EP7: An Insight About Wellbeing

Mateo experiences a dramatic shift in perspective. By exploring some of his more irrational thoughts about Alicia, he begins to see how the discord in their relationship is a "monster of his own making." Low moods look for something (or someone) they can hang themselves on. But as soon as we start to blame someone else for our feelings, we disempower ourselves and become the victim to the very thing (or person) we're blaming.

We find out Mateo wants this relationship to work, and he played the divorce card out of fear of getting hurt, not a desire for the relationship to end. Unsigned divorce papers enable him to remain in the relationship, with one foot out the door. Angus points out that not only does that take a great deal of energy, but that also there's no way for them to explore whether to remain in the relationship if Mateo isn't fully in it. 

Mateo wants to know how he can practice this understanding in real-time and Angus explains he needs to have his own insight about what will work best for him. Mateo sees that he needs to show up to the relationship without such a busy mind -- allowing himself to experience Alicia with a fresh outlook. But is Mateo too late? 

This episode explores the following:

• It’s easier to be all-in in a relationship than to have one foot out the door -- it takes a great deal of energy to live in limbo.
• It only takes one person to get this understanding for there to be a shift in the relationship.
• Not taking each other's flare-ups personally leads to more goodwill.
• When we’re in a low mood it is easy to look outside of ourselves to try and find the cause of that low mood. That is why we tend to blame those who are nearest and dearest to us.
• Learned conditioning isn’t who we are.
• Trust your heart, that’s where the gold is.

Show notes
Paint yourself into a corner: to create a predicament or unpleasant situation for oneself whereby there are no or very few favorable solutions or outcomes.

Pavlovian response: refers to the physician, Ivan Pavlov, who conducted experiments that demonstrated the conditioned response, or the theory of classical conditioning. 

Napa Valley: beautiful wine country in California, or a really annoying reference your partner makes.

Podcast music

Rewilding Love features the music of RhythmPharm with Los Angeles based Master drummer, multi-instrumentalist, and composer Greg Ellis, born and raised in the Bay Area. Episode 7 includes selections from: Violet/Balance; Blue/Calm; Orange/Nourishment; Yellow/Clarity.

Feedback: [e-mail]

Angus & Rohini Ross are “The Rewilders.” They love working with couples and helping them to reduce conflict and discord in their relationships. They co-facilitate individualized couples' intensives that rewild relationships back to their natural state of love. Rohini is the author of the ebook Marriage, and they are co-founders of The 29-Day Rewilding Experience and The Rewilding Community. You can also follow Angus and Rohini Ross on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. To learn more about their work visit: TheRewilders.org.

Episode Transcript

Angus (00:02):
Welcome to rewilding love. This season is with a
couple on the brink of divorce.

Rohini (00:10):
This is Episode Seven Mateos insight around his bias.

Mateo (00:16):
I may have just made the biggest mistake of my life.

Alicia (00:19):
I don't understand where things went wrong. In any given
moment. His vibe just changes.
It's like boom like you hate meall of a sudden.

Angus (00:28):
Right at a funfair, we go off and down. We are not moving
and we love each other. We gointo low mood, we hate each
other.

Mateo (00:34):
See, for the most part, I'm Pirates of the Caribbean
when there's only one drop inone rise. Okay, everything else
is pretty flat in my life,right? hers. It's corkscrewing.
It's, it jumps to tracksometimes like it does crazy
shit.

Alicia (00:48):
I'm not this monster.

Rohini (00:50):
We want her to decide what to do about the
relationship. When she's onstable ground. I'm not saying
that she would need to stay withhim.

Mateo (00:59):
She just walked in the house and everything was cool
and chill. Everything was cooland like borderline psychotic.

Angus (01:04):
What if we could somehow find a way to make you poke
proof?

Mateo (01:08):
Just rather not get poked

Angus (01:09):
the emotion that came up yesterday. That was really hard,
though. That's who you are.
That's your innate naturalstate. That's how you want to
connect with this. Well, that'sthe sweet spot. The rest is just
stuff we make up.

Mateo (01:23):
That was good. So deep shit. Yeah.

Angus (01:31):
You are listening to Rewilding Love with me. Angus
Ross,

Rohini (01:36):
and me Rohini Ross

Angus (01:37):
Rewilding Love is a podcast about relationships.

Rohini (01:41):
We believe that love never disappears completely in
relationships. It can always berewilded, listen in as we guide
a real couple back to theirnatural state of love.

Angus (01:52):
Relax and enjoy the show.

Rohini (02:04):
I feel badly now that I said that you pulled the short
straw with Mateo. Because inthis session, he really let go
of his defensiveness and openedup and saw some really great
things.

Angus (02:17):
Yeah, no, I I have I'm so proud of him. I'm so impressed
with how he became so open tothis whole experience and, and
became really quite vulnerable.
So yeah, yeah. You. You spoke ata turn

Rohini (02:35):
I did.

Angus (02:41):
One thing that was occurred to me this morning when
I was thinking about you wasthat because you know, you and
it's kind of cool that you bringup the awkward awkwardness
issue? Because it's kind of Iwonder, and I were just curious
about this, I'm not suggestingthis is what's going through
your mind with deference toseparate realities, you know,
you might have a completelydifferent feel for what's going

(03:04):
on. But there's that sort of Ikind of got a sense yesterday
that there's a sort of, there'sa sort of self free, in even a
sense self created limbo thatyou've created in this
relationship in the sense that Iknow that you talked about that,
you know, you have the divorcepapers, what was it September?

Mateo (03:25):
Yeah.

Angus (03:25):
And they those are kind of like being in the background.
They're on the back burner in away. So that, for me was a kind
of a bit of a red flag for therelationship just because I like
wow, I wonder what it would belike to be the other party who's
kind of like having to sort ofwalk around on eggshells. That
would just be my spin on that.
Yeah. That's what I would feellike if I felt like Rohini had

(03:46):
like, had divorce papers andmore just like, Well, you know,
we'll keep things as they are,but we'll see how they go. Yeah,
I would really not like, thatwould be really awful for me.

Mateo (04:01):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, totally screwed the pitch in
that. But at the same time, it'skind of like, like I said,
poking the Buddha, right? So theBuddha is going to be super calm
and neutral. But after a whileyou keep poking the guy. He
might tell you blunt honesty,and that's what occurred in our
relationship is, you know, Ikept on getting poked, kept

(04:21):
getting poked, and it's justlike, you know, I'm here in this
in this straight jacket, notfeeling well. Right and feeling
lonely, and then out ofoutbursts to get out of the
shackles or whatever you want tocall it. It was this is how I
feel. Yeah, I'm releasingmyself. This is how I feel. I'm
hoping that you can interpretthis information, the way that I

(04:43):
hope, which is probably notreasonable to be like, someone
tells you like, Oh, I want adivorce and you're like, Oh my
god, I'm totally gonna be, youknow, this dream person for
them. I mean, that was probablywhat my hope was the best case
scenario, but that's not reallife. So yeah, I know that place
a larger burden on therelationship.

Angus (05:02):
Yeah, with a relationship, you're kind of
you're all in until you're outin the sense, because that's
kind of like, okay, you couldbring up the idea of divorce and
you could have papers. Andthat's, that's very much in
pretty much concrete terms. Butit's kind of like even now,
within that situation, you couldbe all in until you're out. So

(05:23):
when I say all in, you could beat least all in with the same
level of vulnerability or with alevel of vulnerability that
wants to sort of like there's,you know, you've actually
yourself told me that youweren't, you know, you, it will
be amazing if we could figurethis out. And you kind of want
that as a part of you that wantsit. I don't know how much of you

(05:44):
wants that. But I get a sense,there is a part of you that
wants that. So if you do that,then what have you got to lose
them by being all in terms ofhow you show up and how you
present yourself, but in a trueand honest and vulnerable way.
In terms of you being all in andyou show up, and you're totally
your honest, vulnerable selfwithout the defenses up, and the

(06:08):
defenses are all about, youknow, I don't want to get hurt
in this scenario, by chick you.
Based on I spent a long timeyesterday trying to point out
this idea that you can't be hurtby only you can hurt yourself,
it's only your thinking that'shurting yourself in this
situation. And no, that's like areally major thing to get a hold
of, because I went through itall the people I know have got

(06:28):
into this understanding. Theyhave to get through that that
big problem of flipping thataround. She can't hurt you. Only
you can create your own submental suffering. So that's the
thing to get flipped around. Butif you can show up, and just be
yourself without the defenses,because that must be quite

(06:50):
exhausting to have to keep thosedefenses up all the time. I
imagine. Yeah. It must be aburden to carry

Mateo (06:58):
for both of us.

