EP2: Playing the Blame Game

The blame game is in full effect as Alicia and Mateo each have their very separate realities and see the other party as wrong. Mateo blames Alicia’s temper for his habit of shutting down, and Alicia blows up when she feels like she’s the only responsible one in the relationship or the only one who cares. Their lack of empathy and understanding about the other person's point of view results in their polarization. This wedge between them helps them stay convinced that the other’s behavior is the cause of their suffering -- can Rohini and Angus help them find understanding?

From narrow and self-focused perspectives, Alicia and Mateo justify their actions. From this state of mind, their thinking is distorted and they can’t see the whole picture. As they move toward more open-minded and open-hearted feelings, they gain the opportunity to see each other differently.  Once they arrive in this space of greater trust, they access a more well-rounded perspective. The quality of their relationship actually reflects the quality of their individual states of mind.

This episode explores:

• The current status of Alicia and Mateo’s relationship.
• How Alicia and Mateo tell the tale of two different relationships.
• How a desire to protect optics in the face of friends and family can get in the way of being honest about what they are going through.
• How challenging it is for the relationship when both people feel discouraged.
• The importance of each person in the relationship having their own insight and transformation.
• The important role that the individual state of mind plays in order to open up to new possibilities.
• Initial sessions with Alicia and Mateo to begin hearing both sides.
• How common it is, and how detrimental it is, to keep a laundry list of woes.
• How many couples play the blame game.
• The challenges associated with volatility in relationships.
• How painful a lack of understanding can be.
• The negative impact of judgment in relationships.

Podcast music: Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area.

Ep. 2 includes selections from Violet/Balance and Blue/Calm

Show Notes:
Agent provocateur: one employed to associate with suspected persons and by pretending sympathy with their aims to incite them to some incriminating action. Also a British lingerie retailer.

Wood for the trees: If someone can't see the wood for the trees in British English, or can't see the forest for the trees in American English, they are very involved in the details of something and so they do not notice what is important about the thing as a whole.

Feedback: [e-mail]

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They work with couples who are struggling and couples who would like to deepen the love and intimacy they already have. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit:
always felt like we were reallypassionate and affectioned and
love each other beyond belief. Imean, we said I love you
literally our first date.

Mateo (00:27):
I love the girl. I know that there's episodes and
moments that I'm not in lovewith.

Rohini Ross (00:31):
The innate harmony, love wellbeing is actually
already there.

Angus Ross (00:38):
Hunky-Dory, I can't believe I just said that!

Mateo (00:40):
I think I'm gonna get the girl that I want all the time.

Alicia (00:45):
In any given moment, his vibe just changes. It's like
boom, like you hate me. All of asudden.

Angus Ross (00:50):
Feisty she is!

Mateo (00:51):
I want to be all in. I want nothing more than to have
this affectionate, romanticrelationship.

Angus Ross (00:57):
He's decided that he's got the moral high ground,
and she's absolutely batshitcrazy.

Alicia (01:03):
I'm tired of being the only responsible one. I almost
feel like I'm the man.

Rohini Ross (01:07):
The quality of the relationship is actually a
quality of the state of mind ofthe individuals in the
relationship

Alicia (01:14):
I don't understand where things went wrong.

Angus Ross (01:18):
You are listening to Rewilding Love with me, Angus
Ross,

Rohini Ross (01:23):
and me Rohini Ross

Angus Ross (01:24):
Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.

Rohini Ross (01:28):
We believe that love never disappears completely
in relationships. It can alwaysbe rewilded. Listen in as we
guide a real couple back totheir natural state of love,

Angus Ross (01:39):
Relax, and enjoy the show. Enjoy the show.

Rohini Ross (01:48):
Well, in the last episode, we heard about Alicia
and Mateo. How they met, weheard some of the backstory. And
we got to see how they have evendiffering opinions. Based on
their history together, Alicia'sis a much more rosy, optimistic
remembering, whereas Mateos is alot more troubled and he

(02:13):
demonstrates a lot more concern.
And in this episode, we'relooking at more current times,
and we're going to find out moreabout what's going on with them
currently in their relationship.

Angus Ross (02:25):
The Tale of Two Cities, or the tale of two
relationships, as it were

Rohini Ross (02:30):
One relationship from two points of view. Okay,
so let's hear from Mateo now.

