February 26, 2025 • 52 mins
Masculinity... it's a word that stirs up all sorts of reactions these days. But what does it really mean? And what happens when men embrace their strength, leadership, and responsibility in a way that lifts themselves and those around them? Enter Ryan Michler, founder of Order of Man, a movement dedicated to helping men step up, take ownership, and lead in their lives, families, and communities. In this conversation, Ryan shares his journey from financial advisor to global thought leader on masculinity, the pivotal moments that shaped him, and why he's all about frameworks, networks, and action. We get real about parenting, personal growth, the shifting landscape of men's roles, and the difference between masculinity and the ever-controversial "toxic masculinity.'' If you’re into straight-talking insights on leadership, resilience, and showing up as your best self... this one’s for you.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Goody team.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Welcome to another episode of Role with the Punches podcast.
I'm your host, Tif Cook, and today we are having
a chat to Ryan Mickler. He is the founder of
Order of Man and he's all about helping blokes step up,
take charge and lead with purpose. We're having a chat
about all of that, things like talking about masculinity, talking
(00:22):
about responsibility, what it actually means to be a man
in today's world, and everything from personal growth to fatherhood.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I love this chat. It's a ripper. I hope you
enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
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Speaker 1 (01:10):
Ryan Mickla, welcome to Roll with the Punches.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Thank you, glad to be here. I've been looking forward
to the conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
So fine.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
It's going to be a big one. It's going to
be a big one. First of all, how are you
and how's your twenty twenty five kicked off?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
So far?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
So far, so good. I can't believe we're already almost
a four month into it as of this recording. It's crazy.
We were talking about it before we hit record, how
fast everything goes. But it's been good. We've got some
big plans this year and doing some strategizing and growing
and building relationships with kids and everything else. So it's
been a good twenty twenty five so far.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Nice do you do? Do you do a start of
the year? What went well? How's it going to go?
Like New Year's resolution or a plan or a twelvemonth thing?
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Yeah, in a way, not a twelve month thing. I
plan in ninety day segments. So I've got my planner
that I use right here, and it's it's basically my
ninety day battle plan. So I have four plans per year.
So what I ended up doing is in December, I
start planning out what's going to happen in January, February,
March of twenty twenty five, and what I'm going to
(02:16):
do and how I'm going to make it work and
everything else, and then about two to three weeks prior
to the next quarter is when I do what you said,
that review of what worked, what didn't work, what do
I need to tweak, what do I need to keep
the same, all of those sorts of things.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
I don't think you know how much I love that.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
I just wrote that down with way too much enthusiasm
because I think this ninety kay breakdown is such a
mee thing, Like I think that I would love that
way more than I don't know what's this year going
to do, and it's a long time, it's a goal,
So that's I'm good with short term staff.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Well, I don't even know really what I'm going to
have for dinner tonight, let alone what's going to happen
by the end of the year. So if we start
planning and strategizing based on the next twelve months, there's
a lot of uncertainty to that. Yeah, you know, I
don't know about you know, politics were in your part
of the world, but in this part of the world,
politics and you know, global issues and conflict and the
(03:13):
economy just changes everything and we don't have any control
over that. So we have to roll with those punches
to use the title your podcast a little bit. But
I like ninety day Goals because it's long enough where
you can actually experience some results, but it's short enough
for me and my attention span that it keeps me interested.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, yeah, I love it. Your area of expertise in masculinity?
Has that been a I don't know how interesting has
that been lately? Is that the way that masculine? I
don't know if it's the same where you are, but here,
Over the last year or so, there's been a lot
(03:55):
more talk about masculinity, whether it's positive or negative. There's
so much more in and when that happens, it always
brings so many more people into the conversation from all
different standpoints. Has it been something that you need to
curate really carefully so that the people are getting the
correct message of what you're delivering.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I tend on to be careful. That that isn't probably
the word that I would use, just because careful means
that you could very easily get into manipulation or betraying
yourself when you start worrying so much about how other
people might perceive your messaging or what you have to say. Now,
I try to be smart and tactful about what I present, because,
(04:37):
as always, I think anybody who wants to achieve in
their life wants to put their best foot forward. But
I am really cautious in not filtering the things that
I want to say and the conversations I want to
have based on outside responses to them. And what I
found is that the people that want to have the
conversations that I want to have find us and end
(05:00):
up engaged in those conversations and other programs and things
like that we have and other people. In a lot
of ways, there's a lot of people that despise the
work I do, but that's not really my issue. I
feel pretty secure with what we're doing here. I will say, though,
So I started doing this. Let's see, well it's almost
ten years ago, so March will be ten, our ten
(05:21):
year anniversary. And when I started talking about it and
thank you, yeah, in twenty fifteen, I don't know that
there was a lot of dismissal and attack, at least,
you know, on our side of the globe towards masculinity
like you might see today. But I think we were
on the cusp of seeing a lot more of that
(05:43):
and that happened, and I was a voice, and other
people became voices, and it got pretty bad where there
was this outright dismissal and attack and almost hostility frankly
towards the concept of masculinity and manliness. But I think
you alluded to it minute ago. Over the past even
six months to a year, I would say, there's really
(06:05):
an insurgence of men knowing that they need to step
up as men, men having a desire to do that,
women honoring the fact that men are men and we're
not at odds with each other, that we compliment each
other very well, and we had to find ways to
work together. That seems to be a relatively new development
based on my experience over the past ten years.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I saw an interesting post on socials the other day,
and I can't remember who it was. It was a
huge account and it was a bloke that had a
gym and he had this like a montage of doing
crossfity workouts and kind of wrestling with a young kid,
and the heading on it said, if this is toxic masculinity,
(06:48):
and then it shows all this, you know, like pushing
sleds and doing battle ropes, and it's like we need
more of this, and I thought, oh, this will this
will be an interesting comment section, and just everybody jumping
in with their outrage, and it was just so interesting
because it was like, there's nothing toxic about that. That's
not toxic masculinity. Is this a deliberate post for engagement,
(07:10):
But it was just interesting to watch to see what
people perceived and came in to say in an instance
like that, what is masculinity and what is toxic masculinity
in your view?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Well, I will say I don't adhere to the concept
or the idea of toxic masculinity. I know what most
people are attempting to say when they use that term,
that if you use and I'm going to share a
little bit about what the definition is, that if you
use your characteristics, your inherent characteristics as a man, based
on your biological makeup, for selfish pursuits at the expense
(07:48):
of other people, what they're saying is that is a
toxic use of masculinity. But I don't use that term
because it's become conflated and it became a tool to
portray all men as bad and immoral and wrong. And
I say that because at least here in the We
have an association called the American Psychological Association that in
(08:13):
several years ago, I don't know the year right offhand,
but several years ago came out with a study and
I'm using quotations deliberately because it was very loosely based,
that said that the characteristics that we would generally consider
an attribute to men, and they named four dominance, stoicism, aggression,
and competitiveness, are inherently destructive and dangerous to our young men.
(08:36):
I don't agree with that premise at all. Dominance, aggression, stoicism,
and competition. I'll give you an example aggression. If I'm
walking down the road and I see a young woman
and she's alone, and I decide that I'm going to
use my capacity for aggression, violence, and physical dominance to
(08:58):
assault her physically, sexually, or steal something from her, I
think all of us would agree that that is an
improper use of masculinity. Generally, we would all accept that
to be true. If, however, I'm walking down that same
street and I see another man attempting to do that
to the woman, and I step in and I neutralize
(09:19):
that threat with the same dominance, aggression, and capacity for
physical violence. I think the majority, the overwhelming majority of
people would agree that that is an appropriate use of
my masculine characteristics. So the way that I define masculinity
is not that it is either moral or a moral
good or bad. It's neither. It's a moral meaning. It's
(09:44):
not good nor bad. It just depends on how you
use it. So to answer your question, how do you
define masculinity? Very simply, it's the characteristics that we as
men possess inherently as a result of our biological makeup.
That's it. Women can possess some some of those attributes
as well, and at times they can be even better
(10:04):
at us, better at things than us in certain cases,
and people will make that all the time, you know.
For example, I might say men are stronger than women,
and inevitably I'll get this, well, well, my sister in
law is an Olympic gold medalist and she's stronger than you.
While that might be true, that's an exception that doesn't
(10:25):
disprove the rule. When I say men are stronger than women,
I'm saying, in general, the average strength of a man
and size, frankly, is going to be greater than that
of a woman. That isn't meant as an insult. It
just is the way it is. We're bigger, we're stronger,
our bone density is greater. It's just the way that
(10:45):
we're built. And that's how I view masculinity. I will
throw this caveat in because I think it's really important.
The way that we harness our masculine characteristics for what
I would call productive outcomes for other people is what
I would call manliness. So if I see somebody assaulting
a woman on the street, and I use my capacity
(11:08):
for violence to neutralize that threat, then I think all
of us would agree that person is a man. He
is acting like a man, or he is manly. Manliness
is your ability to harness your masculine characteristics for productive
and effective outcomes for yourself and for other people.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
All right, talk to me about what you do. I
had a look at your website. I was like this,
the branding's awesome. This is awesome.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
I love what you think.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
You want to know the background and this story of
you and what you developed and why.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah. So, like I said, I started this movement is
called Order of Man in twenty fifteen. I was a
financial advisor at the time, and I was doing very
well with the business, making good money, helping a lot
of clients. I found a lot of value in the
work that I did, and I started a podcast to
pick up new financial planning clients. And I realized very
(12:06):
very quickly that I love this medium of podcasting, but
I don't want to continue to have this same type
of conversation that I've had over the past nine years
up to that point. So I decided that I would
start this conversation on learning what it means to be
a man. And I never positioned myself out ahead of anybody.
