Ep. 34 - From Prehistoric Practices to Present-Day Polarization

This episode examines the connecting threads between the documentaries Unknown: Cave of Bones and The Insurrectionist Next Door. Join us as Ozzie and Kristian discuss how prehistoric practices inform our understanding of the causes of our nation's present-day polarization.  

Episode Transcript

Kristian (00:07):
Welcome to the Retro Sass Mutation podcast, an
exuberantly reckless audioexperience where hosts Ozzie
Kristian Markus and are taskedto compare and discuss two
randomly chosen topics from aroiling cauldron stewing with
the severed remains of allthings life, culture and mass

(00:29):
media.
And this is an exciting episodebecause, after a long absence,
ozzy, as we turn to Grace, isgenius and doing this upon us
all, audience members.
Ozzy, it's an absolute pleasurethat you're back.
How do you feel?
Are you ready?
Do you feel you've kind ofdigested over these, what has

(00:51):
been almost a year?

Ozzie (00:53):
You know what?
There are no words to expresshow I feel, so I'm just going to
perform this dance that.
I'm so just please watch.
Sorry, you guys can't see this.
It's going to be spectacular.

Kristian (01:05):
Yeah, I mean, we're in a really extravagant location.
You know, there's like brittleleaves on the ground.

Ozzie (01:13):
I'm going to go full.

Kristian (01:13):
Kevin Bacon and there's asbestos on the ceiling,
just kind of like, finallydescending in its porous form,
descending upon us, you know,maybe 20 years or get lung
cancer, okay, so you know, youknow we're good, don't worry
about that.

Ozzie (01:30):
I don't know.

Kristian (01:31):
I don't know, I mean we'll find out in 20 years.
I mean, you know, by then we'llbe old anyway.
So could be, you know, causefor a expeditious euthanasia.
But we're getting dark now.

Ozzie (01:41):
This is why I've been gone for so long.

Kristian (01:44):
This is my welcome, oh my.

Ozzie (01:46):
God, my goodness.

Kristian (01:48):
Okay.
So in today's episode we aregoing to be comparing and
discussing two documentarieswhich have been out for a while
now but I think, deserve anextended discussion.
As I was doing my review, a fewpeople, there's been a few
articles written about both, butnothing where there was a
really deep discussion aboutthese topics and I think there's

(02:10):
so much to mind here.
First one is Unknown Cave ofBones directed by Mark Manucci,
which focuses and this isaccording to the New York Times
review on a recent expeditioninto a South African cave that
contains skeletal remains of theancient human relative, homo
Naledi.

(02:31):
The archaeologists finding ledthem to conclude that the Naledi
, who may have existed as farback and this blows my mind
335,000 years ago,ritualistically buried their
dead, among other things whichwe'll discuss, which was
previously unheard of for suchan ancient species, and, of
course, the Insurrection NextDoor by filmmaker

(02:55):
Insurrectionist next door byfilmmaker Alexandra Pelosi, and
this does that name soundfamiliar?
Yes, it's from.
She is what the sister of thedaughter of Nancy Pelosi,
daughter of Nancy Pelosi, andshe interviewed the former or a

(03:18):
group of individuals whoparticipated during the January
6th Insurrection and just tokind of you know it's quite a
cross section of humanity.
It is a cross section ofhumanity and she just kind of
wanted to have a discussion withthem to kind of learn more
about what made them be thereand how they feel about it
currently.
And she was it and she carriedthese interviews as they were in
the process of serving time, ormaybe coming out of time, I

(03:40):
think some are already served,others were about to serve Some
people they guess she got fromthe beginning to the end.

Ozzie (03:48):
Other people she got towards the end, right, but yeah
.

Kristian (03:51):
Yeah, so, as is our ritual with our structure,
remember, we go, we share ourfirst blush or first reactions
to each, a quote that stood outfrom each, why it matters, how
they connect and, if we havetime, the three words that pulls
everything together.
So, ozzy, I'm curious.
Let's start with unknown Capeof Bones, and what was your

(04:13):
first blush?

Ozzie (04:14):
You know what I was so excited about this?
Because you always are cluedinto these types of
documentaries.
I think you were the one whoturned me on to my octopus
teacher.
That was so good and you were soemotional about that and I
thought I was watching this.
I thought I cannot wait to hearabout what you know just

(04:34):
absolutely, I'm sure, grippedyou.
There was a lot for me that Ithought was interesting.
I'm always fascinated by allthings anthropological and some
ideas that I started to playwith my head was you know?
We talked about the connectionof human evolution.

Kristian (04:59):
Right.

Ozzie (05:00):
And there's always thinking of that, the missing
link, and there was kind of afeeling that these Nellettis
might be a sort of missing link,because they have the jaw
structure that is not reallyhuman, and neither is the nose,
but in a much smaller brain.

Kristian (05:20):
Yes.

Ozzie (05:21):
But they still belong to our genus.

Kristian (05:24):
They did and even despite the small size of the
brain I'm glad you pointed itout the fact that they were able
to demonstrate this behavior,burying their dead.

Ozzie (05:34):
Yeah, and tool usage.

Kristian (05:38):
Yeah, so look, there's a few spoiler alerts if you
haven't seen this video.
The key findings among theseanthropologists and
archaeologists is that A thatthey bury their dead, yes.
B that there is evidencesuggesting that they use tools,
and also that they marked thesurface of the cave.
So like an early form ofwriting again remember this is

(06:01):
photography.

Ozzie (06:02):
What would they call it?

Kristian (06:04):
Yeah, pictography.
I believe I could be wrong onthis, but again, this is 335,000
years, which is dates fartherback than anyone had ever
assumed, so that's justfascinating.
But first of all, what reallystood out to me is the lengths
they went to actually bury theirdead, and that's what some of

(06:24):
their initial hesitation was toaccept this, because it's first
of all.
You go into this cave right.
It's called the cave of wonders.
Cave.
No, there's a different namethe rising star cave.

Ozzie (06:35):
That's what it was.

