EP6: Walking on Eggshells

Alicia reveals to Rohini that she felt completely blindsided by Mateo's unhappiness in their relationship. She blames Mateo and struggles to examine her own role in the status of the relationship. Rohini helps Alicia to let go of judgments that create the experience of shame for her so she can peel back the layers of denial and see how her reactivity has been pushing Mateo away. 

With her guard down, Alicia begins to explore her inner experience and how her own emotions, not Mateo's, can give her warning signals regarding her state of mind, and her need to take care of herself when her mood drops. Rohini explains how having the understanding that our internal experience is created from within, doesn't mean behaviors can't change, but shifts in behavior result from internal shifts in understanding and are much more likely when there is goodwill in the relationship. 

Alicia experiences greater freedom when she realizes she is not responsible for what Mateo is feeling. If she can stop working so hard trying not upset him, she'll reduce the resentment that has built up from all that hard work not going anywhere. By realizing she's not responsible, she can eliminate the feeling of walking on eggshells, and contribute to creating a feeling of goodwill in the relationship. Not feeling guilty and responsible, leaves a person feeling more open-hearted.

This episode explores:

• A shift in understanding is necessary for behavioral change.
• It is okay to be on the learning curve of navigating difficult emotions.
• Self-care is the first priority when experiencing upset.
• We all live in separate realities - life looks different through our separate lenses
• Seeing psychological innocence in others helps reduce blame and resentment. We are all only ever doing our best given how we see things.
• Shifting the focus from blame to seeing the role of state of mind in relationships.

Show notes
Tenderization: A new coaching term Angus has created to describe one's guard coming down.
Hot potato: A party game that involves players gathering in a circle and tossing a small object such as a beanbag or even a real potato to each other while music plays. The player who is holding the object when the music stops is eliminated.
Carte blanche: Complete freedom to act as one wishes or thinks best.
Teflon: A brand of non-stick pans, i.e. being immune to someone else's reactivity.

Podcast music
Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area. Episode 6 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity.

Feedback: [e-mail]

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: TheRewilders.org.

Episode Transcript

Angus (00:03):
Welcome to Rewilding Love. This season is with a
couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini (00:10):
This is episode number 6. Alicia, walking on eggshells.

Mateo (00:17):
I may have just made the biggest mistake of my life.

Alicia (00:19):
I don't understand where things went wrong. In any given
moment his vibe changes and it'slike boom like you hate me all
of a sudden,

Rohini (00:27):
Understand that our experience comes from within, to
me is the ultimate andempowerment.

Mateo (00:34):
I had divorce papers signed and ready to go.

Angus (00:37):
Right in a funfair, we go up and down. We are not moving,
we love each other and we go andwe hate each other.

Mateo (00:43):
See, for the most part, I'm Pirates of the Caribbean
where there's only one drop andone rise. Okay. Everything else
is pretty pretty flat. My life,right? hers. It's corkscrewing.
It's it jobs to track sometimes.
It does crazy shit.

Alicia (00:58):
Basically diagnosing me with borderline personality
disorder.

Angus (01:02):
Wow, you can see how mother in law's gets such a bad
rap.

Alicia (01:06):
I'm not this monster.

Rohini (01:08):
No, we want her to decide what to do about the
relationship. When she's onstable ground. I'm not saying
that she would need to stay withhim.

Angus (01:18):
You are listening to Rewilding Love with me, Angus
Ross, and me Rohini RossRewilding Love is a podcast
about relationships.

Rohini (01:28):
We believe that love never disappears completely in
relationships. It can always berewilded, listen in as we guide
a real couple back to theirnatural state of love.

Angus (01:39):
Relax, and enjoy the show.
So I must say, I found thisepisode quite refreshing. After
my exhaustive attempts to leaveno stone unturned with Mateo. In

(02:04):
this perspective, getting to seethat odisea is not responsible
for corrupting his sense of wellbeing. You on the other hand,
seem to do a masterful job ingetting to see exactly that,
with with the cards turned inthe other direction. So Mateo is
not responsible for corruptingher well being.

Alicia (02:23):
Well, she definitely had some lightbulb moments and I
think, opened up her eyes toseeing things differently, which
was really lovely. But shedefinitely started off blaming
him and feeling like he wasresponsible for her behavior,
through his behavior, and thatpushed her to the brink.

Angus (02:44):
Yeah, but but nevertheless, you were then able
to rather expertly in myestimation, use that as a way to
clarify how he is notresponsible for, for her
suffering.

Alicia (03:03):
Based on what we talked about, this morning, and you
kind of seeing things fresh andnew, it seems like one of the,
you know, I was reflecting onand thinking about the key
themes, one was free for youseeing that, oh, when he gets
destabilized, you don't need totake it personally. And then the
other piece was the recognitionthat when you get stirred up,

(03:26):
that the more you kind ofunderstand what's happening for
you, then the less likely youare going to be to react from
that place. So does that makesense?
Yeah, for sure. I think it'sgonna be one of those things,
it's gonna be a lot, not trialand error, so to speak, but a
lot of practice, yeah, torecognize when he does go there.
Because I, I view him in such adifferent perspective than

(03:49):
everybody else in my life,essentially. And I view him with
like, really high regard, is totry and remember, like, whatever
he's saying, it's because hestood up and it's not like,
yeah, me. Yeah, that's gonnatake a lot of active practice, I
think.

Rohini (04:03):
What makes it look like that might be difficult?

Alicia (04:07):
Um, I guess what would make it difficult as I think
just the current state thatwe're in, we're like, I'm, I'm
uneasy about it. Like, I just,I'm not completely certain where
his head is at or what he'struly thinking, because
sometimes, one of the thingshe's told me is like, Have you
not seen the signs or this andthat, and it's like, well,

(04:27):
because she throw mixed signalsat me, like, in a certain
moment, you want to be all, youknow, in a conversation, having
fun, but then seconds later,like, you switch modes, and so I
need to figure out how tonavigate when that is to occur.
And recognize that maybe nowhe's in the spots where and let

(04:47):
him be there to start getting inmy own head.
Yeah. And so it sounds I justwanna make sure I'm
understanding it sounds like hecan run hot and cold.
Extremely.

Rohini (04:58):
Okay, so he can be like, totally Final good and
then for just a second, and thenhe's just like, yes, no. Okay.

Alicia (05:05):
And one thing that I've noticed is like when I changed
my mode or mood to be that way,I'd be like, now I'm like, No,
now you've upset me orsomething, then he retracts.
It's like, I don't want thatvicious cycle, because you've
now hurt me now you're like,afraid and want to them, you
guys. It's like, I'd rather livein the peace and harmony. And if
there is a communication, youknow, error or disagreement or

(05:29):
whatever, like, let'sacknowledge it in the moment,
but then move past it like itdoesn't need to be more than 10
minutes. And one of the thingsthat he has said to me before is
like, if we've gotten to likesome sort of altercation nothing
like really traumatic, but saylike a 10 minute argument, that
hasn't been a blow up, but justlike disagreements minds, he
he'll turn around be like, well,now you ruin my whole day. And
I'm like, 10 minutes isn't yourwhole day for ruined? So I

(05:52):
think those are like the otherdisconnects. Yeah, I'm able to
leave things and leave themwithout having to reference in
the past. But he definitelycarries it on, he's admitted to
like kick, he said, it takes hima little longer to process I'm
going to teach him a day or so.
And I'm like, to myself, and Iwouldn't share that with him.
Because I don't want to, likeknock him for it. But I'm like,
I don't think it's necessary toprocess for over four hours.

Rohini (06:15):
Right, right. Well, you're you're pretty adapt. And
it sounds like you probably youknow, this is modeled to you
growing up like you can you cankind of get escalated, but then
it's done over with move on.
Like, you don't need to hold onto anything. So that's kind of
something that you're justnaturally inclined to do.
Whereas it sounds like somethinghappens. And then a kind of

(06:37):
ruminates on it. And in takes awhile before he's able to let it
go.

Angus (06:45):
Yeah, it's interesting that she uses that word
practice. And obviously, and Iand I understand why she would
use that word. I guess, for me,this is more a case of
understanding. And I think thatthrough the experience of taking
on board, this understanding,really, I think how it unfolds,

(07:05):
is the understanding getsclarified, and more clarified,
and more clarified. And that'skind of really how we grow in,
in our levels of consciousnessthrough understanding, we just
get better equipped to see thesituation unfold in real time
where we get caught up, and howwe can make the other party
responsible for how we what, inour, in our innocence, make the

(07:29):
other party responsible for howwe're feeling inside. And
obviously, that is, is thedirection that we are not
pointing in?

Alicia (07:37):
Yeah, it's true, that it's about understanding, and
you could look at it is alearning curve, that over time,
it gets easier and easier to seethat our experience comes from
within it comes from thethoughts that we're identifying
with in our own consciousness.
And it isn't a direct one to onerelationship between what
someone is doing and what we'refeeling that there's the

(07:58):
variable of thought that'sactually what we're
experiencing.

Angus (08:03):
Yeah. And I think that the idea of having to practice
would suggest that you got towork really hard at this, and
you got to use the intellectualmachinery to, in a sense, kind
of summon up this technique inthe moment, which I think is
gonna be counter in a veryprofound way to what we're
pointing to.