(12:28):
And you said earlier your expertise. I kind of cringe
a little bit when I hear that, because although I
do know a lot about it, because I've invested so
much time and energy and resources into it, I don't
consider myself better than any other man. I might be
better in certain areas, or or at least further down
the track than other people, and other men are further
(12:48):
down the track than I am in certain areas. So
the whole mission was to band together as men, start
working together, start sharing ideas and resource and conversations, and
see how we might be able to push and motivate
and inspire each other and hold each other accountable to
(13:08):
doing better at being fathers and husbands and leaders in
our communities and owners of our businesses and every other
capacity in which we show up. So, like I said,
I started in twenty fifteen and it took off, which
was a testament to the fact that men really wanted
resources like this, they just weren't available. And you see
a lot more now ten years later, and I hope
(13:30):
to think that we're a small part of that growth
and that inspiration and men trying to band together and
work together and really try to be more virtuous. So
we do that through the podcast and events and different
things like that.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Now, what did you learn? What did you learn?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
What did you think you were going to learn or
what did you want to learn? And was it what
you ended up learning or learning?
Speaker 3 (13:56):
I mean, there's a lot that I've learned. I've gosh,
at this point, I've done fifteen I think almost sixteen
hundred podcasts at this point now, which is crazy, crazy
to think I snelling double me that well you are,
I mean eight hundred is even eight hundred? Is that
where you're at right now?
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Night seventy something?
Speaker 3 (14:17):
That's amazing?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Thank you?
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Yeah, I mean, most people will quit after ten or
twenty episodes, so the fact that you can get to
one hundred, let alone eight hundred, is incredible. Yeah. Yeah,
So we've done quite a few podcasts. I've talked with
a lot of incredible people that have taught me a lot.
I didn't really come into it with many expectations of
what I would learn. I just thought, Hey, if somebody
(14:38):
has an idea on how I might be able to
have a better conversation with one of my kids, or
if they have some insight into how I might be
able to, you know, lose twenty pounds or secure a
promotion at work, you know, little little things that don't
seem like a big deal, but to average ordinary people
like we are, that's a big deal. If you get
(14:59):
a raise in you start making two, three, four, five
thousand dollars more a year, that's a big deal. If
you lose twenty pounds this quarter or in the next
six months, that's a huge deal. If you re spark
a relationship or learn how to open up and communicate
with one of your children that you've been having a
hard time resonating with, that is a big deal. And
(15:20):
you know, I've been able to do all of those
things as far as as far as what I've learned
and maybe what I've implemented to varying degrees. It's having
a system, and I look at this as a twofold approach.
So what any person, whether they're a man or a
woman needs in their life to be successful generally is
(15:40):
frameworks and networks. That's all we need. The way that
women generally approach networking is different than the way men do,
and that's fine, but we both still need networks. Women
tend to be a lot more relational, men tend to
be a lot more directional. We talk about that if
we want, but still the network is important. And then
(16:01):
the framework is looking at other people who have done
what we want to do and mimicking them I wouldn't
say copying, but mimicking cloning, you know, trying to figure
out what it is that they did in order to
achieve the results that we wanted. And once we have
those frameworks, if we can know what they are and
break them down effectively and then implement them consistently, it's
(16:25):
only a matter of time before we start experiencing similar results.
So that's what I'm always after networks and frameworks. Everything
else is anclarty to that.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
I would love you to dive into the networking the
way that women network in the way that men networks.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
I would love to learn.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
But I having a lot of conversations with a lot
of women in business around here, and they're often coming
up with that frustration of putting so much time and
energy and effort into business and into networking just to
come up against roadblocks or bottlenecks or just burn out
before they really get results. And sure, what can we
(17:03):
learn from men and the male approach to that that
might benefit us?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Yeah, well, I'm glad you asked that, And I will
say this, women in business are a bit of an
anomaly typically. I have, you know, many friends who are
women who are not necessarily entrepreneurs or business owners or
even in the corporate world, and there's a difference generally
in the way they look at life versus a woman
(17:30):
potentially even like yourself, who is you know, has this
podcast and has this movement, and women like that tend
to be a little bit more masculine in their approach that.
I mean, that's again, that's not a slight by any means.
It's just it's more of a masculine energy that you
would see relative to a woman who decides to stay
(17:51):
at home exclusively as a homemaker and a housewife and
a mom. Again, nothing wrong with either, It just is
what it is. But when I talk about it generally,
when I say women are relational, women can sit and
look at each other and communicate towards each other. So
(18:13):
you'll see women do this when they go to out
for a girls' night or a restaurant. They're all sitting
together or they're all in a circle and they're looking
at each other, and they're facing each other, and they're
communicating directly, and they're looking at each other bouncing ideas
off of sharing stories, laughing, joking, playing, etc. Whereas men, generally,
(18:34):
we tend to bond better directionally. So even when you
see men sit together, for example, we don't generally sit
together in circles in groups and look at each other.
We line up and we face outward or inward, but
we're all facing the same direction. Yeah, and you can
look at it in sports for example, you know you
(18:54):
see an offensive lineman in football, or maybe I don't
know rugby really well, but rugby would be the equivalent
I imagine from in your part of the world.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Right, We've got AFL football down here in Melbourne, so
I don't really know rugby that will either.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Okay, yeah, so well bad analogy then, but somebody does,
I'm sure. But we're directional. We're what we're doing is
we're either working on something. So you know, I think
of the Amish that are raising barns together and they're
not sitting talking and conversing. They're directing and they're moving
and they're building, or there's an enemy. So you can
(19:32):
think of it in the context of sports like I
just said, or even military combat. We create ranks, we
create rows, and we line up shoulder to shoulder, and
we face the enemy and we deal with the enemy
the way that we need to. That's the difference. So
if you're asking me what can a woman do to
have a better connection in a masculine, male driven environment,
(19:55):
which is typically going to be the case in corporate arenas,
we don't need the relationship talk. We need some we
need a challenge, we need a common enemy, or we
need a common objective and so let's not sit around
and converse and talk and like get to know each other.
I'll get to know you through the project that we're
(20:15):
working on. That's how men relate to each other. And
I think if women understood that, there would probably be
less of this drive for men to behave like women.
And it's funny you see these memes like men will
do anything except for go to therapy, and it's like, well, yeah,
like we will go lift, we will go build a
(20:38):
rebuild an engine, we will go build a cabinet, we
will go cut down trees. As if to say that
those things don't have any therapeutic relevancy. That of course
they do. But just because a woman might not find
the same sort of therapeutic benefit, isn't to say that
(20:58):
men can't find therapy in lifting heavyweights or mowing the
lawn or rebuilding an engine. It's just different.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
I love that I'm thinking about some of my friends'
specific areas of business and that kind of polarizing position
they're in where where they're breaking into, especially around things
like sports. They're breaking into areas where they're building businesses
around sport, and the females in that sport a lot. Yeah,
I'll not the females specifically, but female aspect of that
(21:31):
sport is a lot younger, so the funding and everything
is a lot more difficult. What advice do you have
for women like that in stating a case or trying
to get the women's sport and support and branding on
the same level as the men's.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Well, this is going to be this is going to
be a sensitive conversation, so I hope it comes across
as it's intended. But if I'm understanding you correctly, you're
wondering how a women's team can build up the same
sort of relevancy and influence as a men's sports team can.
(22:14):
Is that Is that what you're asking me?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yeah, And I guess in situations where you're leaning into
corporate alliances and sponsorships and branding and relationships in business,
just trying to find footing there and build a similar
level of support.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Yeah, I honestly, I don't know if that will I
don't know if that will ever happen. And I'll tell
you why, Okay, I know, And I'm and again, this
is where I'm trying to be. I'm trying to be
sensitive of the desire but also be realistic about what's
what's happening. So predominantly men are more interested in sports
(22:55):
than women. Would you agree with that or would you disagree?
Probably it's fine if you disagree, but I mean we
need to because even as an.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Athlete, I have no interest in watching the most sports.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Right And so if the majority of men, if the
majority of people who are watching sports and competition are men,
then it's safe to say that we are probably more
interested in watching men than we would be watching women.
Would you agree with that or is that off base?
Speaker 1 (23:25):
I think I would agree with that.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
And so that's the reality. It's just a matter of
how many people are interested relative to how many people
are engaged in it. So the reality is is that
women's sports has a significantly smaller base from which to
draw support. And people might say, well, that's unfair and
(23:49):
women should make as much as men make. Doesn't have
anything to do with it. It's just a measurement of value.
And I think a lot of the times people get
some things mixed up with what value means. If, for example,
I want to be valuable to you in this conversation,
I actually am not the one who gets to determine
(24:11):
what is valuable. You do. You're the one that invited me,
and you get to decide whether or not I'm adding
value to you in your audience or not. And conversely,
when you're trying to put together this podcast and program
that you have, you don't get to decide what's valuable
to your audience. They have the vote, and they vote
with their time, attention, energy, and money. So it's not
(24:36):
really a measurement of well, women should get paid as
much as men because they're playing and these guys are playing. No,
it's not that. It's just a measurement of perceived value. Now,
if you're doing identical work, So if I have, for example,
an emergency room doctor who's a male and I have
another emergency room doctor who's a female, assuming they're doing
(25:00):
the same work, same amount hours, same amount of schooling,
same amount of capability, I would suggest that those two
are to get paid the same. Of course, that only
makes sense to me, and I think most people would
agree with that. But when it comes to offering a service,
and sports entertainment is a service, it's really just a
measurement of perceived value. And I think you're going to
(25:22):
have to figure out a way in women's sports how
to offer more value to either your current potential demographic
or expand that demographic to other people who may not
have heard of it before or may not have seen
it before.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
I also think that that over time and development of
sports where women are entering predominantly male sports now, I
think that that is also going to change with skill development.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Like to watch absolutely yeah, yeah, I mean look at
one example that I've seen, this is ten years ago
to see a woman.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
You're in martial arts? Are you box boxing? Okay? So
if you look at UFC, which I'm sure you're familiar with, yep,
it's if you look at ten fifteen years ago. And
I was gonna say this with as much respect as
I can, I was not interested in watching two women
fight ten to fifteen years ago in the UFC because
(26:29):
of the skill The skill was so subpar relative to
what I could watch men do that it just wasn't
of interest to me. But you look at it now,
ten fifteen years later, these women are absolutely incredible, and
the level to which they have developed a skill set
only makes the sport for women more relevant. But that's
(26:51):
what I was saying. It's now more valuable for other
demographics to watch it, whereas ten years ago. Yeah, frankly,
just not interested.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah, I'm sure it was really interesting.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
I did my first fight into that in twelve and
it was via a twelve week boxing challenge, So I
was complete nothing before that, never never thrown a you know,
never thrown a punch at the face before we did
a twelve week challenge and I fell in love with it.
