August 23, 2023 • 35 mins
Welcome to Season 4 of the Returning to Joy Podcast! This week we are kicking off a new series, Sabbath Stories: Embracing Rest in a Restless World. Each episode will unpack the sacred call to rest and renewal, as well as a practical practice to help you integrate these rest rhythms into your life.
This episode we sit down with Rosalind Hervey - a friend, mentor, and a spiritual mother to many in our community. She will help us unpack what it means to embrace our identity as children of God, and the ways that God can meet us in seasons of fear, confusion or distress. She will also share some practices that can help open our hearts to the ways God may want to shape our perspective on the world and how we engage it.
New episodes on Wednesdays! Bi-weekly!
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Music by AG (Affirming Grace) @agmusic4god
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(09:52:09):
Welcome to the return to joypodcast. I'm your host,
Gabrielle Michel Leonard. Herewe're leading people to
cultivate joy throughstorytelling. We hope listening
will reveal pathways tounlocking the healing power of
connection so that you can seeyour relationships and the world
around you transformed fromfractured into flourishing.
(09:52:31):
What's up Beloved's? I amthrilled to be back with you for
another season. What is itseason four. And if you've been
following on social media or getthe newsletters that we send out
monthly, then you know that whatwe're unpacking in this series
is the series title, if youwill, is going to be called
Sabbath stories embracing restin a restless world cannot wait
(09:52:56):
to go through that with you.
It's going to be so good. ButI'm actually decided to start
this season off with a interviewI did with Rosalind Harvey,
actually earlier this year.
Rosalind is a friend and a and amentor. And she has been through
(09:53:17):
some intense trauma and loss,but she's going to actually talk
about how it helped reveal hertrue identity. We're gonna get
into the power of cultivatingthe non anxious presence of
Christ in our lives. And thegift that is truly to the
community around us and the inthe people that God has called
and sent us to. Can't wait foryou to listen to it some
(09:53:38):
stepping back and go ahead andhead and plan that episode. Roz,
I am very much so glad to haveyou here. I met Roz a Rosalyn
Harvey. Oh, man, I think what?
Two I met you in 2019. Yeah, Imade you in 2019. Because I was
starting to do work with anorganization here in San Antonio
(09:54:01):
called one. And Roz. I mean, sheshe just very much is a mother,
a mentor, a friend, a, afaithful, compassionate witness
to Christ. She's a faithful,compassionate human. I am very
much so excited for you to justshare yourself with us. I was
(09:54:28):
just telling Roz. We werepraying for this time that man,
I don't think this is going tobe about you imparting like
giving all the right words andimparting knowledge. But you
being yourself. That is howshe's helped me recover. And I
think you, you do that, if she'sdone then brilliant ways of just
(09:54:51):
being present. And as a result,people mature around her, and
people heal, and people recover.
And they act more likethemselves. And so, Roslyn, you
you come with a lot of wisdom.
And so I we're all in for a bigtreat in this conversation.
(09:55:12):
Thank you so much for beinghere. Rozlyn.
Oh, it's my pleasure.
Absolutely. I was just sittinghere thinking you may have only
known Gabrielle for years. Itjust seems like a long time.
That's it just so funny. Yeah.
That it hasn't been but I feelslike it has been a long time.
(09:55:33):
You know, a pandemic was inthere, too. Yep. pandemic, all
the craziness. So that that'lldo it. Yeah, that'll do it. Or
Aslan, you surely radiate peace.
That is that is for certain. Andso often, I've recovered from
feelings, like I said, ofoverwhelm, and emotional
distress just by being in yourpresence. Can you share with us
(09:55:54):
your personal journey, and howyou came to embody? What I've
heard, I first heard come fromyour lips, the non anxious
presence of Christ.
Yeah, well, first of all, thankyou for those kind words that
are just so kind. I I have, Iguess, grown over the last 35
(09:56:24):
years in ways that I probablywouldn't have anticipated from
the first 30 years of my life. Ithink probably I went through
some real crisis times. When Iwas around 35. I had the death
of a child, my husband left mefor another woman and he was a
(09:56:48):
pastor and it was justdifficult. I had another little
child and so I had a little girland I was a single parent and
found myself in those two orthree years just desperate for
for help, basically, and I thinkit did sort of boiled down to
(09:57:09):
identity, because I think I hadthought that my identity was
pretty much wrapped up in beinga pastor's wife and taking care
of him. So he could take care ofthe Church, which was something
I actually learned in my familyof origin. My dad was a pastor.
(09:57:32):
And so we had that thing goingon in our family too. So. But
once that what I now look at asmy faux identity was removed is
kind of like, okay, well,what's, what remains what's
(09:57:55):
there. And so, the Holy Spiritjust showed up a lot. Jesus
showed up a lot. Just respondingto my desperate prayers, of how
do I navigate this time as asingle mom having to find a job
(09:58:16):
a month, all that you have to doto raise a child. And so Jesus
was just so kind to me. And theHoly Spirit was a sense of being
so comforted and cared for. Andthat sort of attitude, on their
(09:58:45):
part toward me, really, justsort of tar started to infuse
the way I treated other people.
That's good. So that's kind ofhow it all started. They always
approached me in such kind andloving ways, sometimes I would
just start crying because it wasso kind. So you know. And so
(09:59:06):
that was kind of how it started.
And, and went, and even afterthat really difficult season of
my life, and I, when I was justkind of making making it work,
and Jesus was helping me make itwork. I still had issues of
(09:59:30):
needing to be healed. And so Istumbled on to it. I've been
through lots of different kindsof healing stuff, but not a lot
of inner healing stuff. Andprobably around 1999, somewhere
in there, I learned aboutTheophostic prayer. And that's
when I started really openingmyself up to that kind of
(09:59:53):
healing from God. And then I'malso praying with other people
to have that, too. So he alwaysshows up in those prayer
appointments, which I've beendoing for the last 2025 years,
in very non anxious ways. And soyou figure, well, he's not
(10:00:16):
worried, you know, he's noturgent, and all those things
that we tend to kind of puttogether with difficult
circumstances. And so I learnedfrom him how he showed up.