Mateo (02:39):
This really hit home two months ago, where she's like,
you're not going to win thisargument. And we weren't even
talking about anything that waslike, you know, about us. It was
about God knows what, but I justremember that stuck with me. And
I was like, You know what, youjust hit the nail on the head.
And like, that's, that's whatour relationship is, is this.

(02:59):
You're right, I'm wrong type ofvibe. And that's not what I want
to be in.

Angus Ross (03:04):
Yeah, it's quite funny that he uses that term
hits the nail on the head, interms of that being this sort
of, in this sort of situationof, you're right, I'm wrong.
When, as far as I can tell, upuntil this point, it really
feels as though Matteo thinkshe's, you know, as I said,

(03:26):
before, has is occupying themoral high ground. And if only
Alicia would change, then therewill be the opportunity for this
relationship to fix itself. Soit's very much a case in my mind
that he's seeing that Alicia iswrong and he's right.

Rohini Ross (03:45):
And he gives the very definitive timeline of two
months ago when the divorcepapers were served. It sounds
like shortly after that, andit's, it's funny how these small
incidents are like the strawthat breaks the camel's back,
that there was that smallincident that, given the

(04:05):
timeline he's sharing here isprobably what pushed him over
the edge and then had him go tothat extreme reaction of getting
the divorce papers ready. Okay,well, we've heard both of them
share some of the backstory tothe relationship. And we're
going to continue to hear fromAlicia and Mateo now, but more

(04:28):
related to the current state ofaffairs in the relationship.

Alicia (04:34):
It is a happy home and you know, we have a dog that we
should early in my opinion, it'sa happy home, and I am happy 90%
of the time, there's 10% of thetimes that I'm either upset with
our current situation, becausein any given moment, his vibe
just changes and it's like,boom, like, you hate me, all of
a sudden, I'm like, Whoa, wheredid we get there We were
laughing five seconds ago. Andso that's kind of like where

(04:57):
I've been a little bit like it'sgotten in my head, I've
overthought like a lot of stuffnow, and I'm not that person,
I've gotten to a point where I'mlike, a little insecure. And
that sucks. But um, yeah, Ithink we see it differently. I
think he sees it as thedisgruntled roommate, whereas I
see it as like, this is my homeand my happy family. And like,
there are moments that's goingto be bad, marriage is not easy.

(05:19):
And relationships aren't easy.
And I think sometimes he hasthis depiction of love and life
as this little bit of a lalaland where everybody's just
madly in love, and there's noissues and there's flying
unicorns and stuff like that.
And I'm like, that doesn'texist, like reality is, we are
going to be faced with thingsdaily. And it's how you approach
them. And if you choose to facethat issue, and acknowledge it

(05:40):
and be upset in that moment, butthen move on. I think that's
very healthy. And I think that'sreality. I don't think it'd be.
I don't I think he has thisfacade of seeing on social
media, all these happy couplesand such. Or in life in the you
don't know what happens on...

Mateo (05:55):
I don't talk about social media. But keep going. Yeah.

Alicia (05:57):
okay, I'm sorry. So then, behind closed doors, you
don't truly know what couplesare going through. But in our
faces, yeah, we have our friendsthat are like loving couples and
everything. But I've also seenour friends have some blowout
fights too. And I don't thinkthat he gets to see that and see
that there's a lot of normalcyto all of that. It's not just me
being this problem.

Rohini Ross (06:18):
One of the themes that really jumped out at me was
seeing the different ways thatAlicia and Mateo viewed the
relationship. And so as welisten to Alicia, here, we hear
that she really sees therelationship as a good
relationship. It's normal. Yeah,they have a little bit of
conflict from time to time. Butthat's nothing to worry about.

(06:42):
And as you listen to her, itbecomes clear that in her mind,
Mateo has these unrealisticexpectations for relationship.
And that's really what needs tochange for the relationship to
get better,will you say?

Angus Ross (06:56):
Yeah, I was a little bit suspicious at the time. And,
you know, in deference toseparate realities that, but
Alicia was consciously sayingall the right things. And it
sounded like, you know, shecould see how this was pretty
normal, healthy relationship inthe way that you know, you can't

(07:16):
go through married life withoutgetting into conflict once in a
while. And that Mateo is makinga big deal out of it. So yeah,
early days, but you know, verymuch in case I am sure of
separate realities, as wewouldn't be in this situation
wouldn't be doing thisintensive. So I'm looking
forward to seeing what Mateo hasto say, because I'm sure it's
going to contrast what has justbeen to the table at this point.