Kristian (06:35):
The rising star cave and a paleontologist Lee Berger,
yeah, his archaeological workwho really kind of explored this
, this cave.
And it's crazy because you kindof first you walk in, it's this
big chamber, but then there'slike this really narrow, steep
descent into another walkway andthen another passageway, and

(06:56):
first of all, like they, to getto this, to get down this steep,
I guess channel, they had touse all this modern ropes and
you know, climbing equipment.
But the Nadelli, you know, didit themselves and imagine,
they're much smarter.

Ozzie (07:11):
Smaller to me, they were smaller and they're more.

Kristian (07:14):
Limbs are a little more spindly, yeah I agree, they
had a different gate.
They said different gate, so tome it's not difficult to
imagine that they were able tomove down, because they're more
sure, so difficult.
But it's still, I mean, it's ajourney, it's similar to like a
pilgrimage, right?
So in traditional religiousbelief systems, each religious
belief system, has a type ofpilgrimage activity, which

(07:35):
sometimes involves somehardships or some ordeal or some
challenge or some you know kindof gathering around some
occasion in celebration ofwhatever it is that they believe
in.
So you can make the argumentand this wasn't really touched
on in that coming up, but whenthere's almost felt like a very
processional type of activity inthat the Nadelli had to
obviously work together to theNaledi had to work together to

(08:00):
to cancel that the Naledi peopleare going to come together and
write a campaign campaign.
That's right, it's.

Ozzie (08:08):
I've already look at X right now.

Kristian (08:10):
Yeah.

Ozzie (08:12):
The ladies are trending.

Kristian (08:15):
Okay, so out of respect to their unknown
pronouns, the Naledi, so theNaledi had to work together to
kind of bring down theirdeceased brethren.
And then, you know, take it toanother chamber and bury it, and
then there's also evidence oflike firewood and food.
So they would, you know, theydefinitely spent time there to
kind of and they put the tool inthe kids hand.

(08:36):
They put the tool in the kidshand, which was just
mind-blowing, so almost likethis thought of the afterlife
that, seems, is what it seems tosuggest, like hey.

Ozzie (08:45):
I don't know about that.
I thought that they missed someopportunity to say, well, it
could be, this was his favoritetool.
It could be the way we get intothe afterlife is or you know
you're going to have to protectyourself, or it could be like we
are kind of artistic beings andwe want to give you this for
the next canvas that you go to.

Kristian (09:03):
All right, I like that the idea is, or maybe it was.

Ozzie (09:06):
This was your favorite thing, and we want you to be
with your favorite thing, whoknows, as there's also
conjecture at this point.
What is interesting to consider, though, is For them to have
such an intentional practicesuggests some belief system.

Kristian (09:23):
Right, yes.

Ozzie (09:25):
And to think brains on that minuscule level that are
supposedly far less evolved thanours, based on our
understanding of how a massivegrade matter and cerebellum is
going to be in higher levelthinking.
For them to already have thatembedded into their practices
suggests that maybe there is asort of faith or belief or God

(09:53):
idea built into our brains.

Kristian (09:58):
That's a great point and it is mentioned.
The video, like you know, itseems like when you go, you look
at every culture at any timeperiod, whether it's ancient to
modern day.
Every culture has a belief insome sort of deity or afterlife,
even if it for those culturesthere's more animalistic.
What is it?
There's a term, the animalistic, where they believe that the

(10:21):
objects and or animate.

Ozzie (10:23):
Animate it, yeah.

Kristian (10:24):
Animate, like they have some kind of energy or
spirit suggests that.
So the fact that, yeah, likegreat point that it goes back
this far is interesting.
Like why is it that we allliving species, at least that's
connected to homo sapiens orlead up to homo sapiens, seems
to carry this type of in there?

(10:44):
Yeah, although I want to sayone thing about the brains, like
I always hear this, like oh,large brain, small brain, but I
also think it's density.
So even though they had asmaller brain, arguably it could
be said that maybe they had adenser brain, maybe they had
more connections they made moreuse of what they did have and of
course there is something to bethe clear later sign that I'm

(11:06):
going to point to that sizematters.

Ozzie (11:08):
Yeah, come on.
Your wife just jumped in.

Kristian (11:12):
No, my phone is ringing, she said it matters.

Ozzie (11:16):
But, it doesn't happen to every guy and it is a big deal.

Kristian (11:19):
It is a big deal, but it's also, you know, whew man
boy, I'm glad I don't have thatproblem.
I just couldn't imagine.
But anyway, so I'm thinkingabout.
So, first blush, okay, my threewords.
I'm going to turn it to you, ohwow, already feeling Is
validated.
validated in the sense that Ihave always felt that the
origins of human evolution goesway back and there's no way that

(11:43):
we were the only ones whoexhibited complex behavior.
And fascinating because I thinkthis I mean what's suggested as
we've been talking about isamazing, but also kind of sad in
the sense that, you know,there's all these species that
predates us that had complexbehavior that we'll probably
never even know about.

Ozzie (12:01):
So Nadelli Naledi is I'm going to fire, I'm just going to
stop talking.

Kristian (12:06):
Ozzie, please first blush.

Ozzie (12:08):
No, no, keep going.

Kristian (12:09):
But no, it was kind of sad in the sense that you know
how many other species that youknow goes back 50, 100, 200, 300
, a million years that hadcomplex behavior.
I probably had beautiful,intricate lives and communities
and ways of interacting.
And the meanings that theyimparted to their day to day
lives We'll never know and it'sjust gone.

Ozzie (12:30):
Is this like an ancient alien type of take?
You have what are?
You talking about, like youthink there's, complex humans.
It's like 300,000, 400,000, amillion years ago.

Kristian (12:39):
I wouldn't say I mean okay, so not complex to the
extent that we are complex,right, but but wildly, who knows
?
I mean that's the okay.
That brings up all the topicyou know for the longest time.
I mean science.
Recent science continues toshow, like the octopus document
you mentioned earlier, thatanimals that we have so easily
dismissed as being rudimentary,or oh, they're just robots or

(13:01):
they just operate solely oninstinct do have complex
behavior In terms of crows, whosupposedly have a language, they
use tools.
Elephants, who mourn their deadyou know dolphins Rays that sing
yes and who have dialectsdepending on regional dialects,
and they come together and theyforge these like kind of very
community specific songs.

