January 25, 2021 • 53 mins
The Rewilders meet with Alicia and Mateo to discuss more key relationship takeaways all together again. Mateo comes in with thinking inspired by his risk analysis background, as he starts to reach out for the how-to guide once more. The Rewilders help him recall that his wisdom will help guide him in the moment. Alicia sounds ready to go home and practice this new understanding in their relationship -- she feels confident that they can approach conflict differently now. Mateo gets there as well by the end of the conversation.
Angus relays a touching story about when he and Rohini first came to this understanding, through their own intensive from the client seat. At first their home was more peaceful than ever until the sh*t hit the fan again. But this time it was different. As Angus prepared to go give Rohini a piece of his mind, he was struck with the feeling of his own true nature reconnecting him to his conscience. He saw very clearly that he wanted to embody his true self rather than the "nutcase" who was about to yell at his wife.
Mateo and Alicia can really relate, and they see how this understanding would be so useful for everyone to know, regardless of relationship status. Alicia and Mateo graciously reinforce their happiness that their sessions will be shared with the world, in hopes that if even one person has a change of heart from listening, that that will be worth it all.
This explores explores:
- Connecting with our conscience
- How with this understanding, the love becomes the norm and the B.S. becomes the exception
- They will still come up against challenges and resistance, but that's how we grow in consciousness
- When we’re able to not take behavior personally, we’re more able to make a clear choice about staying or leaving because our sense of self is not wrapped up in the decision.
- The difference between shutting down and compassionately waiting for a clearer mind
- Star Wars characters
Show notes
Flabbergasted: Angus's feeling at the end of the session; "greatly surprised or astonished"
Nip it in the bud: an expression that is often mistaken as "nip it in the butt" though, disappointingly, it is in fact the “bud”.
Psychological snake oil: Angus initially feared he'd been fooled by this when learning about state of mind and wellbeing.
Take the needle off the record: wake up to your true nature; also a totally hipster move.
Podcast music
Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area. Episode 12 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity.
Feedback: info@therewilders.org
To leave questions and comments for Ask Anything Episodes Call: (424) 272-6497
Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rohini Ross (00:01):
This is Episode 12.
Part Two of Key RelationshipTakeaways.
We're excited to let you knowthat we're going to be doing
some ask anything podcastepisodes. And so we'd love to
hear from you. If you have anyquestions about the podcast
(00:23):
about relationships in general,or any other questions that
you'd like us to answer, we'dlove for you to send them in.
And so you can send them in viaemail to info at the
rewinders.org info at therewilding org. Or if you'd like
to send in your questionanonymously, you can call your
question in 24242726497. That's424-272-6497.
(01:10):
In this episode, we're going tocontinue listening to the
learnings that Alicia and Mateoare taking home with them. And
we're gonna start off withMateo's question.
Mateo (01:30):
When you realize right, that your partner is acting this
way, is not neutral, but wantsto have this conversation. I'm
guilty of it as well. The otherone's supposed to tell them
without being condescending,like, Hey, I don't control your
remote. Right? Like, how can webe like, hey, let's, cuz I mean,
(01:50):
I mean, Alicia knows, she doesit to me, too. It's, you know,
we're like, Hey, you know,you're, I see that you're angry
when we talk about this later.
But it's like, no, I gotta getthis out. Yeah, right. Yeah. How
do we set the boundary whereit's conducive to the actual
conversation to not have amoment and have it later on?
Rohini Ross (02:07):
Well, why don't you you talk about this now, like,
rather than us tell you how todo it. Like what makes like,
based on what you know, like,Okay, if that situation is
happening, she's in a stirred upstate of mind is temporary. But
she's crazy in that moment, orwhat was the other way? You're
crazy in that moment. So one ofyou is temporarily insane acting
and behaving badly. The otherperson in this scenario hasn't
(02:31):
lost their mind yet, which isgood. And it's like, oh, boy,
what do I do in the face ofsomebody that's doing that?
Like, based on what youunderstand about it's temporary?
She's gonna come back to hersenses? What makes sense to you?
Mateo (02:46):
I don't know. Cuz it sounds really good. Just to be
like, Hey, you know, why don'twe take a break from this. But,
you know, the narrative Ialready have built up in my head
is tried that and, and sometimesit doesn't work out as well.
Sometimes it really does. Butother times, it's like, hey,
yeah, I'm really cold. But I'mstill really pissed off. And I'm
(03:07):
going to show you that I'mpissed off, right? Yeah.
Rohini Ross (03:09):
And that's the non neutral.
Mateo (03:11):
That's like the non neutral kind of psychotic, like,
smile on your face, but reallyraging and Oh, God, right. So
I'm trying to figure out how weboth don't run into that
situation where it's like, Hey,I can totally tell that you're,
you're scrambled. Why don't weWhy don't we hit but I also
don't want to say that and, youknow, cuz you're like, Oh, my
(03:34):
God, he's just using this orshe's just using this as a as a
way to not have thisconversation right now.
Angus Ross (03:41):
I cannot Can I say something? I kind of know what
you're getting at? In a sense.
You were asking for like animprovisational moment. Yeah,
you would actually try it on forsize. Like in this moment? What
do you think your wisdom wouldbe prompting you to do if faced
with that situation?
Mateo (03:57):
Well, I'm really hope I'm really hopeful. It's not going
to happen.
Rohini Ross (04:00):
It's probably gonna happen.
Angus Ross (04:03):
definitely happen!
Mateo (04:03):
I don't want not even a narrative at this moment. But I
don't want what is taking placein the past to occur.
Rohini Ross (04:11):
Yeah. So can I just say, one of the things that
occurs to me is that if you keepit to your experience, so you
don't even need to talk aboutthe other person, because that
is when someone is upset. Like,if I say to Angus, you're in a
low mood, and he's in a low moodas I'm not a low mood, you know,
it's like, the typical answer.
And the same for me if thathappens in my world, so so
that's not a good route to go.
(04:33):
Absolutely. But if you'respeaking to your own experience,
it's like if Angus is in a lowmood, and I'm getting like, if
I'm totally fine, I won't evenneed to say anything about it.
But if he's really angry andupset, and I'm starting to get
destabilized because I can't,you know, I'm not able to handle
it, and I can just speak tothat. So I'm not able to handle
that. Right. Like I need to gosettle my mind. I'm not feeling
(04:56):
okay. So it doesn't have to beanything to do with him. It
could be all to do with I'mtaking care of myself and sorry,
not able to have thisconversation now I'm just not
it's not going to go well. Andso but I want to have it now we
can believe it walking away. Notthat he would say that. I'll be
one saying that to him. It wouldbe like, Yeah, well, you know
that she's gonna stabilize,she's lost her mind. You can't
(05:17):
take what she's sayingseriously.
Alicia (05:20):
I think it's also...
Mateo (05:21):
scary. I feel like it's gonna happen, like in a cartoon,
right? Yeah,
Alicia (05:29):
but you're making a narrative.
Mateo (05:30):
right? No, no, I know.
It's like, hey, she's freakingout. Yellow ran on my Hey, I
understand. Let me let me goaway for a little bit. And let
me like, allow me to get away sothat we can both be in a neutral
mood, right, I close the door.
There's a cartoon, professionalcartoon.
Alicia (05:55):
I think it just kind of one of those things. I think we
both have been now awakened tothis higher power of mind and
recognizing these littletriggers. I don't think that
both of us did not know that atall previous to coming into
this. So I think that'ssomething that now we'll both be
a little bit more aware of. Ithink also, potentially, the
approach could be like, maybe inthe sense of like, you know
(06:17):
what, I do want to have thisconversation, but I'm not in a
good mood right now. So maybe werevisit this and like a
different portion. Because ifyou're making me upset, or Well,
you can't do that. But
Rohini Ross (06:27):
if you think he is, yeah,
Alicia (06:29):
yeah, yeah. Like, you know, if I'm starting to get
stirred up by whatever you'redoing, I could just be like, you
know, what, I'm in a really badmood. But I do want to talk to
you about this, but let me gotake that out or something,
something of those lines thatwe, we bring back a neutral
state or the like, whateveryou're doing is just making me
like grr, but you're not butit's now me and my thoughts. I
have to just be like, Okay, I'mgonna pause for a second and go
(06:52):
watch Housewives or something.
and then like, destabilize mymind.
Mateo (07:01):
I'm more feeling like feelings of trepidation come
when it's, you're going to behaving a mood. And I noticed
that you're not pulling awayfrom the current state. And I
want to, and, you know, you getangry at me, like when I say,
(07:21):
you know, like, I hear you,like, I understand, you're
saying, No, I know what you'redoing to me, you know, you say,
hear me, but you know, right,like, I'm trying to avoid
escalation of situation. And Ido many times, you know, say,
Hey, we're probably not the bestright now to have these
conversations yet, keeps pushingto have those conversations,
(07:43):
I've been using the phrase, likepoking the Buddha, like, I'm
trying to be very neutral, andbe like, you know, I don't want
to do this. And it's not beingdismissive. For me, it's more,
let's have the conversationwhen, you know, we're both even
keel, right. And I tried to backout of it, and it's not backing
out, like I want to run away,but it's backing out, like, Hey,
(08:04):
I understand right now, theconversation is probably not the
best time to be had. I justdon't want you to get upset
when, you know, I do pull awayin those moments. And I don't
want you to think that I'm justrunning away from my problems.
It's running away from theintensity of the problem when I
know it can be handled at adifferent level.
Alicia (08:22):
I completely agree with you, I think that prevented
this, like, I was not open tothat. And when we went through,
you know, premarital counselingbefore we got married, one of
the things that like was told uslike, say that I hear us or I
understand you and like that, tome was a trigger, because I'm
like, are you really listening?
It's, it's no, it's like fake.
And so I think now my mind is alittle bit more open and more
(08:44):
accepting to perhaps the way youapproach that this time around.
Because now that I understandthat how my mind kind of works
and the complexities of it, isthat I'm already just listening
to noise, but trying to beneutral, and it's not really
work. And so what we'vediscussed is just like when I go
through that, like remember thatI'm overthinking remember that
I'm being crazy, just take yourhands off the wheel and just be
(09:05):
like, Alright, you know, whenyou've got a point, let's let's
discuss this later. And let'sdiscuss this in more neutral
state of mind, because I amupset right now. And I'm getting
angered by whatever, and I'mallowing those angry feelings to
come through. So it's just, it'sgonna be, like we said, it's a
learning curve. And it's goingto be practice and there's going
to be slip ups and there's goingto be moments, but to try to
reel it back as back as quicklyas possible to bounce back in a
(09:27):
positive state i think is goingto be the most positive way that
we grow and build on it.
Rohini Ross (09:31):
Yeah. So what I hear you saying is that you
didn't see this before youdidn't see the wisdom crunches
way of doing it before now, Isee that Oh, actually, that's a
good idea. So that means farmore the time Alicia be like
yeah, you're right. But notalways. So I want to point that
out, not always and what I wouldsay if you still have the wisdom
(09:51):
to step back, even though shedoesn't like it, step back. She
will be fine.
This is a big concern of Mateo.
And he brings it up severaltimes in a few different ways.