That's good. That's good. Man. Ilove that Roz i, because so many
(10:00:37):
times when I've been in a spacewith you, and I'm coming in
front of you, and I'm dumping mystuff, and the things that are
going on. And then somehow, I'llcome out of that time with you,
whether it's been in a specificprayer appointment that you're
leading me through, or justsimply a conversation in
(10:01:00):
friendship. I walk out, I leavethat time with you. And when I'm
trying to tell someone elseabout it, I'm like, I don't know
what she said. I don't actuallyknow. Sometimes you do drop
these amazing nuggets of wisdomin there is something that I can
coin that I can a phrase that Irecognize or words that stuck
with me. But then there's othertimes when I go I don't know
(10:01:22):
what it was about being inRoss's presence just then. But
I'm okay. Everything's notsolved. The situation didn't
change. But I'm okay. And I lovewhat you spoke to have that part
of what's happening there. Andthere's a reason why I can't put
(10:01:43):
words to it is it's notsomething that you just studied
and learned. How do I be apeaceful person or what tools or
tricks do you use in inmentoring and counseling other
people being with them, but it'ssomething that you're mirroring.
(10:02:06):
By by walking in in fellowshipwith Christ you're mirroring,
because in the places where youwere in your deepest pain, where
you were overwhelmed, youactually experienced, comfort,
experienced, being listened towithout judgment, and saw that
model to you buy the HolySpirit. And I've heard someone
(10:02:30):
say before that we can't, in allof our training in any of the
training that we may go through,we still can only we can't take
people deeper than we've evergone. And so I love what you
spoke to about the prayer, theprayer appointments. Roz, I know
you're, you're not a licensedcounselor. But you are and you
(10:02:54):
are a mentor. You are and youare a mother with a unique
approach to helping others. Yournon judgmental, empathetic and
offer sincere grace. But how didthat develop? Would you go
deeper with us in that I knowyou've mentioned some of it
already in the things you'vemodeled, from what you've seen
how you've seen Christ's work bewith you. But what were some
(10:03:16):
other ways that you'vecultivated that in your life?
It's funny, I was thinking onthe way over here, it's a funny
thing, every now passes throughmy mind, the daughter that I had
first, my first daughter wasborn with some real serious
(10:03:36):
defects, physical defects. Andshe lived for six months in
intensive care and then died.
And it's an odd thing to think.
But really, before I had her, Ijust thought that I would not
(10:03:57):
have children for some reason orother. But oddly enough, you
know, I, I responded to thatsituations in ways that I didn't
know were in me. So it's kind oflike she brought out in me the
(10:04:19):
mother. And so it's it's, yeah,it's truthful to say that, that
probably one of the darkesthours of my life probably
brought out more of the real me.
Okay, yeah, you have to wake.
How How did that happen?
(10:04:41):
Well, you know, it's really odd,because I found myself
responding to her. You know,before you're a mom, you really
don't know what that is, youknow, you can kind of look at
your own mother and kind ofthink about it and kind of get
some pictures and ideas. Butonce a child shows up on the
(10:05:01):
scene, there are a whole lot ofthings that happen between
mother and baby that are notthat are pre verbal and
nonverbal. Yeah. And so thatsort of thing went on between
us. And I think she showed me astrong part of myself, you know,
it's kind of one of thosethings, where you think, Well, I
(10:05:23):
would never be able to fill inthe blank. And then all of a
sudden, you're in the situation.
And you find out well, yeah,I'm, I'm stepping up here. I'm
doing this. And so in a weirdkind of way. Um, you know, I
think that's, that's what sortof that part of me that got
(10:05:47):
awakened, is really the mother,the mentor, the elder, it's all
the same thing. And it's justhelping people and responding to
people who have need, be theyarticulated needs or be they pre
verbal or nonverbal? Because Ijust wait, it was awakened to
(10:06:12):
me. But also Jesus responded tomy need in the moment. And the
Holy Spirit responded to myneed. So kind of those two
things were really what we'rekind of the door to kind of
walking in that grace. Yeah. ofresponsiveness. It's a
(10:06:34):
responsive place, being amother. Do you
have a story from yourgranddaughters that could give
us a better picture into whatthat mothering response?
Like? Yeah. The thing that cameto mind was when my daughter and
son in law had their 10 yearanniversary, and my husband and
(10:06:58):
I went over and took care of thelittle girls while they went for
four or five days. And so thatwas like The first time the
little girls had been alone. Onewas like, I'm gonna say maybe a
little over a year. And theother one was about three or
(10:07:18):
four. So anyway, they werelittle, and so that we were a
little bit concerned about that.
And so one night, one of thelittle ones, the littlest one,
Imogen, was crying. So I poppedout of bed and went over and got
her out of her crib. And, youknow, I mean, I was just in
shock. First of all, how muchgoes on in a kid? By what what
(10:07:41):
she said. She said, that blackcar took mommy away. What we had
done is we had awaken them earlyin the morning, that their mom
and dad were supposed to leaveso they could wave at the Uber
to say goodbye. So they wouldn'tjust wake up and then we're
(10:08:04):
gone. We didn't, you know. So wehad done that. And so little did
I know her little mind had seenthis Black Guard come and her
mom get in it and be taken away.
So she was crying. And so I justcomforted her and I, I said, you
(10:08:26):
know? I said, Well, do you knowwhy they had to go in another
car? And so I sort of reasonedwith her a little bit and told
her we had to keep the other carin order to take her older
sister to school the next dayand things like that. So she
(10:08:47):
still looked upset. So I justsaid, well, would it be okay, if
we asked Jesus if everything'sgonna be okay, if everything's
all right, she kind of looked atme pretty doubtful, but she
nodded her head up and down. SoI just said a quick prayer. I
said, Jesus is everything okay?
She opened her eyes. She said,Yeah. And then I put her back
down in the crib, and she wentto sleep, and we didn't have any
(10:09:10):
other problems. And so I thinkjust knowing that Jesus is ready
and wants to help, and that he'svery close to children, really,
really matters. And we're allchildren of God. So even when
we're upset, and we don't evenhave words for it, we just have
(10:09:34):
funny words for it even Yeah,he's there. He wants to help.
He's, he's, he's ready andwaiting.
Now, I love that. Yeah. Well,Roz, like what practices, you
know, spiritual disciplines ortechniques have helped you
maintain a gracious andempathetic presence.