(13:21):
So okay, but yeah, who knowswhat kinds of complex behavior
there were are indeed in thepast, dating back hundreds of
thousands of years.

Ozzie (13:31):
Yeah, I thought you meant more like on the societal level
, like they were buildingstructures and then there was a
mass extinction.

Kristian (13:37):
I think we're getting conspiratorial.

Ozzie (13:39):
Okay, I see, I haven't seen you in a long time.
I didn't know if you've gone.
Some rabbit holes.

Kristian (13:43):
I mean, you was on my list lately, you know, I mean
that's you know I'm thinking ofgoing up to Canada.
So you know that's in the cards.

Ozzie (13:51):
Why?
What are you going up there for?

Kristian (13:52):
I guess this is one crazy lady who she seems to be
like the queen of Canada andshe's like, yeah, she has a lot
of things.
You didn't hear about this.
Oh my God, that's a discussionfrom the other day.
But yeah, I know this lady whois calls herself this queen of
Canada and has this like smallcult, like following, and they

(14:14):
like occupied some remote townin Canada and like the
surrounding people were justlike freaking out about it,
trying to get rid of her.
Yeah, so, this was like recently, dog, what you've been doing.

Ozzie (14:25):
Living my life.
I don't know.

Kristian (14:26):
Yeah, this is terrible Okay.

Ozzie (14:27):
I'm gonna have to look that up next episode.

Kristian (14:30):
Okay, so let's go back .
I mean so, does that satisfyyour first blush?
Do you want to transition towhy it matters?

Ozzie (14:38):
You know?
Something else I just want totouch on, though with that is I
don't know that I'll everexperience the same level of
high that that one character whosaid he's been watching this
for eight and a half years andthen finally he went down the
shaft and he went into thatplace and he looked up and the
wonderment of it for him Likehow few people could ever feel

(15:03):
anything as strongly as a manwho has committed his life to a
singular experience and then hegets to do it and it gets to be
on tape and he can revisit it.
You know, I was just so happyfor him, but I was also thinking
about how rare that experiencemust be and I thought they
captured that really well.

Kristian (15:20):
No, that's a great point, that's a great point I
make nothing but great points.
Let's go Okay.
So I want to build on thatbecause I think that speaks to
the fact that our currenteconomic, societal,
civilizational systems, you know, put us in kind of our more
regiment, force us all into aregiment, into kind of scripted

(15:43):
patterns and service of whoeverand it doesn't allow for as many
opportunities as that where youget obsessed over an idea or
you set yourself to a task ofyour own choosing and you create
almost like your own personaladventure and journey.
And you know, we all end up inthese nine to five jobs and some
are cool, some are interestingor others are more bland and

(16:05):
monotonous, but he is someone.
I think this is the Lee BergerI believe I could run.

Ozzie (16:12):
Lovely.

Kristian (16:12):
And he, yeah, he is.
He found a passion and hiswhole life was dedicated in the
service of this quest fordiscovery and he seems like he
had definitely more agency tofulfill his own desires and
wonder like to, you know, toexact or to manifest that wonder
in a way that many of usactually don't have.
That chance, I don't know.

(16:33):
So how do you feel?
Do you feel?
Do you have?
Are you pursuing your ownwonder?

Ozzie (16:38):
Are you in a position, there's few things that I can
dedicate myself to like that.
I'm kind of a generalist tobegin with you know Right, right
, I just think that thegeneralist gets to connect with
many yes, and that's my benefitof being that way Whereas the
deep diver has that greater, youknow, depth of experience.

(16:59):
I don't think when he wassitting there looking up at the
ceiling of it and blown away.
I was like I've seen the SistineChapel.
When my daughter was born, Iexploded with emotion and I
imagine that's the closest thingthat I'll ever have.
You know, but my daughterwasn't Like.

(17:20):
The creation of her was new.
It wasn't planned in the sameway.
This guy's life was dedicatedto one idea you know he slept
thinking about it.
He dreamed about it.
Probably it's like, probablywhat it's like to be an
astronaut when you were a kid,dreaming of being an astronaut.
And then you finally up in spaceand you're like yo what is it?

Kristian (17:39):
That's like a true fulfillment of a dream and the
journey they took to get thereAlthough you know, I consider
myself a generalist as well, andI think there's opportunities
for that moment of wonderment.

Ozzie (17:51):
No, there isn't, You're wrong.

Kristian (17:54):
Well, I think the advantages of being a generalist
Okay.
So the disadvantage, obviously,of the generalist, like you
said, is you don't really deepdive into the one particular
thing, right?
When you think of academia, alot of professors like they will
dedicate their entire lives tothis one thing, at the exclusion
of almost everything else.
But as a generalist I think weget a nice broad overview of all

(18:15):
the wonderful phenomenon eventsand ideas, Not all, but a lot.

Ozzie (18:19):
I mean a lot.

Kristian (18:19):
Yeah, correct, it would be interesting to say.
But we do it at a moreshallower level.
But at least we get a biggerpicture and from that we can
have our own unique perspectiveof things.
But that's always a struggle,right it's?
You're either a generalist or aspecialist, and it's hard to
find that balance between thetwo.
It's kind of an either or typeof thing.

Ozzie (18:39):
There's a CS Lewis short story called Looking a Beam in a
Tool Shed.
That's a great one.
It's about looking at versuslooking along.
Looking at the little beam thatcracks through the tool shed,
you see it as a little speck oflight and it's fairly
insignificant and you can breakit down scientifically and
that's like the way we look atthe world.
When we think of people tryingto do dances to create rain and

(19:01):
we all know obviously you can'tdo that.
So there is some argument forthe sort of movement that
creates in the ground from that.
Well, anyway, that's beyond myunderstanding right now.
But we look at that and wethink there's no connection,
generally speaking, from thescientific approach.
The same way we look at whensomebody falls in love.
We say actually what that is isa production of oxytocin and

(19:23):
etc.
But looking along is puttingyour eye to the whole of the
crack in the beam and seeing allthe way from that light to the
sun, and you're encapsulated byit and that's the feeling of
being in love, that's thefeeling of being a part of a
community where you doritualistic practices that you
believe wholeheartedly willmanifest a certain collective

(19:47):
desire, and those are reallypotent experiences.
Somebody who is just diagnosingit?
misses out on.
They don't look like fools tothe outsiders, but they don't
feel like love or community theway somebody on the inside does,

(20:07):
which I think transitions wellto what the insurrectionist next
door is about Immediately, Iunderstood that Pelosi was
choosing people and filming themin a way that is going to,
maybe through her own bias ofwanting to humanize them create

(20:29):
a more sympathetic character andmy heart went out to so many of
these characters.
I'm glad you said that.