And he's really not trustingthat Alicia has seen something
(10:12):
that's going to shift herbehavior. And he's also not
trusting himself, that he'sgoing to be able to access his
own wisdom in the moment. And sohere he is, again, looking for
the How To Guide.
Angus Ross (10:28):
Yes, it didn't take long for the need for the How To
Guide to be demanded. But isobviously thinking about his
experience leading up to thispoint, I think he's probably
used that very technique, if youlike, it's been weaponized in a
(10:50):
way where he's probably used itto his advantage. So if he
doesn't like what he's hearing,or like how at least you're
showing up, then he kind of getsto batten down the hatches, but
still be in a place ofrighteousness and judgment. So
it's gonna be a whole differentballgame to be able to see it
from a vantage point where hecan suggest that neutrally,
(11:13):
rather than it be a case oflike, you know, I'm not talking
to you now. And it'd be more ofan FU, rather than a case of
just looking after himself orlooking after her too. It's
like, if he can get to a placeof compassion and see, see that
she's suffering, that's what'skey, and not take that
personally, then he canwithdraw. But if it's a case of
(11:35):
like, No, you've lost the plot.
And he has a lot of judgment forthat, that she's gonna feel that
no uncertain terms. Andprobably, I imagine there have
been many a situation in thepast where that's been the
dynamic that's played out.
Rohini Ross (11:49):
Yeah, that's a really important point about the
judgment. Because our partnerscan feel that judgment. And it
doesn't typically go well, ifthey're having a hard time. But
most importantly, we're the onessuffering when we're identifying
with our judgmental thoughts.
We're creating suffering forourselves. So it doesn't help
the relationship. But it alsodoesn't do us any good either.
Angus Ross (12:12):
Yeah, no, exactly.
And I think if he's coming fromthat place of judgment, and I
imagine, I don't know, I have asneaking suspicion that the
general dynamic would be, oh,you, you've lost the plot here,
I've got the higher ground. AndI'm going to walk away and
probably inflame the situationin no uncertain terms. Whereas
he's coming from a place ofunderstanding of compassion can
(12:35):
see that she's caught up andsuffering, then she'll have,
she'll have an entirelydifferent experience. They both
will.
Rohini Ross (12:46):
Absolutely, well, let's see where he gets to.
Mateo (12:55):
Yeah, I just don't want anything, you know, hurtful
being said in those moments whenI'm walking out the door to go
take the dog out and like steakand take a break. Because, like
I said, a lot of hurtful stuffgets like curled around. And
it's not what we're here for is,you know, to be okay with the
(13:16):
barrage of insults. And so, so,I just wanted to be okay. And I
really, I mean, I'm reallyexcited, but I'm also very
afraid. I'm not shouldn't beright, because nothing's
occurred yet, but talking aboutthis, you know, losing the
tolerance, right, this tolerancethat you've built up and it
(13:39):
becomes more intense, becauseyou lose the tolerance. I'm kind
of like, Whoa, shit, like if webuilt the tolerance for the past
like seven years and you know,we remove that tolerance game I
know what has taken place in thepassing God knows what's gonna
(13:59):
happen, you know?
Rohini Ross (14:00):
But the tolerance is not that you've lost your
tolerance for her behavior, it'sactually you've lost a tolerance
for your own stirred up mind. Soin that situation, it's quite
possible that if you're reallyyou know, not buying into your
narrative, not in your storythat she she could be doing her
thing and you could be feelinglike, yeah, it's a good idea to
leave it, you're not evennecessarily upset by it, because
(14:24):
you're not taking it personally.
You see, like, Oh, she's reallyjust not okay, right now she's
suffering and her behaviors thathave nothing to do with me, it's
a reflection of her suffering inthis moment. She's not always
going to be suffering. And soyou go walk the dog and she's
doing whatever she's doing, butwhen, when it's not taken
personally, it doesn't hurt. Itdoesn't hurt. So I'm not and I
was really clear with Alicia,that I was not about condoning
(14:47):
bad behavior. So an Angus and Iare not here to you know, say
it's a free for all. Weabsolutely encourage each of you
to be your best selves, whichmeans to not behave badly, but
we also aware that at times. Andmy sense is based on what you
both seen, that will be a lotless frequently. But at times,
we're not perfect, we behavedbadly, I make mistakes, you
(15:08):
know, Alicia's gonna makemistakes, you're gonna make
mistakes, that's life. But withthis understanding, it actually
has less impact, because themore that you can see, your
suffering comes from, it's notwhat she's saying, is what
you're doing with your head withwhat she's saying. Right? So if
Angus calls me a bitch, hedoesn't call me a bitch. But
(15:30):
let's say he was to call me abitch...
Angus Ross (15:33):
Sometimes i think it.
Rohini Ross (15:36):
But let's say let's say he says it. If I'm in a
really good state of mind, I'llbe like, God, what's going on
with him that he's so stirred uplike, it wouldn't even hurt. If
I'm in a bad state of mind, hecould say something nice to me.
And I, you know, be off to theraces. I can't believe you said
that. But it but it's all aboutmy state of mind. It's got
nothing to do with his behavior.
And this is where thisunderstanding had a huge impact
(15:58):
on me because I used to be supersensitive to his irritability
and anger. And I would take itvery personally. And it would
just be this escalation, becausehe might be a little irritated.
But I would take it personally.
And that would escalate, andthen he would escalate, and then
I would escalate, and then, youknow, we're off to the races. So
then what happened? Yeah, it'spretty much what happened. But
(16:22):
what happened when I saw thisfor myself, the first time is I
realized I Oh, I, I don't feelhim. I feel my own thinking. And
it's not like he's doingsomething to me. It's I'm like
you said, I'm doing this tomyself. And what it and and in
that sort of taking the pressureoff, I just dropped into a more
(16:43):
stable state inside of myself.
And so the next time that he,you know, got mad at me over
something. It wasn't that kneejerk reaction of like, I can't
believe you're getting mad atme. It was like, Oh, he's not
okay. Like, it wasn't anythingto do with me. It's like, Oh,
he's just not okay. In thismoment, like camera what I said
to you, but I said somethingthat was really there, and
(17:06):
you're like, What the hell'sgoing on with her. But it was
like, it changes the experience,because you see it more clearly.
It's like, you see her state ofmind. And when you see it's her
state of mind, it's not personalanymore. Like, it's she's
suffering, if she's, and this ishypothetical, not giving you
permission to behave badly. Butif she's behaving badly, and you
(17:27):
just see it's her state of mind,and she's suffering, it's got
nothing to do with you. Not thatyou have to stay there and you
know, be on the receiving end ofit. But you don't feel bad,
because you just you might evenI felt compassion. He was
yelling at me. And I feltcompassion for him. Oh, he's not
okay, right now? Because that'snot her natural state. That's
(17:50):
not how she is, unless she'skind of losing her mind in that
moment.
Angus Ross (18:01):
Yeah, yes. So he's already talked about doing risk
analysis for a living. And youcan start to see where he's
already starting to turn over inhis mind, all of the possible
scenarios that he might have toface in the future, based on
experiences and you know, thathe can drum up from the past. So
(18:23):
I guess that's where is thatwhere the mistrust lies? Is it
or is it just that's just howhis mind works? That's just how
he lives and operate looking atlooking at it from the risk
analysis vantage point. So Iguess you can see where he's not
willing to fully trust it yet.
He's seen something for sure.
(18:45):
But it is a little bit, I guess,it's hard not to, for me to be a
little bit disappointed based onthe insight that really has just
unfolded, that he's already nowstarting to question. But that's
just maybe how his mind worksand operates.
Rohini Ross (18:59):
Well, that's the learning curve. Like we said,
there's no magic bullet, he'sgoing to have that insight be
revealed to him over time, andit will deepen and expand. And
you're right, he's gone backinto his default mode and is
trying to figure things outahead of time. And it's coming
from a good place he wants it towork out he's just feeling
insecure. And he's going to whathe's familiar with which is his
(19:24):
intellect to try and figure thatout.
Angus Ross (19:25):
Yeah. And any wants to weigh he wants to really come
away with this is all done anddusted. This is behind this. Now
we're good to go. And, and it'smore a case of I you know, we've
just given you maybe some somepointers in terms of how to how
to live your life in a moreeffective way where challenges
will emerge. And we're justgiving you the technology if
(19:47):
you'd like to be able to weatherthose storms as and when they
appear.
Rohini Ross (19:52):
Yeah, more gracefully, gracefully. And I
want to emphasize that The pointthat I was making here is not a
point that is condoning hurtfulor abusive behavior. I do
What do you do if,you know, thisone's faking being level headed.
believe that when we see thatthe the person who is behaving
(20:15):
in a hurtful way, when we seethat it's their state of mind.
And that it's not personal, thatthat is incredibly liberating
and empowering and helpful. Andthat's been my personal
experience, because I used to beso hurt by your behavior, and
your anger was something that Itook very personally. And so
(20:39):
when I was able to recognizethat that was just a reflection
of your state of mind, that wasreally liberating for me. But I
want to emphasize that we'renever going to say that somebody
needs to stay in a situationwhere the partner is behaving,
and hurtful ways that that's thedecision of the person in the
(21:00):
relationship. And what I'll alsosay is that when we're able to
not take it personally, I thinkit's easier for people to have
clarity on what the right actionis, what the most self honoring
choices, and if that is to leavethe relationship, there'll be a
whole lot more clear.
understanding what's really aplay. And so, Mateo is still in
his questioning mode.
Mateo (21:43):
Someone could be very psycho and have a smile and be
like, Yeah, definitely. Okay.
Right.
Rohini Ross (21:57):
You could say I'm not ready. And I don't like I
want to acknowledge what yousaid, Alicia is like she has a
whole different appreciatebecause we talked about neutral.
We talked about money, we talkedabout this. And we talked about
how we can think we're neutral,and we're nowhere near neutral.
(22:18):
So she's going to be gettingbetter at being honest with
herself about what neutral is,right? Like, that's just you
getting more clearly Oh, Ithought I was neutral. But I
wasn't neutral. So that's herlearning curve, too. So
everything that you're haveconcerns about, she's had
insights about we've talkedabout these specific things,
that even you having to say thatwe've we've addressed them. And
(22:41):
she's seeing somethingdifferently. Yeah, no, I'm not
making this up. So. So she'slike, recognizing that, oh,
maybe I thought it was neutral,but I wasn't neutral. And like
we've talked about what doesneutral really feel like? How do
you know when you're neutral? Soshe's got more of a sense of
that. We've talked about how itdoes make sense to start the
(23:04):
conversation when one of you isdestabilized. And it's a good
thing to do. Because it's just areflection of that state of
mind. And only thing is going tohappen is escalation from there.
So there was no argument for heron any of those things. Like she
completely saw the logic in it,it makes sense to her something
that's accomplished, right? Soyou're using it differently. So
(23:27):
before you were like, wait, youknow, like,
Alicia (23:29):
I want to nip it in the bud.
Rohini Ross (23:30):
Exactly. So now it's like different reaction.
Mateo (23:32):
Reactivity in the butt.