(07:39):
But I do get a sense just kindof like saying all the right
things, we haven't really gotdown and dirty yet.

Rohini Ross (07:44):
You're acting as if you don't know what happened.

Angus Ross (07:48):
I try to keep it.
I'm trying to be tantalizingabout it. But but I do think
that, you know that this is acase of, you know, I feel like
at this point we are we'rereally well, I guess we haven't
really pulled back the curtainyet.

Rohini Ross (08:04):
So are you saying Do you remember feeling
skeptical about what she wassaying? At the time?

Angus Ross (08:08):
I felt like yeah, it's like, I remember when I
felt like when we were in, wewent through therapy, when men
went through merit maritaltherapy, I felt like you always
had the right surgical orpsychological terminology to
use. And I felt like that sortof "Oh, she's really
ingratiating herself towardsthis therapist". I'm kind of
like, I'm losing my edge here.

Rohini Ross (08:30):
Gee, I dont think that's not what she was doing...

Angus Ross (08:32):
I guess I was having a bit of a flashback there. It's
like she was like, it was like,portraying a relationship that
was already in pretty goodshape. She wasn't really, you
know, getting into the gettinginto the weeds as it were, which
is something that you know, inmy experience doing these
intensives we often findourselves in a situation when we

(08:53):
first get together with a coupleand it's very much a case that
the laundry list of woes comesout. And that's not what this
look like at all. This is likeyou know, his his relationship
is pretty normal and healthy.
And we do get into trouble oncein a while.

Rohini Ross (09:08):
So it for you, it felt kind of like she was being
A student and yeah, not beingauthentic.

Angus Ross (09:15):
Yeah. Like you'd like to be the A student.

Rohini Ross (09:20):
All right.

Angus Ross (09:20):
Yeah. It's like you like you being the teacher's
pet. She's been a bit like ateacher's pet in my mind. That's
probably really unfair. Butthat's kind of how I feel.

Rohini Ross (09:34):
Well, we are getting here from a ton now and
yes, you're right. He does havea different and, you know, for
him the the conflict is notsomething that feels normal, and
it's renowned really feels veryturbulent for him. So what we'll
get to hear from him now.

Mateo (09:58):
I want to be all in. I want nothing. More than to have
this affectionate romanticrelationship where you know,
you, you're with your bestfriend, I want that. But it
seems like a lot of the time,it's two friends, I get in a
fight and can't get over it andhe should spend the day apart.
Right? That's a lot of our daysshould be like, Hey, we should

(10:19):
take a break and set it apart.
So the things that I want arereally aligning with what's
taking place in ourrelationship. And that's where,
you know, I feel this confusionin emptiness of like, what am I
doing right now? Like, is itever going to get better?

Angus Ross (10:36):
Yeah, from what you can hear, he sounds pretty
discouraged. And then hecontinues to speak in those
terms.

Mateo (10:43):
I think it's been a combination of the way that we
talk to each other that kind ofmade it numb, you know, even to
the point where it's like, youknow, reading cards, birthday
cards, Christmas cards, anythinglike that doesn't mean anything
to me, because I know the nextday, there's going to be
something that totally wipes outevery word that was in those

(11:04):
sentences.

Angus Ross (11:05):
Yeah, so listening to Mateo, I get the sense that
in his world, his separatereality, but they are very much
in a constant state of discord.
And that that would definitelynot be in alignment with what
Alicia shared. And that. Yeah,it seems like as far as the

(11:27):
relationship is concerned, Mateostate of mind is not a
particularly positive one, he'sgot very much into a habitual
pattern of thinking around whatthe relationship looks like. And
he doesn't seem or sound likehe's very hopeful at this point.

Rohini Ross (11:44):
Yeah, he definitely sounds very discouraged. And he
also in his comments is sayingthis has been going on since
before we even got married. Thishas been going on since before
we were engaged, this has beengoing on since we were dating
long distance. So in his mind,he's saying this as a long term
challenge that it isn't justsort of something that's come to

(12:06):
a head recently.

Angus Ross (12:08):
Yeah, it seems pretty dim and bleak at this
point, as far as he's concernedanyway.