Angus (06:59):
Both of you. Definitely.
Right. So what, and you mightnot stay together, you might get
divorced. But what have you gotto lose in the sense of like,
yeah, I can show up and I'm justgoing to be my vulnerable self.
I'm going to put all my chips onthe table. This is how who I am.
And this is how I'm showing up.
If that's not gonna work, andthat's not gonna work where I'm
being my authentic, vulnerableself. And yeah, then then maybe

(07:23):
then you're not writing to eachother.

Rohini (07:29):
So you know, when you're listening to podcasts?

Angus (07:32):
Yes.

Rohini (07:36):
Too bad you're not on video right now. So when you're
listening to podcasts, and theysay, we'll be back in a moment.

Angus (07:45):
I do know that.

Rohini (07:47):
You usually play some kind of ad.

Angus (07:49):
Yes.

Rohini (07:50):
Well, I think we should take a pause from Alicia and
Mateo for a moment. Why? BecauseI think we should talk a little
bit about

Angus (07:57):
Have I done something wrong?

Rohini (07:59):
I think we should talk a little bit about the process
of making the podcast,

Angus (08:02):
Okay.

Rohini (08:03):
Because it may sound like fun and games when people
are listening and listening in.
But sometimes it's far fromthat.

Angus (08:13):
Yes, sometimes it's very far from that.

Rohini (08:16):
And I thought it would be good for listeners to know
that. You know, just know moreabout what our process is.

Angus (08:22):
Okay. Are you gonna lead with this example?

Rohini (08:25):
Yeah, it's gonna ask you to share about your
difficulties with it. Becauseyou you seem to be more
challenged than I am.

Angus (08:32):
Yeah, sometimes it feels like pulling teeth. I think but
part of it is that we do it atthe end of the week, generally,
or Friday seems to be my worstday to do it. Because I tend to
feel a little fried on Fridays.
Mondays are better. Because Ifeel well rested after the
Sabbath.

Rohini (08:50):
That's not true. On Mondays you say, Oh, I ate too
much chocolate over the weekend.
Oh, I don't feel good.

Angus (08:58):
I have to have some joy in life.

Rohini (09:02):
You often say on Monday Oh I ate too much.

Angus (09:04):
I do. I do feel like crap on a Monday. Probably doesn't go
well on a Monday either. No, Ithink that I felt sometimes I
feel like I just don't know.
It's just just it's I don't knowwhy I don't have a bit of a
block around it. It's one thingto sort of sit down and have a
conversation with someone in a Idon't know, you know, in a

(09:27):
living room or a bar. Not that Ifrequent bars per se. But it's
another thing to sort of like befacing someone else with a mic
stuffed in my mush.

Rohini (09:45):
Someone else meaning me?

Angus (09:48):
Yes, meaning you and then to have this sort of deeper,
meaningful conversation. Whenyou're feeling like you'd rather
be doing something else But, butI, you know, I want to have that
deeper meaningful conversation.
And I guess there's a certainamount of pressure around it
too, because I feel like thereare times when, when I can be
listening to you, and you'reseeing something really

(10:12):
insightful. Now, without the micor the recording, I would just
be able to appreciate you sayingsomething meaningful and
insightful. But sometimes whenyou say something meaningful and
insightful, and you've taken 10minutes to do it, I'm like, Oh,
god, she's saying somethingreally meaningful, insightful, I
need to have a really goodresponse. And then when I start

(10:33):
to have those sorts, obviously,I'm not listening to what you're
saying. So I might have missedfive minutes of the meaningful
and insightful because I've hadto listen to five minutes of
like, Wow, that's really cool.
And then there's another fiveminutes Oh, shit, what am I
saying now? And if I say thewrong thing, it's like, oh, no,

(10:53):
that's all gonna go up in smoke,and we're gonna have to go back
to square one. But I guess we dohave the luxury of maybe, you
know, maybe doing some creativeediting, which, maybe we're
gonna have to explore more. Sohow to feel under so much
pressure?

Rohini (11:08):
I don't think I've ever talked for 10 minutes straight.

Angus (11:11):
I think you'd be surprised.

Rohini (11:15):
Certainly not saying something ...

Angus (11:17):
you know, you're having such a good time. But time just
you know, flies by?

Rohini (11:21):
Or maybe it just feels like that long in your mind.

Angus (11:25):
Maybe. But yeah, no, I think that's kind of really what
I'm up against is I fell under Idon't know, I put myself under
all this pressure to sort ofshow up and sound half decent.

Rohini (11:38):
Well, I also think that we are being required to dig
deeper in terms of our ownunderstanding during this
podcast in terms of ourrelationship.

Angus (11:50):
Yeah, no, it's kind of like this sort of parallel sort
of lesson going on.

Rohini (11:55):
You're gonna serve me with divorce papers.

Angus (11:58):
No, I guess because I'm all in, I better not. And that's
the other thing I have to worryabout talking to love because
then I might, you know, go anoctave too loud and then upset
the whole recording.

Rohini (12:10):
We're upset our sound engineer.

Angus (12:12):
Yeah, our sound engineer wouldn't like that. So all these
things to be mindful of. I feltlike constrained I felt like I'm
in this little. This little roomwith with with with rubber
walls, not rubber was what arethey for? What is it exactly? I

Rohini (12:26):
I don't know, some kind of sound protection sound? I
don't know. What is it soundmade

Angus (12:30):
Of foam, I guess it is foam scrape for encased
contained, constrained. So it'snot the ideal setup to be Angus

Rohini (12:41):
Having this and sit still.

Angus (12:44):
Exactly, I would just sit still and stare at my wife?
Like, I'm paying attention. Toomuch pressure.

Rohini (12:53):
So why are you doing it?

Angus (12:55):
Um, well, I like doing it. I like I like it. When it
works. I'm listening back to it.
Like the idea of a podcast. Iknow. It's just it's it's an
obviously ultimately, it'shopefully providing a service,
you know, people are going to beable to derive some value, this
experience that we've had. Andhopefully, you know, we're going
to be able to garnish it withsome valuable teaching points.

(13:16):
So yeah, on that level, I thinkit's a it's a worthwhile thing
to do. I don't know it's I havestruggled with the doing. But
I've enjoyed the the completioncompletion process.

Rohini (13:31):
Well, I just wanted people to know a little bit
about the behind the scenes thatit's not all as, what would
Alicia say, rainbows andunicorns?

Angus (13:40):
Yes. It's not all fun and games,

Rohini (13:42):
I would say. And it does feel like a worthy cause.
So we do hope that it'senjoyable for people.

Angus (13:48):
Yeah, it is. It does feel like a worthy cause and a good
service to humanity. And thatthat will remain my compass
point.

Rohini (14:01):
So shall we resume now?

Angus (14:03):
Yes.

Rohini (14:06):
Well, back to the section that we just listened
to. I don't know if Matteorealizes it but it really seems
as if he's painted himself intothis corner. by threatening to
serve the divorce papers toAlicia,

Angus (14:22):
You're looking at me very critically, how do you paint
yourself into a corner?

Rohini (14:27):
It's another saying

Angus (14:29):
Paint yourself into a corner.

Rohini (14:31):
I think it doesnt't say that.....

Angus (14:33):
Coffee is a surprising visual for me to behold.

Rohini (14:39):
It's a tricky situation where you make a mistake and
paint yourself into a cornerbecause you can't get out.

Angus (14:44):
Well where does that come from? paint yourself into a
corner.

Rohini (14:49):
I don't know. I've heard it.

Angus (14:53):
I just seems like a it just seems an unlikely thing for
someone to do.

Rohini (14:58):
It's not a good thing to do.

Angus (15:03):
they may be more? I don't know, it just kind of conjures
up an unusual image but I'll gowith that.

Rohini (15:11):
Oh, look it up, but I'm sure it's...

Angus (15:13):
some sort of thing that decorators live in fear of?

Rohini (15:17):
I think so.

Angus (15:18):
Okay.

Rohini (15:20):
Do you know what I mean, though?

Angus (15:21):
Yes, he painted himself into a corner.

Rohini (15:25):
And he's made this, you know, very strong threat. And
it's not helping rapport in therelationship. It's not improving
the relationship. And yet it'son the table. So what else is he
gonna do?

Angus (15:42):
Yeah, he's painted himself into a corner.

Rohini (15:47):
See, it's a good expression.

Angus (15:48):
It is, maybe. Yeah, I mean, it's not such as far from
ideal, let's say. Alicia mustcertainly feel like she's
walking on eggshells, walkingaround on eggshells. But there
was a little light at the end ofthe tunnel, I guess that my line

(16:08):
of I wouldn't say a line ofquestion, while kind of
questioning the line of inquiry,as it were, was to try and sort
of cajole him into puttinghimself in her shoes, which I
think he got to that point. AndI did notice quite a good degree
of compassion cup in the cadenceof his voice. So I thought that

(16:33):
was quite heartening.

