A New Era of Horsemanship: Part 1

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
You're an inspiration.
You were there to help me.
You just saw the need and said,can I help you?
We learn a lot from watching other horsesand watching other riders.
I'm Julie, goodnight, and thank youfor listening to my podcast about horse
training, equestrian sports and buildinga better connection with your horse.

(00:27):
It's time for Ride On with Julie.
Good night.
Back at the ranch.
Well, I've already been busywith a few horse expos this year.
I was in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania recently
for the Horse World Expoand we had a great time.
It was a little bit of a deja vu for me.
I did not realize until after I was there

(00:49):
that this was the very last expo I did
right before the shutdown in 2020,and it had kind of
just gone completely out of my mindwith all the crazy events that followed.
But when I was back there, I was like,wait, wait a minute,
what was the last time I was here?
And then I realized that's what it was.
And so it's kind of it was fun.

(01:10):
It was great to see everybody.
And it was a little bitkind of like a full circle event for me,
like sort of ending that chapter of allthe disruption caused by the pandemic.
So that was kind of fun and unexpected.
from there I went to the Kansas Expo.
We had a great time there.
It was a huge success, and I hadn'tbeen back there in a few years either.

(01:32):
So super fun to be back and,see all the friendly faces there.
Coming up next on my travel schedule,I have clinics, some riding
retreats,some super cool horsey vacations.
We're actually exploring a few new ideasfor riding tours, both here in the U.S.
and abroad, and I'm going to continueto develop new programs at sea later.

(01:54):
You as well.
And of course, here at the ranch,we are all eagerly
awaiting the birth of Annie's foalat the end of April.
We're super excited about it.
Everything's ready.
She's just getting, big as she can be.
you know, it's kind of simultaneouslyfeels like it's coming up really fast.

(02:16):
And, other times
it feels like it's going to be an eternitybefore she finally has that baby.
we're really looking forward to it.
And it's going to bean exciting event around here.
If you're interested in my publicappearance schedule or finding out
any information on the riding toursand retreats, head on over to Julie.
Good night, dot com events to get moreinformation on all of my upcoming events,

(02:41):
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(03:03):
Good night!
Today
I'll be talking with my good friendand assistant trainer, T Cody,
about the new revolution in horsemanshipthat's currently taking place.
We'll take a glance backat the history of horsemanship,
how the recreational horseflourished in the mid 1900s,
and then the impacts,both good and bad, that

(03:23):
natural horsemanship has hadand what we have to look forward to.
And in my what the hey Q&Aat the end of this episode,
I'll answer your questionsabout a nine year old horse
with sudden trailer anxiety,the mechanics of treeless saddles,
and keeping horses barefoot year round.
When you trail ridein the rocky Mountains.

(03:51):
Before we dive into today's topic,
let's kick things off with my new segment.
Long story short, I'll tell you a story
from the early days of my horsetraining career.
Funny or amusing?
Exciting or inspirational?
All of these are hard worn lessonsI carry with me to this day.

(04:11):
I hope to inspire and entertainyou by sharing my real life experiences,
even the hard ones, so that maybe youwon't have to learn the hard way yourself.
Today, I want to talk about
the early influence on my riding careerof the riding instructors I had.
Now I grew up with horses.
My father was super passionateabout horses.

(04:34):
We just had horses in our backyard,you know, they were just
common everyday backyard horses.
But we loved to do horse stuff.
And I started riding with my dadwhen I was just a little toddler,
you know, on the front of the saddle and,eventually I was riding my own pony,
and I actually startedformal riding lessons

(04:55):
at about the age of 6 or 7.
As I said, we owned horses, but really
prior to that, we just kind of flewby the seat of our pants.
And, you know, I spent most of my timeriding bareback, like, in my bathing
suit and, swimming the horses in the creekand doing all that kind of fun stuff.
So it was probably a good thing

(05:16):
that I started lessons when I did,because I was getting a little wild.
My first instructor was a womannamed Valla.
Now, to me, as a 6 or 7 year old,
it seemed likeshe was about 100 years old.
She was probably about my age,you know, 64 or something.
However, she seemed really old.

(05:39):
She was hunchback.
Bowlegged, chain smoking, camel cigarets.
Schedule that leathery, tough skin
of a woman that just spent herentire career outside life.
And to me, it seemed likeshe knew more about horses than God.
And I would grovel at her feet.
I would do anythingshe wanted me to do in the hopes

(06:02):
that she would teach me everythingthere was to know about horses.
And she just about did.
In my humblest opinion,
it was the best start to a riding careera youngster could possibly
have taught me about formal horsemanship.
She taught me about how to carefor horses, how

(06:23):
to brush horses, how to clean a stall,how to, you know, tack them up.
I'll never forgetshe made me take, bridle.
Now, this would be an, full Englishbridle.
Probably, Pelham bit with two reins.
She made me take that bridlecompletely apart right in front of her,
and then she shoved itall in a grocery bag,

(06:45):
and she told me to bring it back properlyassembled first thing in the morning.
I bet I was up till midnight that night.
Put that right all together,taking it apart, but didn't gather.
I could see one right.
But I know why I'd take it apart again.
But by George,by first thing the next morning
I had that bridleperfectly assembled, and,

(07:08):
I got the gold star for the day, and and,
you know, I was probably,you know, 7 or 8 years old at the time,
but I'm telling you what,I could look at a bridle
or a piece of tack,and I can figure out what it's on, right?
What's on wrong.
And I think little tiny experienceslike that are so formative.
When you're young and you're your way ofthinking is shaping.

(07:32):
So I, I really
she sheshe was most impactful to me, even though.
Oh, I don't know, I probably rode with heruntil I was about ten
and I was getting to be in my mind anyway,
a pretty good riderby then and jumping and all that.
But between the ages of ten and 14,
we moved to a new location.

(07:54):
My horses were no longer in the backyard.
They were in a boarding barn.
And from then on, by then,my dad had realized
I was kind of serious about riding.
And he really it was important to himthat I had good instruction.
So between the ages of ten and 14,
my riding instructors primarilyconsisted of men who were retired U.S.

(08:19):
cavalry officers. So
not to go too far into,
you know, the history of all of that,but the cavalry formally, disbanded in 19.
The horse Calvaryformally disbanded around 1942.
And so in the 50s and 60s,there were a lot of trainers that had,

(08:41):
just sort of been cut loose,and they had found their niche
in training horses and teaching ridinglessons and starting riding schools.
So there was a real preponderance
of retired Calvary officerswho were instructors and trainers.
And I had at least two of thosethat I remember very distinctly.
I do not remember their names.

(09:02):
I'm not sure I ever even knew their names,because you would either call them sir
or by their title, you know, sergeantor captain, whatever it was.
I'm not sure. Really sure.
But that was quite different from my, dear
old valor, who was, you know,just hung them in, in my mind.
And these were tough, crusty, very firm,

(09:24):
exacting instructors.
I learned a lot of really importantquotation lessons from them.
More about mechanics in your riding,
all with an emphasis on classical riding,which,
of course, you know,the military is entirely subscribe to.
So it was a very disciplined approachto horsemanship.

(09:48):
I learned a lot about dressagein this time.
you know, we learnedthat dressage was a training tool
that teaches horses to jumpbetter, higher, faster.
our lessons were very formal, very strict.
You didn't ask questions, ever.
you know, it would.
It would have been.
It would have been consideredbasically insubordinate

(10:10):
if you ask a questionbecause it would sound like
you were challengingwhat they were telling you to do.
so you just don't ask questions.
You just do what they say.
Those trainersdid not ride in the lessons, but
they would be addressing usfrom the center of the arena.
they were always smartly dressed intall boots and breeches.

(10:32):
Usually,you know, a more professional looking top
polo shirt or button down or something.
and they almost always carried a whip,like a crop size whip.
And for emphasis,they would slap their boots with the whip
and, still to this day,
every nowand then when I'm teaching in a clinic,
somebody may have come into the arenawith a crop or something

(10:55):
because they have a lazy horse,they can't get it.
So that carrying a crop or something,and either they drop it or I ask them
or I take it away from one,and I end up with this crop in my hand.
And as soon as that crop gets in my hand,I turn into one of these
old cavalry officersand I get mean and exactly.
And I start smacking my bootwith that crops.

(11:17):
It's kind of fun.
So what was interestinglooking back on that
is that I was
I really thrivedunder that kind of instruction.
I was a very driven riderand I was a very ambitious rider
by then, not ambitious, and that I wantedto, you know, go to the Olympics.

(11:40):
I, I was smart enough to knowthat was not within my realm of resources,
but Ijust wanted to be the very best rider.
So I was very driven rider.
And interestingly,I was an extremely shy kid.
I didn't have a lot of friends.
I didn't talk a lot.
I just didn't need that.

