January 18, 2021 • 57 mins
Alicia, Mateo, Rohini, and Angus come back together for part one of their group session following the breakaway phase of the weekend intensive. We hear what can be described as a celebration and confirmation of the insights Mateo and Alicia have uncovered during their time with the Rewilders. They both reflect on past upset from a new perspective, while discussing a recent dinner out that would have "gone south" before their journey with Rohini and Angus began. Mateo was able to keep his cool, realizing he was actually just upset that he had to wait to eat, instead of assuming Alicia was doing something to make him feel irritated.
Alicia shared about her upset over Valentine's Day and her realization that it wasn't actually about the holiday at all. Instead it was about a shared responsibility communication breakdown that she feels confident they can sort out better next time one comes up. Rohini reflects on Alicia's significant anxiety reduction compared with when she first arrived.
Though they both share about their insights, we hear Alicia seeming a bit more confident in their steadfastness, while Mateo tees up questions and concerns we'll hear in the next episode. Will Mateo's insights last?
This episode explores:
- Releasing the internal narrative when showing up to relationship -- the value of presence
- Importance of realizing we have a narrative going on -- not a clear picture of reality
- Approaching the day with a blank slate
- Navigating low moods vs. thinking we shouldn’t have them anymore
- Reinforcing when to engage with each other and when not to
Show Notes
Wobbler: Angus begins the episode in a low mood, wearing his wobbler on his sleeve.
Flash in the pan: Angus's concern that Mateo may not stay with his insights. Were they just a "flash in the pan"?
Disney ending: A fairy tale ending rarely experienced in "real life".
Pop Rocks: Candy that explodes in your mouth; also the taste of discontent being replaced by wellbeing.
Podcast music
Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area. Episode 11 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity.
Feedback: info@therewilders.org
To leave questions and comments for Ask Anything Episodes Call: (424) 272-6497
Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rohini Ross (00:01):
This is Episode 11 Key Relationship Takeaways.
We're excited to let you knowthat we're going to be doing
some ask anything podcastepisodes. And so we'd love to
hear from you. If you have anyquestions about the podcast
(00:23):
about relationships in general,or any other questions that
you'd like us to answer, we'dlove for you to send them in.
And so you can send them in viaemail to info@therewilders.org
Or if you'd like to send in yourquestion anonymously, you can
call your question in424-272-6497. That's
(00:53):
424-272-6497.
In this episode, we're going tobe listening to segments of the
final session that we had withAlicia and Mateo, when we all
came back together after ourseparate sessions, and it's
(01:15):
really wonderful to hear whatthey're saying in their own
words, in terms of what they'veseen, and what they're taking
away with them.
Angus Ross (01:25):
Yeah, I think that this episode is wonderful. I
feel like this episode is kindof a celebration in a way, of
all that they've seen and allthat they've learned, and the
insights that they've taken onboard. It was really, it was
wonderful to be there. And, andI look forward to sharing it
(01:47):
with everybody through thismedium.
Rohini Ross (01:50):
And we do start off with you having a little bit of
a wobbler.
Angus Ross (01:54):
Oh, yeah, we did.
You thought you throw that infor good measure. What about
your wobblers I'm sure you musthave had the odd warbler here
and there.
Rohini Ross (02:04):
I have inner wobblers.
Angus Ross (02:06):
That's right. I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve.
Or roll my wobble on my sleeveanyway.
Low mood, low mood, reactive. Iguess my warning this morning
(02:36):
with them? Is it seems like theywere kind of both feeling a
little bit awkward. And perhapsthey won't even maybe even have
tested the water. In terms ofwhat it looks like to get become
intimate again. When I sayintimate just having a nice
(03:00):
feeling with one another or evendiscussed it. I don't know. I'm
just worried that yesterdaycould have just been a flash in
the pan.
Rohini Ross (03:08):
Oh, but I thought he said he saw something.
Angus Ross (03:11):
I felt like he did see something. I guess this is
all too good to be true. I guesscuz I'm in the low mood, without
sorts. I'm seeing my worldthrough that lens this morning.
seeing everyone in it throughthat lens coating all.
Rohini Ross (03:33):
So can we put that upside down?
Angus Ross (03:37):
Yeah. My Goodness! I sound like I sound like such a
diva.
Rohini Ross (03:49):
Now you know what I deal with?
Angus Ross (03:51):
I know, all you have to put up with
Rohini Ross (03:56):
On a regular basis.
Angus Ross (03:57):
But at least that's that's a healthier way for me to
negotiate that situation andfessing up to the fact that I'm
in a low mood. And evidently,I'm not taking it that
seriously. Although obviously,I'm a little concerned about
where our couple is at thatpoint. And who knows, I can't
(04:19):
even remember why I was out ofsorts that morning. But I
thought that's a good way tohandle it.
Rohini Ross (04:24):
I thought so. I think it's good to demonstrate
that we walk our talk.
Angus Ross (04:30):
Yeah, no, I guess I'd forgotten that I had that
experience thta morning. And Ithink part of it was probably I
don't know why I had thatconcern that this wasn't
holding.
Rohini Ross (04:45):
Well, I don't want to give too much away. But I
think that you were picking upon some things that were still
needing to be addressed.
Angus Ross (04:58):
I guess so.
Rohini Ross (04:59):
I think you're intuition was on track.
Angus Ross (05:02):
I was too attached to a positive outcome, I guess.
Rohini Ross (05:07):
Why?
Angus Ross (05:08):
In the sense that if I had an intuition or an
inclination that something wasnot quite right, that might be
at loggerheads with my agenda ofthere being a positive outcome,
what we were recording?
Rohini Ross (05:20):
And is that what was going on with your low mood?
Angus Ross (05:24):
I wonder? I don't know.
Rohini Ross (05:27):
And why are we so attached to a positive outcome?
Angus Ross (05:30):
I think that's just my ego. I think that my ego
would be inclined to tell methat. If we don't have a
positive outcome, then it wouldnot be so marketable. In terms
of our end product. I want mysentimental Hollywood ending.
Rohini Ross (05:48):
I'm much more of a European indie film goer myself.
Angus Ross (05:52):
You are! I tend to I tend to want something I want. I
want my plotline tied up with aribbon.
Rohini Ross (05:58):
You want the Disney ending?
Angus Ross (06:00):
I do want the Disney ending?
Rohini Ross (06:02):
Well, we don't get the Disney ending.
Angus Ross (06:04):
No, we don't get a Disney ending. But we get an
ending.
Rohini Ross (06:09):
We're getting close to the ending, where this is the
final session that we have withthem together. But we do have
the follow up sessions that takeus on quite the journey after
the intensive.
Angus Ross (06:24):
And who's to say it's not a Disney ending, maybe
it's it's one of those thoseexperimental productions at a
Disney producer might put moneyinto it's a new breed of Disney
ending.
Rohini Ross (06:39):
Well, it's real life. It's not Disney. There's
one other thing that I wanted tosay just about navigating the
low mood. I wasn't particularlycompassionate as I listened back
to that I'm basically silent.
And I think that, as I don'tremember the specific moment,
but I can recognize in myselfsometimes how I'm doing an
(07:02):
inward iral moods. And I'mguessing that that was what was
going on. For me at that pointin time. I was probably thinking
I can't believe this. We'regoing into our final session.
What do you mean, you're out ofsorts? And the best thing I
could do at that point in timewas to just bite my tongue.
Angus Ross (07:22):
Yeah. And yet listening back. I feel like I
can hear your inward iro. Ifthat probably doesn't make any
sense whatsoever. But readingbetween the lines or listening
between the lines, I would saythat was pretty apparent
Rohini Ross (07:39):
I'm fessing up to it.
Angus Ross (07:43):
And I think that I'm kind of in that moment fessing
up to the fact that my ego isprobably got the wheel. And I'm
being gripped by a low mood. AndI don't have to take that
seriously.
Rohini Ross (07:56):
Yeah. And oh, sorry.
Angus Ross (07:58):
Well, based on on the levity that I was probably
sharing with you at that pointwas evident that I wasn't taking
it very seriously.
Rohini Ross (08:07):
And that we were able to just sort of air that
out and move on.
Angus Ross (08:12):
Yeah, taking it not taking it seriously, but
obviously feeling quite pissedat the same time.
Rohini Ross (08:19):
You or me?
Angus Ross (08:20):
Me!
Rohini Ross (08:22):
And I was at when I was doing the hike yesterday
with our eldest daughter Akasha.
She said to me something that Ifound kind of helpful, because
she said that you and her havesomething in common where when
you're an upset, you tend toexternalize or direct it
externally. Whereas our youngerdaughter and myself, we tend to
(08:43):
go more internal with our upset.
And so it helped me see like,Oh, you just tend to put words
on an experience that I probablywouldn't talk about. And I don't
really need to take that tooseriously, either. It's just the
way that you're working throughit.
Angus Ross (09:01):
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, is there's no right orwrong way to process that
emotion. And I think thatprobably we get ourselves into
difficult difficulty by feelinglike we have to process it and
make meaning out of it. I thinkYeah, we're cash and I probably
do have a tendency to, to sortof verbally flame fro
Rohini Ross (09:26):
She was remembering how every time she would have a
big school project that shewould have this massive
meltdown. And then she wouldjust go do it.
Angus Ross (09:34):
Right, which is very similar to how I often do
it on so many levels. Thepodcast included. That's how I
kind of get from A to B.
Rohini Ross (09:47):
And for me to be able to see that more neutrally
and just recognize that's justhow things unfold for you and I
don't need to take it personallyand it is part of your creative
process. Yeah,
Angus Ross (10:01):
I'm just imagining it from your point of view. It's
kind of like watching some sortof comedy unfold. If I was to
watch myself on a movie screenbehaving this way, I would
probably find it quite funny.
Rohini Ross (10:19):
Next time is going on, I'm gonna have to play the
Benny Hill soundtrack in mymind.
Angus Ross (10:25):
Something of that ilk, maybe something a bit more
contemporary.
Rohini Ross (10:29):
Like, what?
Angus Ross (10:30):
I don't know
Rohini Ross (10:31):
one of the tick tock themes you listen to?
Well, anyway, shall we move on?
Yes. All right, so we'll go intothe first segment of the session
with them.
Mateo (10:52):
So for me, it's been very eye opening, and I, I can
definitely see how my mind andthe stories that I've created to
shortcut, you know, theinevitable of like a
conversation or how things aregonna play out, I always play it
(11:12):
out in my mind first, and it'slike a rehearsal. It's a
rehearsal, right? I've rehearsedeverything. And now, I kind of
understand how that can bedetrimental, because you're
approaching every situation thatyou know what the outcome is
going to be, instead ofapproaching it with an open
mind. So for me, it's kind ofbeen, you know, second thing is
just like releasing thatnarrative that I built, in my
(11:33):
own mind, that really hasaffected her and the
relationship. And I mean, evengoing beyond just our
relationship, I can definitelysee how, you know, creating
these powerful stories in yourmind can alter the real reality
that you may be facing, right?
You build this narrative that,you know, the outcome is going
(11:55):
to be negative, but it could bethat the other person is, you
know, just being their normalself, and you're interpreting it
like there's some alter, analter reason, or I can't think
of the word right now. But...
Rohini Ross (12:12):
Ulterior motive?
Mateo (12:13):
Ulterior motive, exactly.
To the line of questioning thatyou're getting, rather than just
letting it come to you, and youjust be normal and not
following, you know, the, thosepowerful narratives that you've
created in your own mind.
Rohini Ross (12:29):
It sounds like you see the benefit of showing up
kind of fresh and open andreally seeing what's there. So,
Mateo (12:37):
Yeah, definitely.
Absolutely. Now, I mean, thatdoesn't mean that like
throughout a conversation, itmight not lead a certain way for
me to be like, Okay, this couldbe getting annoying, but at
least coming into a conversationwith a clean mind. And no, like
I said, not listening to thosestories that I've built, in my
(12:59):
mind. I think that's ainvaluable asset to have.
Rohini Ross (13:11):
For this episode, we're going to be sharing a lot
of the takeaways that Alicia andMateo got from spending time
with us when to illustrate whatthey saw. But also, what they
saw is very universal and can begeneralized. So we hope that
it's helpful to everybodylistening.