(10:09:59):
You know, when I thought aboutthat question, what kept coming
to mind was core values, andbeing able to honor and
cooperate with the way that Godmade me and the values that he
put in my heart, particularvalues. Okay. And I think maybe
(10:10:24):
some, I guess, the way I wasseeing them, was that my Yeah,
like, I would think of them asboundaries. But boundaries
aren't really the values. Like,for example, if I have a
boundary, to try and not talk totalk about somebody who's not in
the room with me, to otherpeople, that kind of thing, that
(10:10:47):
the value behind that is justwanting to share life, and, you
know, just be honest andtransparent in my relationships.
And so that's one of the ways itshows up. In other words, so I
think that that honoring, firstof all, articulating those
(10:11:11):
values took me a while.
I Yeah. Which even though I didnot know that you didn't think
you'd answer the question, andspeak to core values, which is
really interesting to me.
Well, I really came to anappreciation of core values
after I've read the book, churchunique, which is a book by will
(10:11:32):
man Seanie. And it's pretty,he's just pretty much a genius.
He's an engineer and a pastor.
And he put together a thingcalled a vision framework to
help churches understand theirunique thumbprint, their
identity. And so, but I reallyappreciated how much he helped
me get to kind of, kind of howdo you get to that place of
(10:11:56):
identifying, oh, this is who Iam, you know? And I think
because I have sort of I candefault to self judgment pretty
Fast and pretty easily. It'shelped me to really know what's
behind something. So if I havean inclination away from
(10:12:17):
something, rather than judge it,and say, Well, you know, why
can't I? Why don't I whatever,however, I'm falling short,
wondering a little bit like,Huh, I wonder what if there's
some sort of core value underthere that might be being
activated? You know. But hehelped me to ask a lot of
(10:12:43):
questions about it. And he, hehas a way with words, and it
just helped me so much. I'llgive you some examples of my
core values I, I just reallybelieve, and a thing that I call
and I coined, I have never seenit anywhere else, but
(10:13:05):
sustainably sacrificial acts.
And so to me, is having enoughjoy for the journey. And I think
that we in the end, especiallyin the Western Hemisphere, and
our app not to have enough joyto enjoy strength, you know,
(10:13:27):
that that energy that God givesus through our relationships, to
be able to do things, and so wekind of push ourselves beyond
what we should maybe, yeah, sothat's perhaps that's one of
them. The other one is that I,I, I really value working on
teams in mutually satisfyingrelationships. Yeah, so that's a
(10:13:52):
huge value to me. And that'skind of, that's kind of how I'll
show up and do things I want toteam up with people. You know, I
also, I really love a desiredriven motivation. I've heard
you talk about this. That'ssuper important to me, that we,
(10:14:17):
rather than having a shoulds andoughts and all that other stuff
to really discover what it isGod put in us, that He is, you
know, he's trying to, tomanifest in the world through
us, through our, through thedesires he put in us. So that's
(10:14:37):
another one. And I thinkprobably I was gonna say, I have
a high value for forgiveness,both giving and receiving
keeping short accounts, isimportant to me. So those are
some examples. But I find thatmy life is a lot more peaceful
when I'm cooperating with thatway that I'm designed. As
(10:15:01):
opposed to trying to meetsomebody else's expectation, or
even my own, you know, like, Ishould want to do this, I should
want to do that rather to look alittle bit deeper and wonder
what's going on here. WhereasI'm going
to propose that you add anothervalue to your list. Okay.
(10:15:22):
There's something I recognize inyou. And I hear it even in the
way that you're responding rightnow. See, wonder?
Yeah, that's my flow. Yeah,yeah. There is this basically
how I flow?
There. Is this all in wonderthat I think that's I see that
as the driver that makes youlean in to people is there's not
(10:15:45):
this, Oh, I see them, I alreadyknow them. There's actually more
so this. I actually wonder, Iwonder what's going on? I wonder
what their need is? I wonder whyI'm thinking I think that way
about that, or why they'rethinking that way. And that it's
it's filled with this, like notit's a non judgmental approach
(10:16:09):
that is filled with a whole lotof grace. And we had a
conversation about this a whileback, but it's not this
curiosity for our own sakethat's like, that's devoid of
love. Because curiosity withoutlove is actually abusive. Right?
And it's, and it's, it'smanipulate me manipulative. But
(10:16:31):
there is this very much so loveinfused wonder and awe in, hey,
this is an image better thanbefore me that I'm sitting with
that I'm seeing, even if I don'tagree with you, and I don't
understand, even if I'm angrywith even if they're gay, even
if I don't understand, but I'mleaning it. And so I I just I
(10:16:51):
very much have seen that I'vebenefited from it.
What they do, for sure, forsure.
Well, Ross, something that youhave mentioned in the time that
I've known you quite a bit isthis this word attunement, that
if people have They are in thecounseling world or they've been
to counseling a lot. They mayhave heard that term before. But
(10:17:14):
there also may be others outthere who go, what is the word
attunement? So can you help usunderstand? Like, what is
attunement? And how can it helppeople connect to one another?
And heal?
Yeah, well, you know, I thinkthe easiest way to talk about it
is like, at the very beginning,when you're a little baby with a
(10:17:35):
with your mother, babies byvirtue of the fact that they're
just learning about the world,they don't really even
understand themselves as to beseparate almost, well, about
around 18 months start having,you know, difficult emotions
like fear, or distress, thosesorts of things. And the way
(10:18:02):
that God's built into life isfor the mom to be able to go and
attune to the baby. So thatwould look like the the mom even
actually mimicking the distresson her face that the baby's
feeling. So that does a coupleof things, the baby doesn't feel
alone. It's not a mismatch, youknow what I'm saying? Yeah, but
(10:18:28):
also, the mom is a presents withthe baby, and just gradually,
gently brings the baby back toJoy. By whatever it is, that has
happened, if there's a big mess,helping to clean up the mess or
to whatever it is, the mom cankind of mediate the situation by
(10:18:53):
gently working with the babytill the baby's back to Joy, you
know, cleaned up or comforted orwhatever. And basically, that
actually cuts a neural pathwayin their brain, from that area
of the brain that's distressedback to the joy Center, which is
(10:19:14):
the prefrontal cortex and thefront of the brain. So, and lots
and lots of practice like that.
