Gentling Mustangs with Positive Reinforcement: Part 2

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
You're an inspiration.
You were there to help me.
You just saw the need and said,can I help you?
We learn a lot from watching other horsesand watching other riders.
I'm Julie, good night and thank youfor listening to my podcast about horse
training, equestrian sports, and buildinga better connection with your horse.

(00:26):
It's time for Ride On with Julie.
Good night around the ranch.
well, these days,everything is all about Annie's cult.
Like all proud parents out there,Annie and Rich
and I think our cult is exceptionalin every way.
He's beautiful, he's smart, he's talented.

(00:47):
I know a lot of you have been curious.
It took us a while to come upwith a good name for him, but
we have, officially nicknamed the Cult.
Rip, of course, is registered.
Name will be somethingfancy, but, just is a barn name.
And the namewe know him by, we're calling him
rip, and we primarily came up with thatjust from watching him
running around out in his paddockand how he, you know, he

(01:11):
he can be just cantering alongand then take off like a bullet.
He seems to be a bit of a sprinter.
Any he likes to rip some big moves too.
Like like you would expect of acutting bred horse.
So he just rips around that pasturelike crazy.
And also,those of you who have watched Yellowstone,
the TV series, well, you probably knowthat one of the main character's

(01:35):
name is rip, and he is, a bigger than lifecharacter to say the least.
And that really seems to fit as well,
because the colt sire is a stallionby the name of Bette.
He's a cat and he stands.
The stallion stands at the famousFour Sixes Ranch in Texas,

(01:56):
which is partly owned by Taylor Sheridan,who is the producer of Yellowstone.
So it's kind of, a name that that fitsand and on a number of different points.
So today, as I make this recording,rip is just a little over two months old,
and I've started to introduce himto the rest of the herd up until now.

(02:19):
And he's been very clear she didn'twant anything to do with the other horses.
But as, rip gets a little olderand she gets a little,
more tired of him, the other horsesare looking better every day.
And Rich's older horse, Casper, who livesin the stall right next to Annie.
And he's always been real close to herand a protector of Annie.

(02:44):
And now he feels that way about rip.
So he has turned outto be the perfect uncle horse,
and he keeps a close protective eyeon both Annie and Rip
and he tolerates most of Rip's
rowdiness,although he's doing a stellar job
of teaching rip about boundariesand manners and stuff like that.

(03:06):
So rip is, at this point minimally haltertrained.
He's leading pretty well, and he standsnicely for halter and unfaltering.
We started leading the two of them, Annie
and rip up to their grassy paddockfirst thing in the morning,
and then back to the barn at nightand we started that on his very

(03:28):
second day of live.
So he was 24 hours old when he firstwent up to the grassy paddock.
And it's a few hundred yardsaway from the barn, so it's a
nice little walk in hand twice a day.
And, this is what you may have, before,if you've been following my stuff
for a while, you may have heard meuse the term organic training.

(03:52):
and what I mean by that is that it's
we're we're not really doing any kindof formal training session with rip.
we are just practicing in the way
it's going to be done every dayfor the rest of his life.
we're doing it that way from day oneso that it's not really so much
he learns as it just becomesa normal pattern in his life,

(04:16):
and it has a purpose,
which is to go from the barnup to the grassy paddock.
And the great thing aboutthat is the halter ring and unfaltering
and leading all of that is areally positive event for this little guy,
because it's fun and entertainingto go up there in the mornings.

(04:36):
He can't wait to get out of the stall
and go up there and run aroundand see new stuff.
And then by the time,you know, mid afternoon
and he doesn't like to stay outall day, she,
she lets herneeds be known and stands at the fence and
knickers and anyone that comes by thatshe's ready
to go back to the barn by then.
they want to be in the cool stall.

(04:57):
They want something to eat. Not.
And, you know, the colt wants to lay down,take a nice nap in his cool, comfy crib.
And so to him,it is just a normal thing that we do.
And it's it's works out really well.
Now, if you tried to lead him,you know, somewhere different or
separate him from his motheror anything like that,

(05:18):
he wouldn't look like he was very halterbroke.
But, while we're doing a daily routine,
he is just all business,and he just marches right out
beside meor whoever is leading him, and he,
he he knows the task at hand.
So right now,
I'm just gradually teaching himby every now and then when he comes back

(05:40):
to the barn in the stall,I just will momentarily hold him still.
And he's learning.
I actually started doing this when?
From when he was first born on.
So I'll just kind of put my armsaround him in a hugging type of way
and just ask him to holdstill for a second.
And as soon as he justrelaxes and hold still, I let him go.

(06:02):
So it's like a two second ordeal.
And gradually, as time goeson, he will learn, that at times
he has to stand still.
At timeshe will be restrained from movement.
And it's a nice thing for a horseto learn early on
when it's actually possibleto, physically restrain him.

(06:24):
So he gets always getsa nice little scratch, during that time.
And he loves that.
And we don't really scratch on hima lot and rub on him because that gets him
a little pushy.
So, that's kind ofwhat I'm working with him now,
teaching him to hold still momentarilyand also to allow me
to rub him with a rag

(06:47):
that's damp with the all naturalUltra Shield green fly spray.
So the flies this time of yearare really starting to get bad.
We don't have terrible flies,but this time of year
in August particularly,they start actually biting.
And and you know, if you get your legsor arms fit, you know how much it hurts.

(07:08):
So I'm trying and I of course, I wouldn'twant to use a stronger
chemical fly spray on him.
but the Ultra Shield,all natural green fly
spray has a really nice kind of,
kind of eucalyptus tea tree oiltype smell to it.
So it's pleasant and, so I just,
I just spray it on to a ragand then I rub it on its body.

(07:32):
Now, easier said than done.
When you get to the parts of his body
that he's not used to being touched,like his belly or his legs.
We're just working slowly on that.
oddly enough,because we spray Annie every day
with the green fly spray,I also wouldn't use a stronger chemical,
which I would normally use on herwhen the flies are biting.

(07:53):
But because the colt is suckling
and he's putting his mouth all over herall the time, I don't want him.
I really don't want him aroundthe really stronger stuff.
So, So he's learning a lot.
Again, an organic way.
But when you spray Annie,if he's standing there
next to her,you can spray him just as easily.

(08:14):
He thinks nothing of it.
He just.
He just thinks it'sa perfectly normal thing that happens.
And it's kind of interesting to see.
Now, when I try to rub it on him,he gets a little squirrely still.
So that's kind of a backwardsway of thinking about it.
for all of you that may have had troublegetting an adult horse
to accept fly spray,and this little guy thinks

(08:36):
nothing of itbecause his mother thinks nothing of it.
So it seems normal to him.
But aside from the handlingthat we're doing minimal,
you know, like less than five minutesa day.
I'm really a big believer in letting foalsbe falls, letting them be babies.
There will be plenty of timeto train on him
when he's older,like 2 or 3 and under saddle.

(08:59):
Training goes so fast that there'sreally no reason to do it ahead of time.
And a lot, a lot of negativescan come out of handling a foal
too much or trying to trainon a very immature horse.
And, and you really don't gain anything.
You have a lot to loseand you don't really gain much.

(09:20):
So we will tread that line very carefully,
handling him only enoughto make sure that he's easy to manage.
And he doesn't develop bad habitslike biting
or, you know, bumping into youor slang has had at you.
So we want him to learn boundariesand some very basic manners.
Otherwisewe just want him to have fun being a baby

(09:40):
and and now and focus on growing up.
Believe it or not, around herein the high mountains of Colorado,
it's already starting to feel like falland the fall flowers are blooming,
which we're having a wet and cool summer,so the wildflowers are just
amazing up in the mountains.
I'm actually looking forward to falland getting back on the road

(10:04):
starting in Septemberwith my clinics at the close of You Ranch
that's up in Northern Coloradoand Granby, Colorado,
and I'm starting in Septemberwith my brand new program.
It's something we've been workingon, for a couple of years now.
It's calledGood Nights Ultimate Riding Vacation,
and basically it's a four day, luxurious,

(10:28):
horse centric vacationhigh up in the Rocky Mountains.
at a ranch with 200 head of riding horses.
We're going to we have some great trailriding events, social events, clinics,
lessons in the arena, plus all kindsof other resort activities available.
And fall is such a glorious time of yearin the Rocky Mountains.