Kristian (20:35):
Be careful with your scarf, it's a beautiful bow.

Ozzie (20:38):
Oh, thank you.

Kristian (20:38):
I'm absolutely in awe and amored of it, but it's kind
of brushing up on the mic.
You're a good man.

Ozzie (20:42):
Thank you for watching that, but a lot of these people
just you know, when they firsthappened we had a podcast around
it and we both were kind ofsympathetic to them too, because
we thought, like in some cases,as is projected in the movie,
the documentary, a lot of thesepeople seemed a little gullible,
to put it, you know,euphemistically.

(21:06):
In other cases logic wasn'tdictating behavior, it was more
of I belong to a community andthat feels so good, and American
life is so alienating andisolated that to just belong was
enough to get them to do thingsthat they regret or that

(21:28):
they're doubling down on.
But in all of these cases, youknow, you see them and you go.
I have some sort of sympathyfor them.

Kristian (21:39):
Yeah, that was one of my key words I put down for my
first blush, which is, in asense, heart broken, also
frustrated.
Upset because and I think thisis what the documentary do Also
Pelosi, she I felt she was alittle I didn't like her tone at
the very, very beginningbecause I felt like she was

(22:00):
almost confrontational orcondescending a little little
condescending but it seemed likeshe had relationships with them
, though, and I think that's whyshe was so comfortable she
wasn't seeing them one time andmake an interview.
There was multiple over theduration of the pocket or the
documentary.
She, her tone did shift whereshe was more sympathetic.
So I did see that shift in herbut like initially, like the

(22:22):
first 10 minutes I was kind oflike why are you being so
condescending?
But she definitely that tone inthat change.
But yeah, I feel that a lot ofthese people were clearly the
victims of being misled.
But also it's because there'sthere's some real, partial
truths that inspire this kind ofdescent into the type of maybe
delusions a strong word, butthey're not evil people, they're

(22:45):
not.
They're disenchantment and fanfrustration and doubt of the
establishment.
Quote unquote is justifiedbecause clearly we're living in
a system that has not served theneeds of all, all, all its
people underneath it, and so alot of these people were.
I mean, there were some whowere successful.
There's others who seemed alittle down now, like the

(23:06):
wrestler, like the failedwrestler, and I think the guy
who gives himself this classroomshots, who just wanted to have
a family Right.

Ozzie (23:14):
And he, he breaks my heart.
This is a guy who.
This is where I got mad.
I thought I thought this iswhere you were going.
There are charlatans who knowthat they are lying to these
people who are otherwise wouldbe.

Kristian (23:32):
You know, wonderful neighbors in some cases, and,
and you know the you know caperscall them normies, useful
idiots in the sense.

Ozzie (23:42):
Oh yeah, but I'm talking about, like Fox News and OAN,
and the politicians like JoshHawley and Ted Cruz, who are
smart enough because they wentto the Ivy League schools that
they were To know the impactthat they're making and to still
do it Like there is.
There is a real anger anddisgust that I have for people

(24:03):
who willingly manipulateOtherwise people who could, you
know, be really productivemembers of society if we just
structured it in a way that wasmore pro-social.
But instead we want to animatethe sense of entitlement and you
know a lot of a lot of thepeople who watch Fox News feel
angry because something thatthey expected isn't the way.

(24:25):
But if they take like they'vedone studies on this where they
take somebody and they not paythem to watch CNN for a month
instead of Fox News, so many oftheir emotional, the anger and
the oldest things that thatthey're manifesting dies down.
They have to have better mentalhealth and their views on
things change, it's like, butthen they go back to it because

(24:46):
there's something about itthat's really satisfying,
because it says we're a team andwe have a common enemy and
together we're going to finallycome overcome.

Kristian (24:54):
And beautifully said.
And these people are the oneswho ended up serving time, who
had disruptions in their livesloss of careers, broken
relationship but the peoplebehind them that were kind of
indirectly encouraging them todo what they did.
Manipulating them or, you know,mostly got off scot-free or are

(25:15):
you being aimless or faceless?
or they control things throughthem.
But they're kind of far removedfrom the, from the direct
consequences that these peoplefaced for doing the things that
they did.
And I think that's where moretime I wish was spent in terms
of all this discussion aroundthe January 6th, like, okay,
clearly, people who broke in andassaulted officers and caused,

(25:39):
you know, destroyed, you knowgovernment property should be
held to account.
But what about the people whofomented their, their just
delirium and their and broughtthem to rage to do the things
that they did?
Like are they being heldaccountable?
And sure, trump is.
Obviously there's a lot oflegal action being taken against
him on this, but there's somany other enablers around him

(26:01):
that, I mean, are they are we?
Has that net been cast wideenough to get all these people
right?
And I'm thinking of, like theRoger Stones, the Alex Jones is,
to a certain extent, the SteveBannon's and you know, the Mark
Meadows, even you know formerSpeaker McCarthy right, they all
have a hand in it.
And even the citizen, many ofthe politicians who are still
serving, who are continuing toperpetuate this lie of the

(26:24):
stolen election.
But again here's the thingstolen election.
Here's the partial truth.
You know George Carlin had thisgreat speech on Bill Marne when
he's talking about.
Our sense of freedom is anillusion.
The people that we are are thatare presented before us in
terms of like hey, choose thisperson or that person to be
elected leader, like that's kindof handpicked already, like

(26:45):
it's not.
Like you know, he brings toquestion like do we really have
choice?
And the people that we want tochoose.
You know, we're in the city,we're living in the city.
This is just how it is, and youknow this is just makes things
spicier.
It's okay.
We've got the porous asbestos,we've got the cockroaches, we've
got the burrow leaves, we'vegot the echo of the garage, and

(27:08):
this we're fighting.
This is, you know, when we'remillionaires off our podcast in
10 years we'll think back tothis moment, this moment of the
disrepair that currentlysurrounds us.

