October 12, 2025 • 37 mins
🎧 Listen now: https://risefromtheashespodcast.com/home - Available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, and iHeartRadio
What happens when a 20-minute errand becomes a lifetime of grief? Carol Hodges thought she was picking up her daughter from acting class. She came home to find Corinne hanging outside the kitchen window.
This isn't just another mental illness story. It's a mother's brutal journey through gaslighting, failed systems, and the devastating reality that "tough love" doesn't work when suicide is real.
"I didn't think she'd do that. I thought she was too selfish." - Her husband's words as their daughter lay in a coma.
Join Baz Porter on Rise from the Ashes as Carol maps the long road from a thriving career and marriage to discovering forged documents, rescuing an emaciated daughter from New York, and learning why bringing food matters more than perfect words.
Key Moments:
• [6:50] The forged document that revealed years of gaslighting
• [12:13] Flying cross-country to pack up a daughter's shattered life
• [23:06] The day everything changed in 20 minutes
• [29:10] What actually helps when grief becomes your teacher
Keywords: Mental illness, grief, gaslighting, suicide prevention, mother's story, Baz Porter, Rise from the Ashes
If you're navigating mental illness or supporting someone who is, this episode offers hard-earned wisdom about spotting the signs, building safety plans, and why simple presence trumps advice.
If You’ve Been Hooked on These Episodes… This Is for You
If this podcast has been landing deep… if each story feels like it’s peeling back something raw and real in you… then don’t ignore that.
Every guest you’ve heard made the same decision: to stop performing and start healing.
Now it’s your turn.
Take the Silent Collapse Diagnostic. It’s not a quiz. It’s a wake-up tool for women who are done pretending they’re fine.
No fluff. No journaling prompts. Just a straight-up mirror into where you’re silently collapsing behind the mask of success.
If you're serious about reclaiming your energy, your clarity, your life start there.
Because breakthrough doesn’t begin with doing more. It begins with finally seeing what’s been stealing your power.
Learn more about Baz Porter at www.bazporter.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:04):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another
episode of Rise and EpicPodcast.
I am so privileged to introducemy next guest.
She has come through trial'stribulation into peace and
liberation.
My name is Carol Hodges.
Carol, please say hello, helppeople put you on Carol Hodges.
SPEAKER_02 (00:31):
And I found this light down there because I have
lights with all that experience.
We've allowed this lightbackwards and give it to the
thought.
And what do I have?
(00:53):
Either you may begin to wonder,who am I now?
As you're facing the last halfof life, and retirement's coming
up, you're getting older, or youhave the opportunity to see to
look back at your life, connectthe dots in a way where you can
(01:15):
say, I get it.
This is why I'm here.
This is what I came to do.
Because each of us are livingour own lives.
We're all the only personlooking through your eyes is
you.
That's it.
No one else can actually liveyour life.
(01:38):
But I am here because I realizethat the more we share, the more
that we begin to understand thatwe're we're not alone.
I don't think there's a personon this planet who reaches
midlife and hasn't hadchallenges.
And some more extreme thanothers.
(01:59):
But yours are your own and thereto learn from.
So that's why I have beenwilling to share things that
have gone on in my life becausethey finally make some sense to
me.
Things they may have hidden fora long time.
There was a purpose.
I now I get it.
SPEAKER_01 (02:21):
I love that.
And it's that eureka momentwe'll get into a bit later.
I want to give the audience andthat person listening now a bit
of context to what some onlyguess at, and that's some
adversity.
Can we go back in time a fewyears?
A moment, if you will.
(02:42):
And can you share a bit abouthow this was all for this
movement of yours was formed?
Because there's always a what Ifound with these interviews and
these conversations, there'salways a spark.
And that spark comes often notin a good place, it comes from a
very challenging place in ourlives.
(03:04):
But the result of it can createmiracles.
Do you believe you could shareabout that challenging
environment that you experiencedas much as you wish, and as much
as you want to share?
SPEAKER_02 (03:18):
Yes, and I'd like to start by saying I started out
with good things in mind.
Okay, college graduate andlooking for all the best in
life.
And got married, had three kids.
And I remember when I was in myearly 40s, and I was in musical
(03:44):
theater, I was dancing, I hadthings going on.
I was part of my parish.
And I remember that we had acouple's event where we came in
and shared what was going on inour lives.
It stuck with me that there wasone man who looked at me and
said, You will always just havevelvet bumps.
(04:07):
And then life hit, and they werenot velvets.
I was in business with myhusband at the time.
And part of what began happeningis I was taking care of the
finances, the details, and thebusiness, and I began to realize
(04:30):
it's some something seemed off.
He would tell me that certainthings had happened, we had
certain agreements, and Ithought that's not what I
remember.
And I began to question myself.
(05:12):
When I have something to talk tomy husband about, we had an
agreement that we would talkabout business at the office.
And in general, that's a greatthing.
Makes sense.
Except then the days that Ineeded to talk to him, he
started not showing up until 245 when I had to leave.
(05:34):
And I had that commitment, mykids are waiting, I would leave.
This went on for quite a while.
And I'm gonna jump all over alittle place.
So many things were happening atonce, but I began to realize we
were having difficulties, and Ibegan to realize that we needed
(05:57):
to talk to a therapist.
And then one day I discoveredsomething that really upset me.