That type of attunement, wheresomeone sees me, someone
understands me, and someone canhelp me, you know, that sort of
thing creates a resilientpersonality in that baby.
(10:19:37):
There's a lot of, I think thehard part is that it's pre
verbal and nonverbal at thatcase, because the baby so
little, the baby doesn't knowlanguage, you know. And so there
is a great deal of frustrationtill you get the baby old enough
to where that you cancommunicate with that baby. I
was really blessed that Imogenhad words to say, the blank card
(10:20:00):
took mommy away. Yeah, yeah. Youknow, because otherwise, she's
crying. And I don't know why.
Right. Yeah. So but the goodthing is, and that you and I
both know, is even when we don'thave the words, Jesus knows. He
does know. And so just knowingthat he'll be there, and he'll
(10:20:21):
show up. And we can just invitehim to do what he does. You
know, that's, that's really,that's a treasure, you know,
man, that's so good, Rhys,because I, we've talked about
this a lot. But just when Ithink even as adults, we can
(10:20:42):
have moments where we'reexperiencing emotions that we
don't have words for. And you'veyou've pointed this out many
times. It's for sure it can bethe frustrating thing for a
child. Yes. Because they can'ttell you exactly. Here's what
hurts. But that can be the verything that creates the most
distress in our lives as adultsis because we're going
(10:21:03):
something's wrong. We recognizesomething's wrong, even if we
don't recognize something'swrong, right? Yes. And because
we're clearly in distress otherpeople around us may see it
sometimes before we do it. Butour frustration can come from
like, I don't have the words tosay what is going on and I've
I've, I've learned of justsomething that's helped me is,
(10:21:24):
is asking Jesus, Jesus, what howdo I feel? Can you tell me what
can you put a name or if thishad a name, if the situation had
a name, Mike, what's what'shappening in my heart right now?
And that has been so it's it'sjust mattered greatly. It's been
it's been the liberation I'veneeded. Sometimes it's not even
necessarily someone to fix it orsolve it. Right? But just can
(10:21:48):
you tell me like, do youunderstand what's hurting?
Right? I think that is so true.
That's I feel like a huge partof the battle. You know, I was
just telling Razzles on acounseling appointment, and when
she named the fear there wasjust some I think that it was
almost I felt like a compass.
(10:22:08):
Child, it felt like okay, thisis now being seen. This is this
is now this is now seen like Ilike what you're saying the
problem I'm it's not coming inthe child's anxious and fighting
and crying and you're like it'sall actually all good, you're
gonna be fine now, but it'smirroring. And in that moment I
(10:22:29):
felt like the Lord wasrecognizing. I know this is hard
for you. I know you're afraid.
Yeah, I see the fear.
Yeah. Yeah. And you don't feelalone? Yeah, there's a thing.
There's that whole thing isunderneath at all, is that I'm
not by myself was someone whocannot help me. You know, I
there's someone who, who knowswhat I feel. And knows what I'm,
(10:22:52):
what I'm thinking what I'mexperiencing.
Yeah. Because yes, the that'sthat's good. Because I'm
thinking even now, like, Yeah,the thing that was causing some
of the most distress was like,man, no one around me gets how I
feel. Yeah, no one around mehits up, you can understand
what's causing the distress?
They don't they don't get it.
(10:23:15):
They can't see it. No. And soyou can, but we recognize as
adults with a child can need,but sometimes it's if we do have
to look at ourselves sometimesas like a little child and go
yes. Okay. What do you need?
Yeah. In order to?
Yes, we are. Exactly. We arechildren of God. Yeah. And I
(10:23:36):
take a lot of comfort in that.
Because sometimes, you know,today as I was praying and
thinking about doing a littlecheck in, like you were talking
about, and Jesus was justpointing out to me that, you
know, you were feeling shame.
And then you were feelingashamed for feeling ashamed on
(10:23:57):
top of it. So just taking theminute that little minute to sit
with him, and just ask him?
Yeah, I mean, it's pretty,pretty mind blowing how helpful
it can be. And simple, you know,really, in all that,
I think this will be a finalquestion. We'll see. Because
then you answer questions. Andthen I'm like, oh, man, I gotta
(10:24:19):
ask this question. Are there anysimple tips that you would have
beginning from beginning steps?
For someone that goes, Man, I'min distress right now? How do I
tune in to the Lord's thoughtstowards that distress? In his
(10:24:39):
heart posture towards me? How doI connect with that?
Yeah. Well, and the way we wereally teach people from the
start to hear God is once we askhim a question to grab the very
(10:25:00):
first thing that comes to mind,because God is quick and
answering. He, he is, you know,he wants to answer more than we
want to ask, actually. And soit's kind of like, just being
able to capture that very firstthing that comes and just start
(10:25:20):
the conversation and ask thesimple next question. So I mean,
a lot of people, sometimes theywill dismiss most of what they
get, because they don't realizeGod's talking to them. It's
gonna sound like their voice,because it's on the platform of
their mind. You know, he made itto communicate with us in that
(10:25:43):
way. But if you can capture thatthing, be it a picture, be it a
word, be it a sensation, thenthe thing we teach them to do is
to ask the next common sensequestion. So if I get a picture
(10:26:06):
of a door, and on, you know, Isaid, Jesus, I just asked you,
what do I need? And you justshowed, I just got a picture of
a door. Jesus, why did you showme that door? So that's just the
next question you would ask andlisten and capture that very
first thing, and begin tojournal those down to see the
(10:26:31):
conversation that emerges? No,that's good. Yeah. So we begin
to recognize his voice. Onething we usually tell people is,
you know, it's kind of like a Tchart. If you have love, peace,
kindness and goodness, the fruitof the Spirit, for example, if
(10:26:55):
the answer that you're gettingare these things that are coming
to mind or bearing that type offruit or feel that way, that's
kind of one thing to say yeah,this is probably God's voice,
you know, is probably trying toshow me something here. But if
it's condemning, accusatory andall that other stuff, that's
probably some other voice, youknow? Yeah.
(10:27:16):
Yeah. No, that's good. Yeah.
Well, Raz, thank you so much forbeing with us. Thank
you very much. feel honored tohave been here. If you're
hearing this message, you'velistened to the entire episode.
