February 1, 2021 • 52 mins
The Rewilders meet separately with Alicia and Mateo for follow up sessions after they've returned home from the intensive. At first, things sound resoundingly positive on both ends. Mateo has found massive success getting through to his team at work by incorporating what he learned about state of mind and presence. And Alicia is successful with not being reactive especially before holding important conversations with Mateo.
One might assume Mateo has been benefitting from Alicia's calmer state at home, but he reveals to Angus that in actuality he's experiencing fairly severe and chronic anxiety, especially at home. He may appear "cool as a cucumber on the outside" but he's "hotter than a tamale on the inside." This has major implications for their relationship.
Angus shares one of his sure-fire barometers for his own level of anxiety; the degree to which he can handle Rohini's finger chewing (in other words, Rohini's anxiety). In the past, Angus wasn't able to bear Rohini's anxiety at all because he couldn't bear his own. But since taking his thinking less seriously and cultivating more presence in their relationship, he's typically able to handle Rohini's finger-chewing quite well, except for the times he isn't, which he now knows to be a reflection of his own state of mind rather than something lacking in Rohini.
This episode explores:
- Our innate resilience when in touch with our true nature
- New, experiential reference points created during intensives
- The power of being genuinely present with another human being
- The impact of anxiety on relationships
Show Notes
Befuddlement: Angus's perplexed feeling wondering how to ask people to stay tuned.
A turn-up, not turnip: A surprise
Projection 101: The first course on the act of projecting / the cause of Angus's judgment of Rohini's finger-chewing
Listen to this space: Another way of saying, tune in next week for Episode 14, when more on Alicia and Mateo's relationship developments will be revealed.
Podcast music
Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area. Episode 13 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity.
Feedback: info@therewilders.org
To leave questions and comments for Ask Anything Episodes Call: (424) 272-6497
Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Angus Ross (00:03):
Welcome to rewilding love. This season is with a
couple on the brink of divorce.
Rohini Ross (00:10):
This is Episode 13.
Relationship on the rocks.
Alicia (00:16):
The conversation ended with us laughing and giggling
Angus Ross (00:19):
Oh, my goodness me seem quite the roller coaster
ride.
Rohini Ross (00:23):
What am I hearing is that you're not taking things
personally. If he gets snappy,you're able to see Well, that's
his state of mind in the moment,
Angus Ross (00:31):
it would appear. The sheen of wisdom has not worn off
yet, from their experiencesintensive.
Alicia (00:38):
It's been very peaceful, very calm.
Rohini Ross (00:41):
That's what happens when we spend more time
experiencing our true nature,allowing herself to be rewarded
by we get into the feeling ofwell being. And those deeper
feelings of love and compassion,and anything that's not that all
of a sudden becomes a whole lotless tolerable to us.
Mateo (01:00):
Honest thing is like no, she's a pain in the ass. Much
better at like dealing with it.
Angus Ross (01:07):
Someone's got themselves into a low mood. He's
hit the cliff face and he'stumbling
Mateo (01:14):
Until the cucumber on the outside inside on his How does
it tamale?
Angus Ross (01:18):
I'm experiencing certain other befuddlement
around this idea of listening tospace. You are listening to
rewilding love with me, AngusRoss,
Rohini Ross (01:29):
and me Rohini Ross
Angus Ross (01:31):
Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.
Rohini Ross (01:35):
We believe that love never disappears completely
in relationships. It can alwaysbe rewilded, listen in as we
guide a real couple back totheir natural state of love,
Angus Ross (01:46):
Relax, and enjoy the show.
Rohini Ross (01:56):
We're excited to let you know that we're going to
be doing some ask anythingpodcast episodes. And so we'd
love to hear from you. If youhave any questions about the
podcast about relationships ingeneral, or any other questions
that you'd like us to answer.
We'd love for you to send themin. And so you can send them in
via email to info at therewilders.org info at the
(02:17):
rewilding.org. Or if you'd liketo send in your question
anonymously. You can call yourquestion 424-272-6497.
Angus Ross (02:39):
Okay, well, that's, that's another intensive in the
bag. I wanted to help her getalong in the big wide world,
Rohini Ross (02:47):
we now have to fledgling rewilded out there.
Angus Ross (02:50):
We do
Rohini Ross (02:52):
I think it's important to talk about the
intensive experience just togive it some context in terms of
where they're at in theirjourney. And so the reason why
we have intensives in a retreatsetting is because we recognize
that when people get out oftheir day to day lives, and
don't have those pressures onthem, they tend to relax, their
(03:15):
minds tend to settle quitequickly. And in that space, it's
just natural that the feelingsof well being and joy naturally
come to the surface and are feltmore clearly.
Angus Ross (03:29):
Yeah, there's a method to our madness, for sure.
I have heard it said, andvarious trainings that we've
done, and certainly in couplesworkshops, or intensives, where
people will get up and share acouple get up and share. And
they will lament the fact thatthey wish that their
(03:50):
relationship could be how it iswhen they're on vacation. And
they're on holiday, because theyget on like a house on fire
under those circumstances andthose conditions, which is more
grist for the mill, as far aswe're concerned, because that
just demonstrates that it's allabout state of mind. So when
they're in a relaxed, unsettledstate of mind, they do get on
like a house on fire. And theyhave perspective. And when they
(04:13):
get out there into the big wideworld and get sped up and, and
unsettled as the case may be, asfar as their state of mind is
concerned, then they lose thatperspective. So we are actually
doing everything in our power tocreate a setting where all of
that analytical machinery hasplenty of room to slow down. And
(04:36):
we try and engineer a settlestate. And that's where we have
the leverage that we're lookingfor, to get that couple to a
place of how would I articulatethis because I want to also be
cognizant of the fact that wewant to not have an agenda but
in terms of helping that clientor the client see what they need
to see. It's much better thatthey be in a settled state of
(04:56):
mind. So we're doing everythingthat we can to create that state
Rohini Ross (05:00):
Yeah, I don't know that I would use the word
engineer because that sounds alot, I know
Angus Ross (05:04):
you're gonna pick me up on that I tried to reel it
back in late, you wouldn't letme
Rohini Ross (05:11):
I heard it. It didn't slip by me
Angus Ross (05:17):
Fell off that cliff ever so swiftly.
Rohini Ross (05:21):
Rather than engineering, we we set up a
context that allows the naturalstate to come forward. How's
that?
Angus Ross (05:28):
Yeah, that'll do for me, okay, what she said.
Rohini Ross (05:33):
And so, it's amazing how quickly shifts can
happen. In the couples work thatwe do in an intensive setting
and the individual intensivesthat we each do, it's really
wonderful to see how flexiblethe mind is and how flexible we
are that we can drop out of ourthinking and come back to our
(05:56):
natural state so easily. And asyou've heard through listening,
Matteo and Alicia are in anincredible space. At this point
in time, Matteo can even imaginegetting into the conflicts that
they were having, as he wasleaving the intensive.
Angus Ross (06:13):
Yeah, dare I say he might be guilty of getting a
little bit cocky about what thefuture holds in store for him.
Rohini Ross (06:21):
And we're not gonna pop their bubble, because we
don't know it could be a reallysmooth sailing ride. And
sometimes it is, but often,after intensives why we have the
follow up sessions is werecognize that it can be a bumpy
reentry at times.
Angus Ross (06:39):
Yes, it can be a bumpy reentry at times. And I
know that we want to do our bestto send our couples off in a
good feeling. But I think it isimportant to be aware of the
fact that there may be a fewhiccups, bumps in the road. And
I do think that he was a littlebit he was guilty of being a
(07:00):
little bit cocky, a bit full ofhimself as far as that's
concerned. And I was thinking aswe as I was listening to you use
this phrase, it was a bumpy,bumpy road or bumps along the
way. I thought of a goodmetaphor here. And I don't know
if you remember seeing thatdocumentary. It was a David
(07:21):
Attenborough documentary. And Ithink the name of the bird, I
think it was called a barnaclegoose. And they nest somewhere
up in the Arctic Circle. Andthey choose to nest on the side
of this cliff face. And I thinkit's about four and 400 feet up
in the air. And that when theGosling's as it were, they are
(07:41):
called Gosling's baby geese.
When they decide to spread theirwings and fly, I think it would
appear that that decision issomewhat premature, because
their wings to say the leastlook pretty embryonic in their
nature. And judging on the sizeof their their body, the wings
look pretty tiny. Nevertheless,they jump out the nest at 400
feet in the air. And they beginthis process of you couldn't
(08:04):
really call it gliding, you haveto stay is basically falling.
And for the first 300 feet,they're doing pretty well
remaining a fairly sort ofstable descent until there is of
course until they hit the sideof the cliff. At which point
they start tumbling down andbumping down. And you know,
(08:24):
eventually they reach the bottomand the music is so sinister
that you think that they've mademet an untimely end. And then
there's this horrible pregnantpause where where I guess the
parents come to see how the hellI guess to witness to see the
dead body of their dearlydeparted offspring. And lo and
behold, the chick comes to lifeand just sort of like, you know,
(08:48):
shakes itself down. At whichpoint you suddenly hear the very
dulcet tones of DavidAttenborough's voice in a
grossly underestimatedassessment. In terms of the
gravitas of the situation. Youhear him say, the chick,
somewhat dazed and confused,springs back to life, which is
(09:13):
really, to be honest. You'vejust, I don't know how any
creature could tumble down inthat way and somehow live to
tell the tale. Anyway, this is avery long, verbose way of making
a point around alyssia Mateosexperience where Yeah, I guess
Matteo can be forgive beforgiven for his overconfidence.
(09:36):
And I guess for me, they got theGosling's initial leap out of
the nest, somewhat reminiscentof Mateos overconfidence in that
situation, but I do feel likepart of the journey and doing
these intensives is we hopefullyallow our clients to experience
their innate resilience so Thatoverconfidence was Mateo like
(10:00):
that chick leaping out of thenest with him tapping into his
innate resilience, he wasperhaps not thinking about the
possible bump on the way. And ina sense, I hope he doesn't meet
any of those kind of bumps to,to the extent that that poor
chick did. But nevertheless,that's a possibility. But I do
feel like that confidence thathe's experiencing, and I think
(10:23):
for for Alicia, too, that isvery much a part of the journey,
that when they do settle, whenthey do come back into the
innate, well, you know, intothat state of innate well being,
then that sense of resilienceand self confidence for, for
what the future holds in storeemerges. And it's a beautiful
(10:44):
thing.
