May 11, 2022 • 24 mins
We've got a special guest! Executive Director of Wildfire Network, Taylor Rogers, steps behind the mic to interview Gabrielle Leonard, Director of Returning to Joy. In this episode you'll hear her heart and the why behind the ministry of Returning to Joy.
Letter from the host:
Dear Beloveds,
Reflecting on and responding to the faithful and intelligent love of God has been therapeutic to my mind, heart, and body! I vulnerably share because I want you to experience the joy of authentic connection with Jesus, yourself, and others.
Growth happens at the point of connection. Thank you for trusting me with this connection! I'm glad you're here!
With joy,
Gabrielle Michelle
New episodes onWednesdays! Bi-weekly!
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Website: https://www.returningtojoy.com/
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Music by AG (Affirming Grace) @agmusic4god
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gabrielle Leonard (00:00):
Welcome to the return to joy podcast. I'm
your host, Gabrielle MichelLeonard. Here we're leading
people to cultivate joy throughstorytelling. We hope listening
will reveal pathways tounlocking the healing power of
connection, so that you can seeyour relationships and the world
around you transformed fromfractured into flourishing. Man,
(00:25):
it is always a joy and an honorto show up right here with you
guys. And this episode I'mreally excited about I've asked
my brother and executivedirector of wildfire network,
Taylor Rogers to interview me.
So wildfire network is aorganization that exists to help
the dreams of Jesus come true inand through his people. So it's
(00:48):
a beautiful collective ofdiverse people that are
responding to what God's put intheir heart to do in unique and
authentic ways. And I thought,man, who better to ask me some
questions about the heart behindreturn to joy than Taylor
Rogers, who has been so crucialand supporting me and the
(01:12):
development of this ministry.
Because if you didn't know,wildfire, not wildfire,
returning to joy, or rcj, forsure, it is not just this
podcast, but it actually is aministry. And as we continue to
listen to the Lord and beresponsive to God, what are you
building and doing, we're addingmore organizational structure
(01:36):
and more offerings and justshowing up with people. And it's
been a beautiful working thing.
And, and I'm just excited foryou to hear a little bit more of
the heart there. So let me stepout of the way so he can hear
this episode.
Taylor Rogers (01:51):
Okay, so I'm here in the wildfire network, podcast
recording studio with GabrielleLeonard, founder and starter of
a mission called returning tojoy. So I just said it was a
mission, I realize that's atechnical name for wildfire
network, ministry partners andpeople who are really part of
(02:13):
that network. But, you know, youmight talk about it as a church
or a ministry or movement, or Idon't know how you would talk
about or what you would say,returning to joy is, but that's
really my first question foryou. What is returning to joy?
Gabrielle Leonard (02:28):
It's a good question. To start off with some
practical one. What is returningto joy? That has been a question
that I've been asking the Lordfor the last two years.
Returning to joy is a responsivemovement to the Lord. It's a
movement space of bringing otherpeople into what it means to
(02:49):
walk relationally with God, inthe way in which he intended I
believe, even just from, fromcreation, you know, just for us
to walk in the relational intentof the Lord, where that affects
the way that we relate with oneanother, and the way that we
relate with with ourselves.
Taylor Rogers (03:05):
That's really That's a great answer. One of
the things I heard you say thatthat seemed like a pretty tight
description, was when you said,returning to joy as a responsive
movement. And then how did youfinish that off?
Gabrielle Leonard (03:21):
Yeah, that returning the joy comes from a
place of understanding that thevery, the very pain that we see
in the world, the things thatfrustrate us, the things that
are complex, that are hard, thethings that are ailments within
our very own soul, returning tojoy comes from this place of
recognition of, we're going torespond to the fact that the
(03:41):
Lord is actually aware of thosevery same things to and actually
has a redemptive plan andsolution for those things. Those
are not. And so because a lot oftimes, like I know I've done it,
doing it in different ways andunlearning we can try and go out
and do from the place that ismore responsive to pain than it
is to the presence of God inthat pain. Living from the
(04:02):
responsiveness of pain is notsustainable for what the Lord
wants to do in the earth, butliving it with responsiveness to
the heart of God to that pain issustainable. And so it's it's
returning to joy is thismovement by which we're trying
to disciple and teach and train.
How do you shift to doing thingsin that manner? And in that way,
Taylor Rogers (04:24):
if you're, if you're listening to this,
recording, you know, I'dencourage you to go back to the
beginning and listen toGabrielle's answer. Again, I
think in that you'll find apackage that includes salvation
that includes the kingdom thatincludes redemption, that
includes fellowship andcommunion and there's a lot of
things that often get framed inlike classical terms of
(04:46):
Christianese that have felt likeyou expressed in a very
authentic way, that to me echoesof the upper room when Jesus did
clearly express his own desire.
I've told you this so that myjoy may be in you and that your
joy may be complete. And andthis is the same one who endured
that pain of the cross. Yeah,not because of the pain, but for
(05:09):
the joy set before. Yeah. Thenext question I have has to do
with returning to joy right now.
What does returning to joy donow in terms of current
offerings and resources?