Angus Ross (13:29):
Yeah. And so obviously, what leaps out here
is how he's willing now torelease the narrative that he
may bring to the table withinany context or conversation. And
I think that what he'sultimately pointing to, he's
seeing the value of what itmeans to be present with my
(13:51):
partner. So I think of the wayswhere I might, I mean, an
example that I could give abouthow I would not be present,
let's say, for argument's sake,if I was going to go and teach a
seminar, that in the past, Iwould have spent a great deal of
time prepping for it, kind ofalmost creating a script for it.
(14:14):
And so doing putting a lot ofpressure on myself to perform.
And I've now since learnedthat's not advisable. The best
way for me to show up and teacha seminar is to be really in the
moment and be really engagedwith my audience. In actual
fact, when I show up that way,there are a lot more engaged,
it's when I go to script, thatthey tend to start yawning and
(14:35):
falling asleep, or worse, stillreact in a negative way. But for
him to be able to see that andrealize that he is not only
putting himself under a greatdeal of pressure. He's keeping
his analytical machinery fullyengage. But he's actually the
expectation is for her to fallinto alignment with his script
(14:57):
that he's created and that anytransgresion on that front is
going to be problematic andcontentious as far as he's
concerned. So it's almost likehe's waiting for her to slip up,
and woe betide if she does. Andhe's gonna have probably a great
deal of judgment, if in effect,she does slip up. So it's good
to see that the greatest thingthat he can bring to that
(15:19):
situation is to be able tolisten and to listen deeply and
try and put himself in hershoes. And to be empathic in
that way. We'll be one step awayfrom compassion, and the love
that really is their innateessential selves in that
relationship. So I think it's areally fantastic thing for him
(15:41):
to see and to grasp hold off atthis point.
Rohini Ross (15:43):
Absolutely. In the next segment, we hear more about
him realizing the importance ofpresence and the importance of
listening. But for him to beable to recognize that he has a
narrative running, I thinkthat's so key. Because once we
realize that's what's going on,we realized that the narrative
isn't truth. Before this, hedidn't even realize he had the
(16:03):
narrative running. He thought hewas just seeing reality as it
is. And now at least he'srecognizing, oh, he's been
seeing the reality that he'smaking up in his mind. And that
isn't necessarily what's reallygoing on.
Angus Ross (16:16):
Yeah, it's huge.
He's stepping out of the matrix.
Rohini Ross (16:19):
That's right. Well, let's hear his next part.
Mateo (16:29):
You know, wanting to be in the conversation, and
actually listen, is somethingthat I've experienced the past,
you know, day or two, and sheis, you know, I'm pushing away
that so I don't know, then thatthis conversation is going to be
so it's, it's allowing me to bemore patient, and not just
tapping my foot and being like,okay, you know, we've hit step
one, two, and three, and waitingfor number four, because that's
(16:51):
when, you know, shit startsrolling down. Oh, so that's been
very cool.
Rohini Ross (16:56):
That's great. that sounds freeing.
Mateo (16:58):
Yeah.
Angus Ross (16:59):
Yeah, that's really interesting way of putting it
because that makes me see howand I definitely feel like I've
been guilty of that in the pastand see how when we have a very
strong narrative, and we almosthave a script that we bring into
play with that narrative. Andwe're kind of not really
connected, we're not evenpresent to hear the other person
what they got to say, we're kindof like, just waiting for the
(17:20):
narrative to play out. And theway that we perceive it should
play out.
Mateo (17:24):
Yeah,
Angus Ross (17:24):
There's a disconnect just right there.
Mateo (17:26):
So rewatching your shitty movie over? The person next to
you, maybe, maybe into it, it'sprobably into it. And you're
just like, Oh, my God, I can'twait for this to end. All right.
She's kissing him the first timehere. You know, so it's, yeah,
it's approaching it with a freshperspective, or not even a
(17:47):
perspective at all.
Angus Ross (17:49):
Because it's so easy, based on the narrative
that we're wanting just toassume we know what the other
person is thinking and howthey're going to behave and act.
And for my speaking for myself,invariably, I'm so off base in
terms of what I'm thinking of myyoung, you know, my youngest
daughter at times, I would like,totally think I know what she's
going to do next. And I'd becompletely off base.
Mateo (18:11):
Yeah. And I think that's what builds like a cynical
asshole is, you know, just,they're so convinced with their
story that they're so jaded fromlife and don't allow themselves
to experience life and new, newexperiences. So I could
definitely see how, you know,it's definitely that, that cynic
(18:33):
and it's like, Okay, all right,let's approach the day with kind
of a blank slate, but a blankslate to allow things to come to
us. Right. So it's kind of cool.
Rohini Ross (18:53):
I love how Mateo is able to really see how jaded he
had become in the relationship.
And that, even after this fairlyshort time, of settling down
having time with us having timeto connect with Alicia, he's
able to approach her in therelationship from a much more
open hearted and open mindedspace.
Angus Ross (19:18):
Yeah, I think that I love what he's said about what
was the term that he used iskind of like how I heard it,
he's gets to reboot each day's anew day. And he can let go the
script, just to be conscious ofthat alone allows him to show up
and be fully engaged and presentwith her. And to see the
(19:42):
throughout it all, we all haveour own separate realities. And
letting letting go the need toanticipate what that means. And
just show up and try and youknow, try and be present, I
think is huge.
Rohini Ross (19:58):
And it's a great reminder for all of us to
recognize that we're spendingmost of the time living in our
condition, thinking, living inour story that isn't necessarily
being present to what is, andhow much better life is when we
get out of our head and just getinto the present moment.
Angus Ross (20:18):
Yeah. And get to see how we do you're right spend so
much of our life in anticipationof what we believe will be
happening next, based on ourconditioned conceptual mind,
whether and in and in reality,what a far better way to be is
just to be fully open toanything. And that's kind of
(20:40):
what's exciting about life is wedon't know what's going to
happen next. But we spent somuch of our time trying to
anticipate exactly what is goingto happen next and, and kind of
really miss out on what is thewhat is in actual fact taking
place.
Rohini Ross (20:56):
Yeah, not only do we miss out on the experience of
being present, but we also missout on really being able to hear
that inner guidance that isavailable to us when we're
present is not available to uswhen we're caught up in our
head. But when we're reallypresent in the moment, we can
tap into that.
Angus Ross (21:11):
Yeah, isn't it interesting to think that our
intuition is much more readilyavailable to us when the
analytical machinery isdisengaged? And it can really
only disengage itself when whenwe're fully present and
listening deeply within thecontext of a relationship being,
you know, in partnership withsomeone else?
Rohini Ross (21:31):
Well, let's hear from Alicia.
Angus Ross (21:33):
Sounds good.
Rohini Ross (21:47):
How about you Alicia?
Alicia (21:49):
I think for me, just kind of reflecting on all of it.
And I was holding onto lastnight, I feel like we've been so
blessed to be given thisopportunity to really do this
whole process and try to like,almost reset our relationship
and get a second chance of beingnewlyweds because we never
really got that chance. BecauseI was traveling a lot. And for
me, I think that every singlecouple should go through this
(22:11):
process. And not in that momentthat they're like, Oh, no, now
we have a problem. But from thevery beginning, because I think
from the personal growthperspective, you just learn so
much more about yourself, andthen how to interact not only
with your spouse, but everybodyin your life, and to not make up
certain things or, you know, wehave a conversation and I'm dead
(22:32):
set on my thinking. And I kindof shut you down to realize that
I could still have my strongthinking, but I have to approach
it that way. And I can almostopen my mind to potentially
seeing it from anotherperspective and actually
changing my hardcore decision.
And even just like seeing thingsand you know, everyone's gonna
go through their ups and downsand moods. And that's it that's
inevitable, but not taking itpersonally, even though you
(22:55):
think it's a personal attack,even though you think you're
being judged, because I know,that's something that you know,
that I suffer from a lot. Like,I'm always like, Oh my god,
they're judging me on something,just to realize that it's not
me. And I can control that I cancontrol like how I perceive that
and just walk away and just belike, okay, like, I don't have
to do it. And then just knowingthat, like, you know, we spoke
about a higher power and thespirituality of things and just
(23:16):
to realize that that's a safetynet. And that even though we
think that we have to be incontrol, sometimes you don't
have to be in control. And youknow, your own personal
navigation system will lead youto what is gonna get done, and
it's gonna get done when it getsdone. Yeah.
Rohini Ross (23:30):
A lot lighter that way.
Alicia (23:31):
It's a lot lighter that way very tranquil that way.
Rohini Ross (23:34):
Yeah, exactly.
That's great.
Alicia (23:36):
Yeah. So just thinking like, you know, work tomorrow,
for instance, like I have thisrunning to do list and I was
remember thinking usually onSundays, I get bad anxiety,
like, Oh, my God, Monday'scoming, right. And then now I'm
kind of just in that perspectivelike that to do list will get
done. I don't have to likestress it now. It'll get there
when it gets done. And it'll getdone next week. And just go with
(23:57):
it that way. So that way, Idon't put myself through all
these crazy emotions and putsome strain on like my heart and
my stress.
Rohini Ross (24:02):
Exactly. Yeah, that's fantastic.
Angus Ross (24:09):
What stands out for me in this segment, listening to
Alicia is just her general stateof mind seems to be there for a
soul to see with her level ofenthusiasm for this whole
intensive experience. And she'stalking about, I don't know,
(24:30):
this is how I heard it, butshe's talking about how couples
should or all couples should gothrough this at some point in
their relationship. Almost likewith our car, we set up on our
calendar to do the service every30,000 miles, it will be good to
do something along those linesin relationship, just as a
(24:53):
reminder just as a tune upbecause we're constantly being
exposed to the realm of ourconceptual mind and try to live
our lives in that way, there areso many blind spots as far as
that's concerned. So it's a goodreminder. And I love that she
picked that up on and I lovedhow enthusiastic she seems,
(25:16):
which is an indicator to me thatour mind has got pretty sacral
through the course of thisweekend.
Rohini Ross (25:22):
Yeah, I think it's hard to really convey what
happens in an intensive becauseit's not in the words, her
enthusiasm, her feeling ofwellbeing her open heart, the
same with Mateo, his open heart,his ability to see things fresh
(25:42):
and new. I mean, they're talkingabout it, but we got to sit with
him and experience how that wascoming from inside of them. And
so we're just doing our best toconvey that in the best way that
we can. But it's not happeningfrom the words they're touching
into that deeper place inside ofthemselves that is intangible
(26:03):
that is their essence. Andthey've clearly both been
impacted by that.
Angus Ross (26:07):
Yeah, I mean, you could you could feel the
discontent on the day that theyarrived. You could feel that
discord, it was palpable. Andnow that's been replaced with
well being you can you can tasteit. It's really beautiful.
Rohini Ross (26:24):
What does it taste like?
Angus Ross (26:26):
It's got a sort of sweet and soft center that
nevertheless explodes witheuphoric flavor.
Rohini Ross (26:36):
Sounds good.
Angus Ross (26:41):
And with some very distinctive notes of love in
there,
Rohini Ross (26:46):
it makes me think of those candies that have those
things that sparkle in yourmouth.
Angus Ross (26:51):
That's true.
Rohini Ross (26:51):
You know what it does thing? You know, you eat
it? And then it kind of
Angus Ross (26:54):
is this sort of explosive candy? Yeah.
Rohini Ross (26:57):
I've eaten chocolate with it.
Angus Ross (26:58):
I remember, I think I gave one of those to my dog
years ago.
Rohini Ross (27:01):
No, that is so mean.
Angus Ross (27:04):
Ultimately, I think he quite enjoyed it. But it was
nevertheless quite peculiar tohim.
Rohini Ross (27:09):
How old were you?
Angus Ross (27:10):
I think it was 12 unexpected, isn't it?
Rohini Ross (27:13):
It is, I'm glad your dog was okay. One other
thing I did want to say aboutAlicia is that she is clearly
experiencing much less anxiety.