I'd ended up doing three of those, and the session
round I remember trying to extend it.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
In order to take part.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
You then commit to selling twenty tickets to cover the
cost of your training, so you sell twenty tickets. And
for the girls, there was mostly mostly blokes, but normally
two or three fights with girls, so four to six
girls involved in every show. And it was so common
that people did not want to see their girlfriends, their
(27:42):
female friends getting They're like, I don't I don't want
to watch, you know, I don't want to watch women fight.
But what was really interesting was the amount of times
that the feedback was the women's fights. Because everyone in
that particular challenge is a novice, complete novel.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Everyone's on the same there's no skill there at all.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Yeah, yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
The technical mindsets of the females that were coming in
really showed difference and so many people commented on how
much more they preferred a lot of the female fights.
It was really interesting to me back then. I was like, wow, like,
no one wants to watch his fight, and then next minute, Oh,
all the girls fights are really great.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
It is, it is, It's very interesting, and I think
specifically in the world of martial arts, people who are
not familiar with it all will just assume that it's
just this brutal, savage, violent sport, and it is in
a lot of ways. But there's an art, and there's
(28:49):
a science, and there's discipline, and there's commitment, and there's dedication,
and there's sacrifice, and there's honor and respect towards your competitor.
It's so much deeper than that that when people begin
to see what's under the surface, they can find a
new level of respect, not just for mixed martial arts
or boxing or wrestling or jiu jitsu, but for all
(29:10):
sorts of sports that have such a deeper I played
sports in high school, nothing more than that, but it
was those things were foundational, pivotal moment. There's lessons that
I can vividly remember my coach as an eighteen year
old kid telling me that I still say as a
forty three year old man, because of the lessons he
instilled in us, it's sports are amazing for not just
(29:34):
the sport itself, but just character development in general.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Yeah. Yeah, what's it like? I'm thinking about a parenthood
for men. When you talked about that before, it was
really interesting just in my mind thinking about what goes
through a man's mind when he becomes a parent for
the first time, and where does he get an understanding
of what it means to be What does that do
to your identity?
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Yeah? I think, I think so. There's a lot of
moments where I think a man becomes a man, or
at least moves in that direction, and they're pivotal moments
in his life. I would say if there's some element
of sports is definitely a place that a boy can
turn into a man. A military service is another place,
and there's some key factors. We can get into it
(30:20):
if we want, but there's some key factors that make
that so. Getting married is another time. Having kids is
certainly a time where a boy can become a man,
and the reason is is because he now has responsibility
above and beyond himself. I often tell people the difference
between a boy and a man is that a boy
(30:41):
consumes more than he produces, and a man produces more
than he consumes. We're all consumers. It's just a matter
of whether or not you're an asset or a liability.
So is your production greater than your consumption? If it is,
then you're acting like a man, because now not only
are you serving yourself and your own needs, you've made
(31:03):
yourself capable physically, mentally, financially of providing for and caring
for other people. And that's what hit fatherhood did for me.
Is now I think where a woman might believe, Okay,
I have this little child to take care of, and
I need to learnture and love and care for. For
a man, it's like, this kid is my responsibility. I
(31:23):
have to put food on the table. I have to
make sure this child is safe and protected and has
a home. I guess women probably feel the same way,
but I think generally the role might be slightly different.
Generally speaking, it's not the same for every dynamic. But yeah,
I mean, it certainly gave me an element of responsibility
above and beyond myself and realized that it's no longer
(31:47):
about me, it's about us and them than it is me.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Yeah, was that a big Like what were your expectations
about becoming a dad and how different was the experience.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Well, I didn't really have a father growing up, had
I hadn't. My dad was primarily out of the picture
by the time I was three or four years old,
you know. I saw him once a year or twice
a year, something like that. And I had a couple
of stepfathers comingto my life who were there and there
were glimpses of moments that I thought were appropriate between
father and son. But for the most part, I didn't
(32:22):
really have a great example of what it meant to
be a man and a father. So I actually floundered
a lot, you know, and I still do. I still
don't have it figured out. You know. My oldest is sixteen,
my youngest is eight, and I'm still floundering around most
of the time trying to figure out how to do
this thing we call fatherhood. But I don't know that
I had a lot of expectations. I just couldn't believe
(32:42):
how much attention was required. You know. It was amazing
to me to think about how much of your life
is no longer yours. It really isn't. It's now theirs,
and they permeate every space in the house and dominate
every conversation, whether they can speak or not. And so
(33:03):
I know that sounds a negative. It's not. It's beautiful.
It's just a lot of work, especially as a new father,
and I'm sure a new mother feels very much the
same way. It is daunting and overwhelming, especially when you've
never done it. You know, women have maybe a great
example and their mother of what it meant to be
a mom, or maybe a horrible example of what it
meant to be a mom, and dads have the same
(33:24):
in their dads and moms as well. And you could
have had the best parent in the world and still
you were going to feel completely inadequate. So for me,
I think if I were to do it all over again,
I would say to myself, you know, let go of
the expectations, take it in stride a little bit when
(33:44):
things happen, afford yourself some grace, try to be patient.
Patience is a big one. I wish I would have
learned a lot earlier. Patience and grace. I think, more
than anything, it's not necessarily my style, especially when I
was younger, but God has a way of teaching us
the things that we need to learn.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Without your own role model in your life as a father,
where did you did you seek out some sort of
a mental or an idea of where to get that
male role model?
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Yeah, well I started. I started Order a Man for
a lot of those reasons, like I needed help myself.
So in a lot of ways, what I did with
my business in this movement was for my own selfish desires.
I didn't know how to do it. And I started
this movement when I was thirty three years old, so
that would have been eight or nine years after my
(34:47):
first child. And I was still floundering eight nine years
into it trying to figure it out. And then the
minute you think you have it figured out, they get
a little older and hormones start raging and that changes
and then you think, okay, well I got that figured out.
And then you have an one come into your life
and like, hey, I got that figured out, and then
all of a sudden, it's like, well, now you have
a daughter. It's like okay, and then that's different, and
then all of their personalities are different. Then my youngest
(35:09):
came and he's the wild one and I love him
to death, but it's like put turned everything upside down.
It's like you never have a foothold. So I learned
a lot and through my sports years. I talked about
one of my coaches when I was in high school
who I'm still really good friends with and we talk
periodically even well, what is it now, almost thirty twenty
(35:31):
five years later now and we still are talking and
having conversations. Military was a big one. I joined the
military when I was young, and so I spent some
time in the military, including a combat tour in Iraq.
So I learned a lot from men there, and I
have good men in my corner now. But I've been
very deliberate and intentional about seeking out the best friends
(35:52):
and the best counsel I could find.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
So interesting, like I love the background and how your
way you are now and the brands that you have
developed came from like it feels so in a way.
There's so many similarities between how I started in podcasting,
as it was like I just all right, HiT's just
hit the fan in middle of COVID, I'm on to
(36:15):
do something, Well, what interests me?
Speaker 1 (36:17):
What do I want to learn?
Speaker 2 (36:18):
And then a suddenly I looked over my shoulder and
people were following that, and it's like, oh, and it
taught me so much because I remember thinking a few
months and I was like, if I had a planned
to build some successful brand and business, there's no way
I would have built this following because I would have
been looking at it and trying to manipulate it.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
But so I love that. I love that about your interesting.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
I never expected to kind of hear your background coming
from you know, this bloke in finance in the finance world,
and then ending up where you are now, Like, I
love that so much.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
I think it's a good lesson. You know, it sounds
like you're doing it very much the same way. I
think anybody who's trying to start something would be in
their interest to at least explore what solutions they need
in their life. I think you can be a lot
more genuine and honest about your own struggles, your own challenges.
(37:17):
I think you'll definitely be able to relate to the
people you want to serve significantly more. That's why a
lot of times, sometimes well a lot of times, people
will say, well, Ryan, the advice that you give applies
to women too. And I would actually agree. You know,
ninety percent of the things that we talk about are
applicable to men and women. And so they ask me,
why is it that you only speak to men on
(37:39):
your podcast? Your movements called Order of Men, you only
address men. I don't mind if women listen. We have
plenty of women listeners and followers. And you found our
movement through somehow like I love it. It's great. But
I know who we speak to and the way that
I can communicate a message that might apply broadly to
both men and women. I can do better because I
(38:01):
know how to communicate and deliver it to a man.
Because I'm a man, I don't know how to resonate
the same message to a woman as effectively as I
can a man, because I don't know what it's like
to be a woman, and I don't know what she
would resonate with. So for me, and I think for
you too, just be yourself, solve your own problems, find
solutions to your own problems, and then as you figure
(38:22):
them out, share them with people, and the people who
are like you, who have the same types of problems
will find and be attracted to what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Yeah, when I was like just looking over your stuff.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
It was I don't know, something comes out of it
like that because I was looking, Okay, I'm well aware
that this is order of man, this is for blokes,
but there was something really genuine about the energy of
it where I was like, well, I would like to
look what this thirty day plan is. I feel like
it would resonate with me. I'm like, and it's just
because of I guess, the authenticity that you have behind
(38:54):
it and the way that it speaks for itself.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
Well, and I think a lot of times people you
use words like that, like authenticity and vulnerable. There's a
handful of words that people use, and they've used them
so much that it just becomes a manipulation tactic, like
I want to be authentic, I want to be vulnerable.
It's like, well, hold on, what do you think that means. Well,
it means sharing a message my audience wants to hear.
Now that's not what it means. What it means is
(39:21):
share the message that you want to hear. Yeah, share
the message that you want to share, Share the struggles
that you currently have, share the ways that you overcame those.
And it's not to be self absorbed. It's so that
you can share things in a way that lands because
you're being honest about it. If you're trying to manipulate
and trick and deceive, it's just not going to be
(39:42):
as successful as if you say, hey, here's where I am. Flaws,
things I do well, things I don't do well, things
I've done well in my life, things where I've really
faltered and failed, and take it or leave it. But
I'm on this path and I'm on this mission. I
think people resonate with that much more deeply because we're tired.