(10:52):
right after that, vacation clinic, I'malso hosting
my ever popular ranch riding adventurethat's early in October,
and the ranch Riding Adventures,one of my most popular events.
It's for the people that just can'tget enough riding, all levels of riders.
But, there's four riding sessions a day,so two in the morning,

(11:13):
two in the afternoon.
And, you'll definitely get your shareof riding in on that clinic.
And then finally, at the end of October,I'll be in College
Station, Texas,for the international conference.
It's going to be there at Texas A&M.
I'm really excited about that.
By the way, this is a hands on conferencefor horse professionals, trainers,

(11:35):
instructors,barn managers, trail guides, therapeutic,
all kinds of, professional level people.
it's a highly educational event.
But the cool thing is it'sopen to the public.
Anyone who has an interestin learning more about horses
and riding and training,is welcome at this event.
It's one of the few conferences I know ofwhere you actually get to ride horses,

(11:57):
school horses during the, conference.
And in the workshops and stuff.
So you'll you'll learn a lotat this clinic.
It's, for me, it's a lot like, it's
it's always had the feelof a family reunion.
I've gone to this conferencefor about 25 years,
and, it's just so much fun to go backand see old friends and,

(12:19):
everybody kind of networking togetherand learning a lot and meeting new people.
So it's open to the public.
You can find outmore about all of these programs at Julie.
Good night.com/events.
And there you will find informationon all of my upcoming clinics.
You'llalso be the first to know about new events

(12:40):
when you sign upfor my weekly newsletter at Julie.
Good night. Com slash news.
When you sign up, you'll also get my brandnew training articles podcast episodes
as soon as they drop exclusive dealsand regular updates from me.
You can also find me on Facebook,Instagram and YouTube at Julie.

(13:01):
Good night!
Today's podcast is part
two of my interview with DoctorSarah Matlock.
She's a professor of equine behaviorat Colorado State University,
and we'll be talking about her researchon the impacts

(13:23):
of positive reinforcementon the training of wild mustangs.
She explains the unique challengesassociated with channeling Mustangs,
as well as the importance of understandinghorse behavior and motivation.
And in my
What the Hay Q&Aat the end of this episode,
I'll answer questions from listenersabout a horse that panics

(13:46):
when he's alone on the trail, a horsethat's easily distracted,
and a mare that just trotsfaster and faster.
When asked to canter.
Before we dive into today's topic,let's kick things off with.
Long story short,
I'll tell you a story from the early daysof my horse training career.
Funny or amusing,exciting or inspirational,

(14:09):
each story has hard won lessonsI carry with me to this day.
I hope to inspire and entertainyou by sharing
my real life experiences,even the tough ones.
So maybe you won't have to learnthe hard way.
About 30 years ago,I had some horse training clients
that decided to adopt

(14:30):
a wild mustang from BLM,
and when they went through the adoptionprocess,
they had picked outa approximately five year old mare
and beautiful dark bay mare,
and they went ahead and hired thethe prison facility
where she wasat to put 30 days of training on the mare.

(14:54):
And that obviouslywould be under saddle training.
And I guess I can actually officially say,the purpose of the training
was to break her, because first of all,this was 30 years ago.
And second of all,these were wild mustangs
and this particular prison facilitywould bring in, oh, I don't know.

(15:16):
There were hundreds and hundreds.
there was
well over 500 horsesin these holding pens and stuff.
And they had, I'm going to saysix or 8 or 10 round pens.
And of course,they had an unlimited supply of,
people to get on these horseswhen they bucked them out. And,
being the prisoners there.

(15:36):
And so they were training a lot of horsesand they were basically,
you know, they were using some,
more modernnatural horsemanship techniques.
But at the end of the day, they were kindof cramming and jamming on these horses
and, and creating the 30 day wonders.
And on the dayI was appointed to go pick up this horse,

(15:57):
the idea beingI would drive there with a trailer,
they would show me what they had donewith the horse.
I would actually try the horse out,
and then I would come home with the horseand continue its training.
And all of that happened. there were some,
really highly interesting things
about going to the, to the prison,but we don't have time for that now.
So, I'll save that for another time.

(16:20):
But when I went to pick upthe horse, as I pulled up
and I was parked in my traileralongside all the round pens,
there was this horsewhich ended up being the mare
we were taking homewas already in the round pen.
She had a rider on her.
She was soakingwet with sweat from nose to tail,

(16:43):
and they were canteringaround the round pen
and you know, so that was sort of my first
red flag is like,I've got an appointment to be here.
I'm here a few minutes early,
and you have already riddenthis horse up into a full lather.
Why didn't you wait for meto be there to see that process?

(17:06):
So I got out of the truckand I, you know, kind of.
Yeah, whatever.
Met the guy that was in charge,and we wander over
to watch the horse being worked.
And then I started noticing more things.
First of all,
by now, the guy was trying to
bring the horse back down to a walk,but she he couldn't get her to walk.

(17:27):
She was prancing.
She was over collected.
He was holding the reins, like,really short and tight.
They were riding her in a shanked bit.
Now, this is a horse that has no morethan 30 days of riding on it.
And it was actually a rather harsh bit.
It was a Tom thumb, many of you have heardme talk about the harshness of that bit.

(17:52):
and also another big glaring red flagwas the guy had spurs on
and he could not get this horse to walk,and it was just
a lot of stuff that didn't make sense.
And, you know,it was no great surprise that he couldn't
get the horse to walkbecause he was holding her way to die.
You know, it was just ait was a very, very tense situation.

(18:15):
Also in the process,the men were out there
and the guy on the horsewas was a prisoner.
And then there were alwaysthe supervisors around who were either
guards or BLM, trainersthat would be supervising everything.
And I picked upon some really interesting comments
that were being bandied about like, oh,this one's got a lot of go.

(18:38):
And, you don't have to ask her twice.
And boy, she really knows what she wants.
And, you know,just kind of a lot of stuff that was,
also causing,
you know, red flags to pop up in my mind.
But pretty soonit was time for me to get on the horse.
I wasn't concerned about the prancing.
I knew the guy was causing that,and I knew that was a quick and easy fix.

(19:02):
But when I went to get on the mare,
two big men, both
men in charge, one worked for the prison,
one worked with BLM,and they they jointly ran this program.
As I get ready to get on this mare,
they both just kind of subtly slinked up
to the side of the horse at her head,

(19:25):
and each of themgrabbing the cheek piece of the bridle.
So now I'm getting readyto get on this horse, and there's two big
men on each side of her,holding the cheek pieces of the bridle.
Now, what that told me wasthey did not trust her one little bit,
and they didn't want her to explode.

(19:46):
When I got on her.
And, on top of the two menpositioning themselves there,
the one man on the left,which was obviously on the side,
I was mounting from cheeks,the horse down.
Now, for those of you that are unfamiliarwith that term, it's a very old school
way of, again, I'm going to use the termbreaking the horse.

(20:10):
So when we used to talk about saddlebreaking a horse,
there was a lot of different techniquesinvolved in that.
But one of them checking the horse downwould mean you would just grab the lefts
at you.
Being the personabout to get on this bucking bronco
would grab the left sideof the cheek piece instead of holding
the reins in your lefthand, you're actually holding

(20:31):
the left side of the cheekpiece of the bridle just above the bit,
and you make the horseturn its nose back towards, let's
say back towards the horn of the saddleor back towards the girth of the saddle.
As you get on the horse.
So the horse's cheek downwhen you've grabbed him by the bridle

(20:51):
and pulled his nose all the way around,basically to where your knees going to be
when you get on the horse.
And it's very effective,because it's very difficult for the horse
to take off or startbucking from that position.
So it's not a it'snot a terrible thing to do.
And it's not an abusive thing to door anything like that.
It's just what you doif you're riding a bronc, you know?
And, I'm not saying I would use thattechnique.

(21:14):
Never have, never will.
But, anyway, the techniquein and of itself is not abusive.
You just basically haveby turning the nose all the way around
like that, it's not really possiblefor the horse to take off,
until you let the nose go.
So it's just kind of a thingpeople used to do.
So they kick this horse down.
As I got on her and she just stood there.

(21:36):
She didn't.
She she was very tense,but she didn't do anything.
And so they gradually I was like,okay, men, you can step away now.
And the first thing I did was just kind of
take a deep breath on herso she could feel it.
And then I loosened
the reins way up,and she just put her head down

(21:59):
and took a deep breath, and I stroked heron the neck a little bad.
She took another deep breath,and then and I.
I had no prior thought of this,but just it occurred to me
in that moment, I decided to show herI didn't have spurs on.
So I slowly took one leg
and then the other, and I just slowlyclosed it on her sides and just kind of

(22:21):
softly rub my lower leg, you know,
just above the foot, the Achilles area.
I just rubbed it upand down the sides of her rib cage
just so she could see
I didn't have spurs on, and that seemedto calm her down even more.
And then whenI just gently reached forward

(22:42):
and barely asked her to go,she just stepped right off
and a nice relaxed walkand we walked around on a loose rein.
She was great.
I eventually asked her to trot a littlebit and she again she had her head down.
She was, quiet.
Shouldn't necessarily trot slowly,but she was nice and quiet
and I felt pretty good about it.

(23:03):
I knew she'd had some intensive, riding,but I also recognized it
for what it was,and I knew I could fix her and I did.
Indeed.
I got her home, and the first thing I didwas put her in a snaffle.
we started riding around a loose rein.
We, just worked on being low and slowand quiet and relaxed.

(23:25):
And she was going great.
About three weeks intothat is when I ran into an issue
and I was in the arena, outdoorarena, riding by myself,
and I was
riding around the short end of the arena,and I had already myself seen that

(23:46):
my son was riding up towards the arenaon his horse, big buckskin horse.
And as I was turning away
from the barnand kind of riding away, in a direction
that put both her backand my back to the barn,
that was about when he came riding upand she didn't see him.

