A New Era of Horsemanship: Part 2

This is part two of last month’s episode about the new era of horsemanship. (If you haven’t already, be sure to listen to part one from last month!) In this month’s episode, we’ll continue our conversation about science-based, non-forceful training methods, busting old mythology, and changing narratives around the way we talk about horses. I’ll leave you with the 10 principles of horse training, as stated by equine behaviorists, that give us important guidelines to follow when we’re working with horses.

 

In my new segment. Long Story Short, I'll tell you about taking my son on his very first trail ride—and the terrifying moment I had in the middle of it. And in What the Hay? Q&A at the end of the episode, I’ll answer questions from listeners about a Standardbred with an out-of-character behavior in his stall, and a mom who is unsure about letting her daughter join her school’s equestrian team after witnessing training methods that troubled her.

 

Want your question answered in What the Hay? Email [e-mail]

 

Show Notes & Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

“A Horse by Nature: Managing Emotional and Mental Stress in Horses for Improved Welfare” by Mary Ann Simonds: https://maryannsimonds.com

Equine Science Society: https://www.equinescience.org 

Troxel Helmets for Kids: https://www.troxelhelmets.com/collections/kids (Use code GOODNIGHT at checkout to get 15% Off!)

Julie’s upcoming events: Juliegoodnight.com/events

Online coaching, memberships, and short courses: JulieGoodnight.com/join

Go to Juliegoodnight.com/news to sign up for Julie’s newsletter

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
You're an inspiration.
You were there to help me.
You just saw the need and said,can I help you?
We learn a lot from watching other horses
and watching other riders.
I'm Julie, good night,
and thank you for listening to my podcastabout horse training, equestrian sports

(00:24):
and building a better connectionwith your horse.
It's time for Ride On with Julie.
Good night.
Back at the ranch.
Well, everyone around hereis just waiting on pins and needles
for the birth of Annie's foal.
As most of youprobably already know by now,

(00:45):
if you've been following my blogor podcast or any of that stuff.
it's been quite a saga for the last year.
I bred Annie last summer.
it's been a topsyturvy up and down thing,
but she's at this point,had a really healthy pregnancy.
And as I sit hererecording this on May 13th,

(01:08):
Annie is already five dayspast her due date.
chances are goodthat by the time you're hearing
this, it's going to be old news,and she will have already fold.
and hopefully it's going to be good news.
But right now, we're all eagerly
awaiting, something to happen here.

(01:30):
She, is taking her time,
and everyone around here is really eagerto know when she's going to fall.
wouldn't that be convenient?
Nobody wants to be, have to delaytheir plans or put off going somewhere.
but they definitely want to be herewhen she's going to foal,

(01:50):
and they think I havesome kind of magic formula
that can tell themexactly when that is. But
I've pulled out a lot of mares in my life,
so I know what the signs are to watch for,
but there's not much I can say otherthan it isn't going to happen tonight.
So my guess best guess is
that we're still 4or 5 days away from her foaling.

(02:13):
and I hope something happens soon.
So stay tuned to my socialsand you'll be the first to know
when she does foal.
I recently finished my last event
before my summer break,and it was the Women's
Riding and Wholenessretreat at the Sea Lady U ranch.
This is a program that I co-teachwith my good friend Barbara Sheltie.

(02:37):
we had a group of 40 fabulous women.
Everyone was a joy to be with.
The scenery was spectacular.
The luxurious accommodationsand the gourmet food were wonderful.
But frankly, the weather sucked.
It snowed every day.
but, you know, with a heated indoor

(02:57):
arena, plenty of fireplaces,and cozy comforts of home, we
we still managed to have a really fabuloustime, even even in that bad weather.
And, for my summer break,I'm looking forward
to another epic boating trip this year.
We'll be taking our boat all the wayfrom Pensacola, Florida, where it is now

(03:18):
across the Gulf of Mexicoto the Tampa Bay area.
Then we'll go across the state of Florida,across
Lake Okeechobee to the East coast,and then,
up the Atlanticto the northeast coast of Florida.
It's a little over a thousand miles,a little under a thousand miles, actually,

(03:38):
probably going to be about 10 to 12 daysof cruising on our boat.
And once we allow for, you know,some bad weather days and some rest
days, it'll probably take us 3 or 4 weeks,to make the whole trip.
So it's sure to be an exciting adventure.
And, you know, weirdly, I'm, both

(03:59):
eager for itand anxious about it all at the same time.
So after
the summer, after the trip, I'll be homeand spending some quality
time around the ranch here with the horsesand the young foal.
And, then this fall, I've got some more great
programs planned at the close of YearRanch.

(04:20):
I'll also be in college Station,
Texas, for the international conference.
It's being held this year at TexasA&M University at their equine program.
So that should be a lot of fun.
You can head on over to Julie.
Good night.com/events to get moreinformation on all of my upcoming events.

(04:42):
And be the first to know about new events
when you sign upfor my weekly newsletter at Julie.
Good night.
Com slash news.
You'll also get brand new trainingarticles and podcast episodes
as soon as they dropsome exclusive deals and updates from me.
You can also find me on Facebook,Instagram and YouTube at Julie.

(05:04):
Good night!
This episode of the podcastis actually part
two of The New ERA of Horsemanship.
If you haven't already,
I would encourage you to go backand listen to the previous episode
when my good friendand assistant trainer, T
Cody, and I discuss the historyof modern horsemanship,

(05:26):
how the recreational horse scene was born,and then flourished.
And we also discussed the impacts,both good
and bad, of natural horsemanship.
In part two today,
we'll continue our conversationabout science based
non forceful training methodsabout busting

(05:48):
some of the old traditional mythology
that exists in an old schoolhorsemanship.
And we'll talk aboutchanging the narratives
around the way we talk about horses.
Finally, I'll leave youwith the ten principles of horse training,
as stated by equine behaviorists.
And these give us important guidelinesto follow when we're working with horses.

(06:12):
Also in my
What the Hay Q&A at the end of thisepisode,
I'll answer questions from listenersabout a Standardbred
with an out of character behaviorin a stall, and a mother
who is unsure about letting her daughterjoin her school's equestrian team.
After witnessing training methodsthat troubled her.

(06:34):
So be sure to stick around for that.
Before we dive into today's topic.
Let's kick off things with my new segment.
Long story short,
I'll tell you a story from the early daysof my horse training career.
Funny or amusing,exciting or inspirational,
all have hard won lessonsI carry with me to this day.

(06:57):
I hope to inspire and entertain you
by sharing my real life experiences,even the hard ones.
So maybe you won'thave to learn the hard way.
When my son was born back in 1987,
I was in my late 20sand I was already in business for myself.

(07:21):
I was the operator of a full serviceboarding and training facility
in the Colorado mountains,and we also offered guided trail rides,
and I therefore kept a small string
of dude horsesthat we rented to the public.
Like most horse owning young parents,

(07:41):
I was also desperate for my son
to love horses as much as I did,and I had these wild fantasies of him
being an Olympic riderand a great horse trainer,
and he would work alongside me and,you know how that goes.

(08:02):
you know,we were passionate about our horses,
and we want to share thatwith our children or grandchildren.
So toward that end, I had acquired
a cute little pony, super nice pony.
It was a Welsh Shetland cross.
It was a medium sized pony,and it was dapple gray.