Alicia (08:21):
And I'm really looking for Alicia to see more clearly
how Mateo isn't responsible forher experience, and in the last
session, we looked at her beingable to see his insecurity more,
so that she was less likely totake what he was doing
personally. And in this session,what I'm really hoping to

(08:46):
achieve is that she can see howshe can take better care of
herself, so that she doesn't getpushed to the brink and feel
compelled to behave in reactiveway. I really want her to see
that it's in her best interest.
It isn't really about doing thisfor him. It's about her taking
care of herself, and her havingthe benefit of that.

(09:10):
But I think is also going to behelpful to understand what his
how life looks through his lens.
And because I hear two verydifferent lenses, right, your
lens seems very different thanhis lens. And it's not that
it's not that his lens needs tobe any different for actually

(09:33):
things to go better between thetwo of you, because I know that
it could be that well, if he wasjust more positive, then that
would be way in. Why would hewant to do all that ruminating?
He's clearly suffering from it,you see things that you're like,
why would you do that? It justdoesn't make sense to you. But
what I think would be helpful isfor you to really be able to be
putting yourself in his shoesand understand the logic of why

(09:56):
he does it the way he does it.
Not because you have to agreewith it, but because
understanding it is going tohelp you to be able to kind of,
sort of get creative about howto navigate those, like we
talked about, you know, you canfigure out how to deal with
frailties with people, likeyou'll be able to be more

(10:18):
creative about navigating thatwith him. Even if you're not on
the same page.

Angus (10:24):
This sort of sets Alicia up quite nicely to see the tail
psychological innocence, I lovethe way that you prompting her
to consider what it would belike to put yourself in Mateos
shoes. And in that respect, Ifeel like she will start to

(10:45):
maybe have a bit more compassionor start looking in the
direction or having a bit morecompassion.

Rohini (10:50):
Absolutely.

Angus (10:51):
Yeah, go ahead.

Rohini (10:55):
Thank you for your permission. I wasn't sure if
you're finished, that's all.

Angus (11:02):
No. Well, I'm interested to see what your response to
that would be.

Alicia (11:06):
I was really well, I wouldn't. I wasn't thinking in
terms of psychologicalinnocence. Although I agree, I
was really looking at it interms of increasing her empathy,
for her to be able to have moreunderstanding about his
experience. And the naturalbyproduct of that would be for
her to have more compassion. Butthat is another way of saying

(11:28):
seeing his psychologicalinnocence, which is really, I'm
doing my best to try and haveher see that he's doing the best
that he can.

Angus (11:37):
Yeah, so so In this next segment, you're going to
continue to help her see thingsfrom his perspective that you do
not get and you do a reallygreat job of that.

Alicia (11:51):
Would it make sense to you that pushing you away, is
less scary than actually beingclose to you?
I think for him, it is I thinkhe's afraid that he may get to
hurt if he Yeah, if he's tooclose to me. Yeah. But I think
that's counterintuitive in amarriage. And in a relationship.

Rohini (12:10):
No, but could you see how that might make sense to
him? Especially, you know, whenyou said that he says he has
abandonment issues? Like itwould make sense that if his
constant fear is that you're notgoing to be there one day? See,
none of this is rational. Butit's it's kind of these. And a
lot of it is invisible to us. Wedon't even realize that we're

(12:33):
doing it, or we're doing it, butwe think we're doing it for one
reason, when really, it'sanother reason. Because it's
invisible to us. But it's likeif he's really on a deeper
level, scared of intimacy.
Right?

Alicia (12:46):
He's like, terrified.
Like the more associates it haslike sending mixed signals,
because it's like, too intimateand means like, we're fine,
Mike. Yeah, there's moments ofthat for sure. But then there's
also just like, kind of awesomemoments and needs. Yeah. You
know, I think that sometimes TVshave a little bit more, I want
to say like, more like a female,but like, he puts more pressure
on it that way.

Rohini (13:10):
And what what do you mean by that?

Alicia (13:11):
Like, I think like, for women, obviously, we get very
emotionally, like, tied up.
Yeah, when there's intimacy,whereas men typically don't seem
like they always do. And so Ithink that he views it very much
like we do where it's like ithas to be because it's like,
true pure love.
Right? So there's a lot. That'swhat you mean, by having a lot

(13:32):
of pressure on him? Yeah. So. Soagain, because this is about
what you can do in thesituation, whether or not that
shifts for him whether or not hehas an insight that helps him
feel safer in an intimaterelationship. We don't know if
that's going to happeninitially. Right? But if you
have someone who's scared, sofundamentally, what we're

(13:55):
dealing with is his fear and hisinsecurity. It's bridging the
gap so that he can see that it'ssafe. And so when you look at it
that way, do you use? Do you seehow the way you show up, bridges

(14:15):
that gap? And do you see how theway you show up increases that
gap? Do you see the differences?

Angus (14:22):
So what I'm beginning to notice about Alicia is that
she's starting to get into amuch better feeling. And I think
there's a sort of proportionalto that feeling is a is a, I
don't know an attitude, which isstarting to become
philosophical, morephilosophical, rather than

(14:43):
judgmental like that.

Alicia (14:45):
Absolutely. I agree that she's able to take more of a
step back and see things withmore perspective. And so she's
taking things less personally.
And I did ask her quite apointed question. In that, can
she see how her behavior wouldhave an impact on Matteo given
that he's sensitive toreactivity? And she actually

(15:09):
wasn't able to answer thatquestion in the way that I posed
it. So I did take a differenttag to see if she was able to
see from that perspective, howher behavior damages rapport
with Mateo. And so I do thathere.

(15:34):
In September, when he finallytold me, he was unhappy, and so
far as looking at papers, itsounds like you had no idea
before then.
I was clueless.
Okay, so he was keeping this allinternal. And all of a sudden,
you were gone a lot anyway. Butthen he says, In September, this
isn't working for me. And hisreasons, were...

(15:56):
Nothing, I didn't want to be inthis relationship anymore. That
is the words like I'm not inlove with you.
So Alicia here really is adamantthat she didn't know. And that
this came completely out of theblue. And I think that that's
important to take note, becauseit's difficult for all of us to

(16:19):
take responsibility and personalaccountability for our behavior,
especially if we have shameassociated with that. And I
think that part of the reasonwhy she starts off with this, I
had no idea point of view isthat that that's much more
comfortable for her. And it'smuch more painful for her to

(16:42):
actually see that some of herbehavior was very difficult, and
really had a negative impact onthe relationship. And so it's
really key for me to create avery safe space for her, so that
she can take that step back,like I said earlier and have
some neutrality, and be able tolook at things without becoming

(17:06):
consumed by shame for herself.
And so that's what she was ableto do here. So I really want to
acknowledge her for her courageand her willingness to reflect.
Because she was able to startlooking more deeply and see
things more clearly.
That it was a part of his life,because I have my blow ups or
whatever. And a lot of the timeswhen I would have those blow

(17:27):
ups, it would be because I'd behome. And I only have like four
or five days at home and he'srunning off to hang out with his
friends and I got jealous.
Definitely. I want to spend timewith you. Right, like when I'm
away, and I'm away also, like,you can hang out with your
friends. And I felt like I wasthe last priority. And that's
something I've always expressedhim as like, I never felt like I
came first. Okay, I always feltlike he I put him first.

(17:49):
Okay. So in his mind, the thething that he mentioned, was
some blow ups was was hard forhim. And I'm not saying this is
accurate, but but to the best ofwhat you you know, it could be
in his mind that these blow upsare intolerable. I can't be
married to someone who blows upthis way. So we need to get a

(18:11):
divorce. And he says it and butthen he does really care about
you and doesn't really wantthat. And so it doesn't move
forward. But you've been in kindof this. No Man's Land? Yeah,
for all this time since then,because he hasn't been able to
really get on board with themarriage and with you as you are

(18:32):
Right. I feel like sometimes heknows how to trigger me and
like, because I think he'sscared and insecure. Like, he
almost wants to put me in thesame state.
And then and that makes sense.
Because people what happens is,it's like if you have so
everyone's moods go up and down,right? So you have two people,
one person's in a low mood,let's say one person's in a good

(18:55):
mood. Typically, one person isgoing to either pull that person
down, or this person's going tohelp pull that one up. So when
he gets into a low scared state,it sounds like he's kind of
like, Oh, it's like the poll isto sort of join him down there.
And then eventually do you blowup and then it's kind of like a

(19:16):
self fulfilling prophecy wherehe's like, we No, see I can't be
married to her look at what shedoes.
That's exactly what it is.

Rohini (19:24):
Okay.

Alicia (19:24):
It's like he's always saying when's the next one? I'm
like, you keep putting it outthere to have another one. It's
like, in the thing is with I'vekind of shared like, one of my
girlfriends is like, I feel likewhat the poking the bear is
like, He's such a culprit. Andthen when he gets what he wants,
then he turns into the victim.
And it's like, That's not fair.