And I found that my husbandpulled out some documents.
He said, Here's the agreementwith the date on it that I've
been telling you about.
(06:17):
Because I kept questioning.
I looked at it and I knewimmediately something was wrong.
Because for a period of time, wehad a certain, we had someone
hired and we had a special wordprocessor.
So someone else had to type itin and it came out and it only
(06:38):
had certain print.
And that word processor is whatevery document came out for
those several years.
They were all on that wordprocessor.
There was not another agreementthat could have come out.
And what he had handed me cameout, and it had been done on a
computer.
It was a different print.
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
Yep, understandably.
SPEAKER_02 (07:11):
And when presenting that, my husband blew up, ran
out of there.
And the therapist looked at meand understood what had been
going on.
I did not understand the meaningof the word gaslighting until
then, because when someone doesthat, happens is you're
(07:34):
questioning yourself.
I'm hearing this, I trust thisperson.
What the heck is going on?
I must be losing my mind.
The therapist presented me witha book called People of the Lie.
It is a very powerful bookbecause I began, then I could
(07:56):
understand him.
People of the lie is about thosewho they say something that is
not factual because they saidit.
Because it came out of theirmouth, they understand it.
That is the truth.
So suddenly his truth and mytruth were two different things,
(08:21):
completely.
SPEAKER_01 (08:22):
What did that feel like in the moment?
Were you vindicated that youfeel relief, that it wasn't you
going completely crazy, or wasthere a all of this was really
just to say, am I losing mymind?
SPEAKER_02 (08:39):
And so I was beginning to not trust myself.
And that's why I was becomingabsolutely a whiz at
investigating and trying to findthe truth.
When I got that and I began tounderstand, I also understood
the danger of what it producesfor everybody else around them.
(09:06):
And so then I was still facedwith what to do, and that wasn't
the only problem I was facing.
Our oldest daughter was 25 yearsold.
And we had during the good timesbeen able to send her to NYU
(09:28):
across the country because I'min San Diego, was in Los Angeles
at the time.
So we were sending her to NYU,and she graduated from there,
Sumacum Laude.
Now she was also an extremelytalented dancer.
She danced before she left ourarea.
(09:52):
And then when she got to NewYork, she was an understudy with
the Merse Cunningham Company.
That is an internationalcompany, so she was really a
very talented dancer.
And after graduation, she wasbeginning to look for a job.
(10:16):
But all she really wanted to dowas dance.
One of the issues became thatwhat she loved to dance was a
more obscure modern dance.
It wasn't roquettes, it wasn'tstuff of things that were
available in New York City thatwere well-paying jobs.
It was a more obscure form ofexpressionistic dance.
(10:42):
And I just wanted to supporther, but more and more crazy
things began happening.
I had been back to visit her atone time, and she had a very
little studio apartment.
But just outside the apartment,she had this one little corner
(11:04):
of the kitchen and it was a bigwindow.
And outside that window was abeautiful tree.
And I thought, oh, this is good.
At least she's in New York City,but she can look out and see
nature.
One day she called me just tosay they were cutting down the
tree.
(11:24):
I don't know why, I don't knowhow.
(11:53):
One day she said, I cut my hair.
And I said, Oh, what does itlook like?
I bet it's cute.
She said, No, I shaved my head.
SPEAKER_00 (12:08):
Hello.
SPEAKER_02 (12:11):
This was in the 1990s, like 1995.
That was not in.
Perhaps some places you can dothat these days.
I was shocked for somebodylooking for a job unless you
have cancer.
(12:31):
No one shaved their head at thattime.
SPEAKER_01 (12:36):
These were early warning signs, were they?
SPEAKER_02 (12:40):
Yeah, absolutely early warning signs.
And then there was a period oftime she disappeared.
At one point she finally said, Iwant to come home.
(13:00):
And I thought, great, that thebest thing I can do is get her
home right now.
And yet she said, I can't do itmyself.
So I flew.
I hopped on a plane and flew onan overnight, got there in the
morning and went straight to herapartment.
(13:22):
I got up to her apartment and Ihad to bang on the door.
And she finally opened the doorand she was emaciated.
She was thin as a dancer, but Iwas looking at somebody who was
close to being a skeleton.
unknown (13:42):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:44):
And so I got boxes and began just packing up her
things, just putting everythingI could.
Thank heavens, it was a smallstudio, but I was still, I was
just packing everything intoboxes.
unknown (13:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:01):
And during that day, we went out for food and stopped
at the coffee shop.
And while waiting for the food,she kept looking at me, saying,
Everybody's staring at me.
(14:24):
And they weren't, but she startssaying, I have to get out of
here.
Everybody's staring at me.
So she picked up and took off.
I threw some money on the tablefor the food, grabbed what I
could, and went after her,racking her down to the street,
(14:44):
and finally catching her.
And you know, she she's cryingand sobbing and getting her back
to the her apartment.
I finished packing theapartment, and she laid on the
floor in a fetal position thewhole time.
SPEAKER_01 (15:05):
As a mother or as a human being, it's been
incredibly difficult to witnessand bear.
SPEAKER_02 (15:15):
It was one of those, all I could think of is how am I
going to do this?
How will I get her out of here?
And so the it was getting to bethe end of the day.
And we have things packed, and Iknow I've got to get her out of
there.
