EP14: Breaking the Bondage of Shame

**Warning: This episode contains strong graphic language, discussions of sexual situations and it addresses sexual abuse. If you are sensitive to this subject matter, please skip this episode.**

The Rewilders are picking up the pieces after leaving listeners with a total cliffhanger in last week's episode when they had just found out from Alicia that Mateo did want to renew their rental lease. Rohini and Angus continued working with Alicia on her own. After a couple of months pass, Mateo finally reaches out to Angus to talk.

Mateo reveals to Angus painful truths about his past, for which his feelings of shame have kept him from being fully open with Alicia or anyone. Angus normalizes Mateo's emotional experience while expressing empathy and universality. Mateo begins to feel a great sense of relief. Talking about his past and how it still impacts him today proves to be a tremendous weight-off his mind.

After a couple of months apart from Alicia, Mateo feels resolute in wanting to be in a partnership, where he can be whole and honest. He wants to share everything with Alicia, but he expresses concern about what her response might look like. Angus reminds Mateo about his true nature and where his experience of life is really coming from. They discuss the spiritual truths that Mateo embodies regardless of his past, present, or future. And he checks with Mateo on whether he truly wants to be with Alicia.

Want to know how Alicia responds to Mateo after two months apart and intimate revelations are shared? Tune in next week.

This episode explores:

• When we obtain a stronger inner foundation, things we haven't addressed in the past reveal themselves. 
• The conceptual mind is an illusionist.
• Sexuality as a spectrum.
• The prevalence of sexual abuse, and yet the stigma.
• When we bring things out into the open, we annihilate shame.
• Secrets can kill us inside.
• It takes work to keep a secret and it makes us unavailable to partnership.
• Using grit and willpower to avoid facing pain can only last so long.

Show Notes
Resources for victims of sexual abuse: RAINN; NSVRC
Brené Brown Ted Talk: Listening to Shame
Glorious game of life: the spiritual truth that we're all "cut from the same cloth."

Podcast music
Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area. Episode 14 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity.

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org. 

Episode Transcript

Rohini Ross (00:01):
This is Episode 14, Releasing The Bondage of Shame.

(00:49):
We wanted to give you a warningthat this episode discusses the
subject matter of sexual abuse.
And so if you're sensitive tothat subject matter, please
don't listen to the episode.

(02:39):
So we know last episode, we leftyou with a bit of a major
cliffhanger. We were completelyfloored when that happened with
Mateo telling Alicia that hedidn't want to renew their lease
together. As far as we knewthings were going well, the
volatility in the relationshiphad significantly decreased. And

(03:01):
he even said, that wasn't thereason why he was needing this
space. And Alicia was completelyshocked at this point, because
she wasn't expecting that.

Angus Ross (03:12):
Well, you know, you say, we were floored and we were
floored. And I don't even knowif it's worthwhile saying this.
But actually, to be perfectlyhonest, I was really
disappointed. I've alwaysprobably had this secret agenda
that if we're going to do thispodcast, it will be good to see

(03:33):
an article, it would be good tosee a couple ghosts selling off
happily into the sunset. And Ithought we had reached that
point. And on that basis, then Iwill feel like we'd have
probably a more marketableproduct because I do like my
sentimental ending. And this wasanything but the sentimental
ending. I was anticipating. So Idid feel disappointed, as well

(03:57):
as flawed. So I just wanted tosay that just so that, you know,
I don't know why I wouldn't saythat. But I'm just being honest
here.

Rohini Ross (04:05):
So you are not only shocked you were also
disappointed.

Angus Ross (04:09):
Yeah. Because I think I thought wow, you know,
it's great that we managed torecord this arc, you know, of a
couple going from a place ofsheer despair to one of to one I
don't know, obviously notenlightenment per se, but aced.
You know, they looked like theywere back on track and the
relationship was gonna work.
There wasn't an attachment toyou know what this podcast

(04:30):
should look like because I dolike my Hollywood ending. And
that was a Hollywood ending forme to go from divorce papers to
a place where they're getting onlike a house on fire.

Rohini Ross (04:45):
Well, it's not over yet. I know

Angus Ross (04:47):
what the house looks like it's burning again. In a
way. It's not acceptable to me.

Rohini Ross (04:55):
Well, we're just in service to them.

Angus Ross (04:57):
Yes, obviously.

Rohini Ross (04:58):
And so in service to you listeners, we are going
to be condensing a lot of thematerial at this point because
we worked with them over alonger period of time. And so
we're going to take segmentsfrom some of the most salient
sessions and focus on those, butwe will give you an overview in

(05:22):
terms of how things unfolded. Sowith Alicia, when we got that
information, Angus, and I bothsupported her, I think we each
had different sessions with herover the time. And Matteo
dropped out of the picture for aperiod of time.

Angus Ross (05:39):
Yeah, he basically went AWOL without any rhyme or
reason, as far as far as I couldsee, anyway,

Rohini Ross (05:47):
Alicia was very much grateful for the support
that we gave her. And one of thethings that I think is really
important to note is that whenMateo gave Alicia this
information at this point intime, after an intensive, one of
the significant differencesbetween post intensive and pre
intensive is when he didsomething fairly similar to her

(06:10):
before, they continued livingtogether. And she was living in
that really difficult situationof limbo. And when it happened
this time, she was really clearthat that was not workable for
her. And so she held a veryclear boundary. She advocated
for herself, and he moved outimmediately. And so to me, that

(06:31):
really showed how she hadintegrated the empowerment and
was really willing to advocatefor herself and set healthy
boundaries to support her,navigating him, saying that he's
basically not in therelationship anymore.

Angus Ross (06:46):
Yeah. And in retrospect, I think, if I am to
be honest, again, well, I alwayslike to think that I'm being
honest.

Rohini Ross (06:55):
Now, what are you gonna say?

Angus Ross (06:56):
Well, I feel like the whole thing was thoroughly
worthwhile. At this up untilthis point, it looks like the
whole thing is thoroughlyworthwhile, from the point of
view of where her mental healthis, you know, she's got to a
place where she's obviously ableto hold a healthy boundary. And
her self confidence and selfesteem has gone up quite a few

(07:17):
notches. And I think that's aresult of the intensive and the
understanding that we're sharingwith her.

Rohini Ross (07:25):
So after this happened in the sessions with
Alicia, we really supported herin navigating the grief, the the
hurt, the sadness, the anger, wereally held a space for her to
have all of her feelings and tosee the health in that and to
help her take care of herself asshe navigated this time. And as

(07:49):
things unfolded for her. She,even with this happening still
was very kind and compassionatein her regard for Mateo, even if
they weren't going to betogether, she was really
concerned about his mental wellbeing and she didn't feel like
he was okay.

Angus Ross (08:10):
Yeah, I mean, she was a real trooper throughout
this whole experience. Andthroughout, it all, I was just
so impressed by her capacity tosee Mateo's psychological
innocence. And I'm just notreally judging him in the way
that I would have anticipatedher doing so that she was really

(08:31):
able to, to view him and hisbehavior through a lens of
compassion, which I thought wasquite remarkable.

Rohini Ross (08:39):
I did too.

Angus Ross (08:40):
Yeah. And, and as I say, she was just really she was
she was able to really feel herfeelings, be completely
vulnerable, but still maintain avery healthy boundary about what
was acceptable moving forward.
And so hats off to her. And Ithink that really cannot be
stressed enough for me how wellshe held herself and accounted

(09:02):
for herself throughout thatwhole period.