Gabrielle Leonard (05:23):
Yeah, right now, returning to joy offers
cultivate Joy sessions. Andthat's a space where people can
just have a one on one timewhere I'm like, facilitating
them in a conversation with theLord that really does end up
looking like the Lord, beingcounselor being like the good
being a good shepherd in atangible way, and also being
(05:43):
coached for them, where hereally do find he does something
that unlocks just what is neededwithin their heart. And so, so
every session ends up lookingdifferently, people can do just
a one off session, but you cando like several sessions with
those have also done, they'reoffering something called
showing up together sessions.
And it's basically for teams,that they feel a sense of a
(06:05):
disconnect, or there's just adesire for there to be a deeper
level of oneness among them,there is where they're like,
man, like, we don't want a falsesense of unity. We don't want to
have diverse voices at thetable, and then not know how to
(06:28):
utilize and bring those voicesout to the surface. And so those
sessions with teams, I think ithas really helped cultivate that
kind of environment that breedsspace for people to show up
together well, and so that'swhat those sessions are. And
then
Taylor Rogers (06:48):
as a as a ministry leader, who really
understands the purposes of God,and the beauty and effectiveness
of diversity in creation, andthen humanity as a reflection of
that, and really, the kingdom ofGod, as portrayed throughout
Scripture seems to also reflectthat is, you know, also a person
(07:11):
who is aware that, as a leader,I've often neglected to
implement that. And many of theenvironments in which I've been
led have have neglected toimplement that sort of
diversity. And and and I feellike right now there's an
awareness among church leaders,Christian leaders, yeah, Pastor
friends that I have, there's anawareness of a desire to
(07:34):
experience more of what God hasthrough the diversity of his
people. Yeah. But there seems tobe a lack of knowledge as to how
to do that, other than giving aperson of color or giving
someone a seat at the table. Andit, it does seem to be the case
(07:55):
that sometimes just bringingsomeone to a table with the same
settings as before, the sametable as before, sometimes ends
up causing hurt to that person,and you actually still miss out
for sure what God intends. Andit it sounds like, the kind of
sessions that you're talkingabout doing have been productive
(08:16):
or helpful for there being likean authentic, I think you said
authentic, where
Gabrielle Leonard (08:20):
there's not incongruent seas with like, the
value of the organization andwhat's actually being lived out
what's being experienced amongthe group. For sure.
Taylor Rogers (08:28):
That's cool. So sorry to interrupt you, we're
talking about the individualsessions. And then you were
talking about showing uptogether, which
Gabrielle Leonard (08:34):
is more of a group deal. Yeah. And then
there's a desire to put moreresources on the website. So I'm
really excited about thatthere's still things that are
being worked on something that'slike continually being worked on
is something I'm callinggrieving with God, because just
like the last like two years, Ithink multiple people would feel
(08:55):
a sense of resonance with thatstatement. But that's definitely
there's that's been one spacethat I've been in with the Lord
of wrestle and of him disciplingme in what it looks like to
grieve in His presence and comeout on the out on the other
side, like basically kind ofcontinue in that process and
(09:15):
rhythm and it looks differentfor everyone grieving does, but
there is there are things thatcan like help and continuing
along and so I'm excited aboutwhen that's available. But yeah,
Taylor Rogers (09:25):
I'm also excited about that. One of the things
that I have found in my own inmy own experience, having been
brought up majority culturewhite male, you know,
evangelical Christian, that thethe space for lament is short
(09:45):
lived, you know, we're extremelyquick with the tissues. If if
there there at all, yeah. Andmany other cultures, certainly
the African American community,I have witnessed really being
able to Be present in a grievingspace in a way that honestly, to
me looks more like the kinds ofthings I read about from the
(10:07):
Hebrew and the Jewish people,and Scriptures with regard to
mourning, grieving lament. Andso I would be excited for your
voice and for the ministry ofart rtj to be able to, to impact
to you know, not necessarilyinfiltrate, but to, to
(10:29):
germinate. Yeah, you know, intothe this zeitgeist that we're in
right now, because there is sucha need for lament and grieving.
And I think that there's a reallack of awareness as to, like,
how, or why so I'm very excitedfor that resource.
Gabrielle Leonard (10:50):
mean, to me, I think, even
Taylor Rogers (10:51):
like an individual perspective, but then
also in a corporate sense. Andyeah, what would you speak to
that for just a moment aboutkind of the the nature of
individual and corporate, andhow that comes into play, when
you think about resources, thereturn into joy would be,
Gabrielle Leonard (11:11):
yeah, there's definitely this place of a
constant both and that try tofunction in, there's an
awareness of, there's times whenyou've got to speak to the
individual, because the Lordsees the individual, he sees the
one. And, and there's somethingthat the Lord can DO and DOES
and one heart that sparkssomething, and another, and so
(11:34):
trying to be very much sointimate and specific in the way
we speak to the wind andproviding resources for the wind
in their own private time withthe Lord. But then also mindful
of, there's ways that we've donea disservice to, you know, most
devotionals are like, aredirected at like, hey, one
person reading this forthemselves. And it's, it's very
(11:54):
much so AI centric language. Andso there's, there's, yes,
there's a need. But then there'salso this balance, where it's
like, we also need, healing isalso a communal thing. It's not
just individual. And so there'sa need, you have to speak to the
community, and you have to speakwith God is dealt with, to what
God wants to do and is doingamong the whole, because I
(12:15):
actually find that sometimes thedisconnected that necessarily
feel some of the symptoms thatwe're finding in our own lives
as individuals are actuallybecause of the disconnect to the
whole, because there's a senseof cut off nests from the body.
