February 2, 2025 • 29 mins
In this transformative episode, we sit down with Len May, the visionary CEO of EndoDNA, to explore the groundbreaking intersection of genetics, stress management, and executive performance. High-stakes roles often lead to burnout, but Len reveals how understanding your genetic predispositions can be a compass for tailored lifestyle choices that empower resilience, balance, and leadership clarity.
Dive into how your DNA can guide optimal decisions on diet, supplements, and environmental factors to reduce stress reactivity and enhance mental and physical well-being. Drawing connections to Dr. John Sarno’s groundbreaking theories on stress-induced inflammation, we explore the mind-body connection and its surprising links to chronic issues like back pain. Len and our host share actionable strategies like mindfulness and exercise that empower high-performing leaders to overcome physical and emotional challenges.
The episode also takes a personal turn, illustrating how moments of burnout can serve as pivotal opportunities for growth and transformation. Through Len’s insights, discover how confronting fear and aligning with a greater purpose can lead to sustained flow, fulfillment, and legacy-driven leadership.
This is more than a podcast episode it’s your blueprint for leveraging science and self-awareness to become the leader you were destined to be. Tune in to revolutionize how you lead and live. Don’t forget to share this episode with others striving for high-impact leadership, and subscribe to keep growing with us!
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Friends, as we wrap up today’s powerful conversation, hear me loud and clear: I’m grateful for you. You’ve chosen greatness over settling, clarity over chaos, and brilliance over burnout. Remember Great CEOs deserve NO burnout.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode
of Rise from the Ashes.
Yes, it's season five and I'mso excited to hear and introduce
my next guest.
We've had him before, but I wasso thrilled to interview him.
He's a phenomenal inspiration.
His name is Len May and helives in California.
(00:22):
He is intelligent, sexy,charismatic and, without further
ado, len, please introduceyourself.
What do you do?
And we'll go drive straightinto this.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah, I appreciate it , brother.
I'll take the sexy I think it'sthe hair cut.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yeah, I can tell yeah .
Speaker 2 (00:40):
So what I do is?
I am the CEO and co-founder ofa company called EndoDNA and
what we do is genetic testinganalysis focusing on precision,
health and wellness.
And I'm a big believer thateverything starts with your
genetics, and the reason whygenetics are really important is
because it gives you yourlife's GPS.
(01:02):
It shows you where yourpersonal potholes are in your
own road, so you can actuallytake action and be more of a
control of your lifestyle tomitigate the expression that
you're genetically predisposedto.
People always talked about yourgenes.
It's in your genes.
Oh, it's in my genes.
That's not really true, becausea lot of your genes maybe 20 to
(01:24):
30% yeah, they're pretty muchlocked in their hair color, eye
color, skin color, et cetera,but most of the rest of our
genes we have the power to beable to control the expression.
So turn those things on and offbased on lifestyle choices, and
lifestyle choices can includefood that we intake, what
supplements we consume, our ownneurochemistry and our exposure
(01:49):
to things like heavy metals,pesticides, etc.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So if we know this about ourselves, we can take
better care of our own healthand wellness and really help
ourselves to mitigate theexpression of some of those
adverse events, of some of thoseadverse events, and this is why
I love what you do, and it's socomplex, or it can be so
complex, but actually it's sosimple and it boils down to
(02:13):
looking after yourself and notgoing into burnout, where a lot
of these transformations andelevations in lives actually
start.
In your opinion, len, why doyou think most CEOs, many CEOs,
get burnt out, and what does itdo to the leadership structures
in not just their business butin their personal lives?
(02:33):
Because there's.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
First of all, there's genetic predisposition.
Some people have predispositionto stress reactivity, some
people are predisposed todepressive states, etc.
And if you're ignoring thosethings that you may be
predisposed to, you'retriggering and then you're
actually trying to mask that.
So you're turning to substances, you're turning to other things
(02:58):
that may be detrimental to yourhealth and eventually you just
walk off the cliff and there'snothing you can do about that,
without knowing that.
The other thing is societalexpectations about work-life
balance.
If you're a high-level executiveor you're an entrepreneur,
(03:20):
there is no such thing aslife-work balance.
It is everything you do is thereand the people around you that
you choose, and I really believethat you choose the people
around you.
They're either in it with you orthey're creating friction in
your life, and that frictionactually turns all those things
(03:40):
on as well.
So, being able to becomfortable with the stress,
comfortable with the work,comfortable with putting in the
14 hours a day, maybe not havingthat interaction with the
family the way you're supposedto, based on societal pressures
this is the sort of seesawdichotomy that you're always
(04:02):
struggling with.
I want to provide, I want to dothis for a family, but really
my driver is I want to changethe world.
You have big aspirations, bigdreams and if you're an
executive in a company, there'sa tremendous amount of
responsibility for you andyou're also responsible for
running a business and there's alot of people that depend on
you that are not just yourfamily members, and I think that
(04:24):
type of pressure, if you don'tknow how to work within the
confines of what you'represented, that creates all
kinds of different challengesthat people burn out fairly
quickly with that.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
And that's a great analogy there.
