Unwelcome Distractions: When Your Horse Pays Attention to Everything (Except You)

In this episode, I'll talk about teaching a horse to calm down and focus. I teach horses within just a few minutes of training not to look around excessively, and (you've probably heard this a lot!) to “focus on me or focus on nothing.” But why is this important? What's the big deal with letting your horse look around?

 

Horses that are looking excessively are either frantically searching for something to be afraid of, or they are looking for the exit—and have no intention of staying here with you. I'll go over two simple ground manners to teach your horse that will help keep you safe (especially when things go sideways), and can help an anxious or spooky horse become calm and able to focus on me.

 

But before we get to all of that, I’m excited to officially introduce a brand new segment to the podcast called "Long Story Short." I'll kick off each episode by telling you one of my many stories from the early days of my horse training career. Some funny or amusing, others with touches of excitement or inspiration—all have hard-won lessons everyone can benefit from.

 

And in the “What the Hay? Q&A” segment, I’ll answer questions from listeners about about etiquette for correcting bad behavior in someone else’s horse, if horses move into pressure or away from pressure, and about restarting an older horse.

Want your question answered in What the Hay? Email [e-mail]

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
You're an inspiration.
You were there to help me.
You just saw the man said, Can I help you?
We learn a lot from watching other horses
and watching other riders.
I'm Julie. Goodnight.
And thank you for listening to my podcastabout horse training,

(00:23):
equestrian sports and buildinga better connection with your horse.
It's time for Ride On with Julie.
Good night back at the ranch.
Well, by now, most of you've heardthe news that my sweet
little mare,Annie and her on again, off again.
Pregnancy is now on again.

(00:43):
Whoo hoo!
We're so excited.
And it's been a topsy turvy ride,
because first she was tested pregnant,and then she tested not pregnant.
And then on sort of a whim,we tested her again.
And sure enough, she was pregnant.
She's getting biggerevery single day that goes by now.

(01:05):
And even though most maresaren't even showing their pregnancy
at this point, you know, she's onlyfive months into an 11 month gestation.
But Annie is quite small.
She tops out at just 14.0 hands.
The stallions she's bred to, by the way,is the same size.
He's a bit stockier than her little beef.

(01:26):
Beefier, but not any taller,but more than her just being small.
I think it's the factthat she's a extremely compact horse.
She's got a very short back.
And so I just think there's less room
for that foal longitudinally.
In other words, from her noseto her tail from front to back.

(01:49):
So I think that's causing that babyto stick out horizontally more.
But I've been sharing some picturesonline here
and there of how how much her bellysticking out like a pregnant mare.
Now, you can almostsee that baby in there.
And so that makes us even more excited.
Rich has been busyremodeling the nursery stall in the barn.

(02:11):
We've installed the new Annie Cam
in her stall so we can watch her at night.
It records her movementswhen she goes in and out of her
stall or when she lights downand all of that as she eats.
It's hilarious to watch once she comes infrom the pasture in the evening.
First she just guzzles her grain likeshe's never eaten for a week or something.

(02:36):
And after that 90 seconds,it takes for her to guzzle down her grain.
Then she attacks her hay pile
and she starts dragging herhay all around the stall.
She spreads it evenly across the floorlike it's a carpet,
picking out all the little choice morselsthat she likes the best along the way.

(02:58):
And then as the night proceedsand we again,
we're watching all this on videoin the morning and it's hilarious. But
as the night proceeds, she she starts
hoovering up every little last pieceof hay until by morning.
There's not one little shred of evidenceleft.
I can seefrom watching her on the recordings

(03:19):
also that she's laying downa lot at night.
And I'm I feel relieved to see
that sheshe lays down in the middle of her
plush bedded stall and she lays down
several different times during the night.
But again, is interesting

(03:40):
to watch her lay down because she does
do quite a bit of squirmingbefore she plops down onto the ground.
But it's all she kind of lifting up herhind legs one at a time, almost like she's
readjusting that baby in therebefore she plops down to the ground.
So I'm glad that she is laying down in herstall.

(04:00):
I'm glad she's getting that kind of rest.
But also, that's where we hopethat she'll lay down to fall.
So it tells me that she likes her style.
She feels comfortable in thereenough to lay down at night.
So that's good to see.
And it's really funto watch on the camera.
So needless to say, we're super excitedabout the fall coming at the end of April.

(04:24):
The only downside to
this whole breeding thingis that I no longer have a horse to ride.
Sure, my husband and my friends are happyto let me ride their horses,
but that's not really what motivates me.
I like training young horses and,
you know, and while yes,you can ride a pregnant mare
and certainly many people are still ridingmares at this point in their pregnancy.

(04:47):
But honestly, if you saw
how Big Annie isand how she waddles around already,
you really wouldn'twant to ride her either.
But on the upside, this time next month,
Rich and I'll be in Fort Worthto attend the week of horse sales,
which are affiliated with the cuttinghorse futurity that's there every year.

(05:08):
In early December will be looking bothat trained horses and yearlings,
and there are hundreds of horsesthat will be coming across the sale ring
and it's mostly the younger horses
that I'm interested in the yearlings.
So just so I would have somethingto play with

(05:30):
until Annie'sfoal is old enough for training.
That's going to be a few years from now.
But Rich is also looking at another horse,a second horse.
And so he'd be lookingat the trained horses.
So we're going to be really busy.
We're going to go through six, six
different catalog sales, one each daywe're there.

(05:51):
So it's going to be busy.
We'll get a lot of steps in.
And even if we don't buy a horse,
we really have a lot of funlooking at horses
and lusting after all the horseswe could never afford.
But so it'll be a fun week.
And Fort Worth,this is fabulous place to visit.
We'll be staying right in Old Townat the stockyards.

(06:13):
And it's just a good timeand visiting friends there too.
Even as I'm working on this recording,I'm also busy packing my bags
and heading east to attend equine
affairein West Springfield, Massachusetts.
This is the big daddyof all horse expos in this country anyway,

(06:35):
and this will be my first time back theresince 2019
and the pandemic causeda little disruption to the horse expo.
All kinds of trade show businessis, I suppose.
So I'm super excited to be headed backthere.
I'm going to be seeinga lot of old friends

(06:56):
that I've known for years,
and I look forwardto meeting some new people to
so just had to Julie goodnight dotcom slash events
to get more informationon all of my upcoming events
and be the first to knowwhen the new ones are added.
When you sign up for my weekly newsletterat Julie Goodnight dot com slash news

(07:18):
you'll also get brand new training
articles and podcast episodesas soon as they're released.
Exclusive deals and updates from me.
You can also find me on my social media.
I'm at Julie Goodnighton Facebook, Instagram and YouTube.

(07:41):
And now it's time for a brand newssegment.
In the podcast.
Before we dive into today's topic,
I'll start off by sharing a horsetraining story of my own with you.
So now I'm excited to officially introducelong story short, today
I want to tell you about a half Arab horse

(08:02):
I was training about 25, 30 years ago
when when I was quitenew in my training business.
And this was a very cute
little Pinto half Arab gelding.
I will say he had a lot of whiteah, this horse did.
He was mostly whitewith a little bit of chestnut,

(08:23):
and he was three years old
when he came to meto be started under saddle.
And he was,you know, had some halter training.
But I but minimally, he'd been handledand whatnot.
He was gentle,
but he was,
shall we say, a clean slateas far as training went.

