ago it'sjust coming up for our first
anniversary the three of usdecided that we were going to do
things a little bit differentin the industry, and what we
were particularly keen on is howcan we help organizations
(01:37):
really deliver value into theirown companies by empowering
their own people, usingtechnology in a better, easier
way and really driving thatvision for growth.
And so we set up the business.
What was really important to uswas that we had diversity in
(01:57):
the roles that we were doing andyou know, but it's like Simon,
you're setting up a business.
At the beginning you're notreally sure what areas you're
going to get business from.
So it's been a really excitingjourney over the last 12 months,
and one of the things that wethink makes us different is our
collective and very variedexperiences that we've had over
(02:18):
our careers and I was reallylucky actually, because I met
Paul about 15 years ago.
Helen I met around about eightyears ago in my career journey
and Simon, I think you alwaystake people on life's journey
all the good ones with you,don't you, as you move through
life's journey, and I've beendelighted that the three of us
have been able to have thatcommon goal and we get to have
(02:41):
fun at work and do things thatwe love.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Good and your personal background.
You've worked in tech beforeand various other industries.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, I've actually been building businesses since
the noughties, but for bigcorporate organisations, so I've
kind of found myself being abit of an entrepreneur within a
big corporate and so you know Ibring the sort of growth and
strategy into our partnership.
Paul has such a rich historyand you'll hear more from Paul
(03:15):
in his podcast but he's got sucha rich wealth of knowledge in
that workforce management,product and solution design
space.
And Helen is just I alwaysthink of her as the the guru of
HR, shared service, changemanagement, optimization,
process re-engineering.
She's got such a richexperience there as well.
(03:36):
So, again, the three of us withour collective backgrounds
really complement each other andin the work that we do as we
support our clients.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Excellent.
Good.
Sounds like an exciting journeyyear in.
So you're past all the scarystuff now and you're kind of in
the routine of how it all works,aren't you?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, yeah, actually, it's really exciting because
just a few weeks ago, weactually signed off our
five-year growth plan.
So it's great as well becausethere's three of us.
Three is my lucky number.
I have three sons, um, butthere's never an argument when
there's three, because there'salways a majority wins and and
that was part of, you know, partof the mission as well, of of
(04:15):
making it really really fair inthe work that we do, and I
genuinely love the fact thatthose two I vote me constantly,
which is great good, good, yeah,keeps the brain working, keeps
it, keeps it fun.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
But, um, yeah, keep, keeps the wheels spinning as
well, doesn't it?
So that's good so theme fortoday was culture, visibility
and people experience, and youkind of touched on it in your
introduction around culturebeing important when leading
teams.
What's kind of brought you tothat conclusion from what you've
seen, I suppose, in the lastyear with Paul and Helen, but
(04:48):
also in previous experiences?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yeah, I mean I've worked with a lot of companies
over my time.
I've been part of big globalcorporations as well, and if
you've got a great culture andyou can have a great team
culture, that can actually setthe rest of the business on fire
.
You know, if you set somethingup where you've got a vision and
(05:13):
you get the whole team involvedin driving that vision with the
same belief system, attitudes,behaviors, you really get that
momentum and I personally thinkit's the fun stuff Right
attitudes, behaviors you reallyget that momentum and I
personally think it's the funstuff right.
I mean, not everyone can rollout a vision and a cultural
(05:34):
energy across an organization,but I really enjoy that as a
personal thing and I've seen itbeen really successful.
Um, I've seen it be successfulin how teams operate and work
collectively as one team, whichcan be really, really
challenging when you're in acomplex business.
(05:56):
Um, and I've seen other teamsactually be quite jealous of
that dynamic and that, thatcollective energy that comes
from a great culture and theytry to adopt it.
And I think you know, I thinkcompetition is a great thing,
(06:16):
but when you are the smallestorganizational part of the big
machine, to have like anidentity can actually be born
purely from that team cultureand what that belief system is.
So I think if it's done right,it can be absolutely phenomenal.
And I think organizationssometimes miss the opportunity
(06:37):
to get the maximum value andengagement with their people.