Rohini Ross (10:47):
Yeah, hopefully, the intensive experience has
given them a reference point. Soeven if things do get difficult
if they get stirred up, if theydemonstrate some of the old
behaviors, they have a referencepoint that's known to them, it's
experiential. And they willremember that it's possible to
get back to the space thatthey're in, currently. And when
(11:10):
they have hope for that, andwhen they know it's possible,
they're much more likely to findways to look in that direction,
that will allow themselves toget back there. Yeah,
Angus Ross (11:20):
I use that term reference point all the time to
get a good reference point, sothat you'll have something to,
to look to when things arestarting to get out of hand. So
in a sense, a retreat, orintensives, the intensives that
we provide, are really one bigglorious reference point in
(11:44):
terms of how we guide them backto their essential nature, we
guide them back to their wisdom,we guide them back to their
innate resilience. And then inhaving that experience, that's
something that they can draw onwhen when life starts to look a
little bit difficult, or theirstate of mind has gone south.
Hopefully, they will rememberwell hang on a minute. On the
(12:07):
intensive, much in the same way,all those people would say,
yeah, we're on holiday. We geton like our some fire. They say
themselves look, when we're,when we're doing that intensive,
we suddenly found ourselveslooking through new new optics
and life looked entirelydifferent. And so that reference
(12:29):
point is going to be invaluablemoving forward. And they will
forget it, they will forgetabout it from time to time, as
do we all but the growth forthem as it is for us all is how
quickly we bounced back andremember what exactly is going
on. And it's just really down toa state of mind. And that's just
(12:49):
informing our reactivity, ourbehavior, our response is always
going to be a reflection of ourstate of mind. So having that
reference point is going to besomething that's going to be
really useful for them movingforward.
Rohini Ross (13:05):
And I want to point out that we all have our
reference points, that thisisn't just about Alicea
material, that this is somethingthat's universal, that every
single one of us has a referencepoint for what peace of mind
feels like, every single one ofus has a reference point for
knowing what we're like whenwe're not in a reactive state.
(13:26):
Everyone knows what it's likewhen they're in a good feeling
versus when they're all stirredup and reactive. And so when we
recognize that that's areflection of our mood
fluctuating, and not about ourcircumstances, we can really
look in the direction of how totake care of ourselves, so that
(13:48):
we can let our state of mindsettle. And then we come back
naturally to that place of wellbeing inside. And that is such a
game changer for life ingeneral. But for relationships,
especially. Because when we knowthat when the relationship feels
difficult, but that's areflection of our state of mind.
It's going to stop us frombehaving in ways toward our
(14:11):
partner or toward other peoplein our life that actually make
things a lot harder to getalong.
Angus Ross (14:18):
Yeah, as you're talking, it makes me wonder
about all those occasions wherewe get asked about how do we how
do we find our way back to thatsettled state of mind? And I
guess I'm guilty, as much as thenext person of trying to figure
out well, how do I do that? AndI think that why the reference
(14:39):
point idea is so valuable, isit's it's not about there being
a technique to it. It's aboutthere being a state of awareness
of realizing that this is justmy state of mind, and that's why
I'm suffering in this situation.
I'm putting thoughts on thisstate of mind and I'm getting on
board that train of thought andit's not really taking me
anywhere. But I really want togo at this point in time,
(15:01):
however compelling it may be.
But just to have that awarenessand have that reference point
means that I'm really what I'mreally ultimately doing is
finding a way to be present inthis current situation with
whatever's going on, and nottaking it personally. And so
it's taking on the role of anobserver, rather than a role of
(15:24):
the character. In that virtualreality that unfolds in that
state of mind, I kind of removedmyself from the thinking of that
state of mind through awareness.
And I think that that'ssomething to expand into a
wonderful to have a referencepoint and realize, yeah, this is
something that I can look at andexplore here. When I feel like
I'm, I'm struggling.
Rohini Ross (15:45):
So for everybody, just knowing the difference
between being in a good state ofmind versus not being good state
of mind. That's really thesimplicity of this. When we know
the difference, we know how toact accordingly. And life gets a
whole lot easier. Sure does. Andso we're going to hear from
Alicia next, and she is veryoptimistic about how things are
(16:08):
going and feels very hopeful. Solet's hear what she has to say.
What I'm hearing is that you'renot taking things personally, if
he gets snappy, you're kind ofable to see well that's that's
his state of mind in the moment.
You don't have to sort of reactto that. So does that mean that
(16:31):
because I remember you sayingthat things would escalate
before does that mean thingsaren't escalating now? Nothing
is escalated? Oh, that's great.
Well, that's, that'ssignificant, then that's really
Alicia (16:43):
Yeah, not one like argument. Not really like a
disagreement, like agree todisagree moment, it's more so
like, it's been very peacefuland very calm and very, like, he
went, what the weekend after ourtherapy session, he had gone
with his buddy for the day to gosnowboarding. And he was very
communicative with me andchecking in. And then I just,
(17:04):
like, let him do his thing. Andso we've like, had our moments
like, separated and had ittogether. And like I said,
nothing's really like triggeredeither of us. Oh, no, I'm sorry,
triggered me. Right. Um, butthings that I've like really
looked at have been, like himbeing more affectionate and like
wanting to help and offset any,like, household chores.
Angus Ross (17:26):
So she seems to be in a good place. It would appear
to the sheen of wisdom has notworn off yet from their
experience at the intensive. Oh,it's that sounds very hopeful.
Rohini Ross (17:43):
Yeah, I was really pleased to hear that the
volatility had shifted, and thathad sustained itself. So that to
me was significant for both ofthem.
Angus Ross (17:54):
Yeah, no, that's, that's wonderful. Long may it
last.
Rohini Ross (17:58):
And next, we'll hear from Mateo and he actually,
is really excited about how theimpact of the understanding is
helping him at work.
Mateo (18:12):
So it was really funny though, like, I took what we
learned, moving aside from myrelationship, I took what we
learned and I, you know, metwith my sales team and just like
trying to get like, their, theirpulse, like, you know, what,
what things are you guys dealingwith, you know, and, and all
this stuff. And, you know, Ijust saw that they were like,
(18:34):
paralysis by analysis typestuff. And yeah, Hawk, they
would already know how theconversation was going and, and
all that stuff. And they feltthat they could talk to anyone
and everyone had the same painpoints and stuff like that. And
I just totally told them to getrid of any preconceived ideas
(18:58):
that you have. I don't want youto do anything other than ask
questions on a phone call reallyget to know people not just
qualify them but understandtheir pain points. I don't care
how you sell but the first threeto five minutes of your
conversation should really befocused about the other person
(19:21):
on the phone. And the reason youdo that is to first get to know
them build some rapport, butalso to get rid of this story
that you already have in yourhead and you know, be able to
approach you know, sell with aclean slate not think that every
sale is exactly you know, acookie Yeah, and buck man these
(19:43):
kids have been closing accountsright nice. That's awesome.
Okay, this is where it reallygets crazy. So one of my sales
kids he's like 24 years old.
It's got a lot of good potentialbut he is one of these really
quick to respond, right? doesn'tfully think it out just like
qwikster respond. Again, I don'tknow why. But ever since we had
(20:05):
that conversation, he pauses, hepauses, and he thinks about what
he's about to say. And heprocesses everything. So really
smart kid processes. And he'slike, okay, but it used to be
very combative. Like, oh, yeah,but this is how we used to do
that where I was before, rightnow. He's like, digesting it and
(20:26):
being like, Okay. What do youthink about this, right? Like,
but see, he's fucking thinkingfor this fucking guy. So I'm
very thankful I'm applying thisin my work. And that's great.
Yeah, really cool.
Rohini Ross (20:50):
It's interesting when people are impacted by what
we share, it doesn't necessarilytouch the issue that they're
wanting it to touch right away,it often will go to other areas
of life where it's more easilyintegrated and understood. And
that's what I hear here withMatteo, I hear that he sees this
(21:13):
very clearly at work. Herecognizes now, the value of
presence, the value of listeningdeeply the value of connecting
human to human, and having thatreflective state of mind where
you can listen to the deeperknowing or common sense and have
that be what is the compasspoint for work. And so I think
(21:38):
it's really a beautifuldescription that he gives as to
how he's been impacted and howhe's now sharing this with his
team.
Angus Ross (21:46):
Yeah, and how excited he is about how he's
seeing the fruits of sharingthis understanding, really
starting to ripen proliferate.
And I think, yeah, you'reabsolutely right. And we see
this all the time, and we havethe luxury of perhaps, you know,
we do relationship work. Andthat's something that we're
particularly fun to doing. Butwe have also done quite a bit of
(22:07):
corporate work as well. Andwe've also, we've also had
situations where people in thecorporate field are seeing how
this has really helped them athome, in their relationship,
because we're taught,ultimately, we're talking about
relationship, right across thefield. So this understanding is
very universal at this level.
(22:29):
And so all of those qualitiesare very apropos in a corporate
setting just as much as they areat home with one's significant
other.
Rohini Ross (22:38):
Well, there's no area of life that isn't impacted
by our state of mind. And byhaving an understanding of how
to navigate the human experienceof having moods that go up and
down. Having a mind that is moreexpensive, at times more close
to others, when we know how tonavigate that more gracefully.
It makes all areas of life moreeasy.
Angus Ross (22:59):
Yeah, I really, at the end of the day, how to be
genuinely present with anotherhuman being to really relate to
someone at that level. That'swhat he's seeing in his in his
workforce. And and that's what'sbeen helping his marriage to.
Rohini Ross (23:15):
Absolutely. Well, we'll hear from Alicia now. And
she's even saying that they'renavigating the bumps fairly well
to
Alicia (23:31):
Actually really funny, we did have one conversation,
where I scaled back from it,because I saw it was going to a,
like a bad kind of session. Itwas about finances. And he had
called me and he was definitelyin a low mood about it. And he
was just like, upset about likepaying some bills or whatever.
(23:51):
And he always wanted to playlike the blame game on me. And I
just I remember, like beinglike, you know what, I really do
want to talk to you about this,but I'm not really in the state
of mind to be able toeffectively like chat with you
about it. I was like, I'm justand I'm totally fine. I like
kind of like I was like, I'mjust in a little bit of a bad
mood from work. So like, I don'twant it to transpire to this,
because I could already tell hewas getting like dance. And I
(24:14):
was like, but I do want to sitdown and let's map everything
out. And we'll do it togetherand this and that. I was like,
but I really don't think it'stime for a conversation right
now. And he kept like trying andtrying and I was like, I'm gonna
have to let you go. Like, I justI can't have that conversation.
Now. I just don't want it to gothere. I was like, um, you know,
I just have to get through someother stuff. And the
conversation ended with uslaughing and giggling on the
(24:36):
other end and never really likelooking at the stuff later on.
But I think it's just because hewas angry that one of his bills
is probably more than what hehad thought it would be for the
month. Right? Right. Right.
Rohini Ross (24:45):
So he was kind of upset about that. Not anything
really to do with you.