And so there's a desire as wellto to make sure that we don't do
a disservice, but we serve welland provide resources that are
community minded of thinkinglike, No, we're talking to a
(12:37):
Wii, and we're serving a Wii,because that is also needed for
the health and wholeness of theone. And the, and the health and
wholeness of the one is alsoneeded for the health and
wholeness of the whole. And youknow, like, and so, when we read
scripture, to think about notjust our perspective and think
about okay, what, what role inplace, would we assign
(12:57):
ourselves, which is usually themain character, usually the
awesome one, but just thinkingabout? What would it look like
if we disinterred ourselves inthat store in the stories that
we're reading in Scripture andcentered someone else? And ask
the Lord Lord, like, what couldthis scripture be doing in this
person's heart, if this personis the center, and it wasn't,
and it wasn't me, those thingsonly strengthen our relationship
(13:20):
to to the Lord even,
Taylor Rogers (13:22):
I really appreciate that that's a great
way of understanding kind ofwhat lies behind what we see
which we just see the currentofferings or the forthcoming
ones. And sometimes they canseem to be aimed at different
groups like this is an eventthat's for the community, or for
a group or this is a groupexperience, or this is maybe
seems to be a high on thesurface, a highly individualized
(13:44):
personal spiritual journey.
Yeah. And I, you know, if youlook at our TJ and what it is,
it's difficult to pigeonhole asto one or the other. But I feel
like you just gave a reallyarticulate way of connecting
them and explaining why that'swhat we see. Yeah. So I
appreciate that.
Gabrielle Leonard (14:03):
One thing just to add a story to that,
because it is one of the placeswhere that's when thinking about
Scripture and Bible say wherewe're, where some of that's
coming from, is when I was inthe Philippines. There was at
one point when in in Manila,there's one point I'd like walk
down the sidewalk a little waysfrom from the home that I was
(14:23):
staying in. And I felt the Lordled me to open up the Scripture
and as I'm opening it up, andit's in it's one of David's
Psalms. It's, you know, slippingmy mind now in this moment, I
think maybe Psalms 13 or 16,where he's like, how long Oh,
Lord, you know, like, will youforget me? Well, my enemies rise
up against me, right? Like, notso not a narrative not connected
to David at different times. ButI remember reading that and I
(14:47):
started reading the Scripture.
And then all of a sudden, I gotme a couple of voices in knights
of the Lord said, Nope, startagain. And instinctively,
there's a sense of I've neverthought this way before, but
instinctively there is the senseof it. Oh, I get what's
happening. I'm David in thismoment. And I've just I've just
put myself as a Davidimmediately in a minute when he
said, Nope, start again. Istarted back up from the top.
(15:08):
And then I began to look around.
And I felt like he pointed outthis guy who was like, crouched
on his knees making, likeworking with cement. And he was
like, making bricks orsomething. And he said, I want
you to read this song from thatguy's perspective. And it was
like this. Okay, and so then nowif I'm reading The song was this
this guy's perspective? It evenasked me it beg the question, I
(15:29):
had to ask some hard questionsabout like, Wait, who am I? Do I
have a place in the story? ButI'm not David, this guy's David,
than where am I? You know, like,if this guy is crying out, Lord,
what is his look like? If he'scrying out, Lord? How long? Will
you forgive me? What does thatmean for my role in my
relationship? And is there evena sense of the Lord's response
is not delayed because the Lordhas delayed but there is a sense
(15:50):
of like he uses it were a partof his response in the earth. So
if there was just there was justa wrestle, regardless of where
you land, simply because of Dcentering myself in that story,
I had to wrestle in a way that Iwouldn't have had to wrestle
before. And so that just, it wasa striking moment for me that it
was never discipled in mebefore. And so it was just like,
(16:13):
whoa, what would that look likefor this to be one I definitely
felt a conviction of, I needthis to be a more regular
practice in my study and readingof the scriptures of not so
quickly centralizing myself inthe sense of this is about me,
I'm the main character here.
Taylor Rogers (16:29):
Go on a tour, so to speak. Yeah,
Gabrielle Leonard (16:31):
yeah. Yeah.
Taylor Rogers (16:33):
So I've heard you mention that God is often at
work in a person long beforeanyone can see it. Yeah. How was
God working in your life priorto returning to joy that we can
now see expressed in thisministry?