(08:44):
He was the get of an Arabian stallionI had trained years before,
and that horse was a really coolhorse would be the great subject
for another story,another long story short.
But he like his daddy.
This little gelding was sweet and gentle,

(09:04):
but unlike the stallion,he was extremely flighty.
This little pinto, half Arab.
He was way beyond suspicious
and more of whatI've come to call superstitious.
So there's this certainkind of horse temperament

(09:25):
out there that I refer to superstitious.
And again, it's just ahorse is a little bit beyond suspicious
and kind of they think everything's outto kill them until proven differently.
And thesethese horses tend to be a little sensitive
and a little flighty doesn'tnecessarily mean they're bad horses.
In fact, my husband's horsecurrently is a superstitious horse.

(09:49):
When when something is unfamiliar to him,
he just alwaysthinks it's going to kill him
and hecan go from 0 to 10 instantaneously.
Now you can get him back real easybecause he's a well-trained horse.
All you got to do is take all of them.
Go. No, no, Think about this.
We will figure it out and he'll comply.

(10:12):
But a lot of times these superstitious
horses, too,they end up creating their own reality.
And that was certainly the casewith this little Pinto gelding.
And I'll give you an example of thatin a minute.
But these superstitious horses are ones
that tend to see more bogies than normal

(10:32):
and the way that they tendto create their own reality
is they think something let's say
something in a is going to attack them.
Now, let's say let's say
you're trying to teach this horseto walk over a tarp
and he's like snorting and smokecoming out his nose and he's scared

(10:55):
and he's trying to leave and he's on his,you know, whatever.
And time goes by and you work with him andhe finally puts his foot on that thing.
And then sure enough, that thing snags
on the heel of his shoe and he pulls backand the thing starts following him.
Now he's pulling back the thingschasing him.
That's what I mean bythey create their own reality.
And so I'll give you an example specificto the little Pinto where

(11:20):
he you know, when I first startedworking with this horse,
I got no interest in riding a horsethat is spooking
and running over the top of youwhile you're leading him from the ground.
If if he's spooking and runningover the top of me while I'm leading him
from the ground up, pretty sure he'sgoing to be a handful of I'm on his back.
So I would I always start at the beginningand work my way forward.

(11:44):
And so I was trying to developnot just ground manners in this horse
and create a dialog dogwherein I tell him to do something
and he responds where he startslooking to me for cues.
But I was also tryingto create some confidence
in him and teach him not to be so spooky.

(12:04):
So toward that end, I mean, you couldit was the easiest horse in the world
to set up challenges for because you coulddo you could do anything,
you know, draw a line in the sandand he would speak at it.
And so one day
I had some groundpulls out like two or three ground pulls.
And our mission for that day waswe were just going to walk

(12:26):
calmly over the ground poles,staying in a proper position
beside me and not jumping on top of meor running through them or bulky,
you know,or throwing a fit about the ground poles.
And I was schooling himhard on his proper leading manners
and staying in a specific positionnext to me.

(12:48):
And we proceed over the ground poles
and with all the courage in the worldthat this little horse could muster,
he slowly picks up one front foot
and he sets it over the pole.
But then he has a second thought about itand he goes to pull his foot back.

(13:08):
And as he pulls his foot back,the toe of his foot scoops up the pole.
The pole flops upand hits him in the belly
and scares the bejesus out of him.
And he just blows out and runs over thetop, clinks through the rest of the poles.
And he created his own reality

(13:30):
in that he was suspicious about this pole.
And sure enough, when he put his foot overit, that pole attacked him
and so
that's not even the storythat I had to tell about this colt.
That was just an example of howflighty and spooky this little guy was.
Now, as a side thing,

(13:53):
you know, I've always wondered,
I I've had some experience training Arabsand early in my career, actually,
I trained quite a few,but I never was involved in showing them.
And I wasn't that familiar with the wayArabs were trained
and the way they performed in shows.

(14:13):
But I did notice that they always hadthese horses
real arched in the neck,super over, framed in my mind
with their faces way behind the verticalwhen they were riding.
Now that that went against my grain
and went against the grain of my trainingand everything that I'd been taught

(14:35):
to do in riding,in particular classical riding.
And so I really struggled to ride
and train Arabs properly in that regard,because to me,
when a horse starts comingbehind the vertical, I drive them into it.
So I pushed them out of it and I that justhappens automatically in my body.
I couldn't really stop it.

(14:56):
And then and then I realized I didn'treally want to ride that way anyway.
So I just it was justsomething that I notice was different.
Well, I and certainly they're beautiful
and the and those horses,you know, are so elegantly
built in the front end that
usually that super archedneck is easy for a

(15:18):
So that was just somethingon the side thing
that I had always kind of puzzled me.
And so one day I've progressed
with this little geldingand I'm riding him by now and
you know, we're working in the big arena,the walk and trot, canter
But every day he's spokenat something every day now,

(15:43):
like he's been out in this arena for,you know, a month or two.
And every day he speaks at something.
And I was just kind ofgetting fed up with it.
And so this one day
I go out to the arenaand I'm riding this cold
and I just I just had reached my limiton his speaking.
And I said to myself and to the horse,

(16:06):
my goodness, we are going to go
one time around this arena todaywithout speaking.
If it kills me, we were ifif I will, I will stay out here all day
until you go one time aroundthis arena without spooking.
And Iand I was mad and I took a hold of him.
And in my impatience,I gathered up those reins.

(16:29):
Ty I asked him to places Chan squarelyon his chest and around the pen.
We went with his head down so low
that he was staring at the dirtright in front of him.
And by George, he did not spook
or even raise his head or tense a muzzleall the way around.

(16:50):
And then I realizedI had this lightbulb moment
where I realizedby not allowing him to look around,
he failed to find anythingto be superstitious about.
You know, back in the old days,it was a common training technique
to blindfold horses
as a way to make them helpless,to make them dependent and submissive.

(17:11):
And when you blind the horse,you as effective, fully
take away his fly response.
He might run blindlyif if you allowed him to,
but you know, it definitely would causethat kind of response in a horse.
But today we have much better waysof doing things and a greater
understanding of the horse'sinstinctive behaviors.

(17:33):
And these kinds of tacticsare rarely used anymore.
However, by inhibiting this flighty horses
ability to look around excessively,
I hit on the very thing he needed to beable to keep his fear at bay.
So since then,
by the way, decades have passed since then

(17:54):
and I've worked with hundreds of horses,maybe thousands of horses,
and I've seen time and time againand almost every clinic
I do, and almost every timeI'm working with horses,
that when it comes to the horsesthat are consumed with anxiety,
they tend to be looking all about

(18:16):
looking away from the handlers, sometimesacting as if they don't see the handler.
They're looking outside the pen,they're searching their surrounding
on a trail ride.
They're working themselves up into a tizzyin this process
and countless times, countless times
I've seen these very same horsescalm down within minutes

(18:40):
and become focused and happy and calm
when you curtail their frantic searching.
And this brings me to today's topic
teaching a horse to calm down and focus,
or as I like to call it, kindergartenfor horses.

(19:01):
You don't go to kindergarten to learnhow to do algebra and chemistry.
By the way, kindergarten teachesyoung students to sit at their desks,
to keep their hands to themselves,to walk in a single file line,
and to raise your handwhen you want to talk.
In my kindergarten for horses,
I teach them to standstill when I ask them to.