Rohini Ross (09:08):
I agree. And so, over about a two month period,
we supported Alicia navigatingall of this, and she was
starting to have someinteractions with Mateo. But
after a couple of months, hereached out to you, Angus, this

(09:29):
episode really is going to focuson that conversation that you
had with him. And I do feel likethis conversation was possible
as a result of the work that wehad done together. It created a
space of healing that allowedwhat was next within his

(09:49):
consciousness to come forward.

Mateo (09:57):
This is the first time I ever said it, but like, I will I
was, to an extent, like sexuallyabused when I was a kid. Yeah, a
kid that was probably like twoor three years older than I was.
And for me, that caused like alot of confusion and a lot of
like anger and stuff. And Idon't know if it played a part

(10:23):
in our relationship, but I doknow that it's played a part in
my life, which only leads me tobelieve that it did play a part
on Alicia and I's relationshipto the point where like, I've
never told anyone, you'reliterally the first person,
parents don't even know no oneknows. And I never really felt
comfortable talking about it,and then talking about like, my

(10:47):
sexual interests with anyone. Solike, with that being said, I
don't, I don't really feel thatI gave Alicia the fair
opportunity, if that makes senseto really understand who I am
and, and what like I've gonethrough, which only by not doing

(11:09):
that escalated my, my irritationwith whatever she must have been
bitching about whatever, youknow, holding this thing down
inside. And to point, you know,I'm, I'm pretty numb to at least
the sexual experiences thatAlicia and I have shared. And I

(11:32):
think, I think have a pretty bigreason to blame for that, like,
yeah, her bitching, whatever,fucking total turnoff, but I
didn't really let her in anyonein to who I really am. I don't,
I don't know what all thatmeans. I just know that, you
know, I do care for Alicia. AndI feel like I didn't, I didn't

(11:55):
give her the opportunity to seewho I really am, you know, like
what I've been through andstuff. And I told her that I
would talk to you, and notfigure out a game plan to bring
her into the conversation.

Angus Ross (12:16):
So I want to be careful how I address this
particular experience and havingthis conversation with Mateo.
Because I think that a part ofme was actually relieved that
there was some gravitas attachedto the reason as to why he had

(12:36):
gone to a well, two months orwhatever it was. And I feel like
in what he shared, he'dobviously been holding on to
this secret, if you like,throughout the course of his
life. And I think that for themto go through that intensive
experience. And for him to getto such a high level of honesty

(13:00):
and intimacy that that intimacywas once again rekindled. I
think that this probably havingthis on the back burner for all
these years was a real was areal pressure for him to
maintain. And I think thatobviously, on some level, there
was some kind of implosion thatcaused things to go awry again.

(13:26):
But I feel like, you know, asyou said, I feel grateful that
he felt like he could share thiswith me that we had established
enough rapport, to think that hecould be vulnerable in this way.
So it was it was a really quite,you know, in many ways, an
extraordinary conversation. AndI hadn't anticipated having that

(13:48):
conversation. But I wasnevertheless in a sense relieved
that you know, that there was areason of some weight as to why
he had disappeared. And itwasn't just a case of everything
that we had done, all the workwe had done together, had been
for naught. So on that level, Ifelt somewhat reassured.

Rohini Ross (14:10):
I agree that what he's sharing here is a
reflection of greater healthwithin himself. And I think that
this is really common that whenwe have a stronger inner
foundation, things that wehaven't addressed within
ourselves in the pastmisunderstandings, limiting

(14:34):
beliefs, when we have thefoundation to address them, they
reveal themselves when we havethe capacity to deal with them.
And so here he is, with greaterinner strength, ready to let go
of the shame that he's beenholding around this

Mateo (14:55):
The person who, who initially like abused me when I
was younger, his mother reachedout to my mom on Facebook, they
became like friends. I rememberone day my mom told me and she
was like, oh, they're doing sowell and stuff. And I'm
thinking, I'm like, you have nofucking idea. Like what torment
that kid like, placed on mylife, right? Like, I didn't know

(15:16):
if I was gay, I didn't know if Iwas straight. I don't know, if I
was bi, like, I didn't know anyof these things. All I know is
that he put me in a positionthat made me treat relationships
differently in my life, itallowed for what I think I mean,
take it, my mom was also a painin the ass to and very bullying.

(15:38):
But there is a part of me that,that blame this kid for allowing
for me to allow other people toabuse me whether it was verbally
or physically or whatever it mayhave been.

Rohini Ross (15:55):
I'm really touched by how much Mateo trusts you and
is willing to share this withyou the first person that he
really opens up to about this.
And you can really hear how thishas been reverberating in his
consciousness and impacting howhe relates to people. And it's
not surprising that he struggleswith intimacy and vulnerability.

Angus Ross (16:23):
Yeah, and I found it really touching that, that he
did trust me enough to sharesomething that was obviously
extremely personal. Andobviously, one enormous
opportunity to get that, youknow, what is that? What is that

(16:44):
old platitude a problem sharedis a problem halved? Is that
what it is? But you know, thatjust completely minimize is
really what was something thathas been really plaguing him for
many years. But yeah, I do feelhonored, really. But he would

(17:06):
feel that he could trust meenough to, to be so vulnerable.

Rohini Ross (17:11):
And in this space, it's his innate health coming
forward. It's his wisdom thatsaying it's time to not keep
this to himself anymore. It'shis wisdom that saying, he needs
to have a shift around this, inorder to be in the relationship
in the way that he wants to be,or at least to even have the

(17:33):
possibility of being in hismarriage in the way that he
wants to be.

Angus Ross (17:38):
Yeah, and I would like to think that the intensive
format really allowed him to getreacquainted with his wisdom,
which is probably led him tothis moment, where he feels like
yeah, I need to get this off mychest once and for all.

Mateo (17:52):
I mean, look, I've been confused for so long, like, not
really knowing. And I mean, I'vekind of come to learn that. I
don't identify with, you know,bisexual or, or, like being 100%

(18:18):
straight. Yeah, I prefer aheterosexual relationship. But,
you know, there's a term that'sbeen thrown around lately.
That's pansexual, which you're,you're attracted to
personalities. And I thinkthat's been true for me as well.

(18:43):
I'm not like, Yo, man, that guyis hot. But like, there are
people out there that I'm like,attracted to. Not really on like
a, like a Oh, I want to fuck onor something like that. But
like, no, yeah, that person ispretty cool. So I don't even
know if sharing that with Aliciawould be like right to do

(19:04):
because I'm really concernedabout this. Like, like, I want
to be 100% honest with her andgive this thing a chance. I'm
concerned with the guilt thatshe could place on me due to all
of this meaning, like, fact thatI've had sexual experiences
since her and I separated. Couldbe the guilt that like, you

(19:25):
know, she gets angry one day andbrings up the fact that I've
been with a guy before, right?
Like I just don't want thatreally hindering our
relationship in the way that sheviews me.

Rohini Ross (19:48):
It's really common for people with a history of
sexual abuse, for there to beconfusion around sexual
interests sexual identitu. Andthe way that Mateo is speaking
about it here is representativeof his struggle with that, and

(20:09):
how to come to terms withinhimself with the fluidity that
he experiences around sexualattraction. And I do think it's
a good thing within, you know, alot of our society not
everywhere, but at least thereis some forward movement in

(20:29):
terms of people being more openminded to the fluid nature of
sexual attraction. And that it'snot just a binary, well, I'm
heterosexual or I'm gay. There'sa whole continuum of sexual
interest that I think mostpeople fall somewhere on that

(20:52):
continuum. And we're notnecessarily at one end of that
spectrum or the other.