Gabrielle Leonard (16:49):
Oh, that's great question. There was one
story. I think it's connectedand like getting out to
something else, too. If if it'snot connected enough, you can
follow up. But one image that Ican't get out of my mind is, it
is I was in, I think I was incollege at this point. And I
came back home, I was at mydad's apartment. And I think my
(17:13):
little my little sister isthere. My older brother was
there. Possibly my older sisteras well, too. I think it was
pretty much everyone in myimmediate family, except for my
mom. And I remember there wasKim, what was going on, but
there was just chaos. Like,there, there was a very intense
argument that was going on. Ithink my little sister left the
(17:35):
house. I think for a secondthere actually, I actually think
we weren't sure if she ran awayweren't sure if we weren't sure
where she went in the in thelevel of intensity of that
moment. It was very much so itcould be factor that grace just
dipped. She just left and so andI remember in that moment, I
(17:55):
broke down to my knees and Ijust started weeping and crying
and last so like praying loudly,just loudly praying. And it
wasn't a show it wasn't I'mpretty sure like some preachers
some people in the moment wouldhave thought it was a show maybe
I don't know but it was justthis like I am so beyond
overwhelmed in this moment. Andall all I could do was pray like
(18:19):
all I could do all I could dowas pray and there is this sense
of powerlessness and there isthis sense of not supposed to be
this way it doesn't have to bethis way there is just this
discontent dislike like I don'tI'm so done with I didn't have
(18:41):
it didn't feel like this. Ididn't have any blaming there
wasn't someone in my mind oflike, whose fault it was, like I
said don't even necessarilyremember what all happened.
Taylor Rogers (18:50):
Or, or was there a person wrong or many wrongs?
There's just a sense of like,just feel like even this sense
of like,
Gabrielle Leonard (18:56):
I don't even feel separate from this I feel a
part of it very much. So a partit's not even like you all are
the issue and it's wish I couldget step out of this. But there
was this like, I think this wasthis heart cry of God Do you
hear? God? Where are you like,like, do you see this? And I
(19:16):
think those were moments thatthere's always been in me this
sense of God Do you see thediscontent the chaos and the
turmoil? Like of your people dosee and I'm not necessarily even
speaking specifically to speaklike we were all Christians in
that room but even just thinkingabout the like chaos of the
(19:37):
world like and it's like Godlike do you see this where
you're Where have your eye whereare your eyes here and but also
to this huge this outcry to himbecause there also was this
internal sense of like, only youhave the power to like, step in
here and I do think you actuallyare within earshot I actually do
(20:01):
think just thinking aboutthere's a little like, Hebrew
proverb, I think or somethinglike that when they're like,
they could tell how long a childhad been without their parent,
because it's like, if the childis barely calling out, and it's
a whimper, they know that thatparent has been gone has
abandoned that child for Lordknows how long because the
whimper the still the small Yelpis because the child doesn't
(20:24):
really believe an answer isgoing to come anymore. But the
child who's screaming loudlywho's like, you know, top of
your lungs still yelling outMom, mom, dad, Dad, are you
there? That mom, that parentthat dad is, is actually
probably not far gone? Becausethat child still believes that
it could that its cry could beanswered? And so I think there's
(20:46):
there is this. There is thiswrestlers always been this
wrestling this tinge and also acry, believing that, Lord, you
actually want to and will andare the only one that can answer
here. And you are the one thatwe need to answer. And I think
that in walking with the Lord,there's been this. He's taken
(21:10):
continually and still on thisjourney of realizing his answer.
And realizing he is with he isresponding. And even the promise
of like, I will give I like thehope that we long for, for the
Lord to accomplish, and even thesense of like his, his promise
(21:33):
and his solution in those placesof deepest darkness and pain of
him being like I am the answer.
And it just, there's aconnection for me. There's a
forever connection of thedeepest darkness in the world,
the deepest pain in the world,and the answer and response of
God.
Taylor Rogers (21:55):
That's awesome.
Thank you for sharing thatstory. I think that it is a
testimony to the faith that theLord had cultivated in you at
that point in your life, thatyou would be capable of feeling
(22:16):
the wrongness of thatdisconnection of that last one.
Right? Jesus hinted at that whenhe was talking about a lost
sheep. And then people werelike, Oh, it's a sheep that's
lost. What's the big deal? Yougot 10,000 sheep. In the story,
even Jesus talking about yougotta get 100 sheep. Yeah, one
loss. Yeah. You know, you get 10coins. You get one loss.
Gabrielle Leonard (22:40):
Yeah. Right.
Yeah.
Taylor Rogers (22:42):
But but the the heart of that series of stories
is when Jesus was like, Yeah,but you get two sons. And then
one gets lost. Man, you feelthat? Or at least at least God
as portrayed and the father ofthe prodigal son. Yeah, feels
that. Right. And I think thatit's your testimony to the
(23:03):
unique work and even callingthat God has given you that you
would be capable of feeling thatbrokenness in that moment.
Right. That is a reallyaccessible and like, it's, it's
actually, when I hear that I'mable to interject my own moments
of cry, longing, pain, whetherthey're my own or ones that I've
(23:26):
shared with other people. Inhearing that story. It's it's,
it's, it's inviting into that.
And then it also is inviting tothat same faith, that trust that
God is near. Yeah. And God isable and desiring to do
something about the pain thatI'm expressing. And I think
that's a wonderful way oftalking about the origin story
of returning to joy, where isthis coming from? That's where
(23:50):
it's coming from. So praise God.
Amen. That's, that's all thequestions that I had.