(24:06):
So as we came around the corner
and were turning back towards the barn,
she caught sight of Hunter on that horse
and she instantaneouslywent into a full blown panic.
I mean, she went from relaxedto full flight
in like a heartbeat,and you could feel it in her whole body.

(24:30):
We were all the way at onefar end of a very big arena,
and she took off across that arenain a dead run.
I in that moment had been ridingwith very loose reins.
I had been trying to teach herthat loose reins were good.
And so as she kind of spun and boltedfor the other end of the arena,

(24:51):
I'm scrambling to trying to gather upmy reins, and she's gaining speed.
She's running towards the fence,
and I get the clear impressionthat this fence
is not going to slow her downor stop her one little bit.
She's just going to jump the fenceand continue on across the prairie.
I had just a few secondsto kind of think things through,

(25:13):
and I literally reached upand grabbed the left ring of the bit,
and I took my left hand and my right hand,
and I pulled with all my might upand back on the actual side of that bit.
And just before we got to the fence,
I was able to turn herand bring her to a stop.

(25:33):
Of course, I immediately jumped off of her
and she was just shaking all over.
I've never seen a horsethat was as traumatized in the moment
that went from justeverything was fine, to acting
like she was going to die that fast.
She was shaking all over.
She was way over threshold.

(25:54):
she she was panicked.
Her eyes were big,sweating, breathing hard.
It was clearly fearin the most raw and pure form
from the ground.
Just kind of standing there holding her.
It took me a good 5 or 10 minutesjust to calm her down
and to calm myself down, to.I was just scared.

(26:14):
She was by then and,
you know,she settled down and, after that,
we backed up her training a little bit.
I stayed better prepared.
I didn't leavethe reins quite so loose anymore.
I feared that this bolting incident

(26:35):
indicated that the mare was inappropriatefor their teenage daughter.
I really was concerned about that.
But when I discussed it with the owners,
you know, they were there.
They didn't see it, but they decided to
just not worry about itand continue her training.
And they turned out to be ridebecause she never did it again.

(26:55):
And she turned out to be an amazing marefor their daughter.
But none of this actuallyis the actual point
I want to make with this story.
So a few weeks later,after that bolting incident
and I was back to riding her and I hada lot of a lot more confidence in her.
Again, the brand inspectorwas out at my farm and,

(27:19):
I'm sure many of you
aren't familiar with brand inspection,but in the state of Colorado,
when you buy a horse or sell a horseor transport a horse long distances,
they have to get clearancefrom the brand inspector.
And, he does cattle as well as horses.
And whether or not your horse is actuallybranded is irrelevant,
but they just monitor the movementand the titling of horses.

(27:44):
So the brand inspector was out,and we were looking at a horse
that was in the pen with,along with that Mustang,
and he said, oh, you got a mustang here.
And I said, yeah, I'mturning in this horse.
And and we're just chit chat.
And he's an old friend.
And he launches into this storyabout Mustangs.
And he says, yeah, you got to bereally careful with these Mustangs.

(28:09):
The ones that were rounded upfrom horseback sometimes when they catch
sight of a strange horsewith a rider on it, they just panic
because that's the first thing they sawwhen the roundup process began.
And all of a sudden, in that
moment, this was an unsolicited storythis guy told me.

(28:31):
But in that moment,it was abundantly clear to me.
That's exactlywhat had happened with this mare.
Everything was fine.
She was relaxed and peacefuland accepting and willing.
She unexpectedly caughtsight of that horse with a rider on it,
and she was instant PTSD, traumatizedand of course,

(28:52):
I have no way of knowing this for a fact,but it made total sense.
And back then, most of the horseswere rounded up from horseback,
and so that association
that was created in her mindfrom that first sight of a strange horse
with a rider to the traumatic eventsthat would

(29:13):
then follow, of being rounded upand separated and,
you know, confined and run through chutesand all of that.
Obviously, it's a traumatic event.
And, so it's understandable that
for some of the feral horsesthat are rounded up, if it all started
by the unexpected sightof that unknown horse with a rider on top,

(29:34):
then that's an unforgettable memorythat will stay with that horse forever.
Now, this horse went on to be A48show horse, and obviously
she got usedto having strange horses around there
and she became just a regular old horse,super nice horse.
But it was just that early experience thatthat kind of set her back a little bit.

(29:54):
But there were a lot of lessonsto be learned in that story.
not just about how clearly associationscan be made with horses,
but also about how the flight fight
freeze response can happen so fast
because of triggersthat we may not know or understand.

(30:14):
I could have just as easily never heardthat story from the brand inspector
and put those things together,and it would have remained, in my mind,
a questionmark of what caused that horse to bolt.
So, it was an interesting story.
And, you know, I've neverin my entire life trained a horse
I didn't learn something from, I usuallylearn something every single day.

(30:36):
And this was just another case in point.
And I think it will bean interesting story to think about
while you listen to my interviewwith Doctor Matlock.
What was the
overall result of the Mustang journaling?

(30:58):
What was the outcome? Yeah of that.
So really interesting.
We had 15 horses altogether.
We had five horses that were all stars.
They were trained,they were gentle, incredibly fast, faster
than like the traditional rate of
of even gentle halters on them.
Day one, that kind of stuff.
and they were lined up at the gateready for our sessions anytime we were.

(31:22):
And they couldn't wait to go to. School.It was so cute.
I mean, they'd all be therejust waiting to go.
So they were our all stars.
And then we had fivethat were more traditional in the time
or the duration it took to gentle them.
They took a little bit longer,but it was still effective.
So they were about the same time frame.
Is probably an average horse, too gentle.
You don't have like good numberson the average time it takes.

(31:43):
There's not real studies on that.
But when we look at like kind of the timeit took, it was pretty average.
and then we had fivethat we were never able
to actually kind of breachthe touching period.
So we could we could touch their face,we could touch their neck,
even get to their withers,get the tags off of them.

(32:04):
But they wouldn't let us go beyond that
at the time.
I didn't know what I knewabout negative reinforcement.
And so now looking back, I think I wouldhave done the study a little differently.
And what I mean bythat is we have horses and horses
that are really scared of people,or I've had some significant trauma.

(32:26):
They're going to be more reinforcedby their ability to leave you
than they are about staying and engaging.
And those horses were so highly reinforcedthat they could leave us
if they wanted to.
We never really made good progresswith them.
So, They were just more highly motivatedto leave.
Yeah, exactly.

(32:46):
They, they they had a comfort zone.
And when we breached it,they would just walk away very slowly.
Walk away.
That was I think,
the great thing about clicker trainingbecause from the very get go,
they knew that they could just walk awayif they got scared.
That was the biggest behavior we ever got.
We never we never had any aggression.
We never had horses bolting or spooking

(33:06):
because when they got nervous,they would just very slowly walk away.
Interesting.
Now our, our all star group would circle,
so they would walk awaya couple feet and come right back to us,
And let us continue onright where we were.
So it's pretty cool.
But the five that never graduated,they would just walk away and stay away.

(33:27):
They wouldn't go back right.
So eventually you,you would have gotten there.
It's just that it was way beyond the time.
Or do you think you had never gottenthere with those horses.
that's a good question Julie.
In retrospect like I mentionednow I think what I've learned
about negative reinforcement,I think that that would have been more,

(33:50):
successful with those five horses, the.
Release of pressure. Yes.
And just so that everybody is clear,by that you mean
pressure release pressure, releasepressure release to train the horse.
Yes. Except rather than using pressureto force a behavior
which is, pretty common method,a pretty common way of using it.

(34:10):
what I mean by using it iswe would still shape behavior
by capturing pro-social behaviorand releasing
when we capture that behavior.
So the only way to capturepro-social behavior
is to be outside of their threshold.
So, as I'm approaching the horse
that scared of me, him just looking at me.

(34:31):
Turn around. Walk away.
Exactly, exactly.
Yeah, that's that release of pressure.
That means everything to the horse,whether it's scared or not, to be honest.
They just really respond to that.
So this brings me to the next thingthat I wanted to talk about, which,
you know, we've talked about the resourceguarding
and the rulesand why those rules are important.

(34:55):
But with all your experiencewith positive reinforcement
as a sort of singular method of training,when does it not work?
You touched a little bit on itwith this last group of horses,
and you discovering thatthe removal of pressure
was going to be more meaningfulto these horses.
So what would you say are the limitations
of positive reinforcementwhen it comes to training horses?

(35:19):
This.
Let'sgo beyond this, gentlemen of raw horses
and move in to actually training horsesto perform, to be ridden and all of that.
Yeah.
So I think the two biggest limitationswould be first, that our
feeding management doesn't really supportthe use of food as a reinforcer.
And I think we try and use positivereinforcement with hungry horses

(35:43):
too often.
And so that arousal state is just too highand the motivation
isn't in the right place.
They're not motivated in the waythat we need them to be as a learner.
Right.
So and so that'sone of the biggest limitations I see.
I actually have three.
The second
limitation is that in traditional negativereinforcement or pressure release

(36:04):
we've kind of learnedthat ask tell demand approach.
And what happens isour criteria is always really high.
So when we want a behavior we have a highexpectation for that behavior.
And we don't always understandhow to shape it.
And so when we try and use positivereinforcement in the same way,
you can't just get a behavior from 1

(36:26):
to 20 in two clicks and reinforcers.
You have to learn reallythe art of that really low criteria.
To shape that behavior.
Just beginning to move in the rightdirection.
Exactly. Yep. Yep.
And it's really difficult for people
to understand how small that is.