Rohini (16:34):
Yeah, he definitely seemed to have some insight. And
the other piece that I thoughtwas really important that you
were emphasizing that, I think,is a really great point, not
just for this couple, but forcouples in general, is the
recognition that it's actuallyeasier to be all in in a
relationship,than it is to beone foot out the door.

Angus (16:53):
Yeah, I mean, I guess, if I, if I have to reflect on that,

Rohini (16:54):
Yeah, and I can speak to that firsthand, in terms of
I would say that it must take anenormous amount of bandwidth to
keep one foot out the door.
Because you've got to sort ofmaintain this stance, you know,
for him, it's a case of like,you know, I'm gonna wait around
for Alicia to change, and thenwe'll be all good. And she's got

(17:14):
to tiptoe around, you know,making sure that she doesn't
make the wrong move. But Iimagine, you know, for couples
thinking in those terms is kindof like, yeah, they can not be
able to be present in therelationship, because they're
going to be thinking about howto, you know, make this all work
or how this isn't working? Andhow, you know, what is my escape
plan? If it doesn't, and thatmust take up a, as I said, that

(17:36):
must take up an enormous amountof bandwidth. So how do you be
present? And how do you, youknow, be vulnerable? How do you
really be able to look for thegood in the relationship when
you're, you know, when you'reusing all your creativity
bsolutely, you know, you know,n a sense, by trying to, you
now, figure out your exit plan.

(18:02):
our relationship. There weremany years when we were...

Angus (18:05):
Really?

Rohini (18:06):
I think you knew about this already. But where I was
really working way harder than Irealized I needed to because by
my natural inclination, anddesire was to be all in and to
have a relationship that I canbe open and vulnerable and
intimate with. But because of myown fear of intimacy, and my own

(18:30):
feelings of fragility, that Iwouldn't be able to handle what
might come up in ourrelationship by sort of keeping
that door open or one foot outthe door. It took a lot of
effort, and wasn't going withthe natural impulse of what I
really wanted to do.

Angus (18:48):
Right. So if you want to painting yourself into a corner
in that situation, what will yoube in? If you are a decorator,
trying to figure out an escapeplan what would you be doing?
digging a hole in thefloor?looking out some drywall?

Rohini (19:03):
I would have been climbing out the window on the
fifth floor. And then realizingOh, I don't want to go down
there.

Angus (19:10):
Maybe you could parasail or something?

Rohini (19:13):
Well, no, I want it to be all in.

Angus (19:15):
Okay, thank you.

Rohini (19:19):
Well, and the next section that we're going to
listen to. I really, really lovewhat you did with Mateo in terms
of opening up his eyes to biasthat he wasn't even aware of.

Angus (19:35):
Yeah, let's see how that unfolds. You're kind of a little
bit hot.

Rohini (19:39):
Are talking about my looks?

Angus (19:42):
All your looks and also your volume. At the moment, it
seems like you're kind of likeyou've got your defenses up and
she's wanting to like you know,get in there and figure out
what's going on but if you ifyou're not present for her in
that way And it goes both ways.
You know, we kind of like put upbarriers, we have our own

(20:02):
inimitable ways of putting thosebarriers up. I mean, it sounds
like you're more inclined tosort of shut down and not want
to like, interact. She wants tointeract. She wants to find out
what's going on.

Mateo (20:14):
Or really offensive?

Angus (20:15):
Yes.

Mateo (20:15):
Like offensive not defensive.

Angus (20:16):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But you've basically, I don't think
you've got anything to lose justby like, you know, saying what's
on your mind, but just having,having that sort of idea in your
head that Yeah, I it's better ifI deliver this information
neutrally, rather than it's kindof like, I'm just throwing a
bomb here. And am I gonna walkaway?

Mateo (20:37):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a thing that I have to
learn, though, too, is like,what is the difference between
what I perceive as a neutralway? And then also, what's the
difference between, hey, I'mbeing poked? How much more
neutral can I be? Rather thanjust giving this person the bomb
that they're asking for?

Angus (20:58):
Yeah, what if we could somehow find a way to make you
poke proof?

Mateo (21:02):
That would be sweet.

Angus (21:03):
Like she could be she could have a moments of crazy.
Which we all have our moments ofcrazy. Maybe she's maybe how
crazies a little bit moredeveloped than us? I don't know.
That's not for me to say. Butwhat if we could figure out a
way where you didn't have totake any of that personally, you
can be poke resistant, but alsohave there's a sense of freedom

(21:27):
in your head going on in yourhead at the same time.

Mateo (21:29):
I just rather not get poked. That's the thing.

Angus (21:32):
I know. But is because you're taking it personally. And
I know and I understand. I cansee you know what where you're
coming from is like, you don'twant that to be your home
environment. But it's basicallyit's all of this is going on in
your own head. It's all stuffthat you're you're creating your
own suffering.

Mateo (21:51):
It's relentless, relentless. What happened this
morning? It was, I'm drinkingcoffee on the balcony, and she's
on her phone looking atInstagram. Oh my god. I love
Napa. Wouldn't you like to go toNapa? That was number one this
morning. Okay.

Angus (22:07):
Okay.

Mateo (22:08):
That's not like that happened last week or four days
ago? No, that was this morning.

Angus (22:12):
Okay, well, that's an innocent comment.

Mateo (22:14):
Sure. But after receiving that, quote, unquote, innocent
comment a million times andknowing that many of the times
that question, may be differentlocation different scenario, is
being asked there is abackground question which is
going on.

Angus (22:31):
But is that all that she said that she did? She then did
it then go into the usualtrajectory that you just
outlined about?

Mateo (22:38):
So today? It was. I just said, Yeah, I'd love to go to
Napa again.

Angus (22:46):
Okay.

Mateo (22:46):
Right. In the conversation deceased. Okay. So
yeah, that was, there was aunicorn this morning. I want
everything to roll smoothly. AndI want to know that when I'm
having these conversations withmy partner, there's no
underlying, real deep questionthat they're trying to get
answers to, which is a lot ofthe time, right. And it's, it

(23:12):
occurs many times where it'slike, what do you think about
this? Or where do you want to godo this, right? And it's one of
the scenarios that I'm saying,and like I said, I put up walls
and just like, no

Angus (23:27):
So for this morning, see made, what could be interpreted.
You know, if we had a, if wewere a fly on the wall, we're
not privy to all the other BS inthe past. She makes this
innocent remark. And then youimmediately go into sort of
almost like that pavlovianresponse of like, yes. This is
the narrative that I'm familiarwith. And I have my narrative

(23:49):
that lines up with that. And sowhat we know what our hope for
this weekend with is for you toshow up with an open mind. So in
a sense, that is a very narrowfocus. You're, we're really like
asking you to like this to widenthe shot and look at the whole
picture. And have an open heart.
So it almost reminds me of athere's a there's a commercial

(24:13):
that I saw, I was reminded ofthe other day, years ago in
English, the psyche soul, is inblack and white. It was a really
cool commercial. And it was fora newspaper. And there there are
three different shots and it'stalking about perspective. So
the first shop is like a real isa close up of this, this
skinhead running up again,running towards this guy with a

(24:33):
briefcase, and he comes up witha guy who recently like I sort
of base it like this. And thenthe next shot is that a guy's
walking down the end of thestreet. It's a little bit wider.
And he sees a skinhead runningtowards this guy with the guy
puts up his briefcase and thisguy starts running towards it
because you think obviously theguy is gonna get mugged or
something. And then the whiteshark is like scaffolding

(24:55):
falling down and is about tocrash this guy and the skinhead
actually saved this guy's life.
So it's kind of like there is aparallel for me because we have,
we have a narrow focus that youhave, obviously a formidable
intellect, there's no doubt inmy mind, you have a very, very
powerful intellect. But theintellect is all about figuring

(25:17):
things out, creating stories,like using all the data that we
have stored away here asreference points for how things
are going to unfold. So thismorning, that's what was going
on, you're in your intellect,you figured out the story, you
know, this pattern of behavior,it all makes sense. But that is
a narrow perspective as far asyour relationship is concerned-

(25:38):
Your relationship has got somuch potential just because you
have the full scope and thepower of the intelligence behind
life at your service at anygiven moment. To give you a
fresh new thought, a fresh newperspective.

Mateo (25:54):
Yeah, I understand. And I do see that by approaching every
situation with the same story inmy head doesn't allow for my for
growth in our relationship andgrowth within myself or herself.