Angus Ross (24:51):
Well, yeah, that's fantastic, isn't it? She's,
she's very much the the modelstudent of this understanding
now and she was able to not takethe ait is obviously a
significant test in thatrespect. And I love the fact
that it ended up with themlaughing about, you know,
whatever they were laughingabout, they were able to get to
(25:11):
that place and not take thatsituation personally or
seriously. And, and yet, here isprovided another wonderful
reference point to move forwardand realize, yeah, these are not
the times to perhaps have aconversation when our state of
mind has gone south, even whenour partner is doing everything
in their power to pull us policyin and do exactly that. So good
(25:34):
for her.
Rohini Ross (25:35):
Yeah, good for her.
And for me, this is one of thekey pieces for people to really
hear, in terms of having morerelationship happiness, if we
could all get better. And I'llinclude myself in the we, if we
could all get better at nottrying to work things out when
we're in a low mood, and havethe patience to wait and revisit
(25:58):
when we're in a better state ofmind. So much suffering would be
diminished.
Angus Ross (26:07):
And it's so hard to do, isn't it because it can feel
so compelling Is it is it istrying to sort of get to a place
of neutrality, so that aredisengaged, and the cogs and
gears or analytical machinery,which is desperate to find some
quick solution to what lookslike an enormous problem. And
yet, it's in that space ofneutrality. Where we find we
(26:30):
recapture perspective, and morethan likely, easily find a
solution?
Rohini Ross (26:37):
Well, I think what happens is when we're in
emotional suffering, ourinstinctual brain tells us to
get rid of the suffering asquickly as possible. So that's
why we feel compelled to try andwork it out. But if we can
understand that the feelingswill just come and go, they
don't do anything to us, theydon't harm us in any way. And if
(26:59):
we can get better at having anopen space within ourselves to
just allow feelings to movethrough us, then we're not going
to react to them. We're notgoing to react from them. And
they pass so much more quickly.
Angus Ross (27:13):
Yeah, I think again, doesn't it boil back down to
presence, the presence tounderstand that there is this,
this this intense pull towardsthe analytical mind that wants
to think things through andachieve a result as quickly as
possible on that end? And itdoes feel counterintuitive to
(27:36):
sort of look towards space andneutrality. And yet, that's
where all the goodies are.
That's where we will hopefullyhave a hunch or or piece of
intuition and instinct that willwill offer us a new way to
approach what looks like animpossible situation.
Rohini Ross (27:54):
Yeah. And Alicia is doing really well with that.
Yes, yes. Mateo, on the otherhand, might have finished his
soaring piece of comingdown.Let's hear what he has to
say.
Mateo (28:15):
Can I put it it's a lot less weight in the relationship,
but uh, I mean, there's stillshit that pisses me off.
Honestly, I guess like, no,she's a pain in the ass. Much
better at like dealing with it.
But that's where I'm at rightnow is, you know, I could deal
(28:36):
with it before. Now I deal withit, you know, in a different
way, where it's, again, lessweight. But I mean, the
negativity shit still comes intothe household. And I mean, she
tries to spark the conversationsthat way, and I just, just, just
don't talk. I've just likesilent. You know, like, I was
doing the dishes the othernight, and she said something
(28:59):
along the lines because she wasgoing in for a review or
something. And all she wants todo is me tell her like, her
review is gonna go alright. AndI've already done that, like, 10
times, right? I'm like, you'vegot this, like, you know,
you're, you're so valuable toyour team members and your
company. Like, it's all going togo well, well, fuck, it was 10
(29:20):
time and she said it underneathher breath. towards me, she
wanted me to obviously, I justkept doing the dishes. I was
like, I'm going to pretend likeI don't even hear her shit. I'm
just, you know, I'm just washingthe dishes. But that's the
problem is that like, I don'twant to live my life like that.
I want to live my life with notsomeone that I'm going to be
(29:42):
compatible all the time with.
But like 80% that'd be nice toget a good shot. You know?
Angus Ross (29:52):
Someone's got themselves into a low mood. He's
crossed over to the other side,isn't he? He's lost his bearings
he has he's hit the cliff face.
And he's tumbling.
Rohini Ross (30:08):
And he doesn't think he's tumbling
Angus Ross (30:10):
Not at all. No idea.
Yeah. And his feathers, hisfeathers are definitely ruffled.
Rohini Ross (30:20):
They're not quite big enough to carry his body yet
Angus Ross (30:22):
not quite big enough to carry his body. We we let him
jump out the nest way too soon.
Well, yeah, that's why we'rehere, isn't it? That's why we do
the follow up.
Rohini Ross (30:33):
Exactly. That's why there's the tumble. Yeah. But
you speak to him about a lot ofthis and you, you do speak to it
in a lot of different ways. AndI'm not going to share all of
the different ways that youtried to remind him of what was
discussed in the intensive. Butin this next section, all of a
sudden, you understand that he'sdealing with anxiety, and in
(30:57):
quite a significant way.
Angus Ross (31:00):
Okay, I forgot about that. So I'm looking forward to
hearing what I said.
Mateo (31:10):
Yeah, I mean, to the point where it's true, like the
anxiety is real. I do get a onceI get home and I get these chest
pains and even so much so that II initially made an appointment
to go meet with the cardiologistbecause I had three EKGs they
all come back normal, butthere's something there. I don't
know if it's things I don't knowwhat it is, but I really wanted
(31:31):
like nip it in the bud andfigure something out here. But..
Angus Ross (31:36):
So hang on a minute.
I mean, we've got a little youknow, gone a little bit more,
but um, So on one hand, you'resaying you're super chill when
you get home and now you'retelling me you're having chest
pains because of what just seemsprobably anxiety.
Mateo (31:49):
And I am super chill.
Like when I come home a blankslate. And then when she starts
running and bulldozing me I'mstill chill. But in here I'm
like
Angus Ross (32:01):
oh, say you're a stern on the external. This idea
is the appearance of chill, butinside you're not feeling chill.
Mateo (32:08):
Oh, yeah, I'm chilled a cucumber on the outside inside,
um, as hot as a tamale.
Angus Ross (32:17):
Pretty intense.
Well, that's something we got towork on.
Mateo (32:25):
We got it. Yeah. I think I think what you said is being
able to acknowledge when you dostart feeling that way and
letting your partner know like,Hey, I'm starting to fucking get
you know, I'm starting to likepant over here. like a like a
hot dog. Like I can't, you know?
Angus Ross (32:42):
Yeah, no, absolutely. 100% because she
can't How is she gonna if you'relike you, maybe you're just
like, got a great poker face.
And she's like, going off 19 tothe dozen trying to sort of get
some sort of like, some sort ofconnection going which
obviously, she's getting moresped up as time wears on that
connection. She's like, She'slike, it's like someone hanging
(33:03):
on for like this for dear lifetrying to find that, that life
ring to connect with you andyou're like, like, deadpan.
She's got no read on what'sgoing on. So she's just gonna
come at you with all gunsblazing?
Mateo (33:17):
Yeah, it's hard. It's like I'm a lifeguard and she's
like, saved me and she'sdrowning you the same time.
Angus Ross (33:24):
You're kind of like, you're an indifferent like,
lifeguard because on thesurface, you look like oh, yeah,
got this all under control. Butinside you kind of go, oh my
god, she's gonna drown. Andshe's gonna pull me down with
her.
Mateo (33:36):
Yeah, that's one of the other things they made on
plastic.
Angus Ross (33:41):
So so so in a sense, it's kind of like, Yes,
absolutely. 100% then the moreyou let her know that I am
feeling like I don't know howyou articulate and you do it in
a way that's as neutral as youcan be in that situation. But I
am starting to feel anxiousabout this conversation. It's
(34:01):
making me feel anxious thatwould probably quite refreshing
for me to hear. And I wouldimagine she'd be like, Oh, well,
that's, that's interesting. Andit's kind of like, that allows
us to look at ourselves thatallows us like kind of like,
maybe have a look at how she'sshowing up.
Mateo (34:18):
Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean, I brought it up to
her to that, like I made anappointment for a cardiologist
and she was like, Well, hey,like why I'm like, because I
feel like I'm gonna die at thetime so I feel Yeah, like
Angus Ross (34:32):
yeah, maybe you got a hold that all in that takes
its toll.
Mateo (34:36):
No shit, Angus. No.
Angus Ross (34:39):
No. Well, then this is like, this is an important
thing to look at. and holding itall in as you like, like keeping
this like cool facade guy andlike, I've got my shit together.
And that in itself is puttingyou under a lot of pressure.
Mateo (34:52):
Yeah, I'm not doing it to pretend like I got my shit
together. I'm doing it so Idon't just tell someone to shut
the fuck up.
Angus Ross (34:58):
Like That's just another way of like keeping your
shit together.
Mateo (35:02):
Yeah, yes, I guess. But I'm not like trying to do it to
like put off like, Oh, I'm sosuperior and I'm so enlightened,
ya know.
Angus Ross (35:12):
But there's a sort of like, I know that that, you
know, I can see that yourmotives on what in a sense,
there's like there's an elementof dishonesty about it, it's not
really healthy for you to like,in the sense of your physiology
that's not healthy for you tolike, be walking through your
life and like having to pretendto be something that you're not.
Mateo (35:28):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Angus Ross (35:31):
And so what's what I'm trying to sort of like, the
point I'm trying to make is, themore you can transparently talk
about your different youranxieties, or whatever, but in a
way, where you feel like, yeah,I want to be able to have this
conversation, but I want to haveit in a settled way. I don't
want to have it now. Because I'mfeeling a little tweaked or a
little anxious.
Mateo (35:52):
Yeah, so can we say that, like in the, in the, you know,
the retreat that we did, therewas two parts where it was one
internal here, but then theother one was, how we
communicate with our partnerand, and when we're not feeling
well, so I've done really wellwith the controlling of here and
not going down these tunnels.
But I haven't yet practiced, youknow, actually talking to my
(36:15):
partner about, you know, thisexact thing of like, Hey, I
don't feel comfortable in here,I'm getting anxiety or Hey, I
feel that you're, you know, on adifferent level. We haven't done
that.
Angus Ross (36:28):
Yeah, that would, I would say I would be a keen
advocate for having thatconversation. But my my one
caveat is to is to ensure thebest of your ability that you
have that conversation where onwhen you're both neutral. And
you can even talk about you caneven set it up that way. So he's
not, you know, for thisconversation to take place it
needs to but we need to beneutral. And as soon as we get
(36:49):
one of us gets out of balance,then we need to disengage.
Mateo (36:52):
Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you.
It's, it's a good day to dothat, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
That's I do feel that I've madestrides here. But yeah, I
haven't I haven't practicedactive, you know, communicating
this stuff with her.
Angus Ross (37:15):
Well, that's a bit of a turn up, isn't it?
Rohini Ross (37:19):
What does that mean? People might not
understand what that means.
Please explain.
Angus Ross (37:22):
I guess that I guess that I got I don't know, I
should have slipped, I shouldhave seen it coming. You know,
we've worked together for foursession.
Rohini Ross (37:29):
But where's exp ession from? That's a bit of a t
rn up.