(08:24):
And just as cute as a pony could be.
And its name was surprise.
Now surprise came by that name,honestly, because, he,
he had all kinds of little,snotty pony tricks up his sleeve.
But as long as the long
arm of the law was within reach,

(08:45):
in other words, an adult,he was a perfect child's pony.
Couldn'tbe better left to his own devices.
However, he would pullsome shenanigans on the kids.
So we had this great little pony.
He was trustworthy and safe,and my son loved surprise.
From the time he was just a year old,he was allowed to go pet the pony,

(09:07):
and later he could brush the ponyand lead him around.
He eventually loved to clean his feet out
and it was greathaving a sort of right sized
horse for my son when when he was little,because that's what kids like to do.
They like to do the same stuffyou're doing with the horse,

(09:28):
whether that's leading it aroundor cleaning out its feet.
And obviously for a small,very small child to do that
with a big, giant thousand pound horses,it's going to be challenging at best.
So the pony was the right size,and as long as
he was being supervised,that pony was really solid and safe.

(09:48):
So as
he was a toddler,then two three years old, we started
propping him up on the saddled pony,leading him around the barnyard
so he could startgetting a feel for riding.
And of course, like most little kids,he took right to it.
Naturally.
Children, little tiny children that age,they just have a natural balance,

(10:10):
and they're so relaxed that they justautomatically move with the horse.
And they also are just unbelieve,wobbly, blissful.
When they're on a horse.
They they laugh, they sing, they smile.
You know, they just, horses reallybring something out in little kids.
So it was so much fun to lead them around.

(10:33):
We had a little pony saddle and,you know,
he could hold on to the hornand the stirrups fit him well. And.
But keep in mind,this was a little more than 35 years ago.
And back then,we did not have the same level
of safety equipment that we have today.
for instance, there were no certifiedriding helmets for very little children.

(10:57):
In fact, the common wisdom of the day
was that the younger a child is,the heavier
their head is in proportionto the rest of their body.
And that is true.
And also that
the weaker their neckis to properly support that head.
This kind of the same reasonwhy you have to,
you know, support the head of an infantand so the common wisdom of that day was

(11:22):
we can't put riding helmets
on those little tiny peoplebecause the riding helmets
were too bulky and heavy,and they they actually couldn't
really support the weight of that helmet, properly.
So it, it was more or less determined

(11:42):
that it was actually safer to,
not use a helmet than to use one. Now,
the safest thing,of course, would be not to not put
that little kid up on a horse, but,there's kind of,
I guess an assumptionthat some of us crazy
young parents are just going to do itanyway, like I did,

(12:04):
and it's just becausewe can't help ourselves.
So back then, there was no helmetthat you could put on a toddler.
So good news todayis that's not no longer true.
we have some incredible optionsin lightweight,
ASTM, PSI certified equestrian helmets

(12:25):
for the smallest of childrenthat are available on the market now.
But we didn't have thatthen back in the 80s,
we did not have those kinds of options,but I was still very focused on safety.
I was raised in a horse family,and my father
had a huge focus,always on safety around horses.
So I always madesure the pony was being led

(12:49):
and the saddle and the stirrups fit right.
but I was always close.
Close by to supervise.
Have at least one hand on the child,that kind of thing.
We always stayedwithin the confines of the barnyard,
but eventually there came a time
when we thought Hunter was readyto go on his first trail ride.

(13:10):
And, looking back on itnow, I realize what was I thinking?
And why was I in such a big hurry?
Because he was really quite young.
It was just,you know, 2 or 3 years old, maybe three.
I had a very matureand responsible teenager,
and she was working for me back then.

(13:31):
And she would saddle horses and guidetrail rides and help out around the barn.
She was very responsible,very good with horses.
She was also very helpfulin watching Hunter.
And while I rode the training horsesand dealt with the clients, she was often,
you know, dealing with Hunter and keepinghim out of trouble around the barnyard.

(13:52):
And together,
Melissa and I concocted a plan
to take Hunter outon his first trail ride.
It would be a very short ride,like 15 or 20 minutes
in the wooded area around the barn,
and Melissa and I went over every detail.

(14:15):
We were going to leave nothing to chance,so we talked it through.
We decided what horseswe were going to use.
We wanted to make sure we were doing itsafely and conscientiously,
so our plan was that we would saddle
two reliable trail horses, plus the pony.
Melissa would ride in frontleading the pony that Hunter was riding.

(14:38):
I would ride directly behind Hunter
with my mother, bare eagle
eyes on him at every momentso that I could see
what was going on, and I could talk to himand give him directions if needed.
Not that he could follow the directions,but I could.
I could if I needed to tell him some.

(15:00):
So the day came and that morningwe were all three,
just giddy with excitement for Hunter'sfirst trail ride.
And even the scaled downmini version of a trail ride
was a very big deal for us all,and especially for Hunter.

(15:21):
He probably, of course, hasno memory of this, but he was too young.
But I have I have a distinct memory.
so that morning,
Melissa and I tag teamed,getting the horses ready.
We saddled our string up dude
horses every morning,and they would come in and stand

(15:42):
at the hitch and rail underneath,which was a big hay trough.
And then they'd get groomed and saddledand they would hang
the bridles on their horns.
So they were ready to go on a trail ride.
Any, any time anyone showed upand they were happy to just stand there,
even, hey, if they weren't.
So that's what we did every day.
So we brought the horsesand then we got them all saddled, and then

(16:03):
we got ready for our ride.
So we had this daily saddlingprocess down.
We did it every day. We had it dialed in.
It only took us about ten minutesto get all the horses groomed and saddled.
We kind of created an assembly line.
One person would,you know, run through with the brush,
another come through, clean the feed,the other comes

(16:23):
fine with the saddle and padand then the bridle.
So we sort ofhad this assembly line routine.
And on this day, however,what was different
was thatwe were bringing the pony into saddle
and he did notnormally come in and get saddled.

(16:44):
So it was a disruptionto our normal routine.
And this is where I learnedan important lesson
about how valuable routines are.
So we got the horses ready in no time.
Melissa mounted up her lead horse
while I put Hannah up on the pony,and I got them all squared away,

(17:07):
and we were leading the horse
from a halter and lead ropethat were underneath the bridle.
But we still had a bridle on the pony
because that's the safe thing to do.
And we wanted to kind ofwe didn't really hold the reins.
We just had a knottied in, around the horn.
But, nonetheless,there was a bridle on the pony as well.

(17:30):
And then I made sure the stirrups fit,and he was hanging on to the horn.
And then I handed the leadrope to Melissa,
who was already prepared on herlead horse.
meanwhile, I jumped on my horse
and fell in behind, and off we went.
Just to get out of the barn yard,we had to cross

(17:51):
a kind of rocky, fast flowing creek, butthis was the way in and out of the barn.
So the horses, all the horsesdid it all the time.
So it we navigated that just fine.
Hunter was squealingand yelling and screaming and laughing,
and we were having such a grand time.
It's so much fun to ride with little kidswhen they're getting that kind of joy

(18:13):
out of it.
And Melissa andI just got a huge kick out of his antics
and how much fun he was having,and we knew we wanted to keep it short
because small kidwould only be able to tolerate so much.
So then, as we were riding backon the final leg of this loop
around the barn, we wound throughthe trees in the woods and ducked under.

(18:34):
You know, he didn't have to duck,but we had to duck on two branches
and we were just kind ofturning back to the barn.
And we were in this little silly section
where you kind of roly poly up and downthese little hills.
And, as Hunter was going down
that hill in front of me,I gained a perspective, of

(18:56):
the girth area of the saddle,
and I nearly had a heart attack.
I looked down at the cinch,
and there was no cinch, not tied,and there was about
four inches of daylight between the cinch
and and the horse's chest.

(19:17):
I thought we were all going to die.
I had this,you know, instinctive motherly panic,
and I literally drove off my horse
to prevent what I thoughtwas going to be a certain disaster
of that saddle rolling over and himfalling off.

(19:42):
The only problem was,
I forgot to get both my feetclear of the stirrups first.
So my leap of daring turned out to be
a super hard faceplant on the ground.
Now I jumped up
because I was still, you know,get that adrenaline pumping, and I.