Angus (26:12):
You in with your formidable intellect have
pigeonholed in a way that, Okay,I understand this animal now.
That's probably not the rightterm. I understand no human now.
This is who she is. I'vecompletely figured her out. And
there's no there's really nowiggle room wiggle room, I found
it away. She can change and asshe changes will be good. But

(26:36):
it's kind of like, that's whoshe is at the moment. And I'm
not really seeing any differentbut this morning, that could
have just been you know, I Icould say make random nuts. But
in the moment, there's kind oflike, Yeah, I like to go to Napa
and drink wine. Yeah, that'd behow I wake up today. But you

(26:57):
made it something so much more.

Mateo (26:59):
Yeah, I have. But I've also been Pavlov's dog
conditioned to think that way.
Yes. Right. So it's not just bymy own accord, I came up with
this, my head.

Angus (27:11):
The thing is that's not who you are. You're not Pavlov's
dog, you're not that hard driveof information. You're so much
more than that. Like that. Theemotion that came up yesterday,
that was really heartfelt.
That's who you are. That's yourinnate natural state as a human
being, that's who you are.
That's how you want to connectwith this world. That's the

(27:33):
sweet spot. The rest is juststuff we make up.

Rohini (27:38):
I just love where you got to in this section with
Matteo. I especially love Idon't know if you noticed it.
But there was that for him afairly long pause, after you
talked about how he haddeveloped this narrow
perspective on his relationship,and that he wasn't seeing the

(27:58):
potential because he was socaught up in his condition
thinking about it. And thenthere was this pause. And he
finally says that Yeah, Iunderstand. I see, by
approaching every situation withthe same story in my head, it
doesn't allow for my growth inthe relationship or the
relationship to grow orsomething like that. I mean, to
me, that was him sayingsomething pretty profound.

Angus (28:19):
Yeah, that was really quite a beautiful moment. And to
be honest, I think I forgottenabout that. But yeah, he did
seem, it would appear that hedid really see something there.
And that there was this longpause as the penny dropped. And
I was actually, you know,listening to that back, you

(28:40):
know, when I was harping onabout the intelligence behind
life, and that you're so muchmore than the narrative that you
created in your conceptual mind.
I was kind of anticipating, youknow, I didn't know what to
expect. I was just thinking, isthat gonna really resonate with
him? I don't know if that gavehim cause to pause, caused pause
that what you would say, but I'msaying it anyway. If that would

(29:04):
give him cause to pause.
Whatever came out of thatcreated a level of reflection
that allowed him to seesomething differently, you know,
which I thought was reallyrefreshing.

Rohini (29:17):
Yeah. And what led up to that, I think, you know, from
what I hear when I listen tothat, like the cognitive
dissonance between you and him,because he goes from saying, you
know, she's relentless. It'srelentless, and he's like, just
this morning you won't believeit. It was crazy like and I'm
like, Oh my goodness, whathappened this morning? She's
like, what was it I want to goto Napa do... and you were just

(29:43):
kind of been crazy like Is thatit?

Angus (29:46):
Yeah, I was it but I'm sure I was expecting her to say
I something I want to kill mymother in law.

Rohini (29:55):
And so I think that example and and you're genuine
like, what? that innocentcomment?what he talking about? I
think it really helped him seelike, oh, wait a second here.
Because when you really likelooking at the transcript or
listening to that, it's like,What on earth did she do?

Angus (30:14):
Yeah, I mean, I guess that was the point where he
suddenly realizes it, you know,I have kind of created this
crazy narrative narrative, blesshim. And but he has, you know,
he's got, you know, he's got areally good mind. He's created
this really interesting story inwhich Alicia has very little
room to maneuver outside theconstructs and constraints that

(30:37):
you know, in his mind, that's,that's her identity now.

Rohini (30:41):
Well, in a sense, it doesn't really matter what she
does, because you can see herthrough that lens.

Angus (30:45):
Yeah. Yeah. Although, um, yeah, at some point, there was a
little glitch in the matrix, andhe's seen something new.

Rohini (30:53):
I would say there's a pretty big glitch. Yeah,

Angus (30:55):
let's hope so.

Rohini (30:56):
And then, you know, leading into this next section,
it seems like with him, beingable to sort of let go of that
narrative about how annoying sheis how, how much she bothers him
and keeps poking him like isthat sort of slipped away. He
actually in this next section, Ithink gets to kind of a deeper

(31:17):
concern that's going on for him.

Angus (31:19):
Awesome. Let's see what's cookin.

Mateo (31:26):
There are also other scenarios, though, in our
relationship where my heart hasbeen very open, it's very open.
And just one thing is, I workedas a valet driver in Laguna
Beach, and I was alwaysapproached by a lot of homeless
people with mental illnesses, Idid a lot of volunteer work at

(31:46):
the hospitals in high school,and before then, and I have a
soft spot for all of that...

Angus (31:51):
That's amazing

Mateo (31:52):
And I'm very, I get emotional, like, I all cry about
stuff like that. And I rememberas a kid, we go to Mexico, and
I'd be eating with the familyand seeing a, you know, a kid
begging, and I would just breakdown in tears, and I couldn't
eat, and I would just, I pretendto tell my parents like, Oh, I
just, you know, I don't feelwell. But in my eart, what

(32:13):
really was is the pain of seeingthis person suffering while I
have, quote, unquote, everythingat my fingertips, and I can't do
anything for this person, right,other than, you know, feed them
today, I can't help themfurther, further, just in that
present moment. So going back tomy experience, you know, I dealt

(32:34):
with a lot of homeless folkswith mental illnesses. And I
really developed this soft spot,knowing that, you know, a lot of
these people, it's not their ownchoices that led them to that I
also had a friend in college whokind of, you know, came down
with schizophrenia. So I knewthat it was possible that people

(32:56):
didn't, their choices didn'tlead them to homelessness. So
I'm being very open. And thethings that she had to say,
which is what I broughtyesterday, the ignorance, t
e blatant ignorance really upses me. And it gets me disconnect
d from the ignorance and te person who is spewing t
e ignorance. So there was tims where she's just like, I

(33:20):
m afraid of all homeless peopl, they're all by choice, they'
e all criminals. And I'm thee thinking, I'm like, Wow, I'
e I've been touched so many tims by someone's story, like, h
w could you just be so narrw minded and, and shut off li
e that? Like, it's not someones not everyone's choice? Yea
, there's some people out hee that made this choice to li
e this life. But the ones tht I've come across, you kno

(33:42):
, didn't and they struggle evey single day with, you know, th
, the story in their mind, righ. And I mean, that sort of thi
g. doesn't allow me to be ope. I'm just expressing a dif
erent point of view, I have a sft spot, an open heart. And wha

(34:04):
I receive is very hard and col. And it's with some reg
rds, calculated, and the, it'been cemented in their mind tha
if you're homeless, you're a pece of shit, right? If you
re taking a knee, you've got noting behind you that you're, you

(34:25):
know, representing all youre trying to do is por
raying negativity. If you thik this way about how gov
rnment is supposed to opeate and protect its people, wel
, you're just an idiot. And youre not thinking like, so I'm ver
open minded, I can undrstand but when there's con
rete, very strong words, useagainst, you know, less for

(34:52):
unate or people that don't havthe ability to have a voice or
hose that are expressing a voie to you. Like expressing
voice to, you know, shed lightn in justices and, and you can
t even see that other opinin. That's where the ignorance k
nd of is a very big turnoff forme. There has been so many tim

(35:16):
s where I actually share my dep feelings and bring me to tears
because of you know, like I mentoned with the the poverty, ri
ht. And that wasn't the responsthat I got wasn't even remote
y close to what I was. I wasxpecting or, or wanting? I

(35:37):
on't know.

Angus (35:42):
So I listened back to that, that particular section.
And you know, whilst I wouldagree with I guess what would be
considered as material is fairlyliberal stance, I'm kind of
curious about how Mateo isgetting really hot under the
collar, about Alicia's judgmentand being very narrow, narrow

(36:06):
minded, in a sense, we can alsosay that Mateo is being pretty
judgmental and pretty narrowminded about how Alicia has
shown up in this relationship.

Rohini (36:17):
It's quite the juxtaposition because it's
beautiful to hear how big hisheart is, and how much he cares,
and how much compassion he has.
But then that's juxtaposed tohow cold hearted he is, toward
her, which is really curious,just like you're saying, and
it's a blind spot for him,because he's judging her for
being cold hearted, yet, hisbehavior and his actions toward

(36:40):
her are very much unloving anduncaring. You know, again, not
probably meaning to be, butthat's how he's showing up. And
then in this next section thatwe're going to listen to, you
really point him again to thevalue being all in and how if
anything's going to change, thatneeds to be a shift inside of

(37:02):
him in order to really supportthey're being trained in the
relationship. And I think thatthere's a connection between his
judgment and his not being allin in the sense that it's a
coping mechanism to prevent himfrom being at risk for getting
hurt. It's a way that he can bein the relationship but not be

(37:27):
vulnerable in the relationshipand not be at risk.