Angus Ross (37:31):
That's a bit of a turn up? You're not saying it's
a bit of a turnip?
No, I'm not saying he's sayingturn up. Or something turned up.
Something turned up that wasunexpected. I guess that's
that's the abbreviated versionof it kind of just a bit of a
turn up in it. As opposed toturn out?
Rohini Ross (37:52):
Well, it's quite funny, when he finally realized
that he's only cool as acucumber on the outs.
Angus Ross (38:00):
No, I guess I'm a bit of a bit of the remedial
student of this understanding.
And that respect took me a whileto get that out.
Rohini Ross (38:09):
It just shows how strong that veneer is with him.
Angus Ross (38:14):
Yeah, I mean, to the extent that he's he's dealing
with heart palpitations orhaving to have an achy EKG,
that's pretty serious stuff. Soobviously, it's really affecting
his physiology. Having a bottlethat all up.
Rohini Ross (38:28):
Yeah. So there's two pieces here, we he'd spoke
to how he's going to be moretransparent with Alicia about
his internal experience, which Ithink would be huge. And the
second piece, though, is, it'sreally going to be important for
him to have a differentrelationship with his thinking
(38:51):
so that he doesn't have thatlevel of anxiety.
Angus Ross (38:54):
Yeah, and I guess I should have seen the telltale
signs when I had to use all ofthe all of the all whatever I
had at my disposal, and whatevermeans I chose to share with him
what I felt would be of serviceto him understanding that he
creates his own experience. And,and obviously, he did have some
(39:17):
moments of insight, it wouldappear around that he's kind of
reverted back to type. And yeah,there are there again, are the
bumps on the cliff face thathe's facing is he's up against
his his old patterns of habitualbehavior.
Rohini Ross (39:32):
Yeah, but you have a good conversation with him and
you give him some he gets someperspective from it. And I think
we should just speak a littlebit though, in general about
anxiety and how that impactsrelationships because I would
say that whenever relationshipsare challenging, there's usually
some form of insecurity oranxiety present when you say,
Angus Ross (39:55):
I would say 100%?
Yeah, perhaps all of the timeand again, It boils down, not
going to sound like a scratchrecord. Everything boils down to
this, it boils down to a lack ofpresence, it boils down to a
disconnection that's born out ofsomeone's mind going elsewhere
and not being present in therelationship. And anxiety is an
easy train to get on in thatrespect, and can be a total
(40:19):
blind spot. And I haveencountered many clients who
have started a coachingexperience, let's say, and be in
complete denial about the factthat they are suffering from
anxiety, what I don't experienceanxiety, I'm not an anxious
person. And then sometime later,that's something that they
(40:43):
become aware of, wow, I neverknew I was anxious. So it's it
is a total blind spot, a blindspot for so many people. Yeah. I
misspoke. And I said it was ablind bought, I think.
Rohini Ross (41:02):
Well, even it was a blind spot, isn't it?
Angus Ross (41:07):
It was a blind spot for me. Certainly, when we got
together, I think I had atremendous amount. And we've
spoken about this too. I had atremendous amount of judgment
for what was evidently youranxiety, which to me was, you
know, depression is another wordthat we can use as a label for
anxiety.
Rohini Ross (41:25):
Well, I think there is slightly different flavor,
but I had both.
Angus Ross (41:29):
Yeah, but they're in the same food group. But I had a
lot of judgment for for youranxiety, okay, we'll call it
anxiety. And that was a totalprojection. Because I, it took
me a long time to realize, yeah,you know, what, I am actually
fundamentally quite an anxiousperson, deep down. And I took a
lot of my thinking veryseriously, and got quite
(41:52):
crippled by it on many anoccasion. But I couldn't
tolerate in you because Icouldn't tolerate it in myself.
And it was unbearable to dealwith, and probably why that was
neros significant conflictbetween us.
Rohini Ross (42:06):
And I think that's exactly the same thing that's
going on with Matteo. He doesn'tknow how to be with his own
experience. And so it's a blindspot to him. But Alicia is
talking to him. I don't reallyquite know what she's doing. So
terrible.
Angus Ross (42:26):
Basically, zips is just basically breathing.
Rohini Ross (42:31):
But that sets him off the edge. Yeah, he can
tolerate any kind of emotionaldemonstration that she shows
because he's so close to that.
Going over I mean, it soundslike he's having panic attacks.
Angus Ross (42:47):
Can I talk about your habit of picking your
fingers?
Rohini Ross (42:49):
Yes, you may talk about that.
Angus Ross (42:51):
So, right, you have this habit of picking her
fingers or cuticles or fingers.
And I can tolerate that. It'sit's actually an actual fact,
it's the sort of perfect weatherweather vane for my state of
mind, is if I am in a good stateof mind, I couldn't care less
basic because she picks upthings or not, she can chew up
to hand off a kid, I'm kidding.
(43:15):
But if I am feeling uptight oranxious, cannot bear it just,
it's like, it's like scraping achalk across a blackboard. It's
just unbearable to me. But it'sbecause I'm anxious. And it's
just a reminder of my anxiety,although I'm not necessarily
conscious of it. The fact thatyou're anxious enough to pick
your fingers, it just reallyhighlights my own anxiety
(43:39):
without really being aware of ityet. So I have absolute refusal
to accept it that behavior inyou. Because I can't tolerate it
in myself classic projection.
101. Right.
Rohini Ross (43:50):
Yeah. So for me, this is huge that he got to the
place of owning that he hasanxiety, and that he sees that.
And that part of the equation,as the two of you discuss here
in the segment, is being able tobe more vulnerable and
transparent about that in hisrelationship with Alicia. And
(44:10):
the second part is for him to beon the learning curve of seeing
how he engages with his anxiousthinking and how that's the
source of his anxiety. Yeah,
Angus Ross (44:22):
I mean, evidently, we are getting to a deeper level
of growth and learning. Yeah,maybe didn't show up in the
intensive. And that's what's sogood about doing the follow up
work. Because these things havea tendency in the real world to
appear. And I think that we havehopefully, helped them get to a
higher level of understandingthat maybe allowed them to
(44:43):
unearth some of these things.
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (44:45):
And the next time you speak with him, the next
clip is from the next session,things have dramatically shifted
for him.
Angus Ross (44:53):
We'll see.
Mateo (45:00):
Things are, are way better than that. And last time
we spoke, I think it was just, Iwas missing that whole. That
whole piece of the pie where youcan openly talk with your
partner being Hey, right Now'snot the time, right? So it's
pretty cool. Everything's beengood. On Friday, we had our
(45:20):
seven year anniversary of whenwe started dating. So we had a
fun weekend, I went to dinnerthe next night, we did a pasta
making class the next day wentto the beach went surfing. And
Angus Ross (45:34):
That sounds great.
Mateo (45:36):
Yeah. I'm really excited.
And it's been really, reallyawesome lately and I being
thankful isn't enough, you knowwhat I mean?
Angus Ross (45:48):
So one might be inclined to believe, based on
details change in tune that heis, he is somewhat capricious
his nature. Because sort of gonefrom a situation where we did
get quickly down into the depthsof despair. And then we're kind
(46:08):
of back where we belong. Maybein our natural state. I guess
it's a case of, you know,what's, what next? What's gonna
happen next?
Rohini Ross (46:20):
I've got that Joe Cocker. You set that up, where
we're where we belong. You won'tserenade me with it?
Angus Ross (46:29):
I will not serenade you with that.
Rohini Ross (46:31):
Oh, well, yes, I agree. I was listening while I
had the Joe Cocker song in myhead. It's a certain, certainly
a big turnaround. And at thispoint, we had had our individual
follow up sessions with Aliciaand Mateo. And the final step
would be to come together andjust debrief the whole intensive
(46:54):
experience, clarify anything andthen be complete. And so it
seemed like we were going alongswimmingly well.
Angus Ross (47:03):
Hard and dry.
Rohini Ross (47:05):
Exactly. So at this point, we were just in the
scheduling phase of figuring outwhen to set up that final group
session. And at least see hiswork required her to do some
travel. And the scheduling tooklonger than normal, rather than,
(47:25):
you know, a couple of weeks. Wehadn't got anything on the
books. And then about a monthafter that conversation that you
just had with Mateo where he'ssaying that, I get this email
from Alicia, Hey, Rohini. Idon't really know how to write
you this email. As I'm not sureif Mateo has spoken to Angus. On
(47:48):
Friday, he came home and verycalmly told me he didn't want to
renew our lease together, anddidn't want to continue forward
with me, which was hard for himto do since we hadn't been in
turmoil. His words, he proceededto completely move out on
Saturday, and I've been anemotional wreck ever since. He
gave me a ton of mixed reasonsthat I can't really tell what is
(48:09):
real and what isn't. Seems likehe finally made the decision of
wanting for us to be overforever, which I deep down
believe is a huge mistake on hispart. It completely pains me to
tell you all of this as I trulyfrom the bottom of my heart.
appreciate all the work andeffort you and Angus attempted
to do for us. I will forever begrateful to you both. I'm so
sorry. This didn't work out. Andit kills me to even say that. I
(48:33):
hope for his sake, he finds thehappiness he seeks. I know for
me once I can get out of thisdepressed time that I will be
okay. I'm sorry to give you thisnews. It pains me more than you
can ever know. I haven't beenable to stop crying or eat since
Friday afternoon. Is this is themost brutal thing I've ever gone
through. Thank you for all thelove and support you've shown me
(48:54):
Alicia
Angus Ross (48:57):
My Goodness me. It's been quite the roller coaster
ride. I mean, my goodness onit's been for us a roller
coaster. Right? That for and forthem. And for her in particular.
Obviously she's really sufferingat this point. And to feel like
everything was so beautifullyback on track. And then and then
(49:21):
I think as as Mateo said earlieron in the podcast, how she jumps
the track must feel like asignificant derailment. And I
can only imagine what she'sgoing through at this point.
devastation, really?
Rohini Ross (49:39):
Yeah, so we instead of having the group session, I
continue working with Alicia andMateo goes AWOL for a period of
time. And there is still more tobe revealed.
Angus Ross (49:54):
There is so listen to this space. Doesn't sound
quite right. Listen to thisspace does it? Does it work? One
would watch this space, if onewas in commercial television.
But in commercial radio? Wouldyou listen to this space? Would
(50:16):
you listen? Listen for thequiet. What would you listen
for? Because he can't go lookingfor it? Can you go listening for
it? I don't know. I amexperiencing a certain amount of
befuddlement around this idea oflistening to the space.
Rohini Ross (50:38):
So you would say watch this space.
Angus Ross (50:40):
You say watch this space. If you're in commercial
television, right? Imagine youwould, I don't know. I've heard
I've heard people say that ontelevision.