Rohini Ross (12:14):
So we really have Alicia, who's sounds very
optimistic about therelationship and doesn't really
see what the big deal is. Andthen we have Matteo who's very
downhearted, and really justdoesn't see me, we have a lot of
hope, feeling pretty dismalabout the relationship. So

(12:34):
there's two people seeing itvery differently. So after we
had this group meeting with thefour of us, we then split up,
and we did most of the work asone on one with Alicia Mateo.
And we do the couples workseparately, for a lot of the

(12:56):
relationship intensives that wedo, because it really gives the
individuals the opportunity toshare what's on their mind, not
be concerned about what theother person is going to think
about it. So they can be reallyopen. But we also recognize that
the most important part of thework is that the individuals

(13:17):
have a transformation that theyexperience and that the quality
of the relationship is actuallya quality of the the state of
mind of the individuals in therelationship. So that's one of
the reasons that we split up sothat we can really help each
person achieve a new level ofunderstanding within themselves.

Angus Ross (13:36):
Yeah, and I also think, you know, you'll
absolutely agree with this, I'msure is that we, we work with
them individually, because atthe very beginning, when we do
give them the freedom to speaktheir mind, as it were,
generally there's a wholelaundry list of woes and, and in
that experience, the feelingtanks. And what we're finding is

(13:59):
that that really, the shift, ifit's going to happen will happen
when there is a better feelingwhen there's a better feeling.
People are much more open tohaving insights and can get
perspective and contest and cansee they're much better equipped
to see how they can moveforward. But in that experience,
that laundry list of woes reallyat people obviously going to

(14:20):
kick that kind of more thanlikely be quite reactive. And
it's very difficult to hear whenyour partner is kind of slamming
you every time. And that'sreally there's just really
nothing fruitful that can comeout of it. And we do allow
obviously we need to startthere. But in a sense, that's
not where the magic happens.

Rohini Ross (14:38):
Yeah, that there is a kindness in the design of
separating couples that at thispoint, your aim.

Angus Ross (14:44):
Yeah.

Rohini Ross (14:49):
So we're going to kick off next then with me when
meeting with Alicia and this isgoing to be our initial meeting
or I sit down with her one onone. And you're going to hear
that, you know, she gets prettyemotional about how stressful
it's been for her. And shereally can't understand how they

(15:10):
got to this place. And therelationship that, you know, she
finds herself in right now.

Alicia (15:18):
Sorry, I'm a little excited.

Rohini Ross (15:20):
Just let it all out.

Alicia (15:21):
Yeah. It just been like rough with them. Like, there's
not something that transpired.
Which is what's the mostconfusing because I don't know,
like, usually I'm a very, I'mvery type A. So I know, I can
figure things out and I canfigure out like, what happens.
So that's why this is throw mefor a loop because like, I don't

(15:42):
understand where things wentwrong. Um,

Rohini Ross (15:48):
do you want to Kleenex, there's some over
there.

Alicia (15:50):
I did not want to cry today. I feel as though it was
all of a sudden,

Rohini Ross (15:58):
yeah, yeah. So just tell me your experience.

Alicia (15:59):
I feel like it was all of a sudden I feel like and

Rohini Ross (16:02):
When was this?

Alicia (16:03):
I feel like the tipping point was in August when I went
back to back traveling for twoevents. And then he went to
South Dakota for work. And myissue has always been when I
travel was like the he doesn'tcare to know where I'm at , what
state I'm in, or what hotel I'mon, like, and I'm a five foot

(16:23):
two woman like by myself in ahotel room. I'm yeah, and I'm
just like alone for an extendedperiod of time in a hotel room
and or working long hours, andit's stressful. And when I want
to call him and talk to him atthe end of the day, it's like
quick like, Okay, well, you knowwhat, I'm gonna watch TV and
calm down. And then I'm gonna goto bed. And I'm like, three
minute conversation out of the24 hour day, and I've been gone

(16:46):
for an extended period of timeand like, like, he kind of feels
like home to me. So I was like,I wanted to like talk to him.

Rohini Ross (16:52):
Yeah.

Alicia (16:52):
And so we started fighting a lot. And then a lot
of it was because of him notwanting to communicate with me
while I was on the road and mefeeling like you don't know
where I'm going like, you don'tknow what plane I'm on. You
don't know any of that. Andthat's just so hurtful. And I
grew up with a family thatprobably over communicates then
what's needed.