(20:03):
I had this vision of Hunterfalling off the horse.
So I jumped up, spitting out dirt
and gravel, a little bit of bloodbecause I got a fat lip.
And of course, Hunter turned aroundand looked at me
and his eyes got big
and he started crying.
And he got so scaredbecause he looked around and saw me

(20:27):
hit the ground and and, kind of scream as, as I did.
So then came the inevitablecrocodile tears
as Hunter saw his mommyinexplicably throw herself to the ground
and his trail ride bliss
just dissolved immediately,and he was crying big tears,

(20:49):
and they were leavingdust lines down his face.
And, I felt so terrible.
I didn't feel that great anyway,because I had a fat lip.
But actually
it was a really cheap lessonand it left a big impression on me.
No one got hurt,and although I had an ugly fat lip

(21:10):
to remind me of my stupidity,we made it back to the barn just fine.
Hunter forgot all about it.
Once his pony got going again,he was laughing again.
You know how little how resilientthose little guys are.
And Melissaand I deconstructed the incident
to understand how we missedthat most important thing in attack.

(21:30):
Check to check the girthright before you mount.
And again, by the way,ten minutes into your ride, we agree
that tag teaming the tacking of horsesis not always a good idea.
And obviously skipping that tackJack is just stupid.
you got to do it every time, every ride.

(21:51):
And at the end of the day,whoever is responsible
for mounting a rider on a horse,
whether that's you or someone else, isthat person
is ultimately responsiblefor doing a safety check first.
And funny thing was, we were religious
about doing it on our dudehorses on the trail string.

(22:12):
But because we had steppedoutside our normal routine,
I thinkthat's really what caused us to miss it.
One personthought the other person did it.
So, obviouslyI had to take the responsibility.
I was the adult in the room, but it wasit was an important lesson to learn.
So that was over three decades ago,

(22:34):
and I'd like to thinkI'm much smarter than that now.
Today I do things much differently,
starting with not getting in such a rushto get him on a trail ride to begin with.
He had his whole life ahead of him,and riding
is not really the best sportfor very young children.
More controlledand more directly supervised activities

(22:54):
might have been smarter.
Many people from my generation are nowintroducing their young grandchildren
to horses, and I am so gladthat we have better information
and more resources to helpkeep our kids safe.
certainly more than we didwhen my son was little.

(23:14):
Thanks to Innovative Helmet technologies,
we now have the option of ASTM, MSCIcertified
equestrian helmetsfor the littlest of heads.
You know,the ones that need the most protection.
So be sure to check out the toddlerhelmets at Troxel helmets.com.

(23:44):
In my mind
today we are on
the precipiceof a brand new revolution of horsemanship.
And when I was telling my husbandabout this episode, he said, well, what
what do they call it?
And we said that both of I remember
and we said,I don't think it has a name yet.

(24:07):
And he's like, how can it be a thingif it doesn't have a name?
And I said, well,because it's not really a thing yet.
We just think it's going to be a thing.
We want it to be a thing.
We want it to be a thing.
But no, it actually really is a thing.
It's just that it's it's not widely known.
And as I mentioned before, in Australia,

(24:29):
a lot of work is being doneon this kind of research,
and they are calling it learning theoryas it applies to horses.
So we'll get into that in a minute.
But you know, all this stuff I was talking
about changes in societal views,whether it is regarding animal
rights or veganismor environment, nature or whatever.

(24:50):
All these kinds of societal pressureshave also brought us to a day and age
where social license is a real thing,
and a lot of peoplearen't familiar with that term,
but you need to get familiar with itbecause it's happening
right before your very eyes.
And in the horse industry,

(25:10):
you'd be well advised to pay attentionto it.
So social license basically
just refers to an organization,or a company
should be operating in a waythat is ethical, moral,
environmentally sound,
and that society would approve of that.

(25:32):
Not just humans have an obligationfor that, but organizations and companies
do as well.
And so social license,
means basicallythat society approves of what you do
and horse sports
are pretty tenuous on its social license.
There are many out therethat would, you know,

(25:54):
like to completely do awaywith many of our horse sports.
And if we don't start operating
in a way that we can receivesocial license,
we're going to lose socializesince we've already seen it.
you know,they banned foxhunting in England,
where the sport originated.

(26:14):
It's now illegalbecause they didn't really have
social license anymore to do that.
the bloody murdering of foxes in public
was no longersomething that society thought was right.
So bye bye. Foxhunting.
So social license is happening,whether you're aware of that or not.

(26:37):
Another thingthat's happening in horsemanship
today is more science based trainingtechniques.
Busting old mythology using peer reviewedresearch and global collaboration
between universities and academicsto further advance our knowledge.
So, you know, for the first timesince I can remember, they're researching
this stuff at universities, like ridinghorses, training horses, how to do it

(27:01):
better, how to do it more humanely,how do horses actually learn?
It's not what we thought it was.
So there's a lot of changing, narratives
going on nowaround the way we talk about horses
and as I said a few minutes ago,
it's it's commonly being labeled

(27:22):
as science based learning theory.
And learning theory is
a summary term for the waysin which horses learn.
There's a variety of different methodswhich work really
well for horses to learn.
So learning theory combines psychology,what we know from psychology

(27:44):
and what we know from equine behavior,to identify methods
that are in keeping with the horse'scognitive abilities.
And one thinghumans have a tendency to do,
and is called anthropomorphism, is instillhuman characteristics in a horse
that he's not really capable of

(28:07):
because of the whole part of the brainthat we have that he doesn't have.
That's called the prefrontal cortex.
And this is the part of the brainthat gives us reasoning, gives us,
you know, the ability to think in complexways.
And horses don't have that.
They don't have a prefrontal cortex.
So when we say things like,that horse was just waiting

(28:30):
to get back at me, that's really notwithin their capabilities.
And so when we say that learning theory
is all about identifying techniquesthat work within the horses
cognitive abilities ishe has to be able to understand
it, make sense of it for him to learn.
So it's about not confusing the horse.

(28:51):
So let's talk a little bitabout the components of learning theory,
the idea being that a lot of this stuffis already being done and has I don't know
about, always been done, but good trainershave always used this stuff.
They just might not have understoodthe terminology or understood
the science based methodthat they were using, or the labels

(29:14):
that the behaviors put on it or anything,but they were doing it already.
So some of the, terminologyused in learning theory,
first of all, is habituation.
And I think most people are probablypretty familiar with that term.
Habituationmeans getting used to something over time.
And that there are a lot of examplesof how we need
to allow horsesto get used to things over time.

(29:38):
For example, let's say you have a horsethat's afraid of traffic,
and so you pasture him next to a busy
road and over time he becomes a bitch,
waited to the traffic, and traffic noisesno longer bother him.
He did.
In fact, he doesn't respondto traffic noises at all.
So that's habituation in its good form.

(29:59):
Unfortunate.
Lately,horses can also habituate to bad riding
so it can a bitch awayto conflicting signals.
It can habituateto inconsistent reinforcement,
and it can learn, in other words,
to tune the rider outjust like it learned to tune out

(30:21):
the noise from the trafficbecause it's just background noise.
It has no meaning.
It has no consistency,doesn't relate to what he's doing.
So he learned to just tune it out.
So habituation is reallynot always a good thing,
but it's just somethingthat people need to be aware of
and think about in termsof how it works on a horse.

(30:43):
So sensitization is another termwe use in learning theory.
And I have often said
training a horseto be ridden from scratch.
In other words, starting at a young horseunder saddle
is a processof both desensitizing and sensitizing.
So while we want to desensitize the horseto certain

(31:06):
feelings like the feeling of the saddleon his back, the feeling of the cinch
tightening around his belly,the feeling of the bit in his mouth
you want to desensitize himto the fact that I might be on
over your head, or on top of you,that I might be on both sides of you.
But yet we want him to remain sensitive

(31:27):
to signals, to communications.
And furthermore, in learning theory,there's great consensus
that desensitizing should never be donewith flooding of stimuli.
So, in other words, you know,that old idea of sacking out a horse?