This is coming from an expertin 20, 30 years in the field and
has been through pretty much alot of things and seen these
things within very highdeveloped people.
If you're just joining us nowand you're going, what the hell
is this all about?
This is all about burnout.
It's called Rice and MeashesBurnout to Brilliance.
(04:56):
And it's about your stories andit's about you, as guests and
as listeners, contributing toour future.
The movement in America andacross the world isn't caused by
one person.
It's caused and created bycollective people on the same
page.
Roast from the Ashes is aboutyou and your stories.
(05:20):
Len May is one such guest andhe's becoming more and more a
friend as the months go past aswe interact, because of his
contribution to humanity andwhat he does to help other
people.
Len, this question is aboutleadership and the emotional
impacts in decision making.
(05:42):
The burnout and the fatiguearound health not just mental
health, but physical health andbiogenetics causes us to
collapse and create devastationresults within our lives.
How do you see the factors ofslightly leading into burnout to
(06:03):
dramatic crashes within theindustry that you're
specifically in?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
I've gone through this myself and it all depends
where you physically hold yourstress and being self-aware of
what are the indications thatsomething is going to happen to
you are the indications thatsomething is going to happen to
you?
So for me personally, I had adifferent business than I do now
, maybe less passionate aboutthat at the time, still putting
(06:31):
in a tremendous amount of workand there was a lot of stress.
And I started feeling thatstress and I went down to pick
something out of the oven.
I bent down, I stood up and Ifelt there was an electric shock
going in my back, all the waydown my leg, and I was laid out.
I was in so much pain Icouldn't figure this out and I
(06:54):
was called a doctor.
They're like, oh, take somepain medicine.
And then they said all right,maybe we'll schedule for you for
an epidural, which we're goingto do an injection of my spine
and block the pain.
And I was in so much pain thatI was like I'll do anything.
And I was laying in bed and Iwas listening to Howard Stern at
(07:16):
that time this was many yearsago and there was a celebrity on
the show and he was talkingabout his back pain and Howard
said do you know, maybe it'sstress-induced?
And the guy said, no, I reallyhave a bulging disc in my back.
And the guy goes, yeah, butthat doesn't necessarily you
have that, that doesn'tnecessarily mean you have pain
(07:37):
associated with it.
Have you ever heard of Dr JohnSarno?
I was like, all right, let mewrite this name down.
So I got the book and it wasthe first book I think was
called Healing Back Pain, andthen the second book is
Mind-Body Connection or maybethe other way around.
Dr Sarno, who's deceased nowpassed away.
But one of the theories that hehad is that a lot of the pain
(08:00):
that we have, whether it's neckpain, whether it's migraines,
whether it's back pain, it isinduced by stress.
And for me I'm a science-yperson so I'm like, yeah, but
what do you mean?
How does that work?
When you have stress, you'resecreting cortisol.
That cortisol can stay long inyour bloodstream.
It can actually lower your pHlevel, make you more acidic.
(08:22):
Your own body has an overactiveimmune response to that which
we know is cytokine.
Basically, and depending onwhere you hold that stress,
that's where you can get someinflammation.
And when you have inflammation,you already have a bulging disc
.
The muscle gets inflamed andstarts pushing on the disc where
(08:42):
you have the nerve and that'swhere you experience pain.
So I started thinking about it.
It used to happen to me everyonce in a while I would go on
vacation or holiday and I wouldbe so stressed Even though I'm
supposed to have an enjoyabletime, I'd be so stressed to make
sure everything goes okay.
I had an ex-wife now, but shewanted everything perfect it was
(09:06):
supposed to be.
So I was putting so muchpressure on myself, even outside
of work, to make sure that wehave an excellent experience.
So I go, pick up the bag out ofthe car and I'm like, oh, my
back again.
And the first couple of daysI'm laid out.
So as I started realizing andstarted curing myself of that, I
started feeling the symptoms.
So, as you feel it, I'm notgetting enough sleep, I'm not
(09:29):
drinking enough water, I'm notsupplementing myself enough, and
there's a little twinge in myback.
I feel it and I feel coming on.
And now I have to disassociatemyself and take action.
And what action can I take?
One of those is mindfulness.
Let's me quiet my brain.
Let me find some quiet time tobe able to overcome all that
stress, exercise, yoga, thingsof that nature going on my hike,
(09:54):
going on my nature hike,supplementing myself, so being
able to understand thatsomething is coming so maybe I
can get ahead of it before itactually trips and expresses
itself.
So I really think thatunderstanding your own
physiology is really important,understanding your own genetic
predispositions, where we carrystress.
(10:15):
And the most important thing, isthe people around you.
And for me, I've always foundthat if you have really good
people around you that are thereto support you and vibrate at
your own frequency, it's a mucheasier path.
And when you have that frictionof people, either it's a spouse
(10:38):
, either it's your employees,either it's your partners,
anybody else that's misalignedwith you.
That creates the extra frictionand all that creates extra
stress, which we then because atthe end of the day, human
beings, we're creatures ofcomfort down and say you know
(11:05):
what?
I'm going to disassociatemyself from this, because that's
something that may be a sideeffect of that burnout.