Rohini Ross (50:48):
I don't think people say listen to this space,
Angus Ross (50:52):
who just say listen,
Rohini Ross (50:57):
maybe we should just say listen to next week's
episode,
Angus Ross (51:00):
would they say listen, and you might hear
something new. That's it.
Listen, and you might hearsomething new.
Rohini Ross (51:11):
Okay, I will,
Angus Ross (51:15):
That's all I got.
Rohini Ross (51:18):
And don't forget, if you would like to have your
questions answered in the askanything episodes, please send
them in. You can email them toinfo at the rewilders.org, or
you can call for 424-272-6497.
(51:48):
Thank you so much for listeningto Rewilding Love. If you
enjoyed this podcast, please letus know by subscribing on
iTunes. And we would love foryou to leave a review there.
Angus Ross (51:59):
iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who
need help with theirrelationships.
Rohini Ross (52:04):
If you would like to learn more about our work and
our online rewilding community,please visit our website,
therewillders.org
Angus Ross (52:13):
Thanks for listening. Join us next week.
Welcome to rewilding love. This season is with a
couple on the brink of divorce.
Rohini Ross (00:10):
This is Episode 13.
Relationship on the rocks.
Alicia (00:16):
The conversation ended with us laughing and giggling
Angus Ross (00:19):
Oh, my goodness me seem quite the roller coaster
ride.
Rohini Ross (00:23):
What am I hearing is that you're not taking things
personally. If he gets snappy,you're able to see Well, that's
his state of mind in the moment,
Angus Ross (00:31):
it would appear. The sheen of wisdom has not worn off
yet, from their experiencesintensive.
Alicia (00:38):
It's been very peaceful, very calm.
Rohini Ross (00:41):
That's what happens when we spend more time
experiencing our true nature,allowing herself to be rewarded
by we get into the feeling ofwell being. And those deeper
feelings of love and compassion,and anything that's not that all
of a sudden becomes a whole lotless tolerable to us.
Mateo (01:00):
Honest thing is like no, she's a pain in the ass. Much
better at like dealing with it.
Angus Ross (01:07):
Someone's got themselves into a low mood. He's
hit the cliff face and he'stumbling
Mateo (01:14):
Until the cucumber on the outside inside on his How does
it tamale?
Angus Ross (01:18):
I'm experiencing certain other befuddlement
around this idea of listening tospace. You are listening to
rewilding love with me, AngusRoss,
Rohini Ross (01:29):
and me Rohini Ross
Angus Ross (01:31):
Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.
Rohini Ross (01:35):
We believe that love never disappears completely
in relationships. It can alwaysbe rewilded, listen in as we
guide a real couple back totheir natural state of love,
Angus Ross (01:46):
Relax, and enjoy the show.
Rohini Ross (01:56):
We're excited to let you know that we're going to
be doing some ask anythingpodcast episodes. And so we'd
love to hear from you. If youhave any questions about the
podcast about relationships ingeneral, or any other questions
that you'd like us to answer.
We'd love for you to send themin. And so you can send them in
via email to info at therewilders.org info at the
(02:17):
rewilding.org. Or if you'd liketo send in your question
anonymously. You can call yourquestion 424-272-6497.
Angus Ross (02:39):
Okay, well, that's, that's another intensive in the
bag. I wanted to help her getalong in the big wide world,
Rohini Ross (02:47):
we now have to fledgling rewilded out there.
Angus Ross (02:50):
We do
Rohini Ross (02:52):
I think it's important to talk about the
intensive experience just togive it some context in terms of
where they're at in theirjourney. And so the reason why
we have intensives in a retreatsetting is because we recognize
that when people get out oftheir day to day lives, and
don't have those pressures onthem, they tend to relax, their
(03:15):
minds tend to settle quitequickly. And in that space, it's
just natural that the feelingsof well being and joy naturally
come to the surface and are feltmore clearly.
Angus Ross (03:29):
Yeah, there's a method to our madness, for sure.
I have heard it said, andvarious trainings that we've
done, and certainly in couplesworkshops, or intensives, where
people will get up and share acouple get up and share. And
they will lament the fact thatthey wish that their
(03:50):
relationship could be how it iswhen they're on vacation. And
they're on holiday, because theyget on like a house on fire
under those circumstances andthose conditions, which is more
grist for the mill, as far aswe're concerned, because that
just demonstrates that it's allabout state of mind. So when
they're in a relaxed, unsettledstate of mind, they do get on
like a house on fire. And theyhave perspective. And when they
(04:13):
get out there into the big wideworld and get sped up and, and
unsettled as the case may be, asfar as their state of mind is
concerned, then they lose thatperspective. So we are actually
doing everything in our power tocreate a setting where all of
that analytical machinery hasplenty of room to slow down. And
(04:36):
we try and engineer a settlestate. And that's where we have
the leverage that we're lookingfor, to get that couple to a
place of how would I articulatethis because I want to also be
cognizant of the fact that wewant to not have an agenda but
in terms of helping that clientor the client see what they need
to see. It's much better thatthey be in a settled state of
(04:56):
mind. So we're doing everythingthat we can to create that state
Rohini Ross (05:00):
Yeah, I don't know that I would use the word
engineer because that sounds alot, I know
Angus Ross (05:04):
you're gonna pick me up on that I tried to reel it
back in late, you wouldn't letme
Rohini Ross (05:11):
I heard it. It didn't slip by me
Angus Ross (05:17):
Fell off that cliff ever so swiftly.
Rohini Ross (05:21):
Rather than engineering, we we set up a
context that allows the naturalstate to come forward. How's
that?
Angus Ross (05:28):
Yeah, that'll do for me, okay, what she said.
Rohini Ross (05:33):
And so, it's amazing how quickly shifts can
happen. In the couples work thatwe do in an intensive setting
and the individual intensivesthat we each do, it's really
wonderful to see how flexiblethe mind is and how flexible we
are that we can drop out of ourthinking and come back to our
(05:56):
natural state so easily. And asyou've heard through listening,
Matteo and Alicia are in anincredible space. At this point
in time, Matteo can even imaginegetting into the conflicts that
they were having, as he wasleaving the intensive.
Angus Ross (06:13):
Yeah, dare I say he might be guilty of getting a
little bit cocky about what thefuture holds in store for him.
Rohini Ross (06:21):
And we're not gonna pop their bubble, because we
don't know it could be a reallysmooth sailing ride. And
sometimes it is, but often,after intensives why we have the
follow up sessions is werecognize that it can be a bumpy
reentry at times.
Angus Ross (06:39):
Yes, it can be a bumpy reentry at times. And I
know that we want to do our bestto send our couples off in a
good feeling. But I think it isimportant to be aware of the
fact that there may be a fewhiccups, bumps in the road. And
I do think that he was a littlebit he was guilty of being a
(07:00):
little bit cocky, a bit full ofhimself as far as that's
concerned. And I was thinking aswe as I was listening to you use
this phrase, it was a bumpy,bumpy road or bumps along the
way. I thought of a goodmetaphor here. And I don't know
if you remember seeing thatdocumentary. It was a David
(07:21):
Attenborough documentary. And Ithink the name of the bird, I
think it was called a barnaclegoose. And they nest somewhere
up in the Arctic Circle. Andthey choose to nest on the side
of this cliff face. And I thinkit's about four and 400 feet up
in the air. And that when theGosling's as it were, they are
(07:41):
called Gosling's baby geese.
When they decide to spread theirwings and fly, I think it would
appear that that decision issomewhat premature, because
their wings to say the leastlook pretty embryonic in their
nature. And judging on the sizeof their their body, the wings
look pretty tiny. Nevertheless,they jump out the nest at 400
feet in the air. And they beginthis process of you couldn't
(08:04):
really call it gliding, you haveto stay is basically falling.
And for the first 300 feet,they're doing pretty well
remaining a fairly sort ofstable descent until there is of
course until they hit the sideof the cliff. At which point
they start tumbling down andbumping down. And you know,
(08:24):
eventually they reach the bottomand the music is so sinister
that you think that they've mademet an untimely end. And then
there's this horrible pregnantpause where where I guess the
parents come to see how the hellI guess to witness to see the
dead body of their dearlydeparted offspring. And lo and
behold, the chick comes to lifeand just sort of like, you know,
(08:48):
shakes itself down. At whichpoint you suddenly hear the very
dulcet tones of DavidAttenborough's voice in a
grossly underestimatedassessment. In terms of the
gravitas of the situation. Youhear him say, the chick,
somewhat dazed and confused,springs back to life, which is
(09:13):
really, to be honest. You'vejust, I don't know how any
creature could tumble down inthat way and somehow live to
tell the tale. Anyway, this is avery long, verbose way of making
a point around alyssia Mateosexperience where Yeah, I guess
Matteo can be forgive beforgiven for his overconfidence.
(09:36):
And I guess for me, they got theGosling's initial leap out of
the nest, somewhat reminiscentof Mateos overconfidence in that
situation, but I do feel likepart of the journey and doing
these intensives is we hopefullyallow our clients to experience
their innate resilience so Thatoverconfidence was Mateo like
(10:00):
that chick leaping out of thenest with him tapping into his
innate resilience, he wasperhaps not thinking about the
possible bump on the way. And ina sense, I hope he doesn't meet
any of those kind of bumps to,to the extent that that poor
chick did. But nevertheless,that's a possibility. But I do
feel like that confidence thathe's experiencing, and I think
(10:23):
for for Alicia, too, that isvery much a part of the journey,
that when they do settle, whenthey do come back into the
innate, well, you know, intothat state of innate well being,
then that sense of resilienceand self confidence for, for
what the future holds in storeemerges. And it's a beautiful
(10:44):
thing.
Rohini Ross (10:47):
Yeah, hopefully, the intensive experience has
given them a reference point. Soeven if things do get difficult
if they get stirred up, if theydemonstrate some of the old
behaviors, they have a referencepoint that's known to them, it's
experiential. And they willremember that it's possible to
get back to the space thatthey're in, currently. And when
(11:10):
they have hope for that, andwhen they know it's possible,
they're much more likely to findways to look in that direction,
that will allow themselves toget back there. Yeah,
Angus Ross (11:20):
I use that term reference point all the time to
get a good reference point, sothat you'll have something to,
to look to when things arestarting to get out of hand. So
in a sense, a retreat, orintensives, the intensives that
we provide, are really one bigglorious reference point in
(11:44):
terms of how we guide them backto their essential nature, we
guide them back to their wisdom,we guide them back to their
innate resilience. And then inhaving that experience, that's
something that they can draw onwhen when life starts to look a
little bit difficult, or theirstate of mind has gone south.