Angus Ross (20:58):
Yeah, I think that in a sense, how lucky are we to
stumble up, stumble upon someonewho's willing to be so honest,
about a theme, which I thinkreally now is very apropos for
these times? And it's a worthysubject to explore.

Rohini Ross (21:18):
And I hope that is really helpful to him as well.

Angus Ross (21:20):
Yeah, no, absolutely.

Rohini Ross (21:22):
And then the other piece that stands out to me, and
what he's saying here is, howfearful he is that this is going
to get thrown back in his face.
And I think that is a reflectionof the amount of shame, he still
experiences around the fact thathe's been with a man or a boy.
And that that is really weighingon him still.

Angus Ross (21:49):
Yeah, and that's just a feature of these times,
and the stigma that's attachedto those kind of relationships
and ways of being and howwonderful it is to be able to
have a conversation with someonewho's willing to be so open
about it. I think that'swonderful.

Mateo (22:18):
Really, the first question I've ever told this to,
I don't know how it's received.
I know in this day and age, likepeople are, you know, okay to
talk about these things. But forme, it's, it's like, it's really
weird. It's like, Here, I havethis conservative girl. And yet,
the guy that you married hasdone some pretty fucking
outrageous shit with some dude,you know what I mean?

Angus Ross (22:42):
First and foremost, I literally have no judgment on
this whatsoever. So I want youto feel perfectly comfortable,
you know, I, I mean, I was I, Igot I was sexually abused. You
know, I was, I was about 12years of age. And I was in a
Sailing Club, and this guy wasthe guy who was in charge of it
all. And you know, as far as Iknow, he's actually he spent

(23:03):
some time in jail in England,for abusing other kids. Luckily,
I didn't get I wasn't too muchon the receiving end of that a
lot of other kids were, I waskind of mildly abused,
interfered with, it wasn't like,you know, it didn't really go
much further than that. So, youknow, and I've had friends, and
I've worked with people who'vehad this experience. So it's

(23:24):
nothing to be ashamed of, in anyway, shape, or form. It's kind
of like, whatever we want tomake up about being our past
experience with sexual abuse orhow it's affected us. It's kind
of that's just those are thestories that we tell us with our
conceptual mind beyond that, ona spiritual level, you know, if

(23:46):
two people love each other, thatcan be enough. I mean, you may
have desires in that in thatway. But it's kind of like a
guess at this point, you have toreally decide whether, you know,
you and Alicia want to betogether. And that's really the
important point. And, you know,maybe she is conservative, but

(24:07):
you know, at a at a morephilosophical, on a more
philosophical level, on a morespiritual level, she should be
able to understand all this,because it's kind of like it's
part of, you know, like, we getourselves involved in things and
it's really, you know, it's,there's a level of psychological
innocence to it all. So Ilistened to that. I don't know,

(24:33):
I don't know what's coming upfor me and how I would
articulate the feeling that I'mexperiencing, but there's a
little bit of shame for me, justin the way that in that
interaction with Mateo for me,too, I think, on some level, I
don't know I follow. I feel likeI was a little bit superficial
because on one level, I'm tryingto sort of share an experience

(24:56):
that I went through to perhapsmake him feel better about what
he went through. And, and, and Ifeel like I was really
trivializing my experience bysaying that, you know, I was

(25:17):
mildly interfered with, Whensexual abuse and sexual abuse,
and whether, you know, howeveryou want to define that mildly
interfered with I was sexuallyabused. And there's a, there's a
gravity to that really I shouldnot laugh off or say that it was

(25:41):
mild interference, it wasinterference, and it was
completely unacceptable. So, youknow, I feel like, I guess for
me, that just proves how there'ssuch a stigma around being the
victim of sexual abuse in thisway, because evidently, I feel a

(26:02):
little bit uncomfortable abouttalking about it. And, you know,
there is a lot of emotion forme around this. And I feel like,
I didn't match his level ofauthor, I didn't match his level
of authenticity. And I guess Ifeel a little bit ashamed about

(26:23):
that. Now listening back to thatsegment.

Rohini Ross (26:29):
When I, when I heard it, I just heard that you
were, you know, doing your bestto let him know, he wasn't
alone. And when I listened toyou, now I can really hear the
the pain and the hurt that issurfacing up around what
happened to you as well.

Angus Ross (26:47):
Yeah. You know, there's some, there's not much
more to say other than I guess,I guess it's taken me by
surprise, as much as I was takenby surprise by what Mateo shared
in that conversation. You know,I've guess I'm now taken by

(27:12):
surprise, by the level ofsentiment that I feel now,
reflecting on what I wentthrough an hour, you know, I've
just sort of probably swept itunder the rug for all these
years and not really addressedit in a way where I've attached
a great deal of meaning to it onthe level of being, this is not
acceptable, this is really notacceptable. And it's very easy

(27:37):
to sort of pass it off, as just,you know, mildly interfered with
when it was, you know, it wascompletely inappropriate. And
that's, you know, that'ssomething to to be addressed.

Rohini Ross (27:52):
Yeah. And I think what's important to note here,
too, is just how common thiskind of abuse is,

Angus Ross (27:59):
Yeah I know, it really seems like it is
extremely common.

Rohini Ross (28:03):
And we are definitely going to in the show
notes, put resources for people,if you're needing any support
around this, we really encourageyou to not deal with us alone,
not to keep the secret. And toreally allow yourself to be
supported and navigatingsomething like this.

Angus Ross (28:21):
Yeah, that would be great.

Rohini Ross (28:23):
And, you know, I don't even know if I've told you
about this Angus, I don't eventhink it's come up. But I
remember when I was inelementary school, there was a
girl in our neighborhood, whowanted to play sex games. And I

(28:44):
felt really uncomfortable anddidn't want to but, you know,
felt pressured into it anddidn't know how to say no. And
fortunately, for me, I managedto sort of find ways to not be
alone with her. And then, whenwe met up as a group, the, you

(29:06):
know, the neighborhood girlsthat would hang out together.
When there was a group of ustogether, she then wanted to,
you know, play the game. Itwasn't just me that she was
trying to play those games withshe was playing and when the
other girls and none of us weretalking about it. I never told
my mom, I still haven't told herI don't even think I mentioned
this to you. So, you know, it'sinteresting how we just sort of

(29:27):
put these things aside. But Iremember when we were in the
group, I was able to just sortof make a game of it where we
wouldn't do that. And she wouldget really mad, frustrated with
me, but it actually stopped. Ithappening to all of us at that

(29:49):
point. But there's just so manyways that this can come up in
people's lives in differentsituations and because of the
stigma on it, it isn't talkedabout, and then there's a
weight. Yeah, that gets carriedif we're holding judgment
against ourselves, I think formyself, because I felt maybe

(30:15):
somewhat empowered that I wasable to avoid it. There was I
didn't feel that there was a tonof weight. But the situation
here is I'm listening to itreminded me of it. But it's
interesting that I still didn'ttell my mom, I didn't tell other
adults in my life. And so Ithink one of the biggest healing

(30:36):
opportunities is to havetransparency about this. So it's
something that children can feelcomfortable telling adults about
when it's happening, so thatthere's less of a chance for
them to take it on themselves asif it's their fault.

Angus Ross (30:50):
Yeah, I guess with Mateo he's been dealing with
this pressure cooker for years.
And now he wants to probably inhis relationship with Alicia is
to get to a new level ofintimacy, and that will involve
being able to share somethingthat he's haven't been having to
hang on to, because of thosevery stigmas.