(15:36):
So I had a flight plan, and Ihad to talk to her next door
neighbor and said they can'tcome until next week to pick
this up.
Can you let them in?
And they were already, they'dsee my daughter crewing crying
and all.
So they were already aware ofsome of the issue.
So they said they would do that.
(15:59):
And I got her to come down witha lot of effort to come down to
get into the car to go to theairport.
And on the way to the airport,she starts smoking, and the cab
driver is saying, There's nosmoking in the car.
(16:20):
Just let her smoke.
Because I was just hanging on,hoping that she'd stay in the
car till I could get her to theairport.
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:30):
So we got to the airport.
We had no luggage, everythingwas just packed.
It's all I could do just to gether on board.
And as we start coming up tocheck in, she sits down on the
floor and starts yelling, theplane is going to crash.
(16:55):
Okay.
This was a time of tightsecurity, and this was not going
to be easy to get her onto theplane.
I finally went up and said, Ineed help.
My daughter is not well.
I need help getting her on theplane.
SPEAKER_01 (17:10):
That took courage for you even to do that.
To ask for the support youneeded in that moment took
extreme courage.
SPEAKER_02 (17:21):
I couldn't think of anything else I could do.
It's like I can't do this bymyself.
I don't know how to get her on.
And they called some police,come, and they talked to her,
and she said, I don't want toleave.
And I said, Everything is packedup.
She doesn't have an apartmentanymore.
(17:42):
I need to get her home.
And so they talked to her andthey just said, You don't have
any place to go.
And they stayed there until Igot her on the plane.
And I felt blessed that once Igot her into the plane, she just
pulled a blanket over her headand didn't say anything the rest
(18:05):
of the flight.
I didn't know what was going tohappen.
So we got back to the WestCoast.
And before we got off the plane,I called her father and said, I
had one suitcase.
And I said, just come as closeas you can to the gate.
(18:29):
I just need to get her in thecar.
He said, How about luggage?
I said, don't worry about it.
That can just stay later.
It will be all I can do just toget her into the car.
So he did that.
We came up front, managed to gether in the car, and I said, have
it set up.
We went, Scott, we were inNorthern California, then we
(18:50):
went to Stanford.
They had a Stanford PsychiatricCenter.
We went straight there from theairport and had to wait for
quite a while.
We got there and she's verycalm.
And I thought, I was just on twored-eye flights, packed up my
(19:12):
daughter's place, tracked heraround, got her there.
I had not eaten, I had notcombed my hair.
And I began to realize ifanybody looked like a crazy
person, it was probably me.
I know this can happen.
(19:34):
They took my daughter in, talkedto her by herself, came out and
said, We think she's just havinga little bit of parental
disagreement.
We probably need some familycounseling.
(19:57):
I went ballistic and I said, I'msure at that point they really
thought I was the crazy onebecause I couldn't believe it.
That's what happened.
And we took her home.
She managed to stay there forabout three weeks.
(20:20):
A friend, all she had at thatpoint, because she didn't have
any money, but she still had aworking credit card.
And so she charged a ticket togo back to New York.
Even though all of her thingswere en route to our house.
She talked a friend into takingher to the airport.
(20:44):
And she flew back to New York,and we did not hear from her for
two months.
We did not know what hadhappened to her.
Now I can't even describe.
So I already had things going onwith my husband.
And now another layer.
(21:07):
And I couldn't even talk topeople about this.
It was like there was nobody whocould even understand because it
didn't make any sense to me.
None of it made any sense.
And she was gone a good threemonths.
(21:31):
I found out a little bit sincethen.
It was just about a year and ahalf ago.
Someone who I did not knowreached out to me and said, Are
you Corinne's mom?
And I said, Yeah.
And he said, I knew Kareem.
(21:54):
And it made me feel good becauseI found out he had offered her a
place to live.
And yet he'd come home fromwork, and he was just a friend
that she knew from high school.
He came home from work, and Iguess he had another roommate as
well who said she'd been in thebathroom crying all day long.
(22:17):
And then I guess she he wouldn'thave known that because she
became whether you call itnormal or stoic or whatever, but
she didn't cry around him.
So he wanted her to tell all thepieces that the story fit.
(22:38):
But after three months, one dayshe called and said, I want to
come home.
And we bought her a ticket.
And she came home.
SPEAKER_01 (22:50):
On her own accord.
SPEAKER_02 (22:52):
On her own accord.
SPEAKER_01 (22:53):
Wow, that was a leap forward.
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
A leap forward.
And so we just welcomed her andjust let her live at home.
She found a place to dancebecause dancing is her passion.
And at the time we had to sharea car.
(23:19):
So this was another strange timein life.
Because what was going on at thetime is every morning she would
say, Can I have the car?
Because she wanted to go intothe city and dance.
At that point, our business wasgoing so far south, and I had
(23:39):
resigned from the business, butI was taking temp jobs.
The reason I was taking tempjobs is we didn't have the
nothing was coming from thebusiness.
SPEAKER_00 (23:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:54):
And I needed the money for groceries.
I found temp jobs, and I wouldjust go into whatever office
would hire me and make somemoney, and so I could buy
groceries that week.
And meanwhile, Corrine hadfinally we found a psychologist,
(24:22):
and so he would see her, and wecould really, I think it was
every other week because we hadto pay.
I did not know of any way atthat point.
We didn't have insurance.