Angus (37:32):
Oh, the plot thickens.
Let's have a listen. Thesituation at the moment, it's
almost like the analogy I canthink of is like, you're in a
spacecraft, the relationships ofspacecraft, you've gone into the
decompression chamber to wait toget into the evacuation shuffle,
and you're in the decompressionchamber, and she's in the

(37:53):
spacecraft. And it's kind oflike, that is the limbo land.
And I guess for me in terms ofwhere I was going this morning,
what have you got to lose? Imean, at this point, if you
really, if there is a part ofyou wants to remain in this
relationship, then you kind oflike for my money, I'm just
gonna, you got to put all yourchips on the table, you've got
to show up and be your true openheart itself, and see how she

(38:15):
responds to that. Based on,hopefully, what we're doing this
weekend. It's like, if youcontinue in this vein of being
in the in the decompressionchamber, it's gonna be your kind
of damn, then if you do down,but you know, it's like, you're
kind of going to be stuck. Idon't really see it going
anywhere. If you can't get outof that decompression chamber.

(38:36):
Maybe the purpose this weekend,is for us to help you facilitate
an amicable divorce. I don'tknow. But if you as you say,
feel like there's hope, becauseit's like, like you said
yesterday, you're hopeful guy,you can't really continue in
this vein, you got to I gotta beyourself, you've got to have
that open heart that is kind oflike, that's how we want to live

(38:57):
and operate in this world.
Doesn't it feel good to be inthat space, when you're helping
out a homeless person, despitewhat how she's coming? You know,
how she's coming up against youin that situation? That feeling
that you have when you help ahomeless person that's so
expensive and incredible. Andthat's kind of like where we

(39:20):
want to be. And most of the timein our relationship, it's
impossible to be in thatsituation most of the time, but
you've got to least give that ashot.

Mateo (39:30):
Yeah.And it's not that Yeah...

Angus (39:32):
In a moment you've just kind of created a force field
around your heart.

Mateo (39:36):
You're right, you're right. Absolutely.

Angus (39:38):
I think it would be really valuable to if, as you
say, you want to approach thisweekend with a totally open
mind. It will be good to leastdip your toe in the water on
that front. Because otherwise,like you're just staying in that
decompression chamber. You'renot really, you're in limbo
land, you're not going anywhere.
Well, there, isn't it anamerican saying, which I think

(39:59):
is too crude to deliver on thepodcast airwaves. But it would
in English terms, go somethinglike this, evacuate your bowels
or cut off the WC.

Rohini (40:18):
And what do you mean by that?

Angus (40:19):
It means this like this is now the time to to really
make a decision one way or theother. And let's move on. And I
think that, you know, why are wehere, if not to make some kind
of meaningful decision?

Rohini (40:36):
Yeah, I think it was great that you brought up the
option like are we here to helpyou guys have an amicable
divorce? Like let's, let's landon one side or the other? Rather
than being in the... Did youcall it the evacuation chamber?
Not the WC evacuation chamber.

Angus (40:56):
I didn't mean that at all. Did I say no, I said the
decompression. But we might haveto rename our downstairs toilet
the evacuation chamber movingforward.

Rohini (41:14):
Well, anyway, close enough as far as I'm concerned.
But this is a really importantpoint in terms of what's going
on in the relationship that thisambivalence is a reflection of
state of mind. And it's actuallymuch easier to have the clarity
to go either way. Andoftentimes, it's it's really

(41:35):
difficult to make a decisionbecause there's a feeling of
such high stakes. And I canunderstand when it comes to a
marriage, it does feel like it'shigh stakes. It's a big
decision. But at some point,what your point, what you're
pointing to here is that at somepoint, it's too painful to stay

(41:56):
in a limbo land and not make adecision.

Angus (41:59):
Yeah, I mean, it is a big decision. And I don't think that
really gives anybody the rightto sort of play around with it,
you know, I think that he is toan extent playing around with
it. And it's, you know, it'scausing a lot of suffering for
him and Alicia.

Rohini (42:17):
Yeah. And it also, to me, this state of limbo, is
indicative of a way to stay inthe relationship without being
intimate in the relationship.
And, you know, we do have theprivilege of some hindsight
here. So I'm not going to givetoo much away. But based on what

(42:39):
we know, I can see more nowabout why this would on one
level be even though it doesn'tfeel good to Mateo, I can see
where there's a level of comfortwhere he still has Alicia in his
life, but he's not having toshow up in an intimate,
vulnerable way.

Angus (43:02):
Yeah, I mean, that would definitely be the impression one
would get, it's kind of likehe's created a level of safety.
And limbo is a very good word touse it, it's kind of really,
either one way or the other. Buthe doesn't, you know, he feels
like he's kind of King himselfinsulated from Hall. But he's
kind of suffering in silence.

Rohini (43:23):
Yeah. So we next get to hear another one of your
metaphors.

Angus (43:29):
We do? wonder what that is...

Mateo (43:36):
I'm guilty, I'm guilty of building this up, you know, all
the negative things that I, Iacknowledged in our
relationship, all the negativestuff that has gone on and that
I've stored in my mind, it hasbrought an even stronger
narrative into my mind where Idislike a lot of things about

(44:00):
her. You know, it literally goesdown to the way she drinks,
water, the sound that it makesthe way that she chews, the way
she heard, like, breath smells,like anything annoys the shit
out of me now. And I know thatthat was built from there. And I

(44:20):
know it's not right, right.
Like, you know, if I'm going tomake this work, I can't allow
these things to, you know,really, but like, it makes me so
angry. You know, I'm like, I'msitting on the couch and I hear
eating a chip and it just, itdrives me insane. And I think to
myself, and I'm like, Okay, areyou being rational Mateo? Like,
what if it was someone else onthe couch eating a chip? Are you

(44:42):
gonna react the same way? Yeah.
And it's come down to it's like,No, you wouldn't because
hopefully that other person canput you through all the shit is
person that's currently eating achip, right. put you through and
I worked on that.

Angus (45:01):
if your state of mind is already negative, your intellect
is going to look, it's going togo looking for all the filing
systems to try and match up.
systems that something that hasa same quality, if you like,
same negative quality, so badbreath, chewing her nails, the
way she interrupts or whatevershe does the numerous things
that you can, you can create alaundry list of problems for,

(45:23):
it's kind of like what it'slike, like fuel looking for the
most inflammable material tograb ahold of. And any one of
them can flare up at any moment.
But that's how those pathwaysget developed and become strong.
All right. Another analogy forme is like, did I talk about the

(45:45):
time towel that I mentioned thatyesterday, this came out from a
couple of weeks ago, it's almostlike I saw a comment what I was
looking at, I was looking atsomeone's blog, and they had
some pictures of what you Iguess they had images of neural
pathways. And it looked like allthese tunnels to me, like, you

(46:08):
know, we develop these neuralpathways. And then I created
these neural pathways as beinglike the stories that we like,
you know, create for ourselves,you know, some of them are happy
stories, some of them are sad,some of them are actually
terrible. But we create thesestories, and we create these
pathways. And then to me, theyjust look like time tunnels
tunnels, surely say, and then Ithen I had this memory or

(46:31):
recollection of this show that Iused to watch. When I was a kid
called the time tunnel. I don'tknow if they've remade it. This
is like back in the 60s, therewas this top secret was so
hokey, and it would be so crazyto go and look at it now,
because it's probably so badlyproduced. It was this top secret
government project. And I thinkif memory serves me right, the

(46:53):
government, we're gonna pull thefunding. And so the scientists
run the gun to see if it worksor not. So they actually ended
up trying to sort of like, be abit reckless about, you know,
their pursuit of, of developingthis technology. Anyway, so they
would walk into the time funnel,and they get sucked into a, in a
point, usually in the past, butit could be the future. And it's
kind of like, yeah, that's howour mind works. When those

(47:15):
neural pathways, there are thesereally, you know, some are
really strong, powerful andcompelling, that we have these
stories that we've created overthe years, and that something
happens in our brain is activelylooking for some sort of
reference point to line up withit. And then we get sucked into
the thought process sucked intothe time title. And usually with

(47:36):
us, as human beings, we getsucked into the past. And our
into, it's like, oh, yes, thatlines up. We can we can file
that away under like, you know,being abused as a child, or her
picking her nose or whatever itis. And then it is formed is
just really strong narrativesthat are just so hard. They're

(47:57):
like a gravitational force,pulling us into them. Yeah. But
it's all made up. It's justsomething that we hadn't
experienced in the moment wherewe just like created a narrative
and a lot of the time, it'sminute, isn't it? There is a
very much an illusionary qualityto it, but a lot of it is very
misguided.

