EP15: Love Restored

Angus and Rohini create a safe space for Mateo and Alicia to meet for a much-needed conversation about Mateo's past trauma and how it's impacted his life and their relationship. Mateo fears Alicia will be enraged at him when he shares about his recent sexual experiences outside of their relationship but is shocked to find she has a different response. Alicia has renewed her relationship with her spirituality, and she credits this for her ability to move forward, forgive, and stay in the present. 

Rohini relays a story about the power of not listening to her conceptual mind in regards to a conflict with her daughter. When she was caught up in her reactivity, the problems she and her daughter were facing seemed nearly impossible to tackle. But after her mind settled, which allowed her true nature to emerge organically, she had a refreshed outlook on how she could approach her daughter and they were able to see eye to eye as a result.

Meanwhile, Mateo and Alicia seem to be off to the races as far as regaining their connection and granting forgiveness is concerned. The group reflects on how much new "bandwidth" is freed up after secrets are revealed and shame is annihilated. But in true Mateo fashion, he has one more jaw-dropper to share with the group before the close of their session. That leaves Rohini feeling skeptical.

Rohini and Angus share news from their follow up with the couple. Will Angus get his "Hollywood ending"?

This episode explores: 

• The burden of a secret is toxic.
• Releasing shame allows us to be open-hearted again.
• Learning is what's most important -- even though it can be painful.
• When a relationship is in crisis, the opportunity for healing and growth is part of that "crisis-packaging".
• Forgiveness

Show Notes

The truth will set you free: Biblical adage from the "people's favorite gospel". And, when we let go of judgment we can see that our innate essence is always pure.
Netflix metaphor: Angus's famous metaphor about a low mood's desire to find a matching "frame" -- like when rewinding a show on Netflix.
Bundy Drive: the physical street Mateo and Alicia turned onto to get to their session with Angus and Rohini -- also refers to Mateo's foreboding feeling about Alicia's possible response to his revelations.

Podcast music
Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area. Episode 15 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity.

Feedback: [e-mail]

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: therewilders.org.

Episode Transcript

Rohini Ross (00:00):
This is Episode 15.
Love rewilded.

(01:02):
Well, after last week's episode,this session is meeting with the
four of us. And we were reallyfortunate that we were able to
set this time up where we couldall meet together in person
pretty quickly. After what Mateoreveal to you.

Angus Ross (01:19):
Yeah, I mean, I think I've run out of ways to
articulate how we never saw thiscoming, because I never saw this
coming. And I can't even imaginehow surprised Alicia is going to
be. And I'm very curious to seehow that information is going to

(01:39):
affect her and what the responseis going to be. So yeah, we're
really lucky that we were ableto pull this together so
quickly. Especially as you know,Mateo, bless his heart decided
to sort of go AWOL for a littlewhile. And now here we are,
again, I had, as I have saidbefore, I thought the whole

(01:59):
thing has gone up in smoke. Butit's very much not the case. And
we'll see where we go forforward from here.

Rohini Ross (02:08):
And even though, Mateo went a while, we had been
working with Alicia, and she wasnavigating all of this in a
really mature way.

Angus Ross (02:24):
Yeah, I mean, she was the poster child for
maturity. As far as I wasconcerned in the way that she
was handling it, she was feelingher feelings. And she was very
philosophical about it. And shewas never throughout it all. And
we've said this before, she wasnever really feeling any sense
of vitriol towards Mateo, quitethe opposite. She was really
somehow able to see hispsychological and innocence

(02:46):
within all of this. Which isamazing.

Rohini Ross (02:50):
And then one other thing to note is that before
this meeting, they had beenconnecting, they had been
getting along. So that had beenhappening, but Mateo just hadn't
revealed these two importantpieces of information, one about
the abuse and two about theinfidelity.

Angus Ross (03:10):
Yeah. And he obviously felt like I guess we
had created a safe container forhim to share in that way. And
this is going to be that moment.
So with this next section that'scoming up, I do seem to remember

(03:31):
that we had to start aroundlunchtime, because I think we
had to accommodate the fact thatthey wanted to go to church that
morning. And church is somethingI guess they do together. And I
don't know if it was because ofthat in my remembrance of going
to church. In terms of why Idecided to sort of kick things

(03:52):
off on a more spiritual note, Ibet it was that, maybe it just
felt like it was appropriate atthe time, it was obviously
appropriate to me at the time.
But I guess I guess I went bigpicture. And I kind of liked the
way that I decided to do that.
It seemed like that waseffective. And it was a good
place to start.

Rohini Ross (04:13):
Well, I seem to recall that we did have a
conversation about this, becausewe didn't want them to get
caught up in the weeds. And sowe thought it would be important
to set a bigger picture contextto help them be more
philosophical, because we'regoing to be dealing with some
pretty sensitive information.
And so if their minds and heartscould be open, we felt that that
would allow for a better meetingwith all of us.

Angus Ross (04:38):
Well, you know, I have a memory like a goldfish.
So I guess that's why I neededto find another reason.

Rohini Ross (04:46):
So I could say make anything happen you.

Angus Ross (04:51):
I'll go with that though. If you think that that
higher power is part of ourdesign is kind of like we are,
we come into this world. And wehave the gift of a conceptual
mind and the ability to think,and kind of figure out our

(05:11):
environment with our fivesenses. We have that gift if you
like. But, and that's part ofour design. But a bigger part of
our design, perhaps to consideris that our essential nature is
made up of that consciousness,that intelligence behind life.
And so at that level, if weconsider that, you know, at that

(05:32):
level, there's no judgment,because it's beyond the
conceptual mind. It's beyond theego, it's beyond all the stuff
that we make up and store away,it's kind of like, there's just
no judgment there. There's noconflict, there's no difficulty.
It's just all about creatingbalance and well being. So I
thought, I just thought it wouldbe nice to start there, just

(05:54):
saying that out loud. Because Ifeel like if we look in that
direction, we're always going toget the answers that we need.
And if we get a sense of that,we'll get less preoccupied with
what comes out of the storagesystem, the supercomputer that's
basically been storing awaynarratives from the moment we
opened our eyes and our fivesenses started experiencing the

(06:15):
world. But it's kind of like,that's just stuff that we've
made up along the way. You know,and it's very cool that we have
that capacity. But it's kind ofnot, it's not the side on which
our bread is buttered in a way,because the bigger picture is
that intelligence. And that'skind of for me is where we get
inspiration where we get newideas where we get new thoughts

(06:36):
and, and for me, as I say, WhatI like about it in the context
of a relationship with peoplewho get into difficulty, they
tend to look in the direction ofthe supercomputer, the
conceptual mind, because that'sthe storage system of
narratives. But beyond that, thebigger picture is kind of like,
that's your essential nature.
That's how you really gluetogether. That's how you connect

(06:58):
how we kind of all connect. Butas a couple, it's really good to
sort of know that. That's alwaysthe default setting for us.

Rohini Ross (07:13):
You did a really beautiful job here of pointing
to the impersonal, and reallyholding that big picture. And
when I was listening to youduring the session, this story
came up in my mind that Ithought would be really helpful
for making what you were sayingmore tangible, and sort of

(07:34):
bringing more of the messinessof the human element to it.
Because sometimes it's hard forpeople to translate that big
picture into what what does thatlook like in everyday life? So I
give a very fresh and realexample from everyday life.

Angus Ross (07:50):
Yes, you, you need a bit of human mess to amplify a
point sometimes what we all donot you personally.