(19:22):
Not moving around impulsively wheneverthey want, I teach them to keep their nose
in front of their chest at all timeswhen they're being handled or ridden.
And to me, these are very simple,fundamental ground manners
that make a horse safeand enjoyable to be around.
In this
process, the horse will come to understand

(19:42):
that there are clearexpectations of their behavior.
They'll learn important boundaries,and they'll learn to focus on me
and shut out all the distractionsin their surroundings.
Then that sounds pretty good.
Also in my
What the Hey Q&A segmentat the end of this episode,

(20:03):
I'll answer questions from listenersabout etiquette
for correcting bad behaviorin someone else's horse.
If horses move into pressureor away from pressure,
and about restarting an older horse.

(20:24):
Now let's get started on today's topic.
You've heard metalk about this a lot in my podcast
and my blog and tons of YouTube videos.
I teach horses withinjust a few minutes of training,
not to look around excessivelyand to either, quote,

(20:45):
focus on me or focus on nothing.
Y. Well, you know, horses that are looking
excessively around are really franticallysearching for something to be afraid of.
Their anxiety is getting the best of them,
or sometimesthey're actually looking for an exit.

(21:06):
They're looking for the best wayout of this situation.
They don't want to be.
And in that
case, when they're looking for an exit,it's also telling you
that this horse has absolutelyno intention of staying here with you.
So there's very little trainingthat's going to happen
with a horse that is looking for the exit.

(21:27):
He he has no commitment to being with you,let alone want to be with you.
So I often refer to what I call the darkalley at night theory.
So just imagine, if you would,that you're alone in a strange city.
It's light at nightand you are walking down a dark alley

(21:51):
and you're walking along and it's creepyand you're hearing little noises here
and they're behind you and all of a suddensomething behind you kind of bangs.
And so you glance back and you sort of
pick up your paceand walk a little bit faster.
And then you look back againand you walk a little bit faster.

(22:13):
Pretty soon you're thinking about,I can't wait to get out of this situation.
I'm getting more and more scared or I'mimagining there's something behind me now.
Next thing you know, you're running fullblast down the alley as fast as you go.
And that's often
how a horse's fear will progress.
So they they startkind of frantically looking around

(22:36):
because they're frightened.
And the more they look around,
the more frantic they become,the more frightened they become.
And so it'swhat sometimes the behaviorists refer
to as a functional circle of behavior.
So they're just sort of trappedin this behavior
where things are getting scarierand scarier and scarier by the minute.

(22:57):
And by the way, no training.
Again, as I said, notraining is going to occur.
No communication back and forthis going to occur while horses mind is
is so busily involved in this
this frantic kind of searching behavior.
So I have found like a sharedwith the story of the little Heifer

(23:20):
Pinto gelding
that when you decidehow this excessive looking around,
it also bringsit does a couple of different things
to the horses state of mind.
One is they quit searchingand they immediately
come to a place of calmness.

(23:41):
So that's the main benefit from it.
So now instead of running downthat dark alley
and letting the fear buildand build and build,
they are just out of the dark alleyand they're in a safe place
and they're you're no longer hearingand imagining all those things.
So it brings them to a calmer stateright away.

(24:03):
And so you get almost an immediate reward.
It's a reward for you and a reward
for the horse, by the way,because no horse wants to feel afraid.
No horse likes having that kind of anxietyin its life.
It's just thatthey don't really know the way out of it.
One of the other thingsthat happens in this process
is that the horse beginsto look to you for protection.

(24:27):
The horse begins to look to youas the safe place to be.
You seem to be in control of things.
And they also, in their
learningof what you're expecting from them.
I'll explain that process in a minute.
As the horse starts learning thatthere are boundaries, he has to abide by

(24:48):
that disallow him from looking aroundand he starts calming down
because he doesn't have that
gasoline being thrown on the fireof that surging behavior.
Then the next thing that happensis he starts looking to you
and that's what you actually want.
So instead of himbeing as a distracted horse

(25:09):
that's frantically looking aroundand building in anxiety, he's
now a calmer horsewho is looking to you for all the answers.
And that's exactly what you want.
So what are my expectations of a horsein terms of not looking around?
And I know you know, tosome of you that might sound a lot

(25:30):
like what I was talking
about earlier back in the daywhen they used to blindfold horses.
But no, I'm not doing anythingto inhibit the horse's vision at all.
I, I have very clear boundariesand clear expected
portions of the horse's behaviorthat I can communicate to him
really literally within seconds,if I've got a halter and a lead rope

(25:53):
and first of all, let's talkabout the clear boundaries.
So I like to imaginewhen I'm handling a horse either
from the ground or I'm riding the horseand I'm up on his back from the saddle.
I imaginethat there are two parallel lines
coming out forwardfrom his point of shoulder on each side.
Now, the width of your horsespoint of shoulders

(26:15):
is pretty similar to yourthe width of your shoulders.
So if you just yourselfimagine two parallel lines
coming out from your shoulders.
Those are the boundaries for my horse'snose.
He has to keep his nosewithin those two lines.
And I am very clearon where that those lines are in my mind.

(26:38):
And any time he crosses that line,if I'm on the ground,
I'm just going to bubblerope a little bit, bump the halter,
and if I'm in the saddle,I'm just going to bomb the opposite range.
So in other words, when his nose crossesthat line, he meets a boundary.
The rain is not going with you.
And same thing with the halter.

(26:59):
When he crosses that line.
I'm actually the minutehis nose is crossing the line, I'm
just going to kind of bump upa little bit on the rope.
So he meets a boundary there.
Also, I'm not pulling I'mjust giving a slight bump of the lead
or a slight bump of the rain,which has a built in release to it.
So as soon as the horse feelsthat boundary,

(27:22):
he brings his nose back towards centerand he's already
gotten a releaseas he comes back towards center.
So that's why he learns
he can learn lightning fastwhere these boundaries are.
And so and again,if you're if your timing is good
and your pressure is appropriate,

(27:43):
within seconds, literally,the horse will learn
where that line is and you'll see himstart thinking about it.
Well, now he's thinking so at least he'snot frantically searching about anymore.
He starts to think about the boundary.
He's starting to think about what you'redoing in relationship to what he's doing.
In other words, he'sbecoming engaged with you.

(28:04):
And in very short order,
he starts moving his nose towardsthe boundary, then bringing it back.
He starts self-correcting.
And in that process he learns even more.
He learns the bump will not comeif he doesn't cross the line.
And then he starts gaining confidencebecause he feels like he's
starting to understandthat there is a boundary there.

(28:27):
And when I act a certain way,this will happen.
But when I act another way,everything's good for me.
And so that gives himeven more confidence.
And now he's thinkingall in the right direction along with you.
And pretty soon he just stopslooking around and drops ahead and takes

(28:47):
a deep breath and he's like, okay,I seem to be stuck here in this situation.
But you know what?
I understand this situation.
It feels safe to me.
This person setting the boundariesseems like she knows what she's doing.
She's very clear.
I can trust that her behaviorwill be consistent and appropriate

(29:08):
and that I'll get this when I do that,and I'll get that when I do this.
And so the horse starts buildingconfidence and all this way
again,if you're up in the saddle, same process.
So just bump the opposite ride untilthe horse's nose comes back to center.
Do not pull on the rain.
Do not try to hold the horse's nose.

(29:30):
Do not try to prevent himfrom crossing a line.
Just simply correct him when you do so.
The end resultis that when you rule out excessive
looking about the horses,anxiety diminishes.
Within a few minutes,the horse shifts his focus to you

(29:52):
or he just kind of zones out
a little bitin that way that we love horses to do.
You know, for instance,let's say I'm riding my horse
and I stop to talk to somebody,or maybe I stop to get something
out of my packand and do something I would like.