Mateo (48:15):
Yeah, absolutely.

Angus (48:16):
Based on our mood. Yeah.
If we're making if we startmistrusting our thought process
when we're in a low mode, we'rekind of we're definitely going
in the right direction.

Mateo (48:29):
So you're absolutely right, and she notices it, too.
We'll be having a fun moment onthe couch, just laughing and
then all of a sudden, she seesmy, my demeanor change, and it's
because I'm sucked into the hey,yeah, we're having fun, but
fuck, I remember that one time,we were having fun and all of a
sudden blew up and it wasshitty, right? So now I'm gonna

(48:50):
shut down and yeah, for sure.
That happens. But how do Iremove the How do I remove the
association of you know,something as simple as her
breath or the way that shedrinks water though he you know,
to not really pull me back intoa dark place.

Angus (49:10):
First thing I do...

Mateo (49:12):
Right? Because what happened? I'm sure is we were in
a really pissed off mood, I wasbummed out and I heard her
drinking water and that was justone more thing that annoyed me
in that moment. So now anytimethat she drinks water I
associate that feeling in thatmoment with the sound of her
gulping, right. So how do Idisassociate her gulping being

(49:34):
with that, with that, thatscenario or that memory

Angus (49:40):
Once we get a hold of this understanding, we become
better equipped in the momentand I'm not saying that I you
know, I'm human. I have momentswhere I just like, you know, I
have my blind spots completelygoes over my head. This
understanding. We just getbetter equipped just to see that
yes, I'm not going to get onboard that train because I just
know It just leads gonna lead meto wrack and ruin always gonna

(50:02):
lead me towards suffering. It'slike that point I made yesterday
about the vertigo, the fear ofheights. It's like once I kind
of had that experience andrealize that I don't have to
jump on that train. I don't haveto go into that time tunnel,
then it's kind of like almostlike diffuses the situation?
Well, it certainly did for me.
But then then when I had thisexperience, where I was going

(50:25):
into my old narrative about howshe's a pain in the ass, and why
did I ever marry her? I thought,Oh, yeah, I can do the same
thing here. And I did. Andwithin minutes, I was like,
happily walking the dog alongthe trail. And let go of that
all the all the story that thathas that physiology with it

Mateo (50:46):
And you just walked in the house, and everything was
cool and chill?

Angus (50:49):
Everything's cool and chill.

Mateo (50:50):
Isn't that borderline psychotic? Right? I mean, come
on. It's crazy.

Angus (50:57):
It is crazy. Yeah, it's crazy based on on the narrative
that you're running.

Mateo (51:02):
And it's even crazier if the other person didn't have
this come to Jesus moment tooand was like, Oh, yeah, I can
forget about this. And then youjust kind of...

Angus (51:09):
That' s where we are now.
It's like, we're not taking ourflare ups personally. We're
getting much better at nottaking those moments personally.
It's just, I just taking mythinking, I'm feeling my
thinking in the moment. I likehow... she did, I can't even
what she did is something thatpissed me off my thinking, my
time tunnel thinking gotactivated, and I got really

(51:30):
upset. And then I justremember, yeah, it's just stuff
I've made up at some point in mylife. That, you know, that is
that if I really engage with I'mgoing to get those. It's just
it's going down a rabbit hole,it's just going to is never
ending just gets deeper anddeeper. And the physiology, the
low mood that comes with thatjust gets more and more

(51:53):
amplified.

Rohini (51:56):
Well, it seems like Alicia has become a magnet for
Mateo's low moods. But I doreally appreciate that he
recognizes it's a little crazyfor him to be so angry about the
sound of her eating a chip ordrinking water. So there's
definitely some insight there.
But I love the comment that youoften will say Angus about how
low moods go looking forsomething to hang themselves on.

Angus (52:22):
Yeah, it's kind of like low moods. They've kind of
behaved like fire looking foroxygen. They're looking for some
inflammable material or whatthey believe is the most
inflammable material. And inMateo's mind, Alicia is that
inflammable material, he'sconvinced of that now.

Rohini (52:43):
So for all of us, we can recognize that when, you
know, I think if we look at ourown experience of a low mood,
when we're in a low mood, wewill look outside of ourselves
to try and find the cause ofthat low mood, it we don't often
look inside and realize thatit's coming from within.

Angus (53:02):
Yeah, and that's that's the big pivot, isn't it? And
this understanding is, you know,our old way of being was to
Yeah, as you say, look forsomething else to hang it on
something else, or some, someoneelse to hang it on. And the
intellect really just goeslooking for a fall guy. I mean,
that's what the intellect does.
It's trying to figure out whatthe hell's going on here. I need
a reason to be feeling this way.

(53:28):
Oh, lo and behold, it's mynearest and dearest.

Rohini (53:31):
And the the thing with looking outside of ourselves,
when the intellect does that,and it finds something to hang
it on, it doesn't help us on anylevel, because it makes us a
victim to whatever thatsituation is. So Mateo, in that
scenario is a victim to Aliciaeating a chip. He's a victim to

(53:51):
to her drinking her water. It'sreally disempowering,

Angus (53:56):
Or the audacious suggestion of going to Napa.

Rohini (54:02):
But when we realize that that's what's going on,
then we get better at not tryingto hang out low mood on
something, and realize that wejust simply can't trust our low
mood thinking when it'shappening, that whatever those
thoughts are running through ourmind, and he is recognizing that
for himself, which I think ishuge. He's recognizing that for

(54:23):
him to be enraged by the soundof her eating like that doesn't
make sense. So he's not trustinghis thinking. But there's a
whole bunch of other low moodthinking that's going on that he
is trusting that hasn't quitereached that threshold of him
realizing Oh, I shouldn't betrusting that either.

Angus (54:39):
Yeah, yeah. You know, obviously, ideally, becomes an
indicator of our state of mind,and in this case, it's obviously
gone south.

Rohini (54:47):
So for everyone as a general guideline, our feelings
let us know when we can trustour thinking when we can and
when we're feeling negative.
When we're feeling badly. Itmeans that our thinking is
distorted and we be better offnot trusting what it's telling
us.

Angus (55:02):
Yeah, so. So when my wife is munching a little too loudly,
on the on the corn chips, it'san I want to go and get out my
Smith and Wesson at mysuggestion that my mood has gone
south in my state of mind is notin a in a place where I get to
make the most rationaldecisions.

Rohini (55:25):
Well, for you, it wouldn't be me munching on corn
chips, it would be me munchingon my cuticles

Angus (55:30):
Yes, that would be me in that scenario.

Rohini (55:36):
In this next section, Mateo is really seeming to grasp
what you're saying. But he's inthat space of Well, how do I not
take it? So personally, how do Inot get upset? How do I get into
this more balanced place? And,you know, as you and I both
know, whenever those howquestions are present for our

(55:59):
clients, it means they haven'tseen something clearly enough,
yet. We can't give them theanswer to the how question they
need to see it for themselves.

Angus (56:07):
Yeah, it's kind of funny, isn't it? Because, you know,
everybody's gonna ask thatquestion. Everybody wants to
magic bullet. Everyone'severybody wants to how to in the
process and the technique? And Iguess they get so it gets so
frustrated asking that question.
Eventually, they have to kind offigure it out for themselves. So
we just have to sit there andtwiddle our thumbs and wait for

(56:28):
them to wait for the penny todrop.

Rohini (56:32):
Like he really saw something here.

Mateo (56:39):
I do understand I'm just trying to play it in my head how
I would handle a situation andget over it. Because I do want
to get over it. I don't want tosmell someone's breath. And yes,
overcome with this feeling ofhatred. Yeah, right. That's not
comfortable for me.

Angus (56:56):
You have to somehow listen, beyond the intellect. It
sounds kind of crazy. But Iguess for me, the best way that
I can articulate it is kind oflike you kind of like approach
it from here. That's the sort ofin a sort of open hearted way.
Does that make sense to you atall? Does that does that land in
any way?

Mateo (57:14):
It does, and just I'm listening to you, but I'm also
processing. No, I'm also I'mjust tripping on Okay, I
understand what you're saying.
But how do I activate thatwithin me? Because like I said,
I really want this to work. Howdo I activate that?

Angus (57:34):
And I don't think you, you. I don't think we have
control of that. It's not likesome switch that we can flip.
It's kind of like, there's afeeling that comes with just
dropping into that space.