(12:01):
I spent a lot of time alone.
I liked being alone, but I wasn't alone.
I was with the horses.
But for whatever reason, this shylittle kid that didn't have many friends
really thrived on this boot campstyle of instruction.
And there were two,two different instructors
I remember real well thatI just want to just to tell you about

(12:22):
and as I said,I don't remember their names.
And you really only called them siranyway.
But I'm going to call, the first one,the main guy with the whip.
And this guy was just it he,he had a mean streak in him.
And like, I knew that, but I never feltlike it was personally targeted at me.
I just felt like he was kind of had that,you know, drill sergeant kind of way,

(12:47):
but that he was also bringing outthe very best in me and my horse.
And I guess I knew that.
So it didn't really bother me.
But he would oftenset up a job as an exercise.
So there might be like a big vertical jumpwith 3 or 4 ground poles in front of it,
and you had to say, youknow, trot over 2 or 3 ground poles

(13:10):
and then take the jump at a trotor something like that.
He was set up some exerciseand you had to do it exactly that way,
whether it's the stridesor the gait or whatever.
And he would stand there with a whip,
not just a little crop,but like a lunch whip.
And if your horse popped the jobor through an exercise or something
like that, he'd crack that horsewith the whip right on the high knee.

(13:31):
And if he thought the rider did somethingwrong, he'd crack that with
right on your back.
Not a lot.
I'm like, not in a lashing way,but just kind of pop it out. You.
But, you know,I thought it was a little bit
excessive, but, boy,you you paid attention and,
you know, of course, stufflike that would never fly today.

(13:53):
there was a lot of stuff in my childhood
in riding lessons with paid trainersthat would never fly.
Today.
This just was a different era,and they were more exacting.
They were less afraid of liability.
and, and,you know, they just demanded more.
And as I said, I did pretty well. Now,

(14:15):
the other guy wanted to tell you abouthe was also a retired cavalry officer.
Now, by now, I'm just a little bit older.
So, maybe getting towards a 13,14 year old.
And I remember one timebecause this was in Florida
and it would be so stinking hotand you'd be wearing a black velvet helmet
and one really hell,
when it was a hard hat witha little elastic thing under your chin.

(14:36):
And we would also weartall boots and chaps
and it'd be like, you know, I don't know,90 degrees and 100% humidity.
And I learnedI had several incidences of passing out
during riding lessonsand with just heat stroke, I guess.
And I learned to recognize the signsas they were coming on.

(14:58):
And one time I was in a lessonand I felt the,
first, yeah, everything gets real echoey,
and then you start seeingthese black splotches in your vision.
And so I knew that
the next thing that was going to happenwas I was going to pass out.
So as I came by the gate,I slithered off my horse
and I just managed to open the gate

(15:21):
and get out the gate before I fainted.
And, you know, as soon as I hitthe ground,
I came back to consciousness
and that trainer was yelling at me,
who do you think you are,leaving this arena without permission?
And you get back in here and just.

(15:43):
And I was laying passed out on the ground.
He didn't really care.
My horse did care thatmy horse stood over me and like,
my face was kind of sweet.
anyway, like I said,
this kind of stuff wouldn't go on today,but they were commonplace back then. And,
you know, between valor,

(16:04):
being my first introductionto knowledge and wisdom of horsemanship
and not just having to learn by the seatof your pants, and then the second cog
of having these exacting dressage
based military, style trainers,
you know, really significantlyshaped me as the rider I am today.

(16:24):
So, I'm very grateful for it.
But I have to say,I was on my own to learn things like feel,
to learn things like communicationwith the horse, to refine that
communication to where it'salmost seamless and subconscious.
that kind of connectivity with the horse.
I had to learn that myself.

(16:46):
That was not taught in any way wasI was strictly taught mechanics.
So those things weren'tpart of any lessons.
And back then horses were treatedmore or less like machines.
certainly people did not believethey had feelings.
They didn't really understandthat they were emotive
animals with cognitive abilities.

(17:09):
so I learned a lot on my ownjust by spending time with horses,
you know, riding them on the groundwith them in the barn,
with them out in the pasture with them.
And I learned a lotthrough trial and error.
even as a young professional horsetrainer,
it really, you know, it was no placeto go to learn how to train horses.
You just did it.

(17:30):
And you learned by trial and error.
So later, as a teen
and as a young adult,I went on to study any scientific research
into horse behavior and training methods,and I could lay my hands on.
But I'll be honest, backthen there wasn't much or just,
you know, there wasn't enough interestin horses

(17:52):
or money in horsesfor there to be any scientific research.
To this day, I still devour everything.
I can lay my hands on that science space.
And, regarding methods for horse training,but today
there's a lot more at our fingertipsthan there ever was before.
And in fact, I would definitely saywe are entering into a golden era

(18:16):
of horsemanship where knowledge and
and science based trainingtechniques are going to rule the day.
And this brings me to today's topic,
which is ushering in
a whole new era of horsemanship.

(18:41):
Let's just take a look back,
and talk about a very,very brief history of horsemanship.
You know, modern horsesevolved in North America, actually.
Did you know that, too?
You know, actually,I just recently read that.
I think I'd read it before,but it it kind of piqued my curiosity.

(19:01):
They evolved in North Americaabout 2 million years ago,
and they migrated to Eurasia,
and it is their amazing adaptability
that has allowed them to flourishin different types of habitats
and in different climates, from cold awareto hot to dry all over the world.

(19:22):
So that's kind of interesting.
And evidence also indicates
that horses were firsta menu item for humans.
That's how they were first importantin human society.
And that kind of evidencegoes back, about 150,000 years.
So horses have been around a long time,and they have been interacting with humans

(19:46):
in some way, for, for that long
as it potentially up to 150,000 years.
But it's been in about the last5 to 6000 years
that horses have really beenan active part of human society.
Or we could think about,
in the last 5 to
6000 years, horses have been with humans.

(20:07):
they first started out as transportingand then went to ag work.
ultimately, they seem to have
their greatest value and statusas war horses.
Battle horses and eventually horses
became a serious symbolof power and status and society.
And, I say eventually that was still,you know, several thousand years ago,

(20:31):
3 or 4000 years agowhen they, became this big symbol
of power and status,as well as being super functional.
So, I like to say,and we hear a lot of people say that
civilization was actually pavedon the back of the horse.
As long as there's been humancivilization,
horses have been a part of it.
It's pretty amazing to think about.

(20:53):
But of course, you know, fastforward, clear up
to, let's say, the early 1900s
when the combustionengine came on the scene.
That, of course, really changed thingsbecause now horses
lost their primary value,horsepower became mechanical,
horsepower became engine driveninstead of horse driven.

(21:16):
And that's when things really beganto change.
The last time U.S.
horses were used inbattle was actually 1942,
and after that,the horse cavalry was disbanded.
And that's kind of the dawnof the recreational horse
era by, you know, 1930s

(21:37):
automobiles were pretty prevalent, 1940s
no longer using horses in the militaryby the 1950s.
That kind of ushered in the era of horsesas a luxury item
and horses as a recreational item
instead of a utilitarianor instead of a war horse or whatever.
And that was kind of an interesting erain my mind.

(21:59):
Now, I wasn't around for allof that. I'm not that old.
I actually was born in 1959.
So, you know, my first lessons with valor
would have been,you know, 1965 or whatever.
But I do knowbecause my father was smitten by horses
from the time he was a kid.
And back then Shetland poniesbecame a huge status symbol.

(22:25):
Shetland ponies back in the 1950s.
You can Google this.
Were selling forlike tens of thousands of dollars.
Unheard of prices.
And they were fancy poniesjust because they became a status symbol.
It wasn't just Shetland ponies.There were other.
I suppose having a pony was a statementin and of itself.

(22:46):
It's like we don't even need a big horse,you know,
or even our little kidsget horses or whatever.
But in fact, my father did buy a fancyteam of Shetland ponies in the 1960s.
I do recall hearing this.
Yes, I grew up in the school of hardknocks with Shetland ponies.
Who would you know? They were.
They were fabulous in harness,but when you would ride them,

(23:08):
they would just pretty much dowhatever they wanted.
So and they had all those pony tricks,you know, go under the low branches,
rub against treesand go under the hitching rail
and run away with you or not move at all.
they were wicked little things.
But you, you know, you learned a lot.
Actually, my father told me thatI didn't remember this

(23:29):
because I was, I don't even remembergetting the Shetland ponies.
They were just always there to me.
But he said he actually bought,a pair of Shetland ponies
that were untrainedbecause he thought he could do it.
And he said they were just evil,
and he just he couldn't manage them.