(31:48):
And, you know, originally,I suppose it was done with a burlap bag
or a flour sack orso that's why they call it sacking out.
But then people would use saddle pads,but then they were using tarps and
and they just shake it, shake it,shake it over the horse
until the horse just dulls upand tunes it out.
That's flooding.
And that should never be donewith a horse,

(32:10):
because we don't want himto tune out his environment.
We don't want him to shut downand become dull and and he's he's kind of
going into a shock shellin that moment to protect himself
because he can't process all the stuffthat's happening to him.
So why would we ever want to do thatwith a horse?
We want him to remainthinking and interested

(32:33):
and paying attentionto what's going on around him.
Now, as we get into thesemore scientific terms,
I just want to say upfront that peopleare either unknowing of these things
or they think they know what it means,but they don't.
And, I know one of thethings you're going to say.

(32:56):
But first is operant conditioning.
So operant conditioning is a great thing.
It's most of what we doin training horses.
And it should continue to bemost of what we do in training horses.
So operant conditioning
is where horses learnfrom the consequences of their actions.
They learn from trial and error.

(33:17):
They learn when they do thisthe pressure goes away.
Furthermore, when they do this,
they might get a reward of praiseor some other reward.
So operant conditioning is a combination
basically of all reinforcement techniques.
Positive and negative.
Here's another areathat people have a lot of confusion over

(33:40):
is what is the differencebetween reinforcement and punishment.
And there's a huge difference,although what I often
watch people do and in my mindI consider it punishment.
But in their mindthey think it's reinforcement.
Like jerking on a horse's lead rope
and backing himhalfway across the arena in anger.

(34:01):
The very first bump on the rope
might have been a reinforcement,but every subsequent time that you jerk
that rope and backthat horse up is punishment
and you're just lashing out at the horse,I call it retribution.
So you have gone waypast reinforcement in that moment.
So reinforcement is anything

(34:22):
that makes a responsemore likely to happen.
While punishment is anything that makesa response less likely to happen.
So I like to use the exampleof a horse biting
because it's a very dangerous behavior.
And while there are not many things
that I would use punishment for ona horse, that is one of them.

(34:46):
So if a horse bites me
and within one second,preferably less than that a half a second,
I smack him on the chestor neck or whatever.
I have punished him for bitingand he associates the punishment
with the bitingand he is less likely to bite me again.

(35:06):
That's punishment.
Reinforcement might occur
if, let's say I've asked a horse to stop
and he takes another step
and I immediately bump the ropeto make him take that step back.
I have reinforced the cue
I gave him to stop,and so the next time I ask him to stop,

(35:27):
he doesn't take that extra little stepbecause I have reinforced the stop cue.
So that fundamental difference between
understanding the differencebetween reinforcement and punishment.
And when you cross that line.
Because what Isee so often, particularly people handling
horses on the ground when they're gettingfrustrated, the horse is getting riled up
and they start jerkingrepeatedly on that lead rope.

(35:50):
That's retribution and punishment.
And what we know, in science basedlearning theory,
is that punishmentreally does not work on horses very well.
Yeah, it might work for vices like bitingor, you know, really extreme behavior.
But for the most part,we don't use punishment
in the training of horsesbecause they are fear based animal.

(36:12):
So it just makes them more afraid,more fearful, less trusting of you.
So I struggle long and hard with this,because I would see it in the groundwork
portion of clinics where people would justkind of be losing it on a horse,
and they didn't realize.
They don't realize in that momentthat they're crossing the line.

(36:32):
But they are.
And I really struggled for a long timewith how to make how to verbalize.
First of all,how did I think it was crossing a line?
Why did I think it was crossing a line?
It took me a long time to figure that out.
And and then to put that in wordstook even longer.
But that's when I started sayingone and done.

(36:53):
You make one correctionand then you're done.
And then you go onlike nothing ever happened.
And he's the best horse in the world,and you expect him to be perfect,
one and done,because everything that comes after that
is punishment and retributionthat the horse doesn't deserve.
That confuses him, makes him afraid ofyou, and makes him not trust you.
And none of those are things that we want.

(37:14):
And also those are thingsthat make training the horse really hard.
He has to be relaxedand trusting in order to learn from you.
I think that's true of people too.
So now we get into the placeof the greatest confusion.
And that is
as it relates to positive reinforcementand negative reinforcement.

(37:36):
So many people thinkthey know what that means,
and they more or less think that positivereinforcement means treat training,
and that negative reinforcementmeans punishment.
And both of those are actually wrong.
When a lot of these modern
quotation scientists, they are callingthemselves doing the research today,

(37:57):
a lot of them believewe need to change this terminology,
because it is a hopelesspoint of confusion
that we need to just stop sayingnegative reinforcement,
because people are goingto never understand it,
because they thinkthey know what it means,
and they think it means punishment.
Yeah, everyone's always going to thinkpositive is good.
Negative is bad.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And so what they want to do is eliminatethe terms positive and negative.

(38:19):
So one behaviorist recommended calling it
addition reinforcementand subtraction reinforcement.
So a positive reinforcer rewards the horse
for a desired behavior by addingsomething that the horse would like.
Like a scratch on the withers.
Like praise from your voice like a treat.

(38:40):
So a treat could be one exampleof positive reinforcement.
It's not the only example.
So that positive reinforcer
that is added to the equationor the addition
reinforcement makes the behaviormore likely to happen again.
While negative reinforcementor subtraction
reinforcement refers only

(39:03):
to the use of the removal of pressure,
it refers to a timely release of pressurein order to train the horse.
It's only called negativebecause something is taken away.
So the simplest example I can use,I think, for people to understand that
negative reinforcement is not bad,and anyone who's riding

(39:24):
a horse is using itevery single time they ride.
So wewe sensitize a horse to a cue or a signal
that the closing of both legs
of the rider onto its sides means to go.
And so how the horse learnsthat is the first time we ride it.
We softly start closing our legsin a pulsing kind of manner

(39:49):
on the horse's ribs,and a tickling really kind of manner.
The horse feels that pressure
and startslooking for a way out of the pressure.
By trial and error.
He will eventually learn that
as soon as he begins to move forward,the pressure goes away.
So it is a negative reinforcement

(40:09):
or a subtraction of pressure
that causes the horse to learn.
And as it turns out,both positive reinforcers
and negative reinforcersshould constantly be used in training.
The quotation scientists of today.
The terminology they're using instead of

(40:30):
negativereinforcement is pressure and release.
Everybody's pretty accepting of that termbecause it's been around a long time.
We apply pressureand then we release the pressure.
And because horses are animalsthat feel pressure
so very keenly, all kinds of pressureare environmental pressure,
physical pressure, mental pressure,they feel all pressure keenly.

(40:55):
So for that reason,the application of pressure
and the removal of pressureis a very efficient way to train them.
They look for the release of pressure.
So if you can just kind of come to terms
with negative reinforcementnot being a negative thing,
and call it pressure and release, maybe everybody could be happy.

(41:17):
So there is also both positivepunishment and negative punishment.
So we can punish a horse by adding
something unpleasantwhen he exhibits an unwanted behavior
to reduce the chanceof that occurring again,
as I mentioned just a few minutes ago,like slap on the horse when he bites.
That's positive punishment.

(41:38):
I have added something to the equation.
Just yesterday we had a little incidentwith a horse where for no good reason,
she kicked out at some horsesthat just were innocently walking by.
And so I use my negative punishment.
I remove herand put her in solitary confinement.
If you can't play well with others,you don't get to hang out with us anymore.