I didn't know any other way topay for this.
So I was squeezing out grocerymonies and a psychologist.
(24:46):
And he began to, he gave hersome drugs for this to get her
out of depression.
But and some days she would takeit and some days she would.
Each morning we'd wake up andyou'd say, Good morning.
Some days she would say, goodmorning back.
(25:09):
Some days she would slam thedoor in your face.
You would not know.
And then we go around the littlerace of who how to use the car.
And so often I would let her useit.
I said, But I need to get to myjob.
So if you can drop me off, thenyou need to drop me off and pick
(25:31):
me up, and then you can use thecar in between.
And whenever I said no, it wasjust how this is how we were
living for months.
But one of the other things withthe car that you would often say
is, if I can't use the car, I'llkill myself.
(25:52):
I knew she meant it.
And I had friends who weretrying to understand, but all
they friends would tell me,tough love.
I think this is this is furtherthan tough love.
I really did not know.
And I knew that she meant itwhen she said, if I can't have
it, I'll kill myself.
(26:16):
But as apparently, my husbanddidn't believe her.
He was in his own little world.
He didn't believe her.
SPEAKER_01 (26:26):
Where was your husband's support?
Sorry.
Where was your husband's supportat this time?
Where was your support system?
SPEAKER_02 (26:36):
The closest I had was friends.
SPEAKER_01 (26:40):
Was that enough?
SPEAKER_02 (26:42):
No, it wasn't.
Because none of this made sense.
As I say, friends couldn'tunderstand.
They said, just be strict withher.
It's like, oh, in what way?
This is beyond.
This is so far beyond.
SPEAKER_01 (26:59):
What happened during the and we fast forward now
going through this?
Your husband's checked outemotionally by the sounds of
things.
I'm not trying to put words inyour mouth at all.
SPEAKER_00 (27:09):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (27:10):
You have a daughter that is unstable and by the
sounds of things, from what I'mhearing, mentally ill at a very
internal level.
Yes.
What happens after how does allthis come to a head?
Because I can feel it coming toa head.
SPEAKER_02 (27:28):
Yeah.
It came to a head one daybecause my other two children, I
was doing my best for them.
They were suffering too.
Yeah.
So one day I went to pick up myyounger daughter, who was 16 at
the time, and I had to pick herup.
She would take a train up to thecity, and she was in a class for
actors up there.
(27:48):
She was really quite good.
So I had to be gone about 20minutes to go get her from the
train and bring her back.
So Corinne was there.
I said, I'm gonna be gone.
Waved at her.
She waved back.
She was on the phone at thetime.
(28:11):
Went, my other daughter wasready, picked her up, came home.
She ran ahead of me into thehouse.
As I'm coming in the front door,I hear Maureen hung herself.
She had taken a dog leash.
(28:35):
Onto a second story banister,attached it, and thrown herself
off.
She was hanging outside thekitchen window.
SPEAKER_01 (28:46):
I'm so sorry.
SPEAKER_02 (28:50):
My younger daughter.
One of life's a miracle.
She had been taking emergencytraining as a Boy Scout thing.
And so she had been out there onemergencies.
She immediately went to 911 andcalled.
(29:10):
And then we worked as a team.
She went up above to cut theleash.
And I went down below to catch.
Meanwhile, I'm outside yellingfor neighbors, yelling for
anybody to help.
As I'm catching it.
(29:32):
Emergency got there shortlyafterwards.
She was unconscious but alive.
So they they took her to thehospital.
A friend happened to be drivingpast, saw the fire engines in
(29:53):
the ambulance and stopped.
drove me to the hospital.
Another friend came as well.
And so I had the two friends atthe hospital along with my
(30:14):
younger daughter.
Her father was away that day onbusiness.
He was hours away so I calledand just said explain what
happened.
We're at the hospital.
His only words were I didn'tthink she'd do that.
(30:35):
I thought she was too selfish.
SPEAKER_00 (30:40):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
She lived in a coma for three more days.
As a family we needed to decideand do not resuscitate.
And it was two for, two againstthe doctor advised that we just
not did that at the time.
(31:04):
Then on the third day she alsogot pneumonia come on in the
hospitals by this time some ofmy family I'm the oldest of six
some of my family had flown inand we were all standing in
Corine's room.
(31:24):
We were visiting rememberinggood things about her and some
people were just about to leavewhen we looked over and I
realized she'd passed one of thebravest things you'll do is
(31:51):
remember people as they wouldlike to be remembered in happy
times.
SPEAKER_01 (31:57):
And I think Carol you you are a testament to
something people can some peoplewill only just guess at and it
shows courage strengthresilience but more importantly
(32:18):
it shows the love of the motherand it shows that no matter what
goes on in the world you willalways love your child and that
memory needs to be held in gracebecause what you have is grace
(32:42):
in memories I want to honor youhonour your courage even just
sit here today before me astranger and share that story
because it means so much to meyou doing that in your own
(33:06):
healing not just for yourselfbut for many other people I
can't ever speak into thatanything to do with our deal and
the journey I don't have anexperience of that but I have an
experience of people like you intheir freedom crisis.
(33:30):
And not for what people maythink before we close out part
one is there any message you'dlike to share with the audience
of hope inspiration or warningwhatever you feel is necessary.
SPEAKER_02 (33:50):
I guess that you can get through tough times I
learned the value of friendship.