(23:49):
And then he realizedit was worth paying the money.
It was probably the first time
he'd ever actually paidbig money for a trained horse.
And I don't know what he paidfor them, but, he went back
and he took those unmanageable ones back,and he got himself a really nice team.
Cricket and cracker were their names.
Little black Shetland.
Sounds like that's a policyyou still like to, issue to people

(24:13):
pay the money for a trained horse?
Yes. Don't, don't go to a school or not.
Just chuck it out all up front and startenjoying life today.
So now we're,you know, into the 50s and 60s
when there is this big shift towardshorses being used primarily in recreation.

(24:36):
Now, racing, of course, is really hugeduring all this time.
Huge status polo, all that stuff.
And then people are starting to ridefor recreational reasons.
But horses basically are startingto become a luxury item by now.
So I was listening to another podcast,unrelated to horses the other day,

(24:58):
and this timein a really interesting statement,
he said, when it comes to luxury items,
there's only two reasons to owna luxury item.
One is statusand the other is self achievement.
And I thoughtthat was a really interesting statement.
And if you think about it, at leastin my thinking about it, it's true.

(25:21):
And I mean, you could get into a debate
maybe if we start definingwhat a luxury item is.
But if you have the luxury
of owning a horse and back then,
even in the 60s and 70s,
if you had the luxury of owning a horse,
you were probably either doing itfor self achievement or for status.

(25:44):
I think that's today too.
I think it really applies. Yeah.
And I mean, there could be some, you know,
like mixed reasons,like maybe you want a little bit of both.
But I think about my boat,you know, definitely it's a luxury item.
Nobody really needs a boatexcept a commercial fisherman.
But that's not me is a luxury for me.

(26:06):
My boat is definitelynot a sort of symbol.
It's a 20 year old boat.
She's pretty,but she has a good personality.
But it's a huge thing of self achievementfor me.
And I think horses obviously,or self achievement for me,
and I think for most of us, for you,for me,
for most of our friends, formost of the people that come to clinics,

(26:27):
go on our riding tours and all of thatis self achievement, not status.
But we all know there are plentyof people out there for whom it is status,
for whom it is making a statement or apretty ornament in their yard or whatever.
Of course, as I said,back in the mid 1900s, there was a lot of,

(26:48):
status symbol in horses racing,you know, huge status sports.
Modern breedswere developing about this time,
you know, back when I was growing upand I grew up in Florida.
So Florida was predominantly QuarterHorses and thoroughbreds
because it was really big into racing.
And Quarter Horses were just,you know, the most ubiquitous breed.

(27:10):
Every now and then you'd see an Arab
or a saddle bred or something like that.
I remembervalor made me learn the breeds of horses,
and there were only like 26.
And, so you enter into, let's say,from 1950, really
to the turn of the century, we startedseeing all these breeds forming.

(27:34):
And I still to this daysay every week I hear of another breed
I've never heard of,and I follow this stuff pretty closely.
So now, you know,
there's an incredible number of breedsnobody could possibly keep up with them.
So where did they all come from?
I don't know, you know, differentcountries and importing and exporting and
and then of course,a lot of what we think of as purebreds

(27:57):
today started out as crossbreedingtwo different breeds.
And now we call it,you know, something purebred.
But so anyway,so this was an era where a lot of status,
a lot of up and coming sports with horses,whether it was rodeo,
horse showing, racing, polo,a lot of breeding was going on.

(28:18):
People started breeding horsesjust for the sake of breeding horses.
And so consequently overbreeding was occurring.
A lot of indiscriminatebreeding was going on at this time.
Eventually we started with the PM2 era.
The pregnant mare urine farmstalk about the very definition
of indiscriminate breeding.

(28:39):
When they were breedingbig mares to any stallion in order
to harvest the mare urine for primerin for a hormonal drug for women.
And so during that time, when horses
were actually no longerpractically useful in society,
they were finding importance inin this realm of status or realm of sport.

(29:01):
And then all this breeding was going on.
So the population of horsesin the United States
just exploded during this time.
So then during that
time, and I would say,I would say the onset
of natural horsemanship, I'mgoing to call this kind of the next era
of modernhorsemanship in the United States

(29:25):
saw the onset of natural horsemanship.
And I'm going to just I don't knowany official numbers, but I'm going to say
it really sort of had its seeds earlyon, like in the 60s and 70s.
That's when, you know,there was Ray hunt was on the scene
and the Dorrance brothersand there were these undercurrents of this

(29:47):
new way of doing things, and that laterbecame known as natural horsemanship.
Right.
and you, well,you're about a decade younger than me,
but you and you grew up in Hawaii,where the scene was different.
I mean, it
just had to have been built on an islandin the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

(30:09):
I always say I left because I eventuallyrode all the horses that run the island,
and again, had to go to the mainlandto find new horses.
Yeah. But nonetheless.
And you, when you didcome to the mainland, you were involved
with a lot of, working at a guest ranchthat had a lot of clinics
and clinicians and all different typesof different types of horsemanship.

(30:32):
That was very fortunate for meto have that exposure to all of that.
And that was likethe heyday of natural horsemanship.
It was.
And that'sactually how I ended up at this guest
ranch is an advertisement for Horsehelp, said Natural Horsemanship.
And you had to send a video to themof what you did and all that stuff.

(30:54):
But your mentor as a kid
who's more my age,who is someone I also came to know
who I put on the very highest pedestalof excellent trainers.
And but he's not famous.
he actually intentionally chosenot to go that route.
He didn't like what he saw.

(31:15):
I don't want to put words in the mouth,but out.
Actually, he actually told me that
he teased me relentlessly
for teaching a partof that commercial scene and all of that.
So but to back up a little bitby the time.
So I, I started my horsetraining business in the mid 1980s,
I was just out of collegeand by the time I realized

(31:39):
I was going to be in the horse businessand I started taking horses and training,
I can't really say I had heard the termnatural horsemanship.
I wasn't directly connected to all thoseundercurrents that were going on.
I was a little bit of an island untomyself, coming off the racehorse scene,
and I, I would sayI was doing natural horsemanship,

(32:00):
but I didn't know what it wasand nobody taught it to me.
I just was making it upas I went kind of thing.
But you were exposed to it through David,and his way of doing
things was very, what we came to knowas natural horsemanship.
Yeah.
He was in the forefront of thatand brought it home to us.
And that's what we knew.

(32:21):
Yeah, that's what he had opportunityto kind of be with
some of these menthat were, doing this kind of stuff.
And in the 80s, stuffwas starting to spark something in him.
but he also saw what then
happened was this huge explosionof the popularity of natural horsemanship.
And I'm going to say what,

(32:41):
you know, probably more in the 90s,
2000s early, 2000s.
Well, even by,you know, the early 90s, like
it was quick for him to have a turnaroundand see because it was taking off.
Then everyone was developingtheir programs and promoting themselves.
And yeah, that was just the antithesisof why you do it to him. Yes.

(33:03):
He didn't want any part of that.
So he was in he got us all interested
and then he's like, I'm out,
I'm not doing it.
So but he's still an incredible horseman.
He still had an incredible he yes he did.
And he brought not in the limelight. No.
He and and ended up being the peoplethat he liked working with.
Stayed below the radar.

(33:23):
Also some really great horsemenBrian Newberg, Randy Raymond
that he would bring, he brought, so
we did get that exposure to the quiet,more humble,
way to do things now for that.
Yeah.
And you're right.
And some of those lesser known people,really
a lot of people would agree with me.

(33:44):
And I say some of them arethe most talented ones out there.
They just have chosen, like David,not to follow the limelight.
and so this full blossomof natural horsemanship in the 80s,
90s, early 2000, you know, that was mywhole coming of age in my career.
I mean, I started out in the mid 80sand then here we are today.

(34:07):
so I admit it. I rode that train.
I rode that pony.
As far as it take me, I learned a lot.
I was really open to the ideasI did not subscribe
to all of the tactics and techniquesI, I didn't like.
I actively did not likesome of the tactics and techniques.
And we'll, we'll talk about thata little bit later.

(34:28):
But natural horsemanship did bring a lotof good stuff to the world of horses.
You know, I you know, I mentioned earlierthat, you know, when I was a kid,
peopledidn't really think about horses as,
well, they actually believedanimals did not feel pain.
You and I watched a video, a YouTube video
the other day of a very famous horsemanslash veterinarian from

(34:53):
maybe the video is late 70s,and I'm talking about
how this horse doesn't feel this and yeah,all of that.
Yeah, that was that was brutal.
That was the common belief thatthey didn't have any cognitive ability.
Nobody ever use the word relationshipwhen it came to horses.
And then, you know, and so, you know,
it's definitely,a different mindset back then.