Rohini Ross (08:04):
So this happened to me yesterday, where it was the
day before. So there wasyesterday, but the day before
yesterday, our eldest daughterwas not. She'd worked a really
long day. And then there was afire on Topanga Canyon. So it
was shut shut. And she called ussaying traffic stop, which they
do. And she was really, in herconceptual mind sped up, angry,

(08:28):
frustrated, not feeling welljust wanted to get home and she
was probably like 5,10 minutesfrom home, but nothing was
happening. And so I said to her,oh, well, that's fine. You know,
this happens. Sometimes theyshut the canyon, just go back
and go up old Topanga go aroundthe horn and come home that way,
you'll probably get back thatway if they've shut the canyon

(08:48):
there. And so she did that. ButI didn't know this, but they
shut the canyon at Mulhollandand PCH because of the fire. So
not only did she go this otherroute, which everybody else was
doing, so it was taking forever,but then by the time she got
them all and they wouldn't letit so took about three hours
before she got home. And she wasand then she called us which

(09:12):
from Mulholland realizing shewasn't gonna get it and she was
just livid. She was so angry.
And she was the words that werecoming out of her mouth was
almost like I had purposely toldher to go, you know, I've
purposely wanted it to go wrongfor her and I and I took it
personally. I just felt hurt. Myfeelings got hurt. And I felt
like, you know, I wasn't doinganything wrong. I was just

(09:35):
trying to help you why screamingat me, and so I got reacted with
her. And then you know, I couldsee how he's just getting into
my conceptual mind. So the nextday things have settled down. I
thought, you know, we'll go tolunch. We'll just kind of build
rapport that way. So we went outto lunch, had a really nice
lunch. We didn't talk aboutanything that happened. And then
when we got home after being ina really nice Usually she starts

(09:59):
to talk about what happenedyesterday. And she starts to
kind of criticize how I showedup. And I took it personally.
And I just again, I went in, myfeelings got hurt. I got into
that what Angus is talking aboutthe memory. And I and I said to
her, I said, Listen, I'mreactive right now. And I can't
be in this conversation. But shedidn't want me to leave the

(10:22):
conversation, because she feltlike I was abandoning her if I
left the conversation. And Isaid, you know, the best that I
can. And then I got really, Ifelt hopeless. I felt down and
like, I think we need amediator. Like, I don't think we
can do this. And she's like,what do you do for a living? Why
are you saying you need amediator, like, thtas amazing.
Oh, my God, like, I don't know,I'm reactive, I can't help

(10:48):
myself. It's like, I don't knowwhat to do. I feel like I can't
do this with you. And so I justgot really low, I got really in
a low mood. And, and I knewlike, even though she wanted me
to be there, I couldn't sayanything. Because if I said
anything, I knew it wasn't gonnabe good. And so I'm like,
there's no point in this. So Isaid, I have to leave. So when

(11:09):
we separated, she didn't likeit, I'm sure but we separate it.
And I was stirred up. I'm inthis, like, Oh, my God, you
know, maybe she's like, got adiagnosed mental health issue, I
can't help her. We're gonna, youknow, I'm just like, going down
this rabbit hole. And so then Itexted Angus flurry of text to
him. And he's like, Oh, justdon't take it personally. He

(11:31):
said to me yesterday, I'm like,Oh, god, that's not helping me.
So then I just, you know, didsome emails and someone else
reached out to me aboutsomething. So I just took my
mind off of that. And when Miketook my mind off of it, my
conceptual mind just kind ofrelax. As soon as it relaxes, we
get more open to that deeperintelligence that's inside of

(11:54):
us. Because as Angus said, aspart of us, it's who we are. And
so it was probably 30 minuteslater. Not very long. And all of
a sudden, now my mind is open,and I'm feeling warm towards
her. I'm feeling love towardsher. I'm no longer feeling like
I can't do it. Like, Oh, Ishould just go talk to her. My
head's going, Oh, no, no, no,it's just gonna start it all up

(12:15):
again. I'm like, No, I shouldjust go talk to her. And so from
that space, what, you know,you're talking about Angus'
terms of like being connectedand open to God or the
intelligence behind life. Fromthat space, I went to her. And I
said, you know, I'm willing totry again, if you're willing to
try again, and, and so from thatspace, we had this very simple

(12:38):
conversation, where I was ableto hear what it was that she was
trying to say to me, which wasthat she wanted me to help her
calm down. She was like, soupset that she was reaching out
for help. And when I gotreactive, I was like, throwing

(13:03):
fuel on a fire. So she got morereactive. And she said, I
understand that I need to getbetter at not, you know,
attacking. But can youunderstand that all I need at
those times, is help regulatingbecause I'm really I struggle
with that. And when she said itthat way, I'm like, Oh, yeah, of

(13:25):
course. And I said, but whathappens is, when you lead with
the attack, I'm human, sometimesmy feelings get hurt. And if my
feelings get hurt, I'm not goingto be able to do that for you.
And she's like, Okay, I getthat. And I can work on getting
better at that. But if maybewhen you first hear the sound of
my voice, and you recognize thatI'm dysregulated, could you try

(13:47):
to help me that before I've evensaid anything? And I'm like,
Yeah, I can do that. And I andit reminded me when she was a
baby, because she has a verysensitive nervous system. She
would not sleep, she would notsleep, she would cry an awful
lot. And so we would swaddleher. And we would wrap her
really tightly, because it wassoothing. And then we'd bounce

(14:07):
her, and she'd go to sleep. AndI said, Oh, I got to try and
swaddle you with words. Andshe's like, yes, that's what I
need. But I got there because Ijust was able to let go of all
of the personal thinking that Ihad, and just get back into my
heart. And to me, being in myheart is equivalent to being

(14:28):
connected with that deeperenergy. To me, the feeling of
love is one of the hallmarks ofbeing in connection with that.
And so I went from feeling like,this is completely beyond my
paygrade I don't care what I dofor a living. I can't do this
with my own daughter. I said,That's why surgeons don't
operate on their members. It'slike I can't do it with you. But

(14:50):
I went from there, the depths oflike, this is just not ever
gonna work to like oh, having areally straightforward
conversation. Where we couldboth acknowledge our limitations
and recognize how we could bothdo our best to be better. But
what felt good to both of us.
And to me, that's the differencebetween trying to figure

(15:10):
something out from theconceptual mind where my
feelings are hurt, I'm taking itpersonally, I'm judging her to
letting all of that golike itjust didn't even exist anymore.
to seeing like, I love her, howare we going to work this out,
and just having an open mind.

Angus Ross (15:33):
So, what I really love about how we kick things
off here is that, I guess youwould anticipate based on what
happened on the previousrecording, that we were going to
come in and like, oh, there'sthis big dark secret. And you
know, it's going to be a case oflike how quickly you're going to

(15:55):
be able to get this off yourchest Mateo, because Alicia is
sitting there with bated breath.
And we, we go in a wholedifferent direction. And we
start off, all guns blazing onthe teaching front being very
philosophical. Me pointing tothe impersonal, and then you
giving this beautiful storyabout the impersonal and the

(16:16):
value of looking in thatdirection. And I just think that
that's a great way to, to reallyanchor that in. And make that be
a big part of this experience.
It has to be fundamental in thisexperience of going through an
intensive for a couple to reallyget on that table on that page,

(16:40):
table page.

Rohini Ross (16:42):
Table. Reading table,

Angus Ross (16:45):
I don't know why I said table. You know what I
mean?

Rohini Ross (16:51):
Now I do.

Angus Ross (16:53):
And the other thing that I think is worth mentioning
here is that in us approachingit this way, I think gave them
plenty of room to get their mindsettled so that they could share
whatever they needed to sharefrom a mindset that was
comfortable, and open.

Rohini Ross (17:16):
And now we'll hear from Mateo

Mateo (17:22):
So I think we're really here because like I spoke to
Angus and weve been separatedout for like, two, two months,
two and a half months, andstarted to understand some
things about myself and takensome other experiences as well
to understand that, but I cameto the conclusion that I never

(17:46):
really gave Alicia and I'srelationship, the proper like,
foundation to build on because Iwasn't like 100% honest with you
know, what had occurred with mein life. And not sure if I ever
really wanted to share it. But Ialso didn't think there was
like, a proper time to share it.
And also, it's just difficult totalk about, but yeah, I when I

(18:07):
was younger, I did I wassexually abused by one kid that
was two years older than me. Andit went on for a while. But it
created this. This I doubt in mymind of who I am this, this

(18:28):
shame this. There's so many justlike confusion, so much
different stuff that I went onthat I never was fully
comfortable with who I was andlike telling people anything and
it really prevented though, likeAliciaand I's relationship from
from flourishing, because shedidn't have that understanding

(18:51):
of like, what I had gone throughand, you know, she's seen some
guy that comes home and, youknow, seems angry and
disconnected and just, you know,thinking and like still carrying
all that weight all these yearsand and so, you know, it's
something that I it was reallyhard for me to struggle with

(19:12):
being in this relationship withAlicia and and it costs so much
other different stuff likewithin me. But when Alicia and I
did separate I I did haverelationships with other people
not emotionally but just likephysically just like learning
about myself and it's notsomething that I ever wanted to

(19:36):
do. But I think through it allI've kind of learned that I'm
okay to like live with who I amand guess just want Alicia to be
able to, to understand who I amand to be able to live with some
of the things that I've done.