Once you find passion inyourself and you find the people
around you that are alignedwith that vision and mission and
can help you push through that,you can rely on them.
You don't have to do everythingby yourself, which is another
thing that entrepreneurs andpeople who are highly successful
(11:26):
, they want to do it allthemselves.
When you have that team, it'ssort of that foxhole mentality,
right, you know that the personnext to you got your right side,
you got the left side and youdon't ever have to think about
it and it's very rare to find.
So all those factors togetherare, I think, where you may be
lacking, where it leads toburnout fairly quickly.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I love that analogy and just for the listeners now,
you mentioned stress a few timesin there.
Now you and I both know there'smany levels of stress and
symptoms of them For the personwho's going.
I'm simple-minded.
Just give me how it is.
What, in your one words, is thesymptoms?
Distress.
You deal with this a lot andyou deal with the emotional and
(12:14):
also the physical components andthe results of it.
What's the most common thingsyou get presented with from high
performers?
What are the symptoms?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
It's usually either pain or headaches or poor sleep
quality.
So those are the things, andeach one of them is represented.
You can see some of thesegenetic predispositions, so I'll
give you a couple of examples.
So there is a gene related tostress reactivity.
(12:44):
So what that means is it's howyou deal with a stressful
situation.
Some people may experience moreanxiety when stressed and if
you have this geneticpredisposition now, you may be
in a position where you aresecreting more neurochemicals
that actually activate differentthings in your body.
The second part of that is youmay be predisposed to PTSD, so
(13:08):
post-traumatic stress disorder.
So now, if you're experiencinganxiety, if you have the genetic
predisposition, it can actuallypull that memory from.
Oh shit, man, this happened tome last month and you're going
in this hamster wheel ofbalancing that thought back and
forth.
So now you're preoccupied withthat thought and that keeps
(13:30):
increasing.
That stress level keepsincreasing those internal
endogenous hormones andneurochemicals that are
associated with stress and whatthat is.
If we have a traumatic event inour life, usually our brain
stores that traumatic event inour subconscious.
Unless we have a neurologicalcondition Under great duress,
(13:51):
under great stress, it can bringthat memory up to the surface
and you're dealing withsomething to happen Like for me
I got hit by a car on my bicyclewhen I was nine years old.
If I have that slower rate offear extinction when I'm under
stress, now I'm dealing withsomething that happened to me
when I was nine years oldinstead of dealing with the
issue that's in hand now.
So generational trauma, traumathat you had, all these
(14:13):
different things they can leadto the expression of stress and
how it shows up in differentpeople in different ways.
Like I was mentioning, thereare some people my mom always
told me she goes every singledisease is associated with
stress.
So manage your stress always.
And I'm like, yeah, that makessense, but how?
(14:35):
What is the mechanism for that?
Because I need to figure thatout.
And the mechanism for that isthere is an actual physical
mechanism for that and there isalso, as you were mentioning,
bazzi, there's also that mentalaspect of it, but it's all
related to chemistry.
You can actually seeneurochemicals being expressed.
(14:58):
You can actually see your bodybeing out of homeostasis and
when you have that and which isa balance, when your body's out
of homeostasis and out ofbalance, then your own body is
trying to overcompensate forthat.
So if you're out of balance,your body is going to say I need
to add something here as aneurochemical, which then
(15:19):
seesaws you in this direction upand down.
So being out of balance is whereI think a lot of people are
expressing their stress, and ifthey have predispositions to
things like gut health issues,like IBD, it can actually
trigger that.
So some people will come backand say really bad gut health.
One is like, ah, the food thatI eat.
(15:39):
But is it all food that you eat?
Maybe some of this is moreinflammatory?
Have you looked at your gutmicrobiome?
No, maybe you should startlooking at that.
But the more you know aboutyourself, the better you can
help with mitigating theexpression of some of these
things that you may bepredisposed to.
But stress can show up in somany different ways and there's
(16:01):
a pattern to stress and ifyou're being unaware of that
pattern, then you're repeatingthat over and over.
So being able to understandyour own body chemistry, your
own biomarkers, monitoringthings, sleep, is a big one too.
I was talking about stressreactivity.
Think about it this way If youare prone to stress reactivity
(16:23):
during the day and you also havea predisposition of bruxism
which is grinding your teeth.
If you're grinding your teeth,you're not getting the really
good restful sleep, the delta,the theta, quality sleep.
But you may be sleeping foreight hours a night and you're
telling your doctor or yourspouse no, I sleep great, I
sleep eight hours a night.
How do you know the quality ofsleep is good?
(16:48):
Some people sleep five hours anight and they're getting really
good REM sleeping.
Three hours of that is goodrestful, reset sleep.
If you're not getting that goodquality sleep, then during the
day you may be agitated, whichtriggers a stress reactivity.
You're still not getting enoughsleep because you're stressing,
you're grinding your teeth andyou're clenching and you're on
this hamster wheel.
So you're never recovering fromthat and it builds up over time
(17:09):
and then you can have thatcrash.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I think that's a great analogy and thank you for
that going into depth with it,it is a very good way to
describe it and also thesymptoms and also the effects of
it.