Ozzie (27:21):
Okay, why it matters.

Kristian (27:22):
This is a quote that I chose to share for the
insurrectionist next door, whichis and Alexander Pelosi said
this these are American citizenswho took misdemeanors and
became the people who will bevoting in the next election.
We need to talk to them, we needto listen to them, we need to
have a conversation, because wetalked about how divided the
country is and we want to tryand heal.

(27:42):
And I'm going to connect to mypoint that I wanted to make
about why it matters, which is,you know, currently this
environment of uncheckedpartisan politics and deepening
social divisions inevitably leadto an escalation of violence,
and I really would like to avoidthat.
And I appreciate thisdocumentary in the sense that

(28:03):
you could, you saw the growth inher and that she really did
make an effort to have toportray these people as not just
these kind of two dimensional,simplistic, you know, rapid maga
supporters, but rather, hey,you know, these people ended up
bleeding and doing what they didbecause of, because of reasons
that were either they weremanufactured or was was

(28:25):
something they felt they had toturn to because of the
desperation or the frustrationthat was already going on in
their lives as a result of thetype of system that they were
living in or the types ofconditions and circumstances
that brought them to this levelof frustration.
So, and there's more to be todiscuss on that point and to
explore on that point, I don'tthink even her documentary went

(28:45):
as deep as it could have.
But I think, unless we havethose conversations, things are
just going to continue on thispath of just partisanship, which
I don't think is going to endwell for anyone.

Ozzie (28:55):
I hear that I hear what you're saying.
Yeah, that makes sense myconcern with it is do you feel
there is effort that needs to beincreased in terms of
humanizing the other side?
Because there's a part of methat says like I love what she
did in this documentary, becauseI think it's so necessary for
us to realize that it is quite abroad cross section of humanity

(29:17):
that did that, and there was alot of different motivations and
some of them were reallynefarious and others were people
caught up in a mass hysteriaevent and others were just
people just trying to be a partof community or just fully
delusional.
But we nearly lost ourdemocracy Absolutely.

Kristian (29:35):
Oh yeah.

Ozzie (29:36):
For the first time we didn't have a peaceful
transition of power and to methat is a grave offense and I
feel like it's shocking how fewpeople really understand the
gravity of what that effort wasand who the people who were.
Steve Bennett talked about itahead of time.
He said if he's winning he'sgoing to say, call it over, and

(29:57):
if he's losing he's going to saythey were cheated and no matter
what, we're going to try tocreate chaos because he's not
leaving.
Like he's quoted as saying thatbeforehand, because he was
talking about the plans ahead oftime with Trump.
They lost 64 cases in court.
We did.
They didn't even say fraud wascommitted because they knew they
couldn't use that argument,because in court you can't just

(30:19):
say shit like you can to themedia.

Kristian (30:22):
And yet, despite all of the body of evidence that has
come out and continues to comeout, they're spanking.

Ozzie (30:28):
Despite the fact that the people went to jail for him and
came back out, and many of thepeople on the documentary still
believe in the big lie, becauseit is easier to fool a man than
to convince him that he's beenfooled.
Our ego just becomes too muchof a role.

Kristian (30:46):
Well, and our identities get wrapped up around
a particular belief system.
And to admit to oneself thatmaybe this path that I went down
turns out to be false is apsychic shock to many people
that they just simply can't bearbecause it means abdicating.

Ozzie (30:59):
You're going to hear a jail?
Yeah, you can have those quietmoments where you're like yo,
what?

Kristian (31:04):
the, if anything, that empowers them, because now they
fail.
Alma Mater, I suffered, Isacrificed for my cause, so that
in fact actually invigoratesthem.
But I think to your question,this speaks to just how
fragmented and siloed we are interms of how we consume news,
because while you and I are moreinformed about Humble brag.

(31:29):
You know all of the okay.
We obviously expose ourselvesto a network of news and a set
of information that otherssimply don't, or is presented to
them in a negative light, oreither glossed over or just
presented in the context of oh,look at what this site believes
and how stupid they are, or they, you know they've been led down

(31:51):
this rabbit hole, but in factwe're the ones who have the
truth.
And you know, I mean, at theend of the cable news is has
veered toward this kind of kindof sensationalist personality,
fear driven type of, I guess,infotainment, and there's no
attempt really to have aconversation, to have a debate,
to present the other side.

Ozzie (32:13):
I remember Hannity and Combs.

Kristian (32:14):
Yeah, I mean that was.
Are you looking back on that?
I mean, that was almost on her,Although I will say this
there's that one woman, Jessica,on the five for Fox News.

Ozzie (32:22):
She's always torturing those dudes.

Kristian (32:24):
However, I am starting to see evidence of greater
conversation.
We're not fully there yet, but,for example, like Pierce Morgan
, are you like oh?
It's an interesting person.

Ozzie (32:35):
I understand for Pierce Morgan.
It's not that I stand for him.

Kristian (32:38):
But I, but I at least, I appreciate that he is
actually trying to bring onguests that he, you know,
doesn't agree with.

Ozzie (32:44):
Yeah.

Kristian (32:45):
And he gives them a platform to speak and he does
engage them.
Not I'm just going to talk allover you, but it actually has a
back and forth, whereas maybe insome other cable news shows
it's really just hey, we'regoing to bring on this other
person, but we're really justbringing on to just kind of part
of my language, just show themyou know, and not allow them to
really respond or to defendthemselves or to maybe even
offer a counterpoint that thenthe interviewer has to kind of

(33:08):
defend.
Right, it's always no, we'regoing to bring you on but we're
going to do everything possibleto make you look the fool.
So interesting points here.
Let's move into how theseconnect.
What are the connections herebetween these two topics?
Again, we could do.