(30:12):
My horse is kind ofput his head down and check out.
I don't want to be busy with his feed.
I don't want him looking all around.
I want him to just kind of patiently wait.
They're not thinking about much at alland arresting his brain
a little bit until I'm readyto ask him to do something.
So we love it when horsesjust kind of check out
and be patientwhen when we need them to wait on us.

(30:35):
So you'll you'll notice these kinds ofchanges in the horse right away.
The horse's posture will change.
You'll see a much calmer demeanor.
You'll see a willingness
not just to stay here with you,but to actually want to be with you
because it feels safe

(30:56):
and the horse will have more interestin you and what you are doing
then in all his surroundings around him.
So remember, the purpose of this exercise
is not to limitthe horse's ability to see things
because the way the horses
eyes are on the side of his headand the way that he's got that super

(31:19):
long neck stretch in that big old widehead out front of him,
all he has to do is slightly turn his nose
in either direction to be ableto see a complete 360 around him.
So we're not doing anythingthat limits or prohibits
the ability of the horseto see 360 degrees around him.

(31:39):
It's just the excessive looking about thatwe are dealing with.
And that has a waywhen you when you rule out that excessive
looking around has a way of pullingthat horse back from the brink of anxiety
and pulling him backfrom a hyperactive imagination.

(32:01):
As I said, no horse wants to
be afraid and anxious,but they are fear based animals.
And to me, training is often about
giving the horse toolsto manage its own anxiety, to teach him
where calmness is and to teach himthat he can trust me to keep him safe.
Those are the main principlesof my training,

(32:22):
particularly with a nervous or a horsewith a high fear level.
So once a horse has learnedto stay calm and focused,
which can literally happenwithin a few minutes,
if your timing is good andand if you use the appropriate pressure.
But once you've done that,you won't need these corrections anymore.
Once the horse trustsyou enough and understands

(32:44):
your clear boundariesand you're clear expectations,
he finds safety and comfortin being with you.
And all of that searching behaviorjust goes away.
I hope that helps you understanda little more about why your horse's
focus and calmness is importantand how you can achieve it.
Now, let's switch gears.

(33:06):
I'd like to spotlight some of your stories
from our horse Goals or best program.
In my blog this month,I shared my own goals and accomplishments
with you both in my horse lifeand in my personal adventures.
If you subscribe to my newsletter,you've already seen all of that.
It's been incredibly rewarding to meto hear all of your stories

(33:28):
you've shared with methis year, both the highs and the lows.
And and I love hearingnot only about your accomplishments,
but about your setbacks, too,and how you've overcome them.
And for me
to be a part of your journey has reallyjust been super fun and rewarding.
So here are just a few highlightsfrom our tribe.

(33:49):
These are stories shared on our horsegoals Robust Facebook group.
And you might want to check out the shownotes for links to that Facebook group.
So our first story comes from Susan,and she says, Good morning.
I'm proud to share that my goalthis summer was to make
four solo excursionswith my best friend Huey.

(34:13):
This morning, we will complete that goal.
A trail ride meet up in the ShenandoahMountains.
Each excursion has been fantastic,and I realized that the hardest part
for me is hearing him whinnyin the trailer when I go over a bump.
We've made so much progress in our ridingand in our relationship.
This summer I'll be seeing Julie at C LazyU on October 5th.

(34:38):
And indeed she did.
And I love thisbecause I love the specific goal
that Susan had of doingfour solo excursions with her horse.
And wow, what an accomplishment.
And, you know,the planning that went into it
and the goal setting from the beginningwas such a big part of that.

(34:59):
And we enjoyed having you at the clinicat Sea Lazy You as well.
And I hope that just capped offyour riding season.
Susan So thanks for sharing.
And next,another one of my favorite stories
comes from Nancyand Nancy is someone I know.
Well, you'll you'll hear why in a minute.
But Nancy says, I'm happy to reportthat I've completed my primary goal

(35:23):
for this yearriding with Julie in Ireland.
I continued to second guess myselfup to the very last minute,
wonderingif I'd done enough pre trip prep, i.e.
time spent in the saddle and on fitness.
As it turned out,I had no problem keeping up
with the younger folksand felt very confident in the saddle.

(35:44):
It was truly an amazing journeyon so many levels, meeting amazing
women, experiencing the stunningIrish countryside and special cultural.
And let's not forget ridingbeautiful Connemara ponies.
Special thanks to Julie, T Cody and Coach.
Now I'm going to brag on Nancy,by the way.

(36:05):
She's includedthis incredibly beautiful photograph
of her sitting on this Connemarapony on the ocean.
And you will see that she's a lovely rider
and you won't be able to see itin this photograph.
And Nancy's not shy about sharing her age,but she's well into her seventies

(36:27):
and she was the oldest person on theon the tour by more than a few years.
So when she said she was worried about it,you can see why.
But I have to say, she was oneof the fittest people on the ride.
She was one of the best riders on the rideand she had a great time.
So it was fabulous.
She got along great with her horseand she certainly could keep up with

(36:52):
with the toughest of us.
So that was fun to have her.
Also, someone I've known for a whilehad in clinics and one of my online
coaching students, Marty and Marty,actually sent in three updates.
Marty is always very thorough and Marty
says, I am a 71 year old post total kneereplacement rider

(37:15):
who wasn't terribly adventurousin the best of times.
All I've been doing is walkingand some trotting in an arena or ring.
Groundwork is no problem.
Yesterday, on the way to the barn,I listened to Julie's most recent podcast
and she mentioned riding any bareback,so I decided to hop on my pony Nigel

(37:36):
with just a bareback padsince he is easy to mount.
Using a mounting block, we did a lot ofwalking in a teeny bit of trotting.
I've made myself a goalof riding the English dressage
test A and B bareback just for my own fun.
Then she sent a second update. This said.
Today I wrote the intro.
A test totally bareback.

(37:58):
No, Pat, I probably won't do that againat least without my riding pads.
It wasn't pretty.
Not great patterns.
And he broke gaitand a trotted 20 meters circle.
But we did it.
Next up, Intro Band then our final update today
I did intro test A and B,

(38:20):
The geometry wasn't, but we did it.
Intro C you say it won't happen,
will not be cantering bareback,but I accomplished my goals.
So good for you, Marty.
Yes. You might not think of yourselfas adventurous, but you are persistent
and you always set great goalsand then you go out and do them.

(38:40):
So I say that puts youin the adventurous category.
Next story comes from Lynn,
and she says, I did itmy second show in a Lifetime.
I'm not sure there will be a third,but I made my goal for this year.
I love that one.
And then finally, we'll hear from Debra.

(39:01):
And she says, When I startedworking on my horse goals for this year,
I was still having some anxietyabout riding my mare with people
I didn't know because I was never surehow she would react.
I was determined to continue buildingthe trust between us
so that I could participate in a clinicwith Julie.
Goodnight in Marchand then participate in at least two

(39:24):
trail challenged rides with a clubI joined.
This past weekendI rode in my third Trail Challenge ride
with the TexasTrail Challenge Club at a spectacular
ranch near I.A., Texas.
Each ridehas been better than the previous.
My mare is findingcalm as we go down the trail.

(39:45):
And while we may not always dowell on some of the obstacles,
she'salways willing to give it a try for me.
On the ride this past weekend,one of the obstacles was in hand
where we had to send slashlead our horse into the ditch
along the trailwhile we stayed on the trail
and then have the horsestop straight at the marker.

(40:07):
Because of the skills I learned from Julieduring the clinic this year
and from following her online, my mare
and I received a perfect scoreat this obstacle.
It was nice to get a good score.
It was great to see howwell my horse paid attention to my cues
and what we were doing.
Doing well onthe obstacles is not part of my goals.

