Episode Transcript
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Angus Ross (00:03):
Welcome to Rewilding
Love. This season is with a
couple on the brink of divorce.
Rohini Ross (00:10):
This is episode
number five, sparring with
Mateo.
Mateo (00:15):
I may have just made the
biggest mistake of my life.
Alicia (00:18):
I don't understand where
things went wrong.
Rohini Ross (00:21):
The quality of the
relationship is actually a
quality of the state of mind ofthe individuals in the
relationship.
Alicia (00:28):
In any given moment his
vibe just changes and it's like
boom, like you hate me all of asudden.
Mateo (00:33):
Is the juice worth the
squeeze? You know, there's a lot
of squeezing, not getting muchjuice out of it.
Alicia (00:39):
I think that he is
suffering from some sort of
depression
Rohini Ross (00:42):
To understand that
our experience comes from
within, to me is the ultimateand empowerment.
Angus Ross (00:49):
It's a ride at a
funfair, we go up and down, we
move and we love each other. Wego into low mood, we hate each
other.
Mateo (00:55):
For the most part, I'm
Pirates of the Caribbean with
there's only one drop and onerise is okay, everything else is
pretty flat in my life. Right?
hers is corkscrewing. It's, itjumps to track sometimes like it
does crazy shit.
Angus Ross (01:11):
You are listening to
Rewilding Love with me Angus
Ross,
Rohini Ross (01:15):
and me Rohini Ross.
Angus Ross (01:17):
Rewilding Love it's
a podcast about relationships.
Rohini Ross (01:21):
We believe that
love never disappears completely
in relationships. It can alwaysbe rewelded, listen in as we
guide a real couple back totheir natural state of love.
Angus Ross (01:32):
Relax, and enjoy the
show.
Rohini Ross (01:40):
Angus when I
listened back to your session
with Mateo, it sounds like hereally gave you a pretty good
run for your money. And you hadto really stay on your toes with
him.
Angus Ross (01:51):
Yes, you could say
that. He was very resistant to
me trying to share this ideawith him that Elysia can in no
way affect his sense of wellbeing. And that's all on his
shoulders. And, and that's wherehe felt compelled to hold this
(02:12):
very strong defensive line. So Ihad to look for all kinds of
creative ways to penetrate thatdefensive line. And I don't know
if I did it, ultimately. Butthat was definitely the line
that I was looking for. And, youknow, kudos to him for for, for
meeting me every step of theway, in that respect.
Rohini Ross (02:34):
Well, we'll get to
hear all of your creative ways
that you tried to get your pointacross. But we can start out
with just hearing him share alittle bit about that bombshell
that really got things moving interms of them deciding to work
on the relationship.
Angus Ross (02:48):
Sounds like a good
idea to me.
Do you talk about leaving eachother or?
Mateo (03:00):
Yeah
Angus Ross (03:00):
I know, in the heat
of the moment last night, she
shared that she wanted to have adivorce. But is that something
that's...
Mateo (03:05):
I expressed it a couple
months ago, and that's what
initiated her going to therapy.
That's what initiated hergetting in contact with herself.
I was ready to move like I don'tknow why.
Angus Ross (03:17):
Right. And is that
something that's now? based? Did
you kind of lay down the law andsay, yes, if things don't change
or move on,
Mateo (03:25):
I had divorce papers
signed and ready to us to give
to her to sign. I had everythingready. Okay. And the way that...
Angus Ross (03:33):
You're pretty far
along in this...
Mateo (03:35):
But she talked to me
about it. And again, another
another roadblock of why she'sbeen the way she is right. And,
and like I said, I mean, there'sthat energy behind her eyes that
I'm kind of weak for and like,Okay, all right. So where am I
right now? I want everything towork out. How much longer can I
(04:03):
withstand this living in thisnegative household? I don't
know.
Rohini Ross (04:16):
Well, the good news
is that he does want the
relationship to work. But youcan tell just in the way that he
says that that there's a there'sconditions on that and he wants
the relationship to work if shechanges.
Angus Ross (04:31):
Yes, there is that
significant caveat that for the
relationship to work, there hasto be a significant change as
far as Lucy is concerned.
Rohini Ross (04:42):
And we all know how
well that goes when one person
in the relationship wants theother person to be different.
Angus Ross (04:49):
Oh are you present
company included in that.
Rohini Ross (04:54):
When we
definitely...
Angus Ross (04:55):
excluded?
Rohini Ross (04:56):
included...
Angus Ross (04:57):
okay.
Rohini Ross (04:58):
When you say we
went through that at the
beginning of our relationship.
Angus Ross (05:02):
Yeah, I would say
significantly, I would say that
I always imagined that you wouldchange. And I'd have the woman
that the woman of my dreams. AndI imagine you probably had some
similar tape running in yourhead,
Rohini Ross (05:17):
I absolutely did.
Angus Ross (05:19):
And it is, it is
always a recipe for disaster.
You know, there's this sort ofpreoccupation with teaming and
controlling our partner to fitinto our standards and
expectations. And it just kindof creates hostility ultimately,
certainly, you know, selfausterity, born out of a level
of resentment.
Rohini Ross (05:37):
And what happens is
that it is toxic toward the
goodwill in the relationshipthat just goes out the window.
Angus Ross (05:44):
Yeah. Always as, as
we, as we well know.
Rohini Ross (05:47):
Yeah. We've learned
that the hard way, and hopefully
we can help them see somethingdifferently for themselves
around that.
Angus Ross (05:54):
Yeah, I'd like to
think that that's, you know, we
earned our stripes in thatrespect to can hopefully share
our knowledge and know how abouthow to negotiate our way through
that with with with the likes ofan ECM Mateo.
Rohini Ross (06:09):
And so here's an
example of what is not working
for him in the relationship.
Mateo (06:17):
Let's just say, let's
just take a real quick life
example is, you know, I'm notcomfortable with the
conversations, I feel like it'svery aggressive, blah, blah,
blah. I'm not showing anyemotional or physical, romantic,
you know, romance towards her.
Okay, so let's take the firstinstance, she gets pissed off,
(06:37):
she I know that that's thereason why she's getting pissed
off. But she's bringing upsomething else, right? So then
I'll let her spin out. I justasked her not to yell, bring
down your voice, please. I amsensitive years, so I don't
really like loud noises. Andshe'll apologize, right? What it
also takes me time to get overthat crazy baby tantrum that
(07:01):
just took place. And let's justsay It's day two. And I haven't
been physically romantic withher. Because I'm in this state
of mistrust, and like, oh, mygod, that was so exhausting for
me. Well, day two comes around,and here comes the same
bullshit. And it's like, okay,you want me to reach this point,
to be this person, and I wantyou to, but you're not allowing
(07:25):
enough time for me to feel thosefeelings again. You know, that's
why in the beginning, I waslike, maybe I should just move
out, I want to move out, youknow, I want to get my own place
and live in my own silence. So Idon't have to come to this every
day. So that way, I can kind ofbreak the trend of being
mentally exhausted from that.