Gabrielle Leonard (23:59):
Thank you so much for interviewing me. If
you're hearing this message,you've listened to the entire
episode. And for that, I amdeeply grateful. I hope this
episode resonated with you andif it did help us out by sharing
this episode, and leaving areview on Apple podcasts, and
(24:19):
Spotify. Most importantly, reachout to let me know how you're
engaging with this episode, andwhat topics you'd like to see
covered in the future. You canconnect with us on social media
are getting in touch with medirectly at Gabrielle at return
to joy.com to share your heart.
I'll see you in two weeks for anew episode.
Welcome to the return to joy podcast. I'm
your host, Gabrielle MichelLeonard. Here we're leading
people to cultivate joy throughstorytelling. We hope listening
will reveal pathways tounlocking the healing power of
connection, so that you can seeyour relationships and the world
around you transformed fromfractured into flourishing. Man,
(00:25):
it is always a joy and an honorto show up right here with you
guys. And this episode I'mreally excited about I've asked
my brother and executivedirector of wildfire network,
Taylor Rogers to interview me.
So wildfire network is aorganization that exists to help
the dreams of Jesus come true inand through his people. So it's
(00:48):
a beautiful collective ofdiverse people that are
responding to what God's put intheir heart to do in unique and
authentic ways. And I thought,man, who better to ask me some
questions about the heart behindreturn to joy than Taylor
Rogers, who has been so crucialand supporting me and the
(01:12):
development of this ministry.
Because if you didn't know,wildfire, not wildfire,
returning to joy, or rcj, forsure, it is not just this
podcast, but it actually is aministry. And as we continue to
listen to the Lord and beresponsive to God, what are you
building and doing, we're addingmore organizational structure
(01:36):
and more offerings and justshowing up with people. And it's
been a beautiful working thing.
And, and I'm just excited foryou to hear a little bit more of
the heart there. So let me stepout of the way so he can hear
this episode.
Taylor Rogers (01:51):
Okay, so I'm here in the wildfire network, podcast
recording studio with GabrielleLeonard, founder and starter of
a mission called returning tojoy. So I just said it was a
mission, I realize that's atechnical name for wildfire
network, ministry partners andpeople who are really part of
(02:13):
that network. But, you know, youmight talk about it as a church
or a ministry or movement, or Idon't know how you would talk
about or what you would say,returning to joy is, but that's
really my first question foryou. What is returning to joy?
Gabrielle Leonard (02:28):
It's a good question. To start off with some
practical one. What is returningto joy? That has been a question
that I've been asking the Lordfor the last two years.
Returning to joy is a responsivemovement to the Lord. It's a
movement space of bringing otherpeople into what it means to
(02:49):
walk relationally with God, inthe way in which he intended I
believe, even just from, fromcreation, you know, just for us
to walk in the relational intentof the Lord, where that affects
the way that we relate with oneanother, and the way that we
relate with with ourselves.
Taylor Rogers (03:05):
That's really That's a great answer. One of
the things I heard you say thatthat seemed like a pretty tight
description, was when you said,returning to joy as a responsive
movement. And then how did youfinish that off?
Gabrielle Leonard (03:21):
Yeah, that returning the joy comes from a
place of understanding that thevery, the very pain that we see
in the world, the things thatfrustrate us, the things that
are complex, that are hard, thethings that are ailments within
our very own soul, returning tojoy comes from this place of
recognition of, we're going torespond to the fact that the
(03:41):
Lord is actually aware of thosevery same things to and actually
has a redemptive plan andsolution for those things. Those
are not. And so because a lot oftimes, like I know I've done it,
doing it in different ways andunlearning we can try and go out
and do from the place that ismore responsive to pain than it
is to the presence of God inthat pain. Living from the
(04:02):
responsiveness of pain is notsustainable for what the Lord
wants to do in the earth, butliving it with responsiveness to
the heart of God to that pain issustainable. And so it's it's
returning to joy is thismovement by which we're trying
to disciple and teach and train.
How do you shift to doing thingsin that manner? And in that way,
Taylor Rogers (04:24):
if you're, if you're listening to this,
recording, you know, I'dencourage you to go back to the
beginning and listen toGabrielle's answer. Again, I
think in that you'll find apackage that includes salvation
that includes the kingdom thatincludes redemption, that
includes fellowship andcommunion and there's a lot of
things that often get framed inlike classical terms of
(04:46):
Christianese that have felt likeyou expressed in a very
authentic way, that to me echoesof the upper room when Jesus did
clearly express his own desire.
I've told you this so that myjoy may be in you and that your
joy may be complete. And andthis is the same one who endured
that pain of the cross. Yeah,not because of the pain, but for
(05:09):
the joy set before. Yeah. Thenext question I have has to do
with returning to joy right now.
What does returning to joy donow in terms of current
offerings and resources?
Gabrielle Leonard (05:23):
Yeah, right now, returning to joy offers
cultivate Joy sessions. Andthat's a space where people can
just have a one on one timewhere I'm like, facilitating
them in a conversation with theLord that really does end up
looking like the Lord, beingcounselor being like the good
being a good shepherd in atangible way, and also being
(05:43):
coached for them, where hereally do find he does something
that unlocks just what is neededwithin their heart. And so, so
every session ends up lookingdifferently, people can do just
a one off session, but you cando like several sessions with
those have also done, they'reoffering something called
showing up together sessions.