Ozzie (33:24):
Well, sum up your position or your thesis on the
Naledes.

Kristian (33:27):
Sure, so to me.
This is my why it matters forthe Naledes.
It suggests a much longerhistorical process of competing
human evolution.
I think there's.
The Naledes is just onediscovery, but I know first.
I feel almost certain thatthere are other branches that
exhibited interesting behaviorsthat we've yet to discover,

(33:49):
because the past, unfortunately,is limited to what our
cryologists are able to find.
And I think you know, everyyear it's like they discover
something brand new thatrewrites our human evolutionary
history.
So I'm excited for that.
I think there's so much more wedon't even know what's the
significance of that.

Ozzie (34:05):
Why does it matter that it's 250 to 337,000 years?

Kristian (34:10):
Because I think it's a tantalizing indicator that our
society, societal constructs areindeed temporary and the need
for reinvention is not onlynecessary but very much possible
, because it, these older groups, proved to us that there were
civilizations.
I'm going a little too far hereyeah civilizations A little too

(34:33):
much, but there were ways ofliving that may have been better
or may have been worse, butwe're different.

Ozzie (34:39):
Worse, they were worse.
I don't want to live in a cave.

Kristian (34:43):
Okay, but as an aliety .
That's all you knew and youmade the best of it.

Ozzie (34:48):
And at that point.

Kristian (34:48):
you evolved to manage and you know handle those kinds
of environmental situations.
I mean, you know, are we reallythat much superior?

Ozzie (34:57):
Yes, In certain ways right.

Kristian (34:58):
Yes, of course, All right, even with the in the
light of wars and the diseasesand environmental destruction
we're.
We're about to unleash uponourselves the economic
constraints and pressures andstresses that we have to
experience.
I mean our, our lives trulythat much less stressful than
say well that's not the alietyexperience.

Ozzie (35:19):
We don't know about the stresses.
I can tell you that I'm notworried about a lion eating me.
That's a.
That's a pretty cool stress Idon't have to worry about, like
oh shoot, I hope I buried my caraccident.

Kristian (35:31):
You can have it and be in a plane crash.
You can consume a product thatpoisons you slowly over time.

Ozzie (35:37):
I can fly in a plane.
How about that?

Kristian (35:40):
Or about the spestos that's porous to descending upon
us.

Ozzie (35:43):
That's going to be a bad choice.
That's not necessary In likefive years.
Okay, what happened to 20 years?
And that was five years.

Kristian (35:51):
This timeline is.
I mean the longer we spend here.
I'm not, I'm saying I don'tknow, I don't know.

Ozzie (35:57):
But no, I think okay.

Kristian (35:57):
The strongest point is that I'm just.
I just think it just opens thedoor to all kinds of
possibilities that we canimagine for ourselves or any
group can imagine for itself,and I think I just hope that.
I think the key takeaway for mehere is, whatever constructs
we've built up for ourselves,all the pros and all the cons,
that we can continue pushingourselves forward, hopefully in

(36:18):
a way that will continue tomaximize the pros, minimize the
con.

Ozzie (36:23):
I think it's the idea that if they had a belief that
it was necessary to bury theirloved no-transcript, narrowly
scooped through this largecrevasse you know that was steep
and then they buried them, theygave them a tool to hold on to.

(36:44):
You think that there'ssomething that they believe
about an afterlife, or at leasta practice of love, and I think
it's one of those.
So it's the practice of lovingsomebody that was very close to
you, or a belief in an afterlife, or both.
And if it's a belief in anafterlife and something that
primitive, and if we come tofind that each you know, homo

(37:07):
erectus maybe had a practicelike that, if we find out the
neanderthals, practice like thatthe genosophans had a practice
like that, then it suggestsmaybe humanity, the thing that
binds us together, isn't tools,isn't communication, but in a
belief in a higher power of somesort.

(37:28):
And that's weird to me becauseI'm agnostic, you know.
So I'm hearing that argumentgoing like if that was always
there, then maybe that was Godputting into it like, hey, just
know that there's somethingbeyond you.
Think about me, and that's whyevery generation of, or every
genus know everything speakswithin our genius.
How do you say it?

(37:48):
Sapiens erectus, all that.
That's why they all have thesereligious practices.
That would be fascinating to meif to find that out.

Kristian (37:56):
Or it's this kind of deep rooted instinct or
curiosity, becauseanthropologists have studied
this phenomenon of well.
Why is it well?
What sparks religiosity ordisbelief in the higher power?
And some theories suggest thatit's because when you dream,
sometimes you dream about theceased one you know past loved

(38:19):
ones and so you know when you'rea Naledi, and they see in their
dreams their loved ones thathave passed, suddenly materials
before them and speaking andhaving a scene and reading, or
whatever it is that they dreamabout, it seems to suggest they
to them.
It's almost like supernatural,right?
So?

Ozzie (38:37):
you think it's based on dream.
That is an interesting theoryyeah, yeah.
Oh, that's wild.

Kristian (38:42):
It's a really interesting, fascinating theory,
and I wish I remember whooriginally pioneered it.

Ozzie (38:47):
Pretend it's yours.

Kristian (38:48):
Pointed, but to me like yeah, because even animals
dream they've had proven that.
And so to them like, oh my god,like suddenly I'm seeing this
person that was I know haspassed, and now I'm seeing them
in my mind.

Ozzie (39:02):
Have you read Sapiens?
Okay, remember his argument forwhy religiosity was created is
basically mythmaking, was a wayto corral humanity.

Kristian (39:10):
The story right, the narrative.
It's just a way to galvanizepeople.

Ozzie (39:13):
It's not even you don't think you can put an aphorius
undertone to it.
It's just like how do youcompel masses of individuals
towards certain goals?
Yeah, one of the ways isthrough mythmaking.