Rohini Ross (07:49):
Well, Mateo is
sharing his tale of whoa with
you. And my guess is that hefeels pretty strongly that he's
got good evidence tosubstantiate his claims as to
why he feels the way he does,and how that makes sense, in
terms of why his behavior theway is the way that it is
currently. And you don't respondin the way that he's probably
(08:13):
expecting you to at this point.
Angus Ross (08:17):
Yeah, I mean, you
say it's a tale of Whoa, I look
at it as being more of a salespitch, you know, here's his
product. And I'm, I am the,hopefully the willing customer,
but in this case, not so willingcustomer, I'm not really buying
any of that. And there'sprobably a little frustration
for him in that respect.
Rohini Ross (08:37):
Well, what the
product is that he's trying to
sell you is that he's a victimto Alicia. And you're just not
buying that.
Angus Ross (08:44):
Yeah, that would be
a case of like, yeah, make sure
that you look at the smallprint, and there's a 30 day
return policy on that.
Rohini Ross (08:57):
So we'll hear what
you share with him next, but I'm
guessing that he was perhaps alittle surprised.
Angus Ross (09:02):
Yeah, a few key
words. All I'm gonna do really
over the next few days is justcontinuously point you in this
direction of seeing things,some, some at some point, seeing
things differently, seeing thatthere's nothing that she can do
in her behavior, you know, interms of the words that she's
sharing with you, that reallyaffects your state of mind, you
(09:24):
affect your own state of mind,your feeling your own thinking.
And there's something there isan insight wrapped up in that
that's very liberating. And itgoes against the grain of pretty
much all of our programming. Andit gets harder and harder as we
get older and older becausethose neural pathways just get
stronger and stronger overyears, and particularly in the
(09:45):
course of relationship. Youknow, you've had X amount of
time together, how many yearshave you been together? Seven.
So seven years of creating verystrong narratives around you
know, what were probably onceold standards and expectations
that are not being fulfilled. ornew behaviors that are
unacceptable that have morphedinto something else. Those are
all. That's all in theintellect. But that's not in the
(10:09):
moment, the moment will be nowis, I guess, the real hope, I
will think what the hope that Iwould have for you is that you
would like, keep an open mindand an open heart in the face of
what I'm sharing with you what'sbeing shared with her. And
seeing things through that lenswith this, if this is new
information for you, or whateverlevel you're This is registering
(10:32):
with you. If you can see thingsunfold differently.
Mateo (10:37):
I would love for them to
and I feel like I am approaching
the days with optimism tosometimes you know what? I don't
need physical contact right now.
Because last night you werenuts. All right. But I'm still
open minded. We can have a chat.
Like it's all good. My slateisn't white clean. I trust you
today, like I trusted youyesterday, no big deal. But
(10:59):
right now, this is my personalspace. And I want this. So I do
approach it with an open mind.
It's just the level of at whichwill the rate at which I you
know, open myself out 100% isnot being received well by my
counterpart.
Rohini Ross (11:19):
I'm imagining that
this might be hard for him to
hear at this point. And I guessit would probably be quite hard
for many people to hear. So it'dbe good for us to take some time
to really clarify what you meanby what you're saying.
Angus Ross (11:34):
I would say a
wholehearted Yes. Because I
think that, that thatclarification is often in my
experience falls on deaf ears.
So I think we're probably gonnabe saying this more than once.
I'm gonna be looking for allsorts of creative ways like I
was with Matteo to convey thismessage.
Rohini Ross (11:56):
Yes, absolutely.
This
Angus Ross (11:58):
is a pivotal message
in this understanding. And it's
hard for people to tounderstand,
Rohini Ross (12:03):
yeah, this is key.
So what you're saying to him isthat he is not experiencing
Alicia's behavior directly, thatthere's her behavior, then
there's his thinking about herbehavior. And what he's really
experiencing is the thinkingthat he's identifying with.
Angus Ross (12:23):
So far, so good.
Rohini Ross (12:26):
But in his mind,
that thinking is invisible to
him. So it really looks to himlike he is experiencing her
directly. And that she is thecause for his suffering.
Angus Ross (12:37):
always, in his mind,
Rohini Ross (12:39):
in his mind. And so
what you're trying to help him
to see is that that's notpossible, because that's not how
it works, that every single oneof us experiences life via our
thinking. And that's what weidentify with. And that's what
creates our internal experience.
And one of the most profoundexamples of what's possible for
(13:04):
humans around this, I think, isthe example of Viktor Frankl who
was a psychiatrist who was aprisoner in one of the
concentration camps in theSecond World War. And in that
experience, he was able to be inthe feeling of love and
(13:25):
compassion, not just forhimself, not just for the fellow
prisoners that he was with. Butthat even extended to the
guards. And that thatcircumstance of being in a
concentration camp did notdetermine his internal
experience. Now, I know that'san extreme example. But it
(13:48):
really points to the potentialof what's available to all of us
as human beings. And thatultimately, our experience is a
reflection of our state of mindand the thinking that we're
identifying with. That's whereit comes from. And when we see
that, we get so much internalfreedom and liberation, because
(14:10):
we can never be victimized bythose outside of us. We're still
free. And I'm not condoning badbehavior. I'm not condoning
violence or abusive behavior onany level, I want to be really
clear about that. But understandthat our experience comes from
within, to me is the ultimateand empowerment
Angus Ross (14:37):
And probably one of
the most important things to be
garnered from thisunderstanding, if not the most
important thing.
Rohini Ross (14:45):
And we really want
everyone that's listening to see
if they can have an open mindaround this to see if it's
possible to really recognizethat experience comes from
within and and we have examplesin our our day to day lives
about this we can be in asituation. And in one state of
(15:06):
mind, the situation will lookreally difficult and impossible.
And then maybe we go for a walk,or we have a nap or we wake up
the next morning, and nothingcan have changed. And we can
have a completely differentexperience about that situation.
Angus Ross (15:24):
Yeah, I
wholeheartedly agree with that.
I think that, you know, this isthe the significant next step
for anybody to take, who canfirst embrace the idea that has
nothing to do with externalcircumstances is not the other
person's fault. It's always ourthinking that we embrace that
idea. And then we just start tosee how that's where suffering
comes from. And, and then we canstop identifying with the
(15:48):
thinking, or at least becomebetter equipped to see how this
is always a reflection of ourstate of mind. This is, you
know, for me, that's, that'ssuch a big part of this
understanding, in tandem withthis idea that it's not the
other person or the other partyor the external circumstances.
So often, what shows up in ourthinking is a reflection of our
(16:10):
state of mind. So if we're in alow mood, the reflection in us
in our behavior is going to bethat state of mind, really, more
than anything else.
