November 23, 2020 • 40 mins
Though Alicia and Mateo are on guard with each other, Rohini and Angus begin to explore the deeper feelings of love and wellbeing present in both of them. Mateo vacillates between the loving feelings in his heart and the pestering thoughts in his mind, as Angus helps surface a glimmer of Mateo’s true feelings for Alicia. Alicia expresses her admiration for who Mateo is as a person -- she wishes he saw himself the way she sees him. Can they start to trust their wisdom over their judgments?
As Alicia and Mateo struggle to find common ground, Angus and Rohini support them in recognizing the seeds of love that are still present and ready to be rewilded.
This episode explores:
- How Alicia and Mateo’s experiences are subjective and a reflection of their mood in the moment, not the other person.
- How both Alicia and Mateo feel justified in their positions and decide the other person is responsible for their suffering.
- Finding the seeds of love in the relationship and bringing them into focus to support the rewilding of love.
- How Alicia and Mateo need to remember what love looks like and to arrive at seeing where there is still love in the relationship, rather than focus on what's not working.
- What is going to help Alicia and Mateo find common ground?
- Inner wisdom always points us toward love.
- Holding space for the innate wisdom, well-being, and love in each of us to unfold.
- The importance of where you are coming from when entering a conversation.
- How it is easy to make up our own story about what is going on with the other person when there is a lack of communication.
- Helping them to see that the other person isn't responsible for their suffering by looking at where their experience really comes from so that they can feel more empowered and less victimized in the relationship.
Podcast music: Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area.
Ep. 3 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity.
Show Notes:
What Is the Difference Between a Crevice and a Crevasse?
The difference between a crevice and a crevasse is more than just a few letters. It’s the difference between geology and glaciology. While both terms come from the Anglo-French word crevace, to break, they mean two different things. Crevices are cracks or splits caused by a fracture of a rock, while a crevasse is a deep fracture in a glacier or ice sheet.
Stalker: Can refer to still-hunting, which involves moving as slowly, quietly, and inconspicuously as possible, so you will see the deer before it sees you. Or you know, more commonly can refer to a person who harasses someone with unwanted and obsessive attention.
Feedback: info@therewilders.org
Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: TheRewilders.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Angus Ross (00:05):
Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a
couple on the brink of divorce.
Rohini Ross (00:12):
This is episode number three, finding common
ground and rewilding love.
Mateo (00:18):
I may have just made the biggest mistake of my life.
Alicia (00:20):
I didn't get married to like, have uncertainties. I
always felt like we were reallypassionate and affectioned and
love each other beyond belief. Imean, we said I love you
literally our first date.
Mateo (00:30):
I love the girl. I know that there's episodes and
moments and I'm not in lovewith.
Rohini Ross (00:34):
The innate harmony, love well being is actually
already there.
Angus Ross (00:40):
Hunky dory, I can't believe I just said that.
Mateo (00:43):
I'm gonna engage and I'm gonna get that girl that I want
all the time.
Alicia (00:47):
In any given moment, his vibe just changes and it's like,
boom, like you hate me, all of asudden.
Mateo (00:52):
I want to be all in. I want nothing more than to have
this affectionate romanticrelationship.
Angus Ross (00:58):
He's decided that he's got the moral high ground.
And she's absolutely batshitcrazy.
Alicia (01:04):
I'm tired of being the only responsable, like I'm the
men. I don't understand wherethings went wrong.
Angus Ross (01:11):
I think I'm on the mood for another metaphor.
Rohini Ross (01:16):
Is it a boxing metaphor?
Mateo (01:18):
To look like the energy I see behind her eyes, like I know
that she has these moments whereshe's the greatest person in the
world.
Rohini Ross (01:25):
If you're gonna keep using boxing analogies, I
might have to startunderstanding boxing,
Alicia (01:29):
didn't get married to get divorced.
Mateo (01:31):
I can tolerate all the different types of abuse that
I've, you know, been through. Ithink that he is suffering from
some sort of depression.
Rohini Ross (01:39):
She's ultimately sensing that there's more going
on than meets the eye.
Mateo (01:43):
Is the juice worth the squeeze? You know, there's a lot
of squeezing, not getting muchjuice out of it.
Angus Ross (01:51):
You are listening to Untamed with me, Angus Ross,
Rohini Ross (01:56):
and me Rohini Ross.
Angus Ross (01:58):
Untamed (Rewilding Love) is a podcast about
relationships.
Rohini Ross (02:02):
We believe that love never disappears completely
in relationships. It can alwaysbe rewilded listening, as we
coach a real couple back totheir natural state of love.
Angus Ross (02:14):
Relax, and enjoy the show.
Rohini Ross (02:25):
The journey with Alicia Matteo continues, does.
And when we left off with themlast time, it was pretty clear
that they each have their ownversion of reality that feels
absolutely true to them. Andthey feel very justified in
their position. And one of theirpositions they feel justified in
(02:47):
is that they see the otherperson as responsible for their
suffering. There isn't a lot ofunderstanding of each other and
each other's experience becausethey're so polarized. And rather
than being able to get settledand have some perspective on
(03:08):
their relationship and on eachother, they're more caught up
and listening to their own innernarrative that's based on their
own fears and concerns andresponding accordingly. And
because of that the rapport inthe relationship is going
downhill because their behavior,both of their behavior can be
(03:28):
very hurtful at times.
Angus Ross (03:31):
Yeah, I mean, I have the impression of two
prizefighters going back totheir perspective corners and
feeling like they've made allthe shots that they want to and
they probably got a few pointsup on the board. And, and
really, they'll just see wherethis goes. But it's in a sense,
it's kind of like, we're at thispoint, it feels like we're at
(03:51):
the end of round one. We don'treally know where this is gonna
go. We'll see.
Rohini Ross (03:57):
It's true. we're stepping into the unknown. And I
really acknowledge them fortheir courage and being willing
to step into the unknown withus.
Angus Ross (04:03):
Yeah, no, they are.
I mean, they're extremelycourageous in the sense, just by
virtue of the fact they've evenagreed to do this.
Rohini Ross (04:09):
Absolutely.
Angus Ross (04:10):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (04:11):
And so even though all of that is going on, part of
our responsibility in our job,is to really look for where the
seeds of love are, and therelationships so that we can
really bring focus to that andsupport the rewilding of love
(04:32):
and their relationship with eachother.
Angus Ross (04:34):
Yeah, that's, that's, that's the part that I
really enjoy. It's kind of beinglike, I don't know, what are we
sort of, we an ecologist, kindof pull out some seeds of love
or, or our detective trying tofind out where it is?
Rohini Ross (04:51):
Yeah, we have to have a good eye for it. Because
sometimes it's hard to
Angus Ross (04:53):
see sometimes it's very hard to see certainly in
all that. We know with all thatnegative sentiment that we've
witnessed Last fall.
Rohini Ross (05:01):
But I have to say this one segment that we're
going to play next Angus, Ithink you did an amazing job of
really helping to point Mateo inthe direction of seeing the love
and really, you know, doing yourbest to try and have him focus
on the love versus all of thethings that are wrong in his
(05:23):
eyes with the relationship. AndI would definitely say, given
how he entered the intensive,you had a harder job of that
than I did. Because Alicia wascommitted to the marriage. She
didn't want it to end. But Iwould say you had your work cut
out for you with Matteo in termsof helping him see the seeds of
(05:44):
love, wouldn't you say?
Angus Ross (05:45):
Yeah, I would say if we're gonna, or if I'm gonna
continue with boxing analogy.
You're not are you? He had hisguard up. He had a very good
plan, and
Rohini Ross (05:56):
he was gonna stick to it. If you're gonna keep
using boxing analogies, I mighthave to start understanding
boxing.
Angus Ross (06:02):
If you have thoughts, maybe this would be an
education for you. Okay.
Rohini Ross (06:06):
All right. Well, let's hear that segment with you
Matteo. Now.
Angus Ross (06:12):
Just Can I interrupt for a second? Because I'm well
that's what I'm really curiousabout. Because given all that
you said that said that's likelooks like a pretty hard life.
So I'm now curious about what itis the that you you know, that
you feel connected and bonded,in a sense of an I know that you
you, you have this intention,and you want this to work out?
(06:35):
But what is it that you see thatyou love that you that that kind
of brings you joy and delight,
Mateo (06:41):
she has this energy behind her eyes, and her smile,
that's literally like, like akid in there is it seems like
there's no damage behind that.
And you just get that inglimpses.