And let's's face it, unlessyou're in manufacturing, people
cost is the the biggest cost tothe the most businesses.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
So you know, actually putting the care and attention
into what that culture lookslike and how it's rolled down
and adopted across the business,it can be a massive, massive
difference in keeping people andlosing people yeah, and we know
, certainly in customer facingenvironments, that cost of cost
of retention, cost ofrecruitment, cost of training
(07:10):
and exit is is huge and I thinkthere's stats have been around,
isn't there that is it in retail, for every two people that you,
you recruit and I know it's adecimal number more than 1.5
leave within uh, 12 months andthat that's just a cost, isn't
it um?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
yeah, an expensive one at that, because you've got
to get the hiring process, train, the backup, you know, and, and
and then you're losing all thatinvestment that you put into
that individual as well.
But that's that's.
I mean.
Retail's a great example.
I mean I remember many, manyyears ago I I was going on stage
I went into a retail store,needed to update my makeup past
(07:48):
the age that I wanted to bethese days.
And I went into a makeup storeand I was saying I'm going to be
in a big screen, help me hidethe fact that I'm at retirement
age rather than starting mycareer age.
And the lady was fabulous.
But she said to me I don'tnormally do this, I've had
(08:12):
someone not turn up today andnormally I spend all day in the
back office.
I spent hundreds of pounds withthat lady because she did such a
fantastic job.
And she told me she spent mostof that particular day doing the
workforce management schedulingfor the rest of the team for
the week and it took her thatlong.
And so actually, you know,having that conversation with
her, I was like, look, if you'dbeen in the back of the store
(08:34):
doing the the actual shift rotormanually, you would never have
got this sale and, moreimportantly, if I can help you
to do that with the organizationthat I was with at the time,
where, where we can make that goaway and get technology to do
that for you, you'd get so manymore sales that you're leading
your team from the front of thestore.
(08:55):
So it's really for me, I thinkit's really, really important
that you know you knowtechnology, culture, that
personal experience and thatengagement I, if I hadn't had
that opportunity and she just Imight just went and got a
lipstick.
Instead I bought the whole kitand caboodle, um right.
(09:16):
So so it is one of those thingswhere that you know that one
experience could really put youoff actually going back into
that store again yeah, yeah,absolutely, and we'll.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
We'll come to workforce management, wfo in a
second.
But just kind of circling backon the culture piece, there's
clearly lots of and maybe moredifficult in larger
organizations because you've gotmore fragmentation and and
potentially siloed working butlots of those vision statements
and mission statements that yousee when you enter big buildings
that sometimes can be lipservice but sometimes can
(09:49):
embellish that business as wellin a positive and negative way.
From your experience, do youthink it's easier or harder in
bigger businesses to get thatculture to be universal or
actually is there just anacceptance that there's always
going to be pockets that reallyget it based on personality,
individuals and others that justkind of don't.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I think that's a really interesting point.
I think a lot of big corporateswill try and have the vision
and they find it more difficultto actually get everyone to
adopt into it, especially ifyou're global.
You've got different cultures,you've got different, you know
(10:31):
ways that people operate,different languages, and you've
got all of those things to takeon board as well.
I always kind of think that ifyou've got the energy levels,
you keep it simple and you keepit front of mind for people,
then you get better adoption ofit, irrespective of where they
are in the world.
So not really answered yourquestion, simon, I just I just
(10:53):
think that differentorganizations will do it in
different ways, but if you dokeep it simple, then you get the
better results no, I think it'sinteresting insight and I
suppose my my view for what it'sworth is led from the top.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
So if you've got vision statements and mission
statements and then seniorleaders, you know the people at
the top of pyramid.
If that's how that businessworks delivering those
behaviours or living thosevalues it quickly trickles down
as nothing more than words on awall at reception.
So it has to be led from thetop and everything trickles down
(11:30):
the business, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I totally agree and actually, when we were setting
up, it was one of the firstthings helen and I spoke about.
You know, with helen'sbackground in hr, we actually
said what for us, whilst we'reworking out what is it we want
to do, you know, we were workingout what's our values.