We're tired of being tricked and deceived and manipulated by
(40:05):
people online that don't live a life in accordance with
what they're sharing or they're teaching. And I've been guilty
of that personally. But it goes better when I'm being
who I really am.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Yeah, And you do have to You have to watch
for it, don't you, because it can so easy. Like
I think, I coach a lot of people, and far
out I've needed a lot of coaching over my life.
Don't worry like, but I think at times when I realized,
hang on, do I do things because I want to
do them? Or do I do things because some unconscious
conditioning and as a reaction to the feedback that I
(40:44):
get outside of me when I do it, or the
perception of oh, you're good at this, so you should
do it, and that feels good too, And then you
start doing something and go, this isn't really my jam.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
I don't think it's as.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Easy is just going yeah, I'm being authentic all of
the time, unless you take the time to step out
of your world in your life and go, am I
still on track?
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Right? Well? And I also think it's a fine line
because authenticity doesn't mean that you shouldn't consider putting your
best foot forward, right, So I spend I mean I've
spent hundreds of thousands of dollars over the past ten
years with like learning technology and buying the right microphone
(41:27):
and getting the camera and getting the lighting that you
see here just right, investing thank you, yeah, and investing
in tools and resources and coaching like you mentioned. I've
invested all of that money. But I don't think that
just because you attempt to put your best foot forward,
you're being disingenuous. The analogy I might use is when
(41:50):
you know, I don't wear a suit on a daily basis.
But if I go to church, I'm going to put
a suit on. Am I being disingenuous? I don't think so.
I think I'm honoring God and I'm honoring and respecting
the other people who are there. Yeah, So it doesn't
make me disingenuous to put my best foot forward. It's
if I'm using it to manipulate or trick. And in
(42:12):
this case, when I buy a new camera so I
can improve the audio or the video quality of our podcast,
it's not to trick and deceive. It's to put my
best foot forward because I honor and respect the people
who would listen to the message we're trying to share.
It's the motive that, really, I think is the greatest driver.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Always always referring back to intention, you know, it's like, yes,
right to fuck things up, but what's your intention? Like
it's all right if you hurt someone's feelings, but what's
your intention? So, if we're going to have a difficult
conversation with potential conflict, what is your intention? If your
intention is good, you're not trying to hurt, but you're
(42:52):
just being honest, Well, then you can't beat yourself up
over four outcomes.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
Yeah, and you still can, I think a little bit,
because even though you're well intentioned, you know, let's say
I had to have a conversation with one of my
children about something they were doing. My intention is to
teach them lessons that will serve them into adulthood. But
even if my intention is pure, which I think for
(43:20):
the most part it is, I can still do a
horrible job delivering it. You know, I could be completely impatient,
and I could be rude, and I could be brash,
and I could be insensitive in sharing those things. So
I don't think intention alone is enough. I think intention
is crucial, But then we also have to consider am
(43:41):
I going to accomplish the task at hand. So my
intention in this case is to teach my children lessons
they can take into adulthood. But if I'm a jerk
about it, they're not going to learn a lesson. They're
just going to be bitter and hostile towards me, and
it's going to fracture the relationship to some degree. But
if I do it properly, then not only am I
teaching the lesson, but it's being received in a way
(44:05):
where they'll actually be able to apply it now and
well into the future.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
Yeah, How do you how do you navigate that relationship
between having a relationship with your children and also being
the parent.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Well, I I don't really know that they're they're different.
My I should say it this way. My relationship with
my children is I'm the dad and they're the my children.
Like I'm not. We're not buddies, we're not friends. Like
we're friendly. There's friendly elements. We have good times, and
(44:46):
we laugh and play and joke and tease, and we
do all those things that friends would do. But I
would never in a million years take myself off the
mantle of father to a lower tier of friend.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
So I think being a father is significantly more important
than friends. Is that what you're asking though, because I
think it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No. Our relationship is
I'm your dad and your my son or my daughter,
and that's how we engage. And that when I say
that it could sound harsh like I'm the dad. It's
(45:19):
not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying I am
in the position, and I believe that authority comes directly
through God, that I'm in the position to be responsible
for you. I am your shepherd. He has entrusted me
with raising you, and that's my job. And I don't
always get it right. In fact, I would say the
(45:39):
majority of the time I get it wrong, but I'm
trying to figure it out. But it's from the lens
of father, never friend, never buddy, I'm your dad.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Yeah, yeah, I guess.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
I feel like over so many years, the landscape has
changed in terms of the world. Children grow up in
what they have access to, their ideas and perceptions of
the world, and you know, families that may or may
not stay together, and then you know, there's so many
variables that shift the position potentially, and I just reckon
(46:15):
could when I think about it, it would make that I
guess when you are a parent. I'm not so I
don't have no idea, zero zero experience here, but yeah,
I feel like, when I think about it, there will
be a hard balance. Like I don't even kids classes
in the gym. I'm like, give me one kid, maybe two,
(46:38):
but don't give me a class of kids because then
I can't maint like I struggle with that. I'm like, oh,
it's really hard to wrangle these kids because I'm not
used to them.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
I don't know the rules here.
Speaker 3 (46:50):
Well, it is a selfless pursuit.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
You know.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
I think about times where I might need a discipline
one of my children. I don't want to do that.
I don't think any parent really truly wants to do that.
The unfortunate thing is that we have so many cowards
as parents that won't discipline their children, not because they're
worried about their children, but because they're worried about their
own sensitive feelings and how they'll feel that they have
(47:13):
to discipline their child. Yeah, that's the problem, and that's
where the selflessness comes in. That the best thing I
can do in this situation is for me and them
to be uncomfortable for a little bit while we have
a discussion that needs to take place. Yeah, so that's
not for the feint of heart. And if you're planning
on I'm not saying you personally, but if anybody's planning
(47:36):
on being weak or passive or cowardly, parenthood probably isn't
the path for you.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Yeah, yeah, you got any What are your big plans
for the future? Do you have any big aspirations?
Speaker 3 (47:51):
I mean, I have things that I want to do
within the business. Again, I really work in those ninety
day segments, so I have directions that I want to go,
And when I think about vision for the future, I
think more about the type of person I want to
be and not so much aspirational on what I want
to do. So I think about not what kind of
(48:12):
house do I want to live in? But can I
be the kind of man who gets to choose what
kind of house he gets to live in? Or am
I constrained by my lack of financial success? Right? So
it's no longer about the house or the things or
the cars. It's about my behavior. So when I think
about myself into five and ten years, I can really
(48:34):
vision in vision even what kind of grandfather I would be,
and how I would show up and the conversations I
would have, and how I'm disciplined at work in order
to create financial prosperity and abundance for me and my
loved ones and people that were trying to serve. What
kind of leader I want to be in the organization,
what kind of visionary I want to be, how I
(48:55):
want to cast vision and share with others and bring
other people in. I like this way because it leaves
me open to opportunities I think might be closed off
if I said, well, I want to have this house
and live in this place and make this much money
and do these certain things. Again, I don't know what
I'm having for dinner tonight, so I like to leave
it open to what might come. You know, I have
(49:16):
forty three years old. I never would have imagined the things.
In fact, my girlfriend and I were talking this morning
about it, or this afternoon sometime about just changes in
technology with our cell phones. We were kind of reminiscing
on old days where you'd be at the house and
you'd have the phone on the wall and you have
the spiral cord and you have to go around the
kitchen because you're trying to talk to Like I'd be
(49:38):
trying to talk to a girl that I had a
crush on, but I didn't want my mom or my
sister to listen. But you can only go so far.
I would have never have guessed twenty years ago, maybe
a little longer, maybe maybe thirty years ago, that we'd
have these supercomputers the size of you know, a little
disc that fit in our pocket that we carry everywhere.
I would never have imagined that. And I don't I
(50:00):
know what the next twenty years is going to hold either.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
That is.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Can you imagine today being a parent and when your
child leaves the house, they tell you where they're going
to go, and then you cannot contact them until you
know there wherever they said they'll be, And if you
ring there and they're not there, you have no idea
where they are.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
Yeah, isn't that wild about it today?
Speaker 3 (50:24):
But it is. But that's what we did when we
were kids. Or I remember like on a Saturday, I'm like,
I want to go hang out with my friends, Like
we didn't call our friends. I got on my bike
and rode around the neighborhood and then I would see, oh,
there's all the bikes. They're at the park, or they're
at Billy's house. And so I would just go over
to Billy's house and knock on the door and his
mom would answer and say come on I and Billy's
(50:44):
in the back with the kids and we'd all play
for the day or whatever. It's such a weird change
in that culture, not always for the best. There's some
amazing technology that I love, and I use technology every day,
but there's some nostalgia there that I think in a
lot of ways we're missing. Intern culture went to.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
The movies the other day and person in front of
me I must have been a parent and must have
been watching tracking on one of their kids, because they
just kept looking at their phone.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
Awesome movie, it was amazing.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
They kept looking at their phone and I could see
them looking at a map with a little spot on
it that was they were watching with.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
And I was like, Okay, so you're a mum and you.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Can't watch this amazing movie because you're you're anxious and
following where your kid is right now.
Speaker 1 (51:30):
And what a shame.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
Yeah, I mean, think about the level of anxiety that
our supercomputers in our pockets create. Jumping on I do
it all the time, jumping on social media. I'm like, well,
how come I don't have as many followers as that person?
Or how come I'm not as popular as this person.
It's it's unreal. It happens. It's hard.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Oh so true, so true.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Hey, you you've been ace. You're really I really enjoy
talking to you. Can you point my listeners?
Speaker 1 (51:55):
Yeah? Thank you?
Speaker 2 (51:56):
Point my listeners to where they can find you and
follow you online and any you lucture promote that you're doing.
Speaker 3 (52:01):
Currently Yeah, I mean Order of Man dot com is
where you can find. You know, it's our home home base,
so that has all of our stuff. Order of Man podcast.
I'm very active on Instagram, mostly at Ryan Mickler, and
then as far as what we have going on, I'm
not sure when you're planning on releasing this conversation, but
in May we've got an event in Saint Louis and
(52:24):
the United States and that's at the Men'sforge dot Com.