Angus Ross (24:08):
Throw into that equation that we we talked at
length about, you know, there'snothing that she can do really
to make you suffer, it's onlyyour own thinking, right? So the
combination, put all thattogether, we should be hopefully
moving in a very good direction.
Mateo (24:23):
Yeah, I like I said, I'm really excited. I, you know,
like I said before, I likehaving your redirections right.
I want steps, you know, onethrough 10. And I know that also
not, right? That's also adifferent narrative that you're
building inside your mind. Butit's innate within me to be
prepared.
Rohini Ross (24:42):
Exactly. That's it.
And that's why it's not reallyabout us telling you what to do.
Even though we've givenexamples. It's about you seeing
that you have that innateknowing that it's gonna be right
there in the moment and when youhave a certain level of
understanding that knowingmatches that understanding so
You knew all along, but itwasn't good to engage from that
place. So that's not going to goaway. But you're also going to
(25:05):
have more understanding nowabout how to not take her
behavior personally.
Mateo (25:12):
Well, it's like, I just see it playing out where she's
tripping and I'm on the couchlike she gonna get in real life.
She's not gonna look at me andjust laugh.
Rohini Ross (25:41):
He finally got there in the end, where he saw
that it's innate within him tobe prepared. Like he all of a
sudden, realize that he has itwithin himself. And I think
that's great.
Angus Ross (25:54):
Now the force is strong in this one. I get does
that make me Obi Wan Kenobi? Oh,Yoda.
Rohini Ross (26:06):
Yoda might be above your paygrade.
Angus Ross (26:08):
Probably more Jabba the Hutt.
Rohini Ross (26:12):
That's terrible.
No, you're my Luke Skywalker.
Angus Ross (26:16):
Oh, thank you. Yeah, well, you're my princess Leia in
any day of the week? Well, yeah,no, I think what for me is is so
prevalent now as this is really,as this is the levity, that
obviously is very apparent, andthat there's this beautiful
feeling between them. And we getto witness them kind of joking
(26:39):
around with each other in a waywhere there is a lot of
profundity in that jokingaround, they've obviously seen
something, and can see how thiscan work. And I think that, you
know, let's hope this becomesthis wonderful reference point
for the moving forward, thatthey can get along. Who knew?
Rohini Ross (26:59):
Yeah, that's right.
Well, so now we're gonna have alittle storytime with Angus.
Angus Ross (27:05):
Oh, Can I tell the story about when
I was doing the apprenticeshipwith the Pransky's? Basically
spent four days having thesekind of conversations being told
(27:26):
about you know, how she can't beresponsible for anything that
you feel inside. That's all downto you. And I'm like, Okay, that
sounds kind of simple. That'snot really how it works. But
something was progressivelylanding over those four days, by
couldn't kind of put quite putmy finger on it. Although George
our mentor would say that I sawsomething in the first session.
(27:49):
That kind of feels a little bitlike hyperbole to me, but I
think he probably was right. Ithink I wasn't really that
conscious of what was going on,I was hearing something but at a
different level than I couldgrasp a hold off with my
intellect. So when we got backhome, we were home for a week,
and we were just getting on likea house on fire. Everything was
just beautiful. We're justgetting on so well. So perfectly
(28:11):
connected. In my mind, it wasjust great. Our marriage had not
been in such a good place for aslong as I could remember. And
then I think it was on maybe thesecond week, there was one day
and something I don't know, Iwas probably in a really, really
low mood, you were probably tooin a low mood, it was the
perfect storm. And just the shitreally hit the fan in no
(28:34):
uncertain terms. And I just likegot more and more escalated.
And, and it got to this pointwhere it started in the
afternoon and went on into theevening, we went to bed, we
slept on it, we hadn't made upand then I wake up in the
morning, I'm testing the water,we're still in the same place.
Sucks. I remember going into thekitchen, and I'm just about to
(28:57):
leave to go to work. And then Ithought I gotta go back in. I'm
going to have you know, my lastkind of a bit of a last word
freak. I'm going to go in andhave my say and I'm like, and
I'm really angry, but I kind ofscripted in my mind what I was
going to say to her so Im goingto go into the foot of the bed
and just, like starteddelivering all this vitriol
(29:18):
about how, look what we'redoing, like, you know, you've
invested all this money in moresort of psychological snake oil.
And we're exactly the same placewhere like, and literally as I
started to articulate, you knowwhat I wanted to say, I just
suddenly had this sort of reallyweird out of the box experience.
It's the only way I can describeit where I'm just like this just
(29:38):
like I just saw he was I can'teven remember how this started.
I don't remember what we'refighting about. But yet here I
am. There's my body. I'm lookingat me just spewing out all this
vomit on my wife. And it justfelt first of all it felt
nonsensical and then I kind oflike it just felt just totally
it just felt just completely. Idon't know how to define it, it
(30:02):
just felt wrong. It just didn'tsit. This just didn't sit right
with me. It was so much theantithesis of my well being. It
was almost like I suddenly tookthe needle off the record, was
looking at it from theperspective of this
understanding and a feeling ofwell being. And just seeing this
total asshole vomiting all overhis wife, and I just
(30:22):
spontaneously burst into tears.
Because it really reminded mewhat you were saying, like my
wife might laugh in thatsituation. But in the sense that
might happen. For me, it wasjust like, I just suddenly just
saw how ridiculous it was. And Iactually, I think what came up
to me was just this sort ofoverwhelming sense of sadness.
(30:43):
But here's a woman that I reallylove. And I'm just behaving like
a total deck based on thisreally crazy narrative that I've
built up, which I can't evenremember why, yeah, it was not
so as possibly possible.
Rohini Ross (31:10):
Well, that was one of the defining moments in our
relationship were in the heat ofthe moment, all of a sudden, you
connected with your ownconscience, and everything
shifted. And I had no idea whatwas going on, for you. But I
think that that's what happenswhen we spend more time
(31:33):
experiencing our true nature,allowing ourselves to be
rewarded by it, we get into thefeeling of well being, and those
deeper feelings of love andcompassion, and anything that's
not that all of a sudden becomesa whole lot less tolerable to
us. And it's much easier to dropback into that experience of
(31:56):
well being. And look at thatbehavior, like you said, from a
vantage point, like you'reoutside of yourself and realize,
just the ridiculousness of itall.
Angus Ross (32:08):
Yeah, listening to me retell that story, which I
have told 1000 times now. Itnever gets old for me. And it
does, you know, I use that I usethat metaphor of taking the
needle off the record, whichapart from anything else, I
guess, that shows my age,
Rohini Ross (32:27):
Record players are cool now, I guess,
Angus Ross (32:28):
Record plays are cool. So I'm quite a hipster.
Really, that's, it did feel likethat. And I guess it was as if
I'd stumbled into a higher levelof consciousness, and found
myself really looking down onthis crazy person screaming at
their wife. And it just feltcompletely out of sync. With my
(32:52):
essential nature, that's, that'sthe best way to describe it. And
not necessarily big that couldlisten to it at the time. But
that's what's going down. I wastepping into the reality of
who I really am, at my core. Ad that was really not this is nu
case who's got really consumed bsome deep groove habitual t
(33:16):
inking about how I'm supposed treact if and react in these s
tuations, which is kind of lie the deep grooves of my own, my
own record my own disk, if yu like. And so it's very aprop
that that metaphor for pullng the needle off the record, b
cause that's, just not who I amfrom that state. And I guess,
hopefully, it can be defned as a state of higher consci
(33:38):
usness, I can pull that needle of the record.
Rohini Ross (33:43):
And we all can, I think that's what's really
helpful and important foreverybody to see is that we're
not limited by our conditionthinking that we have the
capacity to zoom out, getperspective on it. And the way
that we do that is we connectmore deeply with our impersonal
nature. We allow ourselves todrop out of our personal
(34:04):
thinking and drop into thatdeeper part of ourselves that
has a different vantage point.
Angus Ross (34:10):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Rohini Ross (34:12):
And that's what Matteo is doing here in this
next segment.
Mateo (34:21):
Every time you bring up trying to plan something, it's
like, oh, my God, this guy?
Well, it's because I've, I've,we've probably had one instance
in the past where you asked me aquestion, I knew that you are
anchoring that question withwhat is the state of our
relationship, right? So everytime then you asked me, hey,
let's, let's go do something orwould you like to go here? I'm
(34:42):
like, Oh, my God. She's tryingto figure out what the state of
our relationship is. She'sanchoring these questions to
figure out Hey, is he willing todo this thing with me in the
future, knowing where ourrelationship is right now, when
in actuality he could have justbeen asking Do you want to go to
Italy at some point, right?
Exactly. Yeah, there, thereprobably was a mixture of those
(35:06):
but me approaching and followingthe narrative that every time
you ask me you want to dosomething and thinking directly
into that and falling back intothat tunnel. This is probably
not good at all right? Yeah.
It's like, then there's likethis fear on your end of like, I
hope I can ask him what he wantsfor dinner. I also created this
feeling for you that you had towalk on eggshells. And but it
(35:33):
was mostly in my head that I,you know, I use this one
instance, where like, you use aquestion to anchor, you know,
the state of our well being andour relationship. And I just,
you know, I use that one. Yeah,that one narrative across
everything now. Right. So I'mgetting rid of that. But, yeah,
(35:54):
so I definitely want toapologize for that. Because
that's, you know, something thatI know really weighed heavily on
her, she doesn't go anywhere.
Like, you know, even though mybirthday, she's like, Hey, can
we can I make reservations?
Don't ask me about reservationsright now. Right? It's, it's
(36:15):
like work. So for me now, oneinstance, it was like, Hey, I
don't know, the time I'm gettingoff work. But at the same time,
you know, I still felt thatwhatever anti gave you it was
gonna be an anchoring questionto the state of our
relationship. And so I reallywant to apologize for that, it
did create a lot of shit in ourrelationship that creates the
(36:37):
shit show. Yeah. And that's thebig, big part, my fault for
sure.
Angus Ross (36:48):
So for the benefit of the listener, I think it
would be worthwhile to maybetake a look at what he means by
these anchoring questions.
Because I remember beingconfused by this at the time. So
my understanding is that theseanchoring questions visa v. I
don't know, let's use theexample of like, what are we
(37:08):
going to do for dinner tonight?
Or what are we going to do onyour birthday? Somehow suggest
that she is looking for adescriptor of their relationship
in respect to whatever answerhe's going to give? I don't
know. I'd love to get yourfeedback on that. Because I feel
like I want a little bit moreclarification.
Rohini Ross (37:30):
Well, what I think he's saying is that at least you
would ask him these questions asa fishing expedition to see if
he was going to be with her onhis birthday. And so if she
asked him, would you like to goto Italy? It was a fishing
expedition to see if he wasgoing to say yes, because then
that would mean he would staywith her and go to Italy
(37:52):
together.
Angus Ross (37:53):
Right? Well, he should have said fishing.
shouldn't be talking aboutdropping anchor.
Rohini Ross (37:59):
I think he felt anchored by questions.
Angus Ross (38:03):
Oh, well, I would like I think he should have
maybe it should be more of aball and chain put round is.
Rohini Ross (38:07):
Yes, I think that's right.