I never understood before whypeople bring food over when
there's a death until thenbecause I realized that we just
forgot to eat we wouldn't haveeaten had people not brought
(34:13):
food over and come to to comfortto be just to be there.
It didn't take a lot of therewere no words that could make a
difference.
No but just being there.
SPEAKER_01 (34:31):
Carol thank you for your love your time your trust
yeah this is why I love theseinterviews I know they're
challenging at times but youoffer so much knowledge and
inspiration for people and alsohope you are what's possible.
(34:56):
So for those people listeningnow and if you're going through
an ordeal ask for help reach outif you need for advice from
someone who's been there reallybeen there Carol the contact
details are below.
(35:17):
I'm sure she'd be willing tohave a conversation to stop this
happening to somebody else she'swhy this platform exists the
exact reason and people like youmake it possible so thank you
for listening please do someonea favor share the message change
(35:45):
your life and I'll see you onpart two remember this you're
the miracle thanks for listeningnot to me that's a car see you
all soon
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another
episode of Rise and EpicPodcast.
I am so privileged to introducemy next guest.
She has come through trial'stribulation into peace and
liberation.
My name is Carol Hodges.
Carol, please say hello, helppeople put you on Carol Hodges.
SPEAKER_02 (00:31):
And I found this light down there because I have
lights with all that experience.
We've allowed this lightbackwards and give it to the
thought.
And what do I have?
(00:53):
Either you may begin to wonder,who am I now?
As you're facing the last halfof life, and retirement's coming
up, you're getting older, or youhave the opportunity to see to
look back at your life, connectthe dots in a way where you can
(01:15):
say, I get it.
This is why I'm here.
This is what I came to do.
Because each of us are livingour own lives.
We're all the only personlooking through your eyes is
you.
That's it.
No one else can actually liveyour life.
(01:38):
But I am here because I realizethat the more we share, the more
that we begin to understand thatwe're we're not alone.
I don't think there's a personon this planet who reaches
midlife and hasn't hadchallenges.
And some more extreme thanothers.
(01:59):
But yours are your own and thereto learn from.
So that's why I have beenwilling to share things that
have gone on in my life becausethey finally make some sense to
me.
Things they may have hidden fora long time.
There was a purpose.
I now I get it.
SPEAKER_01 (02:21):
I love that.
And it's that eureka momentwe'll get into a bit later.
I want to give the audience andthat person listening now a bit
of context to what some onlyguess at, and that's some
adversity.
Can we go back in time a fewyears?
A moment, if you will.
(02:42):
And can you share a bit abouthow this was all for this
movement of yours was formed?
Because there's always a what Ifound with these interviews and
these conversations, there'salways a spark.
And that spark comes often notin a good place, it comes from a
very challenging place in ourlives.
(03:04):
But the result of it can createmiracles.
Do you believe you could shareabout that challenging
environment that you experiencedas much as you wish, and as much
as you want to share?
SPEAKER_02 (03:18):
Yes, and I'd like to start by saying I started out
with good things in mind.
Okay, college graduate andlooking for all the best in
life.
And got married, had three kids.
And I remember when I was in myearly 40s, and I was in musical
(03:44):
theater, I was dancing, I hadthings going on.
I was part of my parish.
And I remember that we had acouple's event where we came in
and shared what was going on inour lives.
It stuck with me that there wasone man who looked at me and
said, You will always just havevelvet bumps.
(04:07):
And then life hit, and they werenot velvets.
I was in business with myhusband at the time.
And part of what began happeningis I was taking care of the
finances, the details, and thebusiness, and I began to realize
(04:30):
it's some something seemed off.
He would tell me that certainthings had happened, we had
certain agreements, and Ithought that's not what I
remember.
And I began to question myself.
(05:12):
When I have something to talk tomy husband about, we had an
agreement that we would talkabout business at the office.
And in general, that's a greatthing.
Makes sense.
Except then the days that Ineeded to talk to him, he
started not showing up until 245 when I had to leave.
(05:34):
And I had that commitment, mykids are waiting, I would leave.
This went on for quite a while.
And I'm gonna jump all over alittle place.
So many things were happening atonce, but I began to realize we
were having difficulties, and Ibegan to realize that we needed
(05:57):
to talk to a therapist.
And then one day I discoveredsomething that really upset me.
And I found that my husbandpulled out some documents.
He said, Here's the agreementwith the date on it that I've
been telling you about.
(06:17):
Because I kept questioning.
I looked at it and I knewimmediately something was wrong.
Because for a period of time, wehad a certain, we had someone
hired and we had a special wordprocessor.
So someone else had to type itin and it came out and it only
(06:38):
had certain print.
And that word processor is whatevery document came out for
those several years.
They were all on that wordprocessor.
There was not another agreementthat could have come out.
And what he had handed me cameout, and it had been done on a
computer.
It was a different print.
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
Yep, understandably.
SPEAKER_02 (07:11):
And when presenting that, my husband blew up, ran
out of there.
And the therapist looked at meand understood what had been
going on.
I did not understand the meaningof the word gaslighting until
then, because when someone doesthat, happens is you're
(07:34):
questioning yourself.
I'm hearing this, I trust thisperson.
What the heck is going on?
I must be losing my mind.
The therapist presented me witha book called People of the Lie.