(19:58):
You know, and No, it's reallyhard. It just is liberating
telling you. Angus is the onlyperson I've ever told, but it
definitely felt like a weightoff my chest. But now it's like,
this other thing is like gray.
Okay, you know what, you couldhave shared that with Alicia
without doing all that stuff,but I just, I don't know, I
wasn't I didn't know how it'd bereceived, I thought I could just

(20:24):
deal with it. But just somethings that you can't, you
should be open and honest about.
And I regret, you know,everything that's, that's
happened the past two and a halfmonths, except for Shawn, I
finally, you know, being on apretty decent foot. But I don't

(20:47):
know where to go from here withAlicia and I, I mean, I know
what I want. But, you know, Ijust, you know, it's for, it's
for Alicia to forgive now, likewhat I've done since then, but
just hopefully knowing that, youknow, the things that I did do,
you know, came from, like, areally hurtful place within me.

(21:07):
And, you know, I mean, she knowsI've dealt with thoughts of
suicide for like, the longesttime ever. And I definitely
think that that was a bigproponent of all those feelings.
But this is something I shouldhave probably shared earlier to,
just didn't know how to feel soshameful for now, what I have
done, like, put, you know, thesexual abuse behind me, but now

(21:30):
it's like, you know, I fucked upthe last two months, and I did
it out of trying to have moreunderstanding for myself and,
you know, confusion about therelationship that Alicia and I
had, whether it was going towork, whether it was in but
then, you know, the realizationwas like, I didn't give it the,
the right place and the rightfoundation, again, to build a,

(21:54):
you know, a good relationship ofopenness, honesty,
understanding, and I justtotally mess that up.

Rohini Ross (22:04):
At this point, Mateo isn't quite ready to
address Alicia directly. So he'stalking to you and I, at this
point in time, and we justreally allow the conversation to
continue and have Aliciarespond.

Alicia (22:22):
Sorry, that that was your experience. Because that's
not cool. But as you probablyimagine, I've read every
scenario in my head. And I doforgive you. Because I know that

(22:43):
the shitstorm that you weregoing through, probably wasn't
fun to go through. They canforgive me for like, all of it
and just leaving the past themas they were, when we make
mistakes.

Mateo (23:04):
Just never wanted to hurt you, you know, and, like, you
know, we separated everything. Iknew it hurt you. But I didn't
think it was anything comparedto like, what I was hurting
inside. But like right now, Ijust I just wish I could have
gone back in time and just beenhonest, so that none of this

(23:27):
ever happened. You know? I justdon't want it to like I was
really afraid for it's liketaints our relationship moving
forward.

Alicia (23:37):
I think it would have given me more understanding.

Mateo (23:42):
I know, I just didn't understand myself. You know,
like, I didn't know. I knowanything.

Alicia (23:55):
Weeks ago, before I did start going to church and
everything I said to you said itto Lacey. If he hooks up with
anybody else, like I'm doneforever. I don't care. I'm going
through church. I really foundthings I never even thought I

(24:18):
knew about myself where I gainedpatience and I've gained
compassion and I've gained a lotof understanding. I have a lot
of work to do. But I know it'ssomething that you and I spoke
about the I knew that thiswasn't him like everything that
was going on. And I gained anunderstanding for the chaos and

(24:40):
your struggle to understand thatthere was something bigger
happening that you I don't thinkeven thought like knew about
like I thought it was gonna takeme a year to have some sort of a
come to Jesus moment or somesort of a realization. As I
said, I put it already in myhead, and I forgave it weeks ago
because It's not a burden I wantto bear up like being upset. But

(25:05):
I've also like told you like,I've tried to hate you. I've
wanted to hate you. And I can'tdo it.

Mateo (25:25):
Yeah, I'm just really sorry. I mean, sorry, is like a
strong enough word. And justregret. And it's just like
another regret I'm going to haveto live with for the rest of my
life was just like the fact thatweight alone is to just kind of

(25:45):
tired of being in that bubbleof, you know, just shame and who
am I?

Alicia (25:59):
You may have done things to me to hurt me. But I can
recognize that what you feelfrom it versus being on the
receiving end is probably 100times worse.

Mateo (26:21):
I mean, the being with other people, being separated
hurts me more than like,everything that I shared about
like my childhood. Like that.
That's nothing compared to like,what I'm feeling I feel so dirty
and like bad and a lot of shameand you know, I just like I

(26:46):
said, I wish we just could goback and be honest with you then
about everything. So I wouldnever feel uncomfortable in our
relationship to you know, justthat didn't allow me to just be
present, you know, and it justtook a while for me to get there

(27:07):
to like, like figure out like,Hey, man, this is something
you've been carrying aroundforever and it's really like
fucking you up and you know, andit's ruining relationships for
you and you're you know, you'reruining yourself like I when I
say like, I felt like I was likeslowly dying like those real
like I really felt like I wasdying every day. And yeah, like

(27:28):
our relationship whatever, but Ithink it had to do more. No, it
wasn't the relationship that waskilling me it was like not
having a partner that I I hadshared everything with so they
can understand where I'm comingfrom and and i don't know it was
just it was really bizarre forfor me to be there for you

(27:51):
emotionally when he needed andyou wanting me there every day
and me not being able to havethe same or feel that way
because there was like this onething that I hadn't shared but
it was like everything,like forme it was literally everything.

Rohini Ross (28:22):
That's the burden of a secret that's toxic

Mateo (28:30):
Wish I could go back and not do the things I did in the
past few months but if he givesme any hope that like it, it's
what led me to you know, want tohave this level of honesty with
a partner like I wish I couldhave done it a different way but
I didn't so I don't know what itmeans for the future. But I do

(28:59):
hope that like we can keep goinglike I've been having nothing
but fun with you like the pastcouple days and weeks and
just...

Alicia (29:16):
How can I guarantee that this is not something that's
going to happen again that oneday there's an atomic bomb that
goes off and I'm blindsidedagain. Because what I went
through and I understand allyour feelings and what you've
done your journey and I really Iget it but I also had feelings

(29:38):
that got destroyed.

Gonzo (29:42):
Just being able to be honest with you. And also with
myself I mean it doesn't seemlike much now because it's out
in the open but fuck this thingis kept me up at night. Like
it's kept me away from like,doing things from being happy on
like holidays. Like, I think mywhole life not just like, you

(30:06):
and I but like, dude, likeforever be like stole a piece of
my childhood, like my innocence.
And it was just so it was reallyrough. And then I just like that
like feeling of acceptance oflike what happened and not

(30:31):
addressing it just allowed meto, like, get in different
relationships where it's wasn'tlike so hardcore, but like, it
was pretty hardcore too. And itwas just bad, you know, and I
think he kind of see it likewith some of my friendships or
just let people like, run overme. And she's like, it became a
standard in my life just likeYeah, dude, that's what you got

(30:54):
to do to be accepted as that youjust got to be willing to be
abused, like physically ormentally just like, whatever.
You know, and sometimes withinour own relationship, you know,
and it, it got like, heavy,like, I felt that same burden in
our relationship. And it really,like when I started like

(31:14):
detaching, I was like, Dude islike the same level of abuse
that I'm going through likethese other people, but like,
I'm married to this person and,and, like, there was like, a
level of, of uncertainty theretoo. That was like, Dude, are
you just like, addicted to theseabusive relationships, like
what's going on.