Angus Ross (07:10):
That's okay. So, the emotion that's coming up for me
just waiting for I'm sitting,just suggest that there is there
is a there was quite a deeplove,
Mateo (07:25):
there definitely is, but the glimpses are not getting us
through, you know, and theglimpses like that, that energy
that I see. Behind her eyes is,is becoming like numb to me.
(07:53):
Yeah, I mean, it just feelslike, um, it just feels like it
doesn't exist anymore. And, andthe glimpses that I do see, I
just catch myself thinking,like, it's total bullshit, like,
in an hour, you're gonna bebitching about something, or God
knows what but like, like, I'mso jaded. That I feel like I'm
(08:16):
jaded in my life. And I seelike, the, this innocence, and
just not, it's not carrying methrough anymore. Because I know
what's going to transpire. And,you know, a couple minutes, an
hour a day, like just, it justjust No, it's like, it's like,
(08:37):
looking at a beautiful scenery,and just, and wanting to live
there and in like, set, youknow, your build a home on a
foundation, but you know, that,you know, somehow you know, that
there's a missile going topropel itself from the hillside,
it's going to be gone. Right? Soyou're just like, what's the
point of even enjoying it?
Angus Ross (08:56):
Well,let me let me, let me go somewhere with this.
Because, you know, when westarted, and I said, you know,
this is good news, because it's,it feels very workable, in a
sense, the emotion that justcame up, that's really that's
real, that's palpable, that's,there's almost there's a
spiritual quality to thatthere's something very deep and
(09:18):
meaningful in that emotion. Andthat what I'm going to be
pointing to, that's kind of youressential nature, that's our
essential nature as human beingsis that is that, that that, that
that desire, and need to beconnected at that level, we kind
of all one word, operate at thatlevel, that magic sweet spot
(09:39):
where we feel love, particularlyin a relationship. And in a
sense, what I'm going to bepointing to what I was alluding
to the fact that this is goodnews is that you may think that
those are just sort of few andfar between and maybe they are,
but that's kind of like yourinnate essential nature. That
that that part of you that feelsthat Love the rest of it, this
(10:03):
is the good news. And this maynot seem even feasible at this
point in time, but the rest ofit is just stuff that we make
up. That's the kind of thebullshit that we make up all
those narratives that we buildup over the course of time.
That's what we're gonna, youknow, that's what we're gonna
really point to this weekend.
It's just, it's just turningthat on its head. Well, I think
(10:23):
I mean, I'm in the mood foranother metaphor.
Rohini Ross (10:32):
Instead of boxing metaphor, okay.
Angus Ross (10:36):
We're gonna be accused of mixing my metaphors.
I don't know. Well, you know, Idon't want you probably don't
know, I think the only reason Iknow is that my brother brother
went and did this a long timeago, I hasten to add, I don't
know if he'd be still a mindsetto do something so brutal. But
years ago, he went on vacationin Scotland, and went deer
(10:59):
hunting. I really, and part ofthat experience is that you get
assigned what I think isreferred to as a stalker. Not in
the modern kollywood sense ofthe word, but in the traditional
sense of the word. And thatstalker basically helps the
(11:23):
person with the gun, go and findthe deer.
Rohini Ross (11:27):
But they're there like a tracker?
Angus Ross (11:30):
I guess you could say that they have some tracking
skills.
Rohini Ross (11:32):
Okay.
Angus Ross (11:33):
I don't know where stalking or that verb. I don't
even know really what it means.
I don't know,
Rohini Ross (11:38):
just so I understand the person that goes
with your brother is there tohelp him find the deer?
Angus Ross (11:42):
Yes.
Rohini Ross (11:43):
Okay.
Angus Ross (11:43):
They have skills, and they know where the deer
are. Okay. And they know thetelltale signs were to look. And
so in a sense, that's my rolewith Matteo I am that stalker,
but I am a stalker for love. Andmy sole objective is to get that
(12:05):
in His sight, or his sights, hisgun sights as it were, and, and
help him look in that direction.
And it was very cool in thatexperience to just suddenly
realize that our he saw it,because the emotion really
conveyed that he somethingreally registered at a very deep
level. That was kind ofexciting.
Rohini Ross (12:27):
Yeah, it was really powerful to hear the depth of
his feeling and how much hecares about Alicia, like, that's
just really obvious. When heallows himself to drop in.
That's what comes up. But thenhe pops up very quickly back
into his story about how bad itis with her What's wrong, and he
(12:50):
just goes there very quickly.
But he did settle that a littlebit. And it was really, right
there, just how much he caresand how much she's hurting and
how much he misses her, and howmuch he misses the relationship
the way he knows it can be andto go along with your stocking
metaphor, that you have to bereally persistent with him. And
(13:11):
and you know, we'll we'll sharethe next clip. But even though
he was able to touch into thefeeling and connect with the
love in a way, he popped backout, and so you had to be
persistent and kind of helppointing him in the direction of
love.
Angus Ross (13:29):
Yeah, no, thank you.
I thank you for noticing that. Ithink that those are the moments
where I just feel like thiscanned applause is sounding off
in my head. And yeah, I did feelthat there was that moment where
he was starting to drift away,he was losing, he was losing,
you know, his tension was goingelsewhere. He has been slept
sucked over back to the darkside. But I had to, you know,
(13:50):
try and pull him back.
Rohini Ross (13:54):
And we have to remember that oftentimes, it's
feels very vulnerable for peopleto be in their emotional
experience. Many people aren'tused to, especially men. I'm
going to stereotype here. Butoftentimes men are not
comfortable. In the morevulnerable feeling states,
they're sort of suicidallyconditioned not to go there. And
(14:17):
so it can, you know, I'm notsurprised that he's not able to
stay there very long.
Angus Ross (14:22):
Yeah, no, actually, in a sense, I was really shocked
at that sudden level ofvulnerability. So the fact that
we went there for any length oftime for me was was quite a win.
Yeah, in the grand scheme ofthings.
Rohini Ross (14:35):
Yeah. And so here we'll listen into the next part
where you're sort of rememberingto you're assisting him in to
remember to come back and lookin the direction of love to see
what his wisdom is actuallypointing him towards and that's
really what you're going to bedoing a lot this intensive.
Angus Ross (14:56):
Yeah. I'll be there on my shoes. Stick, waiting for
the action to unfold.
Rohini Ross (15:04):
I hope you come up with a less violent metaphors.
Angus Ross (15:11):
What's keeping you in this relationship is that you
on some level, there's somewisdom within you that seeing
her innate mental health, it'sseeing, you know, the love
that's behind her eyes orwhatever, however you're
articulating, on some level,you're seeing her essential
nature.
Mateo (15:28):
Yeah.
Angus Ross (15:29):
But if you're, if you're going to sit there and
say, you know, she had kind ofdefining her along, you know,
how she showed up in yourrelationship, that's not seeing
that there's something that'sholding you in place something
that's keeping you in thisrelationship based on what
you're saying?
Mateo (15:46):
Yeah.
Angus Ross (15:46):
And that's what you kind of got to open up to?
Mateo (15:49):
Yeah, I'm here because of, because of her and wanting
to have those glimpses of like,Oh, my God, like, we are the
greatest couple on this earth.
Angus Ross (16:02):
Do you feel that?
Mateo (16:05):
I know,
Angus Ross (16:06):
You've had a few experiences that.
Mateo (16:08):
I haven't felt that in a long time, I have felt more
lately, like, God, we can be sogreat, and we don't have to fake
it. Like we're faking it, right?
That's what I'm feeling now.
Before it was like, Oh, my God,you and I, like, we could
conquer anything. Like, this isso great. Now it's like, oh, my
God, like, could but even theglimpses that we have now or are
(16:32):
so fake, like, we're so fake,hasn't been anything real. In a
long time. And that's where I'mkind of having these thoughts of
like, how much longer you gonnahave to fake it for, you have to
fake it forever. You know, if itgets better, like, how much
(16:52):
better is it gonna get? And it'snot changing. And it's not
changing, because there's not ababy here. It's not changing,
because any of that stuff. It'sjust not changing because of who
she is, and possibly how she wasbrought up. Yeah, but it's
witnessed as a child, I don'tknow,
Angus Ross (17:09):
When you say things like, it's who she is, is kind
of like, that's almost like thesame as the therapist saying
that this client of mine isbroken. It's kind of like you're
not seeing her innate mentalhealth. But what's at odds with
that is the level of sentimentthat came up when you when I
asked you, you know, to sort ofhighlight some of the things
that are positive about therelationship. There was a real,
(17:30):
there was something that wasvery heartfelt that came very
president was very, very obviousto me. So it's kind of that's
what I'm so curious about is isthat is that that's kind of
what's key seems like, I wouldhave to believe that that's
what's keeping you in it.