It is a very powerful bookbecause I began, then I could
(07:56):
understand him.
People of the lie is about thosewho they say something that is
not factual because they saidit.
Because it came out of theirmouth, they understand it.
That is the truth.
So suddenly his truth and mytruth were two different things,
(08:21):
completely.
SPEAKER_01 (08:22):
What did that feel like in the moment?
Were you vindicated that youfeel relief, that it wasn't you
going completely crazy, or wasthere a all of this was really
just to say, am I losing mymind?
SPEAKER_02 (08:39):
And so I was beginning to not trust myself.
And that's why I was becomingabsolutely a whiz at
investigating and trying to findthe truth.
When I got that and I began tounderstand, I also understood
the danger of what it producesfor everybody else around them.
(09:06):
And so then I was still facedwith what to do, and that wasn't
the only problem I was facing.
Our oldest daughter was 25 yearsold.
And we had during the good timesbeen able to send her to NYU
(09:28):
across the country because I'min San Diego, was in Los Angeles
at the time.
So we were sending her to NYU,and she graduated from there,
Sumacum Laude.
Now she was also an extremelytalented dancer.
She danced before she left ourarea.
(09:52):
And then when she got to NewYork, she was an understudy with
the Merse Cunningham Company.
That is an internationalcompany, so she was really a
very talented dancer.
And after graduation, she wasbeginning to look for a job.
(10:16):
But all she really wanted to dowas dance.
One of the issues became thatwhat she loved to dance was a
more obscure modern dance.
It wasn't roquettes, it wasn'tstuff of things that were
available in New York City thatwere well-paying jobs.
It was a more obscure form ofexpressionistic dance.
(10:42):
And I just wanted to supporther, but more and more crazy
things began happening.
I had been back to visit her atone time, and she had a very
little studio apartment.
But just outside the apartment,she had this one little corner
(11:04):
of the kitchen and it was a bigwindow.
And outside that window was abeautiful tree.
And I thought, oh, this is good.
At least she's in New York City,but she can look out and see
nature.
One day she called me just tosay they were cutting down the
tree.
(11:24):
I don't know why, I don't knowhow.
(11:53):
One day she said, I cut my hair.
And I said, Oh, what does itlook like?
I bet it's cute.
She said, No, I shaved my head.
SPEAKER_00 (12:08):
Hello.
SPEAKER_02 (12:11):
This was in the 1990s, like 1995.
That was not in.
Perhaps some places you can dothat these days.
I was shocked for somebodylooking for a job unless you
have cancer.
(12:31):
No one shaved their head at thattime.
SPEAKER_01 (12:36):
These were early warning signs, were they?
SPEAKER_02 (12:40):
Yeah, absolutely early warning signs.
And then there was a period oftime she disappeared.
At one point she finally said, Iwant to come home.
(13:00):
And I thought, great, that thebest thing I can do is get her
home right now.
And yet she said, I can't do itmyself.
So I flew.
I hopped on a plane and flew onan overnight, got there in the
morning and went straight to herapartment.
(13:22):
I got up to her apartment and Ihad to bang on the door.
And she finally opened the doorand she was emaciated.
She was thin as a dancer, but Iwas looking at somebody who was
close to being a skeleton.
unknown (13:42):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:44):
And so I got boxes and began just packing up her
things, just putting everythingI could.
Thank heavens, it was a smallstudio, but I was still, I was
just packing everything intoboxes.
unknown (13:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:01):
And during that day, we went out for food and stopped
at the coffee shop.
And while waiting for the food,she kept looking at me, saying,
Everybody's staring at me.
(14:24):
And they weren't, but she startssaying, I have to get out of
here.
Everybody's staring at me.
So she picked up and took off.
I threw some money on the tablefor the food, grabbed what I
could, and went after her,racking her down to the street,
(14:44):
and finally catching her.
And you know, she she's cryingand sobbing and getting her back
to the her apartment.
I finished packing theapartment, and she laid on the
floor in a fetal position thewhole time.
SPEAKER_01 (15:05):
As a mother or as a human being, it's been
incredibly difficult to witnessand bear.
SPEAKER_02 (15:15):
It was one of those, all I could think of is how am I
going to do this?
How will I get her out of here?
And so the it was getting to bethe end of the day.
And we have things packed, and Iknow I've got to get her out of
there.
(15:36):
So I had a flight plan, and Ihad to talk to her next door
neighbor and said they can'tcome until next week to pick
this up.
Can you let them in?
And they were already, they'dsee my daughter crewing crying
and all.
So they were already aware ofsome of the issue.
So they said they would do that.
(15:59):
And I got her to come down witha lot of effort to come down to
get into the car to go to theairport.
And on the way to the airport,she starts smoking, and the cab
driver is saying, There's nosmoking in the car.
(16:20):
Just let her smoke.
Because I was just hanging on,hoping that she'd stay in the
car till I could get her to theairport.
SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (16:30):
So we got to the airport.
We had no luggage, everythingwas just packed.
It's all I could do just to gether on board.
And as we start coming up tocheck in, she sits down on the
floor and starts yelling, theplane is going to crash.
(16:55):
Okay.
This was a time of tightsecurity, and this was not going
to be easy to get her onto theplane.
I finally went up and said, Ineed help.
My daughter is not well.
I need help getting her on theplane.
SPEAKER_01 (17:10):
That took courage for you even to do that.