(41:59):
And so when you remove somethingrewarding to the horse,
it discourages the behavior.
So that's what, negative punishment is.
Another good example of that is ignoringyour horse when he starts pawing.
Because if the horse is pawing,you have him tied up and he starts pawing
because he's bored
and he wants you to come entertain him,and you walk over there

(42:21):
and even if you walk over thereand scold him, positive reinforcement.
Yeah, he's got what he wanted.
So the negative punishmentwould be to completely ignore
him and turn your back to him.And he acts that way.
So understanding the subtletiesof these differences is really important.
And and peoplethat are working with horses,
you're training a horse or on trainingand every time you work with him.

(42:43):
So you would just be a lot more effectiveif you could wrap your head
aroundall these different subtle differences.
And what we're talking about here,it would bring a lot more consistency
to what you do, and thereforethe horse would learn and thrive.
And I think the people would be morehappy too.
So just two more quick terms.

(43:04):
These are pretty easy, involved in learning theory.
first we talk about shaping.
And this is, super importantto understand.
when we talk aboutbringing a horse along, slowly
building its skillsfrom the simple to the complex.
So shaping is a method of trainingwhere the trainer slowly

(43:25):
and gradually asks the horse to lengthenor fine tune its response.
So, you know, a lot of times
when I'm teaching collection,you've heard me do this 100 times.
You know, I want people to give the horsethe release at the first sign
of the horse, even lowering the heador breaking at the pole.
And then as time goes onand the horse is understanding

(43:48):
that cue or that signal,we ask him to hold it a little bit longer
and a little bit longer.
And in this time we're also buildinga little more strength in the horse.
It will be quite a way down the roadbefore we're actually
going round and round the arenawith a horse in a collected frame.
So that's an example of, shaping.

(44:08):
Another example iswhen we train the horse to back up,
whether you're on the groundor in the saddle,
you don't start by backing itall the way across the arena.
At least you shouldn't.That would be traumatic.
So we ask the horse,
we show him the signal,and we release the signal
at the slightest responseuntil we just are getting one step back.

(44:31):
Give the signal, get one step back,and then, pretty soon we ask
for two steps and we stay with two stepsfor a while, and then we ask for three.
So that's an example,of shaping as a training method.
Finally, another term that issometimes used in learning theory
with horses is, simply the old schoolclassical conditioning

(44:53):
and classical conditioningmost of us know as Pavlov's response,
and what it is defined as
is an automatic and unconsciouspairing of a stimulus
with a reflex action or emotionusing predictable signals.
Now, that's an example of whypeople don't like science.

(45:16):
But if you can break that down.
So it's an automatic
and unconscious pairing of a stimuluswith a reflex action or emotion.
So in other words, well,we know what Pavlov's response is, right?
So the bell rings and the dog salivatesbecause they rang the bell before

(45:37):
feeding the dogso many times that the sound of the bell
causes the same thing that the food does,which is salivation.
And so that's an automatic and unconsciousresponse to a predictable signal.
So sometimes we douse classical conditioning.
I as many people know about me,
I, I do not use treats in training.

(46:00):
Never have very, very few times
or situationsin which I would use a treat with a horse.
I just, I find, it's not necessary.
I find it gets in the way, is cumbersome.
And also, when poorly done,you get the wrong response.
so I've never felt the needfor treat training.

(46:22):
That doesn't meanI don't use positive reinforcement.
I use every interactionI have with a horse through praise,
through rest, scratch on the withers,those sorts of things.
But one thing I always used to dowhen I was doing a lot of Colt training
or if I was working with a skittish horsein particular, or,
a horse with a lot of anxiety isI would take the time

(46:46):
in the very beginning of my relationshipwith that horse,
to get a classically conditionedresponse from the horse,
from first my voiceand then from a scratch on the withers.
So I would, find a delectable grainthat the horse liked.
maybe I would do it when the horse wasactually eating its normal daily ration.

(47:07):
But while it was eating grainout of a pan, I would just stand there
and whisper to it, that's a good boy,that's a good boy, that's a good boy.
And pretty soon, in my mind,
anyway, he got the same good feelings
from my voicethat he got from eating the grain.
So then I would work on pairing

(47:28):
that stimuluswith a scratch on the withers.
So as he was eating his grain,I'd scratch him on the withers
and I'd be saying, that's a good boyscratching him on the withers.
And within about a week of that,
I then had a way to positively reinforcethe horse.
Just the sound of my voice and the touchof my scratching on his withers.

(47:51):
And I found that to be very,very effective to the point
where I just,I never saw the need or the purpose
for using treats, even though I used foodto create the conditioned response.
with my voiceand scratching on the withers.
So classical conditioning can still have,its usefulness as well.

(48:13):
So it's something that you wantto fully understand to.
And that's, that's just another part
of science based learning theoryas it applies to horses.
So it's a lot of stuff. That's all.
It's a lot of stuff.
But what I thought ofwhile you were midway through there is
just if people would start to think hardon their own

(48:35):
about your descriptionof positive and negative or adding
subtracting or what is it I'mtrying to get my horse to do right now,
that's going to encourage peopleto just start thinking about what it is
and understanding what it isthey're asking their horses to do.
And that's the beginning of peoplelearning how to train their horses

(48:55):
themselves. Yes.
And yeah, just just think it throughand consider what you're doing.
And I think that
historically, horsemanshiphas been taught in such a mechanical way.
Put your hand here, put the stick there.
Reinforcement is done with a crop and,
so there's just been so much

(49:17):
focus on the mechanicsand not actually what's going on
cognitively,either from the human or the horse.
So, you know, I really I strongly believethis is where we are today.
In my heart of hearts,I believe we're coming into
a new era of horsemanshipthat is going to be much more enlightened.

(49:39):
That is going to be much betterfor the horse.
I think we're already seeing signs of that
in the horse industryand in society in general.
I do want to share with you guyssome of today's pioneers
in this next era of horsemanship.
First of all,I want to give a plug to a book

(49:59):
I have really learned a tremendous amountfrom,
it's called A Horse by Naturemanaging emotional
and mental Stress in horsesfor improved welfare.
The author.
we'll put this in the show notes,for sure, but the author is Mary Simmons,
and there's a secondary subtitlefor her book,

(50:21):
which I happen to know is kind ofhow she wants the book to be used.
And, so her secondary subtitle isHow Wild Horses
Teach Us to Better Carefor our Sport Horses.
So it's a really interesting book.
It's fascinating.
Marianne did a lot of her graduate work

(50:42):
in Wyoming studying wild horse herds.
she's very active in the high,
high level performancehorse scene in South Florida.
And she really, believesthat even in the high level sport
horse world,that there is a lot to be gained
by learning how to manage the emotionaland mental stress in horses.

(51:05):
You'll you'll get a lot more outof your horses in the performance realm.
And some of the stuffthat I've shared with you today,
has come out of that book.
so, I would encourage you, if you're,
enjoy reading about horses,you're going to really love that book.
It's power packed.
Some of the work being donein this country, around these kinds

(51:27):
of science based learning theories inhorses is being brought under
the umbrella of an organizationcalled the Equine Science Society.
Their website is equine science.org.
again,we'll have a link in the show notes.
And this is a groupthat I actually started out basically
about horse nutrition.
And then sometime ago, a long time ago.

(51:50):
But it has eventually brought academicstogether
in all these different equinerelated, areas of study.
And so that today their missionis to promote quality research
in the areas of equine science,to establish effective communication
among researchers, teachers,extension and production personnel

(52:10):
regarding equine science,to conduct periodic symposiums and,
to cooperate with other organizationshaving similar, unrelated interests.
So that's just a group of academicand the like who are really coming
together, sharing their researchand sharing their information
and figuring out how to get it outto the broader horse world.