(19:46):
Because I feel like I'm thevictim. Like, I feel like I've
been pushed to a certain point.
Yeah. It's like, I don't want tobe that like, I don't want to
have a blow up like, yeah, Ipull him so many times. I'm
like, the book takes so muchenergy out of me. And then I
have to come down from like it'snot fine.
As I'm listening, I'm lookingfor what? What seems most

(20:06):
leverage and what I'm hearingwhere you're wanting to shift
and where he's saying it wouldbe helpful to him. It sounds
like the, the blowing up doesn'tfeel good to you. And he would
really like to have a differentexperience around that. And he's
also saying that would be reallygreat on his end to not there.
There isn't his own stuff towork on. So from what we talked

(20:29):
about this morning, how do yousee that being helpful? Or is it
even related to the blowing up?
Like, what do you see about thatnow?
I mean, I see how it'scounterproductive. And I see
that like, it doesn't help us.
And it doesn't I know that.

(20:52):
Sometimes I feel like, I feellike with him, like I say things
so many times, like I statedearlier. And it just doesn't
register. Yeah, semester, andthen I start thinking in
different ways. And then itstill doesn't register. And then
it gets me the point. I'm like,what will get you to wait?
Yeah. So that's how he get hisattention.
But that's how I get hisattention. Because otherwise, I
feel like I'm being ignored,ignored, ignored.

Rohini (21:12):
Yeah.

Angus (21:15):
Well, um, she hasn't crossed over to the other side
yet, in the sense that she stillis thinking that Mateo is
responsible for her suffering.
But I do see a certain amount oftenderization that will perhaps
lead to higher ground, or, or,or at least a higher vantage

(21:38):
point where she will begin tosee the sense in what you're
pointing to,

Rohini (21:44):
Is that a new coaching term, tenderization?

Angus (21:46):
is a very important part of the coaching process. So as
I'm concerned, Did I just snoredhere? ot

Rohini (21:52):
You did!

Angus (21:58):
To add a little bit of color to the whole experience.

Alicia (22:01):
So yes, and what I hear in this part is that you can
really get a sense of what herlogic is, like, part of what
she's learned is that she has toblow up to get his attention.
And so of course, she's gonnakeep doing that, if that's the
only way she gets his attention.
The trouble is, it sounds likethat the books just have to get

(22:22):
more in order for her to grabhis attention.

Angus (22:27):
So she's gotten the habit of throwing in this stun grenade
so that she can get everythingthat she needs to say off her
chest. The problem being is thatshe's using a little bit too
much incendiary.

Rohini (22:39):
Otherwise, he doesn't pay attention to what she's
saying.

Angus (22:41):
Right?

Alicia (22:42):
Yeah. Obviously, the rapport in the relationship is
really suffering as a result ofthat. But I think it's important
that, you know, we understandher logic and that she
understands her logic, so thatthen she can start to see what
the other alternatives might be,that would actually work better
in the situation. And so we'rejust going to hear a little bit

(23:05):
more about what her experienceis like. your intentions, and
what he experienced is they'renot lining up, like your good
intentions isn't beingexperienced, like what you were
saying about wanting to, youknow, know, have him know that
you're on his team, and thatyou're on his side, and that
that's not being experiencedthat way.

(23:26):
Yeah. No. And it's, it's hardbecause I feel like and maybe
this is because he's sensitive,or that he's insecure, or
whatever. But I feel likeeverybody else can see that. I
am on his team. Yeah. Right. Andthat my intentions are always
been good and out of like, thegoodness of my heart, but he
knows it.

Rohini (23:45):
Yeah,

Alicia (23:46):
for whatever reason, like, he doesn't want to see
that I'm good, because he wantsto see me as this person that
cuts people out of his life outof my life, but that's my
protection or that I am. Isometimes, like have an issue
with somebody like his mom, butlike he said those names issues
like, I just want to berespected in certain regards.
When all of this transpired, youknow, he didn't tell his friends

(24:10):
and mom and everybody, like, oh,that he wanted to divorce like
his mom cut me off, huh? Like,stop talking to me completely.
Right as it came out. His momsent him a book, um, then I
guess, I guess she got to hertherapist and whatnot. And it
was like, basically diagnosingme with borderline personality

(24:32):
disorder. Oh, my goodness. Thetitle of book was run boy run
and it like came to our houseand I started reading it and I
was like, I remember startedcrying. And this is like, right
after I just had finished therelationship handbook. Because I
didn't want him to get like,upset that I was upset or like
get more angry at me. It waslike I told him I was like, I'm

(24:56):
just hearing because I realizedthat this is your mom's
insecurity with Our situationand this was like her way of
trying to help. But like, thatdoes affect me. Like I think
that that, like, it was such anattack on my character because
when it came out, it's like, I'ma terrible person, I have these
blow up, I have borderlinepersonality disorder and it
wasn't like I was the problem.

(25:19):
And I feel like I'm viewed asnow in front of people. Like, I
feel like they're starting tosee like, where it was both. But
at the beginning, it was like Iwas this horrendous person.
And like, that was really hardto deal with. Because I was
like, I'm not this monster.
Like, yes, I have issues.
Everybody does. But like, itsucked. It eats me up and I like

(25:43):
lose my appetite. And I'm upset,constantly crying, and I don't
want to be constantly growing.
Yeah,Yeah, no, I hear you. I'm glad
you gave me sort of thoseadditional details in terms of
like the book. And so I guess itgives me a sense of how you're
being perceived, and how extremehis experience is, even if
that's not your experience. Likethat's the intensity of what his

(26:05):
experience is.
Or how he's related it to peoplefor them to draw the conclusions
they do. And it's like it withhim or like, given his mom like
to do that. Like it's like,people forget how much I've done
for him and like, how I didn'ttake on all the responsibility

(26:26):
for us to have a household andeverything like it just
everything gets forgotten that Ilike you just saw all of a
sudden I'm terrible person quiton her just divorced her and no
one liked her anyway, orsomething like that. You know,
it's like it. That's what hurtsme. And then him not like, I
don't need an apology for likethe divorce thing or anything.
But I feel like it needs to belike admitted to everybody like

(26:47):
you that it was a mistake. Orthat he doesn't want to be in
this because I feel like I justget looked at like, yeah, in
such a poor way. Or that I'mjust like this idiot that
begging for more abuse in asense.

Angus (27:01):
Wow, you can see how mother in law's gets such a bad
rap. I don't know how Aliciacomes back from that in the
sense that she could neverforgive her mother in law. I'm
sure she will. Hopefully shewill. But that's that's quite a
power play that. That really? Idon't know, I would really take

(27:22):
that very personally. If Ididn't know what I know.

Rohini (27:26):
Now. Well, luckily, your mother in law isn't sending
me books.

Angus (27:33):
That's, that's taking passive aggression to a whole
different level.

Rohini (27:39):
But anyway...

Angus (27:39):
Maybe we not so passive.
That sounds like out nowwarfare, as far as I'm
concerned. See?

Alicia (27:44):
Well, let's come back to focusing on Alicia Matteo. And,
you know, clearly, Alicia doeshave some idea as to why Matteo
served with divorce papers, I'mglad that she's able to share
all of this information with menow, because I'm sure it was
difficult for her. But we'regetting to see a fuller picture

(28:06):
as to what was really going onbetween them and how it got to
that point. And we can reallyhear how much she's suffering,
how she feels misunderstood.
She's taking it very personally.
She's not only upset that shefeels judged by other people,
but I also think she's judgingherself as a terrible person.

Angus (28:29):
Yeah, the the divorce papers are one thing, but I
think if the mother in law hadher way, she'd have men in white
coats coming round to put Aliciain a straight jacket.

Alicia (28:40):
Anyway. So really, you know, looking at the theme of
psychological innocence, Aliciais doing the best that she can
with the understanding that shehas just like Matteo is doing
the same thing. And really whatI'm looking to help her with and
lean into in the next segment isI really want her to see how she

(29:04):
can become more stable withinherself, and how ultimately,
that's going to benefit her, nomatter what happens in the
relationship.
It gets to the point where, likeyesterday, like the blow up did
turn around and I was just like,now I'm done. Like now you've

(29:26):
pushed me to the point of noreturn. I was like, give me the
papers. I'm signing. I was like,I don't want to go to therapy. I
don't want to. I was like I'mdone. I was like you literally
are just hurting me. Yeah. Andthis is been like seven months
of extreme pain and rollercoaster. And as soon as I say
that, then he retreats and he'slike, No, I want us to be
forever and I want us to go totherapy together and I want

(29:47):
like, okay, so if you know allthat Why are you still gonna,
like not work with me there?

Rohini (29:54):
Yeah. Well, as we talked about, when his state of
mind gets destabilized, As kindof all bets are off. And it
seems like it feels, you know,unfair that you kind of being
yourself has been perceived inthis sort of diagnoseable

(30:15):
extreme behavior. But sort of Iwant to kind of put that aside
and really look at what feelsbetter to you. You know. And
what I hear you say is thatyou're recognizing that it feels
better you to feel more stableinternally and to not. And I
would say it would be moreempowering for you to have that

(30:40):
internal stability in a way thatyou can't really be provoked.
Let's say he, whether he's doingit consciously or unconsciously,
you'll feel better, not kind ofbeing able to be pushed to that
point.