Kristian (39:24):
And then they have that collective belief which is
what we see withinsurrectionists to there is the
myth being made of Trump andwhat that means, and they'll say
they're not in the cold, butthen they have like
paraphernalia, a tool ofmotivation, it's a tool of
control, but I think, but Ithink that that's a good,
important point, but I thinkthose are corruptions and
perversions of something moresmaller scale, of just us, you

(39:48):
know, are some, something whereour brains seems, you know,
wants to suggest this kind ofafterlife, the supernatural
realm, this, this more than well, isn't it?

Ozzie (39:57):
by an art of art, our preternatural desire for
survival.
Like we're survivalists at theultimate.
So how do you?
How do you continue surviving?
You believe that your life goeson even after your body does
not?
It's just the logical end pointof a species that conceive of

(40:19):
its end and also does not wantto accept it.

Kristian (40:23):
It's also a coping mechanism, because when you see
loved ones around, you pass yeahit's the thought of wow,
someday I'm going to cease toexist is really.
I mean, it's a difficult thingto wrap your head around.

Ozzie (40:37):
Yeah except.

Kristian (40:38):
And so, oh, there's something more beyond that gives
you a little bit of peace inthat.
Well, everything I've done inmy lifetime, all the connections
and all the relationships Iforge, and all the memories and
meanings that I've I shared,it's not just going to disappear
.
It has a place, it's going tocontinue on.
My legacy is pervert, preserve,not only preserved, but it's

(40:59):
going to legacy continue to, youknow, manifest in other realms
or other, you know, I don't knowexperiential pathways.
Okay, let's go.
I do want to transition to howthey connect.
So to me it's really just abusting of stereotypes because,
you know, the Naledi strengthensthe idea that complex emotion

(41:21):
and behavior are not the solepurview of homo sapiens that
actually exist in earlierversions of our evolutionary
species, but also in animals,and more we learn about animal
behavior and they're the factthat they have languages and
they can use tools and theyexhibit complex emotion.
It's kind of deepening our youknow, we share more with animals

(41:43):
than there may be differencesand then also deepens our
understanding of ideas andevents that we often simplify or
ignore.
In the case of theinsurrectionist next door, which
is, you know, these are peoplewho have been coerced, have been
manipulated, have been used astools, who have been brought to
a moment of despair.

(42:04):
So the question, rather, shouldbe not so much who are these
idiots, why they do what they do, but rather what are the
conditions that inspire them todo what they did?
Who are the players behind them?
What is it about their livesthat made them feel so
disconnected or so disenchantedor so powerless that they have
to embrace this radical idea ofelection lie?
And then again, the partialtruths right that you know

(42:26):
clearly most people are notfully in control of their lives.
They don't have, you know, pullall the relievers of power, and
so there is a genuinedisenchantment that conspiracy
theories feed off of but thenare coopted by those in power
who want to kind of use andmanipulate these kind of
feelings for their own personalends and authoritarian aims.

(42:49):
So that's kind of theconnections I kind of draw from
the both I hear that.

Ozzie (42:53):
Yeah, that's well thought out.
I was thinking about theconnection being that the
willingness to sacrifice forcommunity members or loved ones.
I don't want to romanticize theinsurrectionists too much, I'm
just an empathetic sucker.
I guess you know when that onecountry guy who spent time in

(43:14):
jail was at the bar and he'ssinging that song, the lost
cause, and you just, all of hisheart is in it.

Kristian (43:20):
That was a great scene .
Yeah, that was a fantastic.
That really speaks to howstrongly they feel about.

Ozzie (43:27):
Well, he in particular.
That's his story about likefeeling like a loser, but not
like society has put him in aposition of what a loser is.
Like he said I've dropped outin ninth grade but I'm not
stupid.
I know how to build things.

Kristian (43:38):
I built this truck, you know he has and that's legit
.
Yeah, absolutely, he's a man ofhis hands.
Yeah.

Ozzie (43:42):
Yeah, he's got pride in a lot of that stuff, it's just
and as he should, as he should.
So, anyway, I don't want toromanticize these people,
because I still think thatthere's a part of me that's
furious that they haven'tlearned a lesson, because
they're doubling down but maybethey're going to end up being
correct and where the fools no.

(44:04):
The preponderance of evidence isoverwhelming, Like this is.
This is not always a lastsecond finish, it's clear, but
they love being a part of thecommunity.
You know they felt alienatedfor so long, all of them that
seem to be universality amongstthem and to finally have

(44:25):
something that they, you know, Ithink that's a really powerful
human.

Kristian (44:30):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah , it's like one of our community
through that.

Ozzie (44:33):
Yeah, and the way you sacrifice for community and you
go to jail and you come back butyou still want to belong to it.
You know you, you did it foryour community.
Tattoo proud boys on yourforehead.
You go down into a weird cavethat's difficult to get to and
you bury the people that youlove in a way that you're
willing to make that sacrificefor.
So that's what.

Kristian (44:51):
I saw as a connecting point.
No, I love that.

Ozzie (44:53):
And then I also wanted to tie it in with that.
Remember that.
Fourth, I want to be pedanticfor a second.
Remember that Fahrenheit 451quote where he says I'd rather
walk in darkness with mybrothers than to end the light
alone.
Like for a lot of the peoplewho cannot stand the fact that
they may have been fooled andthey're doubling down on their
Trump support or idea of thestolen election, what if I?

(45:14):
He said, what am I going to do?
Become a liberal?
now he's still watching OANafterwards after eight months of
jail because he's like I made abatch of choices in terms of
going in there, but that doesn'tmean I don't believe.
What I believe and my beliefsystem creates a community for
me.

Kristian (45:27):
That I otherwise wouldn't have.

Ozzie (45:28):
I just meet my cats or whatever.
Maybe I really think peopleneed to watch this.
It's, it's really necessary.
I wish there were moreopportunities for the right to
look at the left.
The left is constantly creatinga.
Let's humanize the person thatwe have faults with so that we
can understand them better, sothat we can better serve them,

(45:49):
so we disagree with that.

Kristian (45:51):
Where's the?

Ozzie (45:51):
right doing that.
I'm the left when?
Who's the Nancy Pelosi'sdaughter?
I don't remember her real name,Alexandra.

Kristian (45:57):
Alexandra.