Rohini Ross (16:21):
And what's so
helpful also, when we recognize
that our experiences coming fromthe thoughts that we're
identifying with, when we seeyou know, as they say, it's an
inside job, then we know thatthe nature of thought is to
settle, we know that the mind isdesigned to come to a place of
peace, that is the naturalstate. So if we're caught up in
(16:42):
painful thinking, all we need todo is let our mind relax and
settle. And then we're going tocome out of that experience. So
to me, that's the ultimate andhopefulness because suffering
only as chronic and continuouswhen we keep feeding that
thinking and living in thefeeling of that. But when we
understand that the thinking isthe cause of suffering, and we
(17:05):
let our mind relax, and we leavethat thinking alone, the mind
naturally settles and we open upto what is behind that, which is
our peace of mind and our innerfreedom.
Angus Ross (17:16):
Yeah, beautifully
said. And without understanding
what we're left with is ispainful thinking begets more
painful thinking, it justcreates a vicious spiral that,
you know, takes it takes us downa rabbit hole of pure dismay and
discontent.
Rohini Ross (17:35):
And it has us look
in the wrong direction in the
way that Matteo is doing. He'sbelieving that his suffering is
coming from outside of himself,rather than seeing that the way
he's engaging with his thoughtsis actually where his sufferings
coming from. And so because itlooks like it's coming from
Alicia, he's putting all hisenergy into trying to figure out
(17:55):
how to change her how to controlher how to tame her how to run
away from her, he's putting allhis energy into that direction,
which has nothing to do with hissuffering.
Angus Ross (18:05):
Yeah, I'm just
continually throwing more oxygen
at that fire.
Mateo (18:21):
Like, I'm not Nelson
Mandela, you want to free you
know, or end apartheid. You knowwhat I mean? Like, I'm not
Gandhi, who's, you know,fighting for some revolution? in
his house, yes. Who has a choiceto go through this shit? Or not?
Yeah, no, I'm not leading arevolution. So I don't know,
what I'm supposed to do otherthan expect change from someone
(18:45):
else to allow me to be theperson that I want to be and the
person that they want me to beright. But it does take change
from another angle, as well asmy new enlightened, you know,
mentality of how to look atthings. I don't think that's
what's clouded.
Rohini Ross (19:02):
Mateo really can't
see how he's responsible in
terms of where his experience iscoming from. And he emphasizes
here, again, how he's fine. Andreally, this is all on Elisa
being different. And what I loveabout the tech that you take at
(19:23):
this point is you're recognizingthat he's not able to take on
board, what you're saying. Andso you move away from their
specific circumstance andpersonal situation, because it's
clearly too much of a hot spotfor him to have perspective on.
And you shift gears and you goin a different direction and
give another example that is notabout their specific situation,
(19:47):
a more generic example, thatstill illustrates the point that
you're making, but hopefully,because it's not about them
specifically, he's going to beable to hear them in a more
neutral way. take on board whatyou're saying?
Angus Ross (20:02):
Yeah, I mean, I just
had to keep looking for an
opening and hope at some point,I will find that pathway to get
into a point where he'd be ableto receive even the smallest
glimmer of this understanding.
And because really, up untilnow, he's, he's just decided
it's an open shot case that he'scome to court. He's got all his
(20:24):
paperwork, he's got all thissubstantial evidence, and he's
just looking at me as the judgeis just gonna throw the book at
Alicia, and he can go on hismerry way. Case dismissed.
(20:48):
Actually, let's go to this partyis another way. So in the
corporate world, what we do withthis understanding, we talk
about becoming discouragementproof. So in a corporate
environment, or actually, let'slook at it in a sales
environment, you know, salesmanhas to constantly expose
themselves to ridicule andcriticism, let's say, or that's
maybe a fear that they have,with this understanding, taking
(21:09):
on this idea that I don't Icause my own suffering, they're
not responsible for how I'mfeeling inside someone on the
end of the cold call, can saywhat they want. But that's
that's, that's if I run withthat, that's me creating that
issue. So that's how we defineit in terms of being
discouragement prevented thesame way in a relationship.
That's what we're pointing to isbecoming discouragement proof is
(21:32):
not taking anything that theybring to the table. And usually,
it's what they bring to thetable in a low mood, and they're
all sped up and they say thingsthat could be perceived as
hurtful, we start to see, yeah,they're just sped up, they're
out of balance, I don't need totake that shit personally, has
nothing to do with me. But if Itake that on board, and I take
(21:52):
that personally, and then myneural pathways begin to
develop, I begin to create thislike great big story, and the
physiology that can come withthat story. Yeah, that's that's
doing ourselves a totaldisservice.
Mateo (22:06):
Yes, you really put it
like a hidden camera and watch
us interact. I said,
Angus Ross (22:10):
I used to say the
same thing. I said, if this was
a court of law, and we had ahidden camera, the jury would be
convicting you, not me.
Rohini Ross (22:20):
I have this quite
vivid memory, of you saying
exactly the same thing to me, inthe apartment in West Hollywood.
I'm sure you said it more timesthan that one time. But that's
the memory that really jumpsinto my mind. Do you remember
that?
Angus Ross (22:37):
Yes, I did. Yes, I
do. For, before the age of
reality TV, I must have had somesort of premonition that that
may be coming. But I feel likeyes, if we had a camera covering
all of our all of ourinteractions that I would have
(22:58):
been seen as the as the partythat was really following, you
know, what I would perceive asthe more appropriate moral
compass or the moral highground, at least anyway.
Rohini Ross (23:09):
So you must be able
to quite relate to Mateo?
Angus Ross (23:12):
Well, I could I
could understand the mindset. I
don't know if I relate to him inthese terms, but I do understand
it.
Rohini Ross (23:22):
And I do too. And
what strikes me about that kind
of comment is that there's a anattachment to that level of
righteousness. And when,whenever any of us get into that
position, where we believe thatwe are right, and the other
person is wrong, weautomatically have a closed
(23:43):
mind. And we we lose touch ofthe big picture, when we're not
able to have empathy and reallyunderstand where the other
person is coming from. Becauseof that righteousness.
Angus Ross (23:54):
Yeah, what I would
say that if I was to relate this
to myself, now I feel likemoving through life, I'm
starting to notice that if I'min judgment, that judgment is
kind of like my check enginelight that, you know, I'm that
I'm already my state of mind hasprobably gone south, and I
probably shouldn't be trustinganything that's coming out of my
mouth. Because it's being fueledby thinking that's been really
(24:17):
dictated to by my state of mind.
So if I can become more adept atseeing that, then that's where I
feel like life starts to look awhole lot better. But yes, there
is this position ofrighteousness. That motto was
adopted. But it's coming from aplace of judgment. And so then
one has to ask oneself is is youknow, what's going on the state
of mind, brother?
Rohini Ross (24:40):
Well, I think a
really good rule of thumb for
all of us is that as soon as weare in the feeling of judgment,
which goes along withrighteousness, that we know we
can't trust our state of mind atthat point. It's gone south.
Angus Ross (24:55):
Yeah, I would
concur, wholeheartedly.
Rohini Ross (25:00):
Well, you're
discouragement proof and you
take one more foray into seeingif he can recognize he's not a
victim to her behavior. And youeven at this point, start trying
to throw in some personalexamples of what worked for us.