Mateo (57:49):
Have you ever seen? I'm sorry I've ever seen. What's
that movie called? I don't know,where the guy's trying to learn
how to surf. Right. And they'reon the beach. And it's Paul
Rudd. And he's trying to teachthis guy how to surf . He's
like, pop up. Now you're doingtoo much. And then he's, he's
like, do it again, pop up .
You're doing too little. He'slike, you know what? Let's just
go try it. Right? Wait, well,how I need some sort of guidance

(58:13):
on? Do I stand up really fast?
Do I stand up slow? Not justlike, you know? Yeah, yeah,
let's just let's just gosurfing.

Angus (58:23):
With this understanding is like, you've got to have your
own insight, you've got to seeit for yourself, you've got to
see how to hit that ball. Yousee how to get up on that
surfboard, you have to have yourown understanding around,
there's nothing really I can do,I can just, you know, do my best
to point you in the rightdirection.

Mateo (58:41):
Don't approach a situation with a running mind.

Angus (58:45):
Exactly, bingo. In terms of how you're showing up in the
world, that your state of mindis really important to have an
understanding around. So ifyou're in a low state of mine,
life is actually not workingvery well. But if you're in a
more upbeat state of mind,things look better, and you're
actually more open to insight.
And you have you don't have thenarrow minded quality that comes

(59:09):
with having having, you know, abusy mind. See, the busy mind is
just constantly looking foranswers and solutions. But those
answers and solutions is allthat's all old information. The
sweet spot is is the new

Mateo (59:28):
And I'm super guilty of this and I'm sure...
information.

Angus (59:32):
well you're a mathematician...

Mateo (59:33):
Yeah. So I'm sure I've pushed her to to be with. It's
really crazy, but like, the waythat I answer questions probably
gets her to think about the wayI'm answering a question and
she'll dive into that and nowshe's asking me questions,
really with a reference pointthat she's trying to get, which

(59:53):
bothers me even more. So I havea lot to do with this
inconsistency in the emotion orrelationship for sure. I see it.
Right. She asked me a questionone day and it could be totally,
totally innocent. And I answerit with the side that she's not

(01:00:16):
being innocent with it right. Sonow every time she's asked me a
question, not from an innocentlevel, because she's like, well,
he spun out on that other time.
Like, I want to measure wherehe's at now. Right? So I
probably created Yeah, my ownmonster.

Angus (01:00:29):
Yeah. Well, that's, that's pretty amazing insight
observation.

Mateo (01:00:33):
Yeah, I can see that and link it. Like, Oh, god, that's
my fault. Okay. See it? Solunchtime, like. That was good?
some deep shit! Yeah, I see it.
So just be yourself, be in themoment be cool, don't think.

Angus (01:00:59):
Obviously, you know, it's, it's hard to not, we are
thinking machines, but more acase of like, looking at the
state of our mind, we in a lowstate of mind or in an up state
of mind. And genuinely, if we'rein a low state of mind, it's
because we kind of like tiringourselves out, tiring ourselves

(01:01:20):
out up here, trying to figurethings out.

Mateo (01:01:23):
So then there would be also helpful to know when you're
in a conversation with someonewhat their state is whether
they're high or low, becausethat should also dictate how
conversation should go.

Angus (01:01:36):
Possibly, I think it's more a case of just being able
to judge what state you know,we're in When, when, when
they're when it doesn't reallymatter what state of mind are
they. And if we if our mind isdipping into a low state, then
then that's good enough for usto sort of like maybe not
engaged at that point. I feellike you've seen something

(01:01:56):
there's it must be. Do you thinkthis is this might be a good
place to start?

Mateo (01:02:01):
Yeah, I mean, I understand. I understand what
the the underlying vibe andapproach should be, which is
open mindedness and notreverting back to prior
outcomes.

Angus (01:02:21):
Yeah.

Mateo (01:02:22):
Are you blown away?
You're like, holy shit. Yeah,that's, that's good.

Angus (01:02:32):
I kind of blown away by you, you have a big heart. I
mean, that feels very evident tome. Just, you know, just as I
said, in the way that youinitially showed up, you're very
open. So no, that's kind of likethat's your natural state as
your essential nature is to beopen. So it's kind of you know,
it's it kind of breaks my heartto see you with your defenses

(01:02:55):
up.

Mateo (01:02:56):
It breaks my heart to see her with her defenses. Okay.
She's also lives for her heart.
That's, that's the shitty part,is that I've also cultivated
that, walking on eggshells andclosed off. And asking me dumb,
ask questions. That's allsomething that I cultivated. And
they see that those walls werebuilt up and fortified during

(01:03:20):
those moments, because it was alot easier to do it then because
we were in low moods, right. Sowe built these walls during a
low mood period. And they reallygot fortified those channels
that you're talking about. Sonow even when everything's
supposed to be cool, we're stillreverting back and getting

(01:03:40):
sucked into that, that path orthat tunnel, that strong, you
know, channel. So I do see that.
I just hope that I mean, I, Ithink acknowledging it
definitely helps everything. Andjust really hope that I can take

(01:04:04):
this mental process and remindmyself of, Hey, man, like you're
in a low mood right now.
Probably not good to be the, youknow, talking about this
specific thing, right? Yeah.
Because you're going to create areally strong channel in a bad
time, and it's not going to helpyou in the future. Which makes

(01:04:26):
sense.

Rohini (01:04:30):
This is one of my favorite segments of this whole
podcast so far, because it'sjust so exciting, heartwarming,
thrilling, to witness someonehaving an insight real time. And
for Matteo to go from notknowing asking how to all of a
sudden, like, Oh, this is notabout the intellect. This is

(01:04:55):
about me. Not thinking this isabout experiential learning. And
then from there to see histhinking more clearly and to
recognize, like, oh, all of thisbias that I've had running
against Alicia. That's mythinking, like, I've been the
one that's reacting from thatplace. And, of course, that's

(01:05:16):
had an impact on the report inour relationship and an impact
on her. Like, that's what'sgoing on and his level of
responsibility. And, you know, Ijust, I just loved it.

Angus (01:05:27):
Yeah, no, it was, it's really fun to listen back to
that. And I and I can rememberactually, I feel like when he
turns to me at some point,because he realized that, you
know, that I've seen something.
That's, I think what I startedto see in that moment was, I
could see the compassion that hewas having for Alicia. Finally,
and that was a really beautifulmoment. And I love that

(01:05:50):
surfboard analogy, you know, asa demonstration of, you know, in
his mind about how, you know, hehas to let the thinking go, and
he just has to, you know, it is,as you say, it is an
experiential learning. And he'llfigure that out in the moment
moving forward.

Rohini (01:06:07):
And that's the rewilding in action, that's
letting go of all of thatlearned conditioning, and coming
back to what is natural and trueto him.

Angus (01:06:19):
Yeah, absolutely. And that the compassion is his
essential nature. And that's,you know, it's such a beautiful
thing to see.

Rohini (01:06:28):
And that's what happens to all of us. And that's why
this journey is so beautiful, towitness with people, and to be
mentors and guides along theway, because it's really about
them letting go of learnedconditioning, that isn't who
they are. And they can't let goof it when it's invisible to

(01:06:50):
them. But as soon as theyunderstand that it's there, and
they see it, then immediately,it falls away.

Angus (01:06:56):
Yeah, and then you see the all misterous refreshing.

Rohini (01:07:02):
In the next section, Mateo starts to put the dots
together, in terms of theimportance of having an open
mind and how that's going toimpact really all areas of his
life.

Angus (01:07:14):
Yeah, and I guess, also, we go over some of the more
practical things that he can doto slow down.

Mateo (01:07:21):
The only time that I really unwind it is either when
I'm cycling, or when I'msurfing, like I'm really
thinking about when do I justrelease in into like bucket,
right, like at work, I'm, I'mworking, I am definitely calm,
but I'm working. And when I'mhome or playing golf for, like

(01:07:47):
hanging out with a friend, we'retalking about work or talking
about career oriented goals andright, so that's not true.
Hanging out and just like beingone with yourself, and...

Angus (01:07:59):
The cycling and the surfing.

Mateo (01:08:01):
Yeah. And then when I'm at home, you know, unwinding,
you know, smoking a joint andsitting on the couch and
watching TV isn't? isn't thekind of feeling ...

Angus (01:08:14):
That's kind of checking out.

Mateo (01:08:15):
Yeah, so the surfing and the cycling is definitely huge.
But the problem is, is I haven'tdone either in a long time. Like
I used to surf all the time withmy friends, but no one was in
the area, and I'm petrified ofshark so I don't go in the water
by myself, because I'm notstupid, right? It's better to
bring people with you to thewater than go alone increases

(01:08:35):
your chance of survival. That'smy mentality. And the cycling, I
just haven't done it. I movedaway from where it was very easy
to, you know, get lost in thecow pastures and, and they had
really cool roads where youcould just ride forever.