(52:31):
There's also two different groupsin Australia
doing some groundbreaking work in equityand science, as we are calling it.
There seems to be a lot of crossoverin these two groups, by the way,
just giving you guys good information hereand some resources.
I have no connection whatsoeverto any of these organizations.
I just want you to know where to gofor more information and where.

(52:54):
I've been getting a lot of this information from.
So the two groups in Australia,as I said, they seem to be overlapping in,
in the personnel
and the research that they're doingand certainly in their values.
But the two groupsare the International Society for Equity
and Scienceand Equity in Science International,
and they're kind of doing the same thing,but they have collaborated

(53:17):
on some methodologyand both of those organizations
promote what they call the tenprinciples of horse training.
And, I find this to be sort of the epitome
of what I hope is going to bethe new era of horse training.
And one of the groups calls itthe first training principles.

(53:39):
So before you do anything with horses,you want to make sure
that first and foremostyou are addressing these ten principles.
And number one is a regardfor human and horse safety.
And I just love itthat they put that first,
because as you were talking about a whileago, think about what you're doing.

(53:59):
And if you're chasing a horse
in a round pen and he's in a panicked way,running away from you,
trying to climb out of the fence,falling down, kicking out,
is that really a good thing for that horseright now?
Is that really a safe thing for the horse?
so under number one
regard for human and horsesafety is acknowledging that a horse's

(54:20):
size, power and potential flightingthis presents a significant risk.
Avoid provoking aggressive and defensivebehaviors like kicking and biting.
Ensure recognition of the horse's dangerzones.
The safe use of tools, equipment,and environment.
Recognize the dangers of beingineffective, inconsistent, or confusing.

(54:41):
Ensure horses and humans are appropriatelymatched.
That's a big one.
and and when you delve into the work,these groups are doing,
that's a really big one,that it is inhumane
and unfair to horses when you place theminappropriately with somebody
that is not qualified to handle them,

(55:02):
things are only going to get worseusually, and avoid using methods
or equipment that cause pain, distressor injury to the horse.
Now that seems like ano brainer, doesn't it?
Avoid using methods or equipmentthat cause pain, distress,
or injury to the horse.
While it seems like a no brainer,you know some of the hideous torture

(55:22):
devices were used on horsesand have used throughout history.
tells me that it's not obvious, right.
And and again, like you saida minute ago, just think about it.
Numbertwo, regard for the nature of horses.
Imagine that.
Ensure the horse's welfareneeds lengthy daily

(55:43):
foraging equine companyand the freedom to move.
Avoid aversive management practices.
Avoid assuming a role for dominancein human horse interactions.
Recognize signs of pain.
Respect the social nature of horses.
The importance of touchthe effects of separation.
Avoid movementshorses may perceive as threatening.

(56:07):
Yeah, also a no brainer regardfor the nature of horses.
Number three regard for the horse'smental and sensory abilities.
Avoid overestimating the horse's mentalabilities.
For example. Quote he knows what a he.
He knows what he did wrong.
He knows what he did wrong.
Acknowledge that horses see and heardifferently from humans.

(56:30):
Avoid long training sessions.
Keep repetitionsto a minimum, and avoid overloading.
Avoid
assumingthat the horse thinks as humans do.
Avoid implying mental states whendescribing interpreting horse behavior.
Numberfour regard for current emotional states.
Current emotional states.

(56:52):
That's the ridethe horse underneath you thing.
Be aware of the horseas he is right now, not the way
he was yesterday or not the way he waswhen you got him.
Ensure that trained responsesand reinforcements are consistent.
Avoid the use of painor constant discomfort in training.
Avoid triggering flight fight freezereactions.

(57:14):
It's interestingthey put freeze in their fight
flight or freeze.
Maintain minimal arousal for the task.
During training.
And I suppose that means try not to letyour horses get too excited.
Try to keep them calm.
Don't help the horserelax with stroking and voice.

(57:36):
Encourage the horse to adopt relaxedpostures as a part of its training.
Avoid high
arousal when using tactile or foodmotivators.
Don't underestimatethe horse's capacity to suffer.
Oh, that's a sad one.
It's just sadthat that has to even be said.
But I guess what that means is horsessuffer in silence a lot

(57:59):
and and people don't noticeelse it intact.
So many ways encourage positiveemotional states in training
five correct use of habituationdesensitization calming methods.
We talked about that quite a bit already.
avoid flooding techniques, ignore

(58:20):
undesirable harbors and reinforcedesirable alternative responses.
Number six correctuse of operant conditioning.
Remember that's kind of all of the aboveusing all the tools in the toolbox.
they say understand how operantconditioning works i.e.
performance of behaviorsbecome more or less likely as a

(58:42):
result of their consequences.
Tactilepressures from the bit like spur or
whip must be removedat the onset of the correct response.
Minimize delays in reinforcement becausethey are ineffective and unethical.
Use combined reinforcement amplifies
pressure release rewards with tactileor food rewards where appropriate.

(59:07):
Avoid active punishment.
Number seven is the correctuse of classical conditioning.
train the uptake of light signals
by placing them before a pressurerelease sequence.
Precede all desirable responseswith light signals.
Avoid unwantedstimuli overshadowing desired responses.

(59:31):
In other words, the horse may associatean undesirable response
with an unintended signalfrom the environment
and number eight is the correct useof shaping break down training
task in the smallest achievable
steps, and progressively reinforceeach step toward the desired behavior.
That's one area where I think.
I think that has been really brought homeby natural horsemanship, you know,

(59:53):
taking baby steps and all of thatand breaking it into the smallest steps.
So I think that's, an areawhere we have seen,
some nice change, maintaina consistent environment
to train a new task and give the horsethe time to learn safely and calmly,
only changeone contextual aspect at a time.

(01:00:16):
Now, that's a short statementthat has a lot of meaning.
Only changeone contextual aspect at a time.
So you knowhow I talk about horses are very location
specific and context specific,and what they learn.
And and a good example of thatto me is a horse that has become Senshi.

(01:00:41):
So of course, it's become reactiveto the tightening of the girth.
When you change the contextof tightening of the girth like you do it
in the middle of the ride or in the middleof the arena, not at the hitching rail,
those horses don't reactbecause you've changed the context.
But what they're sayingwhen you are changing something
about the horse's context,don't change it all at one time.

(01:01:04):
So if you're going to introducea new rider to the horse,
do it in a place that's familiar to him
and teach that riderthe signals that the horse already knows
don't change the rider and the locationand the cues
that you use all at once, because you'regoing to overwhelm the horse.

(01:01:25):
So then the
number nine is the correctuse of signals and cues.
make sure signals are easy for the horseto discriminate one from the other.
And, you know, you would be surprised.
You talk about asking peoplewhy you're doing that.
If you ask people,what is your cue to trot?
How many people doyou think could answer that question?

(01:01:47):
Well,
that's about usually how the answer goes.
Well, I wouldI would think I thought you were.
You're going to differentiatefor their cues to ask the different gates,
right, that they use.
But if you don't even knowexactly what your cue is to trot,
how do you know it's differentthan the cue to canter?