And it's basically for teams,that they feel a sense of a
(06:05):
disconnect, or there's just adesire for there to be a deeper
level of oneness among them,there is where they're like,
man, like, we don't want a falsesense of unity. We don't want to
have diverse voices at thetable, and then not know how to
(06:28):
utilize and bring those voicesout to the surface. And so those
sessions with teams, I think ithas really helped cultivate that
kind of environment that breedsspace for people to show up
together well, and so that'swhat those sessions are. And
then
Taylor Rogers (06:48):
as a as a ministry leader, who really
understands the purposes of God,and the beauty and effectiveness
of diversity in creation, andthen humanity as a reflection of
that, and really, the kingdom ofGod, as portrayed throughout
Scripture seems to also reflectthat is, you know, also a person
(07:11):
who is aware that, as a leader,I've often neglected to
implement that. And many of theenvironments in which I've been
led have have neglected toimplement that sort of
diversity. And and and I feellike right now there's an
awareness among church leaders,Christian leaders, yeah, Pastor
friends that I have, there's anawareness of a desire to
(07:34):
experience more of what God hasthrough the diversity of his
people. Yeah. But there seems tobe a lack of knowledge as to how
to do that, other than giving aperson of color or giving
someone a seat at the table. Andit, it does seem to be the case
(07:55):
that sometimes just bringingsomeone to a table with the same
settings as before, the sametable as before, sometimes ends
up causing hurt to that person,and you actually still miss out
for sure what God intends. Andit it sounds like, the kind of
sessions that you're talkingabout doing have been productive
(08:16):
or helpful for there being likean authentic, I think you said
authentic, where
Gabrielle Leonard (08:20):
there's not incongruent seas with like, the
value of the organization andwhat's actually being lived out
what's being experienced amongthe group. For sure.
Taylor Rogers (08:28):
That's cool. So sorry to interrupt you, we're
talking about the individualsessions. And then you were
talking about showing uptogether, which
Gabrielle Leonard (08:34):
is more of a group deal. Yeah. And then
there's a desire to put moreresources on the website. So I'm
really excited about thatthere's still things that are
being worked on something that'slike continually being worked on
is something I'm callinggrieving with God, because just
like the last like two years, Ithink multiple people would feel
(08:55):
a sense of resonance with thatstatement. But that's definitely
there's that's been one spacethat I've been in with the Lord
of wrestle and of him disciplingme in what it looks like to
grieve in His presence and comeout on the out on the other
side, like basically kind ofcontinue in that process and
(09:15):
rhythm and it looks differentfor everyone grieving does, but
there is there are things thatcan like help and continuing
along and so I'm excited aboutwhen that's available. But yeah,
Taylor Rogers (09:25):
I'm also excited about that. One of the things
that I have found in my own inmy own experience, having been
brought up majority culturewhite male, you know,
evangelical Christian, that thethe space for lament is short
(09:45):
lived, you know, we're extremelyquick with the tissues. If if
there there at all, yeah. Andmany other cultures, certainly
the African American community,I have witnessed really being
able to Be present in a grievingspace in a way that honestly, to
me looks more like the kinds ofthings I read about from the
(10:07):
Hebrew and the Jewish people,and Scriptures with regard to
mourning, grieving lament. Andso I would be excited for your
voice and for the ministry ofart rtj to be able to, to impact
to you know, not necessarilyinfiltrate, but to, to
(10:29):
germinate. Yeah, you know, intothe this zeitgeist that we're in
right now, because there is sucha need for lament and grieving.
And I think that there's a reallack of awareness as to, like,
how, or why so I'm very excitedfor that resource.
Gabrielle Leonard (10:50):
mean, to me, I think, even
Taylor Rogers (10:51):
like an individual perspective, but then
also in a corporate sense. Andyeah, what would you speak to
that for just a moment aboutkind of the the nature of
individual and corporate, andhow that comes into play, when
you think about resources, thereturn into joy would be,
Gabrielle Leonard (11:11):
yeah, there's definitely this place of a
constant both and that try tofunction in, there's an
awareness of, there's times whenyou've got to speak to the
individual, because the Lordsees the individual, he sees the
one. And, and there's somethingthat the Lord can DO and DOES
and one heart that sparkssomething, and another, and so
(11:34):
trying to be very much sointimate and specific in the way
we speak to the wind andproviding resources for the wind
in their own private time withthe Lord. But then also mindful
of, there's ways that we've donea disservice to, you know, most
devotionals are like, aredirected at like, hey, one
person reading this forthemselves. And it's, it's very
(11:54):
much so AI centric language. Andso there's, there's, yes,
there's a need. But then there'salso this balance, where it's
like, we also need, healing isalso a communal thing. It's not
just individual. And so there'sa need, you have to speak to the
community, and you have to speakwith God is dealt with, to what
God wants to do and is doingamong the whole, because I
(12:15):
actually find that sometimes thedisconnected that necessarily
feel some of the symptoms thatwe're finding in our own lives
as individuals are actuallybecause of the disconnect to the
whole, because there's a senseof cut off nests from the body.