(40:28):
Building the trust with my horse is
I'm signed up for one more trial challengeride this year.
So I've met my goal and then some.
Thank you to Juliefor setting up this program.
I feel like it's helped me really feelconfident about my work with my horse
and encouraged me to keep goingeven when I had a setback.

(40:48):
Wow. Deborah, that was an
awesome story and it justI can't even begin to tell you
how much it thrills me thatI had some small part in your challenge.
I remember
you and your horse from the clinicand what a nice, lovely pair you made
and your story certainly is inspirational,although not surprising

(41:11):
because you're an ambitious rider,so that's awesome to hear.
And finally,we have a story from Fay, and she says,
So my goal this year was simple Ridemy horse bareback.
I set up a plan, talked with my trainer,and then fractured my wrist.
In February, falling on black ice.

(41:31):
Then May came alongand I started riding again with caution,
but noticed things had changedbetween my gelding and myself.
My confidence was not there anymore,
and it took many weeks to find it again.
Then the spook happened
and lack of confidence returned.
But we ventured out of propertyon a couple of trail rides,

(41:54):
and I found the courageto sit on my horse bareback
and now I know that riding on his backwithout a saddle is very uncomfortable.
And I need to set a new goalfor next year.
I don't consider it a bust,but a lesson learned.
Julie, thanks for always sharingyour stories and inspiration.
Also,congratulations on Annie's pregnancy.

(42:14):
Looking forward to next year andI just want to say, Fay, I love that story
and I do love it that you, you slippedon the ice and broke your wrist.
But I think it's an important realiststick story for everyone.
First of all, I think it's hilariousthat you said you needed the goal
because your horse is notcomfortable to ride bareback.

(42:36):
That's a
good thing to work out on your goalsworksheet.
But I just I appreciate your candor
on how challenging confidencecan be after an injury.
Even though the injury had nothingto do with riding and also
how your horse respondswhen your confidence wanes
and how hard that is to turn around.

(42:58):
But you did that.
So I think far from being a bustthat you did learn a lot
and you learnedhow to regain your confidence
and you learn how important that isfor your horse.
So I say you scored a big onethis year on your goals.
So I look forward to hearing moreabout your goals for next year.

(43:26):
And now it's time for my favorite segment.
What the Hey Q&A.
Each month we pick a few
unique questions from our listenersand answer them on the air.
If you'd like to submit a questionfor what the Hey,
please message me on Facebook at JulieGood night or email podcast at Julie.

(43:47):
Good night dot com.
The first questiontoday comes from Juliana.
Hi Julie and Julie's team.
I would love some feedbackon the etiquette of correcting poor
or disobedient behaviorwhen leasing a horse
and the horse's owner is aroundand appears to do things differently.

(44:08):
Parenthesesas in under correcting, in my opinion.
I am also wondering what is appropriatewhen riding a friend's horse
or travelingand riding someone else's horse.
My assumptionis to not do much differently.
So I guess my follow up question is

(44:28):
how do I get over my fearand hyper awareness
of the owner's thoughtsand feelings about my horsemanship?
I find myself correcting behaviorsdifferently when they are around.
I think my lack of experience with horses
is making me lack confidence in this area.
Any words of wisdom you can share?

(44:50):
Thank you so much.
And I love your podcast.
Well, thank you, Julianna.
And you know,
correcting other people'shorses is definitely a touchy subject.
And I think while I think it's goodthat you ask and it's something
that we can kind of discussetiquette wise in terms of how it relates

(45:14):
to your confidence and your concernabout other people judging you.
I think that's a separate subjectand possibly one
you might be more qualifiedto answer than me.
But when it comes to correctingother people's horses, you know, keep in
mind, first and foremost, that any horse'srelationship with a person
is based on that individual.

(45:36):
And horses are perfectly capable
of acting one way around one personand differently for someone else.
They're more clever than peoplein this regard.
You know, it's not at all uncommon to see
a horse as very,very naughty for his owner.
But in the trainers presence,the horse is a perfect angel.

(45:57):
Horses are very discerning
about people and their differences.
So just because the owner of the horse,
let's say if I'm reading youryour message correctly, you're a
the horse is more indulgentand allows certain behaviors.
I guess some maybe allows the horseto crowd space or put his mouth on

(46:20):
or whatever, something that you disallow
in your relationship with that horsethat horse will learn.
It can act one way around one person, buthe has to act differently around another.
Now, is this great for the horse? No.
And do horses prefer consistency?
Absolutely.
Do horses have better behavior
and less anxiety when they're handledconsistently by all people?

(46:43):
Absolutely.
Without question.
That is true.
So it's not a good situation.
But in the situation you're in,I would just bite your tongue
and look the other way when you're dealingwith the horse's owner.
Hopefully she's not around much.
If it gets to the pointthat the horses behavior is so compromised

(47:05):
that it's deteriorated to the pointof the horse being unsafe or unpleasant,
then this might not be a tenableleasing situation.
You might have to look elsewhere.
So I learned a long time ago
that there's nothingI can do to help people
if they're not interested inand asking for my help.

(47:27):
It's very frustrating, especially when
I see somebodydoing something dangerous with a horse
or even when I just see a messy matterthat I could easily clear up
with just a little bit of information,but without fail.
When you offersomebody unwanted advice about a horse,
it falls on deaf ears or worse,they take it out on you

(47:50):
or they take it out on the horseor they close their mind to help.
So It's it's been a lesson
I've learned again and again and againthroughout my career.
I've learned it pretty thoroughly by now.
But there are still there are still timeswhen the temptation is great
to want to try to help someone,but if they're not asking for help,

(48:11):
it ain't going to happen.
You know, for me it's a little differentgiven that I'm
a professional horse trainer,and in most instances,
if I'm dealing with a horse, it'sbecause they're looking for my help.
I be handling a horsethat someone didn't ask me to.
But any horse that I handle, I'mgoing to train the same way,

(48:33):
including corrections for bad behavioror for crossing boundaries
or anything that in my mind is unsafeor unmanned early.
So boundaries are a great example of this.
If I'm around a horseand that horse invades
my personal boundary,I'm going to instantly defend my boundary.

(48:55):
So the horse is going to instantly knowhe's not allowed to come that close to me.
And any horse I engage with
is going to learnthat about me within a minute.
And oddly enough, horses
like that, because when things are clear
and easy to understand,horses are a lot happier and a lot calmer.

(49:17):
So, you know, that's going to be somethingthat is sorted out between the horse.
And I just immediately and I wouldn'tI wouldn't stop defending my boundary
just because I was worriedabout offending the owner or whatever.
If I didn't think I had the credibility
of standing to correct the horse,I wouldn't be near him.

(49:38):
Once I'm engaged with the horse,I'm going to handle the horse my way.
But again, that is generally
a situationwhere somebody has asked for my help.
So peer to peer.
And if you're just riding a friend'shorse, I would just ask them,
How do you want me to handlethe situation?
Is there anything specialI need to know about your horse?

(50:00):
How does he like the Q for Canter
or tell me, you know,give me as much information as you can.
And the horse's owner, by the way,has the greatest responsibility
to protect your horseand to maintain its training and manner.
So she should be forthcoming and proactiveand giving you
all the information on how to handlecertain situations for the horse.

(50:21):
Now, worrying about other peoplethink of you
or how they are judging you.
That's a whole separate subject.
I get what you're saying,that it's awkward
when you're in this kind of situationwhere you're riding somebody
else's horse and that somebody elseis standing right there watching you.
I know.