Gonzo (17:45):
Well, I mean, I guess you do the same thing is like, Hey,
if you're, if your mom wasverbally abusive to you and your
sister, like, why do you sayit's like, well, that's my mom.
Right? Well, here it is, is whyyou staying and it's like, two
does look like the energy I seebehind her eyes. Like, I know
that she has these moments whereshe's the greatest person in the
world. That's what keeps me in asame thing I can, I can tolerate
(18:08):
all the different types of abusethat I've, you know, been
through, been subjected towhatever, however you want to
say it. I can withstand allthose things. But the, you know,
I'm a man now. And I get tochoose what Yeah, how I interact
with people, how people, I letpeople interact with me. So
(18:28):
that's what is causing me tomove away from, oh, you know,
we're married, is it going to bea forever thing to maybe this
isn't going to be foreverything? Right? But what's
keeping me in is is that like,Oh my god, like this, this girl
is great. Like, look at hereyes, look at this, her genuine
smile, when it does occur tophenomenal it brightens up a
(18:52):
room, but at the same time,it's, you know, is the juice
worth the squeeze, you know,there's a lot of squeezing, not
getting much fucking juice outof this shit.
Angus Ross (19:07):
He certainly has a way with words, I'll give him
that.
Rohini Ross (19:10):
He's got his own metaphors.
Angus Ross (19:14):
I mean, it's quite an interesting dance in the
sense that I'm trying to keephim on point in terms of looking
at the direction of the love.
And really, for him to getthere, he has to find that
vulnerability within himself.
And so, you know, it may be myfault, maybe that for him, it's
(19:37):
very uncomfortable to get tothat level of vulnerability. But
you can see how he's just sortof getting back into his
defenses, which obviously, youknow, are intellectual in the
way that he's seeing therelationship and that level of
feeling that was there and wasso palpable, as I said before or
(19:58):
said in the in the The soundbite, he has now gone back into
a show in a sense. And now I'vegot to really find a way to get
him back out. And I guess I lookback on that, that that specific
exchange and realize that Icould maybe I've done a better
(20:18):
job of not letting him get backthere so quickly or for him just
seemingly, he feel like hereally got back in his shell.
And it ultimately was in a veryhumorous way.
Rohini Ross (20:32):
And humor is one of his strengths. It is also one of
his defenses to and I don't, Idon't think that you didn't
handle that in the right way. Ithink that you're, you know,
we're really simply they'reholding space and the innate
(20:55):
health, the innate wisdom, theinnate love in the individual
working with it's going to comeforward in its own time, and
we're not there to make ithappen in any certain way.
Angus Ross (21:05):
Yeah. Yeah. No, my guess I felt like I was just
hanging on for dear life. And hewas falling back into the abyss.
Yeah.
I thought it was humor.
Rohini Ross (21:14):
Yes. It was quite funny.
Angus Ross (21:16):
It was.
Rohini Ross (21:17):
So now we're here a little bit from Alicia. And as I
said before, my work was alittle easier in the sense that
at least he was fully committedto the relationship and really
want it to be in the marriage.
And so we'll just hear a littlebit from her about that.
Alicia (21:38):
My vows, I wrote my vows, and I literally said, that
I wish that you can see methrough your through my eyes. So
you can see how special Yeah,yeah. And that's what I truly
feel and believe in like, I'lltrigger me because I'm like,
he's so amazing. Yeah. And Ihate when he gets down on
himself. And I hate when he hetalks down on themselves, or
(22:00):
talks poorly about his body orhis self. And like all this,
it's like, you're so smart.
You're so brilliant. You're soso like, it does bother me,
because I'm like, you don't seeit.
Rohini Ross (22:11):
Yeah, you see how amazing he is.
Alicia (22:13):
Yeah! And there's times when like, I'm feeling low about
like, say my job or myconfidence levels, and like, he
does build me up. And then I'mlike, okay, like, Yes, I have
somebody on my team. And it'slike, I get upset that he
doesn't see that, like, I'm onhis team, rooting for him, like
in there with him in thetrenches. And yeah, it's feeling
very hard. And like, I don'twant to not be in I want to I
(22:34):
like I fell in love with thisperson. I didn't get married to
get divorced.
Angus Ross (22:40):
Yeah, I mean, listening to that it kind of
breaks your heart. You. And forme, also, I think, in a sense,
you know, we talked in the lastepisode about separate
realities, that it's as if eachpersonality has these two
separate realities. So we listento a Teo know, and being very
(23:06):
judgmental about therelationship on the one hand,
and then on the other hand, isthis sort of beautiful level of
sentiment that's coming fromcoming from a vulnerability that
we haven't, you know, that wehaven't yet seen up until that
point. And then, and then youhave Alicia, who's, you know,
now just, she's, in a sense, Ijust want to match the
(23:28):
personalities that come forwardin that level of vulnerability
and let them have aconversation, if we could sort
of magically, you know, bringthem together, when they're in
that space, you'd think thateverything would be resolved in
one fell swoop. But then theyget back into their corner, they
get back into their judgment.
And, and that's where thedifficulty lies. But, but the,
(23:49):
but the love is obviously there.
Rohini Ross (23:54):
Yeah. Sorry. I was having trouble following you for
a second. In terms of the whowas matching with who, but what
I understand you're saying isthat if Mateo could speak with
Alicia , yeah, when they're bothin the space of vulnerability,
then that would be a reallybeautiful conversation.
Angus Ross (24:11):
Yes, definitely.
Rohini Ross (24:13):
And that, unfortunately, what's been
happening is that they haven'tbeen meeting each other from
that place. And they've beenhaving conversations from the
what you're calling the otherpersonality from, from the other
state of mind where they're moredefended, and angry and upset.
And those conversations aren'tgoing well.
Angus Ross (24:32):
Yeah. And the defenses are up. His guard is
up. Yes. A little jab here andthere. Yeah, well choose my
moment to do that.
Rohini Ross (24:41):
Absolutely. And then she has her guard up and
the various explosions thathappen between them, all of that
is not coming from that place ofopen heartedness, that place of
love that's really there forboth of them. Yeah. And so Next,
we're going to be looking moreat the common ground that they
(25:04):
do have, even though they'rehaving trouble seeing it for
themselves, it's really clearthat there have a lot in common.
And they're both suffering. Andthey're both feeling quite
lonely in the relationship.
Angus Ross (25:18):
Yeah, that's it, isn't it that the both
suffering. And yeah, you canimagine that you're right about
that, that feeling lonely? Very,very intuitive of you.
Rohini Ross (25:31):
Thank you.
Alright, so let's listen toAlicia.
Alicia (25:39):
Doesn't like to talk at all, like, the communication is
really bad, it's very surfacelevel, then he doesn't want to
get deeper. And I've tried torespect that. But at the same
time, as a human, I'm like,that's abnormal. So he doesn't
really share too much. I thinkthat he is suffering from some
sort of depression that he's nottruly aware of. Mm hmm. Um, I
(26:02):
think a lot of it stems fromlike his childhood, where,
because he's used abandonmentwith me before. He said, like,
I've abandoned them, and his dadabandoned them. So I think it's
a lot of that stuff, a lot ofpressure that he puts on himself
when it comes to finances whenit comes to life when it comes
to where you have to be.
Rohini Ross (26:21):
So with Alicia, she's really feeling the lack of
communication with Mateo andmissing, being able to connect
on a deeper level with him. Andin her dismay, about how things
(26:41):
are unfolding, you can hear thatshe's trying to figure out
what's behind all of that, andstarting to put her own story
together, based on what sheknows.
Angus Ross (26:55):
Yeah, it's kind of interesting, from the point of
view that she's already, youknow, he's accusing her probably
of being quite of a sped upindividual. And you can see how
she's transferring her focusfrom them being able to have
some kind of level of verbalinteraction to now it's a very
(27:16):
much a sort of internal processfor her where she's just getting
really caught up in her herpsychoanalysis of the situation,
which I'm sure ultimately isgoing to be proven to be
erroneous. But what she did, youknow, that's kind of all she's
left with, she's, she's unableto communicate with him. So all
she's left with is the inventionthat's coming from her
(27:38):
imagination.
Rohini Ross (27:39):
Right, she's putting dots together that may
not go together. But what Ithink is important to notice
that there's, when she's talkingabout this, she's she's feeling
her pain and suffering becauseof the lack of communication.
But I feel like she's trying tounderstand him. And like you're
saying, based on the lack ofcommunication from him and her
(28:02):
trying to understand him, she'smaking things up as she goes
along. But she's ultimatelysensing that there's more going
on than meets the eye.