Angus Ross (38:10):
So I was confused by that metaphor, anyway. Well,
thank you.
Rohini Ross (38:15):
I'm glad you cleared that up. Is there
anything else?
Angus Ross (38:18):
I think we can move on from there.
Rohini Ross (38:19):
Well, I do want to comment on the fact that he
connected with his conscience.
And he actually felt empathy forAlicia and recognize that
because of how he was behaving,that she felt like she had to
walk on eggshells around him,because she didn't know what she
could ask him what was okay,what wasn't okay. So for me,
(38:40):
that was really significant thathe had opened up in that way to
have empathy for her.
Angus Ross (38:47):
Yeah. And it was a very touching moment. And it
also, I realized that in one ofour sessions, he actually asked
me if he should apologize. And Ididn't want to find myself in a
situation where I was leadingthe witness, I felt like this is
something that needs to show uporganically. So I remember
prompting him to just to befollowed by his wisdom. And if
(39:08):
that feels appropriate, thenabsolutely. But I certainly
didn't encourage him to do that.
So it did. It did show uporganically. And it showed up in
a really beautiful way. So itwas it was really wonderful to
witness that.
Rohini Ross (39:21):
Yeah, it was.
Mateo (39:32):
I mean, the thing that's sort of our problems, right,
yeah. We're creating thisnarrative, maybe a piece of it
is from truth. But we're nowelongating the story to consumer
ourselves. Yeah.
Angus Ross (39:45):
Yeah. And then the issue is, along with that
narrative becomes the comesalong or physiology becomes the
feeling. Yeah, actually, youknow, lead to health issues and
all kinds of problems.
Mateo (39:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
Angus Ross (39:56):
Yeah, things that are detrimental to our well
being.
Rohini Ross (39:59):
Yeah, so being able to see kind of the universal
nature of what we're talkingabout helps with everything
helps with anxiety, we talkedabout anxiety helps with anxiety
helps with depression helps withcommunication, like there's not
one area of life where, where wedon't feel our thinking. So of
course, this understanding isgoing to be applicable across
the board. I hear both saying,like, we got to go live our life
(40:21):
now and see how this lands andsee what sticks. And the follow
up sessions are really there tohelp you integrate what you've
seen. And make sure that it'slanding and sticking in day to
day life. If you're struggling,or you know, if you're having a
hard time you have our email. Sojust reach out, don't wait, if
you're having if something goeswrong. And you're like, Well,
(40:43):
that was a waste of time, likereach out before because it's
usually just a little coursecorrection. That's even I'm not
saying that's going to happen.
But I don't want you to feel it.
Oh, let's wait and save that fortwo weeks.
Mateo (40:54):
Really weird. I don't even think of that could even
happen.
Rohini Ross (40:58):
Yeah, that's great.
I love that.
Angus Ross (40:59):
Oh, my goodness me what a far cry from that very
first session where they werecompletely polarized. He's now
saying, I can't imagine therebeing any kind of imagine there
being any problems from here onout or words to that effect.
(41:22):
That's extraordinary. Andobviously, we've done our best
to caution in that respects. Butthat's not particularly likely.
But how beautiful that thatthere has been this 180 and
that, you know, I mean, thedivorce papers were drawn up,
and look where we are now. I'msure in his wildest dreams, he
(41:46):
couldn't imagine himself beingin this place in this mindset,
this point.
Rohini Ross (41:51):
Yeah, there's a really beautiful space that
they've dropped into. And wetalk about that a little bit
more in this next section.
Angus Ross (41:56):
Yeah. They took the needle off the record.
I'm struck by that seems likeyeah, you guys now. I think
that's that's the sweet spot.
You know, once we recognize thatgood feeling, and we live our
lives from that placeeverything. Yeah, just looks so
(42:17):
much better.
Mateo (42:20):
Yeah, I mean, there's a reason why we got together and
why we've stuck with each other,even through all the turbulence.
You know, we've been wantingthat taste of that, like, Oh, my
God, you know, like, this is theperson there's glimpses of that,
but I think this way we canactually, this can be the norm,
(42:40):
right? Not those glimpses at thenorm. Exactly. Bullshit can
become this. Who cares, right?
Yeah, that's sweet.
Rohini Ross (42:50):
Yeah, I love that.
It's a flip. It's like thisbecomes a norm. And yeah,
there's a little bit ofbullshit. That's part of being
human. We're all human. We'renot perfect. And it's like, man,
I can roll with that.
Mateo (43:00):
Yeah.
Alicia (43:01):
I mean, I know, I'm super like, excited now. And I
feel like I told you last night,like, I feel like we've been
given such a blessing. Like, Ifeel like everybody should go
through this process, whetherthey have an issue or not,
because not only do you get asounder, like feeling of
yourself and knowing yourself,but then how to even deal with
everybody in your life, and thenhow to just make your household
(43:23):
alone, just its happy pot, andknow that there's going to be
issues at times, but doesn'thave to be that and you can just
be excited and be newlyweds forforever. In a sense.
Mateo (43:32):
Yeah, there's gonna be issues, but you don't they
create a long life narrativearound that one issue. And yeah,
it's it does, you don't have tobe in a relationship to go
through it. It is, it sounds soeasy, something you should teach
in school.
Angus Ross (43:53):
There is people doing that
Mateo (43:54):
There's a lot of mental health that can probably be
corrected or even avoided bythis, this type of approach to
life. And it's just thought,whoa, what if I learned this 15
years ago? Like what would lifebe like? Like, whoa, I'm
(44:16):
imagining, like, that's 15 yearsold, he gets to go through this
and goes to college without thisnegative narrative that he's
building up in his mind. Imaginelike, what could be achieved?
It's just like, Whoa, what am I?
What happened?
Angus Ross (44:31):
You used the word innocence. But I think that,
that's kind of key in a sense isif you actually think about
kids, young kids, they havetheir moments of imbalance and
they get all upset and then liketwo seconds later, they're way
back back in. Anythingseriously, somehow that kind of
(44:52):
gets programmed differently aswe go through all the lessons or
whatever
Alicia (44:58):
I think are so conditioned to things like we
discuss like you're conditionedto think negatively, sometimes
you're conditioned to think thatthings are going wrong when
they're actually not.
Angus Ross (45:11):
Well, I guess what's really wonderful here is that is
how they're excited to see howwhat they've learned in this
experience is going to bebeneficial to them in all other
areas of their lives.
Rohini Ross (45:26):
Yeah, it's really powerful when people can
generalize and start putting thedots together for themselves.
That's one of the signs that Ilook forward to see if they're
integrating what's being sharedthat they're now making
references to see how it willhelp in all relationships, not
just their relationship. I thinkthat's what we've been pointing
(45:47):
to throughout this wholepodcast, not just to them, but
to everyone who's listening isthat there is that space within
have wisdom, of intuition ofknowing that we all have
accessible and available to us.
But what happens is we getcaught up in our personal
thinking and in the stories thatwe've created, and the condition
limited thoughts of our mind,and we forget to listen to that
(46:11):
deeper place within ourselves.
And that's what we're pointingto in terms of the rewilding to
allow ourselves to listendeeply. And to let that flourish
within us.
Angus Ross (46:22):
Yeah, I mean, maybe it is the greatest, greatest
validation that this is allworking as they start to see it
in those terms in a veryuniversal way.
Rohini Ross (46:32):
Absolutely.
We're gonna take segments andput it together in a podcast
format, so that more people canlearn this understanding and so
that less people suffer. Soreally very grateful you're
willing to participate,.
Mateo (46:50):
We are more grateful to you guys than you. I can measure
that.
Rohini Ross (46:58):
Know, thank you.
Because this, you know, like,you're saying, we want to make a
difference in the world. Andthis is one of the ways that we
can, we can't work with that wecan only work with a certain
number of people, but this ishow we can impact more lives.
And in a way that's free.
Alicia (47:14):
Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I said from the
start is if it can help otherpeople, not go through what we
went through or how correct itlike, I'm so willing to do so
because I feel like everybodygoes through marital issues,
everybody goes throughrelationship issues. And so it's
so important to kind of coursecorrect and realize, like where
you are going wrong, and I thinkif this can help, even one
(47:37):
person, I think it's done itsjob tenfold.
Mateo (47:41):
I think it will, and I don't think person needs to be
in relationships or anything.
It's just, it's our innatewithin us to protect ourselves,
which is create stories ofknowing how to handle the
mugger, right, walking behindyou, all these different things
and and that does affectpeople's lives. And just being
able to release, you know, anypreconceived notions or, you
(48:01):
know, play out that you'vecreated in your mind, I think is
just very blissful, freeing,liberating. Yeah, there we go.
Angus Ross (48:20):
It would be easy to think that we have reached that
Hollywood ending, or thesentimental ending that I always
wanted. But we're not done yet.
Maybe it's more of a more of aminiseries rather than a movie
where everything is very tightlywrapped up at the end, because
we haven't gotten to that pointyet. But nevertheless, I don't
(48:43):
really want to finish herewithout saying how incredible it
is, in terms of where they havecome to, and what they've seen,
and all that they have learned.
And this beautiful feeling thatthey've really found themselves
in a very short period of time,when you consider that that
(49:05):
feeling has not been part of theequation, probably for many
months, borne out by the factthat divorce papers were drawn
up. And there was really littleroom for recovery as far as they
could see it as far as Mateocould see it anyway. Where they
are now is just it'sflabbergasting. I haven't used
(49:26):
that word for probably I don'tknow. I don't know if I've ever
used that word. But I'm using itnow. I am flabbergasted.
Rohini Ross (49:34):
Well, I too want to acknowledge them because where
they got to really demonstratestheir willingness, their clarity
of intention, their openmindedness, their open
heartedness, they really showedup authentically, honestly, and
we're open to having a shift andit was really beautifully
(49:57):
demonstrated and what they share
Angus Ross (50:01):
Yeah, and I guess now it's kind of like as we see
it, they are baby rewilders, andwe have put on their baby
harness that going out into thebig wide world. And we're gonna
be there to reel them in fromtime to time, because
inevitably, they are going tohave challenges. And I think
it's easy to sort of get caughtup in the moment and see that
(50:24):
there's no possibility of theregoing to be another challenge in
science. But I would say watchthis space, and we're here to
hold their hand as it were.
Rohini Ross (50:34):
Or what I would say is that the work that we did an
intensive, I think, opened up alevel of honesty and truth. And
in that space, whatever needs tobe healed and resolved is going
to show up. And so as much asthey ended on a high note, they
also created a space for truthto come in. And there were still
(50:56):
things that were unresolved atthis point that we hadn't
addressed.
Angus Ross (50:58):
Yeah. And that truth isn't always going to be that
friendly, or that comfortable.
And so yeah, there's still workto be done here.
Rohini Ross (51:08):
Yeah, growth in consciousness isn't always
comfortable. It usually rarelyis.
Angus Ross (51:12):
That's true. And you know, and as I see it, growth in
consciousness really comes it'slike resistance training, we're
not going to really learn unlesswe come up against challenge. So
I think it would be foolish orfolly to think that, you know,
we're going to go through therest of our lives without
challenge and not come upagainst resistance. Absolutely.
(51:32):
And that's our growing edge.