Alicia (31:37):
But it did feel like there was something wrong with
me when you decided to leave.
And then going through the wholelike reflection and just being
alone and being by yourself andtry to find like who you are,
and be strong. Through thisprocess, is what I just finally
started seeing, like, I'm notthis monster, I'm not abusive,
I'm not an alcoholic. I'm not ajust like everything that was

(32:05):
said about me like that I justthat I blow up about everything
in this notes, like, no, Iactually found like, who I truly
am. And I'm, I am a very, verycalm person. But I'm also hyper
and I like to have fun, and Ilike to be full of life and feed
off of people's energies. AndI'm also human to go through the
motions of like, shit sucks atwork, and you want to go home to

(32:26):
your safe space and just like,divulge everything. And you'd be
like, Whoa, this happened justto like, let it go and get off
your chest. But that's who I'vealways been, because I can't
keep things bottled up inside.
So a lot of what has transpiredwas me realizing that like, I'm
not made out to be who I was.
And then I finally gained theconfidence in like, not caring

(32:49):
whether or not people thought ofme, like some of your friends,
like, I don't care if they thinkI'm dramatic, or that I blow up.
It's like, this is who I am. AndI'm confident in who I am. And
that was one of the biggestrealizations that I came to
terms with. Because for thefirst three, four weeks, I mean,

(33:10):
I was just like, everything'swrong with me. I mean, I catch
myself sobbing on the bathroomfloor, like hysterical. But I
channeled in very differentways. And I noticed I was going
into the rabbit hole ofdepression at one point, like, I
scared myself enough to be like,you need to get out of bed. And

(33:31):
so I transformed by going andworking out every single day at
5am. And that sort of buildingendorphins and building
confidence and building a lot oflike, less holding on to what
other people say or do or thingbecause I don't care. And one of
the things was during theearthquake. I remember texting

(33:52):
my two best friends and beinglike, Oh my God, is there an
earthquake? And I was like, Ohmy God being so dramatic. Like,
like, I thought of you in thatsense. It was like God would
think I'm being dramatic andit's like, oh, no, there was an
earthquake that hit like you'renot a dramatic person. You
sometimes take drama in thingsbut I think with gaining all of
that confidence andunderstanding of who you are and

(34:15):
the compassion that you havewithin I forgave you a long time
ago.

Gonzo (34:25):
You are dramatic and super dramatic. Chicken Little
but I you know, I married youbecause I I'm okay with you. It
was me that I wasn't okay withand taken 30 years well, not 30
years. What is it like 20,22years to figure all this out?

(34:50):
It's been hard and I'm sorry, Iput that stuff on you. Get me
wrong. batshit crazy sometimes,but I I mean, give you the space
to be able to be batshit crazyand it be okay because I was so
psychotic in my own shit, youknow, and I don't want you to

(35:13):
change from who you are at all.
Anything I want you to just beyourself and just allow me to,
to love you like, I know that Ican. It's just I never gave the
opportunity just because again,I just had a different side of
me and never wanted my worlds tocollide. You know, I had a
secret life that I was living.

(35:35):
And I didn't want anyone to knowabout it. But that's not a
relationship, you're supposed toknow everything about your
partner. And that's where Ireally fucked up to.

Alicia (35:48):
Do you think by disclosing everything now? Like
you can be open to, like, beopen to open heart and love? And

Gonzo (35:58):
yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. I mean, you asked,like, how do you know this isn't
gonna happen again, it's like,well, I've never been honest
with someone before. Like aboutthis. Like, I've been countless
therapists, my parents sent meto anger management, like all
this crazy shit. And no oneknows anything. No one does. And
Angus was literally the firstperson I've ever told in my

(36:20):
entire life. And I'm hoping thatthat that for me was like, that
realization of like, wheneverything happened was kind of
like rock bottom. And I'mreally, I'm hopeful that it's
like a turning of a corner formyself and my own being. Not
sure that I want to share itwith everyone, you know, I'm not

(36:42):
just gonna call my friends andbe like, hey, by the way, like,
you know, this happened like,no, but for my partner to, to
know, you know, where I writecome from stuff, I think that's
all I really, really want. Ithink that's what people really
want is just a partner that hastheir trust, and they can have
their trust. And I just, I neverlet myself get there. And

(37:09):
that's, that was the firstmistake.

Alicia (37:15):
I can't say I understand that you what you went through,
because I don't think anybodyshould have to deal with that.
But I understand how it moldedyou and affected you. In a very
empathetic towards it.

Gonzo (37:31):
It just sucks.

Alicia (37:36):
In regards to the infidelity who does know?

Mateo (37:44):
Who does know about the infidelity? Jaren and Matt
know. But again, for me, it wasnever an emotional connection
with anyone. It was just aphysical thing. And it was
something that I was learning.
It wasn't like your standardlike, yeah, it wasn't anything

(38:06):
normal. Making sure.

Alicia (38:17):
I have been throw a lot of therapy in the last year to
understand enough that people gothrough things and people make
mistakes. And I think I'm notabove anybody not to like
forgive things. So I'm notsaying that I'm not going to
forgive me if any of us arelike,

Gonzo (38:38):
I just really hope you can forgive me and not hold it
against me at any point.

Alicia (38:41):
Do you understand the damage that's going to do to me
to hold on to it and hurt by it?
Like I'm not it's called selfcare and self love. Like I can't
hold on to something like that.
I held on too long with like,all of like, thinking everything
was wrong with me. And that'swhy you left and being upset

(39:02):
with you. That's why I told youlike I tried to hate you. I
tried so badly because like, ifI could hate him, then I can
shut the door and never care.
But my heart never let me dothat. And it just because I had
to like let go of all thoseburdens. And so like, don't want
to think about your thing everagain. Honest to God, I don't, I
do believe in the spiritualguidance, that internal

(39:23):
navigation system. And that'sall told me you let it go and
but for your own sanity in yourown heart in your own liberating
feelings to live life. I don'twant to look at you that way. I
mean, it sucks. to even have youadmit it. I even put it in my

(39:43):
head already. But like I toldyou before, I was like I don't
think you're a bad person. And Idon't think that things are
unforgivable. And I'm willing togive you a chance. If you

Mateo (40:00):
Sure,

Alicia (40:01):
yeah and rebuild, rebuild the trust, and

Gonzo (40:09):
I can try to make it better than ever. Like, that's
all I can do, I can't tell youthat I'm going to text you every
five minutes, but definitely behonest with you about everything
and, and hopefully not be insuch a negative space you know
or shut off when you're tryingto talk to me because I'm so

(40:32):
tired for the day and then allthis other shit like, that's all
I can really give to you is, iscoming in actually with an open
mind knowing that everything'son the table that I can do. I

(40:55):
was really picturing her like,trying to kill me.

Alicia (41:02):
forget who I am. And think that you forget that I do
have a very kind heart. And I'vealways been so forgiving of you.

Angus Ross (41:13):
I don't think there's there's really that much
for us to say at this point.
After listening to that, becauseI feel like really all that we
were doing, I say all that wewere doing, I think we were
doing a lot in this respect, butwe created a very safe container
for them to be able to shareauthentically and openly with
one another. And that was, forme that was profound. So I think

(41:36):
that it's important for us tosay how we feel like we set up a
safe container. And that wasvery apparent by how open and
vulnerable they both were. In asituation that was probably very
uncomfortable for both of them.

Rohini Ross (41:57):
Yeah, I think they did a really beautiful job of
sharing together. And Mateo wasable to speak to Alicia directly
as they had their interaction.

Angus Ross (42:07):
Yeah, and neither of them were holding back.

Gonzo (42:16):
We went to church today.
And for going to church, and youknow, the kids like going to
church, you might hear a goodmessage or whatever. And they
never had a connection withlike, this, like God, right?
This, say corporate God thatthey, you know, create this
entity of Christianity orCatholicism. But today, like,
you know, after talking to you,and it was like, the first time

(42:39):
I'd been to church, like,everything started to feel warm,
and like real. And I gave it anopportunity. And it was just
really, it was really bizarrefor me, like, I don't try to
look it but like, there's somuch hate, it's just in me, try
to be the nicest person, butthere's just so much hate. And

(43:02):
it stems from, you know, what Iwent through with, you know,
being abused, and like my dadleaving super early, like, he's
just so much hate. And I'm justhoping that like, with
everything on the table andbeing able to express like, how
I feel openly and not feelingthis way of, you know, Did I do
something wrong? sort of thing.