So if you're just tuning in nowand you're wondering what the
hell this is all about, first ofall, welcome.
And I've got a question for youAre you really ready to stop
(17:33):
surviving and actually startthriving in life?
If you are and you want thatleverage in your own life,
please subscribe to the podcast.
I'm not trying to sell youanything, just subscribe to the
podcast, because the guests andthe content in here is
life-changing and they're fromreal world experiences, from
real people who are the leadingthought leaders in their
(17:56):
industry, not just experts,because everybody in the world
is a fucking expert.
These people are thoughtleaders who are pioneering the
way for our next generation.
Len May is just one of them.
Len, I want to thank you againfor being here.
Firstly and this question isabout reframing what has
(18:17):
happened to us the burnout.
Many people think burnout is aas a failure, but actually it
can drive so much more than thatbehind the scenes.
It may not look like at first.
How would you advise or how didyou create uh reconnect with
your purpose after your episodeof burnout?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
yeah, yeah, and that's a great way to put it,
because burnout may be caused,or I'll talk about myself with a
misalignment of purpose.
So at one point in my life Ithought that I want to do real
estate.
So I was a commercial realestate broker.
(18:59):
And why?
Because I thought that first Ican generate a lot of revenue
from that for myself, for myfamily, I can create
generational wealth for that.
But the one thing that wasmissing is I lied to myself.
I was telling myself how much Iloved real estate.
(19:21):
It was so fun for me to do.
Well, if I look back and Ireanalyze myself, I loved the
transaction.
It was like that shot of heroinor whatever you take, because
you get it and then it's doneand you're like, holy shit, I'm
still in the same place that Iwas at.
(19:42):
I thought this transaction isgoing to make me happy, I'm
making all this money.
But it went away.
And then, once again, you startagain on this journey.
The next one, because as ahunter, you're eating what you
kill, you're a commission-onlysalesperson, you have a family
to rely on, you have all thispressure, but you're doing well,
(20:03):
you're making that connectionto what you think your purpose
is.
But the one thing that I wasmissing in this purpose is what
am I doing to contribute, notjust to myself, to other people?
And when I started thinkingabout that, I'm just making
wealthy people more wealthybecause I'm a commercial real
estate broker?
Yes, am I helping people?
(20:24):
Sure, I'm helping them findproperties.
I'm helping them maybe do their1031 tax deferred exchange,
advise them how to save money.
But what am I doing for thegreater good?
What am I doing outside ofmyself?
And I think that was thebiggest aha moment I got when my
burnout happened.
It was a perfect storm becausewe had the crash in 2008.
(20:50):
So now my clients I can't getthem financing.
The second thing is I thought,outside of that, I'm going to go
to the banks, I'm going to talkto the banks and sell
non-performing notes, which Idid as well.
So I was trying to figure out away to still continue to help
my clients.
But these were all signs for me.
(21:13):
This was all a thing that am Idoing something for a greater
purpose?
That's outside of myself.
And when all these thingshappened, I wasn't aware, I
wasn't self-aware enough to saythese are signs and maybe I
should think about what is thatgreater purpose outside of
myself and at that time whereall this thing went down, that I
(21:38):
started going through a divorce, all these at the same exact
time.
And I believe the universe istelling me this.
It's wake up, smack you aroundand say you're in a shitty place
, not because of anybody else,but because of yourself.
And maybe this is where youneed to reconsider what really
(22:00):
you want to contribute to theworld.
And if you come with thatcontribution, you're already
passionate.
It's not about finding yourpassion.
It's about finding the passionwithin yourself to be able to
say I'm going to connect to apurpose and then go out and do
something about that.
And at that point you're notpushing.
And this is where I thought wasreally important.
You're pushing real estatetransactions, you're pushing and
(22:22):
you can still be successfulpushing, but it's much easier
when you're being pulled bysomething and when I found that,
okay, I can actually reallyhelp people.
Yes, it's going to be difficultbecause I'm going after big
pharma and doctors.
Yes, I want to change thelandscape, but because I'm being
(22:43):
pulled by the purpose, and thenthat purpose that I'm being
pulled with is reinforced byfeedback, and what I mean by
that is when I'm meeting aperson that says, hey, I wasn't
able to walk until we did a DNAtest and we got a protocol.
And now, look at me.
I'm meeting a person that says,hey, I wasn't able to walk
until we did a DNA test and wegot a protocol.
And now, look at me, I'mcleaning the kitchen.
When you're getting thepersonal stories, it's Tony
(23:04):
Robbins saying one of the thingsI do when I help people is it's
selfish in a way, because I getso much more back which
motivates me to do more, whichmotivates me, which gives me the
feedback, that cycle of beingpulled and getting the feedback.
It fills my cup and allows meto maintain that passion.
(23:25):
It's still hard.
It's still that work-lifebalance, all that is still
happening, but because you'redriven by something greater than
yourself.
That's what I think is thedifference between where it was
and where it is today.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
And that's a great analogy.
I think that they're learning.
It's a state of I woulddescribe like flow.
So it's a perpetual state ofreceiving, giving, receiving,
giving.