(36:46):
Yeah. Little movementthat I need to shape.
Their behavior is so very small.
We were just doing a video yesterday
with a yearling Coltthat had never had his feet picked up.
Yeah, yeah. And,
no horselike that, especially the hind feet.
Right.
And, and you, you really do have to shapethat behavior, starting with,

(37:09):
I might touch your leg.
I'm going to touch your leg nowand wait until that horse
is no longertrying to get away or squirming or.
And he relaxes,and then you walk away, and then,
you know, and it might take,I don't know, 20 or 30 approaches
before you actually got your hand downto the foot of the horse.

(37:30):
But with every approach
you got a little bit further, andthe horse became more accustomed to it.
And anyway, so that's that.
That's what you meanby the shaping of behavior, I think.
I love that where you put it, we,you know, we start out with a really high
criteria, like,oh, I want you to do a flying lead change.
Yeah. That horse, you didn't do it right.

(37:51):
Or I want you to hold your foot upin my hand for 10s.
Yeah.Even though I've never held it before.
I've never. You've never. Even thoughI've never touched your leg before.
Yeah, exactly.
So, yeah. SoI think that's a really important thing.
And that's a simpleit's a seemingly simple concept.
But I think you're right.
It does comemaybe out of that ass tail command.

(38:12):
Okay. So what was the third thing. Yeah.
And then the third oneand probably the most problematic
and we see this in the researchis we call it a poisoned cue.
So when we pair negative reinforcementand positive reinforcement in training.
So let's say you have someone
who wants to incorporatepositive reinforcement
to try and make a more meaningfultraining experience.

(38:33):
But they're also using,
pressure releasein a way that might be kind of punitive
if the horse feelsthat negative reinforcement to be punitive
and you're trying to partner it
with positive reinforcement,we get what's called a poisoned cue.
So in essence, the positive reinforcement
has no value as a motivator for the animalanymore.

(38:56):
Excellent.
Give me an example of whatthat looks like.
Yeah.
So the research they actually didI don't want to butcher it.
So I should probably just sharethe article with you.
It's been a while since I've read it,but the research
that sticks out in my mind,they've done this with dogs
where they were trying
to shape the behavior, to teach a dogto sit on a particular square.
And so these dogs, were on a leashand they were given

(39:17):
a little like negative reinforcement,with a choking collar.
Right?
Like a can't think of a term.
But, if they were on the wrong squareand then if they went towards
the right square,they were clipped and reinforced.
so they were using a combinationof pressure
release and positive reinforcementto try and shape the behavior.
and then in the, control condition,it was just positive reinforcement.

(39:40):
They used positive reinforcementto help the dog learn
which square they needed to sit on.
And so what they foundwas that when the dog had a choice
to do it on their own,the dogs that had that like,
double reinforcementor like combined reinforcement, excuse me?
They just didn't do anything.
They just and seemed to have a negativeassociation with the trainer in general.

(40:02):
whereas the dogs that were just trainedwith positive reinforcement were very,
very eager to participate.
I think kind of speaks to that cognitivebias.
Right? Right.
You know, if it's tainted with somethingthat doesn't feel very.
Good, they lose their interest in learningor trying to figure it out or.
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.
In my mind, positive reinforcement doesnot have to entail a food based treat.

(40:26):
So when you praise a horse after he'scompleted a good response
or he's he's responded appropriately, isthat an example of positive reinforcement?
Yeah, that's a great question.
So when we think of like whattruly is a positive reinforcer,
we have to think of the individualspecifically.
So really only the animal can tell youif that verbal praises

(40:49):
reinforcing or if that food is reinforcingor if that.
But scratch is reinforcing.
and so that's where it gets really trickywith horses.
When we look at what is motivating,what truly motivates behavior.
Because at the end of the day,that's what a reinforcer is.
A reinforcer increases the likelihoodthe behavior will happen again.
So when you think of whateveryou're using to reinforce that behavior

(41:11):
that's the motivator.
and so what's motivating.
And so if I think if the relationshipis really strong
between the horse and the human,and we have to really think about
what could be in that relationshipthat might be aversive.
And that's a hard thing to look at inour industry.
Right.
Like that's andand speaks to the other side

(41:31):
of the research that I do is looking atlike low level behavioral indicators
of stress and horsesthat are in equine assisted services.
so I've watched a lot of horsebehavior in writing sessions.
And once you see stuff,you can't unsee stuff.
Yeah, I know exactly what you're and I'veworked a lot in therapeutic settings too.
And and there you get it gets back to,oh, he's just grumpy.

(41:53):
That's just who he is. But yeah.
Yeah. But why. Right.
Right. Yeah.
So when we think aboutI say all that to say when we think about
is that meaningful to the horse,the pet or the verbal praise?
Is it meaningful?
That's a hard question to answer, right.
Because we just don't really knowif it's truly motivating as a reinforcer.

(42:16):
It would be hard to shape behaviorwith scratches
with horses, but that doesn't meanI haven't used it before.
So at the pointwhere, you know, a lot of training
in the early stages of a riding horses,simple desensitization.
But then we also have to sensitizethe horse, teach it cuz
and we also have to teach the horse

(42:38):
that there are certain expected,behaviors.
We have to teach itwhat I would call a work ethic,
which the whole thing inclassical training is without free forward
movement, a horse cannot be trainedso early in that horses
training,we have to ask it to move forward.
And if it refuses to move forward,

(43:00):
we have to sort of cross that bridgebefore we can train it.
Anything else?
A horse that won't move forwardcan't really be trained.
Yeah, I don't see a lot of application forpositive reinforcement in that process.
I do see the amazing
result that negative reinforcement

(43:20):
in terms of pressure and releaseand the removal of pressure.
I've never met a horsethat wouldn't work for the release.
And what's lacking is the human's ability
to give the release entirelyand at the right time.
100%. Yep.
I think this is where it can get tricky,because it speaks to the point

(43:43):
of teaching a horse on cue. Right?
Like, theoreticallywe should be using negative reinforcement
to teach a behaviorthat then paired with a cue,
and then the horseshould always respond to the cue.
Right.
And and then we don't
have to use pressure anymorebecause they understand the expectation
and they have a high enough rateof reinforcement that it's just ingrained.

(44:05):
They know what to do. Yes.
But the problem is I think with us
with, with people is that like you justmentioned, we don't release pressure.
And so we
we think we're releasing pressure,but we're, we're still maintaining
some type of pressure.
And in, in behavior science, that'swhat leads to extinction of behavior.
Yes. They no longer do it anymore.

(44:26):
And that's where most horses ridinghorses are trapped
between stop and go cues. And,
they're just got their head up thereand they're kind of plowing around
the arena mindlessly because nothing,
nothing has any meaning anymore. Yep.
I think your, your viewsand your experience with positive
reinforcement is, is really interesting.

(44:49):
And so I guess my final questionand I've kind of already alluded to
the answer is do you think a riding horse
could be trained solelywith positive reinforcement?
I don't think a riding horseshould be trained solely
with positive reinforcement,and to my knowledge, there hasn't been one

(45:11):
that's been fully trainedsolely with positive reinforcement.
I know that there are trainers out therethat are attempting it.
I think it would be good to documentit and see if it's possible.
but I think
from my experienceand my understanding of learning theory,
it's really not possiblebecause if we're riding the horse

(45:32):
and using tools for riding any kind of,
engagement, even with the cue,could be seen as pressure for the horse.
And with the release of that pressurebeing the reinforcer,
we're still using negative reinforcement.Yeah.
And to go a little bit further,I think it's really important that horses
learn that pressure isn't scary,that there is a way to avoid pressure,

(45:56):
and that there is a way to make pressurego away when we're dealing with humans.
And that's reallyfor the safety of people,
for our safety and for their safety.
So if we have a horsethat never truly experience
of being caught up in a wireor being caught up in a rope or getting,
you know, they get away
and the rope is dangling behind themor something, spooks and they run.

(46:16):
it's importantthey have the tools to get out of that.
And pressurerelease is the most effective way.
But I think the key for me with thatis that when we're training
these skills for these horses,that they're always under threshold
because it does go back to the need toestablish a strong reinforcement history.

(46:36):
That they feel good about them.
So if they're over threshold and scaredwhen we're using pressure release.
And I'm not so surewe're always making a good association.
how would you define I mean I think
probably everybody has an ideaof what it looks like.
But how would you define a horsebeing over threshold?
Yeah.
So when I think of over threshold,I think of a true fight

(46:59):
flight or freeze response.
So we have they are runningand trying to get away from you.
So any like actively avoidant behavior
or they're
being what seems aggressivebut it's most likely just offensive.
So that's the horse that tries to chaseyou away or bite threats or kick threats

(47:19):
when they're over thresholdwhen they're trying to get away.
the freeze response is the hardest.
And I think it's the onethat we don't recognize a lot.
And when I see a freeze responsethat can go wrong,
it's usually after a flight response.
And the flight responsedidn't get the pressure to go away.
So they just stop responding altogether.