(43:26):
I'm hoping that it does, youknow, open up our relationship
to, to something like, muchbetter that, you know, we both
desired in a relationship and inand a marriage. You know, but I
can't say that you're 100% atfault, because you know, you You
ain't crazy, but me not beinghonest with you is probably what

(43:50):
drove you to, to, you know, somesome out whatever, freak outs or
whatever it may have been like,I know that I reflected on that
and realize like, yeah, you knowwhat, you weren't the one that
went crazy, but you also didn'tlike allow the other person to
be sane at the same time. So Ido see that?

Alicia (44:13):
Thank you. cuz I've said this to you before. I don't know
if it resonated, but peoplereact to the ways that they're
treated. Yeah. And a lot oftimes when I'd have blow ups,
like even in front of yourfriends, it's like, oh, my god,
they're picking on me. And I'mtelling you, I'm sensitive, and
no one's listening to me. So nowI'm gonna snap at you. And it's

(44:33):
not for everybody here becauseI'm like, I don't want to be
picked on, you know, and that's,that was my right and is it the
right way? No, you know, andthere's even going into this
like I did find my faith witheverything and the inner
guidance of the odd and I'veprayed. The day that you came
over. And you were chanting andenjoyment and chanting and

(44:56):
divorce. Now you wanted us to bedone and you are shocking. I
like walked away with the factthat I was so calm. It was like
because I have prayed to just belike, just take things as an
adult and not be reactive. Andit's like the same thing that's
happening today. Like you'reshocked with my behaviors, but
this is who I am. You just gottabe honest and open with me.

Mateo (45:20):
Yeah. It is shocking.
Calm, serial killer, shocking.
We got off on Bundy Street.
Drivers are really happy howit's all being taken in. And

(45:55):
it's not, I'm not going to takethis for granted, either. I want
you to know that this wasn'tlike a whole machine until
everything's she knows why I wasasshole like, no, it's like, I
really want a family I want, youknow, a life with you. And the
only way to do is be honest.

(46:18):
Yeah.

Angus Ross (46:26):
So I don't think there's a coincidence, in the
fact that he's sharing about howhis experience in church is
having him experience, I guess,the intelligence behind life,
God in a whole new way. BecauseI think that, I don't know, I

(46:51):
want to conclude that goingthrough this experience, he's
had a shift in consciousness.
And it's a case of, you know,I'm sure our consciousness
shifts and fluctuates. But Ithink once something is seen, it
can't be unseen. So he's seensomething on a fairly deep
level. And I think that nowthat's opened him up. And I

(47:11):
think that I'm burdening himselfwith his dark secret, that he's
probably this is how he's viewedit for all these years, has
given him more of an opening,more room for him to experience,
love, and all those goodqualities that come with looking
in the direction of truth, andhonesty, and the impersonal. And

(47:33):
I think that that is borne outby his experience in church this
morning, or that morning, that,that he's now able to appreciate
the impersonal so much more. AndI think that he's opening up
exponentially on that front.

Rohini Ross (47:54):
Yeah, makes me feel very hopeful for the
relationship, because bycarrying that secret and feeling
the weight of all of that shame,he was an open hearted. And as
you say, with him, being able tounburden himself that allowed
himself to open his heart, andto be better able to feel the

(48:14):
love that's inside of him. Thatexperience he had in church was
not something going into himfrom church. That was him having
an experience of his innatestate, his true nature. And so
he's more open to that now.

Angus Ross (48:28):
Yeah. And I think that part of the condition of
holding a secret in that way.
The defense mechanism to that isjust a state of judgment, that
that that probably has beenperpetual for him for many
years. And as that jazz judgmentdissipates, as we say, there's
there's much more room for loveto take its place.

Rohini Ross (49:01):
This is a new foundation. But we really are
committed to supporting you withintegrating that new foundation
and having it get momentum andtraction in your lives going
forward.

Mateo (49:13):
Yeah, so what does that look like though? Cuz I mean,
you know, I say everything thatlike went on. I don't want to
really relive everything. I justwant Alicia and I to build on
like, you know, new foundation,right? to like, work on moving
forward. I don't really want torelive anything.

Rohini Ross (49:34):
Yeah. That's a really good point, because that
would be traumatizing and nothealthy. Yeah. So I think that's
something to say out loud hereand have that kind of as an
understood like, it's good to behonest. But it doesn't need to
be rehashed. So it's like, Ithink that and I was going to
ask you as well if there was anyadditional questions that either

(49:55):
one of you had for each otherfor today before we finish up
just so that this is kind oflike Let's get everything out on
the table, and just really sortof start from a clean slate. But
your instinct Mateo is reallyhealthy, especially with
traumatic experiences, it's nothelpful to go back into the

(50:16):
reliving of the rehashing what'sgonna be most helpful for you
now is to not carry the burdenand the weight of the secret and
withholding.

Alicia (50:27):
You know, Alicia has a secret that she's gonna be
holding back from her friendsor, you know, whoever, like, I
don't want that either. Like, Iknow what that burden is like,
andIt's secret. It's not my burden,
not my secret,

Mateo (50:43):
But me having been with, you know, like, that's, that's
something that you're with now.
And I don't, I don't mind if youtell people like yeah, you know,
guns that are separated? Yeah,you did some stuff. Like, I, I
can't have you though, goingthrough that.

Alicia (51:06):
It's my choice to share what I want.

Mateo (51:08):
I know, but I also know what it's like to, to hold
something in.

Alicia (51:13):
Yeah. But I've always said to you, you're my best
friend. And you're the one thatI share everything with, I don't
care to share everything elsewith anybody else. So not gonna
go shop on the rooftops like,oh, god cheated on me like, no.
Okay, I think you saideverything that you needed to

(51:35):
say and that I, I know enough toknow enough. And that's it. I
don't want to go back into thepast. I don't want to live
there. I want to look forward infuture. And I recognize that you
made a mistake. And I'm bigenough to are bold enough maybe

(51:58):
to understand that that was amistake and move forward from it
in the hopes that this has neverto transpire again.

Angus Ross (52:11):
You know, when I first heard him talk about the
need for there not to be anyrehashing about what had
happened. There was a part of methinking, Oh, he's just trying
to sort of give himself an easylife. But in actual fact, as he
continued to articulate hisconcerns, it was evident to me

(52:33):
that actually, there was somewisdom in that what he was
saying, and I think you pickedup on that. And what you shared
with what was really valuableabout how it's important to to,
to reboot here and move forward.

Rohini Ross (52:50):
And in this next segment, you do address how
rehashing can kind of come up,when we get into a low mood.

Angus Ross (53:04):
This has been quite an a seismic eruption, let's say
that there will be someaftershocks that you know, both
of you will at points, we'll getinto probably a low mood or low
state of mind. And you'llprobably, you know, fill your
ear, you might even want tospeak from that place. But it's
kind of like, there is anopportunity, and we'll talk
about this, you know, when we doone on ones is to not take that

(53:28):
personally, because it's justour state of mind is dip for
whatever reason. And that, youknow, eventually we will start
to get an understanding ofthat's all that's going on. And
we will now be led by, you know,this new truth that surfaced.
It's like I love this idea offoundations, because it's almost
like you've retrofittedfoundations into a relationship
that was built on. I guesswithout that, that that level of

(53:51):
truth. You could say thosefoundations were pretty
unstable. But now you've kind oflike put in really stable
foundations to move forward. Andit's kind of a you look in that
direction. And you don't takethe illusionist of the
conceptual mind so seriously,when that crops up, which is
when we get caught up, we allget caught up in the I get
caught up. Probably got caughtup this morning for a little

(54:13):
bit, I don't know. But it's likewe don't take it personally. It
doesn't doesn't need to besomething that festers or
becomes a problem. But therewill be you know, don't expect
like you they will have thosemoments where you get caught up.