Alicia (30:53):
Absolutely. But he knows what triggers me too. And it's
something that I you know,during our first sesion.

Rohini (30:59):
Yeah. So what do you see as the triggers that are
most difficult to not beprovoked by.

Alicia (31:09):
Right now that triggers that are provoking need are
definitely like him sayingdivorce, or leaving or all of
that? Where they he's uncertain.
And he's not certain about us,either. He doesn't know if he
wants this forever. And this andthat, like that old triggers me.
. And puts me in that state offear.

Rohini (31:28):
Yeah. And then you blow up?

Alicia (31:30):
Well, I internalize it, internalize it, till I blow up,
because I'm like, Oh, my God,you're giving me nothing. Like,
like, anytime you said that tome. I've literally just been
like, Okay, I'm gonna give youyour space. Yeah, back off, and
I don't speak about it then. Butthen it's like a few more
actions or a few more things.
And then I'm like, Well, now I'mliterally like, nice. That was
three times now. I'm like, Oh,my God. Like you said, it takes

(31:50):
to make the marriage work. And Ifeel like, I've been holding the
marriage. And my girlfriend thispast week told me she's like,
from what I've seen, it's like,you're the only one doing the
work keeping the marriagetogether. And I'm like, that's
not a good feeling inside. It'sfun for me to know that other
people are seeing that.

Rohini (32:12):
Yeah.

Alicia (32:13):
Like I see them. And I have marriage, friends and happy
marriages. Like, I'm doing allthe work. And like I said, like,
doesn't even make like a bowlpasta for me or like, you know.

Rohini (32:26):
So let's say he gets over his fear. And it's like,
Okay, I'm really, I'm reallyback in. Now, what, what gets
him stirred up is he doesn'tdeal well, with emotional
reactivity. You know, whetherit's from his history, like, for
whatever reason, he doesn't havethe staying power to be able to

(32:48):
handle emotional reactivity. Soand you're saying you don't
really like, know that much ofit anyway. So it's that it's Win
win on both sides. So let's sayhe's, you know, he's in but he's
going to have his moments of,you know, doing all of these
things that he occasionallydoes, hopefully, not with the
same kind of intensity, but he'snot going to be perfect. What I

(33:11):
would say for you is going to beand This to me is really about
personal empowerment, is to beable to write out your emotional
experience, in a way that'sbetter for you. It's as a
byproduct, it's going to bebetter for him. But that's not
the purpose of it. The mainreason is, it's going to be
better for you. Yeah, thebyproduct is it is going to be

(33:32):
better for the relationship. Sowhat I want you to start to see
and you can just be reflectingon this, you know, as we're
talking in between the sessions,and just kind of recognizing,
like, what, what starts to giveyou the clue that you're getting
activate like before the blow uphas to be before the blow up.

(33:55):
But like what starts to let youknow that you're getting stirred
up.

Alicia (34:03):
Not kissing me goodbye before you leave the house or
coming in and out saying hellogives me Hello. Lack of
intimacy. Especially like whenI've tried to like even come up
to him.
So those are all of theexternals, but what how do you
know internally, how do you whatdo you notice is sort of like

(34:24):
what are the the emotionalsignals the physiological
signals that let you know thatyou're starting to get stirred
up?
Um, definitely, like words orlike, even just like any bit of
communication, like we don'treally text throughout the day
or anything,

Rohini (34:43):
But I'm talking about your feelings state, like what
what would let like what wouldbe an early warning signal
internally for you? that letsyou know that you're getting
stirred up.

Alicia (34:53):
Oh, overthinking.

Rohini (34:55):
Okay, and how does that feel?

Alicia (34:57):
Like an anxiety rush.

Rohini (34:59):
Okay. So you feel like the like, beating your heart
beating fast.

Alicia (35:04):
So uncertain, nervous.
So that's so if we're lookingat, you know, this being the
baseline of peace and wellbeing, and this being, you know,
full blown panic attack, you'renoticing it. So when it's kind
of like a seven out of 10 , sowhat I want you to start to get
more familiar with is what is ittwo and a three and a four feel

(35:26):
like, because that's going tohelp you to take better care of
yourself. So when you're at aseven and eight, you know all
that it's like the, the feelingsare pretty strong. And it's,
it's kind of like just thetrains left the station, almost,
you just got to write it out.
But when you start to notice forlike, I'm getting a little
stirred up to three, thenthere's much more of a

(35:49):
likelihood to be able to coursecorrect and get yourself
settled, without having to gothrough the full full on
experience of anxiety.

Angus (36:02):
Well, what I'm noticing here is that, once again, you're
doing a very good job of tryingto steer Alicia in a direction
where she can have, hopefullysome insight and some clarity
around the role of thought, andalso her state of mind. More

(36:23):
importantly. So I think thevalue in that is that she will
now hopefully start to considerwhat are some of the areas where
she gets caught up, she startsto recognize where she even
begins that process of gettingcaught up. And she starts to
hopefully recognize thatquicker. And so you're doing a

(36:46):
great job and trying tofamiliarize her with that idea
that there is an enormousbenefit to be garnered from
being able to recognize whereone state of mind is, and how it
can lead lead us into wreck andruin pretty quickly. If in a low
mood, we start throwing shots,you know that fire? So I like
the idea that that's somethingthat she would consider. And

(37:09):
it's it's Yeah, I think thatwould be a turning point for her
if she can really take that onboard.

Alicia (37:15):
Yeah, I'm really aware of how externally focused she
is, she's really not able toidentify very easily any of her
internal cues in terms of whather state of mind is and how
she's doing. She's very muchreferencing the things that
Mateo does or doesn't do. Andand that makes sense, because

(37:39):
she thinks that that's what'sresponsible for her behavior.
But I'm hoping here that I'mplanting some seeds and, and
pointing her very directly tohow she can become more attuned
to her internal experience andthe signals that her emotions
give her and actually see how totake better care of herself of

(38:01):
that as a result of that. Andthat, ultimately, this is for
her own well being and state ofmind that she pays attention to
these cues, rather than payingattention to what matea is doing
or not doing, when she starts tonotice that she's in that place
of overthinking or that she'sstarting to feel anxiety, when

(38:23):
she uses her emotions as a wayto give her that signal, then
that can give her pause and helpremind her to take care of
herself so that she puts theoxygen mask on herself first,
and is able to meet her ownneeds in that way. So that she's
not letting herself you know, goto the brink of a blow up. And

(38:47):
then it doesn't take probablyvery much for it to tip over
into some escalation at thatpoint. So I'm really hoping that
she's getting the care that Ihave about how she is doing and
all of this and that there's away for her not to be a victim
to potato, there's a way for herto take personal responsibility

(39:09):
for taking care of herself. Andthat's going to ultimately help
her to get a more stable ground.
And, you know, we want her todecide what to do about the
relationship. When she's onstable ground. I'm not saying
that she would need to stay withhim. But I want her to be able
to make that decision for theclearest place inside of herself
possible.

Angus (39:34):
Yeah, that's that's really fantastic. And then what
I like about this next segmentthat's coming up, it's almost
like you're helping Aliciaunwrap this care package of
understanding that's beginningto help her see that she's not
responsible for retailsuffering.

Rohini (39:59):
He says you have blowouts it also sounds like
he's saying things to.

Alicia (40:03):
Oh, yeah

Rohini (40:03):
So he has his own blow ups. It's not like he's not
having them as well.

Alicia (40:07):
It's just not like a screaming and...

Rohini (40:09):
Okay, so it's not as potentially high intensity, but
it's still something.

Alicia (40:14):
Yeah.

Rohini (40:15):
Okay. So, you have your sort of bandwidth of what
you can handle. And he has hisbandwidth of what he can handle.
And it sounds like there's goingto need to be adjustments on
both ends, right. So you don'twant as much of the, you know,

(40:36):
negativity coming your way feelslike, you know, I can't, you
know, it needs to decrease somein order for me to be okay. And
he's saying the same thing. Itsounds like when he says the
blow ups are too much, that hecan't handle as much of those
blobs from you. So there's youboth kind of asking each other

(40:56):
for some behavior modification,shall we say? Yeah, to make it
easier on each other? Now thatpart of it. To me, when there's
a goodwill and, and good feelingin the relationship, you guys
figure that out? You'll figureout how to not have so many blow
ups, and have it not scare himbasically figure out how to not

(41:19):
scare him. And he'll also withgoodwill, figure out how not to
hurt your feelings, not toperfect, right. So it's not like
you're never ever gonna have ablow up again. It's not he's
never gonna be mean again. Butdecrease it enough so that it's
more manageable and more of agood feeling rather than bad
feeling.

Alicia (41:38):
Yeah, I mean, that that is, you know, essentially what I
would love to get to.

Rohini (41:42):
Yeah. So the goodwill piece, then, is going to be key.
And it sounds like you've beendoing your best to give him
space. Yeah. But it's sort of atthe expense of you feeling like
you're walking on eggshells. Soit doesn't really increase

(42:05):
goodwill, because it's not evenlike you actually feel worse,
and you're trying to take careof him. But you're actually end
up feeling worse. So it doesn'tincrease goodwill, because
you're feeling worse.