(47:41):
And then we release the pressureat that point.
And we think they've learnedthe right behavior.
And really they're just shutting down.
Yeah. Yeah.So you've reinforced that. Yeah.
And so how I actuallylike challenge students.
How do you testif my horse is still scared of something
when I've really worked with themto not be scared of it?

(48:02):
If they're still spooking every timeit comes out, they're still scared of it.
Yeah.
They have, they haven't identifiedthat thing as non-threatening.
so we and that's honestly this getsa little bit into the weeds, Julie.
But another really fun test with this is,
exposing them to something
on one side when I'm in trainingthat they might be a little scared

(48:24):
of under threshold, towhere they're no longer reactive at all.
Under threshold, then, we know they have
a really developed corpus callosum,that transfers
information from one side of the brainto the other side of the brain.
So they should be able to identifythat thing as non-threatening
if they're not afraid.

(48:46):
So it gets really kindof an interesting thing.
But so in other wordsyou might have trained a response
on the one side even though the horseis still afraid of it.
Absolutely.
You bring it to them.
And a good testis if they spook on the other side.
Interesting. Yeah, yeah.
Now, you know, aswe talk about negative reinforcement or,

(49:09):
it's maybe better understood as pressureand release,
that is somethingthat, is constantly being done and riding.
So when you cue a horse and then theyrespond, you release the pressure. Now
when people tend to
think of negative reinforcement as bad,
they are always thinking of the pressure,always being,

(49:34):
aversive and,
and really negative to the horse.
And I guess my personal feeling onthat is the reason why
pressure and release worksso well with horses
is because they are animalsthat feel pressure of all kinds
very, very keenly, whether it's mentalpressure, environmental pressure,

(49:57):
or actual direct physical pressure.
we know the whole fly lands on the hairand they shake the skin.
That's the sensitivity level to touch.
But there is also sensitivity to.
And environmental pressure.
There's sensitivity to mental pressure,which,
I think most people don't get rightabout horses.

(50:18):
Right.
You know, the minute you're approachingthe horse, you're putting pressure on it.
Right?
So I guess I get frustrated with peoplethat, you know,
you were talking earlier about everybody'sin one camp or the other.
Either you're all positive reinforcementall the time or you're like, no,
I'm never going to use it.

(50:39):
And so it bothers me that people,
even when they talk about negativereinforcement or pressure
and release, it'sas if the pressure is always bad, right?
And I just don't think itit has to be that.
I don't think it is that way.
And I don't think it has to be that way.
And I think that's maybe related,you know, to what you were talking about

(51:01):
in, in teaching a horsethat pressure doesn't have to be bad.
Absolutely.
And I think it also kind of speaksto the traditional sort of ask,
tell demand, because I thinkwhat can happen is for people
that might struggle with the conceptof shaping behavior with low criteria.
And you use the ask, tell demand approach,

(51:22):
and the horse isn't performing exactlythe way you want.
We can get punitive pretty quickly.
and, and so that's,I think the downside of negative
reinforcement, the,the dark side of pressure release,
pressure release inand of itself is not a bad thing at all.
It's actually a wonderful toolto use in training,
and it's a tool thatthey use with each other.

(51:43):
but it
can slip veryeasily into the punishment categories.
When we look at the learning quadrant,reinforcement reinforces behavior.
Punishment stops behavior.
When we look at the science behind those,we know that punishment in people
and animals is the least, has the leastlong term effect on behavior change.

(52:05):
And, you know, I'm going to make sense.
Our prison systems are overcrowdedand never seem to work right.
So punishing a behavior doesn't change.
Motivation and punishmentleads to fear and aggression in animals.
So where we have to be really careful withpressure release is when we start to use
that pressure in a way that is trulyaversive, is truly punishing

(52:28):
because the animal's not cooperating.
Well I, I,I gotta tell you, Sarah, I have struggled
and struggled over the years to try to
help people
understand when they are crossingthat line and because of your knowledge
and background and experience,you see it as much as I do.

(52:51):
Wheresure maybe one reinforcement was needed,
but then it immediately morphs
into this repeated,let's say jerking of the lead rope.
Or now I'm back in the horseacross the arena or whatever.
Yeah,and it crosses the line into retribution.
Yes. Really quickly.

(53:12):
Yes. And the horses feel likethey're just being attacked at that point.
Totally.
And they learn not to trust you.
And they, you know,they become fearful of your reactions,
fearful of their own reactions,fearful of trying.
But the person doing thatoften has no clue that they have switched

(53:33):
from a correction to a punishment,and then to highly ineffective punishment.
Yeah, because it goes on and onand on and on. Yes.
Injudicious.
Injudicious for for punishment, to workin it for animals, non-human animals.
It has to be it has to be implementedduring the behavior.

(53:54):
So if it's after rightit there's no longer
an association between what's happeningand what they did.
And yeah.
And so I
but this kind of it's kind of interestingyou bring this up Julie because I think
and this is I think where workingwith students in the classroom
really helped mechange my perspective on horse behavior.

(54:14):
When we look at why a horse is doing this
traditionally wewe use terms like disrespect, dominance.
And I don't mind those wordsin and of themselves,
but for human beings, we take those wordsand we give them way
too much power and meaning so thatwhen we feel disrespected by a horse,

(54:35):
and then we become correctiveto the point of being injudicious,
we actually get a dopaminehit in our brain.
Wow. So the yeah, the science behind like
when you feel like you've been wrongedand you,
you know, you serve justice,you get a dopamine hit for that.
And so that's why I'm always real carefulto use terms like disrespect with horses.

(54:58):
So in other words, if I'm a personthat goes out to a restaurant
and then some, my food comes coldand I start yelling at the server.
I feel like I've been wronged and I
yell at the serverand that makes me feel better.
I get a hit, a dopamine from that, or.
I think you can that it's interestingyou bring up that scenario because usually

(55:23):
when we think of these dopamine hits,it's it's a really true like
an injustice has occurred to you.
But when we think of yellingat your server for cold food,
that's probably more,like redirected behavior.
There's something else going onin your life, and you took it out.
You're still out. Hop along. Yeah.

(55:43):
And so?
So in other words, that you
you had a senseyou were truly wronged, that this was a,
a bad thing.
And so you're lashing out in response toit makes you feel better.
Yet like you are fair
and judicious and and you are indignant.

(56:04):
You are angry as the result of somethingunjust.
Well, that's exactly what you seewhen people are doing this to horses.
Yes, they've taken it personally.
Because because we label it that way.
We say they're being dominant.
We say they're dominating you,we say they're disrespecting you.
And so as human beings that alreadystruggle with our own emotional regulation

(56:26):
and our own ability to identify, likehow we're actually feeling about stuff,
it's really easy for us to sort ofredirect stuff going on in our own life.
Now, to say, all right, horse,I'm gonna make you do this.
And I feel good about it, even if you'rein the corner trembling, you know.
Now, I've seen it.
I've seen it in myself.
you know,say when more when I was younger.

(56:50):
I see itevery day in the way people handle horses.
And I've worked really hardto try to come up with phrasing
and wording that helps, you know, peoplekind of get that on their radar.
And one thing we came up with,it was one and done.
You're out of there.
Let's move on. It's a whole new day. Yep.
And is it the importanceof not taking a horse's behavior?

(57:11):
personally? He's a horse.
He's responding like a horse, and he'sresponding to whatever it is you're doing.
Right? Right.
And you might be doing it right,and you might be doing it wrong.
But whatever it is you're doing,it's getting the response in the horse.
Exactly. Yeah.
Good or bad, right? Good or bad.
I tell students, you know,if you don't understand a behavior

(57:33):
that a horse is doing either under saddleor in hand, film yourself
and watch you like.
Watch yourself, watch your body language.
Watch your facial expression,watch for your release.
because most of the time we're justwe put on so much mental pressure.
And here's the thing we don't quite havethe science behind understanding this yet,
but we do have pretty good evidencethat horses can evaluate

(57:56):
your breath rate and your heart ratefrom up to four feet away.
And so, you know, ifif you're feeling scared,
if you're nervous, if you're angry
and on the outside you're stoicor you know,
in other words you're incongruent,you're outside doesn't match your inside.
they're not going to trust this.
They don't trustwhat's happening right now.

(58:18):
so your body language is doingthe right thing, but they can sense
that your heart rate and your pressureand everything is not okay.
Absolutely. Yeah.
So now they have a contradiction
that they can't explainand it seems untrustworthy.
And if they know you
well enough, maybe it's somethingexternally you both should be scared of.
Yeah. Right. Yeah.
But if they don't know you very well,then they're probably just scared of you,

(58:42):
Yeah.
Well, to kind of
think about wrapping this stuff up, then
how about let's get let's kind of delveinto learning theory and this new era,
shall we say, of horsemanshipand the quotation science.
Just can you kind of talk about whatall that is.
Yeah, yeah.