And I think that was one of thekey things that she got to see
during this time was how muchshe was buying into her anxious
(27:35):
thinking and how that wasdriving her, and how much
pressure that was creatinginside of her. And that was
obviously having an impact onher mood. And so when she had
that experience, where thefeeling of anxiety lifted off of
her, to me, that was a reallygreat sign that she was no
longer identifying with thosethoughts and able to be more
(27:57):
present. And in that space,she's clearly got more
perspective, about not takingMateo's low mood behavior
personally, she's able to seethat's a reflection of his state
of mind. And it's not about her.
And so I think both of thosethings, being able to live life
with less anxiety by notidentifying with those thoughts,
(28:19):
and having perspective on hislow mood behavior is really
going to serve her well in therelationship.
Angus Ross (28:25):
Yeah, I mean, how cool is that?
Rohini Ross (28:29):
And now we can hear Mateo having a click moment.
Angus Ross (28:32):
All right.
Mateo (28:40):
Yeah, and it's been said, I mean, this weekend, a lot
where you, just said it whereyou can't affect someone else's,
like mood. And Angus said it alot. And it kind of just clicked
with me right now and likeweird. analogies, like there's
no remote control where I canjust hit him be like, Alicia
sad, Alicia angry But in what itreally is, is whatever I'm
(29:04):
saying in that moment, could youknow, like, vice versa, it's
easier for me to talk about itthis way. She's saying something
to me, she doesn't have thatremote control that's making me
feel that way. It's, you know,hearing the words and then
attaching it to that narrative,again, a negative narrative or a
(29:26):
strong narrative in general,which then creates my mood, or
my reaction, which is reallyinteresting, because then it's
pretty much like self-Inducedanxiety, right, or self-induced
anger, sadness, because, youknow, you get this thought in
your mind is something sad andthen you run with it and then
(29:46):
you think of all the otherthings that make you sad and you
just spiraling right rather thanjust, Hey, you know, there's no
narrative don't create one.
Don't fall back into an oldnarrative. Just, you know, just
process it. Kind of like Youknow, with meditation, the the
thought comes and you just pushit away, like thanks for
stopping by, I'll talk to youlater. And it's just really
interesting. It just kind ofmade sense to remote control.
Angus Ross (30:11):
I had this, this support for myself, it's almost
like, you know, when you go, ifI could go shopping and I'd be
in a certain mood, I would shopfor different things. But if I
went through like a supermarketin a certain mood, I would like
be throwing certain things inthe bag. But if I'm in a low
mood, like my mood is justlooking for things that
correlate to that feeling. So Ihave a little bit of that
(30:31):
judgment a little bit of that,it operates in a way.
Mateo (30:39):
That's really interesting.
Angus Ross (30:40):
Before you know it, you're laden with crap...
Mateo (30:45):
Johnnie Walker donuts...
Rohini Ross (30:56):
Well, I guess he actually was listening to you.
And you were telling him in allkinds of different ways where
his experience was coming fromand how it wasn't being caused
by her.
Angus Ross (31:06):
That was that if ever there was a cause of angels
moment, that was for me inlistening back to that, because
yeah, I threw everything at him.
But the kitchen sink, I failedin that respect. But what's so
interesting is that it took onecomment from Alicia to make him
suddenly realize, I don't know,maybe it was kind of an egoic
(31:31):
thing is like, Wow, she's gotsomething here. Maybe she's seen
this. And she's obviouslyevidently drunk the Kool Aid.
Maybe there is something hereafter all, so that clicked
moment for him was like, I guessthat was the straw that broke
the camel's back. He finallylined up all the dots. But he
got boy, did he fight that?
Rohini Ross (31:51):
What a great metaphor. I mean, he came up
with that metaphor himself. It'sa really clear indicator that he
understands that she can't causehis experience.
Angus Ross (32:00):
Yeah, I mean, it's like everything led up to that
moment, he finally got it. Hefinally we got to witness him
have the insight real time,which I think is fantastic. And
just again, just goes to showhow powerful metaphor is in
terms of how you explainsomething that really is
formless.
Rohini Ross (32:17):
And we can't be attached to where they get that
click moment from.
Angus Ross (32:22):
I know, I don't take any ownership for that trip
moment whatsoever.
Rohini Ross (32:25):
Me neither...
Angus Ross (32:26):
In fact, I feel a little bit bereaved of
ownership, it was more to dowith Alicia, or explanation that
may be, as I say, it was thestraw that broke the camel's
back. But thank goodness we gotthere in the end. That's
fantastic.
Rohini Ross (32:39):
Yeah, no, it's really exciting. And I quite
like your shopping cart metaphortoo
Angus Ross (32:46):
Filled with Johnnie Walker and donuts, as he says,
Rohini Ross (32:50):
Mine would be filled with chocolates and
chips.
Angus Ross (32:54):
I don't know what mine will be filled.
Rohini Ross (32:57):
So even though he's had his click moment, what we
talk about next, I think it'sreally important is that we can
have an insight, but there'sstill going to be a learning
curve as we integrate thatinsight into our life.
Angus Ross (33:11):
Yeah, no, I mean, even as he was having this sort
of wonderful moment, there was apart of me realizing, you know,
that's just one wonderfulmoment, there will be plenty of
blind spots in your future. Sodon't let's get carried away
here. But nevertheless, youcan't unsee what he's seen.
Rohini Ross (33:30):
Exactly.
Mateo (33:40):
Now, yeah, it's really cool. And, and just kind of
knowing that I understand to,it's like, it's an exercise, and
you kind of have to remindyourself, it's not this thing,
where it's like, oh, we just,you know, snap our fingers. And
it's working. It's, you know,you're going to have those
moments where, you know, you'regoing to start building that
narrative, but it's important tobe able to snap and understand
(34:01):
that it's just a narrative.
Alicia (34:03):
It's just to listen innocently from like, the start
where there is they could havemade something in your head, but
it wasn't going there. It wasjust like an innocent
conversation, too. So it'sbetter to kind of look at it
that way.
Angus Ross (34:14):
Yeah, and it's also really good to sort of, to
reflect on what you just said isabout, it's not something that's
just gonna like, you're gonnasnap out and, and change
overnight. And I think that alot of personal growth
workshops, probably try and giveyou that magic bullet and you
think you put everything figuredout. I'm gonna go into my life
now and everything is gonna bepeachy. And then what happens is
(34:37):
when it's not peachy, like, Oh,I completely fucked up. It's
like, I can't, you know, I'm notgonna be able to get through my
life. I need to find somethingelse. I need to find the next
thing. But this is what thisunderstanding is sort of
practical is because we'resaying actually, you know, we're
all human beings. We're going tohave those moments we're gonna
relapse back into our thinking.
We're going to take each otherand ourselves personally, but
we're just going to get betterat coping with it. We're gonna
(34:59):
get a lens for it, we're goingto see it for what it is, you
know, as you say, it is likethat muscle that starts to
develop over time. And that's amuch healthier outlook than
thinking, yeah, I need thatmagic bullet. Yeah. If it
doesn't work, what does that sayabout me? Maybe? beyond doubt.
Alicia (35:21):
Yeah, definitely. And I think for us, at least, we both
had these aha moments. I thinkthat the through this past
weekend, but I think it from theoutside looking in, it was
really cool to see that like hewas getting very anxious last
night at dinner. And typicallywhat would have occurred is then
the rest of the night's ruin.
And then he's done. And he'supset about and then I'm like,
Great now, somehow I hadsomething to do with it. But
(35:42):
even yesterday, when yourealized you were getting that
angry thing, you kind of resetyourself. And we left that right
then and there at that table.
And we continued on and stillhad a great night, regardless of
the fact like we didn't let anyof the little bs for 10 minutes
engross and just got to enjoyit. And got to enjoy the rest of
the night.
Mateo (36:01):
Yeah, I just realized that, you know, I was upset in
the moment at my situation ofhaving to wait so long for food
and when that, you know, she didask me about, you know, this
process. And usually, then I'dsay, Man, she's crying, right?
Because I'm in a low mood whenshe's crying for something.
She's not just, you know,innocently asking me about these
(36:23):
questions. And when I got it,there was that moment of like,
oh, my god, she's crying. Butthen, like I said, I, I took
back, and I was like, Nah, man,she's not, I'm just really
pissed off, not feeling well,and knows it was really cool. It
was really cool. And I amexcited to strengthen that
(36:46):
muscle.
Rohini Ross (36:53):
I'm really glad that you emphasize the
importance of the learningcurve. Because it's really nice
to have these experiences wherewe get clarity, we get a glimpse
of what's available. But inorder to make it sustainable,
there's typically a learningcurve for people in order to
(37:13):
integrate that understanding.
And so it's important to helpprepare them as they go back
into their life as to howthey're going to navigate that
learning curve, and to not havethese unrealistic expectations
that Oh, now they've got it allfigured out, everything's going
to be nice and easy all thetime. What they've got, in terms
of the work ahead of them is toreally put into practice
(37:39):
everything that they've seen inthis intensive and to show how
it plays out in real life. Andthe example at the restaurant, I
think, is a really great exampleof how they're already doing
that. And they were able to havethat experience, but not have it
derail their evening, he wasable to recognize that he was in
a low mood, and that's where hisnegative thinking was coming
(38:02):
from, and that he didn't need toget on board with it. And Alicia
was able to not take hisbehavior personally. And so
something that might have reallycreated a down hill spiral for
them actually ended up, youknow, being molehill, and not a
mountain.
Angus Ross (38:22):
Yeah, and I love the way that he's referring to his
learning, being analogous with amuscle that he's developing. And
it was great that they had thatexperience in the restaurant,
because it was a small littlereference point that now will
hopefully be something that theycan access at a point in the
future when there is a there isa bigger blind spot that will
(38:44):
come their way which isinevitable. But, you know, in
the way that he's talking aboutthat muscle development, for me,
that's it's more about theawareness that is taking hold.
And it's not a magic bullet. Andit's not a technique. It's not
something he can put in his toolbelt. It's an awareness of how
(39:07):
the mind works and operates andhe's can see this is a train of
thought that I don't necessarilyneed to get on now. And if I do
that's going to be a reflectionof my state of mind has probably
gone South so I can kind of likeweather that storm. I'm much
better equipped now to weatherweather that storm when it
emerges and the reference to therestaurant is a good example of
(39:28):
that.
Rohini Ross (39:28):
Yeah, so far, so good.
Angus Ross (39:30):
So far, so good.
Rohini Ross (39:32):
And in the next segment, I talk more about how
progress looks which can looksomewhat paradoxical.
Angus Ross (39:43):
Yes, it and I think that it's in that paradox, that
we get to question ourselves andwe get to grow and learn
Rohini Ross (40:02):
What you're both describing is that you both had
sort of a shift inunderstanding. And when we have
a shift and understanding, wesee life differently. So that's
what you're experiencing really,oh, I'm not bothered by her
eating. So from thisunderstanding, you were bothered
by her eating from thisunderstanding, well, no problem,
it's fine. Now what happens atthis level of understanding,
when you get these stabilized,it will feel worse than it felt
(40:25):
at this level of understanding,because your sensitivity to it
has gone up, it will feel soless disturbance is going to
feel bigger than it used to feeldown here. This is making sense
to you the reason I'm sayingbecause it can be kind of a
shock and can feel like thatyou're backtracking. But it's
(40:45):
actually an important measure ofprogress. Because what would
have felt normal or just, youknow, whatever, and not a big
deal before is now going to betapping you on the shoulder and
you're noticing that, to realizethat oh, I am stirred up now,
like, you're gonna get aware ofthe warning signals sooner, and
they might feel a little worse.
But that's actually a goodthing, because it's waking you
(41:07):
up?
Mateo (41:10):
Yeah, it's like we've built up a tolerance for
removing the tolerance.
Rohini Ross (41:15):
Exactly, exactly.
So you don't want thattolerance.
Mateo (41:20):
Let's not buy chips.
Rohini Ross (41:23):
In a good state of mind, it'll be not a problem.
But when she heard chip eatingstarts bugging you, you're gonna
realize like, Oh, I'm stirredup, because she doesn't have the
remote control. Right?. I'mstirred up, like, that's gonna
be one of your warning signals.