(35:15):
And so natural horsemanshipbrought this new mindset.
It also brought some new toolsand some new solutions
to dealing with quote unquote,problem horses.
But it also slowly raised the awareness
that there there might be alternativeways to view the horse,
and there might be alternative waysto approach horse training.

(35:37):
So that was great. Yeah.
For the first time in the you know, 5000
year history of riding horses,
people began thinking, well,maybe there's a better way to do things.
Maybe these animals could be morecooperative, maybe, you know, whatever.
So that awareness was importantand and I think it
definitely represented a change in the waywe think of and view horses.

(36:01):
Now, it took a long timeto be broadly accepted like it is today.
I remember even when I was doing clinicsback in the, you know, 90s and 2000,
when you would go to the East Coast,people were very resistant
to anythinghaving to do with natural horsemanship.
When you go to Europe,they would really be resistant to it.

(36:22):
But that's changed.
If people are, it's sort of becomejust kind of common knowledge. Now.
So atthis point with natural horsemanship,
horsemanship is becomingless human centric and more horse centric.
So we're more focused on the horsenow instead of the human.
However, it was sort of pseudoscientific.

(36:44):
And, you know, we call itnatural behavior, but it was really based
on one person's experienceor one person's anecdotal experience,
not based on scientific researchin any way, because they're just
really one much researchinto horse behavior prior to this time.
So things ended up being

(37:04):
a little bit unscientific, sortof couched in
something that sounded scientific,but it really wasn't what it did.
Dude was created a methodologythat helped people train horses
without actually needingto know much about horses or training.
So it was like a methodologythat said, do this first,
then do that, and then,you know, use this halter and this lead

(37:28):
and this stick and then pay the moneyand then it will happen for you.
And also along with that, there became
and I guess you could tie thisto also the rise of media.
So video of course.
And then later the internettelevision messages were getting out

(37:48):
along those same lines,something that was important going back
to being on an islandwas when these programs were created,
you didn't have to have access in personto these people.
You could have a video, video,or you buy the little booklet and it says,
if you do these 20 pages and you are
now qualified to go onto the next 20 pages or whatever.

(38:10):
And so here's your badge.Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So exactly.
So the message was getting out therea little more pervasively.
And that was good.
But also these iconic figures grew,that developed large followings.
And this is how things started becoming
very gimmicky and very commercialized.

(38:31):
And I think that also
during that time, big egos were happening
and this probablyturned off a certain crowd.
and I would say it
tarnishedthe whole natural horsemanship movement
a little bit because it became moreabout those figures than about the horse.

(38:51):
Also, even though natural horsemanshipwas supposed
to be representing a whole new wayof doing things, in many ways
it was really just the same old forcefultactics wrapped up in a pretty package.
For instance,if you're carrying a heavy four foot stick
with a long lash attached to it,tell me how that's different from a whip.

(39:16):
And so the, you know,
as we both know, the whole round pen scenethat was a huge part
of the natural horsemanshipmovement was working horses in round pens
today, to be honest,it's frowned upon in most more elite
circles, in academic circles, in the horsewelfare circles,

(39:38):
it's considered high stressand forceful tactics.
You know, it doesn't have to be that way.
And I remember backI was probably 20 years ago,
but I was trying to talkthis expo producer into letting me do,
around pen demonstration
and she quote unquote, said to me, Julie,

(39:59):
I got a stack of foot high of round pensthat want to be in this expo.
What makes you thinkI need another round pen?
Or what I need is somebodythat can teach people how to write.
So I want you in the arenateaching people how to ride.
And while that was a compliment,
I was so frustratedbecause I felt like I could teach around
painting better than the waymost of the people were doing it.

(40:20):
They weren't really explaining things.
They weren't really talkingabout reading the horse and
and the pressure zones and all of that.
So round pinning done poorly
can be actually abusive to horses.
When you say, yeah, definitely
see it all the time nowadaysand it's become a verb round penning

(40:43):
Whichbasically I think people just feel like
if they just go in the round penwith that horse and chase them, that's it.
No further knowledge.
I'm just in the roundpen, working them, round pen and round pen
and, see it all the time.
And there's so many subtleties in that.
So important to to have a knowledgeand have a goal of what

(41:05):
you're trying to accomplish, you know.
Yeah.
What's the point of it all. Yeah.
And I think that's really important.
And, and I've always saidwhat is the ultimate outcome
is that when we finish in the roundpen, that
I have established a dialogwith the horse, he's focused on me.
He's looking to mefor information and signals
as to what he should be doing or whatI want him to do.

(41:28):
But I've also always said
that the round pen is a temporary place,and that once you accomplish
what's needed,you should never have to go back there.
If you have to go back there,something's going wrong.
But to a large number of people,
round pinning could be consideredentrapment for the horse.
You put him in the smallpen, and then you chase him.

(41:50):
And that's the horse's opinion, too?
Yeah. Entrapment. Yeah. True.
probably more horses think that way.
That people. Right.
So that was one partof natural horsemanship
that sort of became tarnished.
There were more than a few instancesof high profile people, you know,

(42:10):
live stream video, working a horsein a round pen to the point of collapse.
And, you know, most, most people are goingto look at something like that and go,
that's not right.
I don't care what else you say about it,that's just not right.
So those were extremely unfortunatefor the movement of natural horsemanship.
And it started planting the seeds forwait a minute.

(42:32):
There's got to be a better wayto do things than this.
Another thing that sort of has madenatural horsemanship,
a little bitpassé is the focus on dominance.
Dominance has become a dirty word.
And actually, to me,dominance has always been a dirty word.
Not to me personally,but I have always recognized that certain

(42:55):
people are somewhat offended bythe thought of dominance over an animal.
And I remember actually, sometime ago,looking the word up, trying to, you know,
why do people think it's such a bad thingto have dominance over a horse?
And dominant simply means in control of.
And of course,
if you're riding a 1,000 pound animal,you do want to be in control of it.

(43:19):
I do,
so I've never
personally thought of it as a dirty word,but I see why people do it.
It connotes forcefulnessand in many aspects.
Natural horsemanship is practiced in
a very forceful way, using sticks, whips,
brown pens, pushing the horse

(43:40):
to quote unquote, gain dominance over.
so it's it'sjust a philosophical point of view
that doesn't really fly today as it did25 years ago.
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of pesteringthat goes on in that
there's nagging, nagging,all things that are just not necessary.
I get it because I can look backon my process of learning,

(44:04):
and once you got all of that stuff,you just wanted all of that.
You wanted, you required your horseto do all these things.
The looking at you this way,standing this way, picking it where
their feet are,all of those things that in the end,
the horse picking the horse to deathbecause you you learned it,
you could and you thought it was importantthat you important to you.

(44:24):
Yeah. It was and
I'd like to apologize.
I can think of many instances whereI fought for an unnecessary reason that.
Oh, yeah, you know.
Oh, yeah.
Just requiring all of those things. Wow.
That was such a profound moment earlyin my training career.
I have already told this story,but was a racehorse trainer

(44:47):
that said to me, a much biggerman than I am.
And he just cameup, poked me right in the chest
and said, don't you ever pick a fightwith one of my horses?
and in that moment,I realized how stupid it was to think
I should pick a fight with a horseand to think that I would win.
It was really stupid.
So, yeah, that mentality, tough.

(45:08):
And I'm tougher than you.
And so, I think fortunately,we're seeing that that kind of attitude,
at least as it comes to horse,is diminishing going forward.
Yeah, yeah.
Another concept that we still talkabout a lot today that kind of
went back to the very beginningsof natural horsemanship is, quote,
make the right thingeasy and the wrong thing hard, unquote.

(45:31):
Now I struggle with this onein terms of it being a negative thing,
because I know thatwhen you're training a horse
and you give him options, you say, well,okay,
well, either you could just walkquietly across the creek
and we'll go on down the trail,or we can stay on this side of the creek

(45:52):
and trot circles
right and left and right and leftand right and left, which you want to do.
And eventually the horse will chooseCross Creek.
And that's to mean example of you make the right thing
easy and the wrong thing hard,but it is a forceful technique.
And in that process, a certainnumber of people are going to cross a line

(46:14):
and they're going to say,
okay, I'm going to make the wrong thingreally hard, and then it becomes abusive.
It escalates.
Yeah, yeah, well, because the longersomething like that goes on, that's
that is a stressful situationand you're trying to win.
Yeah.
You're getting frustrated, frustrated.
Your emotions are going to come outand then becomes who's going to win this.