Angus Ross (28:10):
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of beautiful in a sense
that she's she is seeing thepsychological innocence, even
though she not she, she probablyisn't aware of those terms yet.
That's what she's a senseessentially doing in a very
organic way. She's, she'slooking towards his suffering.
And that's pretty, it's prettyremarkable. All things
(28:33):
considered.
Rohini Ross (28:34):
Yeah, I that's what I wanted to point out that even
in her suffering, she was ableto see that he's suffering and
that his behavior in some wayshe's saying his behavior is a
reflection of the fact that he'ssuffering.
Angus Ross (28:47):
Yeah, that's pretty astute observation.
Rohini Ross (28:50):
Yeah, yeah. And then in this segment with Mateo,
he really is just very upfrontabout how he is withdrawn and
his communication and that'ssort of his coping strategy
right now.
Angus Ross (29:04):
See what's afoot with Matteo.
Gonzo (29:10):
I, I can't tell you I mean, you know, my off putting
emotions with you know, certainthings has led to me being more
distant relationship not beingromantically involved in
sometimes even just beingmindfully absent or absent
altogether because like yousaid, I create this narrative
and now when I just entered myhome, I don't feel that I can
(29:35):
relax I feel like I'm you know,in a straight jacket all the
time and you're right when Ilook at her now, it's kind of
just like, I don't have that Ihave built up this narrative and
even if, you know nothing hasoccurred that day that would
make me feel the way that I dowith like the no resentment, but
just the played out storyline.
Yeah. I've done that and who hasevery right to feel also lonely
(30:02):
in the relationship because Iknow I haven't done what I would
want to do. That's, that's whatirks me the most is, I want to
surprise someone, I want tocuddle up with someone, I want
to give them warmth, and, andyou know, the feeling, but it's
just, I'm so pulled back fromthat at this moment that it even
(30:22):
makes me feel sad that I can'thave that emotion with anybody.
Angus Ross (30:30):
Well, you, you look at this, and you hear Mateo. And
for me I can see where Aliciais coming from in the sense that
she's now got preoccupied withsort of trying to psychoanalyze
the situation. And really,that's all she's left with, in
the sense that here is Mateowho's putting up his barricades
(30:53):
and decided I'm going toextricate that I got to
extricate from my myself fromthe situation, I can't do it
physically. But I can do itemotionally. And I can cut off
all forms of communication onthat level. And, and there's
this sort of misguided notionthat that's going to keep him
somewhat protected, when inactual fact, that's actually
(31:13):
taking up a lot of energy,there's a lot of bandwidth taken
up with that very purpose thathe's decided to take on board
for himself. So here's a here'san individual has decided to
take that stance. And then hereis Alicia, who's who's kind of
left with her imagination, andjust trying to figure out what
on earth is going on here inthis man's mind. And, and that
(31:36):
must take its toll, too,obviously, it takes its toll.
And that's also taking up a lotof bandwidth. So here, we have
two individuals who areexpending a great deal of
energy, you know, in a veryunnecessary way. And so for me,
also, when I consider this isthat we have worked with other
couples who can really spend agood deal of their married life
(31:58):
showing up in this way. And wewill refer to that as an
unhealthy normal. So let's hopewe've we're going to be able to
nip this in the bud fairly earlyon. But you can see the
beginnings of what is obviouslygoing to look like a very
unhealthy normal if theycontinue in this vein.
Rohini Ross (32:13):
And I think that's a really good point that you're
making, that it takes up a lotof energy to stay polarized.
Because when couples are inconflict, they often don't
realize how much energy isrequired to stay in the anger to
stay in the resentment to stayin the upset to fuel everything
that's needed to maintain thepolarization. And that it's
(32:35):
actually easier to relax intoyour natural state and be kind
and loving and warm and openhearted with each other. But
it's oftentimes invisible topeople, just like you said with
Matteo. He's thinking that hislack of communication is keeping
him safe, that that's his copingmechanism, the way that he's
(32:58):
trying to protect himselfemotionally, that takes a lot of
energy, and he's suffering. Heeven says, I want to cuddle. I'm
not showing up the way that Iwant to show up. And that's
painful for him. His copingmechanism is creating suffering
for him not just in terms of theramifications in the
relationship. And you know,Alicia's outbursts, that's her
(33:21):
best way that she can figure outto let off her steam. But
ultimately, that's draining aswell, that's not just draining
on him that's draining on hertoo. So, you know, it's clear
that they are polarized, thatthey're not seeing that it's
actually much easier to not bepolarized.
Angus Ross (33:40):
Yeah, well, well, fair that, you know, I don't
really have anything to add tothat. That's just, you know,
that's the situation that isthey've definitely polarized in
no uncertain terms. And, and atsome point, someone has to take
the high ground, in a sense, Ifeel like Alicia, you know,
really has enabled herself tomaneuver itself in that
direction, just by virtue of thefact that she, she shared some
(34:05):
of her concerns about where hemay may, she may be able to see
her his suffering.
Rohini Ross (34:11):
Yeah. So in terms of where we're at with them,
now, we've done some intake, andwe're learning more about what
they're polarized on. And evenat this point, we've, you know,
you especially Angus, did yourbest to point in the direction
(34:33):
of where the love is pointing inthe direction of what is working
and, and the tendency for eachof them is to focus on what's
not working to focus on thenegative. And of course, that's
what they expect to do. That'swhat they've done in the other
therapy that they've gone to.
And so the it feels normal to goto the long list what you would
(34:57):
call them The laundry list, thelong list of things that they
feel are wrong with arelationship and aren't working.
And to use your metaphor, we'reactually asking them to get
familiar with what love lookslike, and to track the love or
stuck the love, but to, toreally see where the love is
(35:20):
still in the relationship. Andrather than focusing on what's
not working, to help them toremember and see where the love
is, and to remember that they dolove each other, because even in
the little snippets that we'veshared, it's really clear that
there are segments where it'sobvious how much they care about
(35:41):
each other.
Angus Ross (35:44):
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. I guess, you
know, for us moving forward, wegot to get Mateo to somehow
realize that this, this stanceof feeling like he needs to
batten down the hatches andhunker down in his his glorious
position, or not so glorious,because it position as the case
may be, is a fool's errand thatit's just gonna create more
(36:06):
suffering, he's really kind ofcreated this container for
himself, which is justultimately going to suffocate in
at some point.
Rohini Ross (36:13):
Well, the good news is that they both do want love
and intimacy, they both saidthat, they have both at times
Express compassion, at least shehas expressed compassion for
Matteo feels like he'ssuffering, he's expressed
compassion for her recognizingthat his behavior is hurtful. So
they, they have that care foreach other, it's just difficult
(36:35):
for them to maintain in a day today way. And really, it's going
to be for both of them, to takethe higher ground, to both for
both of them to see what otherpossibilities are available to
them in the relationship. And inthe next sessions, what we're
going to be looking at, ishelping them to see that the
(36:57):
other person isn't responsiblefor their suffering, we're going
to be looking at where theirexperience really comes from, so
that they can feel moreempowered and less victimized in
the relationship, we're going tobe looking at how their
experience of reality issubjective. And it changes based
(37:18):
on their mood, and helping themto see when they can trust their
thinking and when they can'ttrust their thinking. And so
rather than working on fixingany of these relationship
dynamics, what we're going to dois we're going to help them
understand how their minds work.
So with that understanding, theycan connect more fully with
their own innate health, theirown innate well being their own
(37:41):
innate resilience, and to feelthe truth of who they are more
fully. And from there, see howthey proceed the relationship at
that point?
Angus Ross (37:57):
Well, at this point, I guess I should reevaluate this
idea of using the metaphor of usbeing stalkers. Because I think
if we're going to talk aboutgetting them to the higher
ground, probably the role thatwould be better suited to
explaining what we have to dohere is that we're more like
shirtless. This point, we'veprobably got our land rover to
(38:18):
the bottom of the mountain. Andthey've got all their equipment
out for us to see. And now we'vegot to figure out where to
establish base camp and thenplot our route to the summit.
And we'll see, we'll see howthat goes. But at this point, I
have to say I'm a little bitsuspicious that Matteo is going
(38:40):
to struggle with a side div, butat least here is not the root
cause of all his suffering. Ithink that that's going to be
somewhat challenging, but wewill see maybe I'm wrong. Maybe
I'm right. I don't know. But Ican see how that's definitely
going to be a very big part ofthis journey, and maybe the
(39:01):
greatest crevice for us tonegotiate our way across, we'll
see what happens.