Rohini Ross (31:15):
Yeah, and in addition to sharing this with
her, he also has some otherinformation to share with her
too. Yeah.

Angus Ross (31:39):
So the other thing that I guess I imagine is is in
play here is there's probablybeen a high level of self
judgment. I mean, based on thefact that you've kept it to
yourself all these years. Andyou know, from that self
judgment comes the idea thatYeah, well, she's is not going
to handle this, what is shegoing to think of me if I tell
her any of the giver, you know,sharing this information with

(31:59):
her? So in a sense, it's kind oflike, I mean, I hope it does
feel like to you that you know,it feels good to be able to say
this out loud, because at theend of the day, I mean, for me,
it's, I hope it doesn't soundflippant, but it's not a big I
mean, you know, I can see howpeople would think it was a big
deal, but it's kind of like wemake things into a really big

(32:20):
deal. Yeah, made it into a hugedeal.

Mateo (32:22):
I'm not saying it. Like, I'm not kidding, like, you asked
me a week ago, and I'm and I'mlike, like, yeah, it's a big
fucking deal saying right now,it's like, Yeah, I got sexually
abuse, turned me into some sortof a freak for a bit. Like, I
might be into like, some crazysexual ship. I'm in like, more
heterosexual than anything. Butyeah, sure, whatever, judge me

Angus Ross (32:47):
Once we kind of like allow the beast out of the cage,
which is not a very good analogyI accept. But in a sense, it's
kind of like, once we kind ofnormalize it and see that, how
we kind of makes such a big dealout of things. Once we stopped
doing that. Is this such a levelof freedom for ourselves?

(33:08):
Because we can see how it'sjust, it doesn't have to have
such a grip on us. Like, like,kind of, like, keeping it a
secret made it a much biggerdeal than it actually was? Yeah.
And actually, that will take itstoll. So

Mateo (33:26):
I feel like it's killed me inside for years. And, I
mean, there. I mean, I wassuicidal for the longest time.
And yeah, there was otheroutside factors that like, you
know, kind of help with that.
But I feel like this keepingthis didn't allow me to explore
life with the confidence that Ishould have, you know, and I
don't know, just it feelsliberating. Just like even

(33:49):
saying it like, I don't evengive a fuck if I walk in my
roommates asked me like, I don'teven mind telling them. You know
what I mean? Like, yeah. Go intothe car, cuz I need fucking 100%
privacy, right? Because I'mstill kind of like, like, now
it's like, dude, yeah, this iswhat happened. Give me shit.
Yeah.

Angus Ross (34:09):
What's kind of cool, certainly through the lens of
this understanding is like, whenwe see how people and myself
included, you know, we like wemake such a big deal out of
things. And then we keep thesesecrets and keep them to
ourselves. And it's kind of it'sonly for us, it's only we're the
only ones who really think it'sa big deal. Well, I don't know

(34:30):
how Alicia is going to react.
But I mean, I have to say thatonce we follow our wisdom, so
much of you know, what we thinkis a big deal. I mean, you may,
um, you know, you may may enterback into a marital relationship
with Alicia, but I mean, thefact that you've kind of,
you're, you know, you you allowyourself to come to peace with

(34:51):
this and come to terms withthis. It's part of who you are
part of the conceptual mindednarrative. It's kind of like, it
loses is its power in a way yourfollow your wisdom

Mateo (35:04):
for Oh, such like a closet fucking freak of, of
sexuality and, you know, like Isaid literally like escaping
anywhere to go throw a beat realquick like, and, you know, the
idea of like having, you know,three songs and stuff like this
was always on now it's justlike, I really don't i don't
care, you know, like, yeah, youknow what I would like to do

(35:26):
something different sexually butwith with my partner and it
doesn't necessarily meanbringing other people in. That's
not what I want, I want anexperience with my partner and
for them to be okay with it forthem to enjoy for me to enjoy,
like, whatever and to enjoy therelationship and the love. Like
that's, that's what I want. And,again, I didn't I didn't give it

(35:47):
a chance because I wasn't 100%honest.

Angus Ross (35:55):
So I want to be absolutely clear. In listening
to that segment, for me, I feellike it's it could seem as
though I'm sort of trivializingthe experience, like it's not a
big deal, because it isabsolutely a big deal. The abuse
that he was on the receiving endwas a big deal. That abuse that

(36:17):
I was on the receiving end wasthe big deal. I would like to
think that what I was trying tosuggests was that what is a
bigger, what is a big deal, andperhaps a bigger deal. And the
way that we hold this inside isour is our concern and worry
about what other people willthink and how they will judge
us. And then we have to click,then we have to keep this dark

(36:40):
secret to ourselves and notshare it with the world. And
that becomes a high pressuresituation, that is a very big
deal. But the fact is, is that alot of people have had this
experience. And also a lot ofpeople have decided that Yeah, I
don't want to share this withthe world for fear of being
judged.

Rohini Ross (36:59):
And I also want to acknowledge that because we
can't share the whole episode,I'm sharing clips, so it doesn't
have the whole context withinthe clip as to how you set that
up in the in the session. So itwas clear in the session that
you weren't trivializing hisexperience that you were really
helping him see that he doesn'tneed to be defined by this

(37:22):
abuse, that it isn't somethingthat he has to make mean
anything about himself and hisworth and his value as a human
being. It is an event thathappened in his life. But it
isn't a big deal in the sense ofit doesn't have to define who he
is now.

Angus Ross (37:42):
So any apparent insensitivity would be down to
your creative editing?

Rohini Ross (37:47):
Yes, it is. And for me, what's really important
about this section is looking atthe role that shame plays in
this whole scenario. And thatBren Brown has a brilliant TED
Talk. And we'll put that in theshow notes as well. So people

(38:10):
can watch it because I think shedoes a beautiful job of making
the distinction between guiltand shame, and also showing how
toxic shame is. And one of thethings that prevents shame from
being able to exist is when webring things out into the open
when we don't keep it toourselves when we bring it into
the light. And that's one of themost healing things we can do is

(38:34):
to annihilate shame in that way.

Angus Ross (38:38):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's a conversation that I guess
right from the outset was thissort of I was sensing the the
relief in Mateo, that finally Ican actually put this out there
on the table for all of us tosee, particularly for, what's

(39:00):
her name, particularly forAlicia.

Rohini Ross (39:06):
Yeah. And so this is this is him reclaiming his
life back. This is himreclaiming himself. This is him
letting go of judgments thathe's held against himself and
saying, Hey, I'm good enough andI don't need to hold back or be
ashamed of who I am or what'shappened to me. Like I really

(39:26):
hear that and where he's comingfrom,

Angus Ross (39:28):
ya know, it was really empowering to hear him
talk and that thing waswonderful.

Mateo (39:47):
Since Alicia and I separated, I've actually had
like three separate occasionslike sexual experiences and, and
one of them actually, I won'teven consider a sexual
experience because that girljust had some daddy issues and
just wanted to slap the share tosomeone, but it's very, like,
kind of I wouldn't say hardcoreshit, but like, definitely some

(40:10):
shit that I've never triedbefore but always was interested
in and very, very, like sexuallyfrustrated that I couldn't
experience those things. And Icouldn't be open about it
because first off, I'm kind ofembarrassed and ashamed of what
happened to me kind ofembarrassed and ashamed of, you

(40:34):
know, having these these wants.
And, and I'm not sure. Like, Iwant to be honest with Alicia,
if we're going to give this ago, right? If I'm gonna, we're
gonna try to get together like,I want to be 100% honest, not
sure I really want to share,like, or answer questions on who

(40:56):
I did what with but you know, Ijust, I don't know. I don't know
how she's gonna receive it. Shemight, you know, think I'm just
full of shit or whatever. Butobviously, she's not going to be
happy. You know that I have hadexperiences since we separate.