Rohini Ross (17:12):
So you used a very different style.

Alicia (17:14):
Yeah. And I'm used to a lot of passion and love and
fights as well. Like my parents.
Yes, they fought in front of us,but nothing to the point that's
like, extreme but also in mysiblings, and I fight like
that's just what it is. But thenwe two seconds later Kissin
makeup or when the going getstough like I remember in, in
high school, middle school, likemy brother and sister were all
tears apart. And we went toschool that was like

(17:35):
kindergarten through 12th. And Iremember like, one day my sister
and I are like in this blow upfight. I don't even know about
what it could have been like ahair scrunchie I swear. So it's
so stupid. And I remember inthat moment, someone was picking
on her whatever. And me and mybrother just like jumped in on
that. And I remember everybody'ssaying like, Whoa, you don't
mess up. It's like, jeez. Andthat's kind of like how I've

(17:56):
always viewed like, becausewe're so passionate. And when
you're passionate, sometimes youdon't state things the right way
or, or act the right wayaccordingly. But I've always
just dropped things.

Angus Ross (18:10):
Feisty she is! She definitely comes across as
somebody who wears their hearton their sleeve. And is painting
a picture of quite a passionateyoung woman. And evidently, from
what she what she shared, Matteois finding that problematic from

(18:34):
time to time. And but yeah,nevertheless, I think that she
takes great pride in the factthat that's how she's showing up
in this world. And obviously,she has a family that perhaps
support that, that that kind ofbehavior, and that it's maybe a
little bit jarring for ahusband. But time will tell

(18:58):
we'll see she obviously, youknow, as we all do, we always
want it we all want to connectbut the connection, I don't know
if that's being compromised bylevel of passion. But that's
something that she needs. Shefeels like that's not being
nurtured in a way that's healthyfor her. But I'm curious to see

(19:20):
where this is gonna go in termsof what Matteo is gonna have to
share on this front.

Rohini Ross (19:25):
What do you mean about not being nurtured in a
way that's healthy for her?

Angus Ross (19:30):
I feel like she's, um, she's wanting to connect.
And, and for whatever reason,it's hard for Matteo to fulfill
that need, at the level thatshe's she's wanting or whatever
expectations that she has aroundthat. It's not being is not
being met. And I suspect thatcould be maybe something to do

(19:53):
with volume control, resolve thelevel of passion got it, but
he's perhaps from what she said.
taking things a little too,personally. And that's maybe
where the disconnection, perhapsit's coming from?

Rohini Ross (20:06):
Yeah, well, what we're doing here is we're we're
allowing each of them to sharetheir side. And your right from
what she's saying she sees theissue in the relationship as the
issue of lack of communication,lack of concern for her, that
she's taking very personally,she finds that hurtful. And, you

(20:29):
know, it's very clear from thisexample, that she sees her anger
as just a healthy part of herpassionate nature, that isn't a
problem for the relationship,she doesn't see that as
something that should threatenthe relationship. In fact, from
the example she gave, it soundslike she has that passionate

(20:52):
conflict connected with love andintimacy. And so for her, that's
normal. And we're going to hearfrom Matteo, but it sounds like
for him, that's not normal. AndAlicia seems to feel like he's
just overly sensitive and needsto get over himself and be able
to drop it the way that she justdrops it and moves on. And she

(21:12):
can't understand why he's notable to do that. And as we'll
hear from Matteo, now, hedoesn't find that refreshing to
that she can just drop things,he actually finds that really
crazy making that she's able todo that.

Mateo (21:26):
It's a storyline, I'm telling you like, it's really
messed up, she wrote me a cardon my birthday, 30, things like
that I love about you that sameday, blowout boom, like, I can't
control it's obviously me beingdistant, right? It's causing her
to feel this way, and createthese blobs of it could be about

(21:47):
anything, but I know what theunderlying reason is, is because
we don't feel connected as one.
So you know, she, we had thatblow up and and I just like, you
know, laugh The next day, right?
Because the next day, she wakesup clean slate she I don't know,

(22:09):
it's like Groundhog Day, everyday. It's not for her. For me.
It's not like that. So I wake upthe next day, and she's feeling
alright, and I, you know, justlike, Hey, you know what, you
should probably read that cardand think about yesterday how,
you know, things and and she'sreading and she's crying. And
she's realizing, right, but andshe's saying that she's saying
sorry, when that happens all thetime. That's not a one time

(22:30):
occurrence that happens all thetime where she says some really
hurtful stuff. And the nextmorning wakes up crying,
apologizing. But then two dayslater, we'll do the same thing.