And so there's a desire as wellto to make sure that we don't do
a disservice, but we serve welland provide resources that are
community minded of thinkinglike, No, we're talking to a
(12:37):
Wii, and we're serving a Wii,because that is also needed for
the health and wholeness of theone. And the, and the health and
wholeness of the one is alsoneeded for the health and
wholeness of the whole. And youknow, like, and so, when we read
scripture, to think about notjust our perspective and think
about okay, what, what role inplace, would we assign
(12:57):
ourselves, which is usually themain character, usually the
awesome one, but just thinkingabout? What would it look like
if we disinterred ourselves inthat store in the stories that
we're reading in Scripture andcentered someone else? And ask
the Lord Lord, like, what couldthis scripture be doing in this
person's heart, if this personis the center, and it wasn't,
and it wasn't me, those thingsonly strengthen our relationship
(13:20):
to to the Lord even,
Taylor Rogers (13:22):
I really appreciate that that's a great
way of understanding kind ofwhat lies behind what we see
which we just see the currentofferings or the forthcoming
ones. And sometimes they canseem to be aimed at different
groups like this is an eventthat's for the community, or for
a group or this is a groupexperience, or this is maybe
seems to be a high on thesurface, a highly individualized
(13:44):
personal spiritual journey.
Yeah. And I, you know, if youlook at our TJ and what it is,
it's difficult to pigeonhole asto one or the other. But I feel
like you just gave a reallyarticulate way of connecting
them and explaining why that'swhat we see. Yeah. So I
appreciate that.
Gabrielle Leonard (14:03):
One thing just to add a story to that,
because it is one of the placeswhere that's when thinking about
Scripture and Bible say wherewe're, where some of that's
coming from, is when I was inthe Philippines. There was at
one point when in in Manila,there's one point I'd like walk
down the sidewalk a little waysfrom from the home that I was
(14:23):
staying in. And I felt the Lordled me to open up the Scripture
and as I'm opening it up, andit's in it's one of David's
Psalms. It's, you know, slippingmy mind now in this moment, I
think maybe Psalms 13 or 16,where he's like, how long Oh,
Lord, you know, like, will youforget me? Well, my enemies rise
up against me, right? Like, notso not a narrative not connected
to David at different times. ButI remember reading that and I
(14:47):
started reading the Scripture.
And then all of a sudden, I gotme a couple of voices in knights
of the Lord said, Nope, startagain. And instinctively,
there's a sense of I've neverthought this way before, but
instinctively there is the senseof it. Oh, I get what's
happening. I'm David in thismoment. And I've just I've just
put myself as a Davidimmediately in a minute when he
said, Nope, start again. Istarted back up from the top.
(15:08):
And then I began to look around.
And I felt like he pointed outthis guy who was like, crouched
on his knees making, likeworking with cement. And he was
like, making bricks orsomething. And he said, I want
you to read this song from thatguy's perspective. And it was
like this. Okay, and so then nowif I'm reading The song was this
this guy's perspective? It evenasked me it beg the question, I
(15:29):
had to ask some hard questionsabout like, Wait, who am I? Do I
have a place in the story? ButI'm not David, this guy's David,
than where am I? You know, like,if this guy is crying out, Lord,
what is his look like? If he'scrying out, Lord? How long? Will
you forgive me? What does thatmean for my role in my
relationship? And is there evena sense of the Lord's response
is not delayed because the Lordhas delayed but there is a sense
(15:50):
of like he uses it were a partof his response in the earth. So
if there was just there was justa wrestle, regardless of where
you land, simply because of Dcentering myself in that story,
I had to wrestle in a way that Iwouldn't have had to wrestle
before. And so that just, it wasa striking moment for me that it
was never discipled in mebefore. And so it was just like,
(16:13):
whoa, what would that look likefor this to be one I definitely
felt a conviction of, I needthis to be a more regular
practice in my study and readingof the scriptures of not so
quickly centralizing myself inthe sense of this is about me,
I'm the main character here.
Taylor Rogers (16:29):
Go on a tour, so to speak. Yeah,
Gabrielle Leonard (16:31):
yeah. Yeah.
Taylor Rogers (16:33):
So I've heard you mention that God is often at
work in a person long beforeanyone can see it. Yeah. How was
God working in your life priorto returning to joy that we can
now see expressed in thisministry?
Gabrielle Leonard (16:49):
Oh, that's great question. There was one
story. I think it's connectedand like getting out to
something else, too. If if it'snot connected enough, you can
follow up. But one image that Ican't get out of my mind is, it
is I was in, I think I was incollege at this point. And I
came back home, I was at mydad's apartment. And I think my
(17:13):
little my little sister isthere. My older brother was
there. Possibly my older sisteras well, too. I think it was
pretty much everyone in myimmediate family, except for my
mom. And I remember there wasKim, what was going on, but
there was just chaos. Like,there, there was a very intense
argument that was going on. Ithink my little sister left the
(17:35):
house. I think for a secondthere actually, I actually think
we weren't sure if she ran awayweren't sure if we weren't sure
where she went in the in thelevel of intensity of that
moment. It was very much so itcould be factor that grace just
dipped. She just left and so andI remember in that moment, I
(17:55):
broke down to my knees and Ijust started weeping and crying
and last so like praying loudly,just loudly praying. And it
wasn't a show it wasn't I'mpretty sure like some preachers
some people in the moment wouldhave thought it was a show maybe
I don't know but it was justthis like I am so beyond
overwhelmed in this moment. Andall all I could do was pray like
(18:19):
all I could do all I could dowas pray and there is this sense
of powerlessness and there isthis sense of not supposed to be
this way it doesn't have to bethis way there is just this
discontent dislike like I don'tI'm so done with I didn't have
(18:41):
it didn't feel like this. Ididn't have any blaming there
wasn't someone in my mind oflike, whose fault it was, like I
said don't even necessarilyremember what all happened.