Alicia (42:15):
Yeah. So it's also my interpretation that the blow ups
are like, the main cause it'slike, I also don't know cuz he's
not letting me in. Like, itcould be other stuff that I'm
doing it I wouldn't know. Right?

Rohini (42:27):
Well, at least let's just work with what we know. So
far. So that's what you know.
And then you get that bookcoming in? I mean, there's a big
there's a hint that something'sgoing on around that. I'm
curious, since he sort of pulledthe rug out and said, You know,
I don't think I don't I don'tknow if I want to be married to
you. Has this impacted the blowouts between the two of you at

(42:50):
all? Or is it been worse,better?

Alicia (42:55):
It's impacted them in a way that I keep a lot more
inside?

Rohini (43:03):
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. So would you say that?
You're kind of it's almost likeyou're on notice, basically. And
so you're having to try tobehave? feel like you're, you
know, yeah, having to behave acertain way or else you know,

(43:24):
that's it. So I'm wondering, Iguess what I'm thinking about is
because this pressure of walkingon eggshells, I'm thinking about
how, at least during this time,while you're here, how to take
that pressure off of you.

Alicia (43:38):
I think it would be for there to be an understanding if
I say something, don't take itcompletely to heart and put it
in the negative and comparingyourself to

Rohini (43:50):
So let's say he does that. Let's say you're just
yourself and he takes it thewrong way. Would it end if you
were able to not take thatpersonally? If it's like, oh,
yeah, this happens. He does itsometimes, It would that...

Alicia (44:04):
yes, but I feel like it hurts my feelings to think that
I hurt his.

Rohini (44:07):
So what if.. Okay, this is really important. What if
it's not your fault? If you hurthis feelings?

Alicia (44:14):
I still would feel guilt over hurting him.

Rohini (44:17):
But what if... see that guilt doesn't make sense if it's
not your fault. So let's talkabout feelings. So feelings we,
like we talked about earlier. Wefeel our thoughts, right. So
just like you have thoughts andyou feel the impact of your

(44:39):
thoughts, he has thoughts and hefeels the impact of his
thoughts. You saying somethingdoesn't hit him? He feels his
thinking. So you could be sayingsomething really lovely. But his
thinking is really negative. Andhe's feeling his thinking he's
not feeling what you're saying.
Are you saying that you wouldfeel guilty?

Alicia (44:59):
If I upset him? Yeah.

Rohini (45:01):
Even though it's his own thinking?

Alicia (45:03):
Yeah, because I would feel like I would end up either
being convinced that it's myfault.

Rohini (45:10):
But did he convince you?

Alicia (45:11):
Yeah.

Rohini (45:11):
Okay. So this is where I want you to kind of just get
really clear. It's not yourresponsibility, why he feels
ever, even if you behave badly,it's not your responsibility,
how he feels ever. So I want youto hear that in a way that it
kind of you get itexperientially, because the way

(45:35):
that you're feeling thispressure of walking on eggshells
is actually because of this morethan it is because of him
because of the guilt that you'refeeling. And if he can convince
you that you're responsible forhow he feels, well, it's
actually on you to see itclearly. So that he can convince
you of that. So you could be solet's say, Angus is screaming at

(45:59):
me. If I feel bad, that's on me.
That's not on him. I'm notcondoning that. But my feelings
are coming from what's going onhere. It's not coming from
what's happening there. I mightbe guy, he's having a really bad
day, he's freaking out. I mightbe Oh my God, I'm a worthless
human being like, that's gonnabe determined by what's going on
here. And it's not his fault.

(46:22):
how I feel. Yeah, it's on him todo his best to behave as best he
can. But it's not hisresponsibility, how I feel. So
for that, to get really clearinside of you, because the way
that it's set up is that he'stelling you you're responsible
for how he's feeling. And you'resaying, Oh, yes, I am.

Alicia (46:44):
Yeah.

Rohini (46:46):
And what I'm saying is Oh, no, you're not. Yeah. And
for you to see that, you'll havean immunity to whatever he
throws your way. So it's like,you know, when there, someone
throws you the hot potato islike, you catch it to burn. It's
like, not mine. Yeah. Not mine.
It's like, you're responsiblefor me to feel bad. Not mine.
Yeah. You know, you don't haveto catch that hot potato,

(47:09):
because it's not you. You 100%cannot be responsible for how
someone else feels? Because it'scoming from inside of them.
Yeah. So you being you, if hegets bothered by it, you can
course correct. what's what'shappening? Is that because
you're reacting to his takingthings negatively, you're not

(47:32):
able to kind of have perspectiveon how to course correct. But
you're kind of going way overhere. Yeah. When it's like, oh,
he's just having a bad day, youwould course correct, you know,
in a different way not to go allthe way over here and feel bad
and sad and guilty about it. Yousee what I'm saying? So what I

(47:52):
want you to experiment with, andthis is maybe going to take a
little undoing because you'vebeen walking on eggshells for a
while, but I want you toexperiment if you're willing,
with leaning into what feelsnatural to you, not what you're
meant to manage yourself to do.
So if that's but but in a in away that's respectful. So it's

(48:16):
like if you want to play reallylove music or whatever, I don't
know what it's gonna be. Butit's like, you'll check it out
with him like, but you followthe inclination first? Yeah, you
don't know. He doesn't wantthat. Oh, I shouldn't do that.
Like, because that's theoverthinking coming in. What I
want you to just kind of leaninto is that freedom, like when
you talk about like a littlegirl like to just lean into

(48:39):
that. That's you? That's youunfiltered? Yes. You know,

Alicia (48:43):
Talkative and they don't shut up because I'm like a
Chatty Cathy. But that's justlike me.

Rohini (48:47):
Yeah. And so you do that. And then you notice I Oh,
he wants quieter in the you ask,Do you need some quiet? But
yeah, you're talking too much.
Rather than, you know, makingyourself feel bad that you did
something right. It's okay. Yougo call a friend or something.
But you just but it's notwalking on eggshells to make
sure that he's okay. Because youare not responsible for him

(49:10):
being okay. You can't be Yeah.
And you're never going to beable to get that right. Because
you can't be responsible for himbe okay. If he's not okay,
that's on him. And even if he'snot okay, and he tells you it's
your fault, he's not okay. It'sstill on him. Now, I'm not
giving you carte blanche to justfreak out on it. I want to be

(49:31):
clear. Yeah. No, it's it's likeobviously for you. You don't
want that. You know, but it'snot got anything to do with him
being okay.

Alicia (49:45):
Yeah, I get, I mean, I can definitely see that.
What I'm addressing in this pastsegment is that the way that
Alicia is working so hard To notupset Matteo it's contributing
to the likelihood that she'sgoing to end up having one of

(50:07):
her blowouts. And she's notseeing that. She's going around
walking on eggshells trying tomanage her experience by
managing his experience becauseshe thinks, if she can manage to
not upset him, then she won't beupset. But it ultimately ends up
just giving her so muchpressure, and makes you know,

(50:27):
life much harder. Andultimately, I think ends up
building resentment, and thenthe blow ups naturally flow from
there. What do you think?

Angus (50:37):
I think, I think it's like, she's just jumped into a
swimming pool of feeling like akid thinking they can hold their
breath for an inordinate amountof times. And at some point,
she's gonna have to exhale andher exhaling in her world is to
have a blowout, and to probablyunleash a whole barrage of

(50:58):
vitriol on on in the materialsdirection.

Rohini (51:05):
One of the other ways that she puts that pressure on
herself too, is that she'scarrying that responsibility of
how he feels that she sees thatshe's responsible for how he
feels so that she has to get itright. And if she doesn't get it

(51:27):
right, then she's responsiblefor him feeling badly. Now, I
want to be clear, because thiscould be quite a controversial
point. That, from what we'resharing, and from the
understanding that we'repointing to is that our
experience comes from inside ofourselves. And so we experience

(51:47):
the thoughts that we'reidentifying with. Now, that
doesn't mean that we'recondoning someone behaving
badly. So that, as I said to herin that segment doesn't give her
cop blanche to do whatever shewants no matter what. But what
it actually does, when weunderstand that we each have our

(52:08):
own experience, that's areflection of the thoughts that
we're identifying within themoment that reflect the level of
mood that we're at. It takes thepressure off ourselves, we allow
ourselves to relax and beourselves. And it's so much
easier to be comfortable in arelationship this way, when
you're not responsible for howsomeone else is feeling. And

(52:31):
rather than that, creating worstbehavior, and actually that
letting go and realizing you'renot responsible, takes the
pressure off and actually bringsout the best in people rather
than the worst.

Angus (52:45):
Yeah, when I was listening to you interact with
her, it was kind of like, forme, it was almost like you're
this optician giving her allthese different lenses to try on
with all these different ways ofpointing to this understanding
and what you were trying toshare with her. And she and

(53:05):
you're kind of like saying,Yeah, do you see now do you see
it now. And at some point inthis whole exchange, I felt like
she did really see something. Itwasn't, you know, it wasn't
like, we would be playing choirsof angels, and that being
rapturous applause but I thinkthat you really got it to a

(53:27):
point where she did really tunein and see something new.