To ask for the support youneeded in that moment took
extreme courage.
SPEAKER_02 (17:21):
I couldn't think of anything else I could do.
It's like I can't do this bymyself.
I don't know how to get her on.
And they called some police,come, and they talked to her,
and she said, I don't want toleave.
And I said, Everything is packedup.
She doesn't have an apartmentanymore.
(17:42):
I need to get her home.
And so they talked to her andthey just said, You don't have
any place to go.
And they stayed there until Igot her on the plane.
And I felt blessed that once Igot her into the plane, she just
pulled a blanket over her headand didn't say anything the rest
(18:05):
of the flight.
I didn't know what was going tohappen.
So we got back to the WestCoast.
And before we got off the plane,I called her father and said, I
had one suitcase.
And I said, just come as closeas you can to the gate.
(18:29):
I just need to get her in thecar.
He said, How about luggage?
I said, don't worry about it.
That can just stay later.
It will be all I can do just toget her into the car.
So he did that.
We came up front, managed to gether in the car, and I said, have
it set up.
We went, Scott, we were inNorthern California, then we
(18:50):
went to Stanford.
They had a Stanford PsychiatricCenter.
We went straight there from theairport and had to wait for
quite a while.
We got there and she's verycalm.
And I thought, I was just on twored-eye flights, packed up my
(19:12):
daughter's place, tracked heraround, got her there.
I had not eaten, I had notcombed my hair.
And I began to realize ifanybody looked like a crazy
person, it was probably me.
I know this can happen.
(19:34):
They took my daughter in, talkedto her by herself, came out and
said, We think she's just havinga little bit of parental
disagreement.
We probably need some familycounseling.
(19:57):
I went ballistic and I said, I'msure at that point they really
thought I was the crazy onebecause I couldn't believe it.
That's what happened.
And we took her home.
She managed to stay there forabout three weeks.
(20:20):
A friend, all she had at thatpoint, because she didn't have
any money, but she still had aworking credit card.
And so she charged a ticket togo back to New York.
Even though all of her thingswere en route to our house.
She talked a friend into takingher to the airport.
(20:44):
And she flew back to New York,and we did not hear from her for
two months.
We did not know what hadhappened to her.
Now I can't even describe.
So I already had things going onwith my husband.
And now another layer.
(21:07):
And I couldn't even talk topeople about this.
It was like there was nobody whocould even understand because it
didn't make any sense to me.
None of it made any sense.
And she was gone a good threemonths.
(21:31):
I found out a little bit sincethen.
It was just about a year and ahalf ago.
Someone who I did not knowreached out to me and said, Are
you Corinne's mom?
And I said, Yeah.
And he said, I knew Kareem.
(21:54):
And it made me feel good becauseI found out he had offered her a
place to live.
And yet he'd come home fromwork, and he was just a friend
that she knew from high school.
He came home from work, and Iguess he had another roommate as
well who said she'd been in thebathroom crying all day long.
(22:17):
And then I guess she he wouldn'thave known that because she
became whether you call itnormal or stoic or whatever, but
she didn't cry around him.
So he wanted her to tell all thepieces that the story fit.
(22:38):
But after three months, one dayshe called and said, I want to
come home.
And we bought her a ticket.
And she came home.
SPEAKER_01 (22:50):
On her own accord.
SPEAKER_02 (22:52):
On her own accord.
SPEAKER_01 (22:53):
Wow, that was a leap forward.
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
A leap forward.
And so we just welcomed her andjust let her live at home.
She found a place to dancebecause dancing is her passion.
And at the time we had to sharea car.
(23:19):
So this was another strange timein life.
Because what was going on at thetime is every morning she would
say, Can I have the car?
Because she wanted to go intothe city and dance.
At that point, our business wasgoing so far south, and I had
(23:39):
resigned from the business, butI was taking temp jobs.
The reason I was taking tempjobs is we didn't have the
nothing was coming from thebusiness.
SPEAKER_00 (23:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:54):
And I needed the money for groceries.
I found temp jobs, and I wouldjust go into whatever office
would hire me and make somemoney, and so I could buy
groceries that week.
And meanwhile, Corrine hadfinally we found a psychologist,
(24:22):
and so he would see her, and wecould really, I think it was
every other week because we hadto pay.
I did not know of any way atthat point.
We didn't have insurance.
I didn't know any other way topay for this.
So I was squeezing out grocerymonies and a psychologist.
(24:46):
And he began to, he gave hersome drugs for this to get her
out of depression.
But and some days she would takeit and some days she would.
Each morning we'd wake up andyou'd say, Good morning.
Some days she would say, goodmorning back.
(25:09):
Some days she would slam thedoor in your face.
You would not know.
And then we go around the littlerace of who how to use the car.
And so often I would let her useit.
I said, But I need to get to myjob.
So if you can drop me off, thenyou need to drop me off and pick
(25:31):
me up, and then you can use thecar in between.
And whenever I said no, it wasjust how this is how we were
living for months.
But one of the other things withthe car that you would often say
is, if I can't use the car, I'llkill myself.
(25:52):
I knew she meant it.
And I had friends who weretrying to understand, but all
they friends would tell me,tough love.
I think this is this is furtherthan tough love.
I really did not know.
And I knew that she meant itwhen she said, if I can't have
it, I'll kill myself.