Maybe that's like, Oh, I'm in abad state of mind.
Angus Ross (41:40):
Yeah, we're gonna get more tuned to our own
personal state of mind, we'll berealizing when we're stirred up.
And I think that's the tendencyis to feel like, Oh, god, my
mood at this moment is reallyamplified. What does that say
about me, that's the sort of oldnarrative that we were running.
But really all we're just muchbetter equipped to notice it
(42:01):
more. And I think that's wherethe change and the muscle
development camp kicks in, is wejust get to see our mood in
certain situations. And then wedon't necessarily, you know,
we're not less well, far lesslikely to run with it, although
there will initially be thattendency to judge it, oh, I
shouldn't be beyond this, Ishouldn't be having this, this
reaction, those those old neuralpathways are compelling. So, you
(42:24):
know, that's gonna be quitetypical to begin with.
Rohini Ross (42:26):
Yes, I like that, what you talked about in terms
of tolerance, it's like ifyou've been walking with a rock
in your shoe, and just used toit, like, learn how to live with
a rock in your shoe, you takethe rock out, your foot feels
really good. It's like, this isgreat, but then you get a little
rock, and you see, like, Oh,this really hurts now, well, you
wouldn't even notice that littlerock before, because you have
the big rock in your shoe. Soit's like, but it's a good
thing. You want to notice thatthe rocks there, so you can take
(42:48):
it out sooner, which would meantake care of yourself. And, and
in terms of letting the mindsettle. Like, it's what we're
sharing is so simple, becauseit's really about learning how
to help yourself and let yourmind settle. And you figure out
what that is, by listening realtime to what makes sense to you.
So if you know that when themind is stirred up, it's not its
(43:09):
natural state, you have to workat it, like you said, you know,
you have to work at thatnarrative to keep it going. When
you're realizing that's what'sgoing on, you'll know real time
what to do, when that'shappening. Because if you're in
the middle of work, you'll dosomething different than if
you're at home. And maybe youcould go walk the dog, like you
were saying, but you'll kind ofrealize and be on the learning
(43:31):
curve of what helps me when mymind gets stirred up. Maybe it
is going to be you know,meditation or something in that
moment, but it's not never goingto be one thing. And the power
isn't in the technique that youuse the power is and
understanding what's going on.
And that's Oh, I've got astirred up mind. And then if you
disengage from that in whateverway you choose to, it's going to
(43:52):
naturally settle and even if youengage with it and run with it,
because I still do that.
Eventually I'm going to stop wehave to start we don't do it
forever and eventually My mindis going to settle so I might
have suffered a lot longer if Ireally run with it but it's not
the end of the world and youjust start to see like oh the
natural state of the mind is tocome back to peace and when
(44:16):
we're at peace, the world ourrelationships, our work our
life, it's looks good and we caneven if there is something
challenging, we can figure outwhat to do in that situation.
When our mind is stirred up.
Life can be great and it doesn'tlook like it it looks terrible
because we're just looking at itthrough that lens of a stared at
mind. So you both will just geta feel for what you're how
(44:36):
you're looking at life like am Ilooking at it through the
stirred up state of mind if I amI can't take my thinking
seriously right now I'm a littlecrazy. If I'm looking at it from
a, you know, a nice peacefulstate of mind. We know that
because of our feeling state andwe can kind of trust ourselves
and trust our thinking and we'llyou know the best of us will
come out at those times. WhatI've noticed too, and what
(45:02):
people talk about is that whenthe mind is more settled, so I
love what you're recognizingthat you can be stirred up even
to is thinking about somethinggood. But when your mind is more
settled, just life impacts usmore like we feel the beauty of
the ordinariness of life, likewe look at this, and if we're
gonna really start up mine, wewouldn't even notice this view.
(45:22):
But in a peaceful state of mind,like, Wow, look at that. It's
amazing, we feel it, like wefeel the beauty of that and, and
everyday life has that capacityto impact us in beautiful ways.
But when we're really stirredup, it's like, can't get
through, nothing really getsthrough or that feeling because
the feeling is inside of us.
(45:43):
Like when I look at that.
There's no remote control fromthat view to how I feel either.
But I can feel those feelingsthat are inside me that kind of
just filled me up when I look atsomething beautiful, when I'm in
that state of mind to do that.
So it's not the view because Icould have a very different
experience with that view. It'slike where I'm at inside of
(46:03):
myself. And it's nice to be ableto feel the beauty and the joy
and the richness of life that'sinside of us, just living our
daily lives.
Angus Ross (46:21):
OhI love that, that rock in the shoe metaphor for
that was really good. Was thatoriginal?
Rohini Ross (46:27):
I think so...
Angus Ross (46:27):
Sounds very impressive. Because I feel like,
yeah, it's so easy to thinkthat. That we lose that sense of
tolerance that all of a sudden,we're back to all ways when an
actual fact we have had a shiftin consciousness. We've removed
(46:47):
that giant rock and all of asudden, that tiny little pebble,
that insignificant pebblesuddenly starts to look like a
real problem. I think that thatreally is something that's
worthy to talk about here.
Rohini Ross (47:04):
I agree because it is paradoxical, like I said
earlier, and it can be confusingto people. Because they think
that they won't have a low moodafter they've had a shift in
consciousness. Or they thinkthat they won't get stirred up
after a shift in consciousness.
But that's not how it works. Weactually notice it more. When
(47:27):
we're caught up, we notice itsooner, because we are so aware
of the disturbance. And it feelsworse when we feel bad, it
doesn't feel better. And that'sactually a really good thing.
Because we want to know, whatour state of mind is we want to
be able to have that feedbackfrom our emotions, let us know.
(47:48):
And so he's going to be moreacutely aware of that. And she's
going to be more acutely awareof that. And having them
recognize that that's the healthof the feedback system working
in a way that they had overrideit it overrode it overridden it.
Angus Ross (48:09):
I think overriden maybe,
Rohini Ross (48:11):
In the way that they overrode it in the past,
that they were ignoring it. Andthey weren't noticing the check
engine light was on. But nowhopefully, they are going to
notice it. And it's going tofeel bad. But that's a good
thing. If you touch a hot stove,you want it to hurt. You want
(48:32):
that feedback?
Angus Ross (48:33):
Yeah, you know, it's, I think, also I think
upon, you know, when I reflecton my own experience, prior to
this understanding, I felt likewith each new technique, I may
have learned at some personalgrowth workshop, I think I came
away thinking, well, I shouldn'thave low moods anymore. And that
was a big mistake. I'm reallywhat got me into trouble. And to
(48:58):
realize that that's part of thehuman experience. And really,
what we are trying to share hereis how to be better at
negotiating those low moods,that they're inevitable that we
don't have to take them nearlyso seriously. And we can
tolerate them. And it doesn'tmean anything. And that tiny
little pebble is veryinsignificant, but we have a
(49:21):
tendency to make all kinds ofmeaning out of it. In the same
way that when that low moodreared its ugly head post, some
sort of personal growth workshopthat you would have dragged me
to when that happened, and thatreared its ugly head, I thought,
oh, gosh, our marriages just youknow, is just is just destined
(49:42):
to fall by the wayside here andmake all kinds of meaning out of
it. And that was just you know,it's kind of like, with those
low moods, the circus would cometo town but with this
understanding, there's a lowmood Yeah, you know what? the
circus can can stay home today.
Rohini Ross (49:59):
Being Human is a circus?
Angus Ross (50:01):
Being human is a circus, the human experience for
sure is a circus.
Rohini Ross (50:06):
And when we have a shift in understanding our low
mood from that shift may bebetter than our high mood before
we had that shift. But it feelsbad. Yeah. So that's the irony
in the paradoxical part of it isthat it feels terrible when it
actually could be way betterthan it was before.
Angus Ross (50:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
Isn't that interesting. And thenalso, I think about the times
where, for whatever reason,we're at a low ebb. And that's
why I think it's important tothink that there will be blind
spots and expect blind spots,because it's in those blind
spots where, yeah, the circuscame to town without us even
noticing.
Rohini Ross (50:43):
We're all learning and growing.
Angus Ross (50:45):
Yeah, absolutely, always.
Rohini Ross (50:47):
And so the other piece that I think was important
is to recognize that we willhave less tolerance, when we
have that shift inconsciousness, we are going to
be more sensitive to our stateof mind. But we also from that
shift, and from a clearer stateof mind, are able to experience
(51:09):
life more fully, we're able tobe impacted by the beauty of the
experience, by the love in ourheart, that we're more open to
that as well. So it's not alldownside, but the upside is that
we have a much greater abilityto be impacted by our deeper
nature.
Angus Ross (51:28):
Yeah, it's all about presence, isn't it?
Rohini Ross (51:37):
Something that we had discussed was like the
Valentine's Day thing, where theexpectations sometimes and like
getting stirred up and realizingthat's on your own emotions, but
then realizing when to engageand when not to because me kind
of projecting to you and beingangry with you on Valentine's
Day, did not get my real pointacross at all and didn't
accomplish anything and what,and maybe it's revisiting it
(52:00):
when you are in an unnaturalstate, which would have just
been, just give me a phone calland let me know that you're two
hours late, I know that we'renot,we never plan on when're
going to come up here. Andthat's partially like my fault
as well. But just to know, like,at least a little bit of an idea
of like, what the timeframe wasthat you would be home so we can
just plan accordingly. And Ithink that's the difference is
(52:21):
like just realizing that statethat later on once you know that
you you can come to terms withwhat really did kind of bother
you.
Yeah, it's like there's adifference between? Well, one,
we talked about how you nothinggood gets worked out in that
moment, when one person even ifit's just one person that's
reactive, nothing good is gonnacome from it. And so to be able
(52:42):
to leave that alone, and justwait to get into a neutral
state, we talked about neutral.
How we can misjudge neutralbecause I shared with Alicia, I
got a text from one of myclients that I work with. And I
had just suggested websitedesigner to her because she was
looking for someone to do that.
And I got this text back. Ohthis one had built my own. Oh
(53:03):
boy, okay, what recommend her toanybody else again. And then she
emailed me, she's, you know, I'mso sorry, I thought I was
neutral when I sent you thattext. And I read it. And I
realized, like, I was completelynot neutral. So to be able to
really get clear about whatneutral is so important. So
after any kind of upset, to beneutral is a good feeling. It's
(53:25):
an open heart, there's noattachment, there's no
criticism, there's no wrongmaking. It's just like, hey, and
then there's maybe even personalresponsibility, like, Oh, I
realized we didn't know I didn'tclarify when we're leaving. And
you know, it's like, and thenyou can figure things out from
that place. But from the otherplace of where we're compelled
(53:46):
to try and get our point across.
It's like we that's the learningcurve, like, no, this is the
time to zip it up. You know,this is the time to use my
feeling state is my indicatorthat I am not on the GPS,
whatever is going on.
Alicia (54:02):
And then it's like just like almost like an avalanche.
Like, that's really what I wasupset about was just the non
communication of like, thetimeframe of coming home to then
then it just started spiraling.
And it's Valentine's Day, no,and no gift. Where I should have
just been like, I'm eating yourchocolate. Like, you know, like,
instead of just making it up manand just being angry about
(54:25):
everything, and then blowing upthat moment, when in actuality,
that day was great. Like I had agreat day at work. I had a great
day. I was excited to pack andget over here and drop off the
dog and I literally made themost miniscule thing that I
could have stated later on or ifI had been in a neutral mind
just stating that in thatmoment, but because I wasn't
there, everything worked me. Andit wasn't even about the stupid
(54:47):
Valentine's Day. It wasn't aboutany of that was just like I wish
I would have just known thetimeframe.
Rohini Ross (54:52):
Yeah, and so something that's that you know,
simple when you're in a goodstate of mind like oh, that's
kind of common sense becomes theend of the world, crisis. And
it's like, oh, that from that tothat and 30 seconds. How does
that happen? That's how we areas human beings. I thought it
(55:14):
was really cool how Alicia justnaturally started to revisit
some of her big concerns thatshe came in with and see them
from a different vantage point.