(59:03):
So a quotationscientist is really the science
and research behind horsemanship,
whether it's writing or in hand.
But it's it's really looking at thewhat does the science say.
What does the research sayabout this human animal interaction
as it relates to riding and horsemanship?
And, and, and honestly,you know, a lot of our,

(59:27):
a lot of what we know is really based
on sort of historical methods passed down.
Right.
And it can be differentbased on where you're from,
what part of the world you're from.
And, and there's a lot of, incongruities
even in that, even in the toolswe use, the training methods we use.
And so equity in scienceis, is really asking those hard research

(59:48):
questions and exploring the toolswe use, the mechanisms, how do they work,
how are they applied and learning theoryand what are the, possible,
impacts on welfare, on, on horse welfare.
And another areathat they're really looking into as well
is it's knownas the five domains of animal welfare.

(01:00:10):
and it's,that's an expansion of the Five Freedoms.
If anyone familiar
with the Five Freedoms,it's really looking at freedom of disease.
freedom from,starvation, freedom from fear, freedom
to express normal behaviors, specificallyto livestock production animals.
But the five domains, through good,really good research

(01:00:31):
over the pastdecade has morphed into it's not enough
to just look at the negatives,like preventing negative welfare.
we actually have to start being able tomeasure for,
positive welfare markers.
So because we know now that you can meetall of the basic needs of an animal
and they can still have a poor wellbeing,right.

(01:00:53):
Like poor mental health, if you will.
And still be depressed.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
You could have a full belly, a roof
over your head and free from sicknessand you could be really depressed, right?
So, bored and.
Exactly under stimulated.
And so, the five domainsand you mentioned it earlier, Julie,
most of the times, not most time.
A lot of time, I should say, when we seebehavioral issues in horses,

(01:01:15):
they actually stem from those five domainsnot being met,
even just one of those five domains.
So if I have a student, for example,that that says, hey,
you know, Sarah, we've got this behaviorthat's happening in the arena
and they'll explain this long behaviorhappening to me.
And and the reality is,I can't even begin to dissect it
until I know where do they live,what's their feeding schedule?

(01:01:38):
Do they lay down when they sleep?
Are they around other horses?
Like there's
so much more to the story than justwhat the behavior is in the moment.
And a lot of timeswhat is showing up in the arena
is the direct resultof something happening in their home life.
So the equity science pieceis really exploring
the impacts of those five domainson welfare and behavior.

(01:02:00):
in the human animal interaction.
Can you give a descriptionof what learning theory is?
And it's not just relative to horses,right?
Right. Yeah.
So when I think of learning theory,I really take it to that sort of,
I think most specifically on how
we teach a behavior,like what quadrant are we in

(01:02:23):
when we look at reinforcementversus punishment,
what reinforces behaviorand what motivates behavior?
I think the most specific thingwith horses, for me,
the most important thing for meis truly motivation.
What is motivating the behavior?
All behaviors for a reason with horses.
So, you know, humans,we can do things out of pettiness.

(01:02:43):
We can do things because we justsimply don't like each other.
But when we think of, horsesand that just innate
need for survival, all behaviorsthey exhibit are for a reason.
And so if we think of learning theory,the three things that I think
about specifically with behavioris this truly a learned behavior?
They were reinforced by doing this

(01:03:03):
right, like it was a reinforced behaviorsometime in their history.
Is it a behaviorthat rose from a problem or a pain?
And now there's an a pain association.
And and so that association of paintriggers the behavior.
And it's not actually reallya learned behavior.
I think of since horses for example.
Right.
Like a horse that since she had some typeof pain previously, whether it was ulcers

(01:03:28):
or an ill fitting saddle or atoo tight of a girth, something happened
and now there's a pain associationthat's triggered by that stimulus.
I think the same thing,
having started a lot of class,it could be a fear association.
Yeah.
And most, most cults are not going toif you shape the behavior
correctly, you're not goingto have much reaction to the search.
But some horses will and we may never knowwhether it was pain or fear,

(01:03:53):
but I've seen itbe just as much of a fear response,
like all of a suddenthis thing is attached to them.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
And so then this kind of makesa great case in point, Julia, if we so
if we attach this saddle to themand they bucket out bucket out bucket out,
bucket out and finally stop buckingand then we say okay, good.
You've learned that this saddleisn't going to kill you.

(01:04:15):
Good job.
How could we test this theory.
If it never happened again?
Exactly. exactly.
But you could also say.
And this is why, as a young horse trainer,I was like, no, I'm pretty sure
I do not want the horseto ever, ever, ever, ever buck or react
negatively to the center of the saddleor anything. Yep.
Because you could also say that that horsethat's bucking it out

(01:04:39):
is associatedbucking with the saddle being on his back.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Right.
And so yeah,I think that's kind of the importance
of shaping behavior,preparing a horse for the worst case
so that they don't ever have to experiencethe worst case.
Right. They have the tools to feel safe.
And for me, at the end of the day,when I think of learning theory

(01:05:01):
and applying it to horse training, for me,teaching the behavior is the easy part.
Teaching what we want them to dois the easy part.
Teaching them how to feel aboutit is the hard part, and we forget that.
And and how they feel aboutsomething is what really falls over
into our future interactionsthat end up potentially dangerous.

(01:05:24):
so one of the studies in equity in science
is that was quite the groundbreaker,I think, in the research was
they looked at bucking, rearingand bolting in horses under saddle.
And the number one cause of bucking,rearing and bolting was pain.
And so oftentimeswe think it's a fear response, right.
Or even a learned behavior.
But it was actually a pain response.

(01:05:46):
And the number onecause of pain was improper use of the bit.
And that's why I like, you know,I tell people like film yourself,
if your horse is doing a behavior,film yourself and be critical
of what you're doing in that moment.
Yeah.
I don't think most riders
realize the amount of pressurethey're putting on the mouth.
And then even right down toI watch people leading

(01:06:09):
horses around that are bridledand they're holding that bit clamped,
you know,
they're pulling on the bit from the groundin the complete opposite direction.
It's designed to be putting pressureon, you know, and
and there's there'sabsolutely no awareness.
Not only that,
you want to preserve that mouthand any pressure it feels on the mouth.

(01:06:31):
You want it to have specific meaning.
Then you get off and you pull the horsearound with this bit
and it's going all over his mouth, jabbinginto his roof of his mouth and stuff.
Yep. And the people doingthat are not intentionally.
They they would neverintentionally hurt their horse,
and they would not intentionally tryto degrade

(01:06:52):
the cues that the horse mayor may not have learned from the bit,
but they're doing itjust without any thought at all.
Right. And yep.
So part of that is wewe talk a lot in a about
we not only have to teach horsemanship,but we have to teach empathy. Yes.
Yeah.
And people that are learning to rideand people that do ride horses

(01:07:16):
tend to be doing it for their own personalfulfillment and on their own agenda.
and so it, it can become a me,me, me, me, me thing,
with lacking empathy for the horseand also ultimately confusing the horse
because you're you blow right
past his ability to think and understandwhat's happening to him.
Right, right.

(01:07:37):
Well, and and to kind of exacerbatethe issue, we tend to punish or correct
those low level behavioral indicatorsof stress.
Right.
So for example, you're riding a horse
and maybe you're putting too much pressureon the bit or won't let go of the bit.
So they raise their head in the airto try and get away from it.
That's a low level indicator.
Please raise your head in the air insteadof go straight up in the air, right?

(01:08:00):
Yes, yes, but we don't think of thatkind of behavior as an indicator.
So we think of it as likewe don't want that.
We want your head downand inflection or whatever.
And so we tend to punish it
by pulling their head down,getting stronger with the bit.
So I think that really with the empathypiece is, is also understanding
what behavior meanswhen they do certain behaviors.

(01:08:21):
You know what what does a tail swish meanwhen you're riding them.
Or oh he's just being grumpy.That's just you. Yeah.
But what does grumpy mean for a horse.
And why is he that way?
Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.
Well, you know, Sarah,I always love talking to you.
And I always learn something.
And you mention at least three times,
maybe four, that this would be a subjectfor another podcast.

(01:08:44):
So does that mean you'll come backon my podcast again and we'll.
Well, you mightwait to see what your listeners have, but.
All right. Well, if they. Give youa thumbs up, I'd love to be.
Okay. Okay, listeners, there you have it.
And also, I would throw another gantletout to the listeners
if you, would like to have Doctor Matlockback on the show to talk about

(01:09:05):
some of these training methodsand behavioral research.
So let us know in your comments and also
give us some specific thingsthat you would like to hear about.
Sarah mentioned quite a few different sidesubjects that were interesting.
but we'd like to know whatinterests you as well. So,

(01:09:25):
Doctor
Sarah Matlock, we'll look forwardto having you on the show again.
And thank you again for being here today.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
And now it's time for my favorite segment.
What? hey, Q&A.