(46:35):
Yeah. And you get mad and I okay.
We're true confessionsI apologize to all the horses.
I have done that with them.
There have been many because you just likeI'm not I'm not going to let it go.
I'm going to win this. Yeah.
That'swhy you never pick a fight with a horse.
So that.
So the right thing.
Eating the wrong thing hard.
Although we've used it a lot.

(46:57):
And when it's done correctly,it can be quite effective.
But it's almost an invitationto fight with a horse battle.
and so I think in a
certain number of peoplethat don't know any other way,
and then they get frustrated and angry,they start lashing out at the horse.
Yeah.
So another area of natural horsemanship

(47:18):
that in my mind I never thought was good.
But we knownow, scientific research shows us,
is that there was an era in horse trainingwhere we said
repetition, repetition, repetitionthat a horse learns through repetition.
You got to do it over and overand over and over again.
Well, that's just flat. Not true.
And all of us have had the experienceof a horse

(47:39):
learning somethingthe very first time you do it with them.
So it is not the horsethat needs repetition, it's the person.
That's how we train people to ridehorses is through repetition.
But we say the horse needs it
and now we know that's not true.
But I think in my mind that was an exampleof human centric horsemanship.

(48:03):
We were sayingthe horse needs the repetition,
but in reality it was the riderthat needed the repetition.
And the horse got it the first time.
So it cloudedthe way that we trained horses
because we didn't allow horses to learn itthe first time.
We didn't acknowledgeand praise them for learning it
the first time,and then go on and do something else.
We just kept repeating it

(48:24):
until the horse became dull to it,until the horse became resentful of it.
Yeah, and I've seen a lot of thatwith groundwork in Natural Horsemanship,
where horses are pinning their ears,barring
they're agitated, wringing their tails,
they're doing all this groundworkwith a huge amount of repetition

(48:44):
for absolutely no other reasonthan to entertain.
The person is kind oflike what you were saying a minute ago.
Oh, because I can make the horsedo that now.
I want to make him do it againand again and again and again.
Don't jump to the right, jump to the left.Jump over this oak jump.
Yes, ma'am.
I think a lot of peopleto have in going off
property and going aroundgiving lessons to people's private horses.

(49:05):
And, you know, the first thing that
I start off with is, okay, well show me,let's see what your routine is.
So many people start off with this
groundwork lunging around orand this is what I do.
And then I go on the ramp and I do this.
And what's the purpose for that?
Why are you doing this?
And the same thing that horse is like,yeah, I, I go three times two

(49:25):
the days in a row,I go three times to the right and,
you know, likes the noseleft, likes the nose right.
Stand up, sit down.
Five, five, five with no purpose.
But yeah, but I will say, if you start,I've really learned that over
the years is asking peoplewhy are you doing that?
Whatever it is, whatever it might be.
just good stuff to get people thinking.

(49:46):
Do they have an answer for that? Nobody.
I mean, and I don't mean thatin an insulting way, but I think it's a
I mean, it is,I think it's like what you and I
have been talking about in this past year,so much is encouraging people
to start thinking and thinkingit themselves, being curious and wanting.
What's the outcome of this? What's.
Yeah. What's your goal? Yeah.

(50:07):
And can you look at this situationand tell me that
you're moving towards that goal right nowor moving away from that goal.
And then people say things all the timelike,
well, I've been doing all the groundworkand you go, oh, really?
The groundwork? Well, like,what do you mean by that?
Well, you know, the, the lungingand you know, they,

(50:29):
they don't really even know what, what,what groundwork is they're actually doing.
Right.
And, so that's kind of interesting.
it's a little bit of a side effect.
I think, from all that focus on thecommercial side of natural horsemanship.
Now, I want to share with yousome thoughts that came from Doctor

(50:50):
Paul McGreevy, who is a renowned
equine behaviorist in Australia.
And by the way, let me saya lot of the cutting edge research
into horse behavior and humane trainingtechniques is going on in Australia.
There's a bunch of people,they're doing really good work.

(51:10):
It's happening in the US as well.
It's just been elevated in Australiafor reasons I don't fully understand.
so a lot of what
I'm learning about reading aboutand studying is coming from research
being done in Australia, and doctorMcGreevy is in Australian behaviors.
And here I was reading,
something he had written about thissubject.

(51:34):
We're talking about abouthow natural horsemanship has affected,
the way we view horse trainingand the way we train horses.
And these are some of his thoughts onhorse whispering.
Now, you haven't seen these yet,and I'm just I'm curious to hear
what you think about.
So a all of the thingsI've already mentioned that it's
caused a greater awareness of alternativeways to view the horse.

(51:57):
It's providedsome enlightening solutions to problems
that have presented difficultyfor traditional equestrian ideology.
So in other words, instead of
just kind of throwing away quoteunquote problem horses, we try to figure
out how to work with them.
So that's a great thing because before wejust, you know, got rid of them, he says.
Sometimes the horse whispering

(52:18):
myth provides ear resistible superhuman.
Kudos to the practitioner.
That was that
was the most succinct wayI've ever heard that, long discussion.
Put it into a sentence. Yeah.
Wow. Sometimes the horsewhispering myth provides

(52:40):
irresistible superhumankudos to the practitioner.
So instead of itbeing about the horse, it's.
Well, the the Hollywood movieThe Horse Whisperer and that novel,
which was one of the best booksI ever read.
I suppose that comes a little bitfrom Hollywood.
but that's definitelyI thought that was an interesting insight.

(53:03):
He says thatone of the greatest limitations to horse
whispering is that trainingpractices are once again
locked into method
without teachingor an understanding of learning theory.
And I want to be honest,I've said all along, why hide

(53:24):
what's really happening herewith clever gimmicky
names and clubs in the stepone and all that?
Why don't we just talk aboutwhat's happening with the horse and,
you know, the actual behaviorand the actual type of training
that you're doing,
be it, you know, negative reinforcementof positive reinforcement, whatever.

(53:45):
And furthermore,he says that those methods, quote
unquote, methods have arisenfrom the historical trials
of practical horsemanship in other words,they're not really that much different
than anything we were doingbefore with horses
in in terms of itbeing somewhat forceful in nature.

(54:08):
He went on to say that the mystique
and the tremendous variety of techniquesused tend
to confound any searchfor a unifying principle.
So now let's rewind to the time in the 90s
when there were multiple

(54:30):
prominent natural horsemanshipfigures, bigger than life
figures, very mystical in their abilities.
You know,they were definitely put on a pedestal
by a lot of people,and they all use different techniques.
So they were in some waysthey were all kind of

(54:50):
doing the same thing,using the horse's natural behavior,
kind of understanding a little more depthof the horse's natural behavior.
But then in order to be commercial
and have their own gimmick,they had to make it different.
So my program's better than that programbecause I have,
you know, this kind of widgetrather than that kind of widget

(55:12):
or this kind of namerather than that clever name.
And so what doctor McGreevy is saying,I think, is that
because there was so much varietyin what everyone was doing,
there was no common unifying messagecoming out of it.
There just was a lot of confusion.
And we used to laugh,you know, back in the 90s,

(55:32):
when Twyla and I were training horseshere at the ranch, you know,
that was almost all we were doingwas training horses.
And a lot of trainers would jokeabout getting these horses in training
that had been put through
one of those programs,but had come out on the other end messed
up, you know, head shotor really mad or agitated or whatever.

(55:54):
There was a lot of fixingof those problems.
So, and unfortunately and most of thatbecause it was being done poorly,
but it had grown,it had caught on like wildfire.
Just so many people were doing itand not all of them were actually getting
proper instruction, and not all of themwere doing it correctly.
So you'd end up with horseswith, that had kind of gone

(56:17):
through some trauma and all in the nameof natural horsemanship.
And then the other pointthat doctor McGreevy makes,
which I think is a really interesting,is that really horse
whisperer is rifewith anthropomorphic explanations
about how horses understand us and oblige

(56:38):
us, and it mystifies the training process
and implies that noncompliant horsesare somehow malevolent.
And so I believe that his point is, isif you say,
I've now won this horse overso that he respects me
and he looks up to me and hehe understands what I'm asking of him,

(57:02):
and he's all in on my teambecause I'm a great person.
Then the other side of that isif you can't get a horse
to cooperate with you in that way,it's a bad horse.
And I've seen that.
In fact, I've seen it in the moviewhere people say,
or some of these big prominentfigures have said,

(57:24):
you know, basically,if I can't train the horse, no one can.
So if I can't make this horseunderstand me
and do my bidding the way I want him to doit, then he's a bad horse.
And that's just wrong.
The labeling of the horse,which is a horse.
Yeah.
And you're and you're trainingin a way that doesn't work for him.