Rohini Ross (51:34):
So to be continued more to come. And also, Angus
and I are going to be doing someask us anything, podcast
episodes. And so we invite youto send us your questions about
the podcast, about relationshipsin general, or anything else
that you'd like to know. And youcan send them in to us via
(51:55):
email, at info@therewilders.org.
Or if you'd like to send in yourquestion anonymously, we have a
voicemail that you can leaveyour questions on and I'm just
going to look that out rightnow.
Angus Ross (52:12):
And I would encourage you if you have any
really difficult questions toaddress them to Rohini
Rohini Ross (52:21):
The voicemail number is 424-272-6497. That's
424-272-6497. And if you leaveit on the voicemail, we could
also include your voice in thepodcast, so that would be kind
of nice. So we'd love to hearfrom you. We'd love to know more
(52:42):
about what you're getting out ofthe series, but we definitely
want to make sure that we'reanswering any questions that you
have.
Angus Ross (52:51):
That's wonderful, not much more to be said at this
point.
Rohini Ross (52:53):
All right. Until the next time
This is Episode 12.
Part Two of Key RelationshipTakeaways.
We're excited to let you knowthat we're going to be doing
some ask anything podcastepisodes. And so we'd love to
hear from you. If you have anyquestions about the podcast
(00:23):
about relationships in general,or any other questions that
you'd like us to answer, we'dlove for you to send them in.
And so you can send them in viaemail to info at the
rewinders.org info at therewilding org. Or if you'd like
to send in your questionanonymously, you can call your
question in 24242726497. That's424-272-6497.
(01:10):
In this episode, we're going tocontinue listening to the
learnings that Alicia and Mateoare taking home with them. And
we're gonna start off withMateo's question.
Mateo (01:30):
When you realize right, that your partner is acting this
way, is not neutral, but wantsto have this conversation. I'm
guilty of it as well. The otherone's supposed to tell them
without being condescending,like, Hey, I don't control your
remote. Right? Like, how can webe like, hey, let's, cuz I mean,
(01:50):
I mean, Alicia knows, she doesit to me, too. It's, you know,
we're like, Hey, you know,you're, I see that you're angry
when we talk about this later.
But it's like, no, I gotta getthis out. Yeah, right. Yeah. How
do we set the boundary whereit's conducive to the actual
conversation to not have amoment and have it later on?
Rohini Ross (02:07):
Well, why don't you you talk about this now, like,
rather than us tell you how todo it. Like what makes like,
based on what you know, like,Okay, if that situation is
happening, she's in a stirred upstate of mind is temporary. But
she's crazy in that moment, orwhat was the other way? You're
crazy in that moment. So one ofyou is temporarily insane acting
and behaving badly. The otherperson in this scenario hasn't
(02:31):
lost their mind yet, which isgood. And it's like, oh, boy,
what do I do in the face ofsomebody that's doing that?
Like, based on what youunderstand about it's temporary?
She's gonna come back to hersenses? What makes sense to you?
Mateo (02:46):
I don't know. Cuz it sounds really good. Just to be
like, Hey, you know, why don'twe take a break from this. But,
you know, the narrative Ialready have built up in my head
is tried that and, and sometimesit doesn't work out as well.
Sometimes it really does. Butother times, it's like, hey,
yeah, I'm really cold. But I'mstill really pissed off. And I'm
(03:07):
going to show you that I'mpissed off, right? Yeah.
Rohini Ross (03:09):
And that's the non neutral.
Mateo (03:11):
That's like the non neutral kind of psychotic, like,
smile on your face, but reallyraging and Oh, God, right. So
I'm trying to figure out how weboth don't run into that
situation where it's like, Hey,I can totally tell that you're,
you're scrambled. Why don't weWhy don't we hit but I also
don't want to say that and, youknow, cuz you're like, Oh, my
(03:34):
God, he's just using this orshe's just using this as a as a
way to not have thisconversation right now.
Angus Ross (03:41):
I cannot Can I say something? I kind of know what
you're getting at? In a sense.
You were asking for like animprovisational moment. Yeah,
you would actually try it on forsize. Like in this moment? What
do you think your wisdom wouldbe prompting you to do if faced
with that situation?
Mateo (03:57):
Well, I'm really hope I'm really hopeful. It's not going
to happen.
Rohini Ross (04:00):
It's probably gonna happen.
Angus Ross (04:03):
definitely happen!
Mateo (04:03):
I don't want not even a narrative at this moment. But I
don't want what is taking placein the past to occur.
Rohini Ross (04:11):
Yeah. So can I just say, one of the things that
occurs to me is that if you keepit to your experience, so you
don't even need to talk aboutthe other person, because that
is when someone is upset. Like,if I say to Angus, you're in a
low mood, and he's in a low moodas I'm not a low mood, you know,
it's like, the typical answer.
And the same for me if thathappens in my world, so so
that's not a good route to go.
(04:33):
Absolutely. But if you'respeaking to your own experience,
it's like if Angus is in a lowmood, and I'm getting like, if
I'm totally fine, I won't evenneed to say anything about it.
But if he's really angry andupset, and I'm starting to get
destabilized because I can't,you know, I'm not able to handle
it, and I can just speak tothat. So I'm not able to handle
that. Right. Like I need to gosettle my mind. I'm not feeling
(04:56):
okay. So it doesn't have to beanything to do with him. It
could be all to do with I'mtaking care of myself and sorry,
not able to have thisconversation now I'm just not
it's not going to go well. Andso but I want to have it now we
can believe it walking away. Notthat he would say that. I'll be
one saying that to him. It wouldbe like, Yeah, well, you know
that she's gonna stabilize,she's lost her mind. You can't
(05:17):
take what she's sayingseriously.
Alicia (05:20):
I think it's also...
Mateo (05:21):
scary. I feel like it's gonna happen, like in a cartoon,
right? Yeah,
Alicia (05:29):
but you're making a narrative.
Mateo (05:30):
right? No, no, I know.
It's like, hey, she's freakingout. Yellow ran on my Hey, I
understand. Let me let me goaway for a little bit. And let
me like, allow me to get away sothat we can both be in a neutral
mood, right, I close the door.
There's a cartoon, professionalcartoon.
Alicia (05:55):
I think it just kind of one of those things. I think we
both have been now awakened tothis higher power of mind and
recognizing these littletriggers. I don't think that
both of us did not know that atall previous to coming into
this. So I think that'ssomething that now we'll both be
a little bit more aware of. Ithink also, potentially, the
approach could be like, maybe inthe sense of like, you know
(06:17):
what, I do want to have thisconversation, but I'm not in a
good mood right now. So maybe werevisit this and like a
different portion. Because ifyou're making me upset, or Well,
you can't do that. But
Rohini Ross (06:27):
if you think he is, yeah,
Alicia (06:29):
yeah, yeah. Like, you know, if I'm starting to get
stirred up by whatever you'redoing, I could just be like, you
know, what, I'm in a really badmood. But I do want to talk to
you about this, but let me gotake that out or something,
something of those lines thatwe, we bring back a neutral
state or the like, whateveryou're doing is just making me
like grr, but you're not butit's now me and my thoughts. I
have to just be like, Okay, I'mgonna pause for a second and go
(06:52):
watch Housewives or something.
and then like, destabilize mymind.
Mateo (07:01):
I'm more feeling like feelings of trepidation come
when it's, you're going to behaving a mood. And I noticed
that you're not pulling awayfrom the current state. And I
want to, and, you know, you getangry at me, like when I say,
(07:21):
you know, like, I hear you,like, I understand, you're
saying, No, I know what you'redoing to me, you know, you say,
hear me, but you know, right,like, I'm trying to avoid
escalation of situation. And Ido many times, you know, say,
Hey, we're probably not the bestright now to have these
conversations yet, keeps pushingto have those conversations,
(07:43):
I've been using the phrase, likepoking the Buddha, like, I'm
trying to be very neutral, andbe like, you know, I don't want
to do this. And it's not beingdismissive. For me, it's more,
let's have the conversationwhen, you know, we're both even
keel, right. And I tried to backout of it, and it's not backing
out, like I want to run away,but it's backing out, like, Hey,
(08:04):
I understand right now, theconversation is probably not the
best time to be had. I justdon't want you to get upset
when, you know, I do pull awayin those moments. And I don't
want you to think that I'm justrunning away from my problems.
It's running away from theintensity of the problem when I
know it can be handled at adifferent level.
Alicia (08:22):
I completely agree with you, I think that prevented
this, like, I was not open tothat. And when we went through,
you know, premarital counselingbefore we got married, one of
the things that like was told uslike, say that I hear us or I
understand you and like that, tome was a trigger, because I'm
like, are you really listening?
It's, it's no, it's like fake.
And so I think now my mind is alittle bit more open and more
(08:44):
accepting to perhaps the way youapproach that this time around.
Because now that I understandthat how my mind kind of works
and the complexities of it, isthat I'm already just listening
to noise, but trying to beneutral, and it's not really
work. And so what we'vediscussed is just like when I go
through that, like remember thatI'm overthinking remember that
I'm being crazy, just take yourhands off the wheel and just be
(09:05):
like, Alright, you know, whenyou've got a point, let's let's
discuss this later. And let'sdiscuss this in more neutral
state of mind, because I amupset right now. And I'm getting
angered by whatever, and I'mallowing those angry feelings to
come through. So it's just, it'sgonna be, like we said, it's a
learning curve. And it's goingto be practice and there's going
to be slip ups and there's goingto be moments, but to try to
reel it back as back as quicklyas possible to bounce back in a
(09:27):
positive state i think is goingto be the most positive way that
we grow and build on it.
Rohini Ross (09:31):
Yeah. So what I hear you saying is that you
didn't see this before youdidn't see the wisdom crunches
way of doing it before now, Isee that Oh, actually, that's a
good idea. So that means farmore the time Alicia be like
yeah, you're right. But notalways. So I want to point that
out, not always and what I wouldsay if you still have the wisdom
(09:51):
to step back, even though shedoesn't like it, step back. She
will be fine.
This is a big concern of Mateo.
And he brings it up severaltimes in a few different ways.
And he's really not trustingthat Alicia has seen something
(10:12):
that's going to shift herbehavior. And he's also not
trusting himself, that he'sgoing to be able to access his
own wisdom in the moment. And sohere he is, again, looking for
the How To Guide.
Angus Ross (10:28):
Yes, it didn't take long for the need for the How To
Guide to be demanded. But isobviously thinking about his
experience leading up to thispoint, I think he's probably
used that very technique, if youlike, it's been weaponized in a
(10:50):
way where he's probably used itto his advantage. So if he
doesn't like what he's hearing,or like how at least you're
showing up, then he kind of getsto batten down the hatches, but
still be in a place ofrighteousness and judgment. So
it's gonna be a whole differentballgame to be able to see it
from a vantage point where hecan suggest that neutrally,
(11:13):
rather than it be a case oflike, you know, I'm not talking
to you now. And it'd be more ofan FU, rather than a case of
just looking after himself orlooking after her too. It's
like, if he can get to a placeof compassion and see, see that
she's suffering, that's what'skey, and not take that
personally, then he canwithdraw. But if it's a case of
(11:35):
like, No, you've lost the plot.