Angus (01:08:49):
When I was a little I was getting that as it you know,
it's important to see the valueand giving the intellects a
break. And that's one way thatI'm sure that you do it is just
cycling through the surfing. Andonce you get eyes for that, you
can see how that when you knowwhen you come home from work,
your intellect still white, youknow, trying to process what's
going on. Yeah, and that's notvaluable. It's all within the
context of relationship, if youcan identify that this state of

(01:09:12):
mind is not conducive to ahealthy connection at this point

Mateo (01:09:16):
It usually takes me like three hours, by the time I get
in time.
home to, to be able to have theability to even sleep. I just
need to Yeah, just chill out.
Please don't ask me so manyquestions, and I just need to
like hanging out. But that's,again, that's a story that I've
also created in my mind. Right?

(01:09:36):
I put that burden on myself byapproaching my home life with
that thought process. Yeah. So Ido have some things that I
probably should be doing morewhich join like a surf group or
something. But those are reallythe moments of like meditation
for myself to be able to really,like clear my mind. I know that

(01:09:59):
I've been missing some sort ofmeditation and some inner peace
within me. And yeah, and itfrustrates me about the surfing
thing because that was such abig part of of my life, even
though I'm not good at all, I'llgo on the record and say that
I'm not good at surfing. I justlike a paddling out there and
just being an ocean.

Angus (01:10:19):
Well, that sounds like you know, your wisdom telling
you that this is something thatit's important to do. Because,
you know, we can't really justrun out, you know, we can't run
on my intellect the whole time.
Because it's just gonna we'regonna burn out eventually. And
the burnout probably is in therelation. I don't know, to what
degree that's responsible. But Iwould say that if you're
constantly the machinery isconstantly running. It's just

(01:10:39):
gonna it's gonna be exhausting.
Yeah. You just need to have timeand space to just lay our mind.
Yeah. And then that's and thosemoments, that's when you know,
fresh thought comes in. You kindof pull back folk, you see the
wider picture? Yeah, you're notnarrow focus. Yeah, the

(01:11:02):
meditation point is that is thewider perspective.

Mateo (01:11:06):
It's crazy, cuz that's exactly how I felt when I was
going to ride. I feel soenlightened when I got back. And
when Alicia and I first gottogether, I was in that
headspace of just informationjust coming to me. And I wasn't
overthinking anything. And nowit's become a gear, right? I let

(01:11:29):
information come to me. But Ilearned from it very quickly.
And then I don't let any moreinformation come to me from that
source, because I already haveit played out how it works.

Angus (01:11:39):
Right? So now you... but do you see the value is like
this, this infinitepossibilities coming from that
space? Rather than like, oh,I've got this bit of
information, I'll store thisaway and figure things out from
there. It's like, well, butthere's so much more. And in a
sense, there's so much more interms of how you will deal with
your relationship. You can youcan look at your relationship

(01:12:01):
from that point of view. I'vekind of taken this information,
figure things out. And now Iunderstand my relationship. But
in actual fact, my relationshipis, has got no end of
possibilities.

Mateo (01:12:12):
Yeah. Yeah. And now it's like, I feel kind of awkward,
it's like to, is there anapology deserving on my end? You
know, how is that supposed towork? Because I see where I've
fallen short. Now. It's like afucking guilt thing. It's like,
Okay, well do I apologize.

Angus (01:12:32):
You have to follow your own wisdom on that I can't, I it
would be inappropriate for me toguide you in the sense that you
have a really big heart, and youjust got to trust and follow it.

Mateo (01:12:44):
Yeah, it's..

Angus (01:12:45):
it's really, I mean, it's beautiful to see, for me, just
to witness anybody who dropsinto that space, when you
dropped into that spaceyesterday, that was phenomenal.
When you dropped into thatspace, when we arrived, like,
here's a guy who's like, reallyopen, like, doesn't really have
much, you know, running on, youknow, what it means to like, you
know, embrace another humanbeing. Is just like, just,

(01:13:07):
you'll be guided by your ownwisdom on that. The Wisdom is
not really coming up from theold information, the wisdoms
came from here (heart), the moreyou trust here, the better off
we're all you know, me to themore we trust this space. And I
and I use the heart because it'skind of emblematic, of, of being
open. That's where the gold is.
Whether that's in a relationshipwith anybody. But you having

(01:13:30):
that sentiment towards thehomeless person, that's coming
from that space. You're seeingtheir essential nature coming
from that space. And it'sbeautiful. I mean, that's
really, we, if we allow that tobe our North Star, I feel like
we're good to go. Yeah. Andthat's, you know, when you have

(01:13:51):
those moments on your surfboard,or on your bike where you're not
thinking that's like, that'sfertile ground for the insight
to come in. But it becomes areference point to see, yeah,
look what happens when I'm in arelationship or in a
relationship that feels likeit's time to break down whether
it's a work relationship, or youknow, you know, a personal
relationship is because theintellect is like constantly

(01:14:13):
running, trying to figure thingsout.

Mateo (01:14:17):
It's usually breaking down because you're in a low
mood, and you're allowing it totaking more effect than it was
the way that you should reallybe putting on it. Yeah, , get
it. Cool.

Angus (01:14:29):
I think we should stop.

Mateo (01:14:30):
Cool.

Rohini (01:14:35):
I really appreciate how in this segment Mateo was
recognizing the importance ofhaving a relaxed and open mind.
And he recognized the activitiesthat fostered that experience
for himself. And he saw how hehadn't been allowing himself to
do those things that really lethis mind unwind and relax.

Angus (01:14:58):
Yeah, I thought that was brilliant. And I'm sure in the
moment, what I thought wouldhave been really brilliant was
that we got to this point wherehe's asking me about formulating
an apology. And I must havethought that that must have
really provided me with concreteevidence that he's had some kind
of meaningful insight. And wemaybe weren't even on the home

(01:15:19):
straight now. We've certainlyturned the corner and going in a
very positive direction. And Ilove the fact that that that
sense of compassion that Irecognized in him was probably
eliciting this feeling of guiltthat, you know, that he was
starting to come to terms withabout how he's been showing up
in the relationship.

Rohini (01:15:40):
Well, you don't want to get too optimistic, because you
haven't heard my session withAlicia at this point.

Angus (01:15:47):
Okay.

Rohini (01:15:48):
And we were going in a different direction, shall we
say?

Angus (01:15:53):
Interesting. Okay, well, I wait, I wait with bated
breath.

Rohini (01:15:59):
But I hear what you're saying in terms of the guilt.
Like for me, that's a wonderfuldemonstration of how from one
level of understanding, hedidn't feel guilty about how he
was behaving at all. And then hehas this shift in understanding
in the session with you. And allof a sudden, from that level of
understanding his consciencekicks in. And he naturally feels

(01:16:21):
a healthy guilt about that. Andit's not something that's bad or
wrong. It's actually him beingmore connected with his
conscience and more connectedwith his internal wisdom. And
that's guiding him. That's whatsaying, hey, maybe there's an
apology needed here.

Angus (01:16:37):
Yeah. And you can sense how the tension is lifted, and
that he feels an you know,there's a feeling that's just so
beautiful. It's like, you know,where we started, where he was
really in a place a very deepjudgment, that seems to have
evaporated to quite, you know,quite a, quite an amazing
degree.

Rohini (01:16:56):
Yeah. Now, he also is aware of how he can continue to
support himself, how he canallow his mind to relax. It
sounds like he has quite a lotof responsibility at work. And
he's taken that on and so hehasn't been practicing self care
in a way that really allows himto deep decompress.

Mateo (01:17:16):
Yeah, I guess one has to conclude through that's so
obvious that he has taken onextra responsibilities. And he
hasn't been looking off himselfin that way.

Rohini (01:17:27):
And I thought it was cool how he recognized when he
met Alicia, he was in acompletely different state of
mind.

Angus (01:17:32):
Yeah, it was excellent.

Rohini (01:17:35):
I guess we'll have to wait for the next episode to see
where Alicia is going.

Mateo (01:17:39):
Absolutely.

Rohini (01:17:44):
Thank you so much for listening to Rewilding Love. If
you enjoyed this podcast, pleaselet us know by subscribing on
iTunes. And we would love foryou to leave a review there.

Angus (01:17:55):
iTunes reviews will steer people to this podcast who need
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If you would like to learn moreabout our work and our Online
Rewilding Community, pleasevisit our website,
therewilders.orgThanks for listening. Join us
next week.