(57:44):
And he's nothing wrong with that horsewhen you're not on the scene.
Right, right, right.
That that falls intowhat we're talking about nowadays too, is,
is that as it's not a blanketone way you buy this,
this, this halter,this stick the round pin the flag.
Not every horsehas to go through those steps.

(58:05):
And that's the only thing you've got then.
I remember about 20 years agogetting a question was
does every horse need groundwork.
And then I rememberat that time I had Dooley, a horse
that was just so well trained.
A horse couldn't have been more trained.
This horse
and I, I imagined
that people probably thoughtI did all that groundwork with him

(58:28):
every day when I, you know, after time,didn't even put a halt on him in.
But, you know, I mean, the answer tothe question was basically, no,
absolutely not.
Because if you've got everything you needand want from the horse,
why are you going out theregoing through all those machinations
of making them do thisand making them do that?
And I'll and which

(58:50):
in many ways becomesdemeaning to the horse
to go out there every dayand go through these gyrations
that have no meaning or purposeto him, that he's done a thousand times,
and he could do it with his earsshut and his eyes closed.
And that's actually what happensis he just starts tuning it out,
going through the motionslike a prisoner march and into the,

(59:11):
you know, recreational hall every day.
And he's not learning and thrivingor enjoying or engaging
or interacting with you.
He's just becomea, you know, robot, basically.
Another thing that doctor McGreevy felt,
well, just one of his reflections on horsewhispering

(59:31):
was that like many other
previous techniques for training horses,it had some familiar pitfalls,
like too many signalsgiven concurrently different signals
for a single responseand lengthy delays and reinforcement.
So these are all thingsthat every single day

(59:51):
I teach at clinic,I try to teach people not to do.
And these are things that every day Iteach at clinic, I see most riders doing.
They're kicking the horse to go andpulling them in the show at the same time.
We talk about horses being trappedbetween the stop and go cue.
Whoa is a good example. We teach.
We teach a horse, a woke or stop cue,

(01:00:13):
and then we use it when we're afraidand we don't really mean stop.
You know, slowing down. Yeah.
Or use it for slowing down, you know,so it really can only mean one thing.
And you can't, you know,you can't make it mean multiple things
because that's just going tobring confusion to the horse.
And then lengthy delays and reinforcement.
whether that is a positive reinforcementor a negative reinforcement,

(01:00:37):
whether it is the addition of somethingor the taking away of something,
if the horse gives the responsebut you don't give him the release,
he can't learn from that.
It's just becomes frustrating to him.
So and that's a personthat gives a horse a cue
and then like,I think he's going to do it.
I want him to do it. I hope he does it.
Come on horse, come on and the momentfor reinforcement is long past.

(01:01:02):
So when you do reinforce that cue,
finally, it's like out of the blueyou spank the horse.
He has no way of associating itwith the original cue.
So you've just done more to confuse him.
These are the things I really
focus on a lot in my teaching, but again,that's a very succinct way of putting it.

(01:01:22):
coming from doctor McGreevy.
So and then we've already talkedabout the round pen issue, but,
you know, doctor McGreevy says,putting a horse in a round pen
requires an understanding of the flightzone of the animal.
Furthermore, he says tame animalshave a flight distance of zero.
Horsesare acutely aware of their flight zone.

(01:01:46):
And when it's reached, they move away.
So in the round pen,
the horse will eventually startmoving away from you,
especially when the trainer retreatsfrom the flight zone.
And so, you know,I think, I've read some other stuff
by doctor McGreevy as he'stalking about around pitting and I,

(01:02:07):
I think his one of his points is that
if we're working a horse in the round penwaiting for that elusive,
mystical moment of join upso the horse quits running away from
you and comes to you
that maybe the horse has just figured outhe can't get away from you.
So he's looking for a different solutionof how
he's going to get out of this round pen.
Yeah, or how many times the horse turns

(01:02:30):
in, oh, he's come into the Middle East,come into me,
and you can just see thathorse is looking right.
That's that person.
Is that way.
And I heard it outpast him on the other side.
okay.
So so we've established that,you know, Horseman
Natural Horsemanshipcame on the scene in the 80s.

(01:02:50):
well, I, you know, started way back when,but it became,
you know, hisheyday was probably in the 80s and 90s.
I would say we'd been kind of on thedecline of that era, for a few years now.
And there has been both great good and,
and then some interesting challengesthat have come out of all of that.

(01:03:10):
Now, hindsight is always 2020.
So, you know, at the time we thoughtit was the best thing since sliced bread.
Now that we know a little bit more,we understand
horses and people a little bit better.
we can look back on it and say, you know,probably wasn't all good
and there's probably still some thingswe can do better.
But one thing that happenedthen was, remember,

(01:03:32):
I talked about all of that over breedingthat was going on in the 50s and 60s.
There was a lotof just discarding of horses.
So when horses didn'tmeet the needs of people, they would just,
you know, be taken to auction and often
times, horsesand would end up in a slaughter house.

(01:03:56):
And during that timewhen natural horsemanship was becoming
so popular, we were also slaughteringover 100,000 horses a year.
and that was in part
because of the huge amount ofindiscriminate breeding that was going on.
It was in part because it was a throw away

(01:04:17):
mentally, and that was an easy solution.
Just haul the horses to the sale barn,get your $300 and be done with it.
Whether it was an old horse, lame horseor a horse
that was failing to performto the expectations of the owner.
So the anti slaughter laws were created.

(01:04:38):
I don't believe that was in the early 90s.
I can't remember for sure,but it happened fast
and not all of these statistics are superwell known.
But at the time the anti slaughterfederal legislation happened,
some guesstimates were thatwe were slaughtering about 150,000 horses
a year, and we went from that

(01:05:00):
to zero in just a couple of years.
And that was the dawn of a whole new dark
era for horsescalled the era of the Unwanted Horse.
It was a disastrous time for horses,
and it was really the perfect storm
of over breeding meets.
The banning of horseslaughter meets the Great Recession.

(01:05:26):
and, you know, people
during the Great Recession of 2008, 2009,
people were losing their jobs,losing their homes.
horses were coming in to rescue situations
that were being starved, neglected.

(01:05:47):
all all because people just couldn'tafford them anymore.
And there was no, there were you couldcould no longer take them to the sale
barn and get your $300 and be out of it.
there wasn't a solution.
And horses pay the price for that.
lack of foresight
that we had by drasticallychanging the laws

(01:06:08):
without creating a social safety netfor these horses.
It ironically was done to help horses,
but for a quite a number of years,it had a really negative effect on horses
because they were now beingneglected and starved and,
and they

(01:06:29):
were still being slaughteredin great numbers.
Just they were being hauledover the border in inhumane conditions
in order to meet that slop,which was even worse.
Yeah.
Which was because now that we had no sale,no regulations.
Right.
So it was a really bad era for horses.

(01:06:49):
and by the way, during that time
we went from about 9 million
to 7 million horses in this country alone.
So we lost 2million horses during that time.
And, which,
you know, was for good or bad,it was sort of a rectifying

(01:07:11):
of the populationand a rectifying of the overpopulation.
but ultimately some good came out of it.
So the first thing that happened wasthere was a coalition formed
of concerned entities in the horseindustry.
It was calledthe Unwanted Horse Coalition.

(01:07:32):
I have some good friendsthat were actively involved
in that initial movement.
And it was, organizations
every actually the Professional Rodeo
CowboysAssociation, most large registries,
the AARP,

(01:07:53):
all of the significant organizations
banded together and said, hey,we gotta help horses here.
This isn't working out so good for horses.
you politicians passed this law,
and, which, by the way, was called the,
something about human consumptionbanning horses

(01:08:13):
for slaughter, for human consumptionwhen that was,
actuallynot ever really happening in the country.
But it sounded good and it passed.
And, so,
you know, in, in the, in the doing
of something of this legislation
that a certain number of peoplethought was doing good for horses,

(01:08:36):
those of us on the front line saw
that it was actually putting,more horses at risk.
It was causing more abuse of this.
And, and,more inhumane treatment of horses.
So the unwanted horsecoalition was formed to,
address that need
and, and say, hey, people,we got to do something about this.

(01:08:57):
You can't just change the lawand then let all of these horses suffer.
So, from
then to now,there has been tremendous work done
by many individualsand many large equine organizations,
as well as the commercial,commercial horse industry at large,
to try to get a better handle onwhat's going on with, horses

(01:09:20):
that are at riskand how to, do better by them.
So in 2016,
the Right Horse Initiative began,
and I would call that a,
evolution of the Unwanted Horse coalition,because one of the missions,
by the way, the Right Horse Initiativewas initially entirely privately funded.

