June 29, 2025 • 51 mins
Damn, this chat was a ripper. James is a clinical psych and researcher who’s deep in the world of compassion-focused therapy, and I reckon we could’ve kept yapping for hours. We kicked off with how he stumbled into psychology after watching Good Will Hunting (iconic but apparently fading into the abyss) and then unpacked all sorts of juicy stuff like why we suck at accepting help, how kindness and compassion aren’t the same thing, and why we’re way nicer to our mates than we are to ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
She said, it's now never I got fighting in my blood.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm tiff. This is Roll with the Punches and we're
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Lawyers know that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution.
Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in
(00:29):
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reach out to Mark and the team at www dot
test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au. James Kirby, Welcome to
(00:55):
Roll with the Punches.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Oh thanks, Teff. Great to be here, like.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
With mirror, like a bit of a mirror version of
each other when you're like, oh, there was some email
stack of time ago, and I'm like, yeah, someone, someone
I can't remember, told me you were awesome, And so
we're here chatting and we don't know how we arrived here,
but six eight twelve, I don't know how long the
December wasn't.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
It was it?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
So I was really relieved to know it was December,
because I mean, I've got not the most amazing recall.
At the best of times, I get so excited and
I just go and I don't leave a paper trail
for myself. So when it was December, I'm like, thank goodness,
I have permission to just be blatantly. Hey, don't know,
(01:41):
don't know who told me to get you on, don't
know what I thought we'd talk about, but here we are.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I'm so sorry. Isn't that terrible? But thank you so
much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
No, it's great. I feel I'm going to get along
like a house on fire. And especially when I did
do a bit of a refresher, who's this? You're into
some cool stuff that I love talking about. So do
you want to tell the world what you're into?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Yeah? Sure, so yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
I'm based at the University of Queensland in the School
of Psychology. I'm a clinical psychologist. A lot of my
work is focused on research and compassion, particularly compassion focused
therapy to help individuals with high levels of self criticism
and shame and things like that. But I also have
a look at how compassion kind of develops with children
(02:31):
and also like sort of organizationally what levers we might
be able to pull to try to increase the likelihood
someone might act compassionately, But also what factors might you know,
sort of stop or block compassion. So those sorts of
different lab studies, which are always fun.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yeah, I bet you've got a really small tagged audience.
Like everybody.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
It's like what you were sort of mentioning earlier. It's
if you kind of hear I hear something, I'm going,
oh my goodness, that's interesting. Oh yes, oh yeah, no,
that sounds great too, And then all of a sudden
you're kind of doing so many different things at the
same time because it's just all I just find it
also fascinating.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, tell me where it started for you, Like when
did you get into psychology? Was it psychology and then
finding the past to compassion or like what was what
did that look like?
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:24):
My kind of first kind of opening up into this
world of psychology was through the movie Goodwill Hunting. Don't
know if I mean it feels like to me everyone
should know that film. But I was telling students this
the other day. Is I so hears seeing Goodwill Hunting
and no one had seen it, And I'm like what,
But it's about thirty years old now, so that that
(03:46):
kind of tracks, but disappointingly so from my perspective because
it just.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Let me feel old.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
But I watched that movie and just thought it was unbelievable,
just loved Robin Williams and so on. And I was
a high school student at the time, was just like, oh,
my goodness, is this something that one can do with
one's career.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
And then at university.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Took some psychology courses of course and finding out all
these wonderful and bizarre things that the brain does, which
again I had no idea about, and I found all
of that just so interesting in terms of what our
brains can do that can make things difficult for us,
but also the shortcuts it does to make it a
bit easier, but then also how social factors can have
(04:27):
a big influence on our decision making. All this stuff
just was fascinating. But I always knew deep down I
wanted to get.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
Into working one on one and with people in clinical psychology.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
It was there anything about learning psychology that that completely
balsted you where you were like, what, like that wasn't
what you expected?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
The whole yeah, yeah, the whole thing. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
I suppose one of the first was in one lecture.