Mateo (54:29):
What does that looks like getting caught up.

Angus Ross (54:31):
Getting caught up is like where we you know, for
whatever reason we findourselves in a low mode, and
then we go looking for a fallguy we go looking for someone to
pin it on. And then it's anopportunity for us to not take
that seriously. It's just thelow mode looking for a for a guy
a low mood looking to articulateitself. Yeah, it's not who

(54:53):
either of you are is not who weare. who we are. is is is is a
design. That's great. In, Iguess I could get religious here
and say in the form of God, butin a sense, it's kind of like
you could use those words isthat consciousness is we're part
of that design, we're all a partof that design. And that is our
essential nature, one ofbalance, harmony and an innate

(55:16):
well being. And we look to thatwe don't look to what we stored
away in our supercomputer.

Rohini Ross (55:30):
I don't think we can ever teach or share too much
of low moods, because they're soimpactful on relationships, or
they can be so impactful onrelationships. But when we have
an understanding about how ourperspective shifts, when we're
in a low mood, it's a tremendousgame changer for relationships.

(55:54):
And I can really hear how Mateois concerned about what might
show up when Alicia is in a lowmood. But if he can really grasp
and understand that, that's justwhat happens to human beings,
and he doesn't need to take itpersonally, it doesn't mean
anything about him, is just areflection of her state of mind,

(56:19):
it'll be so much easier for himto write that out. And when it
does get to him when he doestake it personally, if he can
also understand that it's notabout her, he's just
experiencing his own judgmentsagainst himself, and that he
doesn't need to take thoseseriously, either. That's
another game changer.

(56:47):
And as painful as this learningexperience has been for both of
you, it's you know, from, from aneutral standpoint, it's all
part of moving towards healthand growth that how the
relationship was functioningpreviously, it couldn't grow any

(57:09):
more than that, because of thethe secret that was being held.
Because in order to grow, thatwould have to be revealed. And
that was you weren't ready forthat it was too scary,
understandable, given theenormity of how that felt inside
of you that it just didn't lookpossible to do that. But But

(57:29):
through this whole experience,that growth has been happening,
and what Angus is saying aboutthat foundation being there now,
like To me, this is theunfolding of the learning. And
as painful as it is to learnthis way. What's important is
the learning, what's importantis that you are freed up inside
in a way that you haven't beenever since that happened to you.

(57:53):
And that you feel that and thatwhat I also hear is that you
couldn't open your heart, youknow, you're having to hold it
together, you couldn't bevulnerable in ways. And so now,
just, you know, you feelingsofter and more warm and church
this morning, to me isreflective of you feeling like
that exhale, and that you can beopen again. And that you can

(58:15):
learn to trust that you canlearn that you can be safe in
relationship and thatrelationship would look very
scary from the foundation thatyou were coming at it from. But
now there's the opportunity toreally experience something new,
and different and fresh. And youcan do that with someone who
clearly cares a great deal aboutyou and is wanting to learn and

(58:38):
grow to. And that you know,that's really what you both
want. But with with that extrainternal space, you're going to
have the capacity to learn in away that you couldn't learn
before. And that's going tosupport the relationship. And
rather than having sort of thatnegative spiral that was going

(58:59):
on before where Alicia would getreally reactive and you would be
cut off. It's like with thatspace, you get to create
something that's positivelyreinforcing. And yes, you know,
Aliciagonna still have herpersonality traits, you're gonna
still have yours, you might needa little quieter than she needs
it. But it won't be the extremepolarization that you guys were

(59:22):
going through, it'll be easierto navigate those differences,
and to not take them personally.
In our work with couples, weoften see when they perceive
that they're in a relationshipcrisis, it's actually really an

(59:46):
opportunity for healing andgrowth that shows up in that
packaging. And sometimes couplescan think that it means that the
relationship is over that it'stime to move on. And that can be
the case at times But no matterwhat, whether relationship stays
together, or whether a coupledecides to separate, there's

(01:00:07):
always learning and growthavailable during those times.

Angus Ross (01:00:13):
And the fact is, what do we what are we here for,
as human beings, spiritualbeings having this human
experience, if not to grow andlearn, and I guess,
relationships is probably goingto be one of the greatest areas
for growth and learning.

Mateo (01:00:32):
You should feel safe, I'm going to be faithful to you,
I don't ever want to go throughthis again. And I want, I want
to be the best partner to youthat you can get. And I believe
I have it within me and withinus to provide that environment

(01:00:55):
for each other. Just been reallyshitty. I really hope that we
can just grow from this and notlook back and just forward.
Yeah.

Angus Ross (01:01:12):
The other thing that's so cool about this is
that it frees up so muchcreative bandwidth for you as an
individual and you too, as acouple,

Mateo (01:01:21):
I do feel it, just kind of blown away still? Okay, I
thought I was gonna take thisone to the grave with me.

Rohini Ross (01:01:35):
That piece about self forgiveness is key. You
know, like, that's somethingthat you get to experience for
yourself. And Angus is gonnasupport you with that, that's
available for you, because Iknow you're, you're unburdened
that there's still some burden.
Now that you know, this has beenshared. But really, there's a
clean slate available, therereally is a clean slate

(01:01:57):
available, where it's fresh, andyou don't have to hold on to
anything, and you don't have tofeel bad about your behavior.
I'm not condoning. But I knowhow unhealthy it is to have to
live an experience of holding onto this. And just as Alicia was
saying, she's not going to holdon to and she's going to set

(01:02:18):
herself free. that's availablefor you to try. Yeah. And it's,
it's you know, it's just one ofthose things where you get to
lay the burden down. But youcan't force a you can't make
yourself it will just berevealed to you. That that's
possible and available to you.

(01:02:38):
refreshed and renewed.Yeah.

Angus Ross (01:02:55):
The other thing that occurs to me to say, and, and
maybe this is the intelligenceworking through you guys too, is
that there's that old adage,that truth will always find a
way I don't know where thatcomes from. It's probably
biblical, I don't know. But in asense, it's kind of like, you
could say that all of this is ablessing, however painful and
uncomfortable it was go throughthe separation. This allowed you

(01:03:18):
to get to this point whereyou're able to unburden
yourself, and finally, releasethis story that has really been
bothering you for a long, longtime, and has probably been very
toxic for you to hold on to. Andnow it's out in the open that
has to be again, I say andreiterate that gives you so much
free bandwidth now. It's beenoccupied for a long time.

Mateo (01:03:41):
I hope so I know, it's it's felt better since we
talked.

Angus Ross (01:03:51):
The adage is, in fact, the truth will set you
free. And it is biblical. AndI'm pretty sure that this is
what Jesus said to thedisciples. I don't know which
particular gospel, it would bedocumented in. But I can say

(01:04:14):
that now certainty is somethingthat Jesus said to His
disciples. I don't know if I'mlooking for a pat on the back.
As far as that's concerned, welldone and thank you.

Rohini Ross (01:04:27):
And I think it was in his is john a gospel.

Angus Ross (01:04:31):
JOHN is the gospel.
I think it's in

Rohini Ross (01:04:33):
the Gospel According to john on how you
say,

Angus Ross (01:04:36):
Yes, I think john is perhaps most people's favorite
gospel. If memories if memoryserves me correct.

Rohini Ross (01:04:44):
Is there a favorite gospel?

Angus Ross (01:04:46):
I think so. I think John, I did I didn't realize I
did religious knowledge. I gotreligious knowledge at school.
I think I can vaguely remember

Rohini Ross (01:05:00):
Back to the truth shall set you free. That, to me
points to that capacity when welet go of judgment and when we
see the truth of who we are thatwe are undamaged and cannot be
tainted by our thoughts,feelings, behaviors that who we

(01:05:20):
are our innate essence is alwayspure. I think that's what sets
us free.
And just when we think we're inthe home straight, Mateo's never
wanted to disappoint with acurveball.

Mateo (01:05:51):
So think there was should spend some time like, apart, but
like I said, I want to like totake you like on dates and
stuff, you know, should get backto that. Are you okay with that?

Alicia (01:06:05):
Yeah. I mean, it's our journey, we'll have to figure it
out.