(50:43):
I mean, I can relate to that another way.
It's like when you're docking a boat,you're bringing a big boat into a marina,
and there are a dozen peoplestanding on the dock watching you,
wonderingif you're going to succeed or fail.
Are you going to hit the dock orare you going to just drive it in smoothly
and, you know,they're all watching and and,

(51:06):
you know,they're secretly hoping to see a wreck.
And, you know,they're all forming an opinion,
particularly if you happen to bea female captain of the boat.
They're all forming an opinionon whether or not
you have the credibilityto drive that boat.
So, like, I totally get what you'rewhat you're saying.
But I think that's somethingthat can can be addressed just,

(51:29):
you know, through a lot of introspection
and maybe listening to some confidencebuilding things.
But the truth is you have no control over
what somebody else thinks at all,let alone what they think about you.
And the truth is, it doesn't really matterwhat they think about you.
What really matters iswhat you think about you.

(51:52):
Do you feel like you're doing thingsright?
Do you have a full understanding
of the situationthat you're dealing with with the horse?
Do you have confidence in your abilityto handle that situation?
And if you ask yourself all thosequestions and the answer to them is yes,
then you have no need to worry about what

(52:13):
other people think because, you know,you're on the right track.
So I think that it's great
if we can handle all situationswith that much confidence.
And I know that'ssometimes challenging to do,
but that's the way I look at itand that's what I try to do in situations
I do care about whatother people think about me,

(52:34):
but if I have confidence in myselfand I feel good about the way
I'm doing things and about how I couldor would justify the job,
then I have far less concern about whatsomebody else thinks.
So don't forget Julianna.
It's a lifelong journeyyou're on, no matter how soon or late

(52:56):
you get started on this horsemanshipthing,
you will be continually learning.
So keep studying,keep finding your skills.
But you should also be growingin your confidence as you gain
more experience on different horses anddifferent situations as I know you have.
Then you will also be gaining confidencein your ability and your knowledge.

(53:20):
So keep an open mind to newand different ways of doing things,
but be your own judgeof what techniques you use
and what gives you success andwhat you feel the most confident about.
Our next question is from Ann.
I have read a lot about the fact thathorses learn from release of pressure,
and timing is critical as describedin one of your great articles.

(53:45):
However, I've also read that horses
are quote, into pressure unquote animals
and that they move towards pressure.
So I'm confused.
I've watched different videos of peopleteaching horses to move towards
the mounting block, for example,and some tap the horse

(54:05):
on the near sidehip and others on the offside.
So does it really matterwhich you use as long
as you stop the tappingwhen the horse gives the right response?
Thanks in advance.
I tried to keep thisas succinct as possible,
but this was the best I could do.
Well, first of all, let me say and you did
a stellar job at keeping this succinct

(54:28):
and there is just enough informationthere for me to answer your question,
but not too much that it takes me20 minutes to read it.
Also, it cracks me up your question
because I remember reading decades ago
something about horses being into pressureanimals,

(54:49):
and I remember specifichow much that confused me.
Now, I was already a horse trainerby then and
I was studyingand consuming information on behavior
and training as much as I could,as well as practicing it on a daily basis.
And I remember reading somewhereI do not believe it was from a behavior

(55:10):
textbook or a research paper.
I believe it might have even beenfrom Monty Robert's book or something
like that, where a statement was madeabout horses being into pressure animals.
I'm pretty sure it was not a behaviorist,because that's not generally
how things would be stated by behaviorist.
But I was also puzzled by that,and I spent a lot of time

(55:35):
thinking it through and researching,and I came to the following conclusion.
As I like to often say inclinics, most of what I teach
is stuff I learned from someone else.
Not any one. Someone else.
But many, many, many, many someone else's.
And I have very few original thoughts.

(55:56):
But when I do have original thoughts,I like to claim.
So this is something that I thoughtthrough myself.
I've not seen this specifically addressedin any kind of equine
behavior research that I've seen,but this is what I think I know.
What is the difference betweeninto pressure and away from pressure

(56:17):
animals and our horsesone or the other or both?
Well, I came, you know, short story isI came to the conclusion
that horses are both into pressureand away from pressure animals.
Now, let's think about it in this way.
The number one characteristic and the mostdefining characteristic of the horse

(56:37):
is that he is a flight animal.
So flight is the horse'smost compelling response to danger.
Now, would you say flight is
moving into pressureor away from pressure?
Well, to me, I think it'sclearly moving away from pressure.
Right?
So the pressure iswhatever is frightening the horse
and the fly responds involves a 180 degree

(56:59):
turn and runningas fast as you can away from that thing.
So that's an away from pressure response.
But think about the horsethat is kicking another horse.
Think about the bully or dominant
horse who's actuallykicking double barrels at another horse
and backing into himand squealing at the same time.

(57:23):
Is that horse moving into pressureor away from pressure?
Is moving into pressure.
So if I walk up next to a horse
and startlethe horse and the horse startles
because he didn't see meor he didn't notice me, there, and
I suddenly reached out, touchedhim, and he kicked out at me.

(57:43):
Is he moving
in to pressure or away from pressure?
Well, in that moment he's movinginto pressure when he kicks out at me.
But the next thing that follows is himrunning away because he was startled.
So he's moving away from pressure.
So this is the way that I startedthinking this through.

(58:03):
So some responses are into pressure,while other responses
are moving away from pressure.
Now, there are many behaviors of the horsethat are moving into pressure.
Kicking is one.
If you've ever seen a marin heatthat wants to lean her hip
against something or back into something

(58:23):
that is an instinctive urge,
she feels around reproductionand wanting to
move into the stallionor back into the stallion.
So that's moving into pressure.
Also, horses mutually groom each other
and they use pretty heavy

(58:46):
massaging pressure with their teeth,
deep pressuremassaging of their body horse.
And again,that horse is moving into pressure horses.
Sometimes when you train, teach horsesto, let's say,
hold their feet up for the farrier,they learn to lean and push on you.

(59:06):
Horses do like to lean and push and pull,
but they also move away from pressurein certain instances.
Now, me give you a couple more waysto think about pressure.
First, let me give you anotherreally great example
of of how horses can be into pressureanimals.

(59:27):
If you've ever been around young foals,they love to be scratched and petted
and they will learn to moveand to you and push in to you
to get you to scratch them.
And they like to be scratched hard.
So in very short order,
if you mishandle a foal,

(59:48):
you teach them to push on youand lean on you and move into pressure.
Now, keep in mind
that most trained responses
in the adult ridinghorse are going to involve that horse
moving away from pressure,preferably the lightest pressure you.

(01:00:10):
We also call that yielding to pressure.
So giving to pressure,moving away from pressure.
Now, as we raise that young baby horse
and we unknowingly over handle him, overdesensitize him
and scratch on him to the pointwhere we teach him to
lean, lean in,to pressure and move into pressure.

(01:00:32):
And then when it comestime to train that horse to be ridden,
everything we're going to be teaching
the horse involves itmoving away from light pressure.
We have set up a terrible dynamic there.
So, yes, horseslearn through pressure and release
and they learn by making associations

(01:00:52):
between a cue, which is the pressure
and a response.
And that's, by the way, where the timingand using the adequate amount
of pressure comes into play.
So let's understand first and foremost
that there is an important distinction
between a learned response

(01:01:13):
and instinctive behavior.
So when that startledhorse kicked out at me
because he was unexpectedlytouched on the side
in that moment,he was moving into pressure.
But when I startled himand he turned around and ran
away from me,he was moving away from pressure.
And that was all donethrough instinctive behavior.