And for that I am deeplygrateful. I hope this episode
resonated with you and if it didhelp us out by sharing this
(10:27:36):
episode, and leaving a review onApple, podcasts, and Spotify.
Most importantly, reach out tolet me know how you're engaging
with this episode, and whattopics you'd like to see covered
in the future. You can connectwith us on social media, or get
in touch with me directly atGabrielle at return to joy.com
to share your heart. I'll seeyou in two weeks for a new
(10:27:58):
episode.
Welcome to the return to joypodcast. I'm your host,
Gabrielle Michel Leonard. Herewe're leading people to
cultivate joy throughstorytelling. We hope listening
will reveal pathways tounlocking the healing power of
connection so that you can seeyour relationships and the world
around you transformed fromfractured into flourishing.
(09:52:31):
What's up Beloved's? I amthrilled to be back with you for
another season. What is itseason four. And if you've been
following on social media or getthe newsletters that we send out
monthly, then you know that whatwe're unpacking in this series
is the series title, if youwill, is going to be called
Sabbath stories embracing restin a restless world cannot wait
(09:52:56):
to go through that with you.
It's going to be so good. ButI'm actually decided to start
this season off with a interviewI did with Rosalind Harvey,
actually earlier this year.
Rosalind is a friend and a and amentor. And she has been through
(09:53:17):
some intense trauma and loss,but she's going to actually talk
about how it helped reveal hertrue identity. We're gonna get
into the power of cultivatingthe non anxious presence of
Christ in our lives. And thegift that is truly to the
community around us and the inthe people that God has called
and sent us to. Can't wait foryou to listen to it some
(09:53:38):
stepping back and go ahead andhead and plan that episode. Roz,
I am very much so glad to haveyou here. I met Roz a Rosalyn
Harvey. Oh, man, I think what?
Two I met you in 2019. Yeah, Imade you in 2019. Because I was
starting to do work with anorganization here in San Antonio
(09:54:01):
called one. And Roz. I mean, sheshe just very much is a mother,
a mentor, a friend, a, afaithful, compassionate witness
to Christ. She's a faithful,compassionate human. I am very
much so excited for you to justshare yourself with us. I was
(09:54:28):
just telling Roz. We werepraying for this time that man,
I don't think this is going tobe about you imparting like
giving all the right words andimparting knowledge. But you
being yourself. That is howshe's helped me recover. And I
think you, you do that, if she'sdone then brilliant ways of just
(09:54:51):
being present. And as a result,people mature around her, and
people heal, and people recover.
And they act more likethemselves. And so, Roslyn, you
you come with a lot of wisdom.
And so I we're all in for a bigtreat in this conversation.
(09:55:12):
Thank you so much for beinghere. Rozlyn.
Oh, it's my pleasure.
Absolutely. I was just sittinghere thinking you may have only
known Gabrielle for years. Itjust seems like a long time.
That's it just so funny. Yeah.
That it hasn't been but I feelslike it has been a long time.
(09:55:33):
You know, a pandemic was inthere, too. Yep. pandemic, all
the craziness. So that that'lldo it. Yeah, that'll do it. Or
Aslan, you surely radiate peace.
That is that is for certain. Andso often, I've recovered from
feelings, like I said, ofoverwhelm, and emotional
distress just by being in yourpresence. Can you share with us
(09:55:54):
your personal journey, and howyou came to embody? What I've
heard, I first heard come fromyour lips, the non anxious
presence of Christ.
Yeah, well, first of all, thankyou for those kind words that
are just so kind. I I have, Iguess, grown over the last 35
(09:56:24):
years in ways that I probablywouldn't have anticipated from
the first 30 years of my life. Ithink probably I went through
some real crisis times. When Iwas around 35. I had the death
of a child, my husband left mefor another woman and he was a
(09:56:48):
pastor and it was justdifficult. I had another little
child and so I had a little girland I was a single parent and
found myself in those two orthree years just desperate for
for help, basically, and I thinkit did sort of boiled down to
(09:57:09):
identity, because I think I hadthought that my identity was
pretty much wrapped up in beinga pastor's wife and taking care
of him. So he could take care ofthe Church, which was something
I actually learned in my familyof origin. My dad was a pastor.
(09:57:32):
And so we had that thing goingon in our family too. So. But
once that what I now look at asmy faux identity was removed is
kind of like, okay, well,what's, what remains what's
(09:57:55):
there. And so, the Holy Spiritjust showed up a lot. Jesus
showed up a lot. Just respondingto my desperate prayers, of how
do I navigate this time as asingle mom having to find a job
(09:58:16):
a month, all that you have to doto raise a child. And so Jesus
was just so kind to me. And theHoly Spirit was a sense of being
so comforted and cared for. Andthat sort of attitude, on their
(09:58:45):
part toward me, really, justsort of tar started to infuse
the way I treated other people.
That's good. So that's kind ofhow it all started. They always
approached me in such kind andloving ways, sometimes I would
just start crying because it wasso kind. So you know. And so
(09:59:06):
that was kind of how it started.
And, and went, and even afterthat really difficult season of
my life, and I, when I was justkind of making making it work,
and Jesus was helping me make itwork. I still had issues of
(09:59:30):
needing to be healed. And so Istumbled on to it. I've been
through lots of different kindsof healing stuff, but not a lot
of inner healing stuff. Andprobably around 1999, somewhere
in there, I learned aboutTheophostic prayer. And that's
when I started really openingmyself up to that kind of
(09:59:53):
healing from God. And then I'malso praying with other people
to have that, too. So he alwaysshows up in those prayer
appointments, which I've beendoing for the last 2025 years,
in very non anxious ways. And soyou figure, well, he's not
(10:00:16):
worried, you know, he's noturgent, and all those things
that we tend to kind of puttogether with difficult
circumstances. And so I learnedfrom him how he showed up.