(01:09:45):
and there was a recognitionby the Watershed Foundation
that while there, therethere was a lot of really good work
being done in at risk dog populations
and at risk catpopulations that there was,
a great
need in the at risk horse population.

(01:10:07):
And they also recognized at the same time
that while there were many small,
fractured organizationsthat were popping up everywhere
and they were calling them horse rescues,
that nobody was supportingthese organizations,
there was no cohesiveness to thisor these organizations, no regulation.

(01:10:31):
and mainly no support system for these,people that were doing the good work
of helping all of these horsesthat we had put at risk.
And, so they wanted to intentionallychange
the narrative from unwanted horseto the right horse.
That's why it became knownas the Right Horse Initiative.

(01:10:51):
and, they've done some amazing work today.
The Right HorseInitiative is a program of the ASPCA,
and it is really elevated horse welfare
by bringing some national cohesivenessto the efforts.
they've created some amazingsupport systems for rescue operations,
for rehoming programs, for there'sthey've kind of got this Underground

(01:11:15):
Railroad transportation systemto move these horses around
where there are moreadopters available for them.
so, it and they've really,
worked hard to bring awarenessto this population of horses
that are at riskand how horses become at risk.

(01:11:37):
and they have, worked hard to educate
people about horse welfare so that,
you know, that whole unwanted
horse era, although it wasterribly unfortunate for horses,
it did really kind of create a paradigmshift

(01:11:57):
to today,
where we areway more focused on the horse.
It's welfare, and it's need,
even often above human need.
And, and that's really,
I think probably for the trulyfor the first time

(01:12:20):
in the history of horses and humans,
that paradigm shift has occurred to where
in some circles, anyway,there is a greater concern
about the welfare of the horsethan of the benefit to the human.
And so there are many people out therethat would argue that we shouldn't

(01:12:42):
be riding horses, that we shouldn'tbe using horses and entertainment,
that we should not confine horsesin stalls and stuff like that.
And honestly,I hear their points, I really do.
I, I also recognizeI do love the sport of riding.
I do love to ride horses.
I do love to interact with horses.

(01:13:04):
And, and I do
I recognize thatI do that for my own personal pleasure.
and I appreciate the horses for it.
And, so I think that,
that's kind of brings us up to today and,
you know, of course,a lot of this came from

(01:13:25):
growing pressure over the decades,
from animal rights activism,
both within the horse industry
and outside the horse industry.
Also, there's been a greater awareness
of nature, of the environment.
You know, I'm in by nature.
I mean kind of getting back to nature,you know,

(01:13:48):
you know, how there's sort of beenthis secondary movement
and even even more so since the pandemic,of people wanting to get back to nature,
get back to a rural lifestyle or whateverand get their hands dirty,
much greater focus on the environment,much greater focus on animal cruelty
that it exists and that it it is wrong

(01:14:12):
and that animals should be protected.
We also saw, have seen
a change in lifestyle.
So more awareness towards vegetarianism
and that sort of led to a vegan movement.
And we have even seen that

(01:14:33):
carry into horse sports where,
you know, it becomes questionable
if you're, you know,truly vegan in your philosophy.
You might not believe it'sokay to ride horses. And,
so that's that all of these are pressures
and, and and changes and broadersocietal views

(01:14:57):
that have slowly infiltratedthe horse industry.
We are a part of society. So,
you know, as society changes,
it's going to have an impact on the horseindustry.
It we are off and drug slowly andscratching and yell and screaming into it.
But it has cost its influence. So

(01:15:21):
also during this time,
you know, evenjust in the last 10 or 15 years,
there really has been a tremendousincrease in the scientific
researchinto equine behavior, equine genetics,
our understanding of equine cognition,how horses learned.
So there really is a lot more peer

(01:15:44):
reviewed, scientifically researchedinformation out there and available to us.
Now, we as horse owners are not very quickon the uptake on this kind of stuff.
We tend to fall back on doing itthe way our father did it,
or the way we were taught to do itwhen we were a teenager or whatever.
Tradition, tradition, traditionhas been really taught.

(01:16:05):
We've always doneit hard to overcome in this business.
But now I would saywe are in a new perfect storm for horses.
But this is going to be a good storm.
we have a strong and stable horseindustry.
The population of horses in
this country is stable and growing.

(01:16:27):
not, the stable and getting smaller.
we have created
a strong social safety net for horses.
There are,
rescues, rehoming
programs, educational programs,
funding, all kinds of stuff that wasn'tthere before, unifying efforts,

(01:16:51):
even globally in this regard,some of this stuff is more specific
to the United States because of certainlegislative things that happened. But,
and also we have,
this global scientific researchinto behavior training. So
in my mind
today, we are on

(01:17:13):
the precipiceof a brand new revolution of horsemanship.
And when I was telling my husbandabout this episode, he said, well, what
what do they call it?
And we said that the both of us,I remember
we said,
I don't think it has a name yet.
And he's like, how can it be a thingif it doesn't have a name?

(01:17:35):
And I said, well,because it's not really a thing yet.
We just think it's going to be a thing.
We want it to be a thing.
We want it to be a thing.
But no, it actually really is a thing.
It's just that it's it'snot widely known and
and as I mentioned before, in Australia,
a lot of work is being doneon this kind of research.

(01:17:57):
And, they are calling it learning theoryas it applies to horses.
You know, I really think this isa fascinating subject.
And as you said, t
you and I and Lucy, we
we love to talk about this stuffall the time, just just kind of furthering
our understanding,furthering our philosophy

(01:18:19):
and furthering our ability to teach peopleand help horses, do things better.
And, you know, I hope you guys
listening are enjoying this topicas much as we are.
It's a really big subject,and it's probably
too much for one podcast,so I hope you'll join us for part

(01:18:39):
two of this discussionon the new era of horsemanship
that we're ushering in today,where we'll dig deeper into science
based horsemanshipand where it will lead us in the future.
And now it's time for my favorite segment.

(01:19:02):
What?
hey, Q&A.
So each month,we pick a few unique questions
from our listenersand answer them on the air.
If you'd like to submit a questionfor what the hey, just message me
on Facebook actually good nightor email podcast at Julie good night.com.

(01:19:23):
This question comes from Judy.
I have a nine yearold mare and a few years back
she would load into my three horse trailerjust fine.
But all of the sudden last yearshe started barking.
When I asked her to loadand if and when I got her in the trailer,
she was very antsy and moving all around.

(01:19:44):
By the time I got to my destination,she was a nervous wreck.
I usually ride alone and I'm reallygetting discouraged about going anywhere
when I can't be sure if I'll be ableto get her to load to go home.
I've had her for almost eight yearsand we have had a good bond.
I've heard several opinionson how to help my horse and her anxiety

(01:20:06):
with trailer loading,
but I'm still at a lossas to why she started barking to load.
She seems to like going placesand is very attentive
when she sees me hooking up the trailer,even snickering.
So why is she reluctant to load?
Well, Judy, I you know,
the short answer is, I don't know.

(01:20:27):
I can tell youthere's a few things I would think about.
first of all, I just want to go backto your last statement.
she seems to like going placesand is very attentive
when she sees me hooking up the trailer,even snickering.
so why is she reluctant to load in?
you know, not to single you out,but that's a perfect example of what

(01:20:51):
we were just talking aboutin terms of instilling
characteristics in a horsethey're not really capable of.
So when you say,
she seems to like going places,
I, you know,I think we have this overwhelming tendency
to interpret behaviorto be what we want it to be.

(01:21:13):
And so when a horse seems alert andexcited, we think he's happy.
all horseseverywhere tend to get very attentive
when horse trailers are being hooked upor coming or leaving.
You know why?
Because they associate them with trauma.
They associate them with separation.

(01:21:34):
They associate them with the excitementof a new horse arriving in the herd.
So horses everywhere,
show these kinds of behaviors
or attentiveness towards trailers, but
it has nothing to do with them liking itor wanting to get in the trailer.
In fact, it probably is more likelyto be the opposite where it is

(01:21:57):
stress inducing to thembecause they have associated
the movement of trailers with either themcoming or going and being separated
from their herd, or another horseleaving or another horse coming.
So that's all kindof scary stuff to a horse.
now this, this idea that, you know, horses

(01:22:18):
that have loaded flawlessly for yearssuddenly won't load.
I will tell you, it's super common.
It happens to a lot of peoplethat trailer their horses a lot.
Not all horses,
will do this,but some horses will just one day
question whether or notthey have to get in the trailer.