Angus Ross (22:40):
Yeah, so I listened to that. And apart from anything
else, it seems as though Mateois keeping an inventory of all
of Alicia's transgressions. Andhe's obviously taken her
behavior very personally. And italmost seems as though he's just
on the lookout for it. Now, it'sgot to a place where it's become

(23:00):
so habitual, the lens throughwhich he sees this relationship.
And malicious behavior is kindof like, it's kind of like he's,
he's gunning for it. He'slooking for it at every
available turn. And he's just,he's just not seeing how she's
not responsible for. For hiswell being she's seen as this,
this agent provocateur designedto mess with his well being.

Rohini Ross (23:26):
Yeah, I definitely hear that as well, where Mateo
feels as if Alicia's behavioris basically ruining his
experience, and I think that'svery common among couples, for
that blame to come out. And, youknow, I know that we have had
that experience at times wherewe will blame each other for

(23:49):
ruining our mood or, or doingsomething along those lines. And
so I definitely hear that hear.
And I also hear that, you know,he just sounds very discouraged
by this and doesn't really seeany possibilities in terms of
where change might like wherehis experience might change,

(24:09):
unless she changes her behaviorwhen say,

Angus Ross (24:14):
Yeah, no, absolutely.

Rohini Ross (24:16):
And so, in terms of their communication, Matteo is
really struggling with Elisevolatility and her ability to
get over her volatility. He'snot able to drop it as easily.
And it's, it's like he'sbasically holding a grudge

(24:38):
hanging on to resentment.

Angus Ross (24:39):
Yes, absolutely.
Because for some reason, bestknown to himself, he's decided
that he's got the moral highground, and she's absolutely
batshit crazy.

Rohini Ross (24:54):
Well, that's one way that you could say it. I
don't think I would say it thatway. But I'll let you say that
he does definitely paint apicture of Alicia being pretty
unstable. And I think we'll, youknow, as we listen to this next
section where matea shares itdoes come through even more

(25:19):
clearly they're where he reallyfeels that he's right. And she's
wrong that, yes, they do seethings differently. And people
live in separate realities, buthis reality is the right one and
her reality is the wrong crazy,irrational one

Mateo (25:35):
I'm more the realist in every situation, okay. I mean,
you also got to think of what Ido for a living, I do risk
analysis. Right, right. And I doextensive background checks and
people, I approach everysituation like people are lying
to me. So I mean, that's mynature.

Angus Ross (25:53):
Okay. So you feel like there? Is there a sense
that sort of what Alicia wassharing this morning didn't feel
particularly authentic to youor?

Mateo (26:03):
Not that it's not authentic? I don't know.

Angus Ross (26:05):
Just suspicious in some way.

Mateo (26:07):
No, not suspicious. Just.
Sir. My reality is different.

Angus Ross (26:12):
All right. All realities are different, I
guess.

Mateo (26:16):
Right. But I also can't acknowledge to when we, you
know, like, if two people aren'tgetting along, right. I think a
reasonable person would be like,Hey, we're not getting along.
The other person just we'regetting along. You're just not
trying hard enough. And that'sthe big disconnect.

Rohini Ross (26:39):
Well, I think with this introduction to Alicia and
Mateo, we're starting to be ableto put the dots together in
terms of how they're each seeingreality and what the differences
are. Whereas Matteo is seeingalyssia as irrational and

(27:01):
volatile, negative, difficult.
Alicia Singh, Mateo isinsensitive, unkind, uncaring,
distant, and it's just becomingclearer and clearer how they're
each seeing things differentlyand believing what they're
seeing to be truth. And we'vegot this example of this

(27:24):
incident that happened rightbefore they came to see us. And
each of them in their ownsessions shares about that
experience and, and in hearingthem share about it, you get to
see more clearly the lensthrough which they're looking at
the relationship through.

Angus Ross (27:46):
Yes. They, they obviously have that very
separate realities. And then intheir separately separate
realities. The other party is100%. Wrong.