That's good. That's good. Man. Ilove that Roz i, because so many
(10:00:37):
times when I've been in a spacewith you, and I'm coming in
front of you, and I'm dumping mystuff, and the things that are
going on. And then somehow, I'llcome out of that time with you,
whether it's been in a specificprayer appointment that you're
leading me through, or justsimply a conversation in
(10:01:00):
friendship. I walk out, I leavethat time with you. And when I'm
trying to tell someone elseabout it, I'm like, I don't know
what she said. I don't actuallyknow. Sometimes you do drop
these amazing nuggets of wisdomin there is something that I can
coin that I can a phrase that Irecognize or words that stuck
with me. But then there's othertimes when I go I don't know
(10:01:22):
what it was about being inRoss's presence just then. But
I'm okay. Everything's notsolved. The situation didn't
change. But I'm okay. And I lovewhat you spoke to have that part
of what's happening there. Andthere's a reason why I can't put
(10:01:43):
words to it is it's notsomething that you just studied
and learned. How do I be apeaceful person or what tools or
tricks do you use in inmentoring and counseling other
people being with them, but it'ssomething that you're mirroring.
(10:02:06):
By by walking in in fellowshipwith Christ you're mirroring,
because in the places where youwere in your deepest pain, where
you were overwhelmed, youactually experienced, comfort,
experienced, being listened towithout judgment, and saw that
model to you buy the HolySpirit. And I've heard someone
(10:02:30):
say before that we can't, in allof our training in any of the
training that we may go through,we still can only we can't take
people deeper than we've evergone. And so I love what you
spoke to about the prayer, theprayer appointments. Roz, I know
you're, you're not a licensedcounselor. But you are and you
(10:02:54):
are a mentor. You are and youare a mother with a unique
approach to helping others. Yournon judgmental, empathetic and
offer sincere grace. But how didthat develop? Would you go
deeper with us in that I knowyou've mentioned some of it
already in the things you'vemodeled, from what you've seen
how you've seen Christ's work bewith you. But what were some
(10:03:16):
other ways that you'vecultivated that in your life?
It's funny, I was thinking onthe way over here, it's a funny
thing, every now passes throughmy mind, the daughter that I had
first, my first daughter wasborn with some real serious
(10:03:36):
defects, physical defects. Andshe lived for six months in
intensive care and then died.
And it's an odd thing to think.
But really, before I had her, Ijust thought that I would not
(10:03:57):
have children for some reason orother. But oddly enough, you
know, I, I responded to thatsituations in ways that I didn't
know were in me. So it's kind oflike she brought out in me the
(10:04:19):
mother. And so it's it's, yeah,it's truthful to say that, that
probably one of the darkesthours of my life probably
brought out more of the real me.
Okay, yeah, you have to wake.
How How did that happen?
(10:04:41):
Well, you know, it's really odd,because I found myself
responding to her. You know,before you're a mom, you really
don't know what that is, youknow, you can kind of look at
your own mother and kind ofthink about it and kind of get
some pictures and ideas. Butonce a child shows up on the
(10:05:01):
scene, there are a whole lot ofthings that happen between
mother and baby that are notthat are pre verbal and
nonverbal. Yeah. And so thatsort of thing went on between
us. And I think she showed me astrong part of myself, you know,
it's kind of one of thosethings, where you think, Well, I
(10:05:23):
would never be able to fill inthe blank. And then all of a
sudden, you're in the situation.
And you find out well, yeah,I'm, I'm stepping up here. I'm
doing this. And so in a weirdkind of way. Um, you know, I
think that's, that's what sortof that part of me that got
(10:05:47):
awakened, is really the mother,the mentor, the elder, it's all
the same thing. And it's justhelping people and responding to
people who have need, be theyarticulated needs or be they pre
verbal or nonverbal? Because Ijust wait, it was awakened to
(10:06:12):
me. But also Jesus responded tomy need in the moment. And the
Holy Spirit responded to myneed. So kind of those two
things were really what we'rekind of the door to kind of
walking in that grace. Yeah. ofresponsiveness. It's a
(10:06:34):
responsive place, being amother. Do you
have a story from yourgranddaughters that could give
us a better picture into whatthat mothering response?
Like? Yeah. The thing that cameto mind was when my daughter and
son in law had their 10 yearanniversary, and my husband and
(10:06:58):
I went over and took care of thelittle girls while they went for
four or five days. And so thatwas like The first time the
little girls had been alone. Onewas like, I'm gonna say maybe a
little over a year. And theother one was about three or
(10:07:18):
four. So anyway, they werelittle, and so that we were a
little bit concerned about that.
And so one night, one of thelittle ones, the littlest one,
Imogen, was crying. So I poppedout of bed and went over and got
her out of her crib. And, youknow, I mean, I was just in
shock. First of all, how muchgoes on in a kid? By what what
(10:07:41):
she said. She said, that blackcar took mommy away. What we had
done is we had awaken them earlyin the morning, that their mom
and dad were supposed to leaveso they could wave at the Uber
to say goodbye. So they wouldn'tjust wake up and then we're
(10:08:04):
gone. We didn't, you know. So wehad done that. And so little did
I know her little mind had seenthis Black Guard come and her
mom get in it and be taken away.
So she was crying. And so I justcomforted her and I, I said, you
(10:08:26):
know? I said, Well, do you knowwhy they had to go in another
car? And so I sort of reasonedwith her a little bit and told
her we had to keep the other carin order to take her older
sister to school the next dayand things like that. So she
(10:08:47):
still looked upset. So I justsaid, well, would it be okay, if
we asked Jesus if everything'sgonna be okay, if everything's
all right, she kind of looked atme pretty doubtful, but she
nodded her head up and down. SoI just said a quick prayer. I
said, Jesus is everything okay?
She opened her eyes. She said,Yeah. And then I put her back
down in the crib, and she wentto sleep, and we didn't have any
(10:09:10):
other problems. And so I thinkjust knowing that Jesus is ready
and wants to help, and that he'svery close to children, really,
really matters. And we're allchildren of God. So even when
we're upset, and we don't evenhave words for it, we just have
(10:09:34):
funny words for it even Yeah,he's there. He wants to help.
He's, he's, he's ready andwaiting.
Now, I love that. Yeah. Well,Roz, like what practices, you
know, spiritual disciplines ortechniques have helped you
maintain a gracious andempathetic presence.
(10:09:59):
You know, when I thought aboutthat question, what kept coming
to mind was core values, andbeing able to honor and
cooperate with the way that Godmade me and the values that he
put in my heart, particularvalues. Okay. And I think maybe
(10:10:24):
some, I guess, the way I wasseeing them, was that my Yeah,
like, I would think of them asboundaries. But boundaries
aren't really the values. Like,for example, if I have a
boundary, to try and not talk totalk about somebody who's not in
the room with me, to otherpeople, that kind of thing, that
(10:10:47):
the value behind that is justwanting to share life, and, you
know, just be honest andtransparent in my relationships.