Taylor Rogers (18:50):
Or, or was there a person wrong or many wrongs?
There's just a sense of like,just feel like even this sense
of like,
Gabrielle Leonard (18:56):
I don't even feel separate from this I feel a
part of it very much. So a partit's not even like you all are
the issue and it's wish I couldget step out of this. But there
was this like, I think this wasthis heart cry of God Do you
hear? God? Where are you like,like, do you see this? And I
(19:16):
think those were moments thatthere's always been in me this
sense of God Do you see thediscontent the chaos and the
turmoil? Like of your people dosee and I'm not necessarily even
speaking specifically to speaklike we were all Christians in
that room but even just thinkingabout the like chaos of the
(19:37):
world like and it's like Godlike do you see this where
you're Where have your eye whereare your eyes here and but also
to this huge this outcry to himbecause there also was this
internal sense of like, only youhave the power to like, step in
here and I do think you actuallyare within earshot I actually do
(20:01):
think just thinking aboutthere's a little like, Hebrew
proverb, I think or somethinglike that when they're like,
they could tell how long a childhad been without their parent,
because it's like, if the childis barely calling out, and it's
a whimper, they know that thatparent has been gone has
abandoned that child for Lordknows how long because the
whimper the still the small Yelpis because the child doesn't
(20:24):
really believe an answer isgoing to come anymore. But the
child who's screaming loudlywho's like, you know, top of
your lungs still yelling outMom, mom, dad, Dad, are you
there? That mom, that parentthat dad is, is actually
probably not far gone? Becausethat child still believes that
it could that its cry could beanswered? And so I think there's
(20:46):
there is this. There is thiswrestlers always been this
wrestling this tinge and also acry, believing that, Lord, you
actually want to and will andare the only one that can answer
here. And you are the one thatwe need to answer. And I think
that in walking with the Lord,there's been this. He's taken
(21:10):
continually and still on thisjourney of realizing his answer.
And realizing he is with he isresponding. And even the promise
of like, I will give I like thehope that we long for, for the
Lord to accomplish, and even thesense of like his, his promise
(21:33):
and his solution in those placesof deepest darkness and pain of
him being like I am the answer.
And it just, there's aconnection for me. There's a
forever connection of thedeepest darkness in the world,
the deepest pain in the world,and the answer and response of
God.
Taylor Rogers (21:55):
That's awesome.
Thank you for sharing thatstory. I think that it is a
testimony to the faith that theLord had cultivated in you at
that point in your life, thatyou would be capable of feeling
(22:16):
the wrongness of thatdisconnection of that last one.
Right? Jesus hinted at that whenhe was talking about a lost
sheep. And then people werelike, Oh, it's a sheep that's
lost. What's the big deal? Yougot 10,000 sheep. In the story,
even Jesus talking about yougotta get 100 sheep. Yeah, one
loss. Yeah. You know, you get 10coins. You get one loss.
Gabrielle Leonard (22:40):
Yeah. Right.
Yeah.
Taylor Rogers (22:42):
But but the the heart of that series of stories
is when Jesus was like, Yeah,but you get two sons. And then
one gets lost. Man, you feelthat? Or at least at least God
as portrayed and the father ofthe prodigal son. Yeah, feels
that. Right. And I think thatit's your testimony to the
(23:03):
unique work and even callingthat God has given you that you
would be capable of feeling thatbrokenness in that moment.
Right. That is a reallyaccessible and like, it's, it's
actually, when I hear that I'mable to interject my own moments
of cry, longing, pain, whetherthey're my own or ones that I've
(23:26):
shared with other people. Inhearing that story. It's it's,
it's, it's inviting into that.
And then it also is inviting tothat same faith, that trust that
God is near. Yeah. And God isable and desiring to do
something about the pain thatI'm expressing. And I think
that's a wonderful way oftalking about the origin story
of returning to joy, where isthis coming from? That's where
(23:50):
it's coming from. So praise God.
Amen. That's, that's all thequestions that I had.
Gabrielle Leonard (23:59):
Thank you so much for interviewing me. If
you're hearing this message,you've listened to the entire
episode. And for that, I amdeeply grateful. I hope this
episode resonated with you andif it did help us out by sharing
this episode, and leaving areview on Apple podcasts, and
(24:19):
Spotify. Most importantly, reachout to let me know how you're
engaging with this episode, andwhat topics you'd like to see
covered in the future. You canconnect with us on social media
are getting in touch with medirectly at Gabrielle at return
to joy.com to share your heart.
I'll see you in two weeks for anew episode.
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