But it's an equal exchange andwhen you come to that state of
awareness, it doesn't become ajob, it doesn't become work, it
just becomes a lifestyle wherethat flow is always there and
(24:03):
you're always filling up yourown cup with your good deeds,
with inspiring others, butequally, you're giving that
exchange and that's a beautifulanalogy of that.
Before we close down for partone, I'm going to ask the
audience to write something downfor me, not for me, but for
yourselves what's the one thingyou've been avoiding?
(24:24):
What's the one thing you'vebeen avoiding because you feel
too burnt out to do things?
What do you have to face andwhat would you finally feel when
you faced it?
Because that, my friends, isfreedom.
So my parting words for thispart of this show is face your
(24:47):
fears and find your freedom.
We're back very shortly withpart two for myself and Len.
I'll see you very soon.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode
of Rise from the Ashes.
Yes, it's season five and I'mso excited to hear and introduce
my next guest.
We've had him before, but I wasso thrilled to interview him.
He's a phenomenal inspiration.
His name is Len May and helives in California.
(00:22):
He is intelligent, sexy,charismatic and, without further
ado, len, please introduceyourself.
What do you do?
And we'll go drive straightinto this.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah, I appreciate it , brother.
I'll take the sexy I think it'sthe hair cut.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yeah, I can tell yeah .
Speaker 2 (00:40):
So what I do is?
I am the CEO and co-founder ofa company called EndoDNA and
what we do is genetic testinganalysis focusing on precision,
health and wellness.
And I'm a big believer thateverything starts with your
genetics, and the reason whygenetics are really important is
because it gives you yourlife's GPS.
(01:02):
It shows you where yourpersonal potholes are in your
own road, so you can actuallytake action and be more of a
control of your lifestyle tomitigate the expression that
you're genetically predisposedto.
People always talked about yourgenes.
It's in your genes.
Oh, it's in my genes.
That's not really true, becausea lot of your genes maybe 20 to
(01:24):
30% yeah, they're pretty muchlocked in their hair color, eye
color, skin color, et cetera,but most of the rest of our
genes we have the power to beable to control the expression.
So turn those things on and offbased on lifestyle choices, and
lifestyle choices can includefood that we intake, what
supplements we consume, our ownneurochemistry and our exposure
(01:49):
to things like heavy metals,pesticides, etc.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So if we know this about ourselves, we can take
better care of our own healthand wellness and really help
ourselves to mitigate theexpression of some of those
adverse events, of some of thoseadverse events, and this is why
I love what you do, and it's socomplex, or it can be so
complex, but actually it's sosimple and it boils down to
(02:13):
looking after yourself and notgoing into burnout, where a lot
of these transformations andelevations in lives actually
start.
In your opinion, len, why doyou think most CEOs, many CEOs,
get burnt out, and what does itdo to the leadership structures
in not just their business butin their personal lives?
(02:33):
Because there's.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
First of all, there's genetic predisposition.
Some people have predispositionto stress reactivity, some
people are predisposed todepressive states, etc.
And if you're ignoring thosethings that you may be
predisposed to, you'retriggering and then you're
actually trying to mask that.
So you're turning to substances, you're turning to other things
(02:58):
that may be detrimental to yourhealth and eventually you just
walk off the cliff and there'snothing you can do about that,
without knowing that.
The other thing is societalexpectations about work-life
balance.
If you're a high-level executiveor you're an entrepreneur,
(03:20):
there is no such thing aslife-work balance.
It is everything you do is thereand the people around you that
you choose, and I really believethat you choose the people
around you.
They're either in it with you orthey're creating friction in
your life, and that frictionactually turns all those things
(03:40):
on as well.
So, being able to becomfortable with the stress,
comfortable with the work,comfortable with putting in the
14 hours a day, maybe not havingthat interaction with the
family the way you're supposedto, based on societal pressures
this is the sort of seesawdichotomy that you're always
(04:02):
struggling with.
I want to provide, I want to dothis for a family, but really
my driver is I want to changethe world.
You have big aspirations, bigdreams and if you're an
executive in a company, there'sa tremendous amount of
responsibility for you andyou're also responsible for
running a business and there's alot of people that depend on
you that are not just yourfamily members, and I think that
(04:24):
type of pressure, if you don'tknow how to work within the
confines of what you'represented, that creates all
kinds of different challengesthat people burn out fairly
quickly with that.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
And that's a great analogy there.
This is coming from an expertin 20, 30 years in the field and
has been through pretty much alot of things and seen these
things within very highdeveloped people.
If you're just joining us nowand you're going, what the hell
is this all about?
This is all about burnout.
It's called Rice and MeashesBurnout to Brilliance.
(04:56):
And it's about your stories andit's about you, as guests and
as listeners, contributing toour future.
The movement in America andacross the world isn't caused by
one person.
It's caused and created bycollective people on the same
page.
Roast from the Ashes is aboutyou and your stories.
(05:20):
Len May is one such guest andhe's becoming more and more a
friend as the months go past aswe interact, because of his
contribution to humanity andwhat he does to help other
people.
Len, this question is aboutleadership and the emotional
impacts in decision making.