Angus Ross (25:14):
Is this was my
Robert, the Bruce moment. Do you
know the story of Robert theBruce?
Rohini Ross (25:19):
I do know the
story, because you've told me
but others might not.
Angus Ross (25:22):
Well, Robert, the
Bruce was a Scottish King, who
was defeated on the defeat onthe field of battle by the
English Saxons, found himself orsought refuge in a cave. And he
watched this spider, make thisweb again and again and again.
Because every time the spiderfinished this very intricate
(25:45):
web, the wind would blow, andyou'd have to start from
scratch. He or she, I don'tknow, didn't really go into
gender. But the spider wouldstart from scratch. And Robert
the Bruce took his inspirationfrom there, and continued on and
finally defeated the English.
Rohini Ross (26:04):
And so you are
rebuilding your web?
Angus Ross (26:06):
Yes. So if at first
you don't succeed, you keep
trying and trying and try again.
But the things that she says toyou, when she's out of balance,
she's just running her story.
She's just running a millionstories have been programmed
into her head, probably by herfamily, her peers, by whatever
Mateo (26:27):
reality TV reality TV,
Angus Ross (26:28):
Whatever is coming
forward. It's like she's
refracting that in her owninimitable way.
Mateo (26:33):
Yeah, I believe so.
Angus Ross (26:33):
But that's, if she's
coming at you, when she's out of
balance. And she's, you know,her story. The intellect is
always going to throw up allthat stuff, it's going to throw
up all that shit always. Becauseit's the intellect. That's all
it does. The intellect is tryingto figure this whole dynamic
out. It's in fight or flight.
And it's trying to figure thingsout, we used to joke around this
idea that so I don't know ifyou're familiar with the idea of
(26:57):
the lizard brain didn't. Haveyou heard of that. I mean, I'm
not a neuroscientist. And Idon't know much about
neuroscience. But there's a partof the brain, scientists have
nicknamed it the lizard brain.
And it's the oldest part of thebrain. It's the part of the
brain which governs fight orflight. And that's basically the
most well developed part of thelizard brain is fight or flight.
(27:18):
So there any really no flight orflight, let's say, you know,
flight, flight, or fight andwar, let's fornicators
basically, that's the right ofthe lizard. So but we have that
in our in our head. And so weget into an experience where we
feel fear. And it's like, whatare we going to do with this and
then the intellect wants to geton board and figure things out.
(27:39):
So there's, there's almost likea, it's like the two are kind of
in cahoots with one another. Sowe always used to joke that I
would behave like a bee bee likethis Gecko turning into
Godzilla. And I'd be like, outof balance, and Rohini would do
this sort of thing with a mouthlike a lizard like sticking his
tongue out, and usually wouldlike, I would see the funny
side, and it would kind of breakthe pattern. But it's kind of
(28:01):
for me, it's really interestingto look at that and look at how
we just tell ourselves thesestories, we just like, we have
our flight or fight or flightmechanism, we have our intellect
is trying to make sense of itall. And the intellect will
basically regurgitate all kindsof crap that have come through
and points where we're usuallyout of balance and created this
(28:23):
whole narrative. And then itbecomes this well worn path that
we can easily default into.
Rohini Ross (28:32):
What I hear you
pointing to in this section, is
that when we get into a lowmood, we really cannot trust the
content of our thinking. And forMateo, this is quite invisible
to him. He doesn't seem to haveany understanding of how his
(28:54):
mood changes, and how histhinking gets distorted when his
mood drops, it seems that hereally feels that he's just
completely rational and logicalall the time. But in this next
section, you try to attempt totry and attempt at addressing
this through using a ridemetaphor.
Angus Ross (29:17):
Yeah, I think you're
absolutely right. I think that
really, Matteo, his is becomingvery self evident that his mood
is something that really is ablind spot for him. And I think
that that's why I've been reallyharping on about how our thought
is always a reflection of ourstate of mind. And perhaps I got
(29:38):
a little lost in the theneuroscience piece, which is, I
think, totally my paygrade but Ifeel like he's Yeah, he's just
not seeing how his state of mindis really obfuscating the lens
through which he's seeing hisrelationship. And if we can
somehow make some headway there.
Then Then I think we'll see somemovement.
Rohini Ross (30:03):
And I think we can
all relate to that. I think
every one of us experiences goodmoods and low moods. And when we
get reflective and notice it, wecan see how the quality of our
thinking changes based on themood that we're in. It's really
quite common sense. Butoftentimes, especially when
(30:23):
we're in a low mood I know I canspeak for myself, is that we
don't recognize that ourthinking isn't clear in that
moment. And we think that we areseeing things exactly as they
are, we don't realize that ourthinking has got limited and
restricted and is actually notaccurate.
Angus Ross (30:42):
Because it's not at
all complicated what we're
sharing really, at the end ofthe day, we could just talk
about this in terms of beingstate of mind if we become more
become more aware of our stateof mind and how that affects our
thinking. And then how ourthinking born out of my state of
mind really has a strong bearingabout how we see the world that
we live in. And that's a gamechanger right there.
Rohini Ross (31:05):
Yeah, we can tell
that when our thinking gets
distorted it's not even aboutnot having that happen. What
really makes the difference isjust knowing when our thinking
is distorted and recognizingwhen we can trust it like that
is a huge game changer.
Angus Ross (31:22):
Yeah. It's a it's a
it's a it's a right at a
funfair, we go up and down. Weare not mood and we love each
other and we go into low mood,we hate each other. In that low
mood. We can come up with allkinds of shit. You can be an
asshole in that low mood, butyou're not nice or what you're
(31:44):
up when the relationships uphere.
Mateo (31:46):
See, for the most part,
I'm Pirates of the Caribbean
where there's only one drop inone rise, okay, everything else
is pretty fucking flat in mylife. Right? hers. It's
corkscrewing. It's, it jumps totrack sometimes, like it does
crazy shit and how it is I'msitting there and just taking
this beating, you know whetherit's word vomit,
Angus Ross (32:07):
Yeah, but you can't
see it, I guess where I want to
go is you can't see it as you'vetaken a beating. Because you
take dominion over yourfeelings, you're actually the
one with a superpower she can'ttouch you. She can't is nothing
that she can say that can touchyou. Because you're seeing that
she's gone into her bullshit. Ifthe other party is able to hold
(32:28):
a neutral space, and not puttingtheir defenses up, which could
look like, like coony myself inmy secret zone where you can't
touch me. And that's my defensesystem. And they're registering
that if you can actually beneutral and saying, Yeah, I can
see you're kind of fucked up atthe moment. Like, and but I'm
(32:48):
not, it's not gonna affect me.
You're just like, you know,whatever tangent you're going
on. And that's nothing to dowith me. Wow, I was getting on
my high horse a little backthere. Maybe it had too much
caffeine, I don't know, touch ofover exuberance in trying to
drum home my point maybe?