(01:09:46):
Each month, we pick a few unique questionsfrom our listeners
and answer them on the air.
If you'd like to submit a questionfor what the hey, message me on Facebook
or Instagram at Julie good night or email
podcast at Julie goodnight.com.
The first question for todaycomes from Kayla.
Hi Julie, I have a horse who my trainerand I believe

(01:10:09):
is truly afraidwhen by himself on the trail,
his respirationescalates, his body tenses.
He panics to the point of bolting.
It happens very quickly and we cannot
always identifya specific trigger or pattern.
We have reason to believe thishorse was abused.

(01:10:31):
I've had him for 16 months.
He is making progressexcept in this one particular area.
I've tried groundwork alone on the trail,including changes
of direction, obstacles,and just hiking alone with a buddy.
He is much better, but I'd really liketo be safe riding him alone too.
Will he ever get over this?

(01:10:53):
Am I being impatient?
What else can I do to help him?
Thank you.
I'm going to startwith the impatience part,
and I'm going to saymaybe you are being impatient.
Whenever I hear somebody tell me a storyabout a horse and they say, oh,
you know, I've had them for a year or soor six months or two years or whatever.

(01:11:15):
And the context is that when you firstgot that horse,
he really had big problems,but now he's doing a lot better.
What that tells meis you're making progress with the horse.
And so exceptthat and give the horse time.
So I do
think that having more patience will help.

(01:11:35):
This horsesimply lacks the confidence to leave.
Leave the herd and be alone.
You are not giving the horse what he needs
to gain that confidence,and maybe all he needs is more time.
Maybe all he needsis more rides with the buddy.
But it's a big ask.
You're asking the horse to leave the herd

(01:11:59):
and to stay out there by himself.
And I think wherever possible,you should address these things
a little bit separatelyand keep this point in mind.
Only perfect practice makes perfect.
So for every time you go out on the trailalone and it's a big scary

(01:12:19):
incident on the horse, is worriedand it has a stressful time of it.
If you go out there 100
times, you're going to be practicingthe wrong thing 100 times.
So until you get him out there,when he is in a relaxed,
confident, accepting frame of mind,you're practicing the wrong thing.

(01:12:41):
So first what we have to get is that calmand relaxed, accepting attitude
out on the trail will worry about himbeing alone much later in the deal.
In other words,if he still tense out on the trail
with a buddy,you said he's better with the buddy.
I would want him to be well beyond perfect
with a buddy beforeI'd start working on the being alone part.

(01:13:04):
in terms of you riding out alone
so again,every time you set up a training session
that results in the horse being scared,you're just practicing the horse
being scared.
So also, let me discuss this
thought that you have reason to believethis horse was abused.
I'm just going to tell you,I wouldn't spend a lot of time

(01:13:27):
worrying about that or thinking about itbecause it's academic.
You'll never know the answerand it doesn't
really have a bearing onhow you train this horse.
Just ride the horse underneath.
You just handle the horsethat is present in front of you
in that moment,the past doesn't really matter.
You just need to deal with the moment.

(01:13:47):
Yes, maybe,rough handling or bad experiences
have taken awaythe confidence of the horse,
but it doesn't matter because your job isto instill the horse with new confidence.
He is what he is at this point in time.
So focus on the horse's currentemotionality.
Fear is feardon't matter what its origins are.

(01:14:10):
Your aim is to reduce or diffuse the fearand build the horse's confidence.
You also want to in that process,
build the appropriate habitual responses.
and you want to do that over time.
So focus more on exercisesthat are calming by nature.
Don't do high energy groundworkthat amps the horse up.

(01:14:34):
you rememberyou can't run a horse into calmness.
You can't exercise a horse into calmness.
For many horses, particularlythose of the anxious, tense variety,
the more movement that you ask,or the more amped up they become.
The hotter the more forward they become.
Those horses will never be exercisedinto calmness.

(01:14:56):
It actually amps them up.
So instead,what you want to do is activities
that get the horse addicted to calm,that get the horse addicted to slow.
I've done scores
of live presentations,videos, demos, articles, podcasts.
What have you on this subject ofof getting the horse addicted to calm

(01:15:18):
and, well, for sure.
Throw some links
down in the show notes for youto check out some of those resources.
But you have to teach the horse.
Calm down, cuz, and you have to havea number of different tools,
in order to de-escalatethe emotionality of the horse.
So I would encourage youto ride this horse in company

(01:15:38):
for a very long time, longer than whatyou are thinking.
So build that confidence and habitual
behavior, over time.
And, you want that horse to learn that?
Oh, when we do this,this is the way we're supposed to act.
separately, you can do some groundwork

(01:16:00):
exercisesincreasingly farther away from the barn.
And you can do these by yourself,
to help address the part of the horsebeing alone.
but keep in mindthat you're trying to teach the horse to
to maintain a calm state of mind.
so as soon as he shows any signs of worry,just bring him up, you know?

(01:16:23):
Stop what you're doing.
Slow things down for his head down.
Take a deep breath.
get him back
into a relaxed and acceptingframe of mind.
Remember that returning to the herd
is the reward for calmness and acceptance.
So with a horse like this, as I startincreasingly moving away from the barn,

(01:16:44):
every time he relaxes and gives in and,
sort of, lets go of some of his fear,
I'll take him backcloser to the barn as a reward for that.
So just keep in mind that your exercises,should be engaging with the horse.
Positive fun.
and give you ample opportunityto praise the horse

(01:17:06):
and release it from pressure.
and, you know, again,
check out the show notes and,look at some of the videos, etc.
on, some actual calm downcuz you're going to teach the horse
our next question is from Sue.
Hello, Julie, I have a pressing needand I'm wondering if you can help.

(01:17:28):
I'm going to be leasing a ten yearold paint soon.
I'm working with him on the groundright now and he gets distracted
easily and often looks away from mewhen we're working.
What is the bestnoninvasive way to address this?
Is it covered in a video?
Thanks in advance for your help.

(01:17:48):
So that's a
great question,and it's something you can easily fix.
When a horse is looking aroundexcessively,
it can cause the horseto become more anxious.
There's,a couple of real easy approaches to this.
First of all, I am very clearabout my boundaries for a horse.

(01:18:09):
And in terms of looking aroundwhen I'm either handling, the horse
from the ground or riding the horse, and,I'll get into that in just a minute.
But when the horse is looking aroundexcessively,
it can actually lead to the horsebecoming increasingly anxious.
So often the horsethat's looking around excessively,

(01:18:33):
that horse is feeling frightenedor unsure of its safety,
and it's looking for a wayout of the dilemma it's in.
or it may be worried about something else.
Another horse, a scary thing,an unfamiliar place.
the boogeyman is out thereand going to get him.
So this is a frightened horsethat's looking for alternatives.

(01:18:53):
He's.
He's either looking forwhat is scaring him because he's not sure,
or he's looking for a way out of there.
And generally, it's an indication
that a horse is anxiousand wants to be somewhere else.
In this scenario,the horse is not engaged with you
or responding to your cues or

(01:19:15):
or even thinking about you at all.
I've published a lot of videosand articles and podcasts on this subject
as well.
And again, I'll throw some linksdown in the show notes.
so that you can refer to these resources,
whether you're riding, or on the ground.
As I said, I'm
going to disallow excessivelylooking around, and it's very easy to do.

(01:19:39):
First of all, I want to be I need to bevery clear on what that boundary is.
If I am unclear on it,the horse will never be clear on it.
So for me,
any horse that I'm on the groundwith or riding,
I imagine two parallel lines coming outfrom the horse's point of shoulders.

(01:20:00):
That's a width that's generallyabout as wide as your shoulders.
And so I imagine these two parallel linesgoing forward from there.
And within those two lines, imaginarylines, my horse can move his nose,
as much as he wants, he can look a littlebit to ride, a little bit to the left.
He can see all the way around him fromfrom that position.

(01:20:23):
It is only when the horse crossesthat line, when the nose goes past
the point of shoulder,that I will apply a correction, an
if and I will do it at the exact
instant that nose crosses that line.
I'm very clear on that line,and I'm very clear on the corrections.
So if the horses nose were to turn leftand I was riding that horse,

(01:20:47):
I would just immediately kind of squeezemy right
fingers on contact of the bitso that as the horse
move left,he moved into the pressure of that bit.
I would instantly release itbecause as soon as he hits the pressure,
he comes back.
So I'm just going to take anot even a second let.

(01:21:08):
Well, lessthan a second touch of the horse's mouth,
and as soon as his nose comes backtowards my hand,
I completely release the pressure.
If he then looks right, I'll take the leftrein and give a little correction.
If I'm lying on the ground, I'll takemy lead rope and give him a little bump.
but only when he crosses the line.

(01:21:28):
I'm never going to pull his nose backwith the rain or the rope.
I'm just going to let him kind of moveinto some pressure, some momentary
pressure and this, teaches the horsekind of a couple of different things.
One is it teaches himwhere that boundary is
and that when he crosses that line,he will find pressure.
There, but also at the same time,it teaches him when he brings his nose

(01:21:51):
back to neutral,there is never going to be pressure there.
So if you hold the reinsand pull the reins, this won't work.
If you just touch the mouthwhen it gets to that line.
and the
horse will learn, no, don'tgo cross the line.
And as long as I keep my nosein front of me, there will be no pressure.
So in short order, the horselearns the boundary and it will start.