Rohini Ross (39:07):
Is it crevice or crevasse?
Angus Ross (39:10):
Well, I think because you've spent time in
France might be inclined to callit crevasse, which sounds very
high brandy, but I'm pretty surewhere I come from lightining
secret? Nearly so.
Rohini Ross (39:27):
I thought you know, climbing reference.
Angus Ross (39:31):
I was using a climbing reference.
Rohini Ross (39:33):
I guess we'll have to look that up to
Angus Ross (39:35):
put it in the footnotes.
Rohini Ross (39:38):
Show Notes,
Angus Ross (39:39):
excuse me in the show notes.
Rohini Ross (39:49):
Thank you so much for listening to Rewilding Love.
If you enjoyed this podcast,please let us know by
subscribing on iTunes and wewould love for you to leave a
review there.
Angus Ross (40:00):
iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who
need help with theirrelationships.
Rohini Ross (40:05):
If you would like to learn more about our work and
our online Rewilding Community,please visit our website,
therewilders.org
Angus Ross (40:14):
Thanks for listening. Join us next week.
Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a
couple on the brink of divorce.
Rohini Ross (00:12):
This is episode number three, finding common
ground and rewilding love.
Mateo (00:18):
I may have just made the biggest mistake of my life.
Alicia (00:20):
I didn't get married to like, have uncertainties. I
always felt like we were reallypassionate and affectioned and
love each other beyond belief. Imean, we said I love you
literally our first date.
Mateo (00:30):
I love the girl. I know that there's episodes and
moments and I'm not in lovewith.
Rohini Ross (00:34):
The innate harmony, love well being is actually
already there.
Angus Ross (00:40):
Hunky dory, I can't believe I just said that.
Mateo (00:43):
I'm gonna engage and I'm gonna get that girl that I want
all the time.
Alicia (00:47):
In any given moment, his vibe just changes and it's like,
boom, like you hate me, all of asudden.
Mateo (00:52):
I want to be all in. I want nothing more than to have
this affectionate romanticrelationship.
Angus Ross (00:58):
He's decided that he's got the moral high ground.
And she's absolutely batshitcrazy.
Alicia (01:04):
I'm tired of being the only responsable, like I'm the
men. I don't understand wherethings went wrong.
Angus Ross (01:11):
I think I'm on the mood for another metaphor.
Rohini Ross (01:16):
Is it a boxing metaphor?
Mateo (01:18):
To look like the energy I see behind her eyes, like I know
that she has these moments whereshe's the greatest person in the
world.
Rohini Ross (01:25):
If you're gonna keep using boxing analogies, I
might have to startunderstanding boxing,
Alicia (01:29):
didn't get married to get divorced.
Mateo (01:31):
I can tolerate all the different types of abuse that
I've, you know, been through. Ithink that he is suffering from
some sort of depression.
Rohini Ross (01:39):
She's ultimately sensing that there's more going
on than meets the eye.
Mateo (01:43):
Is the juice worth the squeeze? You know, there's a lot
of squeezing, not getting muchjuice out of it.
Angus Ross (01:51):
You are listening to Untamed with me, Angus Ross,
Rohini Ross (01:56):
and me Rohini Ross.
Angus Ross (01:58):
Untamed (Rewilding Love) is a podcast about
relationships.
Rohini Ross (02:02):
We believe that love never disappears completely
in relationships. It can alwaysbe rewilded listening, as we
coach a real couple back totheir natural state of love.
Angus Ross (02:14):
Relax, and enjoy the show.
Rohini Ross (02:25):
The journey with Alicia Matteo continues, does.
And when we left off with themlast time, it was pretty clear
that they each have their ownversion of reality that feels
absolutely true to them. Andthey feel very justified in
their position. And one of theirpositions they feel justified in
(02:47):
is that they see the otherperson as responsible for their
suffering. There isn't a lot ofunderstanding of each other and
each other's experience becausethey're so polarized. And rather
than being able to get settledand have some perspective on
(03:08):
their relationship and on eachother, they're more caught up
and listening to their own innernarrative that's based on their
own fears and concerns andresponding accordingly. And
because of that the rapport inthe relationship is going
downhill because their behavior,both of their behavior can be
(03:28):
very hurtful at times.
Angus Ross (03:31):
Yeah, I mean, I have the impression of two
prizefighters going back totheir perspective corners and
feeling like they've made allthe shots that they want to and
they probably got a few pointsup on the board. And, and
really, they'll just see wherethis goes. But it's in a sense,
it's kind of like, we're at thispoint, it feels like we're at
(03:51):
the end of round one. We don'treally know where this is gonna
go. We'll see.
Rohini Ross (03:57):
It's true. we're stepping into the unknown. And I
really acknowledge them fortheir courage and being willing
to step into the unknown withus.
Angus Ross (04:03):
Yeah, no, they are.
I mean, they're extremelycourageous in the sense, just by
virtue of the fact they've evenagreed to do this.
Rohini Ross (04:09):
Absolutely.
Angus Ross (04:10):
Yeah.
Rohini Ross (04:11):
And so even though all of that is going on, part of
our responsibility in our job,is to really look for where the
seeds of love are, and therelationships so that we can
really bring focus to that andsupport the rewilding of love
(04:32):
and their relationship with eachother.
Angus Ross (04:34):
Yeah, that's, that's, that's the part that I
really enjoy. It's kind of beinglike, I don't know, what are we
sort of, we an ecologist, kindof pull out some seeds of love
or, or our detective trying tofind out where it is?
Rohini Ross (04:51):
Yeah, we have to have a good eye for it. Because
sometimes it's hard to
Angus Ross (04:53):
see sometimes it's very hard to see certainly in
all that. We know with all thatnegative sentiment that we've
witnessed Last fall.
Rohini Ross (05:01):
But I have to say this one segment that we're
going to play next Angus, Ithink you did an amazing job of
really helping to point Mateo inthe direction of seeing the love
and really, you know, doing yourbest to try and have him focus
on the love versus all of thethings that are wrong in his
(05:23):
eyes with the relationship. AndI would definitely say, given
how he entered the intensive,you had a harder job of that
than I did. Because Alicia wascommitted to the marriage. She
didn't want it to end. But Iwould say you had your work cut
out for you with Matteo in termsof helping him see the seeds of
(05:44):
love, wouldn't you say?
Angus Ross (05:45):
Yeah, I would say if we're gonna, or if I'm gonna
continue with boxing analogy.
You're not are you? He had hisguard up. He had a very good
plan, and
Rohini Ross (05:56):
he was gonna stick to it. If you're gonna keep
using boxing analogies, I mighthave to start understanding
boxing.
Angus Ross (06:02):
If you have thoughts, maybe this would be an
education for you. Okay.
Rohini Ross (06:06):
All right. Well, let's hear that segment with you
Matteo. Now.
Angus Ross (06:12):
Just Can I interrupt for a second? Because I'm well
that's what I'm really curiousabout. Because given all that
you said that said that's likelooks like a pretty hard life.
So I'm now curious about what itis the that you you know, that
you feel connected and bonded,in a sense of an I know that you
you, you have this intention,and you want this to work out?
(06:35):
But what is it that you see thatyou love that you that that kind
of brings you joy and delight,
Mateo (06:41):
she has this energy behind her eyes, and her smile,
that's literally like, like akid in there is it seems like
there's no damage behind that.
And you just get that inglimpses.
Angus Ross (07:10):
That's okay. So, the emotion that's coming up for me
just waiting for I'm sitting,just suggest that there is there
is a there was quite a deeplove,
Mateo (07:25):
there definitely is, but the glimpses are not getting us
through, you know, and theglimpses like that, that energy
that I see. Behind her eyes is,is becoming like numb to me.
(07:53):
Yeah, I mean, it just feelslike, um, it just feels like it
doesn't exist anymore. And, andthe glimpses that I do see, I
just catch myself thinking,like, it's total bullshit, like,
in an hour, you're gonna bebitching about something, or God
knows what but like, like, I'mso jaded. That I feel like I'm
(08:16):
jaded in my life. And I seelike, the, this innocence, and
just not, it's not carrying methrough anymore. Because I know
what's going to transpire. And,you know, a couple minutes, an
hour a day, like just, it justjust No, it's like, it's like,
(08:37):
looking at a beautiful scenery,and just, and wanting to live
there and in like, set, youknow, your build a home on a
foundation, but you know, that,you know, somehow you know, that
there's a missile going topropel itself from the hillside,
it's going to be gone. Right? Soyou're just like, what's the
point of even enjoying it?