Mateo (01:06:08):
Like, how do you feel?
Are you sad right now you seemlike you kind of want to cry?

Alicia (01:06:12):
No, I'm not sad. I'm more like, I feel free in the
sense of like, you came out andopened up because for a long
time, I thought it was me.Yeah,that I'm not like this terrible

(01:06:32):
person in your life.

Mateo (01:06:33):
No. One will be fighting to get a terrible person back in
their life. No,

Alicia (01:06:42):
I'm not gonna lie. Like, I have a million questions. But
for my own mental sanity, Idon't even want to ask any of
them. Like, I don't want toknow. My human nature's does
have to protect myself. Like, Idon't want to.

Rohini Ross (01:07:00):
I'm curious. what are your thought you said? Do
you think it would be good tospend more time apart? I'm
curious, what are your thoughtsare around all of that?

Mateo (01:07:10):
I mean, I know that she's gonna have a lot of questions.
And I'm not sure that beingtogether in the same household
right now. And you may be havingthese questions like to just,
you know, I don't know, for me,it's gonna, like, maybe some

(01:07:30):
time to heal for that.

Rohini Ross (01:07:35):
I think, you know what I would say? Like, that's
something to really check out.
Cuz you're kind of assuming, andthat might be absolutely
accurate. But I want to, like, Idon't want to make an
assumption. So what what areyour thoughts on that?

Alicia (01:07:48):
I mean, if, if that's what you want to do to make
yourself feel comfortable, thenthat's your choice. Like I said,
for my own mental sanity, my ownheart, for me for my own self
care, I can't go there. Becausethat hurts. You don't want

Gonzo (01:08:08):
If you are describing the hurt though, like I, I've been
through and I don't want youholding on to that.

Alicia (01:08:14):
But that's what I'm saying. Like, I don't want to
address it or like, talk aboutit, or have it come to fruition
and like, be this energy with inour relationship. Like that's
past. I want to be away from allthat. Like, I don't know, I'm
going to ask you questions. Idon't want to know anymore.

Mateo (01:08:34):
Okay. Just, again, I know what it's like. to fucking you
put it like the dying withinyourself. And I don't want that
for you.

Rohini Ross (01:08:50):
Yeah, I don't think I'm not hearing you saying it's
like that famous show.

Alicia (01:08:53):
I don't think it is. I think like I said, weeks ago, I
put it into my head that you'vealready done this, and spoke
with God a lot and prayed aboutit and gave it gave up that
burden. Because I don't want tofeel that pain. And so I have to
forgive it. And I have, I'm fineto walk and move on from it. And

(01:09:18):
like I said, I'm not going toask you, I'm not going to bring
you up, because it also hurtsme. So in order to take care of
myself, I'm telling you verypoint blank, like shutting the
book on that story and don'twant to talk about it again.

Rohini Ross (01:09:36):
But you're not feeling like it's a burden to do
that. Right? You're not feelinglike you're holding on, you're
feeling like the healthy thingfor me to do is like I have the
information, but I'm not gonnadwell on it because that's not
helping.
Yeah, 100% I feel like I wasdwelling on it a moment because
I don't know the truth. Now, Ithink hearing the truth and just
having the knowledge of it, I'mjust like, Alright, got it,

(01:09:57):
understand it, move on from it.
Because I'm gonna take care ofmyself in this situation also,
and that's not gonna help me,it's gonna hurt me.
And so, Alicia , on your end, Iwanted to, you know, have a
little back and forth, or do youwant space and time for Mateo?
Like, what are you feeling likeyou need now that he's, you

(01:10:19):
know, shared? What was troublinghim and what's happen?

Alicia (01:10:24):
I don't? Um, because I don't believe that that helps a
relationship in a marriage. Ithink too much space creates too
much distance, and I can't seehow it would work that way. But
I don't know.
Okay, so you're saying that heneeds some space? And you

(01:10:47):
understand that and you respectthat? Yes. But for you, you're
saying like, Are you saying thatyou don't want that you don't
need it and actually like him tocome home? Is that what you're
saying? Yeah. Okay, so you'dlike him to come home? But if he
needs more time, you willunderstand? All right. So given
what she said, What is it thatyou need them?

Mateo (01:11:08):
I need a little bit of space. But I want to, like take
her out and drop her off athome, have a be happy, and then
you know, in due time, they comehome to a happy household. And,
you know,

Alicia (01:11:23):
What' s your timeframe on that.

Mateo (01:11:32):
What's my timeframe?

Alicia (01:11:35):
Like, how long do you think you need more space?

Mateo (01:11:39):
I'd say less than a month, I just want to like be
able to take you out, drop youoff at home happy and you know,
got some fun meals or dosomething and have a good time
and, and just kind of get inthat rhythm. You know, and, and
yeah, I know, to move back to isgoing to be the nights for you

(01:12:00):
know, you want to talk aboutlike, work like heavily or
whatever, and just kind of wantto ease in to, you know,
enjoying each other's company.
And then, you know, being in afull blown marriage again,
where, you know, we're just 24seven, you know, I just feel
like I want to get to the HappyPlaces first with us. And I

(01:12:23):
think we've been doing a prettygood job of that. Yeah, you
know, so I feel like that. It'sbeen making me feel really
comfortable. I've enjoyed ourtime, and I want nothing but you
know, every day to be like that,I know that it's not really
true, because I trust my kidsonly have like jobs and stuff.
But I do think that, um, youknow, that's I want to get there

(01:12:49):
sooner than later. That's forsure.

Rohini Ross (01:12:58):
I remember in the session, that I had a pretty
strong internal reaction tothis. And I felt it was a huge
red flag. And I really couldn'tbelieve my ears when he said
this.

Angus Ross (01:13:11):
Yeah, I think that I remember feeling why I felt
disappointed because I didn'tget, you know, like typical
Hollywood ending. We'restretching this out here,
another twist and another turn.
That was not anticipated. Butupon reflection, this is a guy
who does risk analysis for aliving. And I think that in his

(01:13:32):
mind, and I'm probably I'm sureI thought this at the time that
on one hand, I thought this atthe time that he is perhaps
anticipating that Alicia is isperhaps not realistic when she
says that she's gonna move onthat she's got such an inquiring

(01:13:55):
and inquisitive mind that she'sgonna want to know what happened
and might not be able to leavethat alone. So I think he's
probably thinking, yeah, maybeI'll just hold back for a really
move in. Everything's been takenalong so beautifully in terms of
us going on dates and havingdinner all the rest of it. Let's
continue this for a little bitmore just to be sure that that

(01:14:19):
things aren't going to unfold inanother way and go in another
direction. Go pear shaped butpear shaped as they say.

Rohini Ross (01:14:29):
Yeah, you're absolutely right. I just didn't
get it at the time. Yeah.
All of that allows you toblossom and thrive and really
live a full life. Like that'sthe fresh start.

Mateo (01:14:48):
Yeah, I'm hoping like that's the that's the goal of
all this, you know. breeze.
Yeah, yeah. Not feelconstricted. Yeah, you know,
that's giving me like astraitjacket. analogy. That's
how I feel when I came home.
Like, yeah, you played somepart, but a lot of it was what I
placed on myself, you know, so Ifeel liberated and I have been

(01:15:10):
feeling better. But I can onlyimagine that it just gets
better. And, you know, so yeah.

Rohini Ross (01:15:17):
And there's gonna be, you know, my emotions go up
and down. So there's gonna bethe dips and the bumps that
come. And that's why havinganger support you, as you
navigate this, especially overthe next month as you're getting
ready to come back together, Ithink will be really, really
helpful. Yeah.

Angus Ross (01:15:34):
And with this, understanding, the bumps will
become less and less is my, my,my belief anyway. Yeah. Yeah.
Because you've been looking at adifferent direction.

Mateo (01:15:46):
Yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready. I always get glimpses of
like, going positive. And thenit's just like, wait a minute,
this is who you are, turnaround.