(26:16):
But as apparently, my husbanddidn't believe her.
He was in his own little world.
He didn't believe her.
SPEAKER_01 (26:26):
Where was your husband's support?
Sorry.
Where was your husband's supportat this time?
Where was your support system?
SPEAKER_02 (26:36):
The closest I had was friends.
SPEAKER_01 (26:40):
Was that enough?
SPEAKER_02 (26:42):
No, it wasn't.
Because none of this made sense.
As I say, friends couldn'tunderstand.
They said, just be strict withher.
It's like, oh, in what way?
This is beyond.
This is so far beyond.
SPEAKER_01 (26:59):
What happened during the and we fast forward now
going through this?
Your husband's checked outemotionally by the sounds of
things.
I'm not trying to put words inyour mouth at all.
SPEAKER_00 (27:09):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (27:10):
You have a daughter that is unstable and by the
sounds of things, from what I'mhearing, mentally ill at a very
internal level.
Yes.
What happens after how does allthis come to a head?
Because I can feel it coming toa head.
SPEAKER_02 (27:28):
Yeah.
It came to a head one daybecause my other two children, I
was doing my best for them.
They were suffering too.
Yeah.
So one day I went to pick up myyounger daughter, who was 16 at
the time, and I had to pick herup.
She would take a train up to thecity, and she was in a class for
actors up there.
(27:48):
She was really quite good.
So I had to be gone about 20minutes to go get her from the
train and bring her back.
So Corinne was there.
I said, I'm gonna be gone.
Waved at her.
She waved back.
She was on the phone at thetime.
(28:11):
Went, my other daughter wasready, picked her up, came home.
She ran ahead of me into thehouse.
As I'm coming in the front door,I hear Maureen hung herself.
She had taken a dog leash.
(28:35):
Onto a second story banister,attached it, and thrown herself
off.
She was hanging outside thekitchen window.
SPEAKER_01 (28:46):
I'm so sorry.
SPEAKER_02 (28:50):
My younger daughter.
One of life's a miracle.
She had been taking emergencytraining as a Boy Scout thing.
And so she had been out there onemergencies.
She immediately went to 911 andcalled.
(29:10):
And then we worked as a team.
She went up above to cut theleash.
And I went down below to catch.
Meanwhile, I'm outside yellingfor neighbors, yelling for
anybody to help.
As I'm catching it.
(29:32):
Emergency got there shortlyafterwards.
She was unconscious but alive.
So they they took her to thehospital.
A friend happened to be drivingpast, saw the fire engines in
(29:53):
the ambulance and stopped.
drove me to the hospital.
Another friend came as well.
And so I had the two friends atthe hospital along with my
(30:14):
younger daughter.
Her father was away that day onbusiness.
He was hours away so I calledand just said explain what
happened.
We're at the hospital.
His only words were I didn'tthink she'd do that.
(30:35):
I thought she was too selfish.
SPEAKER_00 (30:40):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
She lived in a coma for three more days.
As a family we needed to decideand do not resuscitate.
And it was two for, two againstthe doctor advised that we just
not did that at the time.
(31:04):
Then on the third day she alsogot pneumonia come on in the
hospitals by this time some ofmy family I'm the oldest of six
some of my family had flown inand we were all standing in
Corine's room.
(31:24):
We were visiting rememberinggood things about her and some
people were just about to leavewhen we looked over and I
realized she'd passed one of thebravest things you'll do is
(31:51):
remember people as they wouldlike to be remembered in happy
times.
SPEAKER_01 (31:57):
And I think Carol you you are a testament to
something people can some peoplewill only just guess at and it
shows courage strengthresilience but more importantly
(32:18):
it shows the love of the motherand it shows that no matter what
goes on in the world you willalways love your child and that
memory needs to be held in gracebecause what you have is grace
(32:42):
in memories I want to honor youhonour your courage even just
sit here today before me astranger and share that story
because it means so much to meyou doing that in your own
(33:06):
healing not just for yourselfbut for many other people I
can't ever speak into thatanything to do with our deal and
the journey I don't have anexperience of that but I have an
experience of people like you intheir freedom crisis.
(33:30):
And not for what people maythink before we close out part
one is there any message you'dlike to share with the audience
of hope inspiration or warningwhatever you feel is necessary.
SPEAKER_02 (33:50):
I guess that you can get through tough times I
learned the value of friendship.
I never understood before whypeople bring food over when
there's a death until thenbecause I realized that we just
forgot to eat we wouldn't haveeaten had people not brought
(34:13):
food over and come to to comfortto be just to be there.
It didn't take a lot of therewere no words that could make a
difference.
No but just being there.
SPEAKER_01 (34:31):
Carol thank you for your love your time your trust
yeah this is why I love theseinterviews I know they're
challenging at times but youoffer so much knowledge and
inspiration for people and alsohope you are what's possible.
(34:56):
So for those people listeningnow and if you're going through
an ordeal ask for help reach outif you need for advice from
someone who's been there reallybeen there Carol the contact
details are below.
(35:17):
I'm sure she'd be willing tohave a conversation to stop this
happening to somebody else she'swhy this platform exists the
exact reason and people like youmake it possible so thank you
for listening please do someonea favor share the message change
(35:45):
your life and I'll see you onpart two remember this you're
the miracle thanks for listeningnot to me that's a car see you
all soon
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