Angus Ross (55:24):
Yeah, isn't that wonderful, and that, again, is
that it's much easier to look ator revisit those those
situations from the state ofmind that she currently now
finds herself in, which is amuch more settled state of mind,
much more neutral state of mind.
Rohini Ross (55:41):
And she sees lots of possibilities now that she
didn't see at the time.
Angus Ross (55:45):
Yeah. And she's much more philosophical about it,
rather than caught up injudgment.
Rohini Ross (55:50):
Absolutely. Mateo still has some questions,
though. He's got some worries.
Angus Ross (55:56):
I guess that was inevitable.
Rohini Ross (55:59):
And you'll hear about Mateos worries in the next
episode. In the meantime, pleasesend in your questions or topics
you'd like us to discuss in ourAsk anything episodes by either
emailing to us at info attherewilders.org that's
(56:27):
info@therewilders.org or byleaving a voicemail at
1-424-272-6497 . Talk soon.
This is Episode 11 Key Relationship Takeaways.
We're excited to let you knowthat we're going to be doing
some ask anything podcastepisodes. And so we'd love to
hear from you. If you have anyquestions about the podcast
(00:23):
about relationships in general,or any other questions that
you'd like us to answer, we'dlove for you to send them in.
And so you can send them in viaemail to info@therewilders.org
Or if you'd like to send in yourquestion anonymously, you can
call your question in424-272-6497. That's
(00:53):
424-272-6497.
In this episode, we're going tobe listening to segments of the
final session that we had withAlicia and Mateo, when we all
came back together after ourseparate sessions, and it's
(01:15):
really wonderful to hear whatthey're saying in their own
words, in terms of what they'veseen, and what they're taking
away with them.
Angus Ross (01:25):
Yeah, I think that this episode is wonderful. I
feel like this episode is kindof a celebration in a way, of
all that they've seen and allthat they've learned, and the
insights that they've taken onboard. It was really, it was
wonderful to be there. And, andI look forward to sharing it
(01:47):
with everybody through thismedium.
Rohini Ross (01:50):
And we do start off with you having a little bit of
a wobbler.
Angus Ross (01:54):
Oh, yeah, we did.
You thought you throw that infor good measure. What about
your wobblers I'm sure you musthave had the odd warbler here
and there.
Rohini Ross (02:04):
I have inner wobblers.
Angus Ross (02:06):
That's right. I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve.
Or roll my wobble on my sleeveanyway.
Low mood, low mood, reactive. Iguess my warning this morning
(02:36):
with them? Is it seems like theywere kind of both feeling a
little bit awkward. And perhapsthey won't even maybe even have
tested the water. In terms ofwhat it looks like to get become
intimate again. When I sayintimate just having a nice
(03:00):
feeling with one another or evendiscussed it. I don't know. I'm
just worried that yesterdaycould have just been a flash in
the pan.
Rohini Ross (03:08):
Oh, but I thought he said he saw something.
Angus Ross (03:11):
I felt like he did see something. I guess this is
all too good to be true. I guesscuz I'm in the low mood, without
sorts. I'm seeing my worldthrough that lens this morning.
seeing everyone in it throughthat lens coating all.
Rohini Ross (03:33):
So can we put that upside down?
Angus Ross (03:37):
Yeah. My Goodness! I sound like I sound like such a
diva.
Rohini Ross (03:49):
Now you know what I deal with?
Angus Ross (03:51):
I know, all you have to put up with
Rohini Ross (03:56):
On a regular basis.
Angus Ross (03:57):
But at least that's that's a healthier way for me to
negotiate that situation andfessing up to the fact that I'm
in a low mood. And evidently,I'm not taking it that
seriously. Although obviously,I'm a little concerned about
where our couple is at thatpoint. And who knows, I can't
(04:19):
even remember why I was out ofsorts that morning. But I
thought that's a good way tohandle it.
Rohini Ross (04:24):
I thought so. I think it's good to demonstrate
that we walk our talk.
Angus Ross (04:30):
Yeah, no, I guess I'd forgotten that I had that
experience thta morning. And Ithink part of it was probably I
don't know why I had thatconcern that this wasn't
holding.
Rohini Ross (04:45):
Well, I don't want to give too much away. But I
think that you were picking upon some things that were still
needing to be addressed.
Angus Ross (04:58):
I guess so.
Rohini Ross (04:59):
I think you're intuition was on track.
Angus Ross (05:02):
I was too attached to a positive outcome, I guess.
Rohini Ross (05:07):
Why?
Angus Ross (05:08):
In the sense that if I had an intuition or an
inclination that something wasnot quite right, that might be
at loggerheads with my agenda ofthere being a positive outcome,
what we were recording?
Rohini Ross (05:20):
And is that what was going on with your low mood?
Angus Ross (05:24):
I wonder? I don't know.
Rohini Ross (05:27):
And why are we so attached to a positive outcome?
Angus Ross (05:30):
I think that's just my ego. I think that my ego
would be inclined to tell methat. If we don't have a
positive outcome, then it wouldnot be so marketable. In terms
of our end product. I want mysentimental Hollywood ending.
Rohini Ross (05:48):
I'm much more of a European indie film goer myself.
Angus Ross (05:52):
You are! I tend to I tend to want something I want. I
want my plotline tied up with aribbon.
Rohini Ross (05:58):
You want the Disney ending?
Angus Ross (06:00):
I do want the Disney ending?
Rohini Ross (06:02):
Well, we don't get the Disney ending.
Angus Ross (06:04):
No, we don't get a Disney ending. But we get an
ending.
Rohini Ross (06:09):
We're getting close to the ending, where this is the
final session that we have withthem together. But we do have
the follow up sessions that takeus on quite the journey after
the intensive.
Angus Ross (06:24):
And who's to say it's not a Disney ending, maybe
it's it's one of those thoseexperimental productions at a
Disney producer might put moneyinto it's a new breed of Disney
ending.
Rohini Ross (06:39):
Well, it's real life. It's not Disney. There's
one other thing that I wanted tosay just about navigating the
low mood. I wasn't particularlycompassionate as I listened back
to that I'm basically silent.
And I think that, as I don'tremember the specific moment,
but I can recognize in myselfsometimes how I'm doing an
(07:02):
inward iral moods. And I'mguessing that that was what was
going on. For me at that pointin time. I was probably thinking
I can't believe this. We'regoing into our final session.
What do you mean, you're out ofsorts? And the best thing I
could do at that point in timewas to just bite my tongue.
Angus Ross (07:22):
Yeah. And yet listening back. I feel like I
can hear your inward iro. Ifthat probably doesn't make any
sense whatsoever. But readingbetween the lines or listening
between the lines, I would saythat was pretty apparent
Rohini Ross (07:39):
I'm fessing up to it.
Angus Ross (07:43):
And I think that I'm kind of in that moment fessing
up to the fact that my ego isprobably got the wheel. And I'm
being gripped by a low mood. AndI don't have to take that
seriously.
Rohini Ross (07:56):
Yeah. And oh, sorry.
Angus Ross (07:58):
Well, based on on the levity that I was probably
sharing with you at that pointwas evident that I wasn't taking
it very seriously.
Rohini Ross (08:07):
And that we were able to just sort of air that
out and move on.
Angus Ross (08:12):
Yeah, taking it not taking it seriously, but
obviously feeling quite pissedat the same time.
Rohini Ross (08:19):
You or me?
Angus Ross (08:20):
Me!
Rohini Ross (08:22):
And I was at when I was doing the hike yesterday
with our eldest daughter Akasha.
She said to me something that Ifound kind of helpful, because
she said that you and her havesomething in common where when
you're an upset, you tend toexternalize or direct it
externally. Whereas our youngerdaughter and myself, we tend to
(08:43):
go more internal with our upset.
And so it helped me see like,Oh, you just tend to put words
on an experience that I probablywouldn't talk about. And I don't
really need to take that tooseriously, either. It's just the
way that you're working throughit.
Angus Ross (09:01):
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, is there's no right orwrong way to process that
emotion. And I think thatprobably we get ourselves into
difficult difficulty by feelinglike we have to process it and
make meaning out of it. I thinkYeah, we're cash and I probably
do have a tendency to, to sortof verbally flame fro
Rohini Ross (09:26):
She was remembering how every time she would have a
big school project that shewould have this massive
meltdown. And then she wouldjust go do it.
Angus Ross (09:34):
Right, which is very similar to how I often do
it on so many levels. Thepodcast included. That's how I
kind of get from A to B.
Rohini Ross (09:47):
And for me to be able to see that more neutrally
and just recognize that's justhow things unfold for you and I
don't need to take it personallyand it is part of your creative
process. Yeah,
Angus Ross (10:01):
I'm just imagining it from your point of view. It's
kind of like watching some sortof comedy unfold. If I was to
watch myself on a movie screenbehaving this way, I would
probably find it quite funny.
Rohini Ross (10:19):
Next time is going on, I'm gonna have to play the
Benny Hill soundtrack in mymind.
Angus Ross (10:25):
Something of that ilk, maybe something a bit more
contemporary.
Rohini Ross (10:29):
Like, what?
Angus Ross (10:30):
I don't know
Rohini Ross (10:31):
one of the tick tock themes you listen to?
Well, anyway, shall we move on?
Yes. All right, so we'll go intothe first segment of the session
with them.
Mateo (10:52):
So for me, it's been very eye opening, and I, I can
definitely see how my mind andthe stories that I've created to
shortcut, you know, theinevitable of like a
conversation or how things aregonna play out, I always play it
(11:12):
out in my mind first, and it'slike a rehearsal. It's a
rehearsal, right? I've rehearsedeverything. And now, I kind of
understand how that can bedetrimental, because you're
approaching every situation thatyou know what the outcome is
going to be, instead ofapproaching it with an open
mind. So for me, it's kind ofbeen, you know, second thing is
just like releasing thatnarrative that I built, in my
(11:33):
own mind, that really hasaffected her and the
relationship. And I mean, evengoing beyond just our
relationship, I can definitelysee how, you know, creating
these powerful stories in yourmind can alter the real reality
that you may be facing, right?
You build this narrative that,you know, the outcome is going
(11:55):
to be negative, but it could bethat the other person is, you
know, just being their normalself, and you're interpreting it
like there's some alter, analter reason, or I can't think
of the word right now. But...
Rohini Ross (12:12):
Ulterior motive?
Mateo (12:13):
Ulterior motive, exactly.
To the line of questioning thatyou're getting, rather than just
letting it come to you, and youjust be normal and not
following, you know, the, thosepowerful narratives that you've
created in your own mind.
Rohini Ross (12:29):
It sounds like you see the benefit of showing up
kind of fresh and open andreally seeing what's there. So,
Mateo (12:37):
Yeah, definitely.
Absolutely. Now, I mean, thatdoesn't mean that like
throughout a conversation, itmight not lead a certain way for
me to be like, Okay, this couldbe getting annoying, but at
least coming into a conversationwith a clean mind. And no, like
I said, not listening to thosestories that I've built, in my
(12:59):
mind. I think that's ainvaluable asset to have.
Rohini Ross (13:11):
For this episode, we're going to be sharing a lot
of the takeaways that Alicia andMateo got from spending time
with us when to illustrate whatthey saw. But also, what they
saw is very universal and can begeneralized. So we hope that
it's helpful to everybodylistening.
Angus Ross (13:29):
Yeah. And so obviously, what leaps out here
is how he's willing now torelease the narrative that he
may bring to the table withinany context or conversation. And
I think that what he'sultimately pointing to, he's
seeing the value of what itmeans to be present with my
(13:51):
partner. So I think of the wayswhere I might, I mean, an
example that I could give abouthow I would not be present,
let's say, for argument's sake,if I was going to go and teach a
seminar, that in the past, Iwould have spent a great deal of
time prepping for it, kind ofalmost creating a script for it.
(14:14):
And so doing putting a lot ofpressure on myself to perform.