Rohini Ross (27:58):
Well, let's hear from Alicia now we'll hear her
side.

Alicia (28:04):
I'm tired of being the only responsible one. I almost
feel like I'm the man. Yeah.
Okay. So in that relationship,and like, something like
yesterday, where I've startedgetting turned off to like, just
being in love and some. Mygirlfriend convinced me like not
to be that way and sort of buylike a Valentine's Day card
because I wasn't gonna do it.

(28:27):
There's like he said, he doesn'twant to open cards that that's
not and she told me, she wasjust like, just do it. You know,
what's the right thing? This islike the last try. And I was
like, fine. I was like, I don'teven want to do this. But okay.
And I did. And they wrote justthe guy. Happy Valentine's Day
card. I got him a little, youknow, heart chocolate. hmm. And
he saw yesterday morning, andthen came home, and was like,

(28:51):
empty handed. And he came late,and he knew was a priority for
us to get here. And he's tellingme like when I called him and
it's like, six somethingalready. He's like, well, it's
normal time for people to leave.
And I told everybody that I hadto leave early. I was like, This
is not a normal time to leave.
And that's not leaving early.
And I was like, I thought thiswas a you know, priority. And
then when he got home, and itwas he was literally empty

(29:11):
handed. He didn't even want toread the card. And until like, I
exploded, of course, cuz I'mlike, you could even pick a rose
pedal off from the street, ortake a piece of like printer
paper and just write HappyValentine's it like, it's like,
it doesn't take much to make mehappier. Make me feel good. Like
if you scribbled on a piece ofpaper, Happy Valentine's Day

(29:33):
came home with that, like Iwould have melted. Yeah, yeah.
But then I said, I startedyelling at him and like, you
couldn't even go get me a card.
You couldn't do nothing. Andhe's like, well, we're not a
normal couple. So I don't wantto do these things. And like,
that's hurtful. Yeah. Because Iknow we're not normal right now.
But I still went out of my way.
Yeah.

Rohini Ross (29:52):
Yeah.

Alicia (29:53):
So it's like things like that where it's like I've never
thought of like I'm the onethat's always thinking taking
care of him and cooking dinner.
Be responsible. Yes. This hasbeen for a long time. He doesn't
think of me. He doesn't try todo something nice for me.

Angus Ross (30:08):
Okay, well, let's let's hear from Mateo now.

Mateo (30:13):
Yesterday, right Valentine's I didn't get a card.
Stupid. She told me she didn'twant to get me a car, one of her
friends forced to give me acard. Okay, so why am I such an
asshole for not buying a card,right? Just because I didn't
have a friend who forced me togo buy a card. Okay, whatever,
I'll live with it. But shewasn't going to come here. She
was like, No, this is what youwanted. I was gonna actually

(30:33):
come here to tell you that Iwanted to divorce. Like, okay,
whatever. She said, She's lividjust like going up yelling,
throwing shit, boom, boom, boom.
And then I did I matched herintensity, and I hit her glass
of wine off the table hit thewall shattered. That moment
there. That's what she wanted tosee. And right then she was

(30:54):
like, Okay, fine. I'll gobecause I matched her intensity.
Had I not? Had I been neutral.
never would have happened. Wenever would have been here. But
you wanted to see me angry? Shewanted to know that. You know, I
don't know what it is. Maybeit's because I don't show enough
passion. She wanted to see thatthere was still passion fire

(31:14):
within me. But it's, it'sexhausting to me. I don't like
doing that. Yeah, like gettingangry. I used to be very angry.
And now I try to just not be

Angus Ross (31:25):
Wow, two realities, that could not be more separate,
I might say. The gloves are off,are they not in terms of what
they're describing? Those two,two different polls. And they
are very much polarized, itseems. And I guess that's why

(31:45):
they're here doing business withus. And we'll see where this
goes. But you know, you can seehow they're both very caught up
in their positions. And fromthose positions, never the twain
shall meet, I say,

Rohini Ross (32:00):
Absolutely. And this incident that they
describe, to me is, it's justfollowing on from the theme of
these whole two introductoryepisodes where we're kind of
giving you the backstory, andhelping you understand where

(32:22):
they're at currently. Butthroughout all of that, you
really get to hear theirseparate positions and separate
points of view as they'rediscussing all of that. And I
think it's really helpful toshare that. Because when most
couples get into trouble,they're oftentimes living in

(32:44):
their separate reality, nothaving understanding about the
other person's point of view.
And, as you said, they getpolarized and how they see
things and it can get verynarrow, focused and limited. And
we we justify all of ourbehavior and actions based on
that very limited point of view.