So that's the big thing that I'm really focused on
right now.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Awesome, Well, this.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Will be happen a couple of weeks, so plenty of
time able to hear that and book in. Thanks again, Ryan,
it's been amazing.
Speaker 3 (52:39):
Thank you. I appreciate you. I appreciate the opportunity as well.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
You're welcome. Thanks everyone,
Goody team.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Welcome to another episode of Role with the Punches podcast.
I'm your host, Tif Cook, and today we are having
a chat to Ryan Mickler. He is the founder of
Order of Man and he's all about helping blokes step up,
take charge and lead with purpose. We're having a chat
about all of that, things like talking about masculinity, talking
(00:22):
about responsibility, what it actually means to be a man
in today's world, and everything from personal growth to fatherhood.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I love this chat. It's a ripper. I hope you
enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
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Speaker 1 (01:10):
Ryan Mickla, welcome to Roll with the Punches.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Thank you, glad to be here. I've been looking forward
to the conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
So fine.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
It's going to be a big one. It's going to
be a big one. First of all, how are you
and how's your twenty twenty five kicked off?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
So far?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
So far, so good. I can't believe we're already almost
a four month into it as of this recording. It's crazy.
We were talking about it before we hit record, how
fast everything goes. But it's been good. We've got some
big plans this year and doing some strategizing and growing
and building relationships with kids and everything else. So it's
been a good twenty twenty five so far.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Nice do you do? Do you do a start of
the year? What went well? How's it going to go?
Like New Year's resolution or a plan or a twelvemonth thing?
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Yeah, in a way, not a twelve month thing. I
plan in ninety day segments. So I've got my planner
that I use right here, and it's it's basically my
ninety day battle plan. So I have four plans per year.
So what I ended up doing is in December, I
start planning out what's going to happen in January, February,
March of twenty twenty five, and what I'm going to
(02:16):
do and how I'm going to make it work and
everything else, and then about two to three weeks prior
to the next quarter is when I do what you said,
that review of what worked, what didn't work, what do
I need to tweak, what do I need to keep
the same, all of those sorts of things.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
I don't think you know how much I love that.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
I just wrote that down with way too much enthusiasm
because I think this ninety kay breakdown is such a
mee thing, Like I think that I would love that
way more than I don't know what's this year going
to do, and it's a long time, it's a goal,
So that's I'm good with short term staff.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Well, I don't even know really what I'm going to
have for dinner tonight, let alone what's going to happen
by the end of the year. So if we start
planning and strategizing based on the next twelve months, there's
a lot of uncertainty to that. Yeah, you know, I
don't know about you know, politics were in your part
of the world, but in this part of the world,
politics and you know, global issues and conflict and the
(03:13):
economy just changes everything and we don't have any control
over that. So we have to roll with those punches
to use the title your podcast a little bit. But
I like ninety day Goals because it's long enough where
you can actually experience some results, but it's short enough
for me and my attention span that it keeps me interested.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, yeah, I love it. Your area of expertise in masculinity?
Has that been a I don't know how interesting has
that been lately? Is that the way that masculine? I
don't know if it's the same where you are, but here,
Over the last year or so, there's been a lot
(03:55):
more talk about masculinity, whether it's positive or negative. There's
so much more in and when that happens, it always
brings so many more people into the conversation from all
different standpoints. Has it been something that you need to
curate really carefully so that the people are getting the
correct message of what you're delivering.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I tend on to be careful. That that isn't probably
the word that I would use, just because careful means
that you could very easily get into manipulation or betraying
yourself when you start worrying so much about how other
people might perceive your messaging or what you have to say. Now,
I try to be smart and tactful about what I present, because,
(04:37):
as always, I think anybody who wants to achieve in
their life wants to put their best foot forward. But
I am really cautious in not filtering the things that
I want to say and the conversations I want to
have based on outside responses to them. And what I
found is that the people that want to have the
conversations that I want to have find us and end
(05:00):
up engaged in those conversations and other programs and things
like that we have and other people. In a lot
of ways, there's a lot of people that despise the
work I do, but that's not really my issue. I
feel pretty secure with what we're doing here. I will say, though,
So I started doing this. Let's see, well it's almost
ten years ago, so March will be ten, our ten
(05:21):
year anniversary. And when I started talking about it and
thank you, yeah, in twenty fifteen, I don't know that
there was a lot of dismissal and attack, at least,
you know, on our side of the globe towards masculinity
like you might see today. But I think we were
on the cusp of seeing a lot more of that
(05:43):
and that happened, and I was a voice, and other
people became voices, and it got pretty bad where there
was this outright dismissal and attack and almost hostility frankly
towards the concept of masculinity and manliness. But I think
you alluded to it minute ago. Over the past even
six months to a year, I would say, there's really
(06:05):
an insurgence of men knowing that they need to step
up as men, men having a desire to do that,
women honoring the fact that men are men and we're
not at odds with each other, that we compliment each
other very well, and we had to find ways to
work together. That seems to be a relatively new development
based on my experience over the past ten years.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I saw an interesting post on socials the other day,
and I can't remember who it was. It was a
huge account and it was a bloke that had a
gym and he had this like a montage of doing
crossfity workouts and kind of wrestling with a young kid,
and the heading on it said, if this is toxic masculinity,
(06:48):
and then it shows all this, you know, like pushing
sleds and doing battle ropes, and it's like we need
more of this, and I thought, oh, this will this
will be an interesting comment section, and just everybody jumping
in with their outrage, and it was just so interesting
because it was like, there's nothing toxic about that. That's
not toxic masculinity. Is this a deliberate post for engagement,
(07:10):
But it was just interesting to watch to see what
people perceived and came in to say in an instance
like that, what is masculinity and what is toxic masculinity
in your view?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Well, I will say I don't adhere to the concept
or the idea of toxic masculinity. I know what most
people are attempting to say when they use that term,
that if you use and I'm going to share a
little bit about what the definition is, that if you
use your characteristics, your inherent characteristics as a man, based
on your biological makeup, for selfish pursuits at the expense
(07:48):
of other people, what they're saying is that is a
toxic use of masculinity. But I don't use that term
because it's become conflated and it became a tool to
portray all men as bad and immoral and wrong. And
I say that because at least here in the We
have an association called the American Psychological Association that in
(08:13):
several years ago, I don't know the year right offhand,
but several years ago came out with a study and
I'm using quotations deliberately because it was very loosely based,
that said that the characteristics that we would generally consider
an attribute to men, and they named four dominance, stoicism, aggression,
and competitiveness, are inherently destructive and dangerous to our young men.
(08:36):
I don't agree with that premise at all. Dominance, aggression, stoicism,
and competition. I'll give you an example aggression. If I'm
walking down the road and I see a young woman
and she's alone, and I decide that I'm going to
use my capacity for aggression, violence, and physical dominance to
(08:58):
assault her physically, sexually, or steal something from her, I
think all of us would agree that that is an
improper use of masculinity. Generally, we would all accept that
to be true. If, however, I'm walking down that same
street and I see another man attempting to do that
to the woman, and I step in and I neutralize
(09:19):
that threat with the same dominance, aggression, and capacity for
physical violence. I think the majority, the overwhelming majority of
people would agree that that is an appropriate use of
my masculine characteristics. So the way that I define masculinity
is not that it is either moral or a moral
good or bad. It's neither. It's a moral meaning. It's
(09:44):
not good nor bad. It just depends on how you
use it. So to answer your question, how do you
define masculinity? Very simply, it's the characteristics that we as
men possess inherently as a result of our biological makeup.
That's it. Women can possess some some of those attributes
as well, and at times they can be even better
(10:04):
at us, better at things than us in certain cases,
and people will make that all the time, you know.
For example, I might say men are stronger than women,
and inevitably I'll get this, well, well, my sister in
law is an Olympic gold medalist and she's stronger than you.
While that might be true, that's an exception that doesn't
(10:25):
disprove the rule. When I say men are stronger than women,
I'm saying, in general, the average strength of a man
and size, frankly, is going to be greater than that
of a woman. That isn't meant as an insult. It
just is the way it is. We're bigger, we're stronger,
our bone density is greater. It's just the way that
(10:45):
we're built. And that's how I view masculinity. I will
throw this caveat in because I think it's really important.
The way that we harness our masculine characteristics for what
I would call productive outcomes for other people is what
I would call manliness. So if I see somebody assaulting
a woman on the street, and I use my capacity
(11:08):
for violence to neutralize that threat, then I think all
of us would agree that person is a man. He
is acting like a man, or he is manly. Manliness
is your ability to harness your masculine characteristics for productive
and effective outcomes for yourself and for other people.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
All right, talk to me about what you do. I
had a look at your website. I was like this,
the branding's awesome. This is awesome.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
I love what you think.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
You want to know the background and this story of
you and what you developed and why.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah. So, like I said, I started this movement is
called Order of Man in twenty fifteen. I was a
financial advisor at the time, and I was doing very
well with the business, making good money, helping a lot
of clients. I found a lot of value in the
work that I did, and I started a podcast to
pick up new financial planning clients. And I realized very
(12:06):
very quickly that I love this medium of podcasting, but
I don't want to continue to have this same type
of conversation that I've had over the past nine years
up to that point. So I decided that I would
start this conversation on learning what it means to be
a man. And I never positioned myself out ahead of anybody.
(12:28):
And you said earlier your expertise. I kind of cringe
a little bit when I hear that, because although I
do know a lot about it, because I've invested so
much time and energy and resources into it, I don't
consider myself better than any other man. I might be
better in certain areas, or or at least further down
the track than other people, and other men are further
(12:48):
down the track than I am in certain areas. So
the whole mission was to band together as men, start
working together, start sharing ideas and resource and conversations, and
see how we might be able to push and motivate
and inspire each other and hold each other accountable to
(13:08):
doing better at being fathers and husbands and leaders in
our communities and owners of our businesses and every other
capacity in which we show up. So, like I said,
I started in twenty fifteen and it took off, which
was a testament to the fact that men really wanted
resources like this, they just weren't available. And you see
a lot more now ten years later, and I hope
(13:30):
to think that we're a small part of that growth
and that inspiration and men trying to band together and
work together and really try to be more virtuous. So
we do that through the podcast and events and different
things like that.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Now, what did you learn? What did you learn?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
What did you think you were going to learn or
what did you want to learn? And was it what
you ended up learning or learning?