And I've now since learnedthat's not advisable. The best
way for me to show up and teacha seminar is to be really in the
moment and be really engagedwith my audience. In actual
fact, when I show up that way,there are a lot more engaged,
it's when I go to script, thatthey tend to start yawning and
(14:35):
falling asleep, or worse, stillreact in a negative way. But for
him to be able to see that andrealize that he is not only
putting himself under a greatdeal of pressure. He's keeping
his analytical machinery fullyengage. But he's actually the
expectation is for her to fallinto alignment with his script
(14:57):
that he's created and that anytransgresion on that front is
going to be problematic andcontentious as far as he's
concerned. So it's almost likehe's waiting for her to slip up,
and woe betide if she does. Andhe's gonna have probably a great
deal of judgment, if in effect,she does slip up. So it's good
to see that the greatest thingthat he can bring to that
(15:19):
situation is to be able tolisten and to listen deeply and
try and put himself in hershoes. And to be empathic in
that way. We'll be one step awayfrom compassion, and the love
that really is their innateessential selves in that
relationship. So I think it's areally fantastic thing for him
(15:41):
to see and to grasp hold off atthis point.
Rohini Ross (15:43):
Absolutely. In the next segment, we hear more about
him realizing the importance ofpresence and the importance of
listening. But for him to beable to recognize that he has a
narrative running, I thinkthat's so key. Because once we
realize that's what's going on,we realized that the narrative
isn't truth. Before this, hedidn't even realize he had the
(16:03):
narrative running. He thought hewas just seeing reality as it
is. And now at least he'srecognizing, oh, he's been
seeing the reality that he'smaking up in his mind. And that
isn't necessarily what's reallygoing on.
Angus Ross (16:16):
Yeah, it's huge.
He's stepping out of the matrix.
Rohini Ross (16:19):
That's right. Well, let's hear his next part.
Mateo (16:29):
You know, wanting to be in the conversation, and
actually listen, is somethingthat I've experienced the past,
you know, day or two, and sheis, you know, I'm pushing away
that so I don't know, then thatthis conversation is going to be
so it's, it's allowing me to bemore patient, and not just
tapping my foot and being like,okay, you know, we've hit step
one, two, and three, and waitingfor number four, because that's
(16:51):
when, you know, shit startsrolling down. Oh, so that's been
very cool.
Rohini Ross (16:56):
That's great. that sounds freeing.
Mateo (16:58):
Yeah.
Angus Ross (16:59):
Yeah, that's really interesting way of putting it
because that makes me see howand I definitely feel like I've
been guilty of that in the pastand see how when we have a very
strong narrative, and we almosthave a script that we bring into
play with that narrative. Andwe're kind of not really
connected, we're not evenpresent to hear the other person
what they got to say, we're kindof like, just waiting for the
(17:20):
narrative to play out. And theway that we perceive it should
play out.
Mateo (17:24):
Yeah,
Angus Ross (17:24):
There's a disconnect just right there.
Mateo (17:26):
So rewatching your shitty movie over? The person next to
you, maybe, maybe into it, it'sprobably into it. And you're
just like, Oh, my God, I can'twait for this to end. All right.
She's kissing him the first timehere. You know, so it's, yeah,
it's approaching it with a freshperspective, or not even a
(17:47):
perspective at all.
Angus Ross (17:49):
Because it's so easy, based on the narrative
that we're wanting just toassume we know what the other
person is thinking and howthey're going to behave and act.
And for my speaking for myself,invariably, I'm so off base in
terms of what I'm thinking of myyoung, you know, my youngest
daughter at times, I would like,totally think I know what she's
going to do next. And I'd becompletely off base.
Mateo (18:11):
Yeah. And I think that's what builds like a cynical
asshole is, you know, just,they're so convinced with their
story that they're so jaded fromlife and don't allow themselves
to experience life and new, newexperiences. So I could
definitely see how, you know,it's definitely that, that cynic
(18:33):
and it's like, Okay, all right,let's approach the day with kind
of a blank slate, but a blankslate to allow things to come to
us. Right. So it's kind of cool.
Rohini Ross (18:53):
I love how Mateo is able to really see how jaded he
had become in the relationship.
And that, even after this fairlyshort time, of settling down
having time with us having timeto connect with Alicia, he's
able to approach her in therelationship from a much more
open hearted and open mindedspace.
Angus Ross (19:18):
Yeah, I think that I love what he's said about what
was the term that he used iskind of like how I heard it,
he's gets to reboot each day's anew day. And he can let go the
script, just to be conscious ofthat alone allows him to show up
and be fully engaged and presentwith her. And to see the
(19:42):
throughout it all, we all haveour own separate realities. And
letting letting go the need toanticipate what that means. And
just show up and try and youknow, try and be present, I
think is huge.
Rohini Ross (19:58):
And it's a great reminder for all of us to
recognize that we're spendingmost of the time living in our
condition, thinking, living inour story that isn't necessarily
being present to what is, andhow much better life is when we
get out of our head and just getinto the present moment.
Angus Ross (20:18):
Yeah. And get to see how we do you're right spend so
much of our life in anticipationof what we believe will be
happening next, based on ourconditioned conceptual mind,
whether and in and in reality,what a far better way to be is
just to be fully open toanything. And that's kind of
(20:40):
what's exciting about life is wedon't know what's going to
happen next. But we spent somuch of our time trying to
anticipate exactly what is goingto happen next and, and kind of
really miss out on what is thewhat is in actual fact taking
place.
Rohini Ross (20:56):
Yeah, not only do we miss out on the experience of
being present, but we also missout on really being able to hear
that inner guidance that isavailable to us when we're
present is not available to uswhen we're caught up in our
head. But when we're reallypresent in the moment, we can
tap into that.
Angus Ross (21:11):
Yeah, isn't it interesting to think that our
intuition is much more readilyavailable to us when the
analytical machinery isdisengaged? And it can really
only disengage itself when whenwe're fully present and
listening deeply within thecontext of a relationship being,
you know, in partnership withsomeone else?
Rohini Ross (21:31):
Well, let's hear from Alicia.
Angus Ross (21:33):
Sounds good.
Rohini Ross (21:47):
How about you Alicia?
Alicia (21:49):
I think for me, just kind of reflecting on all of it.
And I was holding onto lastnight, I feel like we've been so
blessed to be given thisopportunity to really do this
whole process and try to like,almost reset our relationship
and get a second chance of beingnewlyweds because we never
really got that chance. BecauseI was traveling a lot. And for
me, I think that every singlecouple should go through this
(22:11):
process. And not in that momentthat they're like, Oh, no, now
we have a problem. But from thevery beginning, because I think
from the personal growthperspective, you just learn so
much more about yourself, andthen how to interact not only
with your spouse, but everybodyin your life, and to not make up
certain things or, you know, wehave a conversation and I'm dead
(22:32):
set on my thinking. And I kindof shut you down to realize that
I could still have my strongthinking, but I have to approach
it that way. And I can almostopen my mind to potentially
seeing it from anotherperspective and actually
changing my hardcore decision.
And even just like seeing thingsand you know, everyone's gonna
go through their ups and downsand moods. And that's it that's
inevitable, but not taking itpersonally, even though you
(22:55):
think it's a personal attack,even though you think you're
being judged, because I know,that's something that you know,
that I suffer from a lot. Like,I'm always like, Oh my god,
they're judging me on something,just to realize that it's not
me. And I can control that I cancontrol like how I perceive that
and just walk away and just belike, okay, like, I don't have
to do it. And then just knowingthat, like, you know, we spoke
about a higher power and thespirituality of things and just
(23:16):
to realize that that's a safetynet. And that even though we
think that we have to be incontrol, sometimes you don't
have to be in control. And youknow, your own personal
navigation system will lead youto what is gonna get done, and
it's gonna get done when it getsdone. Yeah.
Rohini Ross (23:30):
A lot lighter that way.
Alicia (23:31):
It's a lot lighter that way very tranquil that way.
Rohini Ross (23:34):
Yeah, exactly.
That's great.
Alicia (23:36):
Yeah. So just thinking like, you know, work tomorrow,
for instance, like I have thisrunning to do list and I was
remember thinking usually onSundays, I get bad anxiety,
like, Oh, my God, Monday'scoming, right. And then now I'm
kind of just in that perspectivelike that to do list will get
done. I don't have to likestress it now. It'll get there
when it gets done. And it'll getdone next week. And just go with
(23:57):
it that way. So that way, Idon't put myself through all
these crazy emotions and putsome strain on like my heart and
my stress.
Rohini Ross (24:02):
Exactly. Yeah, that's fantastic.
Angus Ross (24:09):
What stands out for me in this segment, listening to
Alicia is just her general stateof mind seems to be there for a
soul to see with her level ofenthusiasm for this whole
intensive experience. And she'stalking about, I don't know,
(24:30):
this is how I heard it, butshe's talking about how couples
should or all couples should gothrough this at some point in
their relationship. Almost likewith our car, we set up on our
calendar to do the service every30,000 miles, it will be good to
do something along those linesin relationship, just as a
(24:53):
reminder just as a tune upbecause we're constantly being
exposed to the realm of ourconceptual mind and try to live
our lives in that way, there areso many blind spots as far as
that's concerned. So it's a goodreminder. And I love that she
picked that up on and I lovedhow enthusiastic she seems,
(25:16):
which is an indicator to me thatour mind has got pretty sacral
through the course of thisweekend.
Rohini Ross (25:22):
Yeah, I think it's hard to really convey what
happens in an intensive becauseit's not in the words, her
enthusiasm, her feeling ofwellbeing her open heart, the
same with Mateo, his open heart,his ability to see things fresh
(25:42):
and new. I mean, they're talkingabout it, but we got to sit with
him and experience how that wascoming from inside of them. And
so we're just doing our best toconvey that in the best way that
we can. But it's not happeningfrom the words they're touching
into that deeper place inside ofthemselves that is intangible
(26:03):
that is their essence. Andthey've clearly both been
impacted by that.
Angus Ross (26:07):
Yeah, I mean, you could you could feel the
discontent on the day that theyarrived. You could feel that
discord, it was palpable. Andnow that's been replaced with
well being you can you can tasteit. It's really beautiful.
Rohini Ross (26:24):
What does it taste like?
Angus Ross (26:26):
It's got a sort of sweet and soft center that
nevertheless explodes witheuphoric flavor.
Rohini Ross (26:36):
Sounds good.
Angus Ross (26:41):
And with some very distinctive notes of love in
there,
Rohini Ross (26:46):
it makes me think of those candies that have those
things that sparkle in yourmouth.
Angus Ross (26:51):
That's true.
Rohini Ross (26:51):
You know what it does thing? You know, you eat
it? And then it kind of
Angus Ross (26:54):
is this sort of explosive candy? Yeah.
Rohini Ross (26:57):
I've eaten chocolate with it.
Angus Ross (26:58):
I remember, I think I gave one of those to my dog
years ago.
Rohini Ross (27:01):
No, that is so mean.
Angus Ross (27:04):
Ultimately, I think he quite enjoyed it. But it was
nevertheless quite peculiar tohim.
Rohini Ross (27:09):
How old were you?
Angus Ross (27:10):
I think it was 12 unexpected, isn't it?
Rohini Ross (27:13):
It is, I'm glad your dog was okay. One other
thing I did want to say aboutAlicia is that she is clearly
experiencing much less anxiety.
And I think that was one of thekey things that she got to see
during this time was how muchshe was buying into her anxious
(27:35):
thinking and how that wasdriving her, and how much
pressure that was creatinginside of her. And that was
obviously having an impact onher mood. And so when she had
that experience, where thefeeling of anxiety lifted off of
her, to me, that was a reallygreat sign that she was no
longer identifying with thosethoughts and able to be more
(27:57):
present. And in that space,she's clearly got more
perspective, about not takingMateo's low mood behavior
personally, she's able to seethat's a reflection of his state
of mind. And it's not about her.
And so I think both of thosethings, being able to live life
with less anxiety by notidentifying with those thoughts,
(28:19):
and having perspective on hislow mood behavior is really
going to serve her well in therelationship.
Angus Ross (28:25):
Yeah, I mean, how cool is that?
Rohini Ross (28:29):
And now we can hear Mateo having a click moment.
Angus Ross (28:32):
All right.