(01:22:16):
The first thing you'll notice.
And for me, this is going to happenwithin about a minute or two of,
maybe I've done 4 or 5 corrections,I don't know, depending
on how much he's looking around,but in short order, the horse learns
where the boundary is, and you'll noticethe horse will start hesitating
when he gets towards that lineand he starts thinking about it.

(01:22:37):
And when he doesn't cross the line,he doesn't get the pressure.
So even eventually he learns,oh, all I got to do
is keep my nose in between these twolines and everything is good.
Once he is resigned to
not looking around excessively,he will immediately calm down.
It's almost like magicbecause that excessive

(01:22:59):
of looking aroundactually amplifies the horse's anxiety.
But when he brings his noseback to neutral and gives it up,
what he's doing is is accepting wherehe is and he's accepting being with you.
So you'll notice a really big change oncehe learns the boundary.
And then he startskind of correcting himself

(01:23:20):
from crossing that line, you'll startnoticing a very big change in the horse,
and he will completely relaxand the the next phase of this
is that my horse learns to eitherfocus on me or focus on nothing.
He doesn't need to worry about everythingthat's all around him
or or the the mysterious boogeymanhe can't find.

(01:23:44):
He doesn't have to do that anymorebecause he's accepted being here with you,
so it's not hard to do.
Watch some of the videos.
Read some of the articles to make sureyou have all the details accurate.
And, just, just keep the horsefocused on the job ahead of him.
That's, what you want to do.
And and one more little piece of advicein terms of a horse

(01:24:05):
that is easily distracted,
engage the horse in a trained activity.
If you're riding a horsethat has training, he knows how to go.
He knows how to turn.
He knows how to speed up and slow down.
So if you just start riding the horse,he will have to focus on you and
the accused that are you are giving himand will not be so easily distracted.

(01:24:29):
So all of that stuffshould help you out a lot.
And I'm, I'm guessingyou're going to be off to a good start
with your new paint horse andand congratulations.
That's going to be fun.
And the last question today is from Judy.
How do I cope with a horsethat is just lazy instead of loping
when asked, she goes into a bone jarring,very fast trot.

(01:24:52):
Do I just keep pushing her to lope?
Well, Judy, I would say,
right off the bat, that lazy may not bea fair description for this horse.
Maybe she's a quiet and calm horse,and that's great.
We want that. Right.
but when we start kind of using
value judgment terms like lazy,

(01:25:13):
that might be implying a situationthat doesn't really exist.
Most horses that are quote unquote lazy
have often been trained to respondin the wrong way.
In other words, they've gotten a releaseof pressure for not moving.
And, they they've gotten a release
of pressure in a way that trained themthe wrong thing.

(01:25:36):
Horses that are often called lazy
have become non-responsive to the riderfor a lot of reasons,
and that might be the rider is unclear,the riders giving conflicting signals.
The rider, gives up right away
and and therein, reinforces the horsenot responding.

(01:25:57):
Horses are just responding to what you doand and they learn from that.
So when you cue the horse in correctlyor you don't release him
at the right time,or you do release him at the wrong time,
the horse then learns to respondaccording to that.
So it's not really that the horse,you know,
I just would avoid using the term lazy.

(01:26:18):
I know we do it all the time,
but just think that through as you'reas you're labeling a horse like that.
Calm and quiet is good.
We like those horses.
And, you know, so a horse might be,in its temperament, calm and quiet versus
his other horse over herewho's very hot blooded, high energy horse.
And, you know, in general,most of us like the calm and quiet horses.

(01:26:40):
So not let's not put a, negativelabel on that.
And also keep in mindthe horse may be responding
in a way that he'sinadvertently been taught to respond.
So this, by the way, is a very commonproblem with amateur trainers.
Remember, if you are riding or interactingwith a horse in any way,
your training itbecause horses learn fast.

(01:27:02):
So I would say this is simply cueconfusion caused by the rider.
So in your mindyou're cueing the horse to canter,
but in the horse's mindyou're cueing it to go faster at the trot.
And when it does go faster at the trot,
you're actually riding the long trot, soyou're going along with it, so to speak.
In other words, you're condoningthe long trot that tells the horse

(01:27:24):
that what he's doingis what you asked him to do.
So you're inadvertentlyconfusing the horse
and teaching it that the cue to canteris actually the cue to long trot.
So you're comingfrom, opposite directions here.
So the more you cue it to go faster,the more the horses go.
Like, how fast does she think I can try?

(01:27:45):
You know, I'm driving as fast as I can,so here's how you're going to fix this.
it's easy to fix with reinforcementand simply clarifying
the cue and clarifying the responsethat you would like from the horse.
So here's what you're going to do.
Ask the horse to canter from the slow
trot or walk.

(01:28:07):
Hold the horse backas you set the horse up for the lead,
and you kind of go throughyour progression of cues.
in preparation for the canter.
And then right as you ask the horse
decanter, you're going to release himto forward motion.
Obviously, he has to go forward
if the horse does not immediatelystep into the canter,

(01:28:28):
which is not because you've alreadytrained him to go into the fast trot.
What you need to do atthis point is clarify and say,
no, that's not actually what I was askingyou for.
Let's try that again.
No, no, not what I was asking for.
Let's try it again. Let's try it again.Let's try it again.
So the way you sayno, that's not right in that moment.

(01:28:48):
So I just set my horse up
and I showed him to canterand he trotted instead of cantered.
I would immediately shorten both reins,sit back,
check back on the reinsand bring the horse immediately
back to that slow trot or walkwherever I was when I started the cue,
and then I would immediatelyrequire the horse to canter.

(01:29:10):
Do not allow any time to elapse between
when you bring him back to the walkor trot and recompose.
You want to keep the pressureof the cue on the horse,
and you check the horse back
every time it steps into a fast trotand reapply the cue.
Say no.
Reapply, no. Reapply, no. Reapply.
Well, after 2 or 3 times,the horse is realizing,

(01:29:32):
well, this answerI've been giving her every other time.
She was satisfied with itevery other time.
But she's not taking this answer today.
So he starts thinkingfor a different answer,
and eventually he'll step into the canter,because there's not a lot of other
different answers when it comesto speeding up from the trot.
So in this process,

(01:29:53):
you are clarifyingthat fast trot is not the right answer.
That's not the responseyou're looking for.
And then you re-issue the cueand you allow the horse
to start thinking about, well,if it's not that, then what is it?
And and then when the horse doesfinally occurs to the horse to canter,

(01:30:14):
you're just going to kind of canter off,release the pressure of cueing him,
pat him on the neck,loosen the reins, canter, you know,
enough strides to where the horse gets it.
That canter was what you were asking for.
And then stop and don't goright back to it.
I would try to wait for another dayto do that again.
And canter departures and cueing forthe canter are very thoroughly

(01:30:39):
explained in my streaming trainingvideo called canter with confidence.
It's available online.
We'll put a link in the show notes.
It is also thoroughly explainedwith some great exercises
for you to do in my brand new online
training program on riding the Canter.

(01:30:59):
This course has just been released.
none of you hearing this have,seen this material before.
It covers gates, footfalls, and leads.
It covers the most common mistakesriders make at the canter.
How to cue for canter, howto set your horse up for the correct lead.
It covers developingand refining your canter departures

(01:31:20):
collection at the canter.
Speed control, lateral work, lead changesand troubleshooting the canter.
We'll put a link in the show notesto this, brand new cantering program.
And I think that, Judy,
if you want to give that a review, it'sgoing to help you out a lot.
All you need to dois clarify the cues for your horse.
But obviously,before you can do that for your horse,

(01:31:42):
you have to be clear on the keys yourself.
So I would encourageyou to check that out.
Well, that's all we have time for today.
I want to thank you all for listening.
If you have a horse training questionor issue you want me to talk about,
please message me on Facebookor Instagram at Julie

(01:32:05):
good night or email podcast at Julie.
Good night. Dot com.
Next monthI'll be back with a brand new episode.
So if you haven't already,
make sure to hit subscribeso you won't miss a single episode.
And of course, please share!
Ride on with all your horsey friends.
Ride on with Julie.
Good night is available anywhereyou listen to podcasts.

(01:32:28):
If you liked the show, please remember to
give it a five starrating and leave a review.
It means a lot to meand it helps more horse lovers
like you and me find this podcast.
You can find me on Facebook, Instagramand YouTube at Julie.
Good night!
To get even more training adviceand updates
and head to Academy DotJulie goodnight.com

(01:32:51):
for tons of free training resources plusmemberships and online coaching from me.
No matter whereyou are in your horsemanship journey,
whether you're new to horsesor an old hand,
whether you're training a green horseor refining your upper level skills.
I hope you found some helpful informationhere to make your horse life better.

(01:33:15):
I'm Julie goodnight.
Thank you for listeningand please stay safe and enjoy the ride.

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Gentling Mustangs with Positive Reinforcement: Part 2

On Purpose with Jay Shetty