(41:17):
It was strictly sexual. It wasnever an emotional thing for me.
Actually, I started going downthe path just trying to figure
out like, how do people like dothat stuff? You know what I
mean? Like, what's the safe wayto practice it? Like, whatever.
But I did have real sexualintercourse with to seven

(41:40):
people. I don't know what thatmeans for everything. I don't
know if she's ever gonna forgiveme for it. In my perfect world.
She hears this. She sympathizesis kind of angry. to a point
where she can overcome theanger. And it not drift back
into our relationship when youknow when she's angry. You know,

(42:04):
I don't I don't want that tocome in, like, Oh, you fucking
cheated on me or whatever,right? Like, to me, I didn't, I
didn't we were separated. Thiswasn't an emotional investment I
made in anyone who's purelyphysical. And I used it as a
mechanism for me to learn aboutmyself and not overcome some of

(42:24):
the notice, say, like, some ofthe wants or confusion that I've
had. The people that I I waswith, it's not like I met them
on the side of the street or ata bar and like that, I actually
seek these people out and theywere, you know, quote, unquote,

(42:47):
like professionals, right?
They're in the fucking hookers,but they're there. Like,
there's, they specialize in. Andone part and it's, like, BDSM
like, it's like, dominatrix typeshit. I don't think I had too
much leather strapped to me. Butyeah, so fucking weird shit.

(43:09):
Which I didn't mind. But I'dwant it to be with a partner.
You know what I mean? Likesomeone that I'm emotionally
invested with. But I was talkingto this girl, this girl and I
was just telling her, like thisstuff, and I felt no shame. And
I just kind of was like, Fuck,like, Why couldn't I have been
this open with Alicia like, itcould have probably, like,
changed a lot of differentthings, you know?

(43:32):
Cuz, once I started becomingless sexually driven towards
Aliciaand like, the monotony oflike the same shit, you know, I
became like, this fucking pornaddict that, you know, is like
trying to sneak in everymasturbation session that he
could watching some like crazyshit. And then I'd come home and

(43:53):
I would have zero stamina forAlicia and it really placed a
burden. And I mean, like, andone time she was like, I can't
believe you don't want to havesex with me. It's like you're
gay or something. Right? And Iwas just like, Fuck, like, I
don't know, I don't know what'sgoing on. Right? But I feel that
this level of honesty issupposed to be had within within

(44:19):
a relationship. And I didn't Ididn't bring that to the table,
which left a lot off the table.
I just don't know how it's gonnabe received. I don't know if the
girls ever gonna be able to getover a gig Forgive me like, I
just don't know. But I do knowthat. No, she she definitely
wants to be in a relationship.

(44:40):
She wants the marriage to workout. But I've also come to
realize like if I'm if I want tobe in this relationship, like I
want to be in a relationshipthat's 100% honest

Rohini Ross (45:00):
With what Mateo is sharing here, you can hear how,
by keeping this a secret, itprevented him from being able to
explore sexually in the way thathe wanted to within his
relationship with Alicia. And itseems more understandable than

(45:22):
the impetus for him to need abreak, because he was having to
keep all of this inside, and notable to enjoy the sexual aspect
of the relationship because ofthat. And so on this time of
separation, where he did allowhimself to explore these areas,

(45:43):
it was through that explorationthat he then realized that he
didn't want to let go of thelove and intimacy he has with
Alicia, that he didn't want thetwo worlds to be separate. And
to me, that's part of him,integrating all of this within
his own consciousness and tryingto find a way to piece things
together. And understandably sonow, he's worried that maybe

(46:06):
he's gone too far. And with whathe's done the there's
irreconcilable damage done interms of the relationship.

Angus Ross (46:15):
Yeah, very well said. I think that it would
occur to me that he's obviouslyhaving to hold on to this, what
he probably feels is this darksecret for all these years. And
as all along wanted to sort ofbe be out, you know, have it out

(46:37):
there in the open, and not haveto maintain this level of
secrecy. So the acting out, andI guess we can call it acting
out in terms of his liaisons,that's, that's him being able to
let off some steam, letting offa little bit of that pressure.
And really all through it all.
The pressure is coming throughthat lack of honesty that

(47:00):
obviously he now wants to have arelationship which is completely
transparent, and will be sofreeing for him. But there was
nevertheless, without thattransparency, there was a need
to find some sort of release forthe feelings that he'd been
having to maintain for all theseyears, it reached reached a
critical mass.

Rohini Ross (47:22):
And I don't think I would describe his behavior as
acting out behavior. I thinkthat he was exploring his sexual
interests. What Why do you callacting out?

Angus Ross (47:35):
Or maybe Yeah, I guess acting out implies this
sort of judgment around it beingnot okay. I think thank you for
picking me that picking uppicking up on that. I feel like
I don't know, I feel like it wasa case of him feeling like he
needed to express himself in away where he was looking for an
outlet to feel to feel like hewasn't having to hold all this

(48:00):
inside. I feel like thatprobably ultimately, what he's
looking for is to live an honestand authentic life. And if he
could do that with his partner,that was going to always be a
problem. So he's going to lookfor expressions to do that
elsewhere.

Rohini Ross (48:19):
And that, ultimately, what he says here is
he does want to be able toexplore his sexuality with
Alicia. And I also want to pointout that, you know, when he's
describing the BDSM, you canhear, even in what he's saying

(48:39):
that there's a certain amount ofstigma still attached to wanting
to explore sexuality in thatway. And I think it's really
important for people tounderstand, in general, that
there's so much range of whatnormal healthy sexuality looks

(49:02):
like. And there's so muchjudgment and stigma that makes
it looks like there's only avery narrow path that's
acceptable. And so I'm hopingthat in just him being able to
speak about it, it takes thatstigma off of it for him, and

(49:22):
just here and having thisconversation in an educational
way. I really want to, you know,make that point that we need to
really open up our mind in termsof recognizing what's okay as
long as there's two consentingadults involved, and no one's
harmed, that there's lots ofways that are healthy to explore

(49:46):
sexuality.

Angus Ross (49:47):
Yeah. It's almost like there's this sort of
unwritten rule book or, orserious code of ethics that
really at the end of the dayjust boils down to, to culture
and what what is Considered acultural norm? And who's who is
the? Who is the referee? As faras that's concerned, no one

Mateo (50:16):
is me thinking about this and thinking, it's the reason
why this could have hindered myrelationship. Is that me
fighting like looking aheadversus like storing? You know
what I mean? It's kind of like,

Angus Ross (50:27):
yeah, yeah, in a sense, like, it's really you
need to look in the direction ofthe, whatever those beautiful
things that come forward, whenyou when you get yourself back
on, you know, looking in thedirection of well being and
looking in the direction of yourinnate well being, is kind of,
we're all looking for that. Iwork in the recovery community

(50:50):
quite a bit. And all those guysare getting into trouble with
drugs and alcohol. But they'rejust innocently looking for well
being, they're looking for a wayto self soothe, because they've
got so wrapped up in theirconceptual mind, that they kind
of lost the plot, they'relooking in the direction of
their conceptual mind, they'renot looking in the direction of
their spirituality. They're notlooking in the direction of that

(51:13):
innate well, being that in thisuniverse is always looking for
balance and harmony. When kidscome into the world, as infants,
you know, so many I hear so manypeople say, how infants are so
close to God in their innocence,they're kind of close to God.
But in a sense, it's kind oflike that close to that well
being because you come into theworld, and all they get to

(51:35):
experience with their fivesenses, because their conceptual
mind is not developed is theiressential nature. It's like,
Whoa, whoa, whoa. And they'rejust out there. They're just
like being well being. And thenwe get information, and we get
experiences, and we getchallenges. And we start
building up this little pictureinside our head of our
conceptual mind and, you know,approach to life. And we lose

(51:58):
touch, we lose touch with ourspirituality. I mean, in a
sense, it's kind of like thisworld is in a spiritual crisis.
And I don't mean spiritualcrisis in a woowoo way, I mean,
spiritual crisis, and like,we're forgetting who we are. And
we're like, spinning all thesetales, through our conceptual
mind, because it's such anamazingly powerful tool.

Mateo (52:19):
Yeah, I just, I totally understand what you're saying. I
just have to be able to acceptmy truth and be okay with it,
and then just be spiritual, Iguess about it. You know,

Angus Ross (52:38):
there's no, there's no way of knowing how she's
going to react. I, you know, youcan't forecast that. But I mean,
I could, and I would like toimagine. And she's in a settled
state. But she could see itthrough, you know, if she see if
she can get her mind settles andget beyond her conceptual mind,

(53:00):
and all her standards thatsurround that, then on that
level, you know, we can forgiveor not have judgment about him.
But why would we have judgmentaround that everything that
you've told me, is coming from aplace of psychological
innocence?

Rohini Ross (53:21):
What I really appreciate you pointing him to
here is the recognition that theway that he's going to have new
understanding come in is notgoing to be through looking in
the direction of trying tofigure things out or trying to
understand something or moreabout what happened, that you're

(53:42):
pointing him to look in thedirection of where his inner
safety actually lies, where hecan truly find well being. And
that's what interrupts theautomatic thoughts that come in
related to safety and danger.
And they can be rewired, theycan be shifted, we're not stuck
with them. And what shifts themis when we have a new experience

(54:05):
that completely contradicts theold framework that we've been
working from. And that's what Ihear him seeing more deeply here
is that the way he has beenliving his life, and the way
that he's been trying to protecthimself, he's seeing how that
doesn't work, and how it limitshis experience of intimacy and

(54:26):
connection and closeness, whichis what he really wants. And so
you're helping him to recognizethat place of safety and well
being that he has within that iscompletely untouched by anything
that's ever happened to him. Andthat by having an experiential
knowing of that, that shifts theold programming.

Angus Ross (54:53):
Yeah, there would have been a great opportunity
for me in that conversation toshare that Einstein quote. Well,
I think it goes something Thinkalong the lines, you can't solve
a problem at the same level ofconsciousness that created it.
So maybe I don't know how good ajob I did. But what I was trying
to convey to him was that to getbeyond the conceptual mind is a

(55:16):
cap laboring that point. Andtrying to find a way find a way
into his impersonal mind, wherethat's a much better resource
for him to access his wisdom andintuition. And get perspective.
But we have a tendency as humanbeings to get too enamored with
all the water under the bridgethat we store away in our

(55:38):
conceptual rational mind. Andit's easy to fall into that
pattern. And, and there's acertain amount of safety, we can
convince ourselves that you knowthat we're comfortable there,
when in actual fact, that'swhere we experience stress and
anxiety, to look to ourimpersonal mind and look for
intuition is key.

Rohini Ross (56:00):
Yeah. And it's in the impersonal. It's in that
space within, where we connectwith our deeper feelings and our
deeper knowing of who we are,that we truly get to experience
that innate well being thatyou're pointing to. And that's
healing. Yeah.

Angus Ross (56:29):
Well, I mean, I think the important thing is, if
you're clear that you I mean,you're clear that you actually
want to be with this woman. Imean, I know that there are this
criteria attached to that, likeyou want to be with this woman,
but you don't want to you don'treally like the crazy. And it

(56:50):
seems like there's also the fearthat the crazy now could, could
use some of this informationagainst you. But in a sense,
really, I mean, it just like,none of that really matters. And
in a way, it's kind of like, Imean, you know, what we're
always pointing to is that, youknow, that the relief, you know,

(57:14):
with people who get intodifficulty and relationship, but
just being able to see thattheir partner is just getting
caught up, they're just gettingcaught up in their conceptual
mind. And they're making a bigdeal out of something because
they've got themselves into alow mood, but where things start
to shift is when we stoppedtaking that personally. So in a

(57:34):
sense, I know that's a big deal.
And it's a hard nut to swallow.
But it's kind of like that'swhere the shift will start to
happen is like when we stoppedtaking each other's low moods
personally, and the things thatwe say when we're in a low mood.
So definitely, you know, that'sthe case with Rohini and I, you
know, we get upset from time totime, of course, we get into low
moods, we're human. But we don'ttend to take how we show up with

(57:58):
a low mood particularlyseriously, because it's just the
products of our conceptual mind.
But beyond that, there's aspiritual connection. So you
have a spiritual connection withAlicia, you love her. Obviously,
you want to be with her, or elsewe wouldn't be having this
conversation now. But it's kindof like all of the rest of it is

(58:19):
just a product of our conceptualmind. It's a product of our
thinking. It's like a narrativethat we spun. It's almost like I
had a conversation with a clienttoday, where we had we we talked
about the conceptual mind andhow there's, you know, it's
almost like there's anillusionist in control. That is
like this like illusionary islike a figure like an

(58:42):
illusionist, like a magician.
That kind of was like, trying tosort of like, which you could
say was our ego is trying tosort of pull us back into that
way of thinking or pointless ina direction that really is just
feeding the illusion, feedingthe narrative. But beyond that,

(59:03):
you know, there's anintelligence behind life. It's
always steering us towards wellbeing like, so for argument's
sake. I don't know where youwhere you fall on the spiritual
plane. I'm not a religiousperson. So I see this is how I
see it. So if you look at evenat an atomic level, subatomic
particles, the way that thosesubatomic particles configure

(59:25):
themselves create atoms, and theatoms then go on to create
elements. How are thosesubatomic particles configure
themselves in such specificways? And yes, the science part
of the scientific community willsay, well, that's a random
accident. That to me is almostlunacy, to say that those
subatomic particles configurethemselves in such a specific

(59:48):
way to create the buildingblocks of life. There has to be
an intelligence. Not only doesit have to be an intelligence
that's kind of guiding that, butit also suggests that
intelligence is looking forbalance and harmony.
So that's a part of you, that'sa part of me, that's a part of
everything that makes up matterin this universe is looking for

(01:00:08):
balance and harmony. So we couldsay that that's the spiritual
plane that on one level, thereis a spiritual, a spiritual
dimension, for one a better wayof defining it. And then we are
blessed as human beings to havea conceptual mind. And the
conceptual mind is just amachine that makes up shit, make
some really good shit up. And weneed a conceptual mind, it's how

(01:00:31):
we experience the world that welive in. But it's not the full.
It's not the full package,there's something beyond the
conceptual mind. There's,there's a spiritual conversation
to be had here. Because there'san intelligence behind life,
universal intelligence, somepeople will put a label of God
on that. I know, I'm notinclined to do that, because

(01:00:51):
it's such a loaded, loaded thingto do. But there is an
intelligence for me, and in thatintelligence, always looking for
balance and harmony, like a seedthat germinates and, and a
sapling, under concrete findsits way through that crack in
the concrete towards the lighthow we have, when we cut our
arm, the body knows how torepair itself. There's something

(01:01:12):
driving this crazy thing calledlife that's looking for that,
that balance and harmony lookingtowards well being. And that's
the direction, I feel. That'sthe only direction we need to
look in, particularly when weget caught up. So if you're
getting caught up about what'shappened, you're getting caught
up in what happened to you inthe past. In a sense, you're

(01:01:33):
like, you're looking only towhat you've got stored away and
your conceptual mind. Likethat's The Illusionist, like
trying to pull you in trying tomake sense of it all. But to
look in the other direction,that's where we see that we're
all kind of connected, we're allone you're looking on one level,
you're looking at Alicia fromthrough that lens, where

(01:01:54):
everything looks like, yeah, Iwant this relationship to work,
because this relationship lookslike well being on one level.
But the only thing that's reallygetting in the way of that is
what you're building up togetherwith your conceptual mind.
Spiritually, you're drawn toAlicia, because you, you know,
there's a connection there. Butthere's this whole other thing

(01:02:17):
going on up here. On a heart,your heart is drawn to Alicia,
but your mind is kind of like inthis state of confusion. And
it's kind of like you're goingbetween the two camps.
Otherwise, I imagine we wouldn'tbe having this conversation, I
imagine is something that's,that's drawing you to Alicia,

(01:02:40):
which is going to be a lot moreto do with. Well, you know, with
your heart and the formlessnature of being human, then then
anything that you've got storedaway in your intellect. Like
you've got a very powerfulanalytical mind, you know,
obviously, from all theconversations we had, I can, I
can see that that's somethingthat serves you well. And it's

(01:03:04):
really powerful. But it's notthe whole picture. So you're
trying to make sense of this allwith your with your intellect.
But it's beyond your intellect.

Rohini Ross (01:03:28):
As a reminder, for those listening, we are having
to really condense the pace atwhich things are unfolding. So
you're only getting snippets.
And we have moved quite quickly,quickly along from looking at
Mateos experience of the sexualabuse. And now, Angus, you're
addressing with him, his desireto be back in the marriage with

(01:03:52):
Alicia. And I think based on allof the work that you and I had
been doing with Elisa duringthis time, there's a certain
amount of protectiveness that wehave here in terms of not
wanting, wanting for him to jerkher around one more time. Seems
like she's been through a lot interms of him being in and out.
And so when he's saying he wantsto be with her, but he only

(01:04:16):
wants to be with the same her.
You're really calling him out onthat and recognizing that if he
wants to be in the marriage, ifit's even possible if he's even
going to be open to that, thathe needs to learn to not take
things personally. And in thenext few segments that keeps
getting emphasized. But I thinkit's something that we all need

(01:04:38):
to learn. And it's definitelysomething that Mateo is still
letting it sink in and has moreto see.

Angus Ross (01:04:47):
Yeah, definitely.
And isn't it interesting how atthis point, with Alicia, who is
really kind of the poster childof seeing her partner's
psychological innocence, he isstruggling with that. And so I'm
having to do everything again inmy power to try and sort of
press that point that that willbe, that will be pivotal in

(01:05:09):
terms of how they can remain andstay together. As soon as he
starts to see that, he can dropthose standards and expectations
around how she's supposed toshow up. And take on board, what
I'm saying about looking in thedirection of his impersonal

(01:05:29):
mind, which is the field ofintuition and wisdom, and get a
little bit more aware of thepersonal mind that will be
really attached to water underthe bridge, really attached to
standards and expectations basedon his programming and

(01:05:49):
conditioning. And understandthat that's not going to be his
most valuable resource. His mostvaluable resource is intuitive,
impersonal mind, which as I'vesaid is not you know, that's the
seed of universal wisdom. Andthat's the direction to look in.

Rohini Ross (01:06:06):
I think that's really key for all of us to see,
that what helps us not takethings personally, is having
more grounding in the impersonalvantage point. And the
impersonal vantage point is thatspace that we have within us
that is open hearted, and kindand generous and loving. And it

(01:06:26):
is not a doormat, it is notweak. To me, it's the most
powerful state of consciousnessthat we have the loving state.

Angus Ross (01:06:45):
I want to I want to understand that you're really
wanting this relationship towork and that will this
relationship still be enough? Inthe face of like you being able
to like, share your truth, behonest, be vulnerable. But once
you're vulnerable, once you'rehonest, and you share all this
information. Is it still whatwhat is what is pulling you back

(01:07:07):
towards? Alicia? I guess that'smy big question.

Mateo (01:07:11):
I mean,

Angus Ross (01:07:12):
all that I've just mentioned, you know, on a
spiritual level,

Mateo (01:07:15):
ya know, she's, she's great. And there's this sense of
innocence to her. And I don'tknow, she just, she accepts me
for who I am. But this missingpiece here was what I feel that

(01:07:36):
she didn't accept me for who Iam. And I had to accept her
everything for who she is. And Ireally, I didn't give her the
opportunity to be there for meemotionally because she was so
caught up in our own shed andhad, I wouldn't open up because
I just, you know, I'm, I don'tfucking talk about shit, right?

(01:08:02):
Like, something's bothering me.
I don't give a fuck. Like, I'lljust keep moving forward and
deal with the abuse. I don'tgive a shit. Because I've done
it for so long. You know, I didit in this action with this kid,
I did it with my mom, my sister,like, everyone, like I just have
been allowing, you know, allthis shit to enter and not
really share anything, because Ididn't think anything was really

(01:08:27):
worth sharing. I mean, I don't Idon't know if that makes sense.
It's like, I've never shared,I've never shared and it's
something that actuallyfrustrated me a lot in my
relationship, but I didn't giveAlicia the opportunity. For me
to share and for me to feelwhole in my relationship. There

(01:08:51):
was always like, an empty piecethere. You know what I mean? So
I feel like now that I'm, I'mokay, with what is going on? I
think I can, you know, be abetter partner and, and have
more understanding for herbecause, you know, hopefully
she'll have understanding forfor me and, and whatever. Like,

(01:09:12):
obviously, I still don't want tohear a bitch about her work and
stuff like that. But, you know,maybe,

Angus Ross (01:09:19):
but she's probably gonna do that.

Mateo (01:09:22):
No, that's, that's fine.
But I think laying everythingout on the table, kind of like
I've opened the closet, I'veemptied all my demons. And I
won't feel like all this anxietywhen she's just bitching because
it's like, I'm just throwing herdemons in my closet. You know
what I mean? Just like fuck it,just throw them in there and,

(01:09:44):
and there's like this wholecloset full of fucking shit
within me that I haven't justbeen able to use like, I'm just,
I don't know if you ever saw themummy where the guy opens his
mouth and all the fuckinglocusts is fly out of his mouth.
It's kind of like, oh, how thisfeels for me, it's like, there's
like a huge weight off myshoulder right now, I'm talking

(01:10:05):
to you about it, the, the weightthat I've carried around for so
long of this and what it has ledme to, to do and how it's led me
to react in relationships. And,and Alicia, you know, I would
say that, I mean, there aretimes where, like, she's bullied
me or whatever. But for the mostpart, like, she's, she's been

(01:10:27):
nothing but fucking stellar. AndI was really the one who was,
you know, very turned offemotionally, sexually,
spiritually, because it takesevery ounce in your being to
maintain such like a secret, youknow, about yourself. So, that

(01:10:47):
led me to believe that I didn't,I didn't put forth a great
effort in the relationship,because I can be 100% honest
with my partner, which cause youknow, other issues start
snowballing. And

Angus Ross (01:11:10):
I guess it's so easy to realize now listening to
Mateo, how toxic it is to not beable to express oneself,
particularly in the, in thecourse of a relationship, if one
feels like one has to hold backthis again, I don't know if this

(01:11:32):
is how he sees it, I'm sure hedoes is this dark secret that
he's had to maintain for allthese years, and he's in
relationship with someone who'svery adept at wearing their
heart on their sleeve. There'sprobably a real frustration for
Mateo that every day, he's beingforced to witness someone who's

(01:11:53):
actually very open in thatrespect. And on some level,
there's a great deal of discordthat he can't express himself in
the way that he wants to. And Iguess it's I don't know, I guess
it's a classic case of, ofpsychological projection, he's
angry with her, because she isable to do the one thing that he
is unable to do.

Rohini Ross (01:12:14):
And this is a really common coping mechanism
that many people use. And Ithink quite often, we take on
conditioning that tells us wejust have to push through, and
that we need to ignore our ownpsychological needs, that
they're not important. And so wecan just bottle things up inside

(01:12:37):
as a way to push through. Andeventually, at some point,
things tend to break down, youknow, I really relate to Mateo,
I think I am someone who doesn'tnecessarily have a tendency to
wear my heart on my sleeve allthe time, although I think I'm
getting better at that. But Ithink I, I took that path as

(01:13:00):
well, of just thinking that Icould use grit, and willpower,
in order to avoid facing painfulthings that I've experienced in
my life. And, you know, I endedup having psychological
breakdown when I was about 22.
And it seems like Mateos havinghis meltdown at this point in
his life. What right when he'sat the cusp of being able to be

(01:13:24):
in a committed, settled,intimate relationship. That's
when he starts to melt down. Andthat's actually the health of
the system. And that's why Ilove the metaphor of rewilding
because rewilding reallyacknowledges the health of all
of it. And so this is painful asit is as messy as it is. This is

(01:13:45):
part of his rewilding. This ispart of him reclaiming who he
is, and being committed tohaving a whole life and not
living just a fragment of whathe wants to live, but to really
embrace it all. Yeah,

Angus Ross (01:14:02):
well said he's, he's definitely gone wild. I
actually, it's actually quiteexciting to consider it on that
basis. He's really coming out toAlicia, and expressing himself
in an authentic way.

Rohini Ross (01:14:18):
Yeah. And I think that for all of us, we want to
embrace the wildness of who weare and our conceptual mind will
tell us that that's not allowedand it's too messy and it's
we're gonna end up making foolsof ourselves. But really, we
want to listen to that call inour heart that has us want to

(01:14:41):
expand and stretch and grow. Andof course, there's going to be
mess along the way. We're notgonna get it right the whole
time. There's going to be alearning curve with All of that.

(01:15:01):
But that's the beauty in therichness of life.

Angus Ross (01:15:05):
Yeah, he's, he's really throwing caution to the
wind. And I love thatexpression. If I think of it in
terms of the rewilding metaphorfor me, throwing caution to the
wind, is to not be sopreoccupied with what society or
the programming or theconditioning things. It's just

(01:15:26):
doing it anyway and followingone's instinctual side. And that
is that is the message behindrewilding is to follow our
instincts to follow that wisdom,and to not care what other
people think and to throwcaution to the wind.

Rohini Ross (01:15:42):
And really, just as a insight into the title of the
podcast rewilding love, we'renot really talking about
romantic love. We're talkingabout rewilding, the impersonal
love that is our true nature.

Mateo (01:15:54):
Thanks for letting me share all this.

Angus Ross (01:16:02):
Welcome, I feel really privileged that you would
share that with me. I mean, it'syou know, it's, it's good to get
that off your chest. I imagineafter all these years, man God,
and it's but it's not a bigdeal. You know, I want you to
know, it's not I don't thinkit's a big deal. And I know that
sounds kind of people thinkwell, that's awful thing to say,
because society would thinkthat's a really big deal. But

(01:16:23):
it's kind of not a big deal.
Because like end of the day,that's that's not who you are.
You know, we make up shit andbuild a story around it. Really?
And then the end of the day,we're all we're all spiritual
beings having a humanexperience. Yeah.

Mateo (01:16:42):
I think I can sleep tonight.

Angus Ross (01:16:44):
Awesome. All right.
Hey,

Mateo (01:16:48):
text me,

Angus Ross (01:16:49):
I will do Oh, man.
Take care.

Mateo (01:16:52):
Bye, bye.

Angus Ross (01:16:59):
So again, I want to stress when I say that, it's not
a big deal. That on one level,it is a really big deal. It's a
big deal, on the personal level,in the terms of our programming
and conditioning, that is a thatis that is abuse. And he's had

(01:17:21):
to suffer as a consequence ofthat, and the way that he's,
he's had to live his life. Butfor me, on a spiritual level,
it's not a big deal for me on aspiritual level, that is just
Mateo being a spiritual beinghaving a human experience. And
in this sense, the humanexperience is akin to the, to

(01:17:44):
the game of life, if it were acomputer game, it would be the
game of life, and the wholeobject of the exercise would be
to grow and evolve inconsciousness. And in my
estimation, to grow and evolvein consciousness, we have to
come up against challenge. Andsometimes those challenges are
really tough. So really, on thatlevel, if I look at it from that

(01:18:05):
vantage point, no big deal, youknow, I go through life, I have
challenges. I grow from them,and I evolve in consciousness, I
either do that, or I suffer andin a sense, buckle under that
pressure. And for a good periodof time, Mateo, it's not that
he's been buckling under thatpressure. But he has had that

(01:18:26):
he's had to live a life wherehe's really being white
knuckling his way through it. SoI'm sure he feels tremendously
relieved today to feel that hecan finally get that off his
chest. But you know, it is nobig deal in terms of this is
what he's going through. This isthe game of life. And hopefully,
he'll get to the other side witha lot more a lot more savvy and

(01:18:49):
know how and wisdom at hisdisposal.

Rohini Ross (01:18:53):
I really hear the compassion that you have for
him. And in those words, it's nobig deal. And I don't just see
that on the spiritual level, Isee that on the human level.
Because what I hear in thosewords, is that you're telling
him that who he is, is notdamaged by this, that it's not

(01:19:14):
big enough or powerful enough toimpact him in that way. And that
he does not have to definehimself by this experience, that
he's not a victim, even thoughsomething horrible happened to
him, and that we don't want tominimize that on any level. But
we also want him to beempowered, and to know that who

(01:19:37):
he is, is far greater thananything that's happened to him.

Angus Ross (01:19:45):
And in response to you saying that, I guess I would
say that, if I am to believe andI do that we are all spiritual
beings having a humanexperience. I guess the
messaging however, purposeful,that wasn't the time. And I
don't think it was, I think itwas more subconscious on this

(01:20:05):
level is that I was reallytrying to relate to him at a
spiritual level. And let himknow that we're on equal footing
here. We're all in this game oflife together. And there's
nothing really different betweenyou, me or anyone else. We're
all trying to do this gloriousGame of Life. And on a spiritual
level, we are all cut from thesame cloth.

Rohini Ross (01:20:28):
It's a beautiful reminder. And so as we bring
this session to completion, howwe left it with him was that we
would meet up with the four ofus so that he could share what
he wanted to share with supportwith Alicia and see where it

(01:20:49):
goes. Basically.