(01:22:39):
so generally,if we work through those moments
of resistance in a clear,
but, persistent way in others,
we don't make a big fuss about it, but we,No, no, we're going in the trailer.
Let's, you know, we're going to do itjust the way you've been doing it before.
but, so, you know, sometimes

(01:23:01):
we have to take a step backwith these horses and kind of,
re initiate the trailer loading process.
Of course. I have a video on this subject.
It's a pretty comprehensive videoon trailering horses.
and loading is just one aspect of it.
I'm a big proponentof first teaching a horse to load,

(01:23:22):
and then feeding, in the trailerso it becomes a happy place to the horse.
He makes a happy associationwith the trailer by eating in there.
but here's a big red flag to me.
Whenever a horse, a trained horse
that's been performing flawlessly,
is suddenly not performing flawlessor is not,

(01:23:46):
performing flawlessly,or is not performing at all,
that's a real big,big red flag for a physical problem.
Now, if your horse has to step upto a trailer,
or sometimes even just walking up a ramp
could be an indicationthat there's pain somewhere.
And that horse knows that eitherwhen they step up or step

(01:24:08):
down, it's going to hurt.
one thing I started to notice with,
some of our performance horsesthat we came
to realize had jointsoreness is they would often
hop on the trailer,not step up on the trailer.
so I, I watch how they load.

(01:24:28):
for that reason,it gives me an indication of there
might be some sortjoint soreness starting somewhere.
So I would first and foremost considerthat there might be
a physical problemor some kind of fear based problem.
I would look for solutions.
maybe letting her ride

(01:24:48):
with a companion horse,
going back and doing, some,
some more basic trainingor some more basic groundwork, but
but for sure, you want to rule out the,any kind of pain response.
So, you might want to consider,
a vet exam to,
to check for any lineman's lamenessor soreness in that horse.

(01:25:12):
And then,
if you've ruled out all of that,I think we have to go back to training
and, just lay a better foundationon this horse.
So if you need some help on that,you might want to consult
on my video,which is called Stress free trailering.
So good luck with that.

(01:25:34):
This question is from Susie,
my friends Susie,and she says, and I am just kind of,
imagining her smart aleck tone
and being embedded in this question.
She says if stirrups are problematicwhen bareback riding
because there's no treeto support the forces at play,

(01:25:57):
then would the same apply to treelesssaddles?
Well, I can tell you,
Susie, yes is the answer to that question.
The same thing does apply to treelesssaddles.
Now, so just
just to illuminate this whole thing
when you're using a bear,a bareback pad on a horse

(01:26:18):
should never have stirrups attached to it,
because if the rider putsthe feet in the stir up
and then the pad slips, your feetare not going to come out of the stirrup
and the pads are going to slip all the wayunderneath the horse.
So it's extremely dangerous.
But that same bareback pad withno stirrups on it makes for a great ride.

(01:26:40):
So Susie's point is, well then whyisn't the same true for treeless saddles?
And in fact,it is true for Treeless saddles? Now,
most treeless saddles
are designed to have a little bitmore support than a bare back pad.
Would.
They are designed in in ways that give it
a little rigidity at the withers,

(01:27:02):
to keep it from rolling side to side.
But one of the things that we caution
people about in terms of treelesssaddles is you.
You might want to questionusing one on a horse that's super round,
and for a riderthat gets easily out of balance.
So for the same reasonsthat we don't put stirrups on bareback

(01:27:26):
pads, you want to, just, just think twice
before putting a beginner rider
on a trellis saddle on a horse
that's shaped like a 55 gallon barrel,because it's probably going to slip.
And this question is from Joanne.

(01:27:47):
She says, hi, Julie,I live in Chaffee County, Colorado,
and I would like your thoughts onkeeping my horse barefoot year round.
I ride trails in this areawhich seem rocky.
I do plan on getting her bootsfor her front feet,
but in your opinion, can a horse ridethese kind of trails barefoot?

(01:28:08):
Thank you for giving me advice on this.
Well hi Joanne, I live in Chaffee County,Colorado too.
We live in, one of the most
beautiful partof the mountains of Colorado,
and I like to tell peoplethat there's a reason
why they call it the Rocky Mountains.
There are rocks everywhere.

(01:28:29):
We grow rocks.
There are few, if any, trails
that you can ride in the mountains here
that don't involve a lot of rock, gravel,
solid rock, rolling rocks, boulders.
It's the Rocky Mountains.
And, you know, just a little aside, is

(01:28:52):
scientific research has shown usthat horses in the Rocky Mountains
have the healthiest feet of horsesalmost anywhere on Earth.
And from that study, they postulate
that it is actually the walking on rocksthat makes the horses feet so strong.

(01:29:13):
And by the way, I have, had a few horsescome here from the state of Florida,
and I grew up in the state of Florida,
where I can tell youhorses have rotten feet.
I mean, you just constantly are fightingrotten
shelly, thin walled feet.
Well, they're on sand all the time,and those feet are wet all the time.

(01:29:36):
And these things contribute to a weak hoofwall.
Whereas walking and standing and grazing
and exercising on hard, rocky ground
makes the horsehoof wall grow stronger over time.
It doesn't happen overnight.
fact can take about a year to happen. So,

(01:29:59):
that's a
good thing about horsesthat live in this environment.
They have very strong, tough feet.
However, horse's feet were not designed
to carry them through places
they don't have a choice over, goingwith an extra 200 pounds on their back.
So between the added weight of the riderand all the gear and between,

(01:30:25):
the fact that you are directing the horse
to travel in terrainthat he wouldn't voluntarily travel in.
In other words,he might pick a softer route
or he might not go there at all.
And he certainly wouldn't go thereif his feet were sore.
but it's it'sthe combination of those two things

(01:30:46):
that are awfully hard on a horse's feetwhen we ride him in the mountains.
Now, when I read this question to myself
before we started, I laughingly said,
can you ride a horse barefootin these mountains?
Yeah, but only once.
That's it takes about thatlong to make them so footsore.

(01:31:06):
They're never going to want to do itagain.
So absolutely.
If you want to leave your horse barefoot,you absolutely
must get a high qualitypair of hoof boots.
make sure you get a bootthat fits your horse.
Well, that's not going to be chafing.
That's not going to get gravel stuckbetween, his the bulbs of his heel

(01:31:29):
and the and the foot, and the boot,
make sure it's not going to be coming offat the worst possible moment.
so make
sure you get a high quality bootand that is well fitted
and that it's going to go onall four feet of the horse. Yes,
the front feet are more weight bearing,but they push off with the hind feet.

(01:31:50):
The front feet will always get sore first,but the hind feet will follow.
So if, you know, I wasI was telling someone the other day that,
back when we used to board horses,I used to get so frustrated
with people who they would choose to leavetheir horses barefoot, which is great.
We know that's healthierfor the horse's hoof,

(01:32:11):
but then don't take him upin the mountains barefoot because.
And they'd say, oh, my horse doesfine in the mountains barefoot.
And I would say, yeah, that'sbecause you weren't here the next day.
You did not see the horse.
The next day I did, and he washe was far from comfortable.
He was very sore and all four feet.
And, it takes 2 or 3 daysfor that foot soreness to subside.

(01:32:35):
So by the time the the rider comesto ride him again, the horse is fine.
So they don't they weren't actuallyseeing, the soreness they were causing.
So there's absolutely nothing wrongwith with keeping your horse barefoot.
We know beyond a shadow of a doubtis healthier
for the hoof of the horsewhen the horse is allowed to go barefoot.

(01:32:56):
But if you intend to force the horseto travel in extremely rocky terrain
with an extra 200 pounds on its back,you need to protect its feet.
Either with old school shoes or with,
hoof boots that are secure and safeand comfortable for your horse.
So good luck!I hope to see you on the trails out there.

(01:33:25):
Well, that's all we have time for today.
I want to say thanks to Codyfor joining me in this great discussion.
And thanks to all of youfor listening as well.
Remember to subscribeso you don't miss any episodes.
And of course, share a rideon with all of your friends.
If you have a horse training questionor an issue you'd like me to talk about,

(01:33:48):
please message me on Facebook at JulieGoodnight or email podcast at Julie.
Good night.com ride on with Julie.
Good night is availablewherever you listen to podcasts,
and if you like this show, rememberto give it a five star rating
and leave a review.
It means a lot to meand it helps more horse

(01:34:08):
lovers like you and me find this podcast.
Follow me on Facebook, Instagramand YouTube at Julie.
Good night!
To get even more training,
advice and updatesand head on over to Academy Dot Julie.
Good night A.comfor tons of free training resources
plus memberships and onlinecoaching from me.

(01:34:29):
No matter where you arein your horsemanship journey,
whether you're new to horsesor an old hand,
whether you're training a green horseor refining your upper level skills,
I hope you found some helpful informationhere today
to make your horse life better.
I'm Julie goodnight.
Thank you for listeningand please stay safe and enjoy the ride.

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