And he has a lot of judgment forthat, that she's gonna feel that
no uncertain terms. Andprobably, I imagine there have
been many a situation in thepast where that's been the
dynamic that's played out.
Rohini Ross (11:49):
Yeah, that's a really important point about the
judgment. Because our partnerscan feel that judgment. And it
doesn't typically go well, ifthey're having a hard time. But
most importantly, we're the onessuffering when we're identifying
with our judgmental thoughts.
We're creating suffering forourselves. So it doesn't help
the relationship. But it alsodoesn't do us any good either.
Angus Ross (12:12):
Yeah, no, exactly.
And I think if he's coming fromthat place of judgment, and I
imagine, I don't know, I have asneaking suspicion that the
general dynamic would be, oh,you, you've lost the plot here,
I've got the higher ground. AndI'm going to walk away and
probably inflame the situationin no uncertain terms. Whereas
he's coming from a place ofunderstanding of compassion can
(12:35):
see that she's caught up andsuffering, then she'll have,
she'll have an entirelydifferent experience. They both
will.
Rohini Ross (12:46):
Absolutely, well, let's see where he gets to.
Mateo (12:55):
Yeah, I just don't want anything, you know, hurtful
being said in those moments whenI'm walking out the door to go
take the dog out and like steakand take a break. Because, like
I said, a lot of hurtful stuffgets like curled around. And
it's not what we're here for is,you know, to be okay with the
(13:16):
barrage of insults. And so, so,I just wanted to be okay. And I
really, I mean, I'm reallyexcited, but I'm also very
afraid. I'm not shouldn't beright, because nothing's
occurred yet, but talking aboutthis, you know, losing the
tolerance, right, this tolerancethat you've built up and it
(13:39):
becomes more intense, becauseyou lose the tolerance. I'm kind
of like, Whoa, shit, like if webuilt the tolerance for the past
like seven years and you know,we remove that tolerance game I
know what has taken place in thepassing God knows what's gonna
(13:59):
happen, you know?
Rohini Ross (14:00):
But the tolerance is not that you've lost your
tolerance for her behavior, it'sactually you've lost a tolerance
for your own stirred up mind. Soin that situation, it's quite
possible that if you're reallyyou know, not buying into your
narrative, not in your storythat she she could be doing her
thing and you could be feelinglike, yeah, it's a good idea to
leave it, you're not evennecessarily upset by it, because
(14:24):
you're not taking it personally.
You see, like, Oh, she's reallyjust not okay, right now she's
suffering and her behaviors thathave nothing to do with me, it's
a reflection of her suffering inthis moment. She's not always
going to be suffering. And soyou go walk the dog and she's
doing whatever she's doing, butwhen, when it's not taken
personally, it doesn't hurt. Itdoesn't hurt. So I'm not and I
was really clear with Alicia,that I was not about condoning
(14:47):
bad behavior. So an Angus and Iare not here to you know, say
it's a free for all. Weabsolutely encourage each of you
to be your best selves, whichmeans to not behave badly, but
we also aware that at times. Andmy sense is based on what you
both seen, that will be a lotless frequently. But at times,
we're not perfect, we behavedbadly, I make mistakes, you
(15:08):
know, Alicia's gonna makemistakes, you're gonna make
mistakes, that's life. But withthis understanding, it actually
has less impact, because themore that you can see, your
suffering comes from, it's notwhat she's saying, is what
you're doing with your head withwhat she's saying. Right? So if
Angus calls me a bitch, hedoesn't call me a bitch. But
(15:30):
let's say he was to call me abitch...
Angus Ross (15:33):
Sometimes i think it.
Rohini Ross (15:36):
But let's say let's say he says it. If I'm in a
really good state of mind, I'llbe like, God, what's going on
with him that he's so stirred uplike, it wouldn't even hurt. If
I'm in a bad state of mind, hecould say something nice to me.
And I, you know, be off to theraces. I can't believe you said
that. But it but it's all aboutmy state of mind. It's got
nothing to do with his behavior.
And this is where thisunderstanding had a huge impact
(15:58):
on me because I used to be supersensitive to his irritability
and anger. And I would take itvery personally. And it would
just be this escalation, becausehe might be a little irritated.
But I would take it personally.
And that would escalate, andthen he would escalate, and then
I would escalate, and then, youknow, we're off to the races. So
then what happened? Yeah, it'spretty much what happened. But
(16:22):
what happened when I saw thisfor myself, the first time is I
realized I Oh, I, I don't feelhim. I feel my own thinking. And
it's not like he's doingsomething to me. It's I'm like
you said, I'm doing this tomyself. And what it and and in
that sort of taking the pressureoff, I just dropped into a more
(16:43):
stable state inside of myself.
And so the next time that he,you know, got mad at me over
something. It wasn't that kneejerk reaction of like, I can't
believe you're getting mad atme. It was like, Oh, he's not
okay. Like, it wasn't anythingto do with me. It's like, Oh,
he's just not okay. In thismoment, like camera what I said
to you, but I said somethingthat was really there, and
(17:06):
you're like, What the hell'sgoing on with her. But it was
like, it changes the experience,because you see it more clearly.
It's like, you see her state ofmind. And when you see it's her
state of mind, it's not personalanymore. Like, it's she's
suffering, if she's, and this ishypothetical, not giving you
permission to behave badly. Butif she's behaving badly, and you
(17:27):
just see it's her state of mind,and she's suffering, it's got
nothing to do with you. Not thatyou have to stay there and you
know, be on the receiving end ofit. But you don't feel bad,
because you just you might evenI felt compassion. He was
yelling at me. And I feltcompassion for him. Oh, he's not
okay, right now? Because that'snot her natural state. That's
(17:50):
not how she is, unless she'skind of losing her mind in that
moment.
Angus Ross (18:01):
Yeah, yes. So he's already talked about doing risk
analysis for a living. And youcan start to see where he's
already starting to turn over inhis mind, all of the possible
scenarios that he might have toface in the future, based on
experiences and you know, thathe can drum up from the past. So
(18:23):
I guess that's where is thatwhere the mistrust lies? Is it
or is it just that's just howhis mind works? That's just how
he lives and operate looking atlooking at it from the risk
analysis vantage point. So Iguess you can see where he's not
willing to fully trust it yet.
He's seen something for sure.
(18:45):
But it is a little bit, I guess,it's hard not to, for me to be a
little bit disappointed based onthe insight that really has just
unfolded, that he's already nowstarting to question. But that's
just maybe how his mind worksand operates.
Rohini Ross (18:59):
Well, that's the learning curve. Like we said,
there's no magic bullet, he'sgoing to have that insight be
revealed to him over time, andit will deepen and expand. And
you're right, he's gone backinto his default mode and is
trying to figure things outahead of time. And it's coming
from a good place he wants it towork out he's just feeling
insecure. And he's going to whathe's familiar with which is his
(19:24):
intellect to try and figure thatout.
Angus Ross (19:25):
Yeah. And any wants to weigh he wants to really come
away with this is all done anddusted. This is behind this. Now
we're good to go. And, and it'smore a case of I you know, we've
just given you maybe some somepointers in terms of how to how
to live your life in a moreeffective way where challenges
will emerge. And we're justgiving you the technology if
(19:47):
you'd like to be able to weatherthose storms as and when they
appear.
Rohini Ross (19:52):
Yeah, more gracefully, gracefully. And I
want to emphasize that The pointthat I was making here is not a
point that is condoning hurtfulor abusive behavior. I do
What do you do if,you know, thisone's faking being level headed.
believe that when we see thatthe the person who is behaving
(20:15):
in a hurtful way, when we seethat it's their state of mind.
And that it's not personal, thatthat is incredibly liberating
and empowering and helpful. Andthat's been my personal
experience, because I used to beso hurt by your behavior, and
your anger was something that Itook very personally. And so
(20:39):
when I was able to recognizethat that was just a reflection
of your state of mind, that wasreally liberating for me. But I
want to emphasize that we'renever going to say that somebody
needs to stay in a situationwhere the partner is behaving,
and hurtful ways that that's thedecision of the person in the
(21:00):
relationship. And what I'll alsosay is that when we're able to
not take it personally, I thinkit's easier for people to have
clarity on what the right actionis, what the most self honoring
choices, and if that is to leavethe relationship, there'll be a
whole lot more clear.
understanding what's really aplay. And so, Mateo is still in
his questioning mode.
Mateo (21:43):
Someone could be very psycho and have a smile and be
like, Yeah, definitely. Okay.
Right.
Rohini Ross (21:57):
You could say I'm not ready. And I don't like I
want to acknowledge what yousaid, Alicia is like she has a
whole different appreciatebecause we talked about neutral.
We talked about money, we talkedabout this. And we talked about
how we can think we're neutral,and we're nowhere near neutral.
(22:18):
So she's going to be gettingbetter at being honest with
herself about what neutral is,right? Like, that's just you
getting more clearly Oh, Ithought I was neutral. But I
wasn't neutral. So that's herlearning curve, too. So
everything that you're haveconcerns about, she's had
insights about we've talkedabout these specific things,
that even you having to say thatwe've we've addressed them. And
(22:41):
she's seeing somethingdifferently. Yeah, no, I'm not
making this up. So. So she'slike, recognizing that, oh,
maybe I thought it was neutral,but I wasn't neutral. And like
we've talked about what doesneutral really feel like? How do
you know when you're neutral? Soshe's got more of a sense of
that. We've talked about how itdoes make sense to start the
(23:04):
conversation when one of you isdestabilized. And it's a good
thing to do. Because it's just areflection of that state of
mind. And only thing is going tohappen is escalation from there.
So there was no argument for heron any of those things. Like she
completely saw the logic in it,it makes sense to her something
that's accomplished, right? Soyou're using it differently. So
(23:27):
before you were like, wait, youknow, like,
Alicia (23:29):
I want to nip it in the bud.
Rohini Ross (23:30):
Exactly. So now it's like different reaction.
Mateo (23:32):
Reactivity in the butt.
Angus Ross (24:08):
Throw into that equation that we we talked at
length about, you know, there'snothing that she can do really
to make you suffer, it's onlyyour own thinking, right? So the
combination, put all thattogether, we should be hopefully
moving in a very good direction.
Mateo (24:23):
Yeah, I like I said, I'm really excited. I, you know,
like I said before, I likehaving your redirections right.
I want steps, you know, onethrough 10. And I know that also
not, right? That's also adifferent narrative that you're
building inside your mind. Butit's innate within me to be
prepared.
Rohini Ross (24:42):
Exactly. That's it.
And that's why it's not reallyabout us telling you what to do.
Even though we've givenexamples. It's about you seeing
that you have that innateknowing that it's gonna be right
there in the moment and when youhave a certain level of
understanding that knowingmatches that understanding so
You knew all along, but itwasn't good to engage from that
place. So that's not going to goaway. But you're also going to
(25:05):
have more understanding nowabout how to not take her
behavior personally.
Mateo (25:12):
Well, it's like, I just see it playing out where she's
tripping and I'm on the couchlike she gonna get in real life.
She's not gonna look at me andjust laugh.