(05:42):
The burnout and the fatiguearound health not just mental
health, but physical health andbiogenetics causes us to
collapse and create devastationresults within our lives.
How do you see the factors ofslightly leading into burnout to
(06:03):
dramatic crashes within theindustry that you're
specifically in?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
I've gone through this myself and it all depends
where you physically hold yourstress and being self-aware of
what are the indications thatsomething is going to happen to
you are the indications thatsomething is going to happen to
you?
So for me personally, I had adifferent business than I do now
, maybe less passionate aboutthat at the time, still putting
(06:31):
in a tremendous amount of workand there was a lot of stress.
And I started feeling thatstress and I went down to pick
something out of the oven.
I bent down, I stood up and Ifelt there was an electric shock
going in my back, all the waydown my leg, and I was laid out.
I was in so much pain Icouldn't figure this out and I
(06:54):
was called a doctor.
They're like, oh, take somepain medicine.
And then they said all right,maybe we'll schedule for you for
an epidural, which we're goingto do an injection of my spine
and block the pain.
And I was in so much pain thatI was like I'll do anything.
And I was laying in bed and Iwas listening to Howard Stern at
(07:16):
that time this was many yearsago and there was a celebrity on
the show and he was talkingabout his back pain and Howard
said do you know, maybe it'sstress-induced?
And the guy said, no, I reallyhave a bulging disc in my back.
And the guy goes, yeah, butthat doesn't necessarily you
have that, that doesn'tnecessarily mean you have pain
(07:37):
associated with it.
Have you ever heard of Dr JohnSarno?
I was like, all right, let mewrite this name down.
So I got the book and it wasthe first book I think was
called Healing Back Pain, andthen the second book is
Mind-Body Connection or maybethe other way around.
Dr Sarno, who's deceased nowpassed away.
But one of the theories that hehad is that a lot of the pain
(08:00):
that we have, whether it's neckpain, whether it's migraines,
whether it's back pain, it isinduced by stress.
And for me I'm a science-yperson so I'm like, yeah, but
what do you mean?
How does that work?
When you have stress, you'resecreting cortisol.
That cortisol can stay long inyour bloodstream.
It can actually lower your pHlevel, make you more acidic.
(08:22):
Your own body has an overactiveimmune response to that which
we know is cytokine.
Basically, and depending onwhere you hold that stress,
that's where you can get someinflammation.
And when you have inflammation,you already have a bulging disc
.
The muscle gets inflamed andstarts pushing on the disc where
(08:42):
you have the nerve and that'swhere you experience pain.
So I started thinking about it.
It used to happen to me everyonce in a while I would go on
vacation or holiday and I wouldbe so stressed Even though I'm
supposed to have an enjoyabletime, I'd be so stressed to make
sure everything goes okay.
I had an ex-wife now, but shewanted everything perfect it was
(09:06):
supposed to be.
So I was putting so muchpressure on myself, even outside
of work, to make sure that wehave an excellent experience.
So I go, pick up the bag out ofthe car and I'm like, oh, my
back again.
And the first couple of daysI'm laid out.
So as I started realizing andstarted curing myself of that, I
started feeling the symptoms.
So, as you feel it, I'm notgetting enough sleep, I'm not
(09:29):
drinking enough water, I'm notsupplementing myself enough, and
there's a little twinge in myback.
I feel it and I feel coming on.
And now I have to disassociatemyself and take action.
And what action can I take?
One of those is mindfulness.
Let's me quiet my brain.
Let me find some quiet time tobe able to overcome all that
stress, exercise, yoga, thingsof that nature going on my hike,
(09:54):
going on my nature hike,supplementing myself, so being
able to understand thatsomething is coming so maybe I
can get ahead of it before itactually trips and expresses
itself.
So I really think thatunderstanding your own
physiology is really important,understanding your own genetic
predispositions, where we carrystress.
(10:15):
And the most important thing, isthe people around you.
And for me, I've always foundthat if you have really good
people around you that are thereto support you and vibrate at
your own frequency, it's a mucheasier path.
And when you have that frictionof people, either it's a spouse
(10:38):
, either it's your employees,either it's your partners,
anybody else that's misalignedwith you.
That creates the extra frictionand all that creates extra
stress, which we then because atthe end of the day, human
beings, we're creatures ofcomfort down and say you know
(11:05):
what?
I'm going to disassociatemyself from this, because that's
something that may be a sideeffect of that burnout.
Once you find passion inyourself and you find the people
around you that are alignedwith that vision and mission and
can help you push through that,you can rely on them.
You don't have to do everythingby yourself, which is another
thing that entrepreneurs andpeople who are highly successful
(11:26):
, they want to do it allthemselves.
When you have that team, it'ssort of that foxhole mentality,
right, you know that the personnext to you got your right side,
you got the left side and youdon't ever have to think about
it and it's very rare to find.
So all those factors togetherare, I think, where you may be
lacking, where it leads toburnout fairly quickly.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I love that analogy and just for the listeners now,
you mentioned stress a few timesin there.
Now you and I both know there'smany levels of stress and
symptoms of them For the personwho's going.
I'm simple-minded.
Just give me how it is.
What, in your one words, is thesymptoms?