In one Yeah one lecture, the student the essa John
McLain was talking about an effect called the Stroop effect,
which I'd never heard about before.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
And the Stroop effect is.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Where you would have the word written and just say
if it was cook, you know, and it would be
written in red font, and then say the next word
might underneath, it might be a book and it would
be in blue font, and it would just keep going
like a different words, random words, but with different colored font,
and you would be asked to read as quickly as
you can the color of the font.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
But our brain doesn't want to do that. It kind
of wants to read the word.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
We were so like reading so automated would stuff it up,
and then to make it a layer of difficulty, they
would have the words then written, not just random words
cook and book and stuff. They would actually have the
word red the word yellow. So that makes it even
more confusing because.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
Now you're having to read yellow, but in the font
it would be in which would be blue, say, and
that would just be very.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Tricky to do. So you'd have to always having to
read the color, but you read it again yellow, but
it's blue. So when we did that as a whole group,
I was like, Oh my goodness. I didn't realize how
difficult that would be. And then there was this other
kind of eye open I just with remembering numbers. So
we would be told a sequence of numbers like six four, eight, one, nine, seven, eight,
(06:20):
and you had it go up to about ten, and
then you'd have to re recall how many of those
numbers you could remember, And if you had no strategy,
you could probably do about six to seven. But if
you chunked the numbers into groups of four, for example,
you could remember a lot more of those numbers. So
just some little hacks like that really fascinated me and
(06:42):
blew my mind open, and.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
It's like, oh goodness, what else is there? And this
is just the first lecture.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, I was going to say that. I imagine that
was really early on. And what I love about that
is it's actually quite your mind goes, or mind does.
I'm very inquisitive and curious. My mind goes so deep
into the meaning and where that can be applied in
our own lives. And that's like the first thing you learn.
Like we over complicate so much, but to me just
(07:10):
hearing that, it's like, oh, we have so much to
sit down and think about.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
I mean things on the surface seeing very simple, very straightforward,
getting through things quite easily. But your mind is doing
all of these complicated shortcuts and things for you to
kind of navigate through life very easily. I remember, which
I never spent any time contemplating. And then when you do,
you kind of go, oh, my goodness, I wonder how
(07:36):
many times I've made little errors or mistakes And it's
not because of anything wrong with me, it's just this
is how it plays out in the mind. So that
was very freeing in some ways. I remember one professor
Thomas Suttendorf, in a cognitive psychology like you talk about,
just asked the question how many door handles are there
in your home where you're living? Well, like, I think,
(07:58):
got no idea, He goes, no, no, Just close your
eyes and slowly go through as if you're walking through
your house. And if you slow that break close your
eyes and pretend you're opening the front door. You can
almost with a very good level of accuracy, get the
exact number of door handles there are because you kind
of okay, walk through the front door, and then to
my right there's another room, and then you can count
it all up. But if you just had to give
(08:19):
a straight answer, yes, no idea, but the way the
mind works again, it's just a little slow. But guiding
yourself through that, you can then give a very close
to correct answer.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
When people, So, I guess, think about the people that
you went to those first through the first level of
studies with by the time you come out the end
of that, and you've all learned the same thing. How
different at the beginning before you've dealt probably gone into
different areas and dealt with different people and made lots
(08:52):
of new learnings. How different do you think first level
psychologists are when they first get out and they've all
learn the same thing.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
As in like they've all worked walked out with the same.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Same of the same teachings. This is what you learned,
this is now what you know. Go and start working
with humans.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Yeah, yeah, and working So, I guess psychology is so diverse.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
So after you finish your your fourth year of study,
so usually that would be three year undergrad and a
fourth year honors, psychology can work. You can work in
many different areas, so you can kind of work a lot.
A lot of people finish their fourth year, they might
work as an analyst for you know, the strange tax
office or mains transport or something like that. Because one
thing psychologists are trained very well in is measurement and
(09:41):
methodology and trying to interpret hang on, can we actually
conclude that based on the data that we collected? And
we also get trained a lot in analysis statistical analysis.