(33:07):
And it becomes like a selffulfilling prophecy.

Angus Ross (33:12):
Yeah, I don't know, for me, I'm picking up on that
term that use narrow focus,because what's interesting to me
is that in the in the sharing,they are obviously getting into
position or mindset or state ofmind that's very adversarial,
and judgmental. And that whatwe're pointing to is in that

(33:35):
kind of state of mind, it's veryhard to see how you can really
summon up any kind of any kindof optics that would see the
relationship in a positivemanner. You know, they're not
even, there's no way that hewould get philosophical, if I
guess a couple came to us. Andit could be philosophical and
neutral about where therelationship is working, is not

(33:57):
working. So that would be awhole different story. But
because the relationship is notworking really, from this state
of mind, that's what we reallywant to look at, we are trying
to point our listeners and alsothis couple in the direction of
them seeing how it's all aboutstate of mind. So they're
actually transposing their stateof mind, on to the relationship

(34:22):
or more importantly, on eachother. So they're making the
other party responsible for howthey're feeling inside. And what
we're going to attempt to do isflip that around, try and find a
way for them to see how there'snothing about what's happening
in the external world andparticularly in the context of
their relationship that isaffecting their thinking about
the relationship. So if we cansomehow create a situation of

(34:46):
understanding about that veryfeature, then that's really
where we need to look. Andthat's kind of be you know,
that's gonna be where we willtake this this podcast,
ultimately.

Rohini Ross (34:58):
Yeah, we're gonna be looking more. Excuse me, in
that direction in the nextepisode. And I also want to kind
of highlight what you're sayingabout judgment and narrow focus
judgment is another way ofnoticing that we're getting
really narrow focused, and themore we are in judgment of
ourselves or our partner, wecan, we can feel that we can

(35:19):
feel the limiting, constrictingfeeling of being in judgment.
And as soon as we're in thatstate of mind, as you're saying,
we're not seeing the fullpicture, our thinking is
distorted. And when we're moreopen minded, open hearted, that
feels very different to us. Andwe can trust that we're seeing a

(35:43):
more well rounded viewpoint fromthat internal experience from
that state of mind. And so whenwe're listening to Lacey Mateo,
we can hear how caught upthey've got in their own
judgments toward each othertoward themselves even. And they
can't see clearly from thatspace, they're not able to even

(36:08):
see themselves clearly and mostimportantly, their disconnect,
disconnected from the deeperaspects of love, and compassion
and empathy that really are thecore qualities of who they are
as human beings, who we all areas human beings. And so the more

(36:28):
they move into judgment, themore anybody moves into a
position of judgment, thefurther and further away they
get from the experience of loveand compassion and empathy,
which are so crucial torelationships working.

Angus Ross (36:43):
Yeah, well said, I think that for me, yes,
absolutely. It's this idea offinding a way to become open. I
don't know, I like the idea ofthis narrow focus, because you
can see how that's very much theantithesis of what it means to
be open, to be open minded, andperhaps look at the relationship
through a different lens. Butthis particular lens, which is

(37:06):
so narrow, is not seeing thefull picture is just seeing, you
know, a picture that is reallyfilled with dismay and
heartache. And, and they can'treally see the wood for the
trees at this point.

Rohini Ross (37:18):
Mmhmm. That's a good expression. And so we're
hoping that as you're listeningto them share their experience
that you're taking that intoaccount that you're recognizing
that the version that they'resharing is the version of the
moment, it's the version thatmakes sense to them at this
point in time, but it's not theonly version is not even the

(37:41):
only version they see is justthe version that they see when
they're not feeling veryhopeful, and discouraged and
downhearted.
Thank you so much for listeningto rewilding love. If you
enjoyed this podcast, please letus know by subscribing on
iTunes. And we would love foryou to leave a review there.

Angus Ross (38:02):
iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who
need help with theirrelationships.

Rohini Ross (38:07):
If you would like to learn more about our work and
our online rewilding community,please visit our website,
therewilders.org

Angus Ross (38:16):
Thanks for listening. Join us next week.