Mateo (28:40):
Yeah, and it's been said, I mean, this weekend, a lot
where you, just said it whereyou can't affect someone else's,
like mood. And Angus said it alot. And it kind of just clicked
with me right now and likeweird. analogies, like there's
no remote control where I canjust hit him be like, Alicia
sad, Alicia angry But in what itreally is, is whatever I'm
(29:04):
saying in that moment, could youknow, like, vice versa, it's
easier for me to talk about itthis way. She's saying something
to me, she doesn't have thatremote control that's making me
feel that way. It's, you know,hearing the words and then
attaching it to that narrative,again, a negative narrative or a
(29:26):
strong narrative in general,which then creates my mood, or
my reaction, which is reallyinteresting, because then it's
pretty much like self-Inducedanxiety, right, or self-induced
anger, sadness, because, youknow, you get this thought in
your mind is something sad andthen you run with it and then
(29:46):
you think of all the otherthings that make you sad and you
just spiraling right rather thanjust, Hey, you know, there's no
narrative don't create one.
Don't fall back into an oldnarrative. Just, you know, just
process it. Kind of like Youknow, with meditation, the the
thought comes and you just pushit away, like thanks for
stopping by, I'll talk to youlater. And it's just really
interesting. It just kind ofmade sense to remote control.
Angus Ross (30:11):
I had this, this support for myself, it's almost
like, you know, when you go, ifI could go shopping and I'd be
in a certain mood, I would shopfor different things. But if I
went through like a supermarketin a certain mood, I would like
be throwing certain things inthe bag. But if I'm in a low
mood, like my mood is justlooking for things that
correlate to that feeling. So Ihave a little bit of that
(30:31):
judgment a little bit of that,it operates in a way.
Mateo (30:39):
That's really interesting.
Angus Ross (30:40):
Before you know it, you're laden with crap...
Mateo (30:45):
Johnnie Walker donuts...
Rohini Ross (30:56):
Well, I guess he actually was listening to you.
And you were telling him in allkinds of different ways where
his experience was coming fromand how it wasn't being caused
by her.
Angus Ross (31:06):
That was that if ever there was a cause of angels
moment, that was for me inlistening back to that, because
yeah, I threw everything at him.
But the kitchen sink, I failedin that respect. But what's so
interesting is that it took onecomment from Alicia to make him
suddenly realize, I don't know,maybe it was kind of an egoic
(31:31):
thing is like, Wow, she's gotsomething here. Maybe she's seen
this. And she's obviouslyevidently drunk the Kool Aid.
Maybe there is something hereafter all, so that clicked
moment for him was like, I guessthat was the straw that broke
the camel's back. He finallylined up all the dots. But he
got boy, did he fight that?
Rohini Ross (31:51):
What a great metaphor. I mean, he came up
with that metaphor himself. It'sa really clear indicator that he
understands that she can't causehis experience.
Angus Ross (32:00):
Yeah, I mean, it's like everything led up to that
moment, he finally got it. Hefinally we got to witness him
have the insight real time,which I think is fantastic. And
just again, just goes to showhow powerful metaphor is in
terms of how you explainsomething that really is
formless.
Rohini Ross (32:17):
And we can't be attached to where they get that
click moment from.
Angus Ross (32:22):
I know, I don't take any ownership for that trip
moment whatsoever.
Rohini Ross (32:25):
Me neither...
Angus Ross (32:26):
In fact, I feel a little bit bereaved of
ownership, it was more to dowith Alicia, or explanation that
may be, as I say, it was thestraw that broke the camel's
back. But thank goodness we gotthere in the end. That's
fantastic.
Rohini Ross (32:39):
Yeah, no, it's really exciting. And I quite
like your shopping cart metaphortoo
Angus Ross (32:46):
Filled with Johnnie Walker and donuts, as he says,
Rohini Ross (32:50):
Mine would be filled with chocolates and
chips.
Angus Ross (32:54):
I don't know what mine will be filled.
Rohini Ross (32:57):
So even though he's had his click moment, what we
talk about next, I think it'sreally important is that we can
have an insight, but there'sstill going to be a learning
curve as we integrate thatinsight into our life.
Angus Ross (33:11):
Yeah, no, I mean, even as he was having this sort
of wonderful moment, there was apart of me realizing, you know,
that's just one wonderfulmoment, there will be plenty of
blind spots in your future. Sodon't let's get carried away
here. But nevertheless, youcan't unsee what he's seen.
Rohini Ross (33:30):
Exactly.
Mateo (33:40):
Now, yeah, it's really cool. And, and just kind of
knowing that I understand to,it's like, it's an exercise, and
you kind of have to remindyourself, it's not this thing,
where it's like, oh, we just,you know, snap our fingers. And
it's working. It's, you know,you're going to have those
moments where, you know, you'regoing to start building that
narrative, but it's important tobe able to snap and understand
(34:01):
that it's just a narrative.
Alicia (34:03):
It's just to listen innocently from like, the start
where there is they could havemade something in your head, but
it wasn't going there. It wasjust like an innocent
conversation, too. So it'sbetter to kind of look at it
that way.
Angus Ross (34:14):
Yeah, and it's also really good to sort of, to
reflect on what you just said isabout, it's not something that's
just gonna like, you're gonnasnap out and, and change
overnight. And I think that alot of personal growth
workshops, probably try and giveyou that magic bullet and you
think you put everything figuredout. I'm gonna go into my life
now and everything is gonna bepeachy. And then what happens is
(34:37):
when it's not peachy, like, Oh,I completely fucked up. It's
like, I can't, you know, I'm notgonna be able to get through my
life. I need to find somethingelse. I need to find the next
thing. But this is what thisunderstanding is sort of
practical is because we'resaying actually, you know, we're
all human beings. We're going tohave those moments we're gonna
relapse back into our thinking.
We're going to take each otherand ourselves personally, but
we're just going to get betterat coping with it. We're gonna
(34:59):
get a lens for it, we're goingto see it for what it is, you
know, as you say, it is likethat muscle that starts to
develop over time. And that's amuch healthier outlook than
thinking, yeah, I need thatmagic bullet. Yeah. If it
doesn't work, what does that sayabout me? Maybe? beyond doubt.
Alicia (35:21):
Yeah, definitely. And I think for us, at least, we both
had these aha moments. I thinkthat the through this past
weekend, but I think it from theoutside looking in, it was
really cool to see that like hewas getting very anxious last
night at dinner. And typicallywhat would have occurred is then
the rest of the night's ruin.
And then he's done. And he'supset about and then I'm like,
Great now, somehow I hadsomething to do with it. But
(35:42):
even yesterday, when yourealized you were getting that
angry thing, you kind of resetyourself. And we left that right
then and there at that table.
And we continued on and stillhad a great night, regardless of
the fact like we didn't let anyof the little bs for 10 minutes
engross and just got to enjoyit. And got to enjoy the rest of
the night.
Mateo (36:01):
Yeah, I just realized that, you know, I was upset in
the moment at my situation ofhaving to wait so long for food
and when that, you know, she didask me about, you know, this
process. And usually, then I'dsay, Man, she's crying, right?
Because I'm in a low mood whenshe's crying for something.
She's not just, you know,innocently asking me about these
(36:23):
questions. And when I got it,there was that moment of like,
oh, my god, she's crying. Butthen, like I said, I, I took
back, and I was like, Nah, man,she's not, I'm just really
pissed off, not feeling well,and knows it was really cool. It
was really cool. And I amexcited to strengthen that
(36:46):
muscle.
Rohini Ross (36:53):
I'm really glad that you emphasize the
importance of the learningcurve. Because it's really nice
to have these experiences wherewe get clarity, we get a glimpse
of what's available. But inorder to make it sustainable,
there's typically a learningcurve for people in order to
(37:13):
integrate that understanding.
And so it's important to helpprepare them as they go back
into their life as to howthey're going to navigate that
learning curve, and to not havethese unrealistic expectations
that Oh, now they've got it allfigured out, everything's going
to be nice and easy all thetime. What they've got, in terms
of the work ahead of them is toreally put into practice
(37:39):
everything that they've seen inthis intensive and to show how
it plays out in real life. Andthe example at the restaurant, I
think, is a really great exampleof how they're already doing
that. And they were able to havethat experience, but not have it
derail their evening, he wasable to recognize that he was in
a low mood, and that's where hisnegative thinking was coming
(38:02):
from, and that he didn't need toget on board with it. And Alicia
was able to not take hisbehavior personally. And so
something that might have reallycreated a down hill spiral for
them actually ended up, youknow, being molehill, and not a
mountain.
Angus Ross (38:22):
Yeah, and I love the way that he's referring to his
learning, being analogous with amuscle that he's developing. And
it was great that they had thatexperience in the restaurant,
because it was a small littlereference point that now will
hopefully be something that theycan access at a point in the
future when there is a there isa bigger blind spot that will
(38:44):
come their way which isinevitable. But, you know, in
the way that he's talking aboutthat muscle development, for me,
that's it's more about theawareness that is taking hold.
And it's not a magic bullet. Andit's not a technique. It's not
something he can put in his toolbelt. It's an awareness of how
(39:07):
the mind works and operates andhe's can see this is a train of
thought that I don't necessarilyneed to get on now. And if I do
that's going to be a reflectionof my state of mind has probably
gone South so I can kind of likeweather that storm. I'm much
better equipped now to weatherweather that storm when it
emerges and the reference to therestaurant is a good example of
(39:28):
that.
Rohini Ross (39:28):
Yeah, so far, so good.
Angus Ross (39:30):
So far, so good.
Rohini Ross (39:32):
And in the next segment, I talk more about how
progress looks which can looksomewhat paradoxical.
Angus Ross (39:43):
Yes, it and I think that it's in that paradox, that
we get to question ourselves andwe get to grow and learn
Rohini Ross (40:02):
What you're both describing is that you both had
sort of a shift inunderstanding. And when we have
a shift and understanding, wesee life differently. So that's
what you're experiencing really,oh, I'm not bothered by her
eating. So from thisunderstanding, you were bothered
by her eating from thisunderstanding, well, no problem,
it's fine. Now what happens atthis level of understanding,
when you get these stabilized,it will feel worse than it felt
(40:25):
at this level of understanding,because your sensitivity to it
has gone up, it will feel soless disturbance is going to
feel bigger than it used to feeldown here. This is making sense
to you the reason I'm sayingbecause it can be kind of a
shock and can feel like thatyou're backtracking. But it's
(40:45):
actually an important measure ofprogress. Because what would
have felt normal or just, youknow, whatever, and not a big
deal before is now going to betapping you on the shoulder and
you're noticing that, to realizethat oh, I am stirred up now,
like, you're gonna get aware ofthe warning signals sooner, and
they might feel a little worse.
But that's actually a goodthing, because it's waking you
(41:07):
up?
Mateo (41:10):
Yeah, it's like we've built up a tolerance for
removing the tolerance.
Rohini Ross (41:15):
Exactly, exactly.
So you don't want thattolerance.
Mateo (41:20):
Let's not buy chips.
Rohini Ross (41:23):
In a good state of mind, it'll be not a problem.
But when she heard chip eatingstarts bugging you, you're gonna
realize like, Oh, I'm stirredup, because she doesn't have the
remote control. Right?. I'mstirred up, like, that's gonna
be one of your warning signals.
Maybe that's like, Oh, I'm in abad state of mind.
Angus Ross (41:40):
Yeah, we're gonna get more tuned to our own
personal state of mind, we'll berealizing when we're stirred up.
And I think that's the tendencyis to feel like, Oh, god, my
mood at this moment is reallyamplified. What does that say
about me, that's the sort of oldnarrative that we were running.
But really all we're just muchbetter equipped to notice it
(42:01):
more. And I think that's wherethe change and the muscle
development camp kicks in, is wejust get to see our mood in
certain situations. And then wedon't necessarily, you know,
we're not less well, far lesslikely to run with it, although
there will initially be thattendency to judge it, oh, I
shouldn't be beyond this, Ishouldn't be having this, this
reaction, those those old neuralpathways are compelling. So, you
(42:24):
know, that's gonna be quitetypical to begin with.