Angus Ross (08:56):
Well,let me let me, let me go somewhere with this.
Because, you know, when westarted, and I said, you know,
this is good news, because it's,it feels very workable, in a
sense, the emotion that justcame up, that's really that's
real, that's palpable, that's,there's almost there's a
spiritual quality to thatthere's something very deep and
(09:18):
meaningful in that emotion. Andthat what I'm going to be
pointing to, that's kind of youressential nature, that's our
essential nature as human beingsis that is that, that that, that
that desire, and need to beconnected at that level, we kind
of all one word, operate at thatlevel, that magic sweet spot
(09:39):
where we feel love, particularlyin a relationship. And in a
sense, what I'm going to bepointing to what I was alluding
to the fact that this is goodnews is that you may think that
those are just sort of few andfar between and maybe they are,
but that's kind of like yourinnate essential nature. That
that that part of you that feelsthat Love the rest of it, this
(10:03):
is the good news. And this maynot seem even feasible at this
point in time, but the rest ofit is just stuff that we make
up. That's the kind of thebullshit that we make up all
those narratives that we buildup over the course of time.
That's what we're gonna, youknow, that's what we're gonna
really point to this weekend.
It's just, it's just turningthat on its head. Well, I think
(10:23):
I mean, I'm in the mood foranother metaphor.
Rohini Ross (10:32):
Instead of boxing metaphor, okay.
Angus Ross (10:36):
We're gonna be accused of mixing my metaphors.
I don't know. Well, you know, Idon't want you probably don't
know, I think the only reason Iknow is that my brother brother
went and did this a long timeago, I hasten to add, I don't
know if he'd be still a mindsetto do something so brutal. But
years ago, he went on vacationin Scotland, and went deer
(10:59):
hunting. I really, and part ofthat experience is that you get
assigned what I think isreferred to as a stalker. Not in
the modern kollywood sense ofthe word, but in the traditional
sense of the word. And thatstalker basically helps the
(11:23):
person with the gun, go and findthe deer.
Rohini Ross (11:27):
But they're there like a tracker?
Angus Ross (11:30):
I guess you could say that they have some tracking
skills.
Rohini Ross (11:32):
Okay.
Angus Ross (11:33):
I don't know where stalking or that verb. I don't
even know really what it means.
I don't know,
Rohini Ross (11:38):
just so I understand the person that goes
with your brother is there tohelp him find the deer?
Angus Ross (11:42):
Yes.
Rohini Ross (11:43):
Okay.
Angus Ross (11:43):
They have skills, and they know where the deer
are. Okay. And they know thetelltale signs were to look. And
so in a sense, that's my rolewith Matteo I am that stalker,
but I am a stalker for love. Andmy sole objective is to get that
(12:05):
in His sight, or his sights, hisgun sights as it were, and, and
help him look in that direction.
And it was very cool in thatexperience to just suddenly
realize that our he saw it,because the emotion really
conveyed that he somethingreally registered at a very deep
level. That was kind ofexciting.
Rohini Ross (12:27):
Yeah, it was really powerful to hear the depth of
his feeling and how much hecares about Alicia, like, that's
just really obvious. When heallows himself to drop in.
That's what comes up. But thenhe pops up very quickly back
into his story about how bad itis with her What's wrong, and he
(12:50):
just goes there very quickly.
But he did settle that a littlebit. And it was really, right
there, just how much he caresand how much she's hurting and
how much he misses her, and howmuch he misses the relationship
the way he knows it can be andto go along with your stocking
metaphor, that you have to bereally persistent with him. And
(13:11):
and you know, we'll we'll sharethe next clip. But even though
he was able to touch into thefeeling and connect with the
love in a way, he popped backout, and so you had to be
persistent and kind of helppointing him in the direction of
love.
Angus Ross (13:29):
Yeah, no, thank you.
I thank you for noticing that. Ithink that those are the moments
where I just feel like thiscanned applause is sounding off
in my head. And yeah, I did feelthat there was that moment where
he was starting to drift away,he was losing, he was losing,
you know, his tension was goingelsewhere. He has been slept
sucked over back to the darkside. But I had to, you know,
(13:50):
try and pull him back.
Rohini Ross (13:54):
And we have to remember that oftentimes, it's
feels very vulnerable for peopleto be in their emotional
experience. Many people aren'tused to, especially men. I'm
going to stereotype here. Butoftentimes men are not
comfortable. In the morevulnerable feeling states,
they're sort of suicidallyconditioned not to go there. And
(14:17):
so it can, you know, I'm notsurprised that he's not able to
stay there very long.
Angus Ross (14:22):
Yeah, no, actually, in a sense, I was really shocked
at that sudden level ofvulnerability. So the fact that
we went there for any length oftime for me was was quite a win.
Yeah, in the grand scheme ofthings.
Rohini Ross (14:35):
Yeah. And so here we'll listen into the next part
where you're sort of rememberingto you're assisting him in to
remember to come back and lookin the direction of love to see
what his wisdom is actuallypointing him towards and that's
really what you're going to bedoing a lot this intensive.
Angus Ross (14:56):
Yeah. I'll be there on my shoes. Stick, waiting for
the action to unfold.
Rohini Ross (15:04):
I hope you come up with a less violent metaphors.
Angus Ross (15:11):
What's keeping you in this relationship is that you
on some level, there's somewisdom within you that seeing
her innate mental health, it'sseeing, you know, the love
that's behind her eyes orwhatever, however you're
articulating, on some level,you're seeing her essential
nature.
Mateo (15:28):
Yeah.
Angus Ross (15:29):
But if you're, if you're going to sit there and
say, you know, she had kind ofdefining her along, you know,
how she showed up in yourrelationship, that's not seeing
that there's something that'sholding you in place something
that's keeping you in thisrelationship based on what
you're saying?
Mateo (15:46):
Yeah.
Angus Ross (15:46):
And that's what you kind of got to open up to?
Mateo (15:49):
Yeah, I'm here because of, because of her and wanting
to have those glimpses of like,Oh, my God, like, we are the
greatest couple on this earth.
Angus Ross (16:02):
Do you feel that?
Mateo (16:05):
I know,
Angus Ross (16:06):
You've had a few experiences that.
Mateo (16:08):
I haven't felt that in a long time, I have felt more
lately, like, God, we can be sogreat, and we don't have to fake
it. Like we're faking it, right?
That's what I'm feeling now.
Before it was like, Oh, my God,you and I, like, we could
conquer anything. Like, this isso great. Now it's like, oh, my
God, like, could but even theglimpses that we have now or are
(16:32):
so fake, like, we're so fake,hasn't been anything real. In a
long time. And that's where I'mkind of having these thoughts of
like, how much longer you gonnahave to fake it for, you have to
fake it forever. You know, if itgets better, like, how much
(16:52):
better is it gonna get? And it'snot changing. And it's not
changing, because there's not ababy here. It's not changing,
because any of that stuff. It'sjust not changing because of who
she is, and possibly how she wasbrought up. Yeah, but it's
witnessed as a child, I don'tknow,
Angus Ross (17:09):
When you say things like, it's who she is, is kind
of like, that's almost like thesame as the therapist saying
that this client of mine isbroken. It's kind of like you're
not seeing her innate mentalhealth. But what's at odds with
that is the level of sentimentthat came up when you when I
asked you, you know, to sort ofhighlight some of the things
that are positive about therelationship. There was a real,
(17:30):
there was something that wasvery heartfelt that came very
president was very, very obviousto me. So it's kind of that's
what I'm so curious about is isthat is that that's kind of
what's key seems like, I wouldhave to believe that that's
what's keeping you in it.
Gonzo (17:45):
Well, I mean, I guess you do the same thing is like, Hey,
if you're, if your mom wasverbally abusive to you and your
sister, like, why do you sayit's like, well, that's my mom.
Right? Well, here it is, is whyyou staying and it's like, two
does look like the energy I seebehind her eyes. Like, I know
that she has these moments whereshe's the greatest person in the
world. That's what keeps me in asame thing I can, I can tolerate
(18:08):
all the different types of abusethat I've, you know, been
through, been subjected towhatever, however you want to
say it. I can withstand allthose things. But the, you know,
I'm a man now. And I get tochoose what Yeah, how I interact
with people, how people, I letpeople interact with me. So
(18:28):
that's what is causing me tomove away from, oh, you know,
we're married, is it going to bea forever thing to maybe this
isn't going to be foreverything? Right? But what's
keeping me in is is that like,Oh my god, like this, this girl
is great. Like, look at hereyes, look at this, her genuine
smile, when it does occur tophenomenal it brightens up a
(18:52):
room, but at the same time,it's, you know, is the juice
worth the squeeze, you know,there's a lot of squeezing, not
getting much fucking juice outof this shit.