Rohini Ross (33:10):
Well, something
that stands out to me is that in
the way that you were framingit, it was somewhat aligned with
his already quite strong ideathat it's like, Hey, baby, your
issue is nothing to do with me.
Angus Ross (33:26):
Yeah, you do listen
back to that. And I definitely
got a sense that he felt asthough I may be rallying to his
cause. But that was not thedirection that I was going in. I
was just trying to center maybeuse too strong language to sort
of suggest that when someonewhen their state of mind goes
(33:48):
south, and they kind of lose theplot, that they've kind of gone
a little bit crazy, but maybe inthe terms in which I articulated
that he may have well thoughtthat I was you I was suggesting
Yes, you're but but Alicia iscrazy. And that you are the one
that has, you know, is in astate of continual equanimity,
(34:13):
when I was just trying to do wasjust illustrate the point that
yeah, this person has got caughtup. And you know, you don't have
to take that personally. Andideally, you probably have some
compassion for the fact thatthat's where their mindset have
gone.
Rohini Ross (34:26):
Yeah, I think
that's the important part for me
that when we genuinely can seethat somebody's behavior when
they're angry when they're upsetthat that's a reflection of them
suffering, and we aren't takingit personally, we tend to feel
some compassion and empathy inthat situation. And again, I
want to emphasize again, theimportance of us not condoning
(34:51):
acting out behavior. So we'renot saying that it's okay. If
somebody's acting out in anangry or aggressive way and that
we are coming doning that, butwe are saying that the more if
we're on the receiving end ofthat, we can see that that's got
nothing to do with us. Andthat's a reflection of that
person's state of mind, the moreclarity we will have, the more
(35:15):
empowered we will feel, to beable to take action that is
going to be self honoring, andto make healthy choices for
ourselves. So we're absolutelynot saying you have to stay
there and receive whatever theanger is, but it's in that
clarity of knowing that it's notpersonal, that it's about their
(35:35):
state of mind that then you cantake the action that is in your
best interest in that moment,and ultimately, probably for the
highest good of everybody.
Angus Ross (35:44):
Yeah, because you
when when when we find a way to
move to that higher ground,which hopefully, you know,
that's what I was trying tosuggest to Matteo is that you
will be able to identify thesuffering that your partner is
experiencing. And you won't, youknow, view this situation as you
behaving like, you know, feelinglike you're being a doormat,
(36:04):
you're actually you're seeingthe suffering and, and you can
very least have a sense ofneutrality about that situation.
And at the very best have thisexperience of compassion, that
knowing that what they're goingthrough is, is really born out
of suffering, it's as simple asthat. And that they don't need
to take it personally doesn'tneed to take it personally, but
(36:25):
we haven't got there yet.
Rohini Ross (36:27):
No, but you do give
it another shot,
Angus Ross (36:30):
Right, I do ! I do
not going down without a fight.
For my money change, really, youknow, the it's, it's so funny,
and you know, from my ownexperiments, and then in doing
this, you know, time and timeagain, people usually come in
(36:53):
with this, you know, coming to arelationship where if it doesn't
feel right, this is sort of hopethat things will, you know,
they'll be able to change theperson or the person will
change, it's kind of like thatgrass is always greener
mentality that once they changethis aspect of this past, their
personality, everything will begood. But it's kind of like
there's something, there's someshift that needs to take place
(37:16):
for my money anyway, well, thatjust has to be taken off the
table. It's kind of like, Ithink, and I've seen this time
and time again, people canfigure things out. And the shift
comes when they just, they kindof maybe the person or the
spouse can carry on regardlesswith their behavior. But it's a
case of not taking thatpersonally anymore. And in the
(37:38):
same way that we do corporatework, it's like, when we have
dysfunction in a corporateenvironment, it's usually
because people are taking eachother's behavior personally, and
then then there's conflict iskind of like letting that go.
And something about that lettingthat go, elicits change. But
there's a metaphor like that Ilike to use where and I've heard
(37:59):
this, it's not my own metaphor.
But apparently, there is anaeronautical principle that if
you get into a tailspin, you aresupposed to just let go the
controls and and the craft willwrite itself. And it's kind of
like my intellect wants to likefigure things out wants to
control since it wants tocontrol our environment. And,
and really hang on for dearlife. And it's kind of like in
(38:22):
terms of how you're explainingthe dynamic between you, you
kind of both really hanging onto those controls, because you
want to figure things out. Butin a sense, you just got to let
it go. And that letting it go isjust not taking any of the other
person's behavior personally.
And unless they're physicallyharming you, there's really
nothing they can do to affectyour thinking, that is all on
(38:45):
you or me or it's all on us. Weare kind of masters of our own
domain, masters of our ownintellect, and all the stuff
that we make up in the face ofsomeone else's behavior. It's
just stuff that we make up. It'sjust an illusion. It's the
matrix that we go into. Yeah,that's coming from you taking it
personally, you took all of thatpersonally, and...
(39:05):
It's not personal. It's my lifethat I'm taking personal. It's
Oh my God, I'm spending myFriday night yelling with this
chick, you know, who's my wife?
So swing my life partner. Whenyou know, I was 29, right? I'm
thinking this in the car. I'mlike, Oh my god, this is the
worst Friday night of my life.
It's not that I'm taking itpersonally. I'm taking the waste
(39:26):
of my time in my lifepersonally, right? That's the
words don't affect me the timethat I can't get back. That
affects me the things that Icould be doing other than in
that moment, yelling, bitchingcrying all this shit. That's
what I take personally, not thewords, words I don't care about.
I'd rather be you know, on thebeach, taking a walk doing
(39:48):
whatever other than that in thatmoment.
Well, yeah, I mean, the wordsreally just, you know, I mean,
the words are just what we puton our feelings. Yeah, but
you're taking the feelingspersonally. You're taking her
level of feeling personally.
Unknown (39:59):
I'm taking, I'm
assuming, from taking away waste
what I consider wasted timepersonally.
Rohini Ross (40:07):
I really don't
understand what he means when he
says he's taking the waste ofhis time personally.
Angus Ross (40:14):
Well, I think he's
actually grasping at straws. And
I didn't, I think he doesn'tunderstand what it means to take
someone else's behaviorpersonally, because it is still
all amounts to the same thing.
He can take her, he can say thathe's not taking her shouting, or
anger personally. And he's nowsaying, Oh, it's all about the
(40:36):
fact that she's kind of robbingme of my time or time that I
could spend doing spend doingother things that would be more
enjoyable. But it's still he'smaking her responsible for his
well being or robbing him of hiswell being. So yes, of course,
he's taking it taking herbehavior personally, it's her
(40:59):
behaviors, always her behaviorher behavior is, is robbing him
of time as far as he'sconcerned. And that's how he's
taking it personally, eventhough he's saying is not taking
it personally. He is.
Rohini Ross (41:14):
Yeah, there's two
things that he's really not
seeing. One is that he's notable to see that Alicia's
behavior is a reflection of herstate of mind and the thinking
that she's identifying withinthe moment. And the other thing
that he doesn't seem able toreally see is that he has choice
in the situation, it feels, theway that he talks about it, the
(41:36):
he has absolutely no choice andno ability to take care of
himself and to set healthyboundaries with her.