Speaker 3 (13:56):
I mean, there's a lot that I've learned. I've gosh,
at this point, I've done fifteen I think almost sixteen
hundred podcasts at this point now, which is crazy, crazy
to think I snelling double me that well you are,
I mean eight hundred is even eight hundred? Is that
where you're at right now?
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Night seventy something?
Speaker 3 (14:17):
That's amazing?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Thank you?
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Yeah, I mean, most people will quit after ten or
twenty episodes, so the fact that you can get to
one hundred, let alone eight hundred, is incredible. Yeah. Yeah,
So we've done quite a few podcasts. I've talked with
a lot of incredible people that have taught me a lot.
I didn't really come into it with many expectations of
what I would learn. I just thought, Hey, if somebody
(14:38):
has an idea on how I might be able to
have a better conversation with one of my kids, or
if they have some insight into how I might be
able to, you know, lose twenty pounds or secure a
promotion at work, you know, little little things that don't
seem like a big deal, but to average ordinary people
like we are, that's a big deal. If you get
(14:59):
a raise in you start making two, three, four, five
thousand dollars more a year, that's a big deal. If
you lose twenty pounds this quarter or in the next
six months, that's a huge deal. If you re spark
a relationship or learn how to open up and communicate
with one of your children that you've been having a
hard time resonating with, that is a big deal. And
(15:20):
you know, I've been able to do all of those
things as far as as far as what I've learned
and maybe what I've implemented to varying degrees. It's having
a system, and I look at this as a twofold approach.
So what any person, whether they're a man or a
woman needs in their life to be successful generally is
(15:40):
frameworks and networks. That's all we need. The way that
women generally approach networking is different than the way men do,
and that's fine, but we both still need networks. Women
tend to be a lot more relational, men tend to
be a lot more directional. We talk about that if
we want, but still the network is important. And then
(16:01):
the framework is looking at other people who have done
what we want to do and mimicking them I wouldn't
say copying, but mimicking cloning, you know, trying to figure
out what it is that they did in order to
achieve the results that we wanted. And once we have
those frameworks, if we can know what they are and
break them down effectively and then implement them consistently, it's
(16:25):
only a matter of time before we start experiencing similar results.
So that's what I'm always after networks and frameworks. Everything
else is anclarty to that.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
I would love you to dive into the networking the
way that women network in the way that men networks.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
I would love to learn.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
But I having a lot of conversations with a lot
of women in business around here, and they're often coming
up with that frustration of putting so much time and
energy and effort into business and into networking just to
come up against roadblocks or bottlenecks or just burn out
before they really get results. And sure, what can we
(17:03):
learn from men and the male approach to that that
might benefit us?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Yeah, well, I'm glad you asked that, And I will
say this, women in business are a bit of an
anomaly typically. I have, you know, many friends who are
women who are not necessarily entrepreneurs or business owners or
even in the corporate world, and there's a difference generally
in the way they look at life versus a woman
(17:30):
potentially even like yourself, who is you know, has this
podcast and has this movement, and women like that tend
to be a little bit more masculine in their approach that.
I mean, that's again, that's not a slight by any means.
It's just it's more of a masculine energy that you
would see relative to a woman who decides to stay
(17:51):
at home exclusively as a homemaker and a housewife and
a mom. Again, nothing wrong with either, It just is
what it is. But when I talk about it generally,
when I say women are relational, women can sit and
look at each other and communicate towards each other. So
(18:13):
you'll see women do this when they go to out
for a girls' night or a restaurant. They're all sitting
together or they're all in a circle and they're looking
at each other, and they're facing each other, and they're
communicating directly, and they're looking at each other bouncing ideas
off of sharing stories, laughing, joking, playing, etc. Whereas men, generally,
(18:34):
we tend to bond better directionally. So even when you
see men sit together, for example, we don't generally sit
together in circles in groups and look at each other.
We line up and we face outward or inward, but
we're all facing the same direction. Yeah, and you can
look at it in sports for example, you know you
(18:54):
see an offensive lineman in football, or maybe I don't
know rugby really well, but rugby would be the equivalent
I imagine from in your part of the world.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Right, We've got AFL football down here in Melbourne, so
I don't really know rugby that will either.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Okay, yeah, so well bad analogy then, but somebody does,
I'm sure. But we're directional. We're what we're doing is
we're either working on something. So you know, I think
of the Amish that are raising barns together and they're
not sitting talking and conversing. They're directing and they're moving
and they're building, or there's an enemy. So you can
(19:32):
think of it in the context of sports like I
just said, or even military combat. We create ranks, we
create rows, and we line up shoulder to shoulder, and
we face the enemy and we deal with the enemy
the way that we need to. That's the difference. So
if you're asking me what can a woman do to
have a better connection in a masculine, male driven environment,
(19:55):
which is typically going to be the case in corporate arenas,
we don't need the relationship talk. We need some we
need a challenge, we need a common enemy, or we
need a common objective and so let's not sit around
and converse and talk and like get to know each other.
I'll get to know you through the project that we're
(20:15):
working on. That's how men relate to each other. And
I think if women understood that, there would probably be
less of this drive for men to behave like women.
And it's funny you see these memes like men will
do anything except for go to therapy, and it's like, well, yeah,
like we will go lift, we will go build a
(20:38):
rebuild an engine, we will go build a cabinet, we
will go cut down trees. As if to say that
those things don't have any therapeutic relevancy. That of course
they do. But just because a woman might not find
the same sort of therapeutic benefit, isn't to say that
(20:58):
men can't find therapy in lifting heavyweights or mowing the
lawn or rebuilding an engine. It's just different.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
I love that I'm thinking about some of my friends'
specific areas of business and that kind of polarizing position
they're in where where they're breaking into, especially around things
like sports. They're breaking into areas where they're building businesses
around sport, and the females in that sport a lot. Yeah,
I'll not the females specifically, but female aspect of that
(21:31):
sport is a lot younger, so the funding and everything
is a lot more difficult. What advice do you have
for women like that in stating a case or trying
to get the women's sport and support and branding on
the same level as the men's.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Well, this is going to be this is going to
be a sensitive conversation, so I hope it comes across
as it's intended. But if I'm understanding you correctly, you're
wondering how a women's team can build up the same
sort of relevancy and influence as a men's sports team can.
(22:14):
Is that Is that what you're asking me?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yeah, And I guess in situations where you're leaning into
corporate alliances and sponsorships and branding and relationships in business,
just trying to find footing there and build a similar
level of support.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Yeah, I honestly, I don't know if that will I
don't know if that will ever happen. And I'll tell
you why, Okay, I know, And I'm and again, this
is where I'm trying to be. I'm trying to be
sensitive of the desire but also be realistic about what's
what's happening. So predominantly men are more interested in sports
(22:55):
than women. Would you agree with that or would you disagree?
Probably it's fine if you disagree, but I mean we
need to because even as an.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Athlete, I have no interest in watching the most sports.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Right And so if the majority of men, if the
majority of people who are watching sports and competition are men,
then it's safe to say that we are probably more
interested in watching men than we would be watching women.
Would you agree with that or is that off base?
Speaker 1 (23:25):
I think I would agree with that.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
And so that's the reality. It's just a matter of
how many people are interested relative to how many people
are engaged in it. So the reality is is that
women's sports has a significantly smaller base from which to
draw support. And people might say, well, that's unfair and
(23:49):
women should make as much as men make. Doesn't have
anything to do with it. It's just a measurement of value.
And I think a lot of the times people get
some things mixed up with what value means. If, for example,
I want to be valuable to you in this conversation,
I actually am not the one who gets to determine
(24:11):
what is valuable. You do. You're the one that invited me,
and you get to decide whether or not I'm adding
value to you in your audience or not. And conversely,
when you're trying to put together this podcast and program
that you have, you don't get to decide what's valuable
to your audience. They have the vote, and they vote
with their time, attention, energy, and money. So it's not
(24:36):
really a measurement of well, women should get paid as
much as men because they're playing and these guys are playing. No,
it's not that. It's just a measurement of perceived value. Now,
if you're doing identical work, So if I have, for example,
an emergency room doctor who's a male and I have
another emergency room doctor who's a female, assuming they're doing
(25:00):
the same work, same amount hours, same amount of schooling,
same amount of capability, I would suggest that those two
are to get paid the same. Of course, that only
makes sense to me, and I think most people would
agree with that. But when it comes to offering a service,
and sports entertainment is a service, it's really just a
measurement of perceived value. And I think you're going to
(25:22):
have to figure out a way in women's sports how
to offer more value to either your current potential demographic
or expand that demographic to other people who may not
have heard of it before or may not have seen
it before.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
I also think that that over time and development of
sports where women are entering predominantly male sports now, I
think that that is also going to change with skill development.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Like to watch absolutely yeah, yeah, I mean look at
one example that I've seen, this is ten years ago
to see a woman.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
You're in martial arts? Are you box boxing? Okay? So
if you look at UFC, which I'm sure you're familiar with, yep,
it's if you look at ten fifteen years ago. And
I was gonna say this with as much respect as
I can, I was not interested in watching two women
fight ten to fifteen years ago in the UFC because
(26:29):
of the skill The skill was so subpar relative to
what I could watch men do that it just wasn't
of interest to me. But you look at it now,
ten fifteen years later, these women are absolutely incredible, and
the level to which they have developed a skill set
only makes the sport for women more relevant. But that's
(26:51):
what I was saying. It's now more valuable for other
demographics to watch it, whereas ten years ago. Yeah, frankly,
just not interested.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah, I'm sure it was really interesting.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
I did my first fight into that in twelve and
it was via a twelve week boxing challenge, So I
was complete nothing before that, never never thrown a you know,
never thrown a punch at the face before we did
a twelve week challenge and I fell in love with it.