Rohini (53:31):
I think she's starting to feel the pressure, leave her
which is really good. So we'llsee how it goes in the next
section.

Alicia (53:47):
For you to see that he's not fragile. He may behave
fragile, but that's amisunderstanding going on within
him. And what will be helpfulfor his misunderstanding is for
you to not buy into it. And foryou to not feel guilty for how

(54:08):
he feels. Because it's gotnothing to do with you. And so
for you being you, and you know,sometimes you're gonna step on
his toes, and sometimes you'renot like you just being you
innocently living your lifebeing how you are. You're not
responsible for how he feels.
Yeah. So how does that land foryou?

(54:33):
Um, it kind of, again, like eyeopening, because I've definitely
taken on like feelings andblaming somebody for it as well.

Rohini (54:45):
Right? Yeah, it can go the other way too.

Alicia (54:46):
Yeah. So just like putting myself in his shoes in
that sense. Like, I've beenlike, well, you made me upset,
right? Yeah. And it's, I guessit's a matter of manipulating
your brain to be in like, you'rejust upset to be upset like
that. But

Rohini (55:00):
Yeah, it's like, you won't have to manipulate your
brain, if you see the truth init. So that's what I want you to
kind of really like, kind offeel into what's really true,
like, Where does your experiencereally come from? Like, if you
really kind of feel into that islike, Is it really possible for

(55:21):
somebody to make you feel acertain way? Or is it that
you're going to feel whateverthoughts you're having in the
moment, and the way that you cankind of check this out, as you
will see that there's probablytimes we're in a really good
mood. And he behaves like adick. And you're like, oh,
whatever, not a big deal. Andthen there's other times where

(55:42):
you're not in a good mood, andhe maybe behaves kind of okay,
and you have a bad experience.
So that tells you like, well,then it can't really be coming
from outside of you cannot,right, because it changes based
on what your state of mind is,right. So the more you use, like
this, why this is so powerful,is it's so liberating, because

(56:03):
then we can never be the victimto our circumstance, or to
another person, because all weare if we're a victim to
anything is our own state ofmind. And we're not really a
victim to our state of mind,because it naturally clears
itself up. So we're always goingto come out of it. But being
able to see that that's all thatwe're ever at the effect of it

(56:27):
takes the pressure off therelationship, that takes the
pressure off of you having to beperfect for him. And it also
will wake you up when you startto feel like a victim to him and
realize like, Wait a second, I'mnot a victim. I'm just caught up
in my own thinking, and you cantake care of yourself. Even if
you know you can't control him,you can still take care of

(56:50):
yourself. So it's win win bothways. So you take the pressure
off of yourself and beingresponsible for making him
happy, which you can't do, andgetting it right and not
upsetting him. And, and thetrouble with that setup is that
it's going to be more likely toget you to blow up than less
likely. Like that's putting somuch pressure on you that

(57:12):
eventually you're going to blow.
Right. So that's not working.
And it's when when the otherway, because now you're also not
a victim to his low moods. Ifyou're having a hard time, if
you're feeling like you'reresponsible for how I'm feeling,
you can kind of wake up to waita second, this is just my low
mood. You know, I'm going to gowatch TV or I'm going to go work

(57:35):
out or I'm going to you know,I'm going to play that game that
you're talking about, like, Iknow how to be with myself when
I'm going to low mood not to getyourself out of the mood even
just to not have that low moodimpacts you so much. Right?
Because you will naturally comeout of it. That just happens. So
does this feel like a differentway of relating?

Alicia (57:57):
It definitely does, like I definitely put myself as
a victim to be like, Oh my god,I just made him upset this that.
And it's like, well, no oneshould have that much power
ever.

Rohini (58:08):
And it just doesn't work that way. Like it just
doesn't work that way. So themore that you can kind of just
see like, Yeah, he has hismoods, he gets stirred up, he
gets into low mood when he getsinto low mood. He sometimes
blames me for how I feel how hefeels. But it's like, I'm not
taking the hot potato. Yeah,maybe he's throwing it out,

(58:30):
you'd be like, No, thanks.

Alicia (58:32):
It's like the tennis machine just keeps

Rohini (58:35):
Whatever. And so maybe you know, you have to go sit in
the other room, if he's lobbingthem at you. But you're just
like, it's not my but the mostimportant thing is that it
doesn't land inside of you sothat you feel guilty. Yeah,
because that's where it startscreating maladaptive coping
strategies inside of you.
Because now you're feelingguilty scenario trying to, you

(58:56):
know, mold yourself. Exactly,exactly. And that doesn't make
any sense whatsoever. So if youknow, hey, all I'm dealing with
here is his little mood. Yeah,no need for me to get into one
over it. Or if you take itpersonally, well, now I'm
dealing with my low mood. It'snot his fault. Let me just take
care of myself. I'll come out ofit, you'll have so much more

(59:17):
resilience. Yeah, you'll alsohave so much more creativity
about how to deal with his lowmood.

Alicia (59:24):
Yeah.
I think that if you're nottaking this personally as much,
and that you're not feelingguilty as much, even if and I'm
not saying I want him to stay ina low mood, but you will have so
much more resiliency in the faceof his low mood, where it
doesn't negatively impact yourlife in the same way.
Yeah, I definitely agree withthat.

Rohini (59:46):
Can you see that?

Alicia (59:47):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, yeah, I just, I've
definitely given I guess, inthat sense too much power.
Yeah. It's like It's amisunderstanding. Like, somehow
you You have to get it right sothat he's okay.
Yeah. And then I feel like I hadto, like justify what I said and
like sell it. Yeah. And it'slike, that's not fun to either

(01:00:09):
like.
Yeah, so this is like, Well, mybad.
I mean, a lot of words, I don'twant it to be because I'm
protecting myself or defendingmyself to be like, some sort of
shut up.
But the if you're not feelingguilty, you don't need to do
that. Like, oh, you took it thatway. Yeah. And then, and it's
not I don't want this to comeacross as like You're heartless

(01:00:32):
because it's not that it's likenot feeling guilty and
responsible actually has to staymore open hearted rather than
last. Because the the guilt andthe pressure on yourself it kind
of has you go inward and haveless available to give. And that
takes its toll on the goodwillthat's there.

(01:00:54):
Yeah. Yeah, because itdefinitely like shuts me down at
times.
Yeah, well, why wouldn't thatright? It's like, you can't feel
it. You can't get it right.
Yeah. And then I like turned toa friend and just cry it out.
Yes. Like, that's not funnyeither.

Rohini (01:01:09):
No and the more you can see, like, Oh, that's you taking
it personally. That's youfeeling guilty. That's you
thinking that somehow you couldbe responsible for how he feels.
doesn't work that way. Justlike, you know, if I have a pen,
and I drop it on me, let it go.
It's gonna fall to the ground.
That's how gravity works. Itnever goes up. Yeah, it is not

(01:01:31):
gonna go sideways. It's alwaysgonna go. And ways we feel our
own thoughts. That's just how itworks can't work any other way.
We cannot be responsible forsomeone else. How they feel our
own conscience will have usbehaved in the best way that we
can. Not because we'reresponsible for someone else's
feelings, but because we want tobring out the best in ourselves.

Alicia (01:01:57):
I definitely think so.
It's like, for me just, I thinkletting go the guilt would be
like, tremendous.
Yes. That That, to me, seemsreally huge. So for you, what do
you see about letting go theguilt? Like do you see what I'm
saying? Like, does it resonateas true to you that you're not
responsible for how he feels?

(01:02:17):
Now? Yeah,

Rohini (01:02:18):
it does resonate is true.

Alicia (01:02:20):
Yeah. He can, I guess, we can all perceive the sky is
blue and 20 different ways.
Where he can believe you'reresponsible for how he feels.
That could be his experience.
But that's not the truth. Justlike, you know, someone can say,
pence float up when you let goof them. But I'm like, Oh, they
go down. Yeah, right. So he canbelieve whatever he wants. But I

(01:02:43):
want you to know what's true.
Now, obviously, Angus is goingto be telling him all the same
kinds of things that we'retalking about. But what I care
about is that you see how itworks. You see where your
experience comes from. And yousee where his experience comes
from?
I think that I think that likereally resonates, though, is to
understand which this has neverclicked before is that he may

(01:03:06):
believe something. But that isnot the truth. That's for me to
find peace within that.

Rohini (01:03:12):
That's right, that it's okay for him to believe that.
Yeah, because that's how he seesit. You don't have to agree with
it, you also don't have to buyinto it. And he'll eventually
figure it out. But I thought wasreally great here is that
without me having to sayanything, that Alicia flipped

(01:03:32):
things around and realize thatwell, if she's not responsible
for how Mateo feels, then healso can't be responsible for
how she feels. And so shestarted to put those dots
together for herself that theway that she's been blaming him
for how she's feeling that itcan't work that way. And that,

(01:03:54):
ultimately, they're both betteroff. Understanding. That
experience comes from within.
And so as much as she in thepast is wanting to blame Mateo
for how badly she's feeling. Ithink she can actually feel some
relief and saying that itdoesn't work that way.