Angus Ross (19:07):
He certainly has a way with words, I'll give him
that.
Rohini Ross (19:10):
He's got his own metaphors.
Angus Ross (19:14):
I mean, it's quite an interesting dance in the
sense that I'm trying to keephim on point in terms of looking
at the direction of the love.
And really, for him to getthere, he has to find that
vulnerability within himself.
And so, you know, it may be myfault, maybe that for him, it's
(19:37):
very uncomfortable to get tothat level of vulnerability. But
you can see how he's just sortof getting back into his
defenses, which obviously, youknow, are intellectual in the
way that he's seeing therelationship and that level of
feeling that was there and wasso palpable, as I said before or
(19:58):
said in the in the The soundbite, he has now gone back into
a show in a sense. And now I'vegot to really find a way to get
him back out. And I guess I lookback on that, that that specific
exchange and realize that Icould maybe I've done a better
(20:18):
job of not letting him get backthere so quickly or for him just
seemingly, he feel like hereally got back in his shell.
And it ultimately was in a veryhumorous way.
Rohini Ross (20:32):
And humor is one of his strengths. It is also one of
his defenses to and I don't, Idon't think that you didn't
handle that in the right way. Ithink that you're, you know,
we're really simply they'reholding space and the innate
(20:55):
health, the innate wisdom, theinnate love in the individual
working with it's going to comeforward in its own time, and
we're not there to make ithappen in any certain way.
Angus Ross (21:05):
Yeah. Yeah. No, my guess I felt like I was just
hanging on for dear life. And hewas falling back into the abyss.
Yeah.
I thought it was humor.
Rohini Ross (21:14):
Yes. It was quite funny.
Angus Ross (21:16):
It was.
Rohini Ross (21:17):
So now we're here a little bit from Alicia. And as I
said before, my work was alittle easier in the sense that
at least he was fully committedto the relationship and really
want it to be in the marriage.
And so we'll just hear a littlebit from her about that.
Alicia (21:38):
My vows, I wrote my vows, and I literally said, that
I wish that you can see methrough your through my eyes. So
you can see how special Yeah,yeah. And that's what I truly
feel and believe in like, I'lltrigger me because I'm like,
he's so amazing. Yeah. And Ihate when he gets down on
himself. And I hate when he hetalks down on themselves, or
(22:00):
talks poorly about his body orhis self. And like all this,
it's like, you're so smart.
You're so brilliant. You're soso like, it does bother me,
because I'm like, you don't seeit.
Rohini Ross (22:11):
Yeah, you see how amazing he is.
Alicia (22:13):
Yeah! And there's times when like, I'm feeling low about
like, say my job or myconfidence levels, and like, he
does build me up. And then I'mlike, okay, like, Yes, I have
somebody on my team. And it'slike, I get upset that he
doesn't see that, like, I'm onhis team, rooting for him, like
in there with him in thetrenches. And yeah, it's feeling
very hard. And like, I don'twant to not be in I want to I
(22:34):
like I fell in love with thisperson. I didn't get married to
get divorced.
Angus Ross (22:40):
Yeah, I mean, listening to that it kind of
breaks your heart. You. And forme, also, I think, in a sense,
you know, we talked in the lastepisode about separate
realities, that it's as if eachpersonality has these two
separate realities. So we listento a Teo know, and being very
(23:06):
judgmental about therelationship on the one hand,
and then on the other hand, isthis sort of beautiful level of
sentiment that's coming fromcoming from a vulnerability that
we haven't, you know, that wehaven't yet seen up until that
point. And then, and then youhave Alicia, who's, you know,
now just, she's, in a sense, Ijust want to match the
(23:28):
personalities that come forwardin that level of vulnerability
and let them have aconversation, if we could sort
of magically, you know, bringthem together, when they're in
that space, you'd think thateverything would be resolved in
one fell swoop. But then theyget back into their corner, they
get back into their judgment.
And, and that's where thedifficulty lies. But, but the,
(23:49):
but the love is obviously there.
Rohini Ross (23:54):
Yeah. Sorry. I was having trouble following you for
a second. In terms of the whowas matching with who, but what
I understand you're saying isthat if Mateo could speak with
Alicia , yeah, when they're bothin the space of vulnerability,
then that would be a reallybeautiful conversation.
Angus Ross (24:11):
Yes, definitely.
Rohini Ross (24:13):
And that, unfortunately, what's been
happening is that they haven'tbeen meeting each other from
that place. And they've beenhaving conversations from the
what you're calling the otherpersonality from, from the other
state of mind where they're moredefended, and angry and upset.
And those conversations aren'tgoing well.
Angus Ross (24:32):
Yeah. And the defenses are up. His guard is
up. Yes. A little jab here andthere. Yeah, well choose my
moment to do that.
Rohini Ross (24:41):
Absolutely. And then she has her guard up and
the various explosions thathappen between them, all of that
is not coming from that place ofopen heartedness, that place of
love that's really there forboth of them. Yeah. And so Next,
we're going to be looking moreat the common ground that they
(25:04):
do have, even though they'rehaving trouble seeing it for
themselves, it's really clearthat there have a lot in common.
And they're both suffering. Andthey're both feeling quite
lonely in the relationship.
Angus Ross (25:18):
Yeah, that's it, isn't it that the both
suffering. And yeah, you canimagine that you're right about
that, that feeling lonely? Very,very intuitive of you.
Rohini Ross (25:31):
Thank you.
Alright, so let's listen toAlicia.
Alicia (25:39):
Doesn't like to talk at all, like, the communication is
really bad, it's very surfacelevel, then he doesn't want to
get deeper. And I've tried torespect that. But at the same
time, as a human, I'm like,that's abnormal. So he doesn't
really share too much. I thinkthat he is suffering from some
sort of depression that he's nottruly aware of. Mm hmm. Um, I
(26:02):
think a lot of it stems fromlike his childhood, where,
because he's used abandonmentwith me before. He said, like,
I've abandoned them, and his dadabandoned them. So I think it's
a lot of that stuff, a lot ofpressure that he puts on himself
when it comes to finances whenit comes to life when it comes
to where you have to be.
Rohini Ross (26:21):
So with Alicia, she's really feeling the lack of
communication with Mateo andmissing, being able to connect
on a deeper level with him. Andin her dismay, about how things
(26:41):
are unfolding, you can hear thatshe's trying to figure out
what's behind all of that, andstarting to put her own story
together, based on what sheknows.
Angus Ross (26:55):
Yeah, it's kind of interesting, from the point of
view that she's already, youknow, he's accusing her probably
of being quite of a sped upindividual. And you can see how
she's transferring her focusfrom them being able to have
some kind of level of verbalinteraction to now it's a very
(27:16):
much a sort of internal processfor her where she's just getting
really caught up in her herpsychoanalysis of the situation,
which I'm sure ultimately isgoing to be proven to be
erroneous. But what she did, youknow, that's kind of all she's
left with, she's, she's unableto communicate with him. So all
she's left with is the inventionthat's coming from her
(27:38):
imagination.
Rohini Ross (27:39):
Right, she's putting dots together that may
not go together. But what Ithink is important to notice
that there's, when she's talkingabout this, she's she's feeling
her pain and suffering becauseof the lack of communication.
But I feel like she's trying tounderstand him. And like you're
saying, based on the lack ofcommunication from him and her
(28:02):
trying to understand him, she'smaking things up as she goes
along. But she's ultimatelysensing that there's more going
on than meets the eye.
Angus Ross (28:10):
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of beautiful in a sense
that she's she is seeing thepsychological innocence, even
though she not she, she probablyisn't aware of those terms yet.
That's what she's a senseessentially doing in a very
organic way. She's, she'slooking towards his suffering.
And that's pretty, it's prettyremarkable. All things
(28:33):
considered.
Rohini Ross (28:34):
Yeah, I that's what I wanted to point out that even
in her suffering, she was ableto see that he's suffering and
that his behavior in some wayshe's saying his behavior is a
reflection of the fact that he'ssuffering.
Angus Ross (28:47):
Yeah, that's pretty astute observation.
Rohini Ross (28:50):
Yeah, yeah. And then in this segment with Mateo,
he really is just very upfrontabout how he is withdrawn and
his communication and that'ssort of his coping strategy
right now.
Angus Ross (29:04):
See what's afoot with Matteo.