I'd ended up doing three of those, and the session
round I remember trying to extend it.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
In order to take part.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
You then commit to selling twenty tickets to cover the
cost of your training, so you sell twenty tickets. And
for the girls, there was mostly mostly blokes, but normally
two or three fights with girls, so four to six
girls involved in every show. And it was so common
that people did not want to see their girlfriends, their
(27:42):
female friends getting They're like, I don't I don't want
to watch, you know, I don't want to watch women fight.
But what was really interesting was the amount of times
that the feedback was the women's fights. Because everyone in
that particular challenge is a novice, complete novel.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Everyone's on the same there's no skill there at all.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Yeah, yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
The technical mindsets of the females that were coming in
really showed difference and so many people commented on how
much more they preferred a lot of the female fights.
It was really interesting to me back then. I was like, wow, like,
no one wants to watch his fight, and then next minute, Oh,
all the girls fights are really great.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
It is, it is, It's very interesting, and I think
specifically in the world of martial arts, people who are
not familiar with it all will just assume that it's
just this brutal, savage, violent sport, and it is in
a lot of ways. But there's an art, and there's
(28:49):
a science, and there's discipline, and there's commitment, and there's dedication,
and there's sacrifice, and there's honor and respect towards your competitor.
It's so much deeper than that that when people begin
to see what's under the surface, they can find a
new level of respect, not just for mixed martial arts
or boxing or wrestling or jiu jitsu, but for all
(29:10):
sorts of sports that have such a deeper I played
sports in high school, nothing more than that, but it
was those things were foundational, pivotal moment. There's lessons that
I can vividly remember my coach as an eighteen year
old kid telling me that I still say as a
forty three year old man, because of the lessons he
instilled in us, it's sports are amazing for not just
(29:34):
the sport itself, but just character development in general.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Yeah. Yeah, what's it like? I'm thinking about a parenthood
for men. When you talked about that before, it was
really interesting just in my mind thinking about what goes
through a man's mind when he becomes a parent for
the first time, and where does he get an understanding
of what it means to be What does that do
to your identity?
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Yeah? I think, I think so. There's a lot of
moments where I think a man becomes a man, or
at least moves in that direction, and they're pivotal moments
in his life. I would say if there's some element
of sports is definitely a place that a boy can
turn into a man. A military service is another place,
and there's some key factors. We can get into it
(30:20):
if we want, but there's some key factors that make
that so. Getting married is another time. Having kids is
certainly a time where a boy can become a man,
and the reason is is because he now has responsibility
above and beyond himself. I often tell people the difference
between a boy and a man is that a boy
(30:41):
consumes more than he produces, and a man produces more
than he consumes. We're all consumers. It's just a matter
of whether or not you're an asset or a liability.
So is your production greater than your consumption? If it is,
then you're acting like a man, because now not only
are you serving yourself and your own needs, you've made
(31:03):
yourself capable physically, mentally, financially of providing for and caring
for other people. And that's what hit fatherhood did for me.
Is now I think where a woman might believe, Okay,
I have this little child to take care of, and
I need to learnture and love and care for. For
a man, it's like, this kid is my responsibility. I
(31:23):
have to put food on the table. I have to
make sure this child is safe and protected and has
a home. I guess women probably feel the same way,
but I think generally the role might be slightly different.
Generally speaking, it's not the same for every dynamic. But yeah,
I mean, it certainly gave me an element of responsibility
above and beyond myself and realized that it's no longer
(31:47):
about me, it's about us and them than it is me.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Yeah, was that a big Like what were your expectations
about becoming a dad and how different was the experience.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Well, I didn't really have a father growing up, had
I hadn't. My dad was primarily out of the picture
by the time I was three or four years old,
you know. I saw him once a year or twice
a year, something like that. And I had a couple
of stepfathers comingto my life who were there and there
were glimpses of moments that I thought were appropriate between
father and son. But for the most part, I didn't
(32:22):
really have a great example of what it meant to
be a man and a father. So I actually floundered
a lot, you know, and I still do. I still
don't have it figured out. You know. My oldest is sixteen,
my youngest is eight, and I'm still floundering around most
of the time trying to figure out how to do
this thing we call fatherhood. But I don't know that
I had a lot of expectations. I just couldn't believe
(32:42):
how much attention was required. You know. It was amazing
to me to think about how much of your life
is no longer yours. It really isn't. It's now theirs,
and they permeate every space in the house and dominate
every conversation, whether they can speak or not. And so
(33:03):
I know that sounds a negative. It's not. It's beautiful.
It's just a lot of work, especially as a new father,
and I'm sure a new mother feels very much the
same way. It is daunting and overwhelming, especially when you've
never done it. You know, women have maybe a great
example and their mother of what it meant to be
a mom, or maybe a horrible example of what it
meant to be a mom, and dads have the same
(33:24):
in their dads and moms as well. And you could
have had the best parent in the world and still
you were going to feel completely inadequate. So for me,
I think if I were to do it all over again,
I would say to myself, you know, let go of
the expectations, take it in stride a little bit when
(33:44):
things happen, afford yourself some grace, try to be patient.
Patience is a big one. I wish I would have
learned a lot earlier. Patience and grace. I think, more
than anything, it's not necessarily my style, especially when I
was younger, but God has a way of teaching us
the things that we need to learn.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Without your own role model in your life as a father,
where did you did you seek out some sort of
a mental or an idea of where to get that
male role model?
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Yeah, well I started. I started Order a Man for
a lot of those reasons, like I needed help myself.
So in a lot of ways, what I did with
my business in this movement was for my own selfish desires.
I didn't know how to do it. And I started
this movement when I was thirty three years old, so
that would have been eight or nine years after my
(34:47):
first child. And I was still floundering eight nine years
into it trying to figure it out. And then the
minute you think you have it figured out, they get
a little older and hormones start raging and that changes
and then you think, okay, well I got that figured out.
And then you have an one come into your life
and like, hey, I got that figured out, and then
all of a sudden, it's like, well, now you have
a daughter. It's like okay, and then that's different, and
then all of their personalities are different. Then my youngest
(35:09):
came and he's the wild one and I love him
to death, but it's like put turned everything upside down.
It's like you never have a foothold. So I learned
a lot and through my sports years. I talked about
one of my coaches when I was in high school
who I'm still really good friends with and we talk
periodically even well, what is it now, almost thirty twenty
(35:31):
five years later now and we still are talking and
having conversations. Military was a big one. I joined the
military when I was young, and so I spent some
time in the military, including a combat tour in Iraq.
So I learned a lot from men there, and I
have good men in my corner now. But I've been
very deliberate and intentional about seeking out the best friends
(35:52):
and the best counsel I could find.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
So interesting, like I love the background and how your
way you are now and the brands that you have
developed came from like it feels so in a way.
There's so many similarities between how I started in podcasting,
as it was like I just all right, HiT's just
hit the fan in middle of COVID, I'm on to
(36:15):
do something, Well, what interests me?
Speaker 1 (36:17):
What do I want to learn?
Speaker 2 (36:18):
And then a suddenly I looked over my shoulder and
people were following that, and it's like, oh, and it
taught me so much because I remember thinking a few
months and I was like, if I had a planned
to build some successful brand and business, there's no way
I would have built this following because I would have
been looking at it and trying to manipulate it.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
But so I love that. I love that about your interesting.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
I never expected to kind of hear your background coming
from you know, this bloke in finance in the finance world,
and then ending up where you are now, Like, I
love that so much.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
I think it's a good lesson. You know, it sounds
like you're doing it very much the same way. I
think anybody who's trying to start something would be in
their interest to at least explore what solutions they need
in their life. I think you can be a lot
more genuine and honest about your own struggles, your own challenges.
(37:17):
I think you'll definitely be able to relate to the
people you want to serve significantly more. That's why a
lot of times, sometimes well a lot of times, people
will say, well, Ryan, the advice that you give applies
to women too. And I would actually agree. You know,
ninety percent of the things that we talk about are
applicable to men and women. And so they ask me,
why is it that you only speak to men on
(37:39):
your podcast? Your movements called Order of Men, you only
address men. I don't mind if women listen. We have
plenty of women listeners and followers. And you found our
movement through somehow like I love it. It's great. But
I know who we speak to and the way that
I can communicate a message that might apply broadly to
both men and women. I can do better because I
(38:01):
know how to communicate and deliver it to a man.
Because I'm a man, I don't know how to resonate
the same message to a woman as effectively as I
can a man, because I don't know what it's like
to be a woman, and I don't know what she
would resonate with. So for me, and I think for
you too, just be yourself, solve your own problems, find
solutions to your own problems, and then as you figure
(38:22):
them out, share them with people, and the people who
are like you, who have the same types of problems
will find and be attracted to what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Yeah, when I was like just looking over your stuff.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
It was I don't know, something comes out of it
like that because I was looking, Okay, I'm well aware
that this is order of man, this is for blokes,
but there was something really genuine about the energy of
it where I was like, well, I would like to
look what this thirty day plan is. I feel like
it would resonate with me. I'm like, and it's just
because of I guess, the authenticity that you have behind
(38:54):
it and the way that it speaks for itself.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
Well, and I think a lot of times people you
use words like that, like authenticity and vulnerable. There's a
handful of words that people use, and they've used them
so much that it just becomes a manipulation tactic, like
I want to be authentic, I want to be vulnerable.
It's like, well, hold on, what do you think that means. Well,
it means sharing a message my audience wants to hear.
Now that's not what it means. What it means is
(39:21):
share the message that you want to hear. Yeah, share
the message that you want to share, Share the struggles
that you currently have, share the ways that you overcame those.
And it's not to be self absorbed. It's so that
you can share things in a way that lands because
you're being honest about it. If you're trying to manipulate
and trick and deceive, it's just not going to be
(39:42):
as successful as if you say, hey, here's where I am. Flaws,
things I do well, things I don't do well, things
I've done well in my life, things where I've really
faltered and failed, and take it or leave it. But
I'm on this path and I'm on this mission. I
think people resonate with that much more deeply because we're tired.
We're tired of being tricked and deceived and manipulated by
(40:05):
people online that don't live a life in accordance with
what they're sharing or they're teaching. And I've been guilty
of that personally. But it goes better when I'm being
who I really am.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Yeah, And you do have to You have to watch
for it, don't you, because it can so easy. Like
I think, I coach a lot of people, and far
out I've needed a lot of coaching over my life.