(01:01:38):
But if the horse learns that
when he moves towards me,
I will scratch himand reward him with a pleasurable feeling.
Then he learns to moveand to pressure when you touch him.
So that's a learned response.

(01:01:59):
And so this is the ageold question of nature versus nurture.
We have a pretty good understandlearning of the instinctive behaviors
of horses by now,and I'm sure there's more to be learned.
But when you have a pretty thoroughunderstanding
of a horse's instinctive behavior,it makes it slightly easier
to distinguish between learned behaviorand instinctive behavior.

(01:02:21):
So instinctive behaviors
are those behaviorsthat were virtually fully formed at birth,
and learned behaviors are everythingthat comes after that.
And then the horse, the learned behaviors
happen fast and from the youngest age.
So horses are learning machinesthroughout their entire life,
but they learn at the greatest ratewhen they're young and know nothing.

(01:02:45):
So they're learning every secondof every day and with every interaction
they may.
And so it's very easy to create
a learned responsein a young horse to move into pressure.
So, you
know, one more just quick thingto understand about pressure.
The pressure that we use on horsesis that there's also a difference

(01:03:08):
in my mind between static pressureand dynamic pressure.
So static means unchangingand dynamic means constantly changing.
So if I go up and I say,
well,let me give you a real common example.
Let's say I pick up a horse's front footand I'm holding it up

(01:03:31):
like I'm cleaning it,or like the farrier is trimming it.
And if I'm leaning pressure onto the horse
in a static way while I'm hold that foot.
Pretty soon that horsewill start leaning back into me.
And any time you just put static,
unchanging pressure on a horse,he will start moving into it.

(01:03:56):
But when you
use dynamic, pulsating pressure,
which can be infinitely lighter than thatstatic pressure,
you would just using a minute ago,the horse will move easily away from it.
So let's say I'm grooming a horse
and I want him to step away from me.
He's maybe crowded me tooclose to the fence or something

(01:04:20):
and I need him to step away to the side.
So I take my index finger
and I just lightly touch his hairsat his rib cage and.
And maybe the skin.
And I just give a little pulsating
pressure there on his ribs.
And then maybe I clock.

(01:04:42):
He will easily step away from that.
But if I go over thereand I put my whole hand on that horse's
rib and I just start pushing in to itin a static way,
he'll start actuallyleaning in to me before he'll step away.
So that is also anotherreally sort of intricate way for you
to think about this in the pressureand away from pressure.

(01:05:06):
Think about horses.
Horses tend to move into staticor unchanging pressure,
yet they move away from lightand dynamic pressure.
They old,
you know, a little fly lands on his haircoat and shake that part of his body.
That's that'skind of the idea that we're getting there.

(01:05:26):
So thanks for thatVery excellent question.
So our final question today comesfrom Sheila, and she says, Hi, Julie.
I have a horse that I purchasedin the spring of 2020
from a gentleman who said he bought himfrom a feed yard in Kansas.
So, by the way, that was three years agoshe purchased this horse.

(01:05:47):
I have watched your daily doseof horsemanship videos on YouTube
and I have your training videosalong with a library membership
to your training library.
I listened to your podcast and did,as you suggested in an episode
to try to get the background informationof his previous training
and how much he had been riddenbefore I bought him.

(01:06:07):
I found out that he was indeedbriefly at a feed yard.
He had injured his backleg and was sold in a quick sale,
then sold again to the gentlemanI bought him from.
In looking into his past further,
I found that he was involvedin a case of animal neglect
and hoarding situation that resulted injail time for the offenders.

(01:06:28):
I found thathe was head shy and not very trusting.
I have spent a lot of timejust getting him to let me approach him.
He is now a ten year old geldingand the low man in our herd.
My question for you is,would you restart this horse differently?
Could you reference a good place to start?
I'm afraid of coming across to himas too aggressive

(01:06:51):
and losing all of the progressthat we have made.
I value your opinion.
Thank you for your time, Sheila.
Now, again, Sheila was somewhat succincthere.
Succinct enoughthat I don't really know what she's done
other than address this issue of himbeing difficult to approach.

(01:07:12):
And also, if I read between the lines,
she's had this horse for three years.
And so if after three years
you are thinking about restarting,
then I would say you have not madeadequate progress with this horse.
And and that that ties into somethingI've been seeing lately

(01:07:35):
at some clinicsthat I've done training clinics.
I've done.
So I want to get into thatfor a moment, in a moment.
But so what?
I do something differently.
Yes, I think I would.
And I will explain
your question.
Could you reference a good place to start?
I think is a good one,and I'll answer that.
But what do you say?

(01:07:55):
I'm afraid of coming across
as too aggressive and losingall of the progress that we have made.
It really doesn't sound to melike you've made much progress.
And so I think you know, horse trainers
would never have that kind of timeframein order to make progress with a horse.
You, as the customer,would never pay a horse trainer for that

(01:08:16):
long to have not madesome very significant training.
I would expect after three yearsof training to have a trained
finished horse in spite of the horsecoming with some challenges.
So let me just
clarify some of my thinking here.
First of all,
I'm going to use air quotes here,

(01:08:38):
but restartingdoesn't really mean much to me.
And so therefore,having a specific entry point or
let's see how you phrase it,a good reference place to start.
I always evaluate each horse
on its own behavior on the

(01:08:58):
to my interactions with the horse.
I would also factor in the horse's age,its temperament and its history.
Whatever I to know or whatever youyou the owner have to know.
I would put all of that together,but mostly
I would go on what's right in front of meat that moment

(01:09:20):
and how the horse is respondingin the moment that I'm engaging him.
So another reason why restarting doesa really mean much to me is that to me
there is a very specific priority,
or you might think of it as a hierarchy
as to what's important to mein terms of handling and riding a horse.

(01:09:42):
And when I say what's important to me,I mean in terms of the horse's
cooperation, the horse's acceptance,
its calmness, its ability to think
and how safe the horse is to be around.
So all of these things
to me create a hierarchy of training.

(01:10:06):
So, for example, if a horse is not wellmannered and safe and pleasant
to handle from the ground, I'mnot really that interested in riding in.
So as I talked about the very beginning
of this podcastwith the young Pinto Arabian,
when he's blowing upand having panic attacks

(01:10:26):
from the groundand running over the top of me,
I'm really not interestedin riding a horse
that's behaving in that waywith me on the ground.
So I would start there if the youngster
is being started under saddle
and it's still kicking out at the saddle
and bucking the saddle again,I'm not very interested in riding him.

(01:10:49):
So he could have been ridden previously.
So you could tell meand show me concrete evidence
that the horse was broke and trained.
But if I'm getting that reaction heretoday, when I put the saddle on him,
I'm not interested in getting on himuntil we work through that problem.
So toward this end,

(01:11:10):
I would restart every single horse
I encountered by plugging awaythrough the basics
until I found a sticky place.
You know, you can use the red light,green, light, yellow light theory.
I would start from the beginningjust handling the horse from the ground,
asking him to do this.Asking me to do that.

(01:11:31):
Do that.
Plugging away through the basicsuntil I hit a yellow light or a red light.
And any time I hit
a place of resistance, I want to workthrough that point of resistance.
Moving on now, there might occasionally bean exemption to that.
Like, let's say, let's say this horse,you said this horse's Hadji.