Distress.
You deal with this a lot andyou deal with the emotional and
(12:14):
also the physical components andthe results of it.
What's the most common thingsyou get presented with from high
performers?
What are the symptoms?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
It's usually either pain or headaches or poor sleep
quality.
So those are the things, andeach one of them is represented.
You can see some of thesegenetic predispositions, so I'll
give you a couple of examples.
So there is a gene related tostress reactivity.
(12:44):
So what that means is it's howyou deal with a stressful
situation.
Some people may experience moreanxiety when stressed and if
you have this geneticpredisposition now, you may be
in a position where you aresecreting more neurochemicals
that actually activate differentthings in your body.
The second part of that is youmay be predisposed to PTSD, so
(13:08):
post-traumatic stress disorder.
So now, if you're experiencinganxiety, if you have the genetic
predisposition, it can actuallypull that memory from.
Oh shit, man, this happened tome last month and you're going
in this hamster wheel ofbalancing that thought back and
forth.
So now you're preoccupied withthat thought and that keeps
(13:30):
increasing.
That stress level keepsincreasing those internal
endogenous hormones andneurochemicals that are
associated with stress and whatthat is.
If we have a traumatic event inour life, usually our brain
stores that traumatic event inour subconscious.
Unless we have a neurologicalcondition Under great duress,
(13:51):
under great stress, it can bringthat memory up to the surface
and you're dealing withsomething to happen Like for me
I got hit by a car on my bicyclewhen I was nine years old.
If I have that slower rate offear extinction when I'm under
stress, now I'm dealing withsomething that happened to me
when I was nine years oldinstead of dealing with the
issue that's in hand now.
So generational trauma, traumathat you had, all these
(14:13):
different things they can leadto the expression of stress and
how it shows up in differentpeople in different ways.
Like I was mentioning, thereare some people my mom always
told me she goes every singledisease is associated with
stress.
So manage your stress always.
And I'm like, yeah, that makessense, but how?
(14:35):
What is the mechanism for that?
Because I need to figure thatout.
And the mechanism for that isthere is an actual physical
mechanism for that and there isalso, as you were mentioning,
bazzi, there's also that mentalaspect of it, but it's all
related to chemistry.
You can actually seeneurochemicals being expressed.
(14:58):
You can actually see your bodybeing out of homeostasis and
when you have that and which isa balance, when your body's out
of homeostasis and out ofbalance, then your own body is
trying to overcompensate forthat.
So if you're out of balance,your body is going to say I need
to add something here as aneurochemical, which then
(15:19):
seesaws you in this direction upand down.
So being out of balance is whereI think a lot of people are
expressing their stress, and ifthey have predispositions to
things like gut health issues,like IBD, it can actually
trigger that.
So some people will come backand say really bad gut health.
One is like, ah, the food thatI eat.
(15:39):
But is it all food that you eat?
Maybe some of this is moreinflammatory?
Have you looked at your gutmicrobiome?
No, maybe you should startlooking at that.
But the more you know aboutyourself, the better you can
help with mitigating theexpression of some of these
things that you may bepredisposed to.
But stress can show up in somany different ways and there's
(16:01):
a pattern to stress and ifyou're being unaware of that
pattern, then you're repeatingthat over and over.
So being able to understandyour own body chemistry, your
own biomarkers, monitoringthings, sleep, is a big one too.
I was talking about stressreactivity.
Think about it this way If youare prone to stress reactivity
(16:23):
during the day and you also havea predisposition of bruxism
which is grinding your teeth.
If you're grinding your teeth,you're not getting the really
good restful sleep, the delta,the theta, quality sleep.
But you may be sleeping foreight hours a night and you're
telling your doctor or yourspouse no, I sleep great, I
sleep eight hours a night.
How do you know the quality ofsleep is good?
(16:48):
Some people sleep five hours anight and they're getting really
good REM sleeping.
Three hours of that is goodrestful, reset sleep.
If you're not getting that goodquality sleep, then during the
day you may be agitated, whichtriggers a stress reactivity.
You're still not getting enoughsleep because you're stressing,
you're grinding your teeth andyou're clenching and you're on
this hamster wheel.
So you're never recovering fromthat and it builds up over time
(17:09):
and then you can have thatcrash.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I think that's a great analogy and thank you for
that going into depth with it,it is a very good way to
describe it and also thesymptoms and also the effects of
it.
So if you're just tuning in nowand you're wondering what the
hell this is all about, first ofall, welcome.
And I've got a question for youAre you really ready to stop
(17:33):
surviving and actually startthriving in life?
If you are and you want thatleverage in your own life,
please subscribe to the podcast.
I'm not trying to sell youanything, just subscribe to the
podcast, because the guests andthe content in here is
life-changing and they're fromreal world experiences, from
real people who are the leadingthought leaders in their
(17:56):
industry, not just experts,because everybody in the world
is a fucking expert.
These people are thoughtleaders who are pioneering the
way for our next generation.
Len May is just one of them.
Len, I want to thank you againfor being here.
Firstly and this question isabout reframing what has
(18:17):
happened to us the burnout.