Angus Ross (41:44):
Yeah. And it's kind
of almost like, for me, when I
listen to Mateo at this point,he doesn't really understand the
line of questioning or what I'mtrying to share. So it reminds
me and my brother went throughthis years ago, there are some
kind of training that you can doin Ireland, probably you can do
it worldwide, I'm sure there arepolitical consultants every day,
(42:07):
training politicians how to dealwith the media, my brother went
through this training, and theykind of they put you through the
situation where you might haveto feel the really difficult
question, or be expected to comeup with an intricate answer, you
know, being pressed to come upwith an answer. And so the
training consists of like doingeverything you can to avoid
(42:28):
having to give the answer that'sexpected of you, and look for
ways to do that. And keep ondoing that until the person the
interviewer gives up. And in asense, that's kind of how I feel
with Matteo, he doesn't reallyget this whole idea of, of
seeing that. It's nothing to dowith with Alicia in terms of
(42:50):
his, his well being beingaffected. It's all to do with
his line of thinking. And soyeah, he's pulling, he's trying
to pull every hat out the bagthat he can now it's about being
robbed of his time is precioustime.
Rohini Ross (43:03):
You know, it
reminds me of how you felt
completely victimized by Nikkoor puppy when we got him to you.
And that you weren't able to seethat there was any possibility
that you could have well beingwith this dog with the way that
he was behaving.
Angus Ross (43:21):
Yeah, I was
convinced I was gonna be 100%
robbed of all future well being,I'll be getting a good night's
sleep having a moment to relax.
It seemed like his unrelentingpersona would be a real thorn in
my side. So when we got Nico,our Dearly beloved Husky, and
(43:43):
we've got him from a rescuecenter, the surrogate caretaker,
actually ran a bird sanctuary.
And so in her mind in and in herinnocence, the best way to deal
with this dog, who probablywanted to eat eat all of her
rescued birds, was to put it ina muscle a muscle. So anyway, I
(44:06):
guess we kind of won the lotteryor I don't, I didn't feel like
that at the time. But shedecided we would be the ideal
owners for this doc. And so whenwe got him home, obviously, you
know, the first thing we did istake the muzzle off you know,
you can kiss this goodbye Thisis going to be part of your
experience of being againanymore. He then proceeded to
(44:27):
just to go nuts and and youknow, bit everything inside, but
not in a in an aggressive way ina playful way, but you're
constantly being Nord act. Andit was just literally
unrelenting You know, every,every available opportunity to
jump on the couch or jump on usand and jump on the bed and and
it went on to ad nauseum as faras I was concerned. And you
(44:50):
know, you're trying to get onwith your life and you've got
this dog going nuts. You know,I'm doing a zoom call with a
coach and my my client isperhaps having a very, very
emotional month. And the dogskind of leaping on me and biting
my head in my arm and everyother extremity that's available
to him. So I decided this isimpossible, we can't move
forward, and we're gonna have togive the dog back. And, and I
(45:13):
made the decision that that'swhat's gonna happen, you know
this is untenable, the dog hasto be returned to the caretaker.
And so and so I started makingnoises to that effect. And, you
know, I managed to get my wifeand my youngest daughter on
board, and then I actuallymanaged to get the the rescue
(45:34):
center on board, although theydid actually present me with
this caveat, before that I madethat final decision, would I at
least see this trainer and I waskind of a little bit, I was, you
know, at that point, my mind wasmade up. But I did have to have
a conversation with my eldestdaughter, who I actually thought
at that point would be the theleast least resistant to the
(45:54):
idea of the dog being returned,because he didn't seem that
excited about the acquisition, Ithink, probably because as it
turns out, she wanted, you know,wanted a very small puppy, not a
dog that was four months old.
But anyway, I thought I wasn'tgonna have a problem here. And
actually, she gave me the thirddegree and said, you know, you
can't give the dog back. Nowyou've made your decision, you
got to kind of major barely gota line here. So I thought I was
just I wasn't expecting that.
(46:18):
And so anyway, I thought, well,maybe I'll have another
conversation with the rescuecenter. Because it's, you know,
I still feel like this dog is apain in the neck, and I want it
return. And, and then she stilltook this line of like, you
know, just just try out thistrain and see what happens, you
know, reserve your, yourjudgment until you've had this
(46:39):
experience with a trainer.
Anyway, cut a long story short,the trainer was really not
training the dog, the trainerwas training me. So the dog was
really acting out and just beinga dog, a four month old puppy
wanting to have fun, and, andwhen that fun got too much for
me, I was tending to get angry,I was getting reactive. And, and
that's how I dealt with the dogis, you know, you know, shouting
(47:02):
at it or taking a hard line inthat respect. And then the
trainer said to me, Well, youknow what the most important
thing in your relationship withhis dog is that you never lose
your temper, you kind of youknow, you can have your
boundaries, and you've got to beawful wolf. But as soon as you
lose your temper, that will beseen as a line of weakness that
will be seen as a sign ofweakness, and he'll take full
(47:24):
advantage of that. And lo andbehold, she was absolutely
right. Every time I lost my slotwith this dog, it would go nuts,
and make a bad situation 10times worse. But when I tried on
this, this new approach of like,you know, here's my boundary,
and I'm going to deliver thisinformation with neutrality. And
yeah, there will be aconsequence you, you might have
(47:46):
to be, I don't know, put on aleash or or put into the crate
or whatever, you know, wedecided to do. As long as I did
all of that from a place ofneutrality. It was, it works out
fine. But soon as I got angry,the dog just went crazy and
would react and not in an angryway in return, it would just be
kind of like, Oh, this is funand games. I don't know why I
(48:07):
don't know this experience verywell is this, this is fun, isn't
it and do everything that I Iwanted, it wouldn't do anything
that I wanted it to do. Soanyway, so that was the story of
this dog, for me was thisincredible lesson in neutrality
and not taking his behavior?
Personally, I have the thingsthat I you know, I have my
(48:29):
standards and expectationsabout, you know, how life of
this dog will be. But as long asI continue to sort of have an
exact those standards in aneutral way, I'll be good to go.
Wow, that was that was a longstory.