(01:11:53):
So let's say
I'm moving alongin this evaluation process
and everything else is greenlight, green light, green light.
But I got to put that bridle on andhe shows me he is indeed very head shy.
Well, that'spossibly going to take a while.
The horse is going to have to get betterat that over time.
And I might just figure out a way

(01:12:16):
to get that bridle onand then proceed with my evaluation.
Making note that we need to work on that.
We need a training planto work on that hedge on us.
But if I was still getting green lightsbeyond the head
shyness, I would still keep goingon the rest of it.
But if I if I made a pointof great resistance with the horse,
I want to work through that beforemoving on.

(01:12:39):
And that's probably what you've been doingfor the last three years.
But let me give you some foodfor thought on this deal.
And this
is specificallyregarding some recent horses
I've worked and clinicsthat kind of sound to me like it
may relate to your situation in terms

(01:12:59):
of not really making significant progresswith this horse.
So you've got a horsethat is not interested in people
probably has good reason,but he's not interested in you.
But want to quote,
give him time to come to me.
So and this these are the situations

(01:13:22):
I've seen recentlywith a couple of similar situations,
one involving a very, very young horsethat just not even halter broke yet,
and another onethat's in under saddle training.
So if you have a horsethat has a good reason
not to want to be around peopleand you approach it with giving the horse

(01:13:47):
time to come to youor to wait until he accepts you,
you have to be willing to accept the factthat that may never happen.
He has no reasonto want to be with people.
Give him one reason why he should do that.
So there are situations where
when a horse is you mentionedthe horse does not want to be approached.

(01:14:12):
So I guess that means he's hard to catchand you can't catch him and approach him.
You can't really do any training with him.
So if I could
just force this issue this one time
and get that halter on that horseand get him caught,
and then in doing that,I can get past his point of resist
and prove to himbeyond a shadow of a doubt

(01:14:36):
that I am good for him.
Then in a matter of hoursor days or weeks,
I've move past that one issueand I'm really moving forward
with the horse's trainingbecause I lay hands on him.
I can pet em, I can reward him, I canI can add pressure.

(01:14:57):
I can take pressure away.
The horse begins learning the begins.
We begin developing trust with each otherand creating a dialog between us.
And all of that came about because just onthat one instance, I forced the issue.
So let me give you a specific examplewith this yearling
colt that I was helping with recently.

(01:15:18):
Now, this colt had been transportedby different people
halfway across the countrywithout even really being halter broke.
So hehe kind of got jerked off his home farm
and herded into a trailerand hauled a certain distance
and then unloaded into a panand then another trailer back then.

(01:15:39):
And they ran him into the trailer again.
And so this this went on twoor three times until he got to Colorado.
And needless to say,he wanted nothing to do with people.
And so the person that was training
this horse there, herher first goal was to really
just get a halter on the horseand begin halter training. It.

(01:16:00):
And, you know,nothing can really be accomplished until
you can lay hands on the horse.
So she had the horse in a small catch pen.
I mean, really small.
I'm going to say, you know,not even ten feet across.
And she was doing some advance and retreat

(01:16:23):
where she would approach the horse.
And if the horse would turnand look at her, she'd walk away.
And that was good.
And then sheshe kind of did that a little bit
too much without advancing,getting closer and closer to the horse.
And so what happens?
And if you if you do too many repetitions
in an advanceand retreat desensitizing scenario,

(01:16:47):
if you do too many repetitionswithout advancing further,
then the horse just starts thinkinghe's training you to go away from him.
So that horse you could seethe horse was starting to learn,
Oh, all I got to do is look at herand she goes away.
So that's what you wantthe horse to learn at first.
But then you want to go fartherand farther, Closer and closer

(01:17:08):
to the horse to where you're touching him.
And you want to kind of do that
every time, advancingand gaining territory with every approach.
But she spent too long reinforcingthat and him going away from her
so that she basically just trainedthat response at them.
Well, then she started doingthe same thing with the halter
and she would approach with the halterlike she was going to put it on.

(01:17:31):
And then if he would move towards
it, move his nose towards the halter,she would take it away and.
Walk away. Now, that's good.
And classic release of pressurein an advance and retreat scenario.
However, what happened was she continued
making repetitionafter repetition, after repetition,

(01:17:54):
without advancing the halteronto the horse.
So that essentiallywhat began to happen was
she was training the horseto pull away from the halter
and there there were several points
as I was watching along the way,where she had opportunities

(01:18:16):
to kind of snagthat horse into the halter.
And from thereshe could have significantly advanced
the horse's training, but she instead,the horse set the agenda and
basically just succeeded
in really training the horseto pull away from her.
So over time,

(01:18:38):
she basically was teaching this horseto never be caught
because of how much time she was givingwithout asking a little bit
more from the horse,a little bit more concession.
So same thing I saw happened recently
with somebodywe were working on saddling horses for the

(01:18:58):
for the very first time and all thedesensitizing that has to occur there.
And basically with just
a little bit of inaccurate technique,
instead of training this horse to acceptthe saddle being put on its back,
she training the horse to pull awayfrom the saddle being put on its back.

(01:19:20):
And through multiple repetitions of that,
the horse was just simply respondingin the way she was training it to do,
which was every time I approached you withthe saddle, you should run away from it.
And so we just kind of tweaked things upa little bit.
We had to make that horsemomentarily uncomfortable

(01:19:41):
so that he would learnthat the saddle sitting on his back
was not going to hurt him
and that we were going to takecare of him in that way. So
I think that
you have to advance
with these kinds of techniques,

(01:20:01):
and sometimes you will have to
advance more than the horseis willing to volunteer for.
So your horse has no reason to like peopleand he never will
if he won't let you catch himand approach him and put your hands on him
and teach him that he can be safe with you

(01:20:21):
and that he can actually enjoybeing with you.
So I think you have to look for waysto draw him in
by releasing pressure when he approaches.
But always keep advancing your agendaand always keep
asking for greater concessions from him.
Like I said, as a horse trainer,we would have moved past this

(01:20:42):
probably with himin the first week of training.
And it it wewe may have had to force the agenda.
And by that, I mean, you know,I may have with that little yearling colt,
I would have just snagged him with thehalter so that then had the ability to,
you know, be connected to him

(01:21:03):
in a way that I could actually train himand teach him something.
So, you know, in extreme cases,as mentioned
with the blindfolding thing,sometimes in extreme cases, food and water
is actually withheld from a horseand only given to the horse by a human.
And this can be a highly effective wayof teaching a horse

(01:21:24):
to not only accept humans presence,
but to like the humans presence.
But that's pretty extreme.
And while I recognize why
this tactic would work, it'snot really something I would do.
I'd probably push that horse to the point
where I can actually lay hands on him,

(01:21:48):
and that might push hima little bit momentarily.
But once I can lay handson him and he learns that
and he learns
that he doesn't get to leavewhenever he wants,
then I can go to work and then I can startlooking for bigger concessions from.
The horse knowing that onceI can touch him and handle him,

(01:22:09):
he'll learn to like me and I can teach himeverything you need to know
for us to get along well fairly quickly.
But I might have had to push pastthat one of resistance in the beginning.
So I hope that helps is it's hardto give you
specifica point of reference or departure point.
You have to just just deal with the horsesin front of you

(01:22:33):
and work through points of resistance.
But Always keep advancing the agenda.
Well, that's all we have time for today.
I want to thank you for listening.
Next month, I'll be backwith another brand new episode.

(01:22:53):
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(01:23:14):
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(01:23:34):
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(01:23:58):
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(01:24:20):
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I'm Julie. Goodnight.
Thank you again for listeningand please stay safe and enjoy the ride.