Rohini Ross (25:41):
He finally got there in the end, where he saw
that it's innate within him tobe prepared. Like he all of a
sudden, realize that he has itwithin himself. And I think
that's great.
Angus Ross (25:54):
Now the force is strong in this one. I get does
that make me Obi Wan Kenobi? Oh,Yoda.
Rohini Ross (26:06):
Yoda might be above your paygrade.
Angus Ross (26:08):
Probably more Jabba the Hutt.
Rohini Ross (26:12):
That's terrible.
No, you're my Luke Skywalker.
Angus Ross (26:16):
Oh, thank you. Yeah, well, you're my princess Leia in
any day of the week? Well, yeah,no, I think what for me is is so
prevalent now as this is really,as this is the levity, that
obviously is very apparent, andthat there's this beautiful
feeling between them. And we getto witness them kind of joking
(26:39):
around with each other in a waywhere there is a lot of
profundity in that jokingaround, they've obviously seen
something, and can see how thiscan work. And I think that, you
know, let's hope this becomesthis wonderful reference point
for the moving forward, thatthey can get along. Who knew?
Rohini Ross (26:59):
Yeah, that's right.
Well, so now we're gonna have alittle storytime with Angus.
Angus Ross (27:05):
Oh, Can I tell the story about when
I was doing the apprenticeshipwith the Pransky's? Basically
spent four days having thesekind of conversations being told
(27:26):
about you know, how she can't beresponsible for anything that
you feel inside. That's all downto you. And I'm like, Okay, that
sounds kind of simple. That'snot really how it works. But
something was progressivelylanding over those four days, by
couldn't kind of put quite putmy finger on it. Although George
our mentor would say that I sawsomething in the first session.
(27:49):
That kind of feels a little bitlike hyperbole to me, but I
think he probably was right. Ithink I wasn't really that
conscious of what was going on,I was hearing something but at a
different level than I couldgrasp a hold off with my
intellect. So when we got backhome, we were home for a week,
and we were just getting on likea house on fire. Everything was
just beautiful. We're justgetting on so well. So perfectly
(28:11):
connected. In my mind, it wasjust great. Our marriage had not
been in such a good place for aslong as I could remember. And
then I think it was on maybe thesecond week, there was one day
and something I don't know, Iwas probably in a really, really
low mood, you were probably tooin a low mood, it was the
perfect storm. And just the shitreally hit the fan in no
(28:34):
uncertain terms. And I just likegot more and more escalated.
And, and it got to this pointwhere it started in the
afternoon and went on into theevening, we went to bed, we
slept on it, we hadn't made upand then I wake up in the
morning, I'm testing the water,we're still in the same place.
Sucks. I remember going into thekitchen, and I'm just about to
(28:57):
leave to go to work. And then Ithought I gotta go back in. I'm
going to have you know, my lastkind of a bit of a last word
freak. I'm going to go in andhave my say and I'm like, and
I'm really angry, but I kind ofscripted in my mind what I was
going to say to her so Im goingto go into the foot of the bed
and just, like starteddelivering all this vitriol
(29:18):
about how, look what we'redoing, like, you know, you've
invested all this money in moresort of psychological snake oil.
And we're exactly the same placewhere like, and literally as I
started to articulate, you knowwhat I wanted to say, I just
suddenly had this sort of reallyweird out of the box experience.
It's the only way I can describeit where I'm just like this just
(29:38):
like I just saw he was I can'teven remember how this started.
I don't remember what we'refighting about. But yet here I
am. There's my body. I'm lookingat me just spewing out all this
vomit on my wife. And it justfelt first of all it felt
nonsensical and then I kind oflike it just felt just totally
it just felt just completely. Idon't know how to define it, it
(30:02):
just felt wrong. It just didn'tsit. This just didn't sit right
with me. It was so much theantithesis of my well being. It
was almost like I suddenly tookthe needle off the record, was
looking at it from theperspective of this
understanding and a feeling ofwell being. And just seeing this
total asshole vomiting all overhis wife, and I just
(30:22):
spontaneously burst into tears.
Because it really reminded mewhat you were saying, like my
wife might laugh in thatsituation. But in the sense that
might happen. For me, it wasjust like, I just suddenly just
saw how ridiculous it was. And Iactually, I think what came up
to me was just this sort ofoverwhelming sense of sadness.
(30:43):
But here's a woman that I reallylove. And I'm just behaving like
a total deck based on thisreally crazy narrative that I've
built up, which I can't evenremember why, yeah, it was not
so as possibly possible.
Rohini Ross (31:10):
Well, that was one of the defining moments in our
relationship were in the heat ofthe moment, all of a sudden, you
connected with your ownconscience, and everything
shifted. And I had no idea whatwas going on, for you. But I
think that that's what happenswhen we spend more time
(31:33):
experiencing our true nature,allowing ourselves to be
rewarded by it, we get into thefeeling of well being, and those
deeper feelings of love andcompassion, and anything that's
not that all of a sudden becomesa whole lot less tolerable to
us. And it's much easier to dropback into that experience of
(31:56):
well being. And look at thatbehavior, like you said, from a
vantage point, like you'reoutside of yourself and realize,
just the ridiculousness of itall.
Angus Ross (32:08):
Yeah, listening to me retell that story, which I
have told 1000 times now. Itnever gets old for me. And it
does, you know, I use that I usethat metaphor of taking the
needle off the record, whichapart from anything else, I
guess, that shows my age,
Rohini Ross (32:27):
Record players are cool now, I guess,
Angus Ross (32:28):
Record plays are cool. So I'm quite a hipster.
Really, that's, it did feel likethat. And I guess it was as if
I'd stumbled into a higher levelof consciousness, and found
myself really looking down onthis crazy person screaming at
their wife. And it just feltcompletely out of sync. With my
(32:52):
essential nature, that's, that'sthe best way to describe it. And
not necessarily big that couldlisten to it at the time. But
that's what's going down. I wastepping into the reality of
who I really am, at my core. Ad that was really not this is nu
case who's got really consumed bsome deep groove habitual t
(33:16):
inking about how I'm supposed treact if and react in these s
tuations, which is kind of lie the deep grooves of my own, my
own record my own disk, if yu like. And so it's very aprop
that that metaphor for pullng the needle off the record, b
cause that's, just not who I amfrom that state. And I guess,
hopefully, it can be defned as a state of higher consci
(33:38):
usness, I can pull that needle of the record.
Rohini Ross (33:43):
And we all can, I think that's what's really
helpful and important foreverybody to see is that we're
not limited by our conditionthinking that we have the
capacity to zoom out, getperspective on it. And the way
that we do that is we connectmore deeply with our impersonal
nature. We allow ourselves todrop out of our personal
(34:04):
thinking and drop into thatdeeper part of ourselves that
has a different vantage point.
Angus Ross (34:10):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Rohini Ross (34:12):
And that's what Matteo is doing here in this
next segment.
Mateo (34:21):
Every time you bring up trying to plan something, it's
like, oh, my God, this guy?
Well, it's because I've, I've,we've probably had one instance
in the past where you asked me aquestion, I knew that you are
anchoring that question withwhat is the state of our
relationship, right? So everytime then you asked me, hey,
let's, let's go do something orwould you like to go here? I'm
(34:42):
like, Oh, my God. She's tryingto figure out what the state of
our relationship is. She'sanchoring these questions to
figure out Hey, is he willing todo this thing with me in the
future, knowing where ourrelationship is right now, when
in actuality he could have justbeen asking Do you want to go to
Italy at some point, right?
Exactly. Yeah, there, thereprobably was a mixture of those
(35:06):
but me approaching and followingthe narrative that every time
you ask me you want to dosomething and thinking directly
into that and falling back intothat tunnel. This is probably
not good at all right? Yeah.
It's like, then there's likethis fear on your end of like, I
hope I can ask him what he wantsfor dinner. I also created this
feeling for you that you had towalk on eggshells. And but it
(35:33):
was mostly in my head that I,you know, I use this one
instance, where like, you use aquestion to anchor, you know,
the state of our well being andour relationship. And I just,
you know, I use that one. Yeah,that one narrative across
everything now. Right. So I'mgetting rid of that. But, yeah,
(35:54):
so I definitely want toapologize for that. Because
that's, you know, something thatI know really weighed heavily on
her, she doesn't go anywhere.
Like, you know, even though mybirthday, she's like, Hey, can
we can I make reservations?
Don't ask me about reservationsright now. Right? It's, it's
(36:15):
like work. So for me now, oneinstance, it was like, Hey, I
don't know, the time I'm gettingoff work. But at the same time,
you know, I still felt thatwhatever anti gave you it was
gonna be an anchoring questionto the state of our
relationship. And so I reallywant to apologize for that, it
did create a lot of shit in ourrelationship that creates the
(36:37):
shit show. Yeah. And that's thebig, big part, my fault for
sure.
Angus Ross (36:48):
So for the benefit of the listener, I think it
would be worthwhile to maybetake a look at what he means by
these anchoring questions.
Because I remember beingconfused by this at the time. So
my understanding is that theseanchoring questions visa v. I
don't know, let's use theexample of like, what are we
(37:08):
going to do for dinner tonight?
Or what are we going to do onyour birthday? Somehow suggest
that she is looking for adescriptor of their relationship
in respect to whatever answerhe's going to give? I don't
know. I'd love to get yourfeedback on that. Because I feel
like I want a little bit moreclarification.
Rohini Ross (37:30):
Well, what I think he's saying is that at least you
would ask him these questions asa fishing expedition to see if
he was going to be with her onhis birthday. And so if she
asked him, would you like to goto Italy? It was a fishing
expedition to see if he wasgoing to say yes, because then
that would mean he would staywith her and go to Italy
(37:52):
together.
Angus Ross (37:53):
Right? Well, he should have said fishing.
shouldn't be talking aboutdropping anchor.
Rohini Ross (37:59):
I think he felt anchored by questions.
Angus Ross (38:03):
Oh, well, I would like I think he should have
maybe it should be more of aball and chain put round is.
Rohini Ross (38:07):
Yes, I think that's right.
Angus Ross (38:10):
So I was confused by that metaphor, anyway. Well,
thank you.
Rohini Ross (38:15):
I'm glad you cleared that up. Is there
anything else?
Angus Ross (38:18):
I think we can move on from there.
Rohini Ross (38:19):
Well, I do want to comment on the fact that he
connected with his conscience.
And he actually felt empathy forAlicia and recognize that
because of how he was behaving,that she felt like she had to
walk on eggshells around him,because she didn't know what she
could ask him what was okay,what wasn't okay. So for me,
(38:40):
that was really significant thathe had opened up in that way to
have empathy for her.
Angus Ross (38:47):
Yeah. And it was a very touching moment. And it
also, I realized that in one ofour sessions, he actually asked
me if he should apologize. And Ididn't want to find myself in a
situation where I was leadingthe witness, I felt like this is
something that needs to show uporganically. So I remember
prompting him to just to befollowed by his wisdom. And if
(39:08):
that feels appropriate, thenabsolutely. But I certainly
didn't encourage him to do that.
So it did. It did show uporganically. And it showed up in
a really beautiful way. So itwas it was really wonderful to
witness that.