Now that's not what I anticipated when I started psychology,
but about half our courses are stats and research methods,
so you to get trained very strongly on that, and
(10:02):
that can be a bit of an eye opener for
many people. And then it's not until after that you
then will enroll in a master's degree, which would then
be another two years of say Masters of Clinical Psychology.
But there's also a host of other different programs all pside,
and someone's brought to exercise where in that postgraduate study
you can then sort of work one on one with people. Now,
(10:24):
when it gets to that master's level and you're doing
that two years, we're kind of constantly assessed on our competencies,
so like, can you display these kinds of skill sets?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
And so yes, there is.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
A lot of kind of by that point, because you're
so watched and monitored and assessed that you're meeting the
basic competency. There is a lot of yeah, we're all
going out with it with a similar set of skills,
well very close to similar set of skills as you
kind of hope, because we're registered by you know, Australian
health regulatory bodies. But when you've been in it's so diverse.
(10:57):
It's so diverse what people have walked away with as
the key learnings. You know.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
I have some friends who.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Work in expert testimonies for like eyewitness identification, and other
people kind of work in marketing for you know, how
to get people interested in clicking on your kind of brand,
and then other people who are working, you know, with
(11:23):
air traffic control trying to work out best safety procedures
and stuff like that. So you can just apply it
in so many diverse ways, which I think is one
of the one of the strengths of a psychology agree.
But also for some that's a bit scary, you know,
because it's not kind of clear this is exactly what
I'm going to do.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
With my degree.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
In fact, it can be used in so many different ways. Actually,
where do I want to take it.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I don't know for someone who's had almost a thousand
conversations that heavily lean into human psychology and talking to psychologists,
and I've just learned something for the first time. I
never realized the breadth of what avenue that can take
you down. That was unexpected.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Yeah, well, no, I think for most when they get
into it, go into thinking I'll end up working, you know,
essentially as a clinical psychologist like Fraser Crane or something
like that off the television, or Freud or something like
that that springs to mind. But really, you know, psychologists
are interested in a lot of ways human behavior and
(12:29):
just trying to work out what kind of drives it
and how can we use that, and of course, then
as you mentioned earlier, that can just be applied in
so many different ways.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
So what angle did you take? Where did you run
off to when you school doors?
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Yes, I got into clinical psychology because of goodwill hunting,
and then after I finished my masters, I did what
they call it a combined master's.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
PhD, which I call a clinical p HD.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
So post masters, I was working in private practice for
a while, working in a couple of different hospitals as well,
I still do private practice, but now I also have
an academic job at the university where I researched, that
was the PhD. So I wasn't sure if I wanted
to work straight as a researcher or as a clinician.
So doing both allowed that flexibility and I leaned in
(13:24):
the early days more on practicing, and now I have
moved more into the research.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
And did you know what you wanted? Was it the
area of research that took you to researching or was
it I want to research? What the hell am I
going to? Well? What is here and what am I
interested in? And what can I find?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (13:43):
Exactly, I don't know. Really, I think a bit of both.
Like I knew for my PhD, I wanted to do
something that would have use, like it would be applied.
And a guy at the University of Queensland called Professor
Matt sand has developed this program called the Triple P
Positive pair In Program and this was a program that
he developed like.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
In the I want to say, early nineties.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
It's been around for a long time now, but it
was to help parents, you know, with the raising of
the children, with raising of their children, particularly in the
early days for children who were the parents were really
struggling with with some kind of emotion or behavioral kind
of difficulty. So I thought, oh, I wouldn't mind doing
something in that space. It kind of feels like I
could learn something really valuable maybe that I could use
(14:26):
eventually because I'd hope to become a parent.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
But also secondly, you know a lot of programs that developed.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
By Triple P are then rolled out and people are
trained in and it can have direct impact for clients.
So I was really interested in that and developed a
version of the program for grandparents and that was kind
of specifically for grandparents who were doing a lot of
childcare of the grandkids. So you know, at least twelve
(14:55):
to thirteen hours a week and a lot of instances.