Many people think burnout is aas a failure, but actually it
can drive so much more than thatbehind the scenes.
It may not look like at first.
How would you advise or how didyou create uh reconnect with
your purpose after your episodeof burnout?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
yeah, yeah, and that's a great way to put it,
because burnout may be caused,or I'll talk about myself with a
misalignment of purpose.
So at one point in my life Ithought that I want to do real
estate.
So I was a commercial realestate broker.
(18:59):
And why?
Because I thought that first Ican generate a lot of revenue
from that for myself, for myfamily, I can create
generational wealth for that.
But the one thing that wasmissing is I lied to myself.
I was telling myself how much Iloved real estate.
(19:21):
It was so fun for me to do.
Well, if I look back and Ireanalyze myself, I loved the
transaction.
It was like that shot of heroinor whatever you take, because
you get it and then it's doneand you're like, holy shit, I'm
still in the same place that Iwas at.
(19:42):
I thought this transaction isgoing to make me happy, I'm
making all this money.
But it went away.
And then, once again, you startagain on this journey.
The next one, because as ahunter, you're eating what you
kill, you're a commission-onlysalesperson, you have a family
to rely on, you have all thispressure, but you're doing well,
(20:03):
you're making that connectionto what you think your purpose
is.
But the one thing that I wasmissing in this purpose is what
am I doing to contribute, notjust to myself, to other people?
And when I started thinkingabout that, I'm just making
wealthy people more wealthybecause I'm a commercial real
estate broker?
Yes, am I helping people?
(20:24):
Sure, I'm helping them findproperties.
I'm helping them maybe do their1031 tax deferred exchange,
advise them how to save money.
But what am I doing for thegreater good?
What am I doing outside ofmyself?
And I think that was thebiggest aha moment I got when my
burnout happened.
It was a perfect storm becausewe had the crash in 2008.
(20:50):
So now my clients I can't getthem financing.
The second thing is I thought,outside of that, I'm going to go
to the banks, I'm going to talkto the banks and sell
non-performing notes, which Idid as well.
So I was trying to figure out away to still continue to help
my clients.
But these were all signs for me.
(21:13):
This was all a thing that am Idoing something for a greater
purpose?
That's outside of myself.
And when all these thingshappened, I wasn't aware, I
wasn't self-aware enough to saythese are signs and maybe I
should think about what is thatgreater purpose outside of
myself and at that time whereall this thing went down, that I
(21:38):
started going through a divorce, all these at the same exact
time.
And I believe the universe istelling me this.
It's wake up, smack you aroundand say you're in a shitty place
, not because of anybody else,but because of yourself.
And maybe this is where youneed to reconsider what really
(22:00):
you want to contribute to theworld.
And if you come with thatcontribution, you're already
passionate.
It's not about finding yourpassion.
It's about finding the passionwithin yourself to be able to
say I'm going to connect to apurpose and then go out and do
something about that.
And at that point you're notpushing.
And this is where I thought wasreally important.
You're pushing real estatetransactions, you're pushing and
(22:22):
you can still be successfulpushing, but it's much easier
when you're being pulled bysomething and when I found that,
okay, I can actually reallyhelp people.
Yes, it's going to be difficultbecause I'm going after big
pharma and doctors.
Yes, I want to change thelandscape, but because I'm being
(22:43):
pulled by the purpose, and thenthat purpose that I'm being
pulled with is reinforced byfeedback, and what I mean by
that is when I'm meeting aperson that says, hey, I wasn't
able to walk until we did a DNAtest and we got a protocol.
And now, look at me.
I'm meeting a person that says,hey, I wasn't able to walk
until we did a DNA test and wegot a protocol.
And now, look at me, I'mcleaning the kitchen.
When you're getting thepersonal stories, it's Tony
(23:04):
Robbins saying one of the thingsI do when I help people is it's
selfish in a way, because I getso much more back which
motivates me to do more, whichmotivates me, which gives me the
feedback, that cycle of beingpulled and getting the feedback.
It fills my cup and allows meto maintain that passion.
(23:25):
It's still hard.
It's still that work-lifebalance, all that is still
happening, but because you'redriven by something greater than
yourself.
That's what I think is thedifference between where it was
and where it is today.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
And that's a great analogy.
I think that they're learning.
It's a state of I woulddescribe like flow.
So it's a perpetual state ofreceiving, giving, receiving,
giving.
But it's an equal exchange andwhen you come to that state of
awareness, it doesn't become ajob, it doesn't become work, it
just becomes a lifestyle wherethat flow is always there and
(24:03):
you're always filling up yourown cup with your good deeds,
with inspiring others, butequally, you're giving that
exchange and that's a beautifulanalogy of that.
Before we close down for partone, I'm going to ask the
audience to write something downfor me, not for me, but for
yourselves what's the one thingyou've been avoiding?
(24:24):
What's the one thing you'vebeen avoiding because you feel
too burnt out to do things?
What do you have to face andwhat would you finally feel when
you faced it?
Because that, my friends, isfreedom.
So my parting words for thispart of this show is face your
(24:47):
fears and find your freedom.
We're back very shortly withpart two for myself and Len.
I'll see you very soon.
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