Rohini Ross (39:21):
Yeah, it was.
Mateo (39:32):
I mean, the thing that's sort of our problems, right,
yeah. We're creating thisnarrative, maybe a piece of it
is from truth. But we're nowelongating the story to consumer
ourselves. Yeah.
Angus Ross (39:45):
Yeah. And then the issue is, along with that
narrative becomes the comesalong or physiology becomes the
feeling. Yeah, actually, youknow, lead to health issues and
all kinds of problems.
Mateo (39:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
Angus Ross (39:56):
Yeah, things that are detrimental to our well
being.
Rohini Ross (39:59):
Yeah, so being able to see kind of the universal
nature of what we're talkingabout helps with everything
helps with anxiety, we talkedabout anxiety helps with anxiety
helps with depression helps withcommunication, like there's not
one area of life where, where wedon't feel our thinking. So of
course, this understanding isgoing to be applicable across
the board. I hear both saying,like, we got to go live our life
(40:21):
now and see how this lands andsee what sticks. And the follow
up sessions are really there tohelp you integrate what you've
seen. And make sure that it'slanding and sticking in day to
day life. If you're struggling,or you know, if you're having a
hard time you have our email. Sojust reach out, don't wait, if
you're having if something goeswrong. And you're like, Well,
(40:43):
that was a waste of time, likereach out before because it's
usually just a little coursecorrection. That's even I'm not
saying that's going to happen.
But I don't want you to feel it.
Oh, let's wait and save that fortwo weeks.
Mateo (40:54):
Really weird. I don't even think of that could even
happen.
Rohini Ross (40:58):
Yeah, that's great.
I love that.
Angus Ross (40:59):
Oh, my goodness me what a far cry from that very
first session where they werecompletely polarized. He's now
saying, I can't imagine therebeing any kind of imagine there
being any problems from here onout or words to that effect.
(41:22):
That's extraordinary. Andobviously, we've done our best
to caution in that respects. Butthat's not particularly likely.
But how beautiful that thatthere has been this 180 and
that, you know, I mean, thedivorce papers were drawn up,
and look where we are now. I'msure in his wildest dreams, he
(41:46):
couldn't imagine himself beingin this place in this mindset,
this point.
Rohini Ross (41:51):
Yeah, there's a really beautiful space that
they've dropped into. And wetalk about that a little bit
more in this next section.
Angus Ross (41:56):
Yeah. They took the needle off the record.
I'm struck by that seems likeyeah, you guys now. I think
that's that's the sweet spot.
You know, once we recognize thatgood feeling, and we live our
lives from that placeeverything. Yeah, just looks so
(42:17):
much better.
Mateo (42:20):
Yeah, I mean, there's a reason why we got together and
why we've stuck with each other,even through all the turbulence.
You know, we've been wantingthat taste of that, like, Oh, my
God, you know, like, this is theperson there's glimpses of that,
but I think this way we canactually, this can be the norm,
(42:40):
right? Not those glimpses at thenorm. Exactly. Bullshit can
become this. Who cares, right?
Yeah, that's sweet.
Rohini Ross (42:50):
Yeah, I love that.
It's a flip. It's like thisbecomes a norm. And yeah,
there's a little bit ofbullshit. That's part of being
human. We're all human. We'renot perfect. And it's like, man,
I can roll with that.
Mateo (43:00):
Yeah.
Alicia (43:01):
I mean, I know, I'm super like, excited now. And I
feel like I told you last night,like, I feel like we've been
given such a blessing. Like, Ifeel like everybody should go
through this process, whetherthey have an issue or not,
because not only do you get asounder, like feeling of
yourself and knowing yourself,but then how to even deal with
everybody in your life, and thenhow to just make your household
(43:23):
alone, just its happy pot, andknow that there's going to be
issues at times, but doesn'thave to be that and you can just
be excited and be newlyweds forforever. In a sense.
Mateo (43:32):
Yeah, there's gonna be issues, but you don't they
create a long life narrativearound that one issue. And yeah,
it's it does, you don't have tobe in a relationship to go
through it. It is, it sounds soeasy, something you should teach
in school.
Angus Ross (43:53):
There is people doing that
Mateo (43:54):
There's a lot of mental health that can probably be
corrected or even avoided bythis, this type of approach to
life. And it's just thought,whoa, what if I learned this 15
years ago? Like what would lifebe like? Like, whoa, I'm
(44:16):
imagining, like, that's 15 yearsold, he gets to go through this
and goes to college without thisnegative narrative that he's
building up in his mind. Imaginelike, what could be achieved?
It's just like, Whoa, what am I?
What happened?
Angus Ross (44:31):
You used the word innocence. But I think that,
that's kind of key in a sense isif you actually think about
kids, young kids, they havetheir moments of imbalance and
they get all upset and then liketwo seconds later, they're way
back back in. Anythingseriously, somehow that kind of
(44:52):
gets programmed differently aswe go through all the lessons or
whatever
Alicia (44:58):
I think are so conditioned to things like we
discuss like you're conditionedto think negatively, sometimes
you're conditioned to think thatthings are going wrong when
they're actually not.
Angus Ross (45:11):
Well, I guess what's really wonderful here is that is
how they're excited to see howwhat they've learned in this
experience is going to bebeneficial to them in all other
areas of their lives.
Rohini Ross (45:26):
Yeah, it's really powerful when people can
generalize and start putting thedots together for themselves.
That's one of the signs that Ilook forward to see if they're
integrating what's being sharedthat they're now making
references to see how it willhelp in all relationships, not
just their relationship. I thinkthat's what we've been pointing
(45:47):
to throughout this wholepodcast, not just to them, but
to everyone who's listening isthat there is that space within
have wisdom, of intuition ofknowing that we all have
accessible and available to us.
But what happens is we getcaught up in our personal
thinking and in the stories thatwe've created, and the condition
limited thoughts of our mind,and we forget to listen to that
(46:11):
deeper place within ourselves.
And that's what we're pointingto in terms of the rewilding to
allow ourselves to listendeeply. And to let that flourish
within us.
Angus Ross (46:22):
Yeah, I mean, maybe it is the greatest, greatest
validation that this is allworking as they start to see it
in those terms in a veryuniversal way.
Rohini Ross (46:32):
Absolutely.
We're gonna take segments andput it together in a podcast
format, so that more people canlearn this understanding and so
that less people suffer. Soreally very grateful you're
willing to participate,.
Mateo (46:50):
We are more grateful to you guys than you. I can measure
that.
Rohini Ross (46:58):
Know, thank you.
Because this, you know, like,you're saying, we want to make a
difference in the world. Andthis is one of the ways that we
can, we can't work with that wecan only work with a certain
number of people, but this ishow we can impact more lives.
And in a way that's free.
Alicia (47:14):
Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I said from the
start is if it can help otherpeople, not go through what we
went through or how correct itlike, I'm so willing to do so
because I feel like everybodygoes through marital issues,
everybody goes throughrelationship issues. And so it's
so important to kind of coursecorrect and realize, like where
you are going wrong, and I thinkif this can help, even one
(47:37):
person, I think it's done itsjob tenfold.
Mateo (47:41):
I think it will, and I don't think person needs to be
in relationships or anything.
It's just, it's our innatewithin us to protect ourselves,
which is create stories ofknowing how to handle the
mugger, right, walking behindyou, all these different things
and and that does affectpeople's lives. And just being
able to release, you know, anypreconceived notions or, you
(48:01):
know, play out that you'vecreated in your mind, I think is
just very blissful, freeing,liberating. Yeah, there we go.
Angus Ross (48:20):
It would be easy to think that we have reached that
Hollywood ending, or thesentimental ending that I always
wanted. But we're not done yet.
Maybe it's more of a more of aminiseries rather than a movie
where everything is very tightlywrapped up at the end, because
we haven't gotten to that pointyet. But nevertheless, I don't
(48:43):
really want to finish herewithout saying how incredible it
is, in terms of where they havecome to, and what they've seen,
and all that they have learned.
And this beautiful feeling thatthey've really found themselves
in a very short period of time,when you consider that that
(49:05):
feeling has not been part of theequation, probably for many
months, borne out by the factthat divorce papers were drawn
up. And there was really littleroom for recovery as far as they
could see it as far as Mateocould see it anyway. Where they
are now is just it'sflabbergasting. I haven't used
(49:26):
that word for probably I don'tknow. I don't know if I've ever
used that word. But I'm using itnow. I am flabbergasted.
Rohini Ross (49:34):
Well, I too want to acknowledge them because where
they got to really demonstratestheir willingness, their clarity
of intention, their openmindedness, their open
heartedness, they really showedup authentically, honestly, and
we're open to having a shift andit was really beautifully
(49:57):
demonstrated and what they share
Angus Ross (50:01):
Yeah, and I guess now it's kind of like as we see
it, they are baby rewilders, andwe have put on their baby
harness that going out into thebig wide world. And we're gonna
be there to reel them in fromtime to time, because
inevitably, they are going tohave challenges. And I think
it's easy to sort of get caughtup in the moment and see that
(50:24):
there's no possibility of theregoing to be another challenge in
science. But I would say watchthis space, and we're here to
hold their hand as it were.
Rohini Ross (50:34):
Or what I would say is that the work that we did an
intensive, I think, opened up alevel of honesty and truth. And
in that space, whatever needs tobe healed and resolved is going
to show up. And so as much asthey ended on a high note, they
also created a space for truthto come in. And there were still
(50:56):
things that were unresolved atthis point that we hadn't
addressed.
Angus Ross (50:58):
Yeah. And that truth isn't always going to be that
friendly, or that comfortable.
And so yeah, there's still workto be done here.
Rohini Ross (51:08):
Yeah, growth in consciousness isn't always
comfortable. It usually rarelyis.
Angus Ross (51:12):
That's true. And you know, and as I see it, growth in
consciousness really comes it'slike resistance training, we're
not going to really learn unlesswe come up against challenge. So
I think it would be foolish orfolly to think that, you know,
we're going to go through therest of our lives without
challenge and not come upagainst resistance. Absolutely.
(51:32):
And that's our growing edge.
Rohini Ross (51:34):
So to be continued more to come. And also, Angus
and I are going to be doing someask us anything, podcast
episodes. And so we invite youto send us your questions about
the podcast, about relationshipsin general, or anything else
that you'd like to know. And youcan send them in to us via
(51:55):
email, at info@therewilders.org.
Or if you'd like to send in yourquestion anonymously, we have a
voicemail that you can leaveyour questions on and I'm just
going to look that out rightnow.
Angus Ross (52:12):
And I would encourage you if you have any
really difficult questions toaddress them to Rohini
Rohini Ross (52:21):
The voicemail number is 424-272-6497. That's
424-272-6497. And if you leaveit on the voicemail, we could
also include your voice in thepodcast, so that would be kind
of nice. So we'd love to hearfrom you. We'd love to know more
(52:42):
about what you're getting out ofthe series, but we definitely
want to make sure that we'reanswering any questions that you
have.
Angus Ross (52:51):
That's wonderful, not much more to be said at this
point.
Rohini Ross (52:53):
All right. Until the next time
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