Rohini Ross (48:47):
Well, the key point
that I love about that story is
that you were personalizing adog's behavior. And that was
what was upsetting you. And thatwhen we were educated by the
trainer, about the normalcy ofNico and when he was up to and
that really he just needed tobe, have some boundaries set and
(49:10):
that you could take care ofyourself and I could take care
of myself. It wasn't that we hadto endure being jumped on and
bitten for the rest of our daysthat we had to create rapport
with him, we had to build trust,and that we were reacting to the
own narrative that we werecreating in our own mind about
what this meant in the future,when really we just needed to
(49:31):
understand how to be firm andkind and loving, but not to go
overboard in terms of thereactivities the way that you
saying,
Angus Ross (49:40):
Yeah, and if you
know, the more that I reflect on
this, and this is I think acrossthe board in the terms of the
work that we do, what I thinkthat I really learnt out of that
whole exercise was was the valueto being present with what is
here I am confronted with a dogwhich is actually being nothing
more than a happy four monthyear old Puppy doing what
(50:01):
puppies do, and you know isdedicated to having fun and
jolly Japes. And, and I'mgetting into I'm kind of really
being fueled by this negativefuture fantasy and my conceptual
mind or all these ideas of howthis dog is going to actually
upset the applecart in terms ofyou know, my well being. And as
soon as I sort of bought intothat train of thought, that's
(50:23):
where the anger and the activitywould come from worse, if I'm in
a place where, you know, I don'thave to lose my temper here. And
really, I'm only losing mytemper, because I'm getting into
that negative future fantasy, ifI actually find a way to be
present with what is the dog isbeing perfectly normal. And if I
see that, that's going to makeit much better, or I'm going to
be much better equipped to havethis sense of neutrality. And
(50:46):
from that place, there's noreactivity, there's really, I
mean, in an ideal world, there'sactually some compassion here.
Yes, this poor dog was like, hadto live its first few months of
life with a muzzle on and ofcourse, it's gonna like, you
know, it's like, freedom. Let'sgo crazy. So, it was for me,
yeah, that's been an incrediblelearning. It was an incredible
(51:07):
learning curve. But I think mostof all, by that idea, like, you
know, being present to what iswithout all of the old patterns
of thinking that were reallybeing projected into the future,
about how that future could lookreally kind of alarming. And the
more that I allow my mind tofester, and in that, in that
made up experience, the worstthings got.
Rohini Ross (51:29):
And what you're
speaking to is the importance of
your own state of mind, and howthat was really what was at
play. It wasn't really Nico'sfault that you were basically
feeling like a victim, notbecause of the dog, but because
of how you were relating to yourown thoughts in the moment.
Angus Ross (51:48):
Yeah, I mean, I was
a complete victim, to my own
negative future fantasy hasnothing to do with Nico. All of
my feelings and reactivity inthat moment, were based on
something that actually hadn'thappened. And as it turns out,
never didn't happen. Yeah, he'sa lovely, lovely boy. And I
adore him. And oh, my goodness,thank goodness, I didn't, didn't
(52:10):
take him back to the shelter.
Rohini Ross (52:12):
Yeah, I'm very
grateful. And you start to go in
this direction now with Mateo interms of turning away from
focusing on what he's upset withthe least about. And now you
start to check in more with himabout how he's doing. And I
(52:34):
think that's a great directionthat you went in at this point.
Angus Ross (52:37):
Yeah, absolutely. I
mean, I kind of, upon
reflection, I would have ideallylike to talk more about seeing
her psychological innocence, Idon't know if that would have
given me more leverage in themoment. And I did harp on about
him taking her behaviorpersonally. But it would have
been, I don't know, who knows ifhe was, I would be able to hear
(53:00):
that. But I felt if I had reallypointed more to her
psychological innocence in theway that, you know, you can see
that when she's caught up, and Iuse terms like her going crazy,
maybe there will be in a morepalatable way to address that,
in a sense, and really, youknow, for her, for him to see
her suffering, to see that shehas got got caught up for
(53:20):
whatever reason, she's caughtup. And that's, that's a way
that she has, she's sufferingwith her thinking, and I didn't
really I feel like if I'd gonemore in that direction, or maybe
even use that language, whoknows, that might have been
easier for him to hear, but hewas definitely finding it really
hard to sort of adopt this ideathat, you know, I'm taking her
(53:41):
behavior personally, like, Ithink, you know, I don't know,
it's like, in his mind is like,what does that even mean? That's
why I'm getting the sort of thepoliticians response.
Rohini Ross (53:52):
And that's why I
think it's great that you took a
different tack here and startedto really check in with him
about himself.
Angus Ross (53:58):
Yeah. Okay, let's
see what happens.
Well, that's well, can I ask youabout your, your, your moods?
Because I mean, we all you know,as human beings, we get into low
moods from time to time. Howwould you describe yourself in
that respect? Do you feel likeyou're kind of pretty much a
(54:18):
content person you had thisperiod of your life where, you
know, and obviously, it soundedvery tough. And we would
probably define that as a periodof time when you're in a
particularly low mood so thatyou know, suicidal tendencies
come, you know, typically fromthat space, yeah. Is that
something is like, you know,your, your sort of regular
chair, regular temperature, areyou feeling like you're kind of
(54:40):
more and in a state of wellbeing or do you tend to sort of
drift to the other side of thespectrum.
Mateo (54:48):
I feel like I'm a happy
person and really driven and
really enjoying my work. I thinkmost people would say that I'm
I'm happy and I am in my mind alot. I'm a thinker.
Angus Ross (55:03):
Yeah
Mateo (55:03):
That's what I do is Yeah,
I really sit, I observe. And I
play out scenarios and how Ican, you know, I mean, on and I
explain it like, I can seeeverything.
Angus Ross (55:20):
So I listened to
that. And I think it may be
important at this point to saythat I decided to bring up the
suicidal ideation that he wasexperiencing at one point in his
life that, you know, didn'thasn't really cropped up in any
of the other recordings. It wassomething that I was aware of,
but I felt like it was importantto maybe look at them the role
(55:42):
that mood plays, so if you havea tendency to sort of get into a
low mood, and I kind of get asense that he does, then then
it's really important to addressthe fact that his low state of
mind will surely have a have aneffect on the optics through
which he's seeing therelationship. So I wanted to
really, I guess, I'm trying tosort of press home the point
(56:04):
that it'll be very worthwhileconsidering that, how, you know,
whether he's able to receivethat information, we'll see. But
that was something that Iwanted, that that's something I
know I set out to do here.
Because Yeah, you know, state ofmind will always have an effect
on the way that we see the worldthat we live in.
Rohini Ross (56:23):
And we want
everybody to recognize that
that's not just true in thisrelationship. When ever anybody
is in a low mood that's going toimpact how they see their life
is going to impact how they seeevery aspect of their life. And
when we're in a low mood, wereally can't trust our thinking
when we're in that state ofmind.
Angus Ross (56:51):
The importance of
this next bit is that it
indicates how Mateo doesn'trealize that a busy mind is
anonymous with Aloma. So,obviously, he is, you know, he
admits to being an over thinker.
But he doesn't, he doesn't seehow a low mood and having a busy
mind are kind of one in thesame.
Rohini Ross (57:18):
I would agree. And
that he actually thinks all of
the overthinking is a reallygood thing. Rather than
recognizing that he's actuallynot able to have a clear mind
when he's got a busy mind.
Angus Ross (57:36):
And I can see that
you're a deep thinker. And there
are there are some disadvantagesaround that. So I understand
that, you know, an active brain.