That was the very first thingthat we talked about and we we
settled on three really quicklyactually simplicity, curiosity
(11:55):
and spirit, because we want tobring our uniqueness of the
three, of our individualexpertise, together and we want
to be curious about theorganizations that we're
partnering with.
We want to bring spirit to theorganization's people so that
they feel empowered in the workthat they're doing, and we want
(12:16):
to keep it really simple so thatit works and it drives the
value that that organizationsare looking for.
Um, but, yeah, you're, you'reabsolutely right led from the
top, keeping the, the values,alive and and keeping people
engaged and up to date with themas, as you grow your business,
because when you're bringing newpeople on, you know part of
(12:38):
that onboarding experience isgetting them into what is our
business all about and what'sthe role that you're going to
play as part of that businessand its growth.
So, yeah, no, really good.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Good.
So let's have a bit of a chatabout the tech then.
So you mentioned in thatexperience in beauty that the
lady that was great and sold yousome product and made you feel
better and comfortable for youkind of being on screen spent a
lot of her time making schedules, rosters, whichever terminology
you want to use.
You know, looking at the we'vetalked about this on previous
(13:09):
podcasts looking at the demand,turning that into hours, taking
those hours, plotting peopleshift, shift against it, all
those bits that go into makingthat schedule, which you from
the outside you think could berelatively easy, can become a
absolute cottage industry inlots of organizations.
Now the WFM we use thatterminology, workforce
management tech is supposed toenhance the experience the whole
(13:31):
.
Let's make it vendor agnostic.
Anybody out there selling WFMtech will tell you it's quicker
than you do now, will tell youthat um.
It opens up a load ofopportunity to help colleagues,
people, self-serve, bookholidays, um swap shifts, bid on
shifts is kind of one of thelatest um pieces coming through.
Sometimes that doesn't playthrough.
(13:54):
So in the ideal world, howshould WFM enhance the people
experience?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
in the ideal world, it's super easy to use in some
organizations, um, that theworkforce management tech is the
only engagement that they'llhave with the business, because
not everyone's got a laptop, noteveryone's got email, intranet
access to the you know thesystem of records, um.
(14:21):
So so if, if that's the onlyway that they engage, probably
in their phone, um, people todaywant it to be easy to use,
something that they could pickup, can start tapping into as if
they were picking up somethinglike LinkedIn or Facebook, and
be able to get informationquickly.
The easier it is for people topick it up and to understand how
(14:43):
to operate it, the better thedata that you tend to find that
people actually put back intothe system and the more that
they'll engage it put back intothe system and the more that
they'll engage it.
I've even seen where you knowsome organizations, you know
they've sort of highlight who'sgoing to be on the shift, so
that if people are actuallybidding for the shift that they
(15:05):
can say, actually I quite likethat team, I'm going to go for
that and you know, just havingthat experience again, you know
if it's easy to use and peoplecan access it and and they know
who's going to be on shift.
Yeah, I'll maybe do that extrashift and get a little bit extra
money this week, um, thatthat's the ideal experience, um.
(15:26):
But you're right, you know a lotof companies have struggled to
to set it up, spent actually alot of my career actually in
global payroll space andworkforce management is a
critical part of that process.
And you know, when you hearthat there's stores that they've
had people that are physicallyputting the, the shifts together
and that's been a full-timerole, there's still
(15:46):
organizations out there thatoperate that way, um, and so you
know it can.
It can be quite scary forpeople to think about well, I'm
going to change how I'm doing it, but when they see the results
and the benefits and you know,younger generations as well are
coming through and they areexpecting this kind of level of
technology as well.
(16:06):
So you know, it's definitelysomething.
I've seen a huge shift inmarkets, but there's still a lot
of businesses that are you thatare looking at what their
investment models are going tobe.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah, and I think we see people that kind of fight
the system.
So back to your point on data.
If you're always changingSimon's shift from Monday to
Tuesday, then there's anunderlying data issue.