And so that's one of the ways itshows up. In other words, so I
think that that honoring, firstof all, articulating those
(10:11:11):
values took me a while.
I Yeah. Which even though I didnot know that you didn't think
you'd answer the question, andspeak to core values, which is
really interesting to me.
Well, I really came to anappreciation of core values
after I've read the book, churchunique, which is a book by will
(10:11:32):
man Seanie. And it's pretty,he's just pretty much a genius.
He's an engineer and a pastor.
And he put together a thingcalled a vision framework to
help churches understand theirunique thumbprint, their
identity. And so, but I reallyappreciated how much he helped
me get to kind of, kind of howdo you get to that place of
(10:11:56):
identifying, oh, this is who Iam, you know? And I think
because I have sort of I candefault to self judgment pretty
Fast and pretty easily. It'shelped me to really know what's
behind something. So if I havean inclination away from
(10:12:17):
something, rather than judge it,and say, Well, you know, why
can't I? Why don't I whatever,however, I'm falling short,
wondering a little bit like,Huh, I wonder what if there's
some sort of core value underthere that might be being
activated? You know. But hehelped me to ask a lot of
(10:12:43):
questions about it. And he, hehas a way with words, and it
just helped me so much. I'llgive you some examples of my
core values I, I just reallybelieve, and a thing that I call
and I coined, I have never seenit anywhere else, but
(10:13:05):
sustainably sacrificial acts.
And so to me, is having enoughjoy for the journey. And I think
that we in the end, especiallyin the Western Hemisphere, and
our app not to have enough joyto enjoy strength, you know,
(10:13:27):
that that energy that God givesus through our relationships, to
be able to do things, and so wekind of push ourselves beyond
what we should maybe, yeah, sothat's perhaps that's one of
them. The other one is that I,I, I really value working on
teams in mutually satisfyingrelationships. Yeah, so that's a
(10:13:52):
huge value to me. And that'skind of, that's kind of how I'll
show up and do things I want toteam up with people. You know, I
also, I really love a desiredriven motivation. I've heard
you talk about this. That'ssuper important to me, that we,
(10:14:17):
rather than having a shoulds andoughts and all that other stuff
to really discover what it isGod put in us, that He is, you
know, he's trying to, tomanifest in the world through
us, through our, through thedesires he put in us. So that's
(10:14:37):
another one. And I thinkprobably I was gonna say, I have
a high value for forgiveness,both giving and receiving
keeping short accounts, isimportant to me. So those are
some examples. But I find thatmy life is a lot more peaceful
when I'm cooperating with thatway that I'm designed. As
(10:15:01):
opposed to trying to meetsomebody else's expectation, or
even my own, you know, like, Ishould want to do this, I should
want to do that rather to look alittle bit deeper and wonder
what's going on here. WhereasI'm going
to propose that you add anothervalue to your list. Okay.
(10:15:22):
There's something I recognize inyou. And I hear it even in the
way that you're responding rightnow. See, wonder?
Yeah, that's my flow. Yeah,yeah. There is this basically
how I flow?
There. Is this all in wonderthat I think that's I see that
as the driver that makes youlean in to people is there's not
(10:15:45):
this, Oh, I see them, I alreadyknow them. There's actually more
so this. I actually wonder, Iwonder what's going on? I wonder
what their need is? I wonder whyI'm thinking I think that way
about that, or why they'rethinking that way. And that it's
it's filled with this, like notit's a non judgmental approach
(10:16:09):
that is filled with a whole lotof grace. And we had a
conversation about this a whileback, but it's not this
curiosity for our own sakethat's like, that's devoid of
love. Because curiosity withoutlove is actually abusive. Right?
And it's, and it's, it'smanipulate me manipulative. But
(10:16:31):
there is this very much so loveinfused wonder and awe in, hey,
this is an image better thanbefore me that I'm sitting with
that I'm seeing, even if I don'tagree with you, and I don't
understand, even if I'm angrywith even if they're gay, even
if I don't understand, but I'mleaning it. And so I I just I
(10:16:51):
very much have seen that I'vebenefited from it.
What they do, for sure, forsure.
Well, Ross, something that youhave mentioned in the time that
I've known you quite a bit isthis this word attunement, that
if people have They are in thecounseling world or they've been
to counseling a lot. They mayhave heard that term before. But
(10:17:14):
there also may be others outthere who go, what is the word
attunement? So can you help usunderstand? Like, what is
attunement? And how can it helppeople connect to one another?
And heal?
Yeah, well, you know, I thinkthe easiest way to talk about it
is like, at the very beginning,when you're a little baby with a
(10:17:35):
with your mother, babies byvirtue of the fact that they're
just learning about the world,they don't really even
understand themselves as to beseparate almost, well, about
around 18 months start having,you know, difficult emotions
like fear, or distress, thosesorts of things. And the way
(10:18:02):
that God's built into life isfor the mom to be able to go and
attune to the baby. So thatwould look like the the mom even
actually mimicking the distresson her face that the baby's
feeling. So that does a coupleof things, the baby doesn't feel
alone. It's not a mismatch, youknow what I'm saying? Yeah, but
(10:18:28):
also, the mom is a presents withthe baby, and just gradually,
gently brings the baby back toJoy. By whatever it is, that has
happened, if there's a big mess,helping to clean up the mess or
to whatever it is, the mom cankind of mediate the situation by
(10:18:53):
gently working with the babytill the baby's back to Joy, you
know, cleaned up or comforted orwhatever. And basically, that
actually cuts a neural pathwayin their brain, from that area
of the brain that's distressedback to the joy Center, which is
(10:19:14):
the prefrontal cortex and thefront of the brain. So, and lots
and lots of practice like that.
That type of attunement, wheresomeone sees me, someone
understands me, and someone canhelp me, you know, that sort of
thing creates a resilientpersonality in that baby.
(10:19:37):
There's a lot of, I think thehard part is that it's pre
verbal and nonverbal at thatcase, because the baby so
little, the baby doesn't knowlanguage, you know. And so there
is a great deal of frustrationtill you get the baby old enough
to where that you cancommunicate with that baby. I
was really blessed that Imogenhad words to say, the blank card
(10:20:00):
took mommy away. Yeah, yeah. Youknow, because otherwise, she's
crying. And I don't know why.