Hopefully, they will rememberwell hang on a minute. On the
(12:07):
intensive, much in the same way,all those people would say,
yeah, we're on holiday. We geton like our some fire. They say
themselves look, when we're,when we're doing that intensive,
we suddenly found ourselveslooking through new new optics
and life looked entirelydifferent. And so that reference
(12:29):
point is going to be invaluablemoving forward. And they will
forget it, they will forgetabout it from time to time, as
do we all but the growth forthem as it is for us all is how
quickly we bounced back andremember what exactly is going
on. And it's just really down toa state of mind. And that's just
(12:49):
informing our reactivity, ourbehavior, our response is always
going to be a reflection of ourstate of mind. So having that
reference point is going to besomething that's going to be
really useful for them movingforward.
Rohini Ross (13:05):
And I want to point out that we all have our
reference points, that thisisn't just about Alicea
material, that this is somethingthat's universal, that every
single one of us has a referencepoint for what peace of mind
feels like, every single one ofus has a reference point for
knowing what we're like whenwe're not in a reactive state.
(13:26):
Everyone knows what it's likewhen they're in a good feeling
versus when they're all stirredup and reactive. And so when we
recognize that that's areflection of our mood
fluctuating, and not about ourcircumstances, we can really
look in the direction of how totake care of ourselves, so that
(13:48):
we can let our state of mindsettle. And then we come back
naturally to that place of wellbeing inside. And that is such a
game changer for life ingeneral. But for relationships,
especially. Because when we knowthat when the relationship feels
difficult, but that's areflection of our state of mind.
It's going to stop us frombehaving in ways toward our
(14:11):
partner or toward other peoplein our life that actually make
things a lot harder to getalong.
Angus Ross (14:18):
Yeah, as you're talking, it makes me wonder
about all those occasions wherewe get asked about how do we how
do we find our way back to thatsettled state of mind? And I
guess I'm guilty, as much as thenext person of trying to figure
out well, how do I do that? AndI think that why the reference
(14:39):
point idea is so valuable, isit's it's not about there being
a technique to it. It's aboutthere being a state of awareness
of realizing that this is justmy state of mind, and that's why
I'm suffering in this situation.
I'm putting thoughts on thisstate of mind and I'm getting on
board that train of thought andit's not really taking me
anywhere. But I really want togo at this point in time,
(15:01):
however compelling it may be.
But just to have that awarenessand have that reference point
means that I'm really what I'mreally ultimately doing is
finding a way to be present inthis current situation with
whatever's going on, and nottaking it personally. And so
it's taking on the role of anobserver, rather than a role of
(15:24):
the character. In that virtualreality that unfolds in that
state of mind, I kind of removedmyself from the thinking of that
state of mind through awareness.
And I think that that'ssomething to expand into a
wonderful to have a referencepoint and realize, yeah, this is
something that I can look at andexplore here. When I feel like
I'm, I'm struggling.
Rohini Ross (15:45):
So for everybody, just knowing the difference
between being in a good state ofmind versus not being good state
of mind. That's really thesimplicity of this. When we know
the difference, we know how toact accordingly. And life gets a
whole lot easier. Sure does. Andso we're going to hear from
Alicia next, and she is veryoptimistic about how things are
(16:08):
going and feels very hopeful. Solet's hear what she has to say.
What I'm hearing is that you'renot taking things personally, if
he gets snappy, you're kind ofable to see well that's that's
his state of mind in the moment.
You don't have to sort of reactto that. So does that mean that
(16:31):
because I remember you sayingthat things would escalate
before does that mean thingsaren't escalating now? Nothing
is escalated? Oh, that's great.
Well, that's, that'ssignificant, then that's really
Alicia (16:43):
Yeah, not one like argument. Not really like a
disagreement, like agree todisagree moment, it's more so
like, it's been very peacefuland very calm and very, like, he
went, what the weekend after ourtherapy session, he had gone
with his buddy for the day to gosnowboarding. And he was very
communicative with me andchecking in. And then I just,
(17:04):
like, let him do his thing. Andso we've like, had our moments
like, separated and had ittogether. And like I said,
nothing's really like triggeredeither of us. Oh, no, I'm sorry,
triggered me. Right. Um, butthings that I've like really
looked at have been, like himbeing more affectionate and like
wanting to help and offset any,like, household chores.
Angus Ross (17:26):
So she seems to be in a good place. It would appear
to the sheen of wisdom has notworn off yet from their
experience at the intensive. Oh,it's that sounds very hopeful.
Rohini Ross (17:43):
Yeah, I was really pleased to hear that the
volatility had shifted, and thathad sustained itself. So that to
me was significant for both ofthem.
Angus Ross (17:54):
Yeah, no, that's, that's wonderful. Long may it
last.
Rohini Ross (17:58):
And next, we'll hear from Mateo and he actually,
is really excited about how theimpact of the understanding is
helping him at work.
Mateo (18:12):
So it was really funny though, like, I took what we
learned, moving aside from myrelationship, I took what we
learned and I, you know, metwith my sales team and just like
trying to get like, their, theirpulse, like, you know, what,
what things are you guys dealingwith, you know, and, and all
this stuff. And, you know, Ijust saw that they were like,
(18:34):
paralysis by analysis typestuff. And yeah, Hawk, they
would already know how theconversation was going and, and
all that stuff. And they feltthat they could talk to anyone
and everyone had the same painpoints and stuff like that. And
I just totally told them to getrid of any preconceived ideas
(18:58):
that you have. I don't want youto do anything other than ask
questions on a phone call reallyget to know people not just
qualify them but understandtheir pain points. I don't care
how you sell but the first threeto five minutes of your
conversation should really befocused about the other person
(19:21):
on the phone. And the reason youdo that is to first get to know
them build some rapport, butalso to get rid of this story
that you already have in yourhead and you know, be able to
approach you know, sell with aclean slate not think that every
sale is exactly you know, acookie Yeah, and buck man these
(19:43):
kids have been closing accountsright nice. That's awesome.
Okay, this is where it reallygets crazy. So one of my sales
kids he's like 24 years old.
It's got a lot of good potentialbut he is one of these really
quick to respond, right? doesn'tfully think it out just like
qwikster respond. Again, I don'tknow why. But ever since we had
(20:05):
that conversation, he pauses, hepauses, and he thinks about what
he's about to say. And heprocesses everything. So really
smart kid processes. And he'slike, okay, but it used to be
very combative. Like, oh, yeah,but this is how we used to do
that where I was before, rightnow. He's like, digesting it and
(20:26):
being like, Okay. What do youthink about this, right? Like,
but see, he's fucking thinkingfor this fucking guy. So I'm
very thankful I'm applying thisin my work. And that's great.
Yeah, really cool.
Rohini Ross (20:50):
It's interesting when people are impacted by what
we share, it doesn't necessarilytouch the issue that they're
wanting it to touch right away,it often will go to other areas
of life where it's more easilyintegrated and understood. And
that's what I hear here withMatteo, I hear that he sees this
(21:13):
very clearly at work. Herecognizes now, the value of
presence, the value of listeningdeeply the value of connecting
human to human, and having thatreflective state of mind where
you can listen to the deeperknowing or common sense and have
that be what is the compasspoint for work. And so I think
(21:38):
it's really a beautifuldescription that he gives as to
how he's been impacted and howhe's now sharing this with his
team.
Angus Ross (21:46):
Yeah, and how excited he is about how he's
seeing the fruits of sharingthis understanding, really
starting to ripen proliferate.
And I think, yeah, you'reabsolutely right. And we see
this all the time, and we havethe luxury of perhaps, you know,
we do relationship work. Andthat's something that we're
particularly fun to doing. Butwe have also done quite a bit of
(22:07):
corporate work as well. Andwe've also, we've also had
situations where people in thecorporate field are seeing how
this has really helped them athome, in their relationship,
because we're taught,ultimately, we're talking about
relationship, right across thefield. So this understanding is
very universal at this level.
(22:29):
And so all of those qualitiesare very apropos in a corporate
setting just as much as they areat home with one's significant
other.
Rohini Ross (22:38):
Well, there's no area of life that isn't impacted
by our state of mind. And byhaving an understanding of how
to navigate the human experienceof having moods that go up and
down. Having a mind that is moreexpensive, at times more close
to others, when we know how tonavigate that more gracefully.
It makes all areas of life moreeasy.
Angus Ross (22:59):
Yeah, I really, at the end of the day, how to be
genuinely present with anotherhuman being to really relate to
someone at that level. That'swhat he's seeing in his in his
workforce. And and that's what'sbeen helping his marriage to.
Rohini Ross (23:15):
Absolutely. Well, we'll hear from Alicia now. And
she's even saying that they'renavigating the bumps fairly well
to
Alicia (23:31):
Actually really funny, we did have one conversation,
where I scaled back from it,because I saw it was going to a,
like a bad kind of session. Itwas about finances. And he had
called me and he was definitelyin a low mood about it. And he
was just like, upset about likepaying some bills or whatever.
(23:51):
And he always wanted to playlike the blame game on me. And I
just I remember, like beinglike, you know what, I really do
want to talk to you about this,but I'm not really in the state
of mind to be able toeffectively like chat with you
about it. I was like, I'm justand I'm totally fine. I like
kind of like I was like, I'mjust in a little bit of a bad
mood from work. So like, I don'twant it to transpire to this,
because I could already tell hewas getting like dance. And I
(24:14):
was like, but I do want to sitdown and let's map everything
out. And we'll do it togetherand this and that. I was like,
but I really don't think it'stime for a conversation right
now. And he kept like trying andtrying and I was like, I'm gonna
have to let you go. Like, I justI can't have that conversation.
Now. I just don't want it to gothere. I was like, um, you know,
I just have to get through someother stuff. And the
conversation ended with uslaughing and giggling on the
(24:36):
other end and never really likelooking at the stuff later on.
But I think it's just because hewas angry that one of his bills
is probably more than what hehad thought it would be for the
month. Right? Right. Right.
Rohini Ross (24:45):
So he was kind of upset about that. Not anything
really to do with you.
Angus Ross (24:51):
Well, yeah, that's fantastic, isn't it? She's,
she's very much the the modelstudent of this understanding
now and she was able to not takethe ait is obviously a
significant test in thatrespect. And I love the fact
that it ended up with themlaughing about, you know,
whatever they were laughingabout, they were able to get to
(25:11):
that place and not take thatsituation personally or
seriously. And, and yet, here isprovided another wonderful
reference point to move forwardand realize, yeah, these are not
the times to perhaps have aconversation when our state of
mind has gone south, even whenour partner is doing everything
in their power to pull us policyin and do exactly that. So good
(25:34):
for her.
Rohini Ross (25:35):
Yeah, good for her.
And for me, this is one of thekey pieces for people to really
hear, in terms of having morerelationship happiness, if we
could all get better. And I'llinclude myself in the we, if we
could all get better at nottrying to work things out when
we're in a low mood, and havethe patience to wait and revisit
(25:58):
when we're in a better state ofmind. So much suffering would be
diminished.