So people get caught up in theadministration of it, which then
brings a general consensus thatsystems difficult to use, takes
(16:39):
a lot of time, when actuallythe system's a facilitator of
data and information, regardlessof whichever one you use, and
it's typically to do with dataor understanding the benefits
that you can drive from usingsuch a system.
And I suppose I'll caveat thatwith in the coming months years
(17:00):
in the UK certainly, as we'reseeing cost increases we've
talked about it again on otherpodcasts and it's all over the
news the NI stuff that's comingthrough, the national living
wage rises it's probably goingto be more critical than ever to
have a good plan with peoplethat can cover shifts and be a
bit flexible in their workingpatterns to cover peaks and
(17:21):
troughs and holidays andvacancies etc.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Because ultimately, retailers if we focus on retail
and hospitality, they'reprobably going to end up with
less people on the floor becausethey can't afford it yeah, I
know you're absolutely right andI think if, if you've got an
understanding of the level ofskills and the diversity of
skills that people have and thesystem's got that information in
there, it's going to be mucheasier to manage and and so
(17:48):
skills and availability and andmaking that accessible to
employees.
I think that's really the thingsthat organisations need to
think about and how you can getthe tech to do that hard work
for them.
So, you know, typically youwould see technology providers
offer self-service functionality.
(18:09):
If they can make thataccessible and easy for people
to use.
If they can make thataccessible and easy for people
to use, then if I've just wentand learned how to, you know,
bake in the bakery, then I couldput in the skill set, then you
know what I've just done thatbakery course.
I actually could take extrashifts in that area.
You know one cost of living isimpacting everyone.
(18:31):
So you know, people arepotentially going to want more
shifts and more variety in thework that they're doing and and
they also become a more valuableasset that you know an
organization can put in multipledifferent areas yeah,
absolutely, and it it's anexciting space.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Wfm, I think you know there's probably been more
choice than ever in terms ofwhich solution you can buy and
who you can buy it from and howyou can use it.
Where do you kind of see theindustry going?
I'm sure ai will be one of thewords you use, but, um, what's
the trend?
What are what are peoplelooking at or wanting from their
suppliers?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
yeah, I mean, you're right, everyone's talking about
ai.
It's not new.
It's been around a long, longtime.
Tech providers have been usingmachine learning and generative
AI, all of this stuff.
It is definitely the buzzwordat the moment.
But I think, interestinglyenough, I think that there's in
(19:28):
the global payroll space there'sa lot of organizations that are
starting to, you know, eitherrequire workforce management
businesses or build their ownlevels of technology, and you've
got the workforce managementproviders out there that have
been, you know, really focusedin that space and they're
starting to look at, oh, some ofthese other providers that are
(19:55):
moving into our space areactually starting to take a bit
more of the market share up.
So I think it's definitelyinteresting where the industry
is going.
I think that technology ismoving so fast that some of
these other providers and otheradjacent markets are really
starting to make a bit more of adent.
And I have seen, just even inrecent weeks, I've seen, you
(20:19):
know, m&a activity that'shappened in the industry.
So I think there's a lot ofthat from an industry point of
view that's going through.
I think the area, particularlywhen integrating, integrating
businesses together it's how arethey getting the technology and
what's the underlyingfoundational technology and how
(20:41):
is that going to impact on theircustomers.
So it'll be interesting to seewhere that goes and how quickly
they can start like uniformingthe technology if they go down
that path.
Um, but that AI making thingssimpler, talent marketplace,
(21:01):
offering those shifts andadvertising those shifts to
employees and making it excitingfor people to pick it up and
easy for them to pick it up Ithink that's really where the
industry is going to start going, and I think that there's
organizations out there whereyou may have an employee but you
know what they might be workingfor your competitor three days
a week as well.
(21:22):
So I think that level ofdiversity and how you can get
that level of visibility aboutavailability, skills, where
people are going and how thetech can do the hard work I
think that's kind of the paththat we're going to see.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Yeah, I like that kind of call it cradle to grave
of an employee.
So from when they join to whenthey leave, it all works through
the same HR platform, whichthen includes your WFM and all
your onboarding, offboarding,all the other bits, comms, bits
that come through it.