Angus (01:04:12):
Well, I think you're, you're guilty of underselling
yourself in the sense that youfeel like you didn't have to say
anything. I think that this isattach a textbook teaching piece
for me, in terms of how you wereguiding her it was almost I was
thinking at the time as I waslistening to this, that it's
almost like you are thesalesperson, and Alicia is your

(01:04:36):
client. And you're setting yourpoint of view, you're basically
selling understanding. And itjust feels like it would be the
point in a sales experience. Ifyou were to observe it as an
independent observer, where youcould see Yeah, the sales person
has really nailed it now. Theykind of won them over and the

(01:04:58):
client in the way that they'reresponding, you've got to that,
that point where you can now gointo the office and draw up a
contract. or, or, or execute,you know, thought out the
financing. She was basically,you know, she's now really
bought into what you're selling,which I think is really

(01:05:18):
beautiful. And I think you do anawesome job of getting to that
point.

Rohini (01:05:23):
Thank you

Angus (01:05:24):
You should come salesperson says.

Rohini (01:05:26):
I'm thinking that I don't think I'm selling
anything. I think that I'm justpointing her to see how it
actually works. And I guess Iunderstand your metaphor, but
it's really quite simple whenyou see how it works.

Angus (01:05:40):
Yeah. Really fantastic job.

Rohini (01:05:44):
Thank you.
All right, let's listen to thefinal section.

Alicia (01:05:55):
Beliefs are people's beliefs. But I know the truth.

Rohini (01:05:57):
Yeah, you don't need to take it personally.

Alicia (01:05:59):
Right.

Rohini (01:06:00):
You know, that's so what? What does it even matter?
Then people can have whateverlabels they want it like
everybody has label, right?
Yeah. It's like, it doesn'treally, it doesn't mean anything
anymore. doesn't mean anythingabout you doesn't mean anything
to you. It's like it's it's youyou're Teflon in that way.
Because like, Well, so whatsomeone calls you a pink
elephant. Okay, whatever. Likeit doesn't mean anything to you.

(01:06:22):
Five. Yeah. So it's like, yeah,it only it only stings. If we
take it on? Yeah. Right. And youdon't need to take that on. And
you absolutely do not need totake on his well being. And I
don't think he wants you to takeit on. No, I don't think he
wants to take it on. I thinkthat he's confused about where

(01:06:46):
his experience comes from. Butthere's so much more relief when
it's 100%. Our ownresponsibility. Not that we can
control it. It is coming 100%within us.

Alicia (01:07:01):
Yeah.
Yeah, no victims anywhere, then.
It would be nice.
So for you, to the degree thatyou feel like you're walking on
eggshells. That's the degreethat you're forgetting that
you're not responsible for hisexperience. Completely. Right.
So that's how you measure it.
Like if you so it's not hisfault that you're walking on

(01:07:23):
eggshells anymore. It's youforgetting that you're not
responsible for his experience.
Yeah. Right. So that's gonna beyour measurement, the more at
ease, relaxed and just yourself.
Young Yo, like, that's whatyou're looking for. And the more
I Oh, really, oh, I'm thinkingI'm responsible for him. And it

(01:07:46):
doesn't mean that you can evenchange it in that moment. But at
least you'll know what's goingon, if you like, it just won't
engage understanding that,

Rohini (01:07:56):
Like I would be so much easier, not engaged,
understanding that, and theresentment goes way down,
because now it's not his faultanymore, that you're walking on
eggshells. It's like, Oh, I'mthinking I'm responsible for how
he feels. You're doing it toyourself. You don't need to do
that yourself.

Alicia (01:08:12):
It's because I'm being told like your fault. Your
fault, your fault. you're doingit.

Rohini (01:08:15):
Yeah, yeah. But it's like, I want you to be so clear
about this. Like, this is likeme saying, your skin is purple.
Yeah, your skin is profitable.
Like it doesn't matter how manytimes I say that seems like,
whatever, lady, you're crazy.
You're like, so it's like itwouldn't land. . So I want you
to see the so clearly that hecan say to you, you're
responsible for how I feel. Andyou're like, that's your

(01:08:38):
experience. But it's not mine.
Like you don't take it on. Yeah,like it doesn't go. Oh, man, I
feel guilty. Right. Oh, I messedup. How, I screwed up.! Like,
when you're clear, you'll belike, he's stirred up and he
thinks it's my fault. Now youmay have let's say you behaved
badly, right? You'll have yourown conscience about, oh, I

(01:09:01):
could do that better next time.
So that's separate. It's not youbeing responsible for how he
feels. Right? You're going to beon your own learning curve of
how to behave better, and youknow, figure things out. But it
still doesn't make youresponsible for how he feels.

Alicia (01:09:21):
Like, that's like a revelation.
Yeah, that I mean, that's why Ikeep saying, because I just want
it to just land and, and for youto just see how you do that to
you. Yeah, you make yourselfresponsible. And even if he
tells you, you're responsible,it doesn't make you responsible.

(01:09:41):
It's on you if you take it on.
Yeah.
And the more clearly see thisand I don't see it clearly 100%
of the time. So it's not likethere's a perfection here. This
is an ongoing learning curve forme to write, but the more
clearly you see it, the moreinner freedom you have and that
brings out the best in you Yeah,it doesn't bring out the worst

(01:10:01):
that you brings out the best inyou, doesn't mean you're gonna
be perfect, but he's gonna getthe best of you. And that is
good for the relationship, thebest of you. Right?
Yeah. And like, it's notcomfortable to be on eggshells.
It's not comfortable. Like...

Rohini (01:10:15):
No, that's not the worst of you.

Alicia (01:10:17):
Yeah. And that's why when I say like, the 90%, that
I'm happy, it's like, there's afew little percent that I'm
happy at home. But like,throughout the day, like, as
crazy and chaotic as my life is,yeah, like, I do find the
happiness. And I don't reallytake on a lot of like, you know,
people perceiving me in a poorway. And maybe that's also

(01:10:38):
because, you know, I've createdmyself to be such a strong
individual as well, that I'mjust like, Well, I do everything
great. And I'm, you know, allthat stuff. I'm not that great.
But yeah, but I feel like I'veboth like boasted my own self to
not fall into that need a day,but for whatever reason, I fall
into it in my relationship.

Rohini (01:10:56):
Yeah. So that's kind of the blind spot where it's
looking like you areresponsible. Yeah. And so it's
like, now you can be like, oh,here to not responsible. And,
and while you're here, I wouldsay like this whole Limbo state,
I would say, like, you'retogether. You're here together,
you're here working on yourrelationship together. Just be

(01:11:16):
in whether he's in or not.
You're in that way. It's likehe's clearly here. He's not
leaving, at least at this point.
So now, it's in so that you'renot like, in that thought
process, too, is like, okay,we're in. Let's take it one day
at a time right time right now.

Alicia (01:11:35):
And that's definitely my downfall is like, I'll be like,
in the moment, then I'm like,wait a second leave now. Or
like, yeah,

Rohini (01:11:41):
Yeah. If you go down that rabbit hole. See how that's
basically you telling yourself ascary story? Yeah. Right. So
it's like, No, I'm not going totell myself a scary story I'm
going to enjoy here. I'm goingto enjoy now. And I'm going to
enjoy what is. And if he canenjoy now what is, that's not
your problem and it's not yourfault. You can do that for you.

Alicia (01:12:04):
Totally, I think that I do have an issue with living in
the moment a lot. Because Ilive in the future.

Rohini (01:12:10):
And so for your job you have to write. So it's like you
have a really great skill set.
But it's not good for yourrelationship. And it's not good
for you on an emotional levelfor anything emotional. So
you're going to be learning howto kind of be here for emotional
things for relationship thingsand use that skill set for, you

(01:12:31):
know, planning work or planningyour vacations or whatever you
need to plan and do things withthat to get much better. Like
here and now this is what is astay here.

Alicia (01:12:46):
Yeah. And believe it because, like, I shouldn't be so
insecure right now. I should...

Rohini (01:12:53):
Well, the insecurities when you go down that rabbit
hole, right? And as soon as younotice yourself going there be
like, Whoa, that's not good foryou. Just kind of bring yourself
back. And you'll like when yousaid, you know, you get you
realize, Oh, I'm overthinking.
It's the same thing. You'relike, Oh, I'm going down the
insecure rabbit hole. I'm justgonna bring myself back because
it's not good for you. Itdoesn't help. The relation is

(01:13:13):
not figuring anything out is isscaring yourself in the moment.
Yeah. It's like having a littlekid and you're telling them a
bedtime story. You're telling areally scary story. Let's not
good for that little kid to goto sleep and feel safe and feel
secure. So you don't want to dothat to yourself. It's not going
to help you to feel better inthe moment.

Alicia (01:13:33):
Yeah, no...

Rohini (01:13:35):
But if you're doing it, there's something compelling you
to do it. So you have to realizelike, wait, this doesn't make
any sense. Right? There'snothing good that comes from
that. So you just bring yourselfback into the here and now.