Don't worry like, but I think at times when I realized,
hang on, do I do things because I want to
do them? Or do I do things because some unconscious
conditioning and as a reaction to the feedback that I
(40:44):
get outside of me when I do it, or the
perception of oh, you're good at this, so you should
do it, and that feels good too, And then you
start doing something and go, this isn't really my jam.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
I don't think it's as.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Easy is just going yeah, I'm being authentic all of
the time, unless you take the time to step out
of your world in your life and go, am I
still on track?
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Right? Well? And I also think it's a fine line
because authenticity doesn't mean that you shouldn't consider putting your
best foot forward, right, So I spend I mean I've
spent hundreds of thousands of dollars over the past ten
years with like learning technology and buying the right microphone
(41:27):
and getting the camera and getting the lighting that you
see here just right, investing thank you, yeah, and investing
in tools and resources and coaching like you mentioned. I've
invested all of that money. But I don't think that
just because you attempt to put your best foot forward,
you're being disingenuous. The analogy I might use is when
(41:50):
you know, I don't wear a suit on a daily basis.
But if I go to church, I'm going to put
a suit on. Am I being disingenuous? I don't think so.
I think I'm honoring God and I'm honoring and respecting
the other people who are there. Yeah, So it doesn't
make me disingenuous to put my best foot forward. It's
if I'm using it to manipulate or trick. And in
(42:12):
this case, when I buy a new camera so I
can improve the audio or the video quality of our podcast,
it's not to trick and deceive. It's to put my
best foot forward because I honor and respect the people
who would listen to the message we're trying to share.
It's the motive that, really, I think is the greatest driver.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Always always referring back to intention, you know, it's like, yes,
right to fuck things up, but what's your intention? Like
it's all right if you hurt someone's feelings, but what's
your intention? So, if we're going to have a difficult
conversation with potential conflict, what is your intention? If your
intention is good, you're not trying to hurt, but you're
(42:52):
just being honest, Well, then you can't beat yourself up
over four outcomes.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
Yeah, and you still can, I think a little bit,
because even though you're well intentioned, you know, let's say
I had to have a conversation with one of my
children about something they were doing. My intention is to
teach them lessons that will serve them into adulthood. But
even if my intention is pure, which I think for
(43:20):
the most part it is, I can still do a
horrible job delivering it. You know, I could be completely impatient,
and I could be rude, and I could be brash,
and I could be insensitive in sharing those things. So
I don't think intention alone is enough. I think intention
is crucial, But then we also have to consider am
(43:41):
I going to accomplish the task at hand. So my
intention in this case is to teach my children lessons
they can take into adulthood. But if I'm a jerk
about it, they're not going to learn a lesson. They're
just going to be bitter and hostile towards me, and
it's going to fracture the relationship to some degree. But
if I do it properly, then not only am I
teaching the lesson, but it's being received in a way
(44:05):
where they'll actually be able to apply it now and
well into the future.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
Yeah, How do you how do you navigate that relationship
between having a relationship with your children and also being
the parent.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Well, I I don't really know that they're they're different.
My I should say it this way. My relationship with
my children is I'm the dad and they're the my children.
Like I'm not. We're not buddies, we're not friends. Like
we're friendly. There's friendly elements. We have good times, and
(44:46):
we laugh and play and joke and tease, and we
do all those things that friends would do. But I
would never in a million years take myself off the
mantle of father to a lower tier of friend.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
So I think being a father is significantly more important
than friends. Is that what you're asking though, because I
think it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No. Our relationship is
I'm your dad and your my son or my daughter,
and that's how we engage. And that when I say
that it could sound harsh like I'm the dad. It's
(45:19):
not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying I am
in the position, and I believe that authority comes directly
through God, that I'm in the position to be responsible
for you. I am your shepherd. He has entrusted me
with raising you, and that's my job. And I don't
always get it right. In fact, I would say the
(45:39):
majority of the time I get it wrong, but I'm
trying to figure it out. But it's from the lens
of father, never friend, never buddy, I'm your dad.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Yeah, yeah, I guess.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
I feel like over so many years, the landscape has
changed in terms of the world. Children grow up in
what they have access to, their ideas and perceptions of
the world, and you know, families that may or may
not stay together, and then you know, there's so many
variables that shift the position potentially, and I just reckon
(46:15):
could when I think about it, it would make that I
guess when you are a parent. I'm not so I
don't have no idea, zero zero experience here, but yeah,
I feel like, when I think about it, there will
be a hard balance. Like I don't even kids classes
in the gym. I'm like, give me one kid, maybe two,
(46:38):
but don't give me a class of kids because then
I can't maint like I struggle with that. I'm like, oh,
it's really hard to wrangle these kids because I'm not
used to them.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
I don't know the rules here.
Speaker 3 (46:50):
Well, it is a selfless pursuit.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
You know.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
I think about times where I might need a discipline
one of my children. I don't want to do that.
I don't think any parent really truly wants to do that.
The unfortunate thing is that we have so many cowards
as parents that won't discipline their children, not because they're
worried about their children, but because they're worried about their
own sensitive feelings and how they'll feel that they have
(47:13):
to discipline their child. Yeah, that's the problem, and that's
where the selflessness comes in. That the best thing I
can do in this situation is for me and them
to be uncomfortable for a little bit while we have
a discussion that needs to take place. Yeah, so that's
not for the feint of heart. And if you're planning
on I'm not saying you personally, but if anybody's planning
(47:36):
on being weak or passive or cowardly, parenthood probably isn't
the path for you.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Yeah, yeah, you got any What are your big plans
for the future? Do you have any big aspirations?
Speaker 3 (47:51):
I mean, I have things that I want to do
within the business. Again, I really work in those ninety
day segments, so I have directions that I want to go,
And when I think about vision for the future, I
think more about the type of person I want to
be and not so much aspirational on what I want
to do. So I think about not what kind of
(48:12):
house do I want to live in? But can I
be the kind of man who gets to choose what
kind of house he gets to live in? Or am
I constrained by my lack of financial success? Right? So
it's no longer about the house or the things or
the cars. It's about my behavior. So when I think
about myself into five and ten years, I can really
(48:34):
vision in vision even what kind of grandfather I would be,
and how I would show up and the conversations I
would have, and how I'm disciplined at work in order
to create financial prosperity and abundance for me and my
loved ones and people that were trying to serve. What
kind of leader I want to be in the organization,
what kind of visionary I want to be, how I
(48:55):
want to cast vision and share with others and bring
other people in. I like this way because it leaves
me open to opportunities I think might be closed off
if I said, well, I want to have this house
and live in this place and make this much money
and do these certain things. Again, I don't know what
I'm having for dinner tonight, so I like to leave
it open to what might come. You know, I have
(49:16):
forty three years old. I never would have imagined the things.
In fact, my girlfriend and I were talking this morning
about it, or this afternoon sometime about just changes in
technology with our cell phones. We were kind of reminiscing
on old days where you'd be at the house and
you'd have the phone on the wall and you have
the spiral cord and you have to go around the
kitchen because you're trying to talk to Like I'd be
(49:38):
trying to talk to a girl that I had a
crush on, but I didn't want my mom or my
sister to listen. But you can only go so far.
I would have never have guessed twenty years ago, maybe
a little longer, maybe maybe thirty years ago, that we'd
have these supercomputers the size of you know, a little
disc that fit in our pocket that we carry everywhere.
I would never have imagined that. And I don't I
(50:00):
know what the next twenty years is going to hold either.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
That is.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Can you imagine today being a parent and when your
child leaves the house, they tell you where they're going
to go, and then you cannot contact them until you
know there wherever they said they'll be, And if you
ring there and they're not there, you have no idea
where they are.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
Yeah, isn't that wild about it today?
Speaker 3 (50:24):
But it is. But that's what we did when we
were kids. Or I remember like on a Saturday, I'm like,
I want to go hang out with my friends, Like
we didn't call our friends. I got on my bike
and rode around the neighborhood and then I would see, oh,
there's all the bikes. They're at the park, or they're
at Billy's house. And so I would just go over
to Billy's house and knock on the door and his
mom would answer and say come on I and Billy's
(50:44):
in the back with the kids and we'd all play
for the day or whatever. It's such a weird change
in that culture, not always for the best. There's some
amazing technology that I love, and I use technology every day,
but there's some nostalgia there that I think in a
lot of ways we're missing. Intern culture went to.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
The movies the other day and person in front of
me I must have been a parent and must have
been watching tracking on one of their kids, because they
just kept looking at their phone.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
Awesome movie, it was amazing.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
They kept looking at their phone and I could see
them looking at a map with a little spot on
it that was they were watching with.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
And I was like, Okay, so you're a mum and you.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Can't watch this amazing movie because you're you're anxious and
following where your kid is right now.
Speaker 1 (51:30):
And what a shame.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
Yeah, I mean, think about the level of anxiety that
our supercomputers in our pockets create. Jumping on I do
it all the time, jumping on social media. I'm like, well,
how come I don't have as many followers as that person?
Or how come I'm not as popular as this person.
It's it's unreal. It happens. It's hard.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Oh so true, so true.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Hey, you you've been ace. You're really I really enjoy
talking to you. Can you point my listeners?
Speaker 1 (51:55):
Yeah? Thank you?
Speaker 2 (51:56):
Point my listeners to where they can find you and
follow you online and any you lucture promote that you're doing.
Speaker 3 (52:01):
Currently Yeah, I mean Order of Man dot com is
where you can find. You know, it's our home home base,
so that has all of our stuff. Order of Man podcast.
I'm very active on Instagram, mostly at Ryan Mickler, and
then as far as what we have going on, I'm
not sure when you're planning on releasing this conversation, but
in May we've got an event in Saint Louis and
(52:24):
the United States and that's at the Men'sforge dot Com.
So that's the big thing that I'm really focused on
right now.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Awesome, Well, this.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Will be happen a couple of weeks, so plenty of
time able to hear that and book in. Thanks again, Ryan,
it's been amazing.
Speaker 3 (52:39):
Thank you. I appreciate you. I appreciate the opportunity as well.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
You're welcome. Thanks everyone,
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