Rohini Ross (42:26):
Yes, I like that, what you talked about in terms
of tolerance, it's like ifyou've been walking with a rock
in your shoe, and just used toit, like, learn how to live with
a rock in your shoe, you takethe rock out, your foot feels
really good. It's like, this isgreat, but then you get a little
rock, and you see, like, Oh,this really hurts now, well, you
wouldn't even notice that littlerock before, because you have
the big rock in your shoe. Soit's like, but it's a good
thing. You want to notice thatthe rocks there, so you can take
(42:48):
it out sooner, which would meantake care of yourself. And, and
in terms of letting the mindsettle. Like, it's what we're
sharing is so simple, becauseit's really about learning how
to help yourself and let yourmind settle. And you figure out
what that is, by listening realtime to what makes sense to you.
So if you know that when themind is stirred up, it's not its
(43:09):
natural state, you have to workat it, like you said, you know,
you have to work at thatnarrative to keep it going. When
you're realizing that's what'sgoing on, you'll know real time
what to do, when that'shappening. Because if you're in
the middle of work, you'll dosomething different than if
you're at home. And maybe youcould go walk the dog, like you
were saying, but you'll kind ofrealize and be on the learning
(43:31):
curve of what helps me when mymind gets stirred up. Maybe it
is going to be you know,meditation or something in that
moment, but it's not never goingto be one thing. And the power
isn't in the technique that youuse the power is and
understanding what's going on.
And that's Oh, I've got astirred up mind. And then if you
disengage from that in whateverway you choose to, it's going to
(43:52):
naturally settle and even if youengage with it and run with it,
because I still do that.
Eventually I'm going to stop wehave to start we don't do it
forever and eventually My mindis going to settle so I might
have suffered a lot longer if Ireally run with it but it's not
the end of the world and youjust start to see like oh the
natural state of the mind is tocome back to peace and when
(44:16):
we're at peace, the world ourrelationships, our work our
life, it's looks good and we caneven if there is something
challenging, we can figure outwhat to do in that situation.
When our mind is stirred up.
Life can be great and it doesn'tlook like it it looks terrible
because we're just looking at itthrough that lens of a stared at
mind. So you both will just geta feel for what you're how
(44:36):
you're looking at life like am Ilooking at it through the
stirred up state of mind if I amI can't take my thinking
seriously right now I'm a littlecrazy. If I'm looking at it from
a, you know, a nice peacefulstate of mind. We know that
because of our feeling state andwe can kind of trust ourselves
and trust our thinking and we'llyou know the best of us will
come out at those times. WhatI've noticed too, and what
(45:02):
people talk about is that whenthe mind is more settled, so I
love what you're recognizingthat you can be stirred up even
to is thinking about somethinggood. But when your mind is more
settled, just life impacts usmore like we feel the beauty of
the ordinariness of life, likewe look at this, and if we're
gonna really start up mine, wewouldn't even notice this view.
(45:22):
But in a peaceful state of mind,like, Wow, look at that. It's
amazing, we feel it, like wefeel the beauty of that and, and
everyday life has that capacityto impact us in beautiful ways.
But when we're really stirredup, it's like, can't get
through, nothing really getsthrough or that feeling because
the feeling is inside of us.
(45:43):
Like when I look at that.
There's no remote control fromthat view to how I feel either.
But I can feel those feelingsthat are inside me that kind of
just filled me up when I look atsomething beautiful, when I'm in
that state of mind to do that.
So it's not the view because Icould have a very different
experience with that view. It'slike where I'm at inside of
(46:03):
myself. And it's nice to be ableto feel the beauty and the joy
and the richness of life that'sinside of us, just living our
daily lives.
Angus Ross (46:21):
OhI love that, that rock in the shoe metaphor for
that was really good. Was thatoriginal?
Rohini Ross (46:27):
I think so...
Angus Ross (46:27):
Sounds very impressive. Because I feel like,
yeah, it's so easy to thinkthat. That we lose that sense of
tolerance that all of a sudden,we're back to all ways when an
actual fact we have had a shiftin consciousness. We've removed
(46:47):
that giant rock and all of asudden, that tiny little pebble,
that insignificant pebblesuddenly starts to look like a
real problem. I think that thatreally is something that's
worthy to talk about here.
Rohini Ross (47:04):
I agree because it is paradoxical, like I said
earlier, and it can be confusingto people. Because they think
that they won't have a low moodafter they've had a shift in
consciousness. Or they thinkthat they won't get stirred up
after a shift in consciousness.
But that's not how it works. Weactually notice it more. When
(47:27):
we're caught up, we notice itsooner, because we are so aware
of the disturbance. And it feelsworse when we feel bad, it
doesn't feel better. And that'sactually a really good thing.
Because we want to know, whatour state of mind is we want to
be able to have that feedbackfrom our emotions, let us know.
(47:48):
And so he's going to be moreacutely aware of that. And she's
going to be more acutely awareof that. And having them
recognize that that's the healthof the feedback system working
in a way that they had overrideit it overrode it overridden it.
Angus Ross (48:09):
I think overriden maybe,
Rohini Ross (48:11):
In the way that they overrode it in the past,
that they were ignoring it. Andthey weren't noticing the check
engine light was on. But nowhopefully, they are going to
notice it. And it's going tofeel bad. But that's a good
thing. If you touch a hot stove,you want it to hurt. You want
(48:32):
that feedback?
Angus Ross (48:33):
Yeah, you know, it's, I think, also I think
upon, you know, when I reflecton my own experience, prior to
this understanding, I felt likewith each new technique, I may
have learned at some personalgrowth workshop, I think I came
away thinking, well, I shouldn'thave low moods anymore. And that
was a big mistake. I'm reallywhat got me into trouble. And to
(48:58):
realize that that's part of thehuman experience. And really,
what we are trying to share hereis how to be better at
negotiating those low moods,that they're inevitable that we
don't have to take them nearlyso seriously. And we can
tolerate them. And it doesn'tmean anything. And that tiny
little pebble is veryinsignificant, but we have a
(49:21):
tendency to make all kinds ofmeaning out of it. In the same
way that when that low moodreared its ugly head post, some
sort of personal growth workshopthat you would have dragged me
to when that happened, and thatreared its ugly head, I thought,
oh, gosh, our marriages just youknow, is just is just destined
(49:42):
to fall by the wayside here andmake all kinds of meaning out of
it. And that was just you know,it's kind of like, with those
low moods, the circus would cometo town but with this
understanding, there's a lowmood Yeah, you know what? the
circus can can stay home today.
Rohini Ross (49:59):
Being Human is a circus?
Angus Ross (50:01):
Being human is a circus, the human experience for
sure is a circus.
Rohini Ross (50:06):
And when we have a shift in understanding our low
mood from that shift may bebetter than our high mood before
we had that shift. But it feelsbad. Yeah. So that's the irony
in the paradoxical part of it isthat it feels terrible when it
actually could be way betterthan it was before.
Angus Ross (50:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
Isn't that interesting. And thenalso, I think about the times
where, for whatever reason,we're at a low ebb. And that's
why I think it's important tothink that there will be blind
spots and expect blind spots,because it's in those blind
spots where, yeah, the circuscame to town without us even
noticing.
Rohini Ross (50:43):
We're all learning and growing.
Angus Ross (50:45):
Yeah, absolutely, always.
Rohini Ross (50:47):
And so the other piece that I think was important
is to recognize that we willhave less tolerance, when we
have that shift inconsciousness, we are going to
be more sensitive to our stateof mind. But we also from that
shift, and from a clearer stateof mind, are able to experience
(51:09):
life more fully, we're able tobe impacted by the beauty of the
experience, by the love in ourheart, that we're more open to
that as well. So it's not alldownside, but the upside is that
we have a much greater abilityto be impacted by our deeper
nature.
Angus Ross (51:28):
Yeah, it's all about presence, isn't it?
Rohini Ross (51:37):
Something that we had discussed was like the
Valentine's Day thing, where theexpectations sometimes and like
getting stirred up and realizingthat's on your own emotions, but
then realizing when to engageand when not to because me kind
of projecting to you and beingangry with you on Valentine's
Day, did not get my real pointacross at all and didn't
accomplish anything and what,and maybe it's revisiting it
(52:00):
when you are in an unnaturalstate, which would have just
been, just give me a phone calland let me know that you're two
hours late, I know that we'renot,we never plan on when're
going to come up here. Andthat's partially like my fault
as well. But just to know, like,at least a little bit of an idea
of like, what the timeframe wasthat you would be home so we can
just plan accordingly. And Ithink that's the difference is
(52:21):
like just realizing that statethat later on once you know that
you you can come to terms withwhat really did kind of bother
you.
Yeah, it's like there's adifference between? Well, one,
we talked about how you nothinggood gets worked out in that
moment, when one person even ifit's just one person that's
reactive, nothing good is gonnacome from it. And so to be able
(52:42):
to leave that alone, and justwait to get into a neutral
state, we talked about neutral.
How we can misjudge neutralbecause I shared with Alicia, I
got a text from one of myclients that I work with. And I
had just suggested websitedesigner to her because she was
looking for someone to do that.
And I got this text back. Ohthis one had built my own. Oh
(53:03):
boy, okay, what recommend her toanybody else again. And then she
emailed me, she's, you know, I'mso sorry, I thought I was
neutral when I sent you thattext. And I read it. And I
realized, like, I was completelynot neutral. So to be able to
really get clear about whatneutral is so important. So
after any kind of upset, to beneutral is a good feeling. It's
(53:25):
an open heart, there's noattachment, there's no
criticism, there's no wrongmaking. It's just like, hey, and
then there's maybe even personalresponsibility, like, Oh, I
realized we didn't know I didn'tclarify when we're leaving. And
you know, it's like, and thenyou can figure things out from
that place. But from the otherplace of where we're compelled
(53:46):
to try and get our point across.
It's like we that's the learningcurve, like, no, this is the
time to zip it up. You know,this is the time to use my
feeling state is my indicatorthat I am not on the GPS,
whatever is going on.
Alicia (54:02):
And then it's like just like almost like an avalanche.
Like, that's really what I wasupset about was just the non
communication of like, thetimeframe of coming home to then
then it just started spiraling.
And it's Valentine's Day, no,and no gift. Where I should have
just been like, I'm eating yourchocolate. Like, you know, like,
instead of just making it up manand just being angry about
(54:25):
everything, and then blowing upthat moment, when in actuality,
that day was great. Like I had agreat day at work. I had a great
day. I was excited to pack andget over here and drop off the
dog and I literally made themost miniscule thing that I
could have stated later on or ifI had been in a neutral mind
just stating that in thatmoment, but because I wasn't
there, everything worked me. Andit wasn't even about the stupid
(54:47):
Valentine's Day. It wasn't aboutany of that was just like I wish
I would have just known thetimeframe.
Rohini Ross (54:52):
Yeah, and so something that's that you know,
simple when you're in a goodstate of mind like oh, that's
kind of common sense becomes theend of the world, crisis. And
it's like, oh, that from that tothat and 30 seconds. How does
that happen? That's how we areas human beings. I thought it
(55:14):
was really cool how Alicia justnaturally started to revisit
some of her big concerns thatshe came in with and see them
from a different vantage point.
Angus Ross (55:24):
Yeah, isn't that wonderful, and that, again, is
that it's much easier to look ator revisit those those
situations from the state ofmind that she currently now
finds herself in, which is amuch more settled state of mind,
much more neutral state of mind.
Rohini Ross (55:41):
And she sees lots of possibilities now that she
didn't see at the time.
Angus Ross (55:45):
Yeah. And she's much more philosophical about it,
rather than caught up injudgment.
Rohini Ross (55:50):
Absolutely. Mateo still has some questions,
though. He's got some worries.
Angus Ross (55:56):
I guess that was inevitable.
Rohini Ross (55:59):
And you'll hear about Mateos worries in the next
episode. In the meantime, pleasesend in your questions or topics
you'd like us to discuss in ourAsk anything episodes by either
emailing to us at info attherewilders.org that's
(56:27):
info@therewilders.org or byleaving a voicemail at
1-424-272-6497 . Talk soon.
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