The active mind is justbasically trying to figure
things out Finally, you know,creating stories, storing away
data. And we tend to sort offorget, you know which side our
bread is buttered, which is it'slike the intelligence behind
(57:57):
like working through us, givingus new information, new fresh
thinking. That is actuallythat's the sweet spot. But we
get so reliant on on what we'vestored away up here as the way
to move forward. That we're kindof missing the point. We have
our intellects, and they'rereally powerful. It's kind of
(58:18):
like they can also lead us leadus into trouble as well. Yes,
and to anxiety they lead us intosuffering.
Mateo (58:28):
I mean, thinking about
all the turmoil we've had, yeah,
absolutely. probably not a goodexercise for myself and for the
well being of a relationship.
Yeah, absolutely.
Angus Ross (58:37):
Well, that's, that's
that's a ray of sunshine right
there. Hopefully. I mean, I, youknow, hope, I hope I can feel
cautiously optimistic that he'sseen something here. But yeah,
maybe who knows the fact thathe's now starting to acknowledge
that maybe the fact that he'sruminating on the relationship
and the way that he has is notreally going to be of service to
(59:01):
him or her moving forward?
Rohini Ross (59:04):
And I would say
there are some more rays of
sunshine coming in the nextsegment where he does take some
responsibility
Angus Ross (59:13):
But I wanna be sure,
they you know, you're taking
accountability for how you showup and what you say,
Mateo (59:19):
Absolutely. I know, I've
been a piece of shit to her. I
know that I've been thisabsentee husband, I know that
but something brought me to thatI wasn't born without
compassion. On the contrary, Ihave a lot of love to give. I
just don't feel like either it'sthe right opportunity to give
(59:41):
that love because I'm not okay.
Or I can't give the love.
Because I'm not okay. That does.
I see that. Trust me because ithurts me not being able to be
you know, come home and just putme in a smack and kiss on my
wife and put my arm around heron the couch, like how you
(01:00:02):
doing? Right? Like, that's whatI want to do. But I don't get
the chance to do that in myhousehold. All right. It's not
like a Hey, how you doing? Youknow what I'm doing great. You
know, I saw this, I saw thisflower today. And I was just
wondering like, gee, what kindof plants do you think they have
on other planets? Like, what doyou think? Like, it's nothing
like that. It's always someserious fucking dark shit she's
going through?
Rohini Ross (01:00:26):
Well, it is nice to
hear him taking some
accountability for his behavior.
But he is doing it with thecaveat that it's because of her
behavior that he's being the wayhe is.
Angus Ross (01:00:39):
Yeah, I think he's
kind of cleverly putting a mask
over his victim mindset, whichto me is very apparent. And
we're not out of the woods yet.
We may even be deep in theforest. But we'll see somewhat
early days, but we'll see how wemove forward.
Rohini Ross (01:00:55):
And you are
persistent. You got it one more
time.
Angus Ross (01:00:58):
I am certainly
tenacious. You're timely, that
that hard behavior is causingyou to suffer, but I'm really
gonna continue in this vein,that the only you you create
your own suffering?
Mateo (01:01:16):
Mm hmm.
Angus Ross (01:01:17):
And it's there, you
know, we all have our blind
spots. It's, you know, whenwe're introduced, this
understanding is like, yeah,it's understanding I get it, it
makes sense. But if it wasn'tfor this one area, that's where
you know, doesn't hold anywater. So you're kind of like
righteously sticking to your, toyour, your guns, this one, but
(01:01:38):
I'm gonna keep going in thisdirection. Because I think
there's definitely, you know,even if, I mean, I would like to
think things have changed. Buteven if they don't, this is
really, this is valuableinformation. Because it is kind
of a superpower. In the same wayin the corporate understanding,
we show them how they can bediscouragement proof. And they
(01:01:59):
don't get affected by what otherpeople say or how they behave or
act. And in that settled state,they get new ideas, fresh
thinking, new ways to moveforward.
Mateo (01:02:14):
Yeah, no, I get it. I do
get it. Just wondering which
which side of the coin is gonnabe getting this? Well, I think
deep understanding, you know
Angus Ross (01:02:23):
I think the cool
thing is, is that it's kind of
that and again, the plastic allboats rise with the tide, as
soon as someone kind of likegets it. The other person kind
of follows suit, or, you know,what happens if someone gets it,
there's a shift that actually,there's some healing that comes
in the shift was just one persongetting it that things start to
feel better. So you actuallycould just kick back and do
(01:02:45):
nothing. We could just talkabout sports or something. If
she has a shift we'll be good togo.
Mateo (01:02:52):
Yeah, as long as one
person shifting right, yeah,
rising tides.
Angus Ross (01:02:55):
Yeah. So in a sense,
doing couples work is actually
quite cool. Because it's like,we only need to get one person
to get an insight and we are ingood shape.
Mateo (01:03:02):
Well, I know that there's
a TV la here, you can bring your
TV.
You can catch up on all theseshows, you know, it's funny,
yeah.
Rohini Ross (01:03:14):
Given how
persistent you've been with him,
and how you have refused to seehim as a victim in this
situation, no matter how hard hetries to convince you otherwise,
I think it's pretty amazing thatyou have the level of rapport
that you do with him. And it'sreally great to see that light
(01:03:35):
hearted experience that you haveat the end, he's clearly in a
better mood after the session.
Angus Ross (01:03:40):
Yeah, I mean, it's
kind of a testament to his
character. It's interesting thatthe rapport, you know, he's
obviously, he's very sensitiveto what's going on in his
relationship. So you think heprobably might be, might be a
little bit on the sensitive sideif I was to Badger him too much.
But you know, nevertheless,we've come through that and, and
the relationship between he andI is seemingly really good. I
(01:04:02):
mean, he's a great guy, I reallylove him.
Rohini Ross (01:04:04):
And he's not taking
anything that you say
personally, which is reallyimpressive.
Angus Ross (01:04:08):
I know. He's not.
Rohini Ross (01:04:10):
And from my point
of view, that good feeling and
his lightness and definitelyhaving shifted in that direction
throughout the session. To methat's so important for the work
and, and really more importantthan him having seen anything at
this point.
Angus Ross (01:04:28):
Yeah, I kind of came
away from that session, feeling
quite hopeful, actually feelingvery hopeful, because I saw how
his mood changed in a reallybeautiful way. And, and, you
know, if really from thatvantage point, I hope that he'll
start to see how therelationship takes on an
altogether different complexionfrom those good feelings.
Rohini Ross (01:04:52):
And so next week,
we'll hear how my session goes
with Alicia
Angus Ross (01:04:57):
Sounds good.
Rohini Ross (01:05:04):
Thank you so much
for listening to Rewilding Love.
If you enjoyed this podcast,please let us know by
subscribing on iTunes. And wewould love for you to leave a
review there.
Angus Ross (01:05:15):
iTunes reviews will
steer people to this podcast who
need help with betterrelationships.
Rohini Ross (01:05:21):
If you would like
to learn more about our work and
our online Rewilding Community,please visit our website,
therewilders.org
Angus Ross (01:05:29):
Thanks for
listening. Join us next week.