Ozzie (45:57):
Sorry.
Where's Alex Alexander Pelosifrom the right who's
legitimately trying to hearpeople that they fundamentally
disagree?
The people had songs sayingfuck Nancy Pelosi.
Other people were talking aboutlike in their blogs how they
want to attack her and she'sgoing there as her daughter to
try to make peace with them orsend an olive branch.

(46:19):
I wish we had more of that fromboth sides, but I never see
that, all from the right to theleft.
Tell me of a counter.
I'd love to be wrong.

Kristian (46:26):
That's an interesting point To me.
I feel the left.

Ozzie (46:29):
Maybe Sean Hannity talking to Gavin Newsom.

Kristian (46:32):
I think so, or maybe that's the closest we can come.
Hannity's shifting his tone abit.
Maybe again Piers Morganshifting his tone, maybe a bit,
but I think the Israel Palestinestuff right.
I will say that the reason theright is probably has made
Hypothetically exhibit less ofthat, is because the left so
Will sifferously andpersistently malign them for so

(46:54):
long.
Because I'll say, if you rollback the time five, four or five
years, all you ever heard fromthe left, hold on, all you ever
heard from the left is right tofascist bushes at fascist this,
that you know that kind of like,that kind of work, that
hyperperberately and well bushstarted a war in a country that
had nothing to do with it.
I don't want to know like.

Ozzie (47:15):
Why did we attack poor sleep, little bush?
He deserved all the vitriol.

Kristian (47:19):
That he got really.
You know he wasn't openly thisplace in Iraq.

Ozzie (47:23):
He's hundreds of thousands of them dead,
thousands of Americans thatwarrant.
I mean so like he's notsympathetic at all to me.

Kristian (47:30):
Similarly sure, but hold on.
He wasn't openly Talking aboutbecoming addicted, or on day one
right like he's.
He never used that kind oflanguage like he as as as as
horrific things, as he didpolicy wise, he operated under
the assumption that he was doinggood.

Ozzie (47:45):
I think we were too hard on Mitt Romney.
He was not as.

Kristian (47:53):
I think this that does bring up a good conversation
for another episode, but I thinkwe need more of what Alexander
policy has done from both sidesand you know we definitely.
It's time to Again.
I'm worried about that, thecontinuation of this unchecked
partisan politics.
I'm worried about deepeningsocial divisions.
I don't want it to end up in aviolent collapse because, at the

(48:14):
end of the day, both sides lose.
Both sides are gonna be worseoff for it.
It's gonna affect everyone andthe only people who's gonna
benefit are the, the new crop ofleaders that will emerge to
take advantage of our divisionsFor their own gain, and in the
end, we're just gonna be leftwith you sound like that new
Julia Roberts Mahershala Alimovie.

Ozzie (48:36):
Hmm, have you seen it?
No, I have not it's like at theend of the world or something
like that.

Kristian (48:41):
Oh, check it out, it's on Netflix, though.
Three closing words, threewords to pull everything
together here.
One of mine is, I think, wonderwhat's?

Ozzie (48:50):
what's the wonder about?

Kristian (48:52):
Wonder.
Obviously the naledi.
In terms of what you know, theywere capable of dating back
335,000 years, to me wonderingthat's insurrectionist next door
.
What is it that drives thesepeople to believe what they did?
And no, actually, no, I takethat back Probably wonders.
It doesn't really connect both.

(49:13):
Please take over here.

Ozzie (49:15):
I got, I got to that, come jump out, and I talked
about them already love andsacrifice.

Kristian (49:20):
They love and sacrifice.

Ozzie (49:21):
I like direction.
Is it there I?

Kristian (49:22):
would put that there right.
I love sacrifice community.

Ozzie (49:27):
Yeah, I think these are great forces.

Kristian (49:29):
I think there's community in both sides.
I think you're right.
I think the power to want to,the temptation to feel that
sense of community is sopowerful that it will Make you
believe in things that arecompletely outrageous.
And in the case of the naledi,obviously you know they did the
they, as you said, they putthemselves through this ordeal
of burying their dad becausethat's what they felt in part.

(49:50):
They're community needed toelevate it to this kind of, to
kind of honor the lives of thosethat they Once lived with.

Ozzie (49:59):
So all right, so.

Kristian (50:01):
Excellent.
Any final thoughts?

Ozzie (50:04):
No, voltaire said.
Oh boy, all right, I'll get aman to believe in absurdities
and you can get him to commitatrocities, and there were
atrocities committed on January6th.
I want to be clear about that.
But I also want to just saythat those people are complex
and Whatever empathy you canlend to them and humanity, I

(50:27):
think we'll take America in abetter Direction, because, after
all, we are all of the samegenus and we've had certain
practices that they hundreds ofthousands of years, and those
things that bind us are so muchgreater than those that divide
us.
So I want us to heal from this.
I don't think we're doing that,but hopefully Fast enough

(50:52):
because a lot of people stillneed to be prosecuted.
Like he's gonna be 148 milliondollars.

Kristian (50:59):
But I'm hoping for.

Ozzie (51:00):
Alexander Pelosi type movements, because we do all
belong to the same genus.

Kristian (51:05):
Yeah, I think more conversation needs to be had and
I think we need to revisit howwe present information is
currently Working against us.
I think social media is broken.
I think a cable news shows arepoison operating under Not the
best, not the best, not for thebest, intentions of, like you

(51:25):
said, for being a healer to evenbetter understand ourselves.
All right listeners.
Thank you for joining us.
I'll, ozzy.
I hope there's more of this.

Ozzie (51:33):
I let me close with this Christian I've missed you so
much and this has been reallylovely.
I've been looking forward tothis conversation, because it's
just an interesting fellow thatI've always enjoyed talking to,
so getting to Be here with youtoday, it's been something I've
been longing for for a while,and it's actually underwhelming.
I thought it was gonna bebetter, so I'm pretty
disappointed.
I need you to pick your game upfor next time.

(51:55):
All right, buddy?
No, I love you.
I'm so glad to be here,beautiful.

Kristian (51:58):
We say this I miss the moths and the creepy car.
That's pretty cool.
All right, everyone.