That seems, like you say, to bethe key of people joining
things together.
Yeah, keeping it simple, um,harnessing data and ai that can
(22:03):
surface opportunities, cansurface issues with data quickly
and also offer a remedy, canonly be beneficial.
So, yeah, be be interesting, asyou say, the interesting
marketplace.
If you're supplying thesoftware, it's probably quite a
challenging time todifferentiate, diversify,
because there's so much going onand, as you say, some
(22:24):
consolidation will be a probablyan output from that I think so.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I think so, but do you know?
I say that, but on the otherhand, I'm seeing lots of new
technology platforms thatthere'll be the sort of front
end like communication platformto the employee and then you can
sort of have all of your bestto breed if it's cheaper to do
it that way.
That'll be the conversationaround the board table, I think,
(22:49):
around you know, what's thebest option, what's the cost
model?
Has it got that?
Do I need to have that level ofinvestment to have one platform
that's going to do it all forme, or actually can I get the
benefits of doing all of thatwith this engagement tool that's
going to be the communicationchannel to the employees?
So it's it's interesting timesand I think that the business
(23:11):
cases are all going to bereviewed and stacked up and and
and ultimately it'll be what'sthe best thing for that business
at that point.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah.
So business leaders, kind of inyour mind.
What should they be thinkingabout as we look towards, I
suppose, the next 12, 18 months?
We're faced by these, certainlyin the UK and Europe and who
knows what happens in Americacost, challenges and pressures
that are coming.
So what should they be thinkingabout?
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Well, business leaders I'm talking to today.
Everyone's watching cash.
Everyone's watching you knowthe profit lines and I think
that when we look, especially inthe near future, I think that
where can organizations reallymaximize their opportunities on
(23:59):
career development and skills sothat you're retaining your top
talent?
I think that if you'reinvesting in your people and
you're supporting, you'll getgreater retention For sure.
We've seen loads of studiesthat you know people, if they've
got a clear career path,they'll stay longer and I think
(24:20):
that level of uncertainty willencourage people to stay in the
role that they're in.
So I think those are the sortof key areas that organizations
are really going to be lookingat Keeping really top talent.
But you need to invest and youdon't have to have money to do
that.
Most people will work for money, right, that's the majority of
(24:42):
all these surveys that you get.
People want to get paid at theend of the day.
But if you have a great culture, if you invest and you reward
them, just even from a simplewell done, you've done a great
job today.
Or you've done somethingbrilliant with that customer,
and look what you've done inthat sale today.
Or you've done somethingbrilliant with that customer,
and look what you've done inthat sale, like just that level
(25:02):
of recognition can make anabsolute difference in in how
people feel in the work thatthey do, and so the cultural
aspect, I think, really can helpdrive that growth momentum and
help people stay in the business, which then means that you get
better experiences and that yourcustomers do, and hopefully
they spend more with you and youcontinue to grow.
(25:23):
You know it's the basics, butit's if some organizations
forget how to do that reallywell.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, agreed, and I think there's a real dichotomy
for people at the moment of doyou try and save your way out of
the current economic climate ordo you try and invest your way
out of it, and probably theanswer somewhere somewhere in
the middle and either end of thespectrum is tricky.
So um, exciting times, trickytimes, but um always leads to
innovation and growth, which is,uh, when we look back, I'm sure
(25:51):
in a couple of years, somethingwe'll see from from this period
yeah perfect.
Well, we'll pause there w Wendy,so Helen and Paul to come in
episodes two and three.
Really appreciate you takingthe time to come on and share
your views and telling us a bitmore about WH People.
If people want to reach out toyou, find you what's the best
(26:13):
channel mechanism to do that.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Oh, I love LinkedIn.
Anyone that knows me knows Ilove a linkedin selfie with a
client, so, uh, yeah, if youwant to reach I please feel free
to brilliant, so linkedin isthe best place.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
We'll put a link to your profile in the show notes
so people can find it easily.
And just leaves me say thanksonce again, wendy enjoyed the
chat and thanks for coming onthank you so much.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I hope you're feeling better, simon thanks.
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