Gonzo (29:10):
I, I can't tell you I mean, you know, my off putting
emotions with you know, certainthings has led to me being more
distant relationship not beingromantically involved in
sometimes even just beingmindfully absent or absent
altogether because like yousaid, I create this narrative
and now when I just entered myhome, I don't feel that I can
(29:35):
relax I feel like I'm you know,in a straight jacket all the
time and you're right when Ilook at her now, it's kind of
just like, I don't have that Ihave built up this narrative and
even if, you know nothing hasoccurred that day that would
make me feel the way that I dowith like the no resentment, but
just the played out storyline.
Yeah. I've done that and who hasevery right to feel also lonely
(30:02):
in the relationship because Iknow I haven't done what I would
want to do. That's, that's whatirks me the most is, I want to
surprise someone, I want tocuddle up with someone, I want
to give them warmth, and, andyou know, the feeling, but it's
just, I'm so pulled back fromthat at this moment that it even
(30:22):
makes me feel sad that I can'thave that emotion with anybody.
Angus Ross (30:30):
Well, you, you look at this, and you hear Mateo. And
for me I can see where Aliciais coming from in the sense that
she's now got preoccupied withsort of trying to psychoanalyze
the situation. And really,that's all she's left with, in
the sense that here is Mateowho's putting up his barricades
(30:53):
and decided I'm going toextricate that I got to
extricate from my myself fromthe situation, I can't do it
physically. But I can do itemotionally. And I can cut off
all forms of communication onthat level. And, and there's
this sort of misguided notionthat that's going to keep him
somewhat protected, when inactual fact, that's actually
(31:13):
taking up a lot of energy,there's a lot of bandwidth taken
up with that very purpose thathe's decided to take on board
for himself. So here's a here'san individual has decided to
take that stance. And then hereis Alicia, who's who's kind of
left with her imagination, andjust trying to figure out what
on earth is going on here inthis man's mind. And, and that
(31:36):
must take its toll, too,obviously, it takes its toll.
And that's also taking up a lotof bandwidth. So here, we have
two individuals who areexpending a great deal of
energy, you know, in a veryunnecessary way. And so for me,
also, when I consider this isthat we have worked with other
couples who can really spend agood deal of their married life
(31:58):
showing up in this way. And wewill refer to that as an
unhealthy normal. So let's hopewe've we're going to be able to
nip this in the bud fairly earlyon. But you can see the
beginnings of what is obviouslygoing to look like a very
unhealthy normal if theycontinue in this vein.
Rohini Ross (32:13):
And I think that's a really good point that you're
making, that it takes up a lotof energy to stay polarized.
Because when couples are inconflict, they often don't
realize how much energy isrequired to stay in the anger to
stay in the resentment to stayin the upset to fuel everything
that's needed to maintain thepolarization. And that it's
(32:35):
actually easier to relax intoyour natural state and be kind
and loving and warm and openhearted with each other. But
it's oftentimes invisible topeople, just like you said with
Matteo. He's thinking that hislack of communication is keeping
him safe, that that's his copingmechanism, the way that he's
(32:58):
trying to protect himselfemotionally, that takes a lot of
energy, and he's suffering. Heeven says, I want to cuddle. I'm
not showing up the way that Iwant to show up. And that's
painful for him. His copingmechanism is creating suffering
for him not just in terms of theramifications in the
relationship. And you know,Alicia's outbursts, that's her
(33:21):
best way that she can figure outto let off her steam. But
ultimately, that's draining aswell, that's not just draining
on him that's draining on hertoo. So, you know, it's clear
that they are polarized, thatthey're not seeing that it's
actually much easier to not bepolarized.
Angus Ross (33:40):
Yeah, well, well, fair that, you know, I don't
really have anything to add tothat. That's just, you know,
that's the situation that isthey've definitely polarized in
no uncertain terms. And, and atsome point, someone has to take
the high ground, in a sense, Ifeel like Alicia, you know,
really has enabled herself tomaneuver itself in that
direction, just by virtue of thefact that she, she shared some
(34:05):
of her concerns about where hemay may, she may be able to see
her his suffering.
Rohini Ross (34:11):
Yeah. So in terms of where we're at with them,
now, we've done some intake, andwe're learning more about what
they're polarized on. And evenat this point, we've, you know,
you especially Angus, did yourbest to point in the direction
(34:33):
of where the love is pointing inthe direction of what is working
and, and the tendency for eachof them is to focus on what's
not working to focus on thenegative. And of course, that's
what they expect to do. That'swhat they've done in the other
therapy that they've gone to.
And so the it feels normal to goto the long list what you would
(34:57):
call them The laundry list, thelong list of things that they
feel are wrong with arelationship and aren't working.
And to use your metaphor, we'reactually asking them to get
familiar with what love lookslike, and to track the love or
stuck the love, but to, toreally see where the love is
(35:20):
still in the relationship. Andrather than focusing on what's
not working, to help them toremember and see where the love
is, and to remember that they dolove each other, because even in
the little snippets that we'veshared, it's really clear that
there are segments where it'sobvious how much they care about
(35:41):
each other.
Angus Ross (35:44):
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. I guess, you
know, for us moving forward, wegot to get Mateo to somehow
realize that this, this stanceof feeling like he needs to
batten down the hatches andhunker down in his his glorious
position, or not so glorious,because it position as the case
may be, is a fool's errand thatit's just gonna create more
(36:06):
suffering, he's really kind ofcreated this container for
himself, which is justultimately going to suffocate in
at some point.
Rohini Ross (36:13):
Well, the good news is that they both do want love
and intimacy, they both saidthat, they have both at times
Express compassion, at least shehas expressed compassion for
Matteo feels like he'ssuffering, he's expressed
compassion for her recognizingthat his behavior is hurtful. So
they, they have that care foreach other, it's just difficult
(36:35):
for them to maintain in a day today way. And really, it's going
to be for both of them, to takethe higher ground, to both for
both of them to see what otherpossibilities are available to
them in the relationship. And inthe next sessions, what we're
going to be looking at, ishelping them to see that the
(36:57):
other person isn't responsiblefor their suffering, we're going
to be looking at where theirexperience really comes from, so
that they can feel moreempowered and less victimized in
the relationship, we're going tobe looking at how their
experience of reality issubjective. And it changes based
(37:18):
on their mood, and helping themto see when they can trust their
thinking and when they can'ttrust their thinking. And so
rather than working on fixingany of these relationship
dynamics, what we're going to dois we're going to help them
understand how their minds work.
So with that understanding, theycan connect more fully with
their own innate health, theirown innate well being their own
(37:41):
innate resilience, and to feelthe truth of who they are more
fully. And from there, see howthey proceed the relationship at
that point?
Angus Ross (37:57):
Well, at this point, I guess I should reevaluate this
idea of using the metaphor of usbeing stalkers. Because I think
if we're going to talk aboutgetting them to the higher
ground, probably the role thatwould be better suited to
explaining what we have to dohere is that we're more like
shirtless. This point, we'veprobably got our land rover to
(38:18):
the bottom of the mountain. Andthey've got all their equipment
out for us to see. And now we'vegot to figure out where to
establish base camp and thenplot our route to the summit.
And we'll see, we'll see howthat goes. But at this point, I
have to say I'm a little bitsuspicious that Matteo is going
(38:40):
to struggle with a side div, butat least here is not the root
cause of all his suffering. Ithink that that's going to be
somewhat challenging, but wewill see maybe I'm wrong. Maybe
I'm right. I don't know. But Ican see how that's definitely
going to be a very big part ofthis journey, and maybe the
(39:01):
greatest crevice for us tonegotiate our way across, we'll
see what happens.
Rohini Ross (39:07):
Is it crevice or crevasse?
Angus Ross (39:10):
Well, I think because you've spent time in
France might be inclined to callit crevasse, which sounds very
high brandy, but I'm pretty surewhere I come from lightining
secret? Nearly so.
Rohini Ross (39:27):
I thought you know, climbing reference.
Angus Ross (39:31):
I was using a climbing reference.
Rohini Ross (39:33):
I guess we'll have to look that up to
Angus Ross (39:35):
put it in the footnotes.
Rohini Ross (39:38):
Show Notes,
Angus Ross (39:39):
excuse me in the show notes.
Rohini Ross (39:49):
Thank you so much for listening to Rewilding Love.
If you enjoyed this podcast,please let us know by
subscribing on iTunes and wewould love for you to leave a
review there.
Angus Ross (40:00):
iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who
need help with theirrelationships.
Rohini Ross (40:05):
If you would like to learn more about our work and
our online Rewilding Community,please visit our website,
therewilders.org
Angus Ross (40:14):
Thanks for listening. Join us next week.
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