(01:02:08):
And what is the sequence of that cueif you're cueing with multiple aides?
what aides are you using
and what sequence are you using them in?
And if you don't,
if you can't answer that question,then you aren't cueing consistently.
And if you if you aren'tcueing for one thing consistently,

(01:02:32):
then you're almost certainly notdifferentiating cues for different things.
In other words,
is the cue to trot different from the cueto walk different from the cue to canter?
Well, I don't know, becauseI don't really know what the cue to do.
I just start ridingand he goes, you know, so.
And sure, each signal only has onemeaning, and sure, signals
for different responses are never appliedconcurrently, like stop and go,

(01:02:58):
ensure locomotor signals
are applied in timing with limbbiomechanics.
Ooh, that's a heavy statement.
So, that's about the timing of the cue,I believe.
So, and by the way,I just pulled a quote here, from doctor
McGreevy because,as it relates to inconsistency in cueing

(01:03:21):
and the way that we communicatewith horses when we're riding them
in particular, but also on theground, and this is a quote,
horses that have
been subjected to inconsistent signals,
such as the lack of release of pressure
or to the pain of bad schooling,
often acquire the reputationof being difficult and are sold to homes

(01:03:45):
where, more often than not,the harshness of schooling is escalated.
And that's a really sad thingfor horses. So.
So basically, as I interpret that horses
that have been subjected to bad riding
through inconsistent signals,a lack of release
or just harsh training

(01:04:10):
oftenacquire the reputation of being difficult.
So they end up in homeswhere they get more harsh training.
Yeah, that's a sadthing, is something I've seen since
I first started training horses.
Now I will say,I don't think we see it at the same rate

(01:04:30):
we once did in terms of,
you know, unintentional abuse of horses.
I think it was much,
much more widely practiced and acceptedwhen I was a kid.
People beating up on horsesand using very harsh.
Well, if you didn't believe that,they felt pain, that made it really

(01:04:50):
how convenient. It really.
Yeah.
And then finally, the numberten of the ten
principles of horse training
is my favorite, I think.
And it is a regard for self carriage,aim for self
carriage in all methodsand at all levels of training.

(01:05:13):
Trainthe horse to maintain gait, tempo, stride
length, direction, head and neck,carriage and body posture.
Avoid forcing any posture.
Avoid this one's for you to avoid naggingwith the legs.
Nagging with the spurs.
Nagging with the reins.

(01:05:33):
Avoid trying to maintain
responses with relentless signaling.
The constant nagging and kicking plucking.
that that that doesn'treally get you anywhere with horses.
So I love this.
I love this too.
And again, more detailed,it's very detailed.

(01:05:55):
It's very every word on there, every linehas its power packed with meaning.
This, by the way, these ten principles
of training are availablein a poster format.
You can download it online, you can geta big one and put it up in your barn.
It's what it's intended forin the in the in the poster format

(01:06:16):
is it's intended to be right on the doorto your tack room.
So you have to think about itevery single day you ride a horse.
After more than six decadesspent with horses and looking back
at different eras of horsemanshipthat I've personally lived through,
I'm really excited about where we areheaded now.
As an industry, it's going to take timeto root out the old unproductive methods

(01:06:39):
and the unproductive ways of thinking
that are deeply entrenchedand in tradition.
But we're headed in the right direction.
And now
it's time for my favorite segment,what the hey Q&A.

(01:06:59):
Each month we pick a few unique questionsfrom our listeners
and answer them on the air.
If you'd like to submit a questionfor what the hey, message me
on Facebook actually good nightor email podcast at Julie good night ecom.
The first question for todaycomes from Jennifer.
Hi Julie, I have a 14 yearold Standardbred gelding whom I've owned

(01:07:23):
for six years because of everythingI've learned from your books and videos.
He has wonderful manners under saddleand on the ground,
and is perfectly polite to his caregivers.
He lives in his pasture 24 seven
and is only stalledduring extreme weather.
Occasionally when I enter his stall,

(01:07:44):
he turns slowlyand points his rear in my direction.
He doesn't pin his ears,pick up his foot to kick,
or showany other blatant signs of aggression.
But I am aware of how incredibly rudeand potentially dangerous his behavior is.
I'm afraid to correct him at that moment,
since I'm in the stallwithout much space to get out of the way.

(01:08:05):
Should he threaten to kick.
So when thishappens, I take him directly to the arena
and do groundwork,and he's always compliant and obedient.
I can't figure out why he has this one
naughty stall behaviorand how to best correct it.
Thank you in advance for your advice,
and thanks for helping mebe the best person I can be for my horse.

(01:08:28):
Sincerely, Jennifer.
Well, Jennifer,you make me smile because, you know,
good job being such a responsible horseowner and learning and
and instilling good mannersand good behaviors in your horse.
And good on you for wanting to be
the best human for your horse.

(01:08:49):
But I'm going to have to disagreewith you on,
some of your outlook here.
first of all, I don't think it'sincredibly rude and potentially dangerous.
sure, it's potentially dangerousbeing in a stall with a horse
turning his rear end.
But this is not aggression.

(01:09:10):
This is.
This is a horse, expressing his emotion,
which at the momentis maybe a little concerned
or a little depressed or a little,
not looking forward to to work or,
you know, who knows what he's thinking,but all he's doing is turning away.

(01:09:31):
He's not threatening in any way.
He's just moving away from youand not coming towards you,
which is what you want.
So, I would agreethat he's not acting in a way.
You want him to act.
I just don't agree that it's bad behavior.
And it's really just an expressionof his emotion in the moment.

(01:09:51):
So let's let's just,
you know, back it up and look at itfrom a different point of view.
Horses.
You say your horse spendsmost of the time out in his pasture.
but he's obviouslycoming into the stall some.
Or you wouldn't be having this problem,because he's already in the stall.
So, even though a horse spins

(01:10:14):
very little time in a stall, perhaps.
but especially when they spend
a lot of time in a stallthat sort of becomes their space,
their home turf, their place of comfort,their place of sanctuary.
And when we barge into it,
they, you know, horses,some horses can find that offensive.

(01:10:38):
And, a lot of times horses,
develop these behaviors of turning away,
or worse, you know, actuallydisplaying aggressiveness.
or, you know, aggressive gestures,making aggressive gestures.
oftentimes that is just defensiveness

(01:11:00):
that occurs when you, seemingly invade a horse's space.
so you
mightnot get that behavior out in the open
because that's everyone's space.
But the horse thinks of his stall,can think of his stall as his own space.
So one thingthat we're always conscientious about,

(01:11:21):
if we have horses that have kindof defensive type of behaviors like this
is we just, you know, slow it downand take time to enter the stall.
So I might, stop at the stall doorand just, you know,
talk to the horse for a minute,say a few things to him,
give him a moment to noticeme and acknowledge me.

(01:11:44):
I might open the door and step insideand just stop.
Give him a minute to noticeme and acknowledge me,
and then maybe I'll meet him halfway.
If he's not coming to me or facing me.
I might slowly,you know, kind of skirt around his side.
But I'd only come so close beforeI put my hand out and let him smell me.

(01:12:06):
and all of that is just not toto barge in
and abruptly invade the horse's space,but to give him time
to kind of come around to me,warm up to me a little bit, if you will.
So I think if you,you kind of change things
and if you don't think about thisas some kind of personal insult to you,

(01:12:27):
but rather that, you know,maybe he's thinking,
oh gosh, I'm really tirednow I'm gonna have to go work or,
I don't think thattaking him out to the arena
and working him is helping you at all.
If he's, particularlyif he's dreading working,
at that moment that you enter a stall.

(01:12:48):
But, also because he's not likely
to associate one thingand the other by the time, you know, you
when you walked into his stall and he,you know, slowly turned away from you,
and then by the time you actually get outto the arena and are doing the work,
too much time and stuff has elapsed,

(01:13:10):
for the horseto associate those two things.
So if I do have a horse that has learned,
what I would call more, more rudebehavior,
like,sort of deliberately turning his butt
to youand maybe gesturing with the ears or

(01:13:30):
picking up the feetor something like that.
I would still do all the same thingsI just mentioned in terms of slowing down
and giving him timeto warm up to your presence.
and, and, and in that process,I would also be encouraging him
to turn towards me.
but if he

(01:13:50):
if he crosses the lineto where this behavior becomes more overt
or there are more expressions, gestures of aggression
or or stronger,
gestures of defensiveness,then there's a technique
that I would use to just train the horseto turn around, face me.