Right. Yeah. So but the goodthing is, and that you and I
both know, is even when we don'thave the words, Jesus knows. He
does know. And so just knowingthat he'll be there, and he'll
(10:20:21):
show up. And we can just invitehim to do what he does. You
know, that's, that's really,that's a treasure, you know,
man, that's so good, Rhys,because I, we've talked about
this a lot. But just when Ithink even as adults, we can
(10:20:42):
have moments where we'reexperiencing emotions that we
don't have words for. And you'veyou've pointed this out many
times. It's for sure it can bethe frustrating thing for a
child. Yes. Because they can'ttell you exactly. Here's what
hurts. But that can be the verything that creates the most
distress in our lives as adultsis because we're going
(10:21:03):
something's wrong. We recognizesomething's wrong, even if we
don't recognize something'swrong, right? Yes. And because
we're clearly in distress otherpeople around us may see it
sometimes before we do it. Butour frustration can come from
like, I don't have the words tosay what is going on and I've
I've, I've learned of justsomething that's helped me is,
(10:21:24):
is asking Jesus, Jesus, what howdo I feel? Can you tell me what
can you put a name or if thishad a name, if the situation had
a name, Mike, what's what'shappening in my heart right now?
And that has been so it's it'sjust mattered greatly. It's been
it's been the liberation I'veneeded. Sometimes it's not even
necessarily someone to fix it orsolve it. Right? But just can
(10:21:48):
you tell me like, do youunderstand what's hurting?
Right? I think that is so true.
That's I feel like a huge partof the battle. You know, I was
just telling Razzles on acounseling appointment, and when
she named the fear there wasjust some I think that it was
almost I felt like a compass.
(10:22:08):
Child, it felt like okay, thisis now being seen. This is this
is now this is now seen like Ilike what you're saying the
problem I'm it's not coming inthe child's anxious and fighting
and crying and you're like it'sall actually all good, you're
gonna be fine now, but it'smirroring. And in that moment I
(10:22:29):
felt like the Lord wasrecognizing. I know this is hard
for you. I know you're afraid.
Yeah, I see the fear.
Yeah. Yeah. And you don't feelalone? Yeah, there's a thing.
There's that whole thing isunderneath at all, is that I'm
not by myself was someone whocannot help me. You know, I
there's someone who, who knowswhat I feel. And knows what I'm,
(10:22:52):
what I'm thinking what I'mexperiencing.
Yeah. Because yes, the that'sthat's good. Because I'm
thinking even now, like, Yeah,the thing that was causing some
of the most distress was like,man, no one around me gets how I
feel. Yeah, no one around mehits up, you can understand
what's causing the distress?
They don't they don't get it.
(10:23:15):
They can't see it. No. And soyou can, but we recognize as
adults with a child can need,but sometimes it's if we do have
to look at ourselves sometimesas like a little child and go
yes. Okay. What do you need?
Yeah. In order to?
Yes, we are. Exactly. We arechildren of God. Yeah. And I
(10:23:36):
take a lot of comfort in that.
Because sometimes, you know,today as I was praying and
thinking about doing a littlecheck in, like you were talking
about, and Jesus was justpointing out to me that, you
know, you were feeling shame.
And then you were feelingashamed for feeling ashamed on
(10:23:57):
top of it. So just taking theminute that little minute to sit
with him, and just ask him?
Yeah, I mean, it's pretty,pretty mind blowing how helpful
it can be. And simple, you know,really, in all that,
I think this will be a finalquestion. We'll see. Because
then you answer questions. Andthen I'm like, oh, man, I gotta
(10:24:19):
ask this question. Are there anysimple tips that you would have
beginning from beginning steps?
For someone that goes, Man, I'min distress right now? How do I
tune in to the Lord's thoughtstowards that distress? In his
(10:24:39):
heart posture towards me? How doI connect with that?
Yeah. Well, and the way we wereally teach people from the
start to hear God is once we askhim a question to grab the very
(10:25:00):
first thing that comes to mind,because God is quick and
answering. He, he is, you know,he wants to answer more than we
want to ask, actually. And soit's kind of like, just being
able to capture that very firstthing that comes and just start
(10:25:20):
the conversation and ask thesimple next question. So I mean,
a lot of people, sometimes theywill dismiss most of what they
get, because they don't realizeGod's talking to them. It's
gonna sound like their voice,because it's on the platform of
their mind. You know, he made itto communicate with us in that
(10:25:43):
way. But if you can capture thatthing, be it a picture, be it a
word, be it a sensation, thenthe thing we teach them to do is
to ask the next common sensequestion. So if I get a picture
(10:26:06):
of a door, and on, you know, Isaid, Jesus, I just asked you,
what do I need? And you justshowed, I just got a picture of
a door. Jesus, why did you showme that door? So that's just the
next question you would ask andlisten and capture that very
first thing, and begin tojournal those down to see the
(10:26:31):
conversation that emerges? No,that's good. Yeah. So we begin
to recognize his voice. Onething we usually tell people is,
you know, it's kind of like a Tchart. If you have love, peace,
kindness and goodness, the fruitof the Spirit, for example, if
(10:26:55):
the answer that you're gettingare these things that are coming
to mind or bearing that type offruit or feel that way, that's
kind of one thing to say yeah,this is probably God's voice,
you know, is probably trying toshow me something here. But if
it's condemning, accusatory andall that other stuff, that's
probably some other voice, youknow? Yeah.
(10:27:16):
Yeah. No, that's good. Yeah.
Well, Raz, thank you so much forbeing with us. Thank
you very much. feel honored tohave been here. If you're
hearing this message, you'velistened to the entire episode.
And for that I am deeplygrateful. I hope this episode
resonated with you and if it didhelp us out by sharing this
(10:27:36):
episode, and leaving a review onApple, podcasts, and Spotify.
Most importantly, reach out tolet me know how you're engaging
with this episode, and whattopics you'd like to see covered
in the future. You can connectwith us on social media, or get
in touch with me directly atGabrielle at return to joy.com
to share your heart. I'll seeyou in two weeks for a new
(10:27:58):
episode.
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