All of that works very.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Well that arrangement.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
But I was interested in those situations where there was
a bit of tension and conflict between parent and grandparents
about how things were done and trying to help help
those families, and so I got into so I developed
a program called Grandparent Triple P, which is part of
the Triple P suite of programs, and got to run
groups with grandparents trying to help them manage that and
(15:22):
so really enjoyed that, loved that, and got trained in
a bunch of other Triple PA programs, and that was
kind of my introduction to a lot of clinical work.
But then since then i've kind of you know, you
continue with your curiosity, you continued professional development which were
required to do, and stumbled into compassion focused therapy, which
(15:42):
has kind of been my focus now for the last
fifteen years.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Probably, yeah, awesome, all right, I love that I have done.
I've talked about compassion before, but I know I sought
you out of this conversation because I think I'm interested
in the science of compassion. I'm interested in this stuff
that we just don't think about when it comes to compassion.
So I want to know fifteen years worth of knowledge
(16:07):
in the next forty five minutes. If that's good, easy.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Easy, easy, and that borous, we won't need forty five.
Speaker 6 (16:17):
No.
Speaker 4 (16:18):
I mean, when you start out, you know you've got
that beginner's mind.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
You know you're just exploring.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
And I think your question I was like, I was
really wanting to do something apply that could be of use,
that people could could take away with and their life
might be slightly easier or better, and that got me
into the triple P stuff. But equally, as you're doing research,
it's so it's just fun. It's starting to think about, Okay, well,
what are we trying to do, what are we hoping
(16:45):
to do, what have others done? What things can we
do to make this happen? And that's just a lot
of brainstorming and conversations amongst your colleagues, trying to improve
the nature of the work you're doing to answer some
kind of fundamental question. And then you get to test
it to see if it comes out the way you
hypothesized or not. And I just find that itself just
(17:08):
such a I guess, a privileged position to have to
be able to all your life just go, okay, let's
test this out.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Let's test this out.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
And then you've got these really smart PhD students who
want to do this stuff as well, and other colleagues,
and all of a sudden your idea gets transformed into
something even better than what you originally thought it could be.
And then you see what findings you get. And then
if you don't get what you anticipate, that's really interesting
because you're like, oh goodness, okay, there's something going on here.
Maybe it's our design, or maybe it's the program, whatever
(17:35):
it might be. So you get to have a lot
of fun. So that's just very rewarding that process in
and of itself. But yes, I got into compassion, and
so because I had done a lot of work in parenting,
I initially tried to bring a compassion focus into the
parenting work I was doing. And so I'd read read
a lot of Paul Gilbert Nef and others who had
(17:59):
done a lot to work in this space.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
It was kind of guided by that.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
But what becomes very quick is you kind of think
you've got a sense of what it is, and then
the more you read about, the more you do it,
the more experiment about it, it's like, oh, goodness is
complicated and messy, and there are all these ifs, butts,
and ors related to it. So on the surface, it
seems simple, like the definition I use is compassions to
(18:24):
sensitivity to suffering, either in yourself or in others, and others.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Could be any sentient creature. And that's the first part.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
And then the second part is then trying to do
something to alleviate or prevent it, which is kind of
the second part. And on the surface, again, that seems
pretty straightforward, kind of helpful, pro social behavior. But then
the way this kind of operates will depend on so
many different factors. I think one of the easiest ones
to use as an example is that kind of compassionate
(18:55):
tendency we have works very well for the people we like,
but as soon as we change that target from someone
we like to someone we dislike, our willingness to do
compassionate behavior drops massively. So I just like doing those
sorts of things, trying to work out, Okay, what things
can we shift which will influence likelihood of seeing compassionate
(19:15):
behavior or not.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I just returned to which I hadn't been for quite
a while. Just up the road for me. There's a
weekly meditation class from a Buddhist center in the city.
And obviously the word compassion is filtered throughout almost doesn't
matter where you go to