Angus Ross (26:07):
And it's so hard to do, isn't it because it can feel
so compelling Is it is it istrying to sort of get to a place
of neutrality, so that aredisengaged, and the cogs and
gears or analytical machinery,which is desperate to find some
quick solution to what lookslike an enormous problem. And
yet, it's in that space ofneutrality. Where we find we
(26:30):
recapture perspective, and morethan likely, easily find a
solution?
Rohini Ross (26:37):
Well, I think what happens is when we're in
emotional suffering, ourinstinctual brain tells us to
get rid of the suffering asquickly as possible. So that's
why we feel compelled to try andwork it out. But if we can
understand that the feelingswill just come and go, they
don't do anything to us, theydon't harm us in any way. And if
(26:59):
we can get better at having anopen space within ourselves to
just allow feelings to movethrough us, then we're not going
to react to them. We're notgoing to react from them. And
they pass so much more quickly.
Angus Ross (27:13):
Yeah, I think again, doesn't it boil back down to
presence, the presence tounderstand that there is this,
this this intense pull towardsthe analytical mind that wants
to think things through andachieve a result as quickly as
possible on that end? And itdoes feel counterintuitive to
(27:36):
sort of look towards space andneutrality. And yet, that's
where all the goodies are.
That's where we will hopefullyhave a hunch or or piece of
intuition and instinct that willwill offer us a new way to
approach what looks like animpossible situation.
Rohini Ross (27:54):
Yeah. And Alicia is doing really well with that.
Yes, yes. Mateo, on the otherhand, might have finished his
soaring piece of comingdown.Let's hear what he has to
say.
Mateo (28:15):
Can I put it it's a lot less weight in the relationship,
but uh, I mean, there's stillshit that pisses me off.
Honestly, I guess like, no,she's a pain in the ass. Much
better at like dealing with it.
But that's where I'm at rightnow is, you know, I could deal
(28:36):
with it before. Now I deal withit, you know, in a different
way, where it's, again, lessweight. But I mean, the
negativity shit still comes intothe household. And I mean, she
tries to spark the conversationsthat way, and I just, just, just
don't talk. I've just likesilent. You know, like, I was
doing the dishes the othernight, and she said something
(28:59):
along the lines because she wasgoing in for a review or
something. And all she wants todo is me tell her like, her
review is gonna go alright. AndI've already done that, like, 10
times, right? I'm like, you'vegot this, like, you know,
you're, you're so valuable toyour team members and your
company. Like, it's all going togo well, well, fuck, it was 10
(29:20):
time and she said it underneathher breath. towards me, she
wanted me to obviously, I justkept doing the dishes. I was
like, I'm going to pretend likeI don't even hear her shit. I'm
just, you know, I'm just washingthe dishes. But that's the
problem is that like, I don'twant to live my life like that.
I want to live my life with notsomeone that I'm going to be
(29:42):
compatible all the time with.
But like 80% that'd be nice toget a good shot. You know?
Angus Ross (29:52):
Someone's got themselves into a low mood. He's
crossed over to the other side,isn't he? He's lost his bearings
he has he's hit the cliff face.
And he's tumbling.
Rohini Ross (30:08):
And he doesn't think he's tumbling
Angus Ross (30:10):
Not at all. No idea.
Yeah. And his feathers, hisfeathers are definitely ruffled.
Rohini Ross (30:20):
They're not quite big enough to carry his body yet
Angus Ross (30:22):
not quite big enough to carry his body. We we let him
jump out the nest way too soon.
Well, yeah, that's why we'rehere, isn't it? That's why we do
the follow up.
Rohini Ross (30:33):
Exactly. That's why there's the tumble. Yeah. But
you speak to him about a lot ofthis and you, you do speak to it
in a lot of different ways. AndI'm not going to share all of
the different ways that youtried to remind him of what was
discussed in the intensive. Butin this next section, all of a
sudden, you understand that he'sdealing with anxiety, and in
(30:57):
quite a significant way.
Angus Ross (31:00):
Okay, I forgot about that. So I'm looking forward to
hearing what I said.
Mateo (31:10):
Yeah, I mean, to the point where it's true, like the
anxiety is real. I do get a onceI get home and I get these chest
pains and even so much so that II initially made an appointment
to go meet with the cardiologistbecause I had three EKGs they
all come back normal, butthere's something there. I don't
know if it's things I don't knowwhat it is, but I really wanted
(31:31):
like nip it in the bud andfigure something out here. But..
Angus Ross (31:36):
So hang on a minute.
I mean, we've got a little youknow, gone a little bit more,
but um, So on one hand, you'resaying you're super chill when
you get home and now you'retelling me you're having chest
pains because of what just seemsprobably anxiety.
Mateo (31:49):
And I am super chill.
Like when I come home a blankslate. And then when she starts
running and bulldozing me I'mstill chill. But in here I'm
like
Angus Ross (32:01):
oh, say you're a stern on the external. This idea
is the appearance of chill, butinside you're not feeling chill.
Mateo (32:08):
Oh, yeah, I'm chilled a cucumber on the outside inside,
um, as hot as a tamale.
Angus Ross (32:17):
Pretty intense.
Well, that's something we got towork on.
Mateo (32:25):
We got it. Yeah. I think I think what you said is being
able to acknowledge when you dostart feeling that way and
letting your partner know like,Hey, I'm starting to fucking get
you know, I'm starting to likepant over here. like a like a
hot dog. Like I can't, you know?
Angus Ross (32:42):
Yeah, no, absolutely. 100% because she
can't How is she gonna if you'relike you, maybe you're just
like, got a great poker face.
And she's like, going off 19 tothe dozen trying to sort of get
some sort of like, some sort ofconnection going which
obviously, she's getting moresped up as time wears on that
connection. She's like, She'slike, it's like someone hanging
(33:03):
on for like this for dear lifetrying to find that, that life
ring to connect with you andyou're like, like, deadpan.
She's got no read on what'sgoing on. So she's just gonna
come at you with all gunsblazing?
Mateo (33:17):
Yeah, it's hard. It's like I'm a lifeguard and she's
like, saved me and she'sdrowning you the same time.
Angus Ross (33:24):
You're kind of like, you're an indifferent like,
lifeguard because on thesurface, you look like oh, yeah,
got this all under control. Butinside you kind of go, oh my
god, she's gonna drown. Andshe's gonna pull me down with
her.
Mateo (33:36):
Yeah, that's one of the other things they made on
plastic.
Angus Ross (33:41):
So so so in a sense, it's kind of like, Yes,
absolutely. 100% then the moreyou let her know that I am
feeling like I don't know howyou articulate and you do it in
a way that's as neutral as youcan be in that situation. But I
am starting to feel anxiousabout this conversation. It's
(34:01):
making me feel anxious thatwould probably quite refreshing
for me to hear. And I wouldimagine she'd be like, Oh, well,
that's, that's interesting. Andit's kind of like, that allows
us to look at ourselves thatallows us like kind of like,
maybe have a look at how she'sshowing up.
Mateo (34:18):
Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean, I brought it up to
her to that, like I made anappointment for a cardiologist
and she was like, Well, hey,like why I'm like, because I
feel like I'm gonna die at thetime so I feel Yeah, like
Angus Ross (34:32):
yeah, maybe you got a hold that all in that takes
its toll.
Mateo (34:36):
No shit, Angus. No.
Angus Ross (34:39):
No. Well, then this is like, this is an important
thing to look at. and holding itall in as you like, like keeping
this like cool facade guy andlike, I've got my shit together.
And that in itself is puttingyou under a lot of pressure.
Mateo (34:52):
Yeah, I'm not doing it to pretend like I got my shit
together. I'm doing it so Idon't just tell someone to shut
the fuck up.
Angus Ross (34:58):
Like That's just another way of like keeping your
shit together.
Mateo (35:02):
Yeah, yes, I guess. But I'm not like trying to do it to
like put off like, Oh, I'm sosuperior and I'm so enlightened,
ya know.
Angus Ross (35:12):
But there's a sort of like, I know that that, you
know, I can see that yourmotives on what in a sense,
there's like there's an elementof dishonesty about it, it's not
really healthy for you to like,in the sense of your physiology
that's not healthy for you tolike, be walking through your
life and like having to pretendto be something that you're not.
Mateo (35:28):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Angus Ross (35:31):
And so what's what I'm trying to sort of like, the
point I'm trying to make is, themore you can transparently talk
about your different youranxieties, or whatever, but in a
way, where you feel like, yeah,I want to be able to have this
conversation, but I want to haveit in a settled way. I don't
want to have it now. Because I'mfeeling a little tweaked or a
little anxious.
Mateo (35:52):
Yeah, so can we say that, like in the, in the, you know,
the retreat that we did, therewas two parts where it was one
internal here, but then theother one was, how we
communicate with our partnerand, and when we're not feeling
well, so I've done really wellwith the controlling of here and
not going down these tunnels.
But I haven't yet practiced, youknow, actually talking to my
(36:15):
partner about, you know, thisexact thing of like, Hey, I
don't feel comfortable in here,I'm getting anxiety or Hey, I
feel that you're, you know, on adifferent level. We haven't done
that.
Angus Ross (36:28):
Yeah, that would, I would say I would be a keen
advocate for having thatconversation. But my my one
caveat is to is to ensure thebest of your ability that you
have that conversation where onwhen you're both neutral. And
you can even talk about you caneven set it up that way. So he's
not, you know, for thisconversation to take place it
needs to but we need to beneutral. And as soon as we get
(36:49):
one of us gets out of balance,then we need to disengage.
Mateo (36:52):
Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you.
It's, it's a good day to dothat, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
That's I do feel that I've madestrides here. But yeah, I
haven't I haven't practicedactive, you know, communicating
this stuff with her.
Angus Ross (37:15):
Well, that's a bit of a turn up, isn't it?
Rohini Ross (37:19):
What does that mean? People might not
understand what that means.
Please explain.
Angus Ross (37:22):
I guess that I guess that I got I don't know, I
should have slipped, I shouldhave seen it coming. You know,
we've worked together for foursession.
Rohini Ross (37:29):
But where's exp ession from? That's a bit of a t
rn up.
Angus Ross (37:31):
That's a bit of a turn up? You're not saying it's
a bit of a turnip?
No, I'm not saying he's sayingturn up. Or something turned up.
Something turned up that wasunexpected. I guess that's
that's the abbreviated versionof it kind of just a bit of a
turn up in it. As opposed toturn out?
Rohini Ross (37:52):
Well, it's quite funny, when he finally realized
that he's only cool as acucumber on the outs.
Angus Ross (38:00):
No, I guess I'm a bit of a bit of the remedial
student of this understanding.
And that respect took me a whileto get that out.
Rohini Ross (38:09):
It just shows how strong that veneer is with him.
Angus Ross (38:14):
Yeah, I mean, to the extent that he's he's dealing
with heart palpitations orhaving to have an achy EKG,
that's pretty serious stuff. Soobviously, it's really affecting
his physiology. Having a bottlethat all up.