Alicia (01:13:46):
Yeah, yeah, definitely need to catch myself doing that.
When I catch myselfoverthinking.
Well, you'll notice yourfeelings that when we talked
about that anxiety, or you'lljust get more recognition of
when you're getting elevated,and you'll catch yourself sooner
because the only way you'regetting elevated, it's got
nothing to do with him is whenyou're engaging with your

(01:14:08):
thoughts in a certain way.
Yeah, I mean, like, justreferencing, like, yesterday, I
guess, like, my expectation orlike, whatever I was thinking
was like we'd leave at a certaintime, but didn't express that
plan, either. But then justputting too much like allowing
my thoughts to get me upset whenthere really wasn't like a set

(01:14:30):
plan...

Rohini (01:14:31):
Right, that it was not clear. you know, there's an
assumption maybe, it wasn'tclear. Yeah. And so that's you
getting on board with all thatthinking. Right. And that's what
you were feeling. And then whenhe comes home, we like, Yeah,
right. And it's like, oh, butthat's what you've been going
down. . And then he's like, Whatdoes hit me?

Alicia (01:14:53):
Totally. And I think like a lot of it would kind of
like came about was like Okay,let's work early. So I could
take the dog and do all this.
And be responsible then I justfelt like it wasn't
reciprocating the sense ofresponsibility. But it's

Rohini (01:15:05):
Yeah, but see, those are the practical things, right?
But where you go in your headand the emotions go up, it's
like those practical things getfree like next time like, Oh,
well, maybe next time, you couldlet you work those out from
rightful place, right. But whenyou go down that road of, you
know, frustration, anger,disappointment, like whatever

(01:15:25):
that is, and then discharge it.
It doesn't help any kind ofresolution. There's no learning
there for either one of you inthe relationship. And then the
goodwill just goes even moredown. Yeah. So as to seeing
like, Oh, that's that you get onboard with that thinking. And
then it gets so intense, andthen you let it out. Yeah, but

(01:15:45):
this and the reason you let itout is because the suffering
gets to a certain level that youneed to let it out. But what I
want you to see as the sufferingonly gets to a certain level,
because you've gone down thatroad of thinking, it's not his
fault. Even if he was two hourslate, and didn't call you. I'm
going to still say he's notresponsible for how you feel.
I'm not saying that's kind of athing as thoughtful, but he's

(01:16:07):
still not responsible for howyou feel. I can see that. Do you
see the difference?I'm notcondoning bad behavior. Right.
But also making it clear thatyour, your internal experience
comes from inside of you. Andthat separation gives you so
much more peace.

Alicia (01:16:30):
And also the, I guess the piece of it is also just
recognizing, okay, well, he wasinsensitive, and this and that,
but like, I don't have to, Idon't have to take it further.
Right, you can deal with that.
When you're not in a sped upstate. Like let's say you're
going into a sped up state, youcan't help yourself. If you at
least know like, oh, but this iscoming from inside of me, then

(01:16:52):
you'll know to write it out. Andthen maybe in the next day,
like, you know, didn't reallyfeel good when you didn't call
me when you're two hours late,you know, wondering, you know,
what we could do differentlythan maybes and everybody has a
reason that logic, say, Oh, youknow, my phone was dead. And I
wanted to get back as quickly aspossible. And, you know, so I
didn't want to stay, you know,who knows what the logic is

(01:17:13):
going to be. But when you seethe logic, like, okay, I could
see that makes sense for you.
But maybe we could do it thisway, next time, something like
that. Like, that's just you cometogether and you figure it out.
Whereas the other way, nothinggets figured out. And there's
just resentment built up on bothsides. And even just on one
side, you both feel bad.
Yeah, like I get angry that youpush me to that point.

Rohini (01:17:36):
Yeah. So he can't push you to that point.
Nobody likes being a victim.

Alicia (01:17:49):
No, yeah. I mean, yeah, he can't really push me a point,
I can only

Rohini (01:17:57):
You do it to yourself.
You do it to yourselfinnocently. But it's begin to
become more clear that you'redoing it to yourself now. So
you're not going to like you'renot going to do it. When you
realize you're doing it toyourself. Everybody's that's the
learning. Oh, my God, like, whywould I do this to myself? So
the more you see it, the lessyou do it, the better you get.
And the more stable you feel.

(01:18:20):
Like it's really liberating.

Alicia (01:18:22):
Yeah, I mean, just even just think about like, yesterday
had I just been like, we didn'tmake a plan, we set up the work,
whatever that means, like, notget upset over Valentine's Day,
because he didn't feel somethingand then just

Rohini (01:18:35):
He was, he was thinking that it wasn't, wasn't right to
do it. You know, his logic wasthat it wasn't based on where
you're at not the right thing todo.
And I could have just sat thereeating chocolate, I could have
just relaxed and then maybetoday even express, like, Hey, I
mean, my understanding of workending is around five by 30. And

(01:18:56):
you're not coming late leavingoffice till seven without
communicating like, is somethingthat's bothersome like we could
have?
Yeah, like, if you're super ifyou're neutral. You can say that
and see, like, you know, wouldCould you just let me know?
Yeah, like, you know, you like,it's not even finding the right
words. It's where you're comingfrom, like, when you're really

(01:19:16):
neutral. You can have thoseconversations, you've got
nothing on it, you're there's nocredit, like neutral means
there's no critical edge. It'sjust like, Hey, this is what
happened for me. I'm thinkingthis might be better. Do you
think that's a good idea? Like Idon't know if you realize that
but whatever. But it's thatneutrality that allows you to
figure out the logistics soeasily. So easily. But any lack

(01:19:41):
of neutrality? Off to the races.
But the lack of neutrality comesfrom within, it's not from the
other person,

Alicia (01:19:49):
Right. And sort of like even when I am giving those
feelings like thoughts in life,just to not maybe communicate
with them because I'm just anemotional state.

Rohini (01:19:59):
Yeah, because you can't trust what you're going to say.
And you're not seeing thingsclearly. And you're going to be
able to work it out so muchbetter and more easily when
you're neutral. And that you,you don't need to see what
happens is when we get upsetwhen humans get upset, it hurts.
And so we want to feel better.
So we want to release thepressure. But unfortunately, the

(01:20:21):
way that we release the pressuremakes things worse. So the way
that when we understand whereexperience is coming from, we
understand the way to releasethe pressure is to get out of
our head. And as soon as we'reout of our head, and our mind is
settled, there's no morepressure anymore. And there's
also no you know, casualtieseither. So you get to see that,

(01:20:42):
oh, I get to release thepressure. And that's on your
terms. It's not on his terms.
You don't have to wait for himto be anything. You get to
release the pressure like that.
Yeah. And so your life getseasier, nicer, lighter, happier,
independent of anything going onwith him.

Alicia (01:21:06):
Yeah

Rohini (01:21:07):
Sounds good?

Alicia (01:21:08):
Sounds like a great idea.
So you know, just while you'rehere, your practice is to be
yourself. And to notice when youbecause this sounds a little bit
habitual now to notice whenyou're forgetting that you're
not responsible for hisfeelings, so just kind of be on
that learning curve. And then wecan check in about that tomorrow
to see how it goes.

(01:21:29):
Yeah, yeah, just be one of thosethings that you have to remind
myself,

Rohini (01:21:32):
You just notice you didn't because when you're when
you get eyes for it, you'llstart to realize, Oh, I'm
walking on eggshells. You wakeup to it again, like, oh, but
that's on me. But yeah, sothat's the learning curve. You
see how that goes?

Alicia (01:21:43):
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Angus (01:21:47):
Well, I think there may have been one or two choirs of
angels moments in there. Icertainly feel like you could
have said at some point, hereare the keys to your shiny new
vehicle, madam.

Rohini (01:22:03):
What kind of car is it?

Angus (01:22:05):
I don't know. Definitely a luxury vehicle, potentially a
luxury vehicle? Certainly, interms of what she's been used to
thus far, it will feel like abunch of luxury vehicle.

Rohini (01:22:15):
I was gonna say, does that count as a technical
knockout?

Angus (01:22:19):
Oh! I know. I've, I'm mi ing my metaphors terribly. No
. I would say that's definitey a technical knock out. For s
re.

Rohini (01:22:28):
Don't get me confused.
I don't know the differencebetween a knockout.

Angus (01:22:31):
Knock downs, we don't have to get into that that was a
knockout. Yeah. Your boxing armwould be held aloft as champion.

Rohini (01:22:40):
But I was very pleased with how much she heard in this
session. And it really felt likeit took the pressure off of her,
and that she felt more empoweredas a result of what we're
talking about. And that shecould see that she didn't have
to wait for Matteo to feelbetter for her to feel better,
and that she didn't have tocarry the weight and

(01:23:02):
responsibility of how he feelson her shoulders. And so next
week, we'll hear from Mateo.
hank you so much for listeningo rewilding love. If you
njoyed this podcast, please lets know by subscribing on
Tunes. And we would love forou to leave a review there.

Angus (01:23:27):
iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need
help with their relationships.

Rohini (01:23:33):
If you would like to learn more about our work and
our online Rewilding Community,please visit our website www.th
rewilders.o

Angus (01:23:41):
Thanks for listening.
Join us next week.