(01:14:11):
So it's a simple thing.
I'd just be holding a halterand lead rope in my hand,
and I would, hold the end of the lead
rope in my left hand and the halterin my right hand, and I would go through
all the previously mentioned stepsof approaching slowly and all of that.
But when the horse turned his rear endto me,

(01:14:32):
I would just start tossing the haltertowards his hind end,
and then I'd reel it inwith the lead rope.
I'm standing way back,well aware, away from the horse
and I'm in no way hitting the horse
or acting aggressively in any way.
I'm just kind of tossing the halter Adam,in an irritating way,

(01:14:52):
and he he won't like that.
So the only thing left to him to dois to turn around.
And at the moment he turns around,I just turn around, walk out of the stall.
So I basically am going to kind of
just irritate the horseuntil he turns around and looks at me.
And when he turns around and looks at me,I leave the stall

(01:15:15):
and I'm going to do this repeatedly.
It shouldn't really take that long.
it shouldn't take too many repetitionsbefore the horse is eagerly facing you.
When you walk into the stall.
So I would ratherhe come to all of that conclusion himself,
by me just slowing downand taking the pressure off of him
and encouraging him to turn towards meby walking away from him when he does.

(01:15:40):
but if the horse, like I said, doescross a line into rude
or aggressive behavior,
you can try that techniquewith a long rope, long enough
so that your, that you still steerwell clear of the hind feet of the horse.
Although to be honest, I, I,I never throw the or the,
the halterin an aggressive, threatening way.

(01:16:01):
so I've never really had a horsekick out,
but I would always,I would always plan for that to happen.
And by giving plenty of room.
So I don't thinkyou have much of a problem at all there.
Jennifer, I think you've donean excellent job with this horse,
and maybe this is just a little thingthat you need to give him.
just a small expression of his feeling,
and look for ways that you can make him,

(01:16:24):
think more fondly of your time together.
Our next question
is from Apprehensive advocate.
Will caller.
Dear Julie, I am a voracious,
lifelong learner and have read, listened,
and watched everything I couldabout horse behavior and training

(01:16:47):
and am so gratefulthat I found your podcast and videos.
My teenage daughter joined
her school equestrian team last April
and she started lessons at the Coach'sBarn.
We purchased our first horses in June.
Although we are experienced with showingand caring for many different species

(01:17:07):
and for age, I didn't knowa lot about horses at the time,
but there were some thingsthat did not feel right.
It quickly became apparent to me
that the training methodswere inappropriate.
I witnessed physical punishmentbased instruction
by one of the assistant coaches whipping
horses about the faceand flank with the end of the lead rope

(01:17:31):
and even pinching on the flank for minor
infractions during showmanship training.
My daughter told me the assistant alsohit her horse, making him very reactive.
They are
both doing fantastic now at a new barn
with a new trainer, butmy daughter wants to join the team again.
I want to be proactiveand tell the head coach

(01:17:54):
before the team starts againthat I do not want this assistant coach
who is the coach's friend,working with my horse or my daughter.
Do you have any advicefor how to set my boundaries
without creating more barndrama and problems for my daughter?
Or should I tell my daughtershe cannot be on the team at all?

(01:18:15):
Thank you.
Apprehensive advocate.
Well, I'll just call you mom for short.
yeah, there's a lot going on there, andI think that your instincts were spot on.
I think that the assistant
trainer you're talking about is a person

(01:18:37):
that is using traditional,
forceful methods of training
without much realization
of how ineffective it is.
And, perhapswithout sharing the same kinds of values
that both you and your daughterhave when it comes to working with horses.

(01:19:01):
Now, we, you know,
talked about thisin today's episode of the podcast.
There are, you know,
horsemanship is a sport highly,highly steeped in tradition.
And unfortunately,a lot of that tradition is not good.

(01:19:22):
And this doesn't necessarily
make the people using these tactics badpeople.
It's just all they know.
And they just don't know another way.
And, you know, I, I've seen that all of my life
and I've seen it in other countriesas well, where, you know, people,

(01:19:43):
horsemanship techniques tendto be passed down through the generations.
And, you know, in the previous episode,we talked so much about the history
of horsemanship and in particularhow we transitioned from horses
being, subsistence based animals to,

(01:20:04):
and utilitarian animals to suddenly,not suddenly,
but eventually becoming luxury animalsand recreational animals.
And there are still many old school
values, that linger.
And when we talk about thisnew era of horsemanship,

(01:20:25):
what we're talking aboutis saying goodbye to those tactics.
We hope, but they are still there.
But that doesn't meanwe have to abide by them.
And whether you did itintentionally or not, you
you got away from that situationand your daughter has thrived
under the, coaching and guidance of this new trainer.

(01:20:49):
so in that process, your daughter has alsoboth of you and your daughter
have learned that you have certain valueswhen it comes to this endeavor.
And I hope
that you have listenedto the ten Principles of Training,
because they answerall of these questions for you.
And what what your intuition was tellingyou was wrong

(01:21:15):
is very clearly stated in those trainingprinciples that I shared with you.
So let that be a good guideline for, knowing
and being able to expresswhat your own values are.
Discuss it with your daughter so that

(01:21:35):
everyone's clearthat you share the same values.
but it is your daughter's
responsibilityto be the advocate for her horse.
And I know that you
that that's important to instill in herand that you already have.
And it's your job as her motherto be the advocate for her.

(01:21:55):
But I think you also, at this ageand point in life and with the perspective
she now has,I think you need to let her lead on that.
I think you need to let her become clear
on what her training values areand what she
what and what is not okay with her.

(01:22:16):
And I think you need to make it clearthat you will be there
to support her in those decisions,but allow her to take the responsibility
for herselfand for her horse and, not allow
people like that to work with heror take ownership of that horse.
And she can respectfully decline,their help.

(01:22:38):
or she can ask you to step in,but I'm not so sure
it's a good ideafor you to proactively step in.
just because I think that could, as you
perhaps alludedto, create more drama than you want to.
And, and, perhaps embarrass your daughter

(01:22:59):
or perhapscause them to treat her differently.
so I would be careful about that.
I would definitely
let your daughter continueto be a part of that team.
The social aspect of horsemanshipat that age is so important.
but make it a learning lesson.

(01:23:20):
I have.
The ten principles of training willgive you some structure to your thinking.
And, if you see any of that happening
or if your daughter asks you
to step in, to support her,
by all means do that and let her knowthat you're there to do that.

(01:23:41):
But I would let her handle it.
It's her horse and her responsibility.
you've laid all the groundwork, and,It's time.
It's time for her to,you know, really make this
a formative life lesson.
that something that sticks with herfor the rest of her life.
So I'm good.

(01:24:02):
Good job for you for recognizingthis was an inappropriate situation.
And, I think you're.
I think you're above and beyond it now.
So good luck to you and your daughter.
That's all we have time for today.
Thank you to Cody for joining mein this great discussion.

(01:24:25):
And thank you all for listening.
Next month I've got an exciting gueston the show, Doctor Sarah Matlock,
a professor of equine behaviorat Colorado State University.
Will join me to talk about herfascinating research
into using positive reinforcementto gentle mustangs.
Remember to subscribe nowso you won't miss a single episode.

(01:24:49):
And of course, share a ride onwith all your friends.
Do you have a horse training questionor issue you want me to talk about?
Just message me on Facebook at Juliegood night or email podcast at Julie.
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(01:25:09):
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Good night!
To get even more training,advice and updates
and head on over to Academy Dot Julie.

(01:25:31):
Good Nike.comfor tons of free training resources
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(01:25:55):
I'm Julie, good night.
Thank you for listeningand please stay safe and enjoy the ride.