Rohini Ross (38:28):
Yeah. So there's two pieces here, we he'd spoke
to how he's going to be moretransparent with Alicia about
his internal experience, which Ithink would be huge. And the
second piece, though, is, it'sreally going to be important for
him to have a differentrelationship with his thinking
(38:51):
so that he doesn't have thatlevel of anxiety.
Angus Ross (38:54):
Yeah, and I guess I should have seen the telltale
signs when I had to use all ofthe all of the all whatever I
had at my disposal, and whatevermeans I chose to share with him
what I felt would be of serviceto him understanding that he
creates his own experience. And,and obviously, he did have some
(39:17):
moments of insight, it wouldappear around that he's kind of
reverted back to type. And yeah,there are there again, are the
bumps on the cliff face thathe's facing is he's up against
his his old patterns of habitualbehavior.
Rohini Ross (39:32):
Yeah, but you have a good conversation with him and
you give him some he gets someperspective from it. And I think
we should just speak a littlebit though, in general about
anxiety and how that impactsrelationships because I would
say that whenever relationshipsare challenging, there's usually
some form of insecurity oranxiety present when you say,
Angus Ross (39:55):
I would say 100%?
Yeah, perhaps all of the timeand again, It boils down, not
going to sound like a scratchrecord. Everything boils down to
this, it boils down to a lack ofpresence, it boils down to a
disconnection that's born out ofsomeone's mind going elsewhere
and not being present in therelationship. And anxiety is an
easy train to get on in thatrespect, and can be a total
(40:19):
blind spot. And I haveencountered many clients who
have started a coachingexperience, let's say, and be in
complete denial about the factthat they are suffering from
anxiety, what I don't experienceanxiety, I'm not an anxious
person. And then sometime later,that's something that they
(40:43):
become aware of, wow, I neverknew I was anxious. So it's it
is a total blind spot, a blindspot for so many people. Yeah. I
misspoke. And I said it was ablind bought, I think.
Rohini Ross (41:02):
Well, even it was a blind spot, isn't it?
Angus Ross (41:07):
It was a blind spot for me. Certainly, when we got
together, I think I had atremendous amount. And we've
spoken about this too. I had atremendous amount of judgment
for what was evidently youranxiety, which to me was, you
know, depression is another wordthat we can use as a label for
anxiety.
Rohini Ross (41:25):
Well, I think there is slightly different flavor,
but I had both.
Angus Ross (41:29):
Yeah, but they're in the same food group. But I had a
lot of judgment for for youranxiety, okay, we'll call it
anxiety. And that was a totalprojection. Because I, it took
me a long time to realize, yeah,you know, what, I am actually
fundamentally quite an anxiousperson, deep down. And I took a
lot of my thinking veryseriously, and got quite
(41:52):
crippled by it on many anoccasion. But I couldn't
tolerate in you because Icouldn't tolerate it in myself.
And it was unbearable to dealwith, and probably why that was
neros significant conflictbetween us.
Rohini Ross (42:06):
And I think that's exactly the same thing that's
going on with Matteo. He doesn'tknow how to be with his own
experience. And so it's a blindspot to him. But Alicia is
talking to him. I don't reallyquite know what she's doing. So
terrible.
Angus Ross (42:26):
Basically, zips is just basically breathing.
Rohini Ross (42:31):
But that sets him off the edge. Yeah, he can
tolerate any kind of emotionaldemonstration that she shows
because he's so close to that.
Going over I mean, it soundslike he's having panic attacks.
Angus Ross (42:47):
Can I talk about your habit of picking your
fingers?
Rohini Ross (42:49):
Yes, you may talk about that.
Angus Ross (42:51):
So, right, you have this habit of picking her
fingers or cuticles or fingers.
And I can tolerate that. It'sit's actually an actual fact,
it's the sort of perfect weatherweather vane for my state of
mind, is if I am in a good stateof mind, I couldn't care less
basic because she picks upthings or not, she can chew up
to hand off a kid, I'm kidding.
(43:15):
But if I am feeling uptight oranxious, cannot bear it just,
it's like, it's like scraping achalk across a blackboard. It's
just unbearable to me. But it'sbecause I'm anxious. And it's
just a reminder of my anxiety,although I'm not necessarily
conscious of it. The fact thatyou're anxious enough to pick
your fingers, it just reallyhighlights my own anxiety
(43:39):
without really being aware of ityet. So I have absolute refusal
to accept it that behavior inyou. Because I can't tolerate it
in myself classic projection.
101. Right.
Rohini Ross (43:50):
Yeah. So for me, this is huge that he got to the
place of owning that he hasanxiety, and that he sees that.
And that part of the equation,as the two of you discuss here
in the segment, is being able tobe more vulnerable and
transparent about that in hisrelationship with Alicia. And
(44:10):
the second part is for him to beon the learning curve of seeing
how he engages with his anxiousthinking and how that's the
source of his anxiety. Yeah,
Angus Ross (44:22):
I mean, evidently, we are getting to a deeper level
of growth and learning. Yeah,maybe didn't show up in the
intensive. And that's what's sogood about doing the follow up
work. Because these things havea tendency in the real world to
appear. And I think that we havehopefully, helped them get to a
higher level of understandingthat maybe allowed them to
(44:43):
unearth some of these things.
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (44:45):
And the next time you speak with him, the next
clip is from the next session,things have dramatically shifted
for him.
Angus Ross (44:53):
We'll see.
Mateo (45:00):
Things are, are way better than that. And last time
we spoke, I think it was just, Iwas missing that whole. That
whole piece of the pie where youcan openly talk with your
partner being Hey, right Now'snot the time, right? So it's
pretty cool. Everything's beengood. On Friday, we had our
(45:20):
seven year anniversary of whenwe started dating. So we had a
fun weekend, I went to dinnerthe next night, we did a pasta
making class the next day wentto the beach went surfing. And
Angus Ross (45:34):
That sounds great.
Mateo (45:36):
Yeah. I'm really excited.
And it's been really, reallyawesome lately and I being
thankful isn't enough, you knowwhat I mean?
Angus Ross (45:48):
So one might be inclined to believe, based on
details change in tune that heis, he is somewhat capricious
his nature. Because sort of gonefrom a situation where we did
get quickly down into the depthsof despair. And then we're kind
(46:08):
of back where we belong. Maybein our natural state. I guess
it's a case of, you know,what's, what next? What's gonna
happen next?
Rohini Ross (46:20):
I've got that Joe Cocker. You set that up, where
we're where we belong. You won'tserenade me with it?
Angus Ross (46:29):
I will not serenade you with that.
Rohini Ross (46:31):
Oh, well, yes, I agree. I was listening while I
had the Joe Cocker song in myhead. It's a certain, certainly
a big turnaround. And at thispoint, we had had our individual
follow up sessions with Aliciaand Mateo. And the final step
would be to come together andjust debrief the whole intensive
(46:54):
experience, clarify anything andthen be complete. And so it
seemed like we were going alongswimmingly well.
Angus Ross (47:03):
Hard and dry.
Rohini Ross (47:05):
Exactly. So at this point, we were just in the
scheduling phase of figuring outwhen to set up that final group
session. And at least see hiswork required her to do some
travel. And the scheduling tooklonger than normal, rather than,
(47:25):
you know, a couple of weeks. Wehadn't got anything on the
books. And then about a monthafter that conversation that you
just had with Mateo where he'ssaying that, I get this email
from Alicia, Hey, Rohini. Idon't really know how to write
you this email. As I'm not sureif Mateo has spoken to Angus. On
(47:48):
Friday, he came home and verycalmly told me he didn't want to
renew our lease together, anddidn't want to continue forward
with me, which was hard for himto do since we hadn't been in
turmoil. His words, he proceededto completely move out on
Saturday, and I've been anemotional wreck ever since. He
gave me a ton of mixed reasonsthat I can't really tell what is
(48:09):
real and what isn't. Seems likehe finally made the decision of
wanting for us to be overforever, which I deep down
believe is a huge mistake on hispart. It completely pains me to
tell you all of this as I trulyfrom the bottom of my heart.
appreciate all the work andeffort you and Angus attempted
to do for us. I will forever begrateful to you both. I'm so
sorry. This didn't work out. Andit kills me to even say that. I
(48:33):
hope for his sake, he finds thehappiness he seeks. I know for
me once I can get out of thisdepressed time that I will be
okay. I'm sorry to give you thisnews. It pains me more than you
can ever know. I haven't beenable to stop crying or eat since
Friday afternoon. Is this is themost brutal thing I've ever gone
through. Thank you for all thelove and support you've shown me
(48:54):
Alicia
Angus Ross (48:57):
My Goodness me. It's been quite the roller coaster
ride. I mean, my goodness onit's been for us a roller
coaster. Right? That for and forthem. And for her in particular.
Obviously she's really sufferingat this point. And to feel like
everything was so beautifullyback on track. And then and then
(49:21):
I think as as Mateo said earlieron in the podcast, how she jumps
the track must feel like asignificant derailment. And I
can only imagine what she'sgoing through at this point.
devastation, really?
Rohini Ross (49:39):
Yeah, so we instead of having the group session, I
continue working with Alicia andMateo goes AWOL for a period of
time. And there is still more tobe revealed.
Angus Ross (49:54):
There is so listen to this space. Doesn't sound
quite right. Listen to thisspace does it? Does it work? One
would watch this space, if onewas in commercial television.
But in commercial radio? Wouldyou listen to this space? Would
(50:16):
you listen? Listen for thequiet. What would you listen
for? Because he can't go lookingfor it? Can you go listening for
it? I don't know. I amexperiencing a certain amount of
befuddlement around this idea oflistening to the space.
Rohini Ross (50:38):
So you would say watch this space.
Angus Ross (50:40):
You say watch this space. If you're in commercial
television, right? Imagine youwould, I don't know. I've heard
I've heard people say that ontelevision.
Rohini Ross (50:48):
I don't think people say listen to this space,
Angus Ross (50:52):
who just say listen,
Rohini Ross (50:57):
maybe we should just say listen to next week's
episode,
Angus Ross (51:00):
would they say listen, and you might hear
something new. That's it.
Listen, and you might hearsomething new.
Rohini Ross (51:11):
Okay, I will,
Angus Ross (51:15):
That's all I got.
Rohini Ross (51:18):
And don't forget, if you would like to have your
questions answered in the askanything episodes, please send
them in. You can email them toinfo at the rewilders.org, or
you can call for 424-272-6497.
(51:48):
Thank you so much for listeningto Rewilding Love. If you
enjoyed this podcast, please letus know by subscribing on
iTunes. And we would love foryou to leave a review there.
Angus Ross (51:59):
iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who
need help with theirrelationships.
Rohini Ross (52:04):
If you would like to learn more about our work and
our online rewilding community,please visit our website,
therewillders.org
Angus Ross (52:13):
Thanks for listening. Join us next week.
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