Rohini Ross (01:15:57):
Yeah. The habit

Angus Ross (01:15:59):
was just oh, this is an old habitual pattern of
thinking. So in terms of, youknow, the biology, you got those
old neural pathways that, youknow, that can have the tendency
to kick in. But just and that'swhat I mean by the bumps,
eventually, you're looking atdifferent direction, develop new
neural pathways, yeah. Andthings will look significantly

(01:16:19):
different.

Rohini Ross (01:16:21):
And those new neural pathways are based on
your innate state, the old wayof going negative is actually
conditioned, not your naturalstate. So you've learned a way
to survive, and it feels normal,but it's actually not natural.
So what Angus is talking aboutis that you get, you get to get
back those neural pathways thatare the natural way, naturally

(01:16:43):
optimistic, naturally openhearted, open minded, naturally
spacious, because you're nothaving to protect yourself in a
way that you have been all thistime. Yeah.

Angus Ross (01:16:57):
I came up with this metaphor this morning. Well, you
know, like, where you go, do yougo on Netflix, do you on your
laptop, and you want to go backor find a scene and you you
scroll a cursor, and as youscroll back, you see all the
frames, and then when you stop,the cookie sort of the frame
gets bigger. It's kind of like,I feel like when we get into a
low mood, that's what ourconceptual mind is trying to do

(01:17:18):
is trying to match up a framewith that feeling. So the
opportunity is just to not takethat frame Seeley seriously, get
a sense, like I'm in a low mood.
And the frame that I want tolike hone in on is probably
getting bigger. getting biggeris not is not where I want to be
going. It's just a learn, get tothe mistrust that. And then
you'll always come back to youressential nature, which is one

(01:17:40):
of well being your frame willthen line up with a picture of,
I don't know, a VISTA of beautyand for hilltops and sunshine,
etc. But it's kind of like youknow what I'm saying? It's like
learning how to mistrust thoselittle bumps are going to crop
up, you're going to get into lowmood, it's inevitable. And
they'll be about, you know, be acorresponding frame. It's just

(01:18:02):
don't take it seriously. That'sreally for me, that's the
leverage point in relationship.

Rohini Ross (01:18:10):
Yeah, makes it so much easier. And it's so much
easier when we don't takeourselves too seriously when
we're not in a good space, stateof mind. And we don't take the
other person that seriously whenthey're not in a good state of
mind. I mean, just that initself makes it easier. It's not
personal. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

Angus Ross (01:18:33):
We should let you go and enjoy your day. Yeah.
It's quite funny to realize thatthat's the Genesis point of my
Netflix metaphor. And, and thenall the mileage that I've got
out of that metaphor, since Ididn't realize that. That was,

(01:18:55):
that was the day that I thoughtof it. That's quite funny.

Rohini Ross (01:18:59):
I think you probably use that metaphor in
every intensive we do.

Angus Ross (01:19:03):
I think I do what I do that is illustration, which
unfortunately, I can't do in apodcast format. But it's very
much a part of that illustrationabout how I define this
understanding. And so howinteresting that there was the
day that that it came intobeing. But it's been quite a
journey with these two. And I'mreally proud of all that they've

(01:19:27):
seen and how far they've comeand all that they've been
willing to do. And this day,above all others has been one
where they've really both beenable to wear their heart on
their sleeve and show up in avery vulnerable and open way.
And the fruits of that are thereto be seen or heard as the case

(01:19:47):
may be.

Rohini Ross (01:19:48):
Well, we won't draw this out any longer. We will let
you know how things work out.
We're going to just summarizethe final sessions after this
session With the four of us,there were a few bumps in the
road, one. On the bigger side,shall we say, where it was
taking Mateo longer to move inand the month that he stated in

(01:20:13):
the meeting, and Alicia gotpretty upset around that. And so
that seemed to prove Mateosconcern that it wasn't going to
work out for them to move backin together because of her
temper. But with support, theywere able to see that their

(01:20:33):
behavior was a reflection ofthem getting caught up and being
in a low mood and blowing thingsout of proportion. And with
some, a little bit of extratime, they were able to settle
and realize that they did wantto be together. So Angus, you

(01:20:54):
are getting your sentimentalending.

Angus Ross (01:20:59):
That's important to me.

Rohini Ross (01:21:02):
And in terms of our meetings with them, we supported
them through that period oftime. And we had a follow up
session after they'd been livingback together for a little while
just to see how things aregoing. And that was our final
formal session with them, wasn'tit?

Angus Ross (01:21:22):
It was Yes, yeah.

Rohini Ross (01:21:24):
And so in that final session, rather than sort
of taking playing the segments,I just took a few quotes that I
thought were indicative of howthings are going after they move
back in. Can I share those?
Yeah,

Angus Ross (01:21:37):
no, please do.

Rohini Ross (01:21:38):
Okay. So one of them was Alicia saying, It's
nice having my best friendagain, and enjoying a Saturday
on the couch, watching collegefootball, or literally doing
nothing or doing many thingstogether, I feel back in orbit
now. And then Mateo said, it'sbeen really good. Our
communication has been reallygood. Alicia's brother is going

(01:22:00):
to be proposing next weekend.
And Alicia wanted me to go. AndI think I communicated pretty
effectively my stance on that.
And at least he was able tolisten and process it, and then
come to me a day later, Ithought that was pretty cool. It
was totally out of the norm. Itused to be a Spitfire response
right away. So I thought thatwas very positive.

Angus Ross (01:22:19):
Excellent.

Rohini Ross (01:22:21):
And then a final one from Alicia. She says one of
the biggest takeaways for me isrealizing that we're two
completely different people. Andit's not that the way we do
things is right or wrong. Irecognize that Mateo is going to
do things his way. I've come toterms with the fact that we both
march to the beat of our owndrum. And instead of getting
upset, I find peace in harmonywith that. So I don't get spun

(01:22:42):
out over stupid things. That'sfantastic. Yeah. So when we had
that session with them, theywere doing really well together.
And we just said to reach out ifthey ever needed support. And
also they could reach out ifthey had any good news to share,
too. And so several monthslater, we started getting some

(01:23:03):
texts from them, or you got sometext, I think, or maybe it was a
group chat. I can't remember.
Yeah. And so one of them wasHappy New Year to you and Rohini
Words cannot describe thetransformation in my life with
Alicia. With that we head intothe new year with utmost
excitement. We wish we werethere to give you a big hug.
Happy New Year. And then a fewmonths after that. Hi, Angus,

(01:23:26):
hope you and Rohini are well,Alicia and I are hunkered down
celebrating our eight yeardating anniversary. Things are
wonderful. Since moving back in.
We thank you endlessly for that.
And then I didn't write thedates on these. So this was a
few months after that, I wouldsay and this is to you. Hey,

(01:23:49):
Angus, we were thinking aboutyou guys the other day. We are
due in December. But he can comeany day now. Sorry, we've been
disconnected. But I haven't beenfeeling very well. That was from
Alicia. And Mateo has been sucha trooper taking care of me, we
miss you. And we'd love toschedule a time to catch up with

(01:24:10):
you both. So you know how it iswith a new baby. We haven't
actually had the time toformally catch up with them but
we hope to at some point but wewant all of you to know that it
was quite the journey and we'reso grateful that they allowed us
to be with them on it and get tothem to this point where they're

(01:24:31):
really thriving and enjoying therelationship and their family.
And hopefully the understandingis gonna serve them well.

Angus Ross (01:24:43):
Yeah, they did get my Hollywood ending in the end.
You know what, what what bettergift for that and to be able to
have a have a baby. I think Butyeah, I felt really emotional

(01:25:03):
listening. listening to all thatI couldn't have read it without
falling apart. Yeah. Yeah.

Rohini Ross (01:25:09):
Yeah, no, it is really heartwarming and just for
full disclosure, I did cry whenI was listening back to that
session. But yeah, we reallyhope that you've enjoyed
listening to this series and weare going to answer the
questions that have come in. Inthe next episode, we'll we'll

(01:25:30):
get to some of the questionsthat you've asked. And we're
really grateful for you to be onthis journey with us listening
and we hope that you've learneda thing or two about yourself
about relationships about lifeand that you are feeling
rewelded through being on thisjourney with us.

Angus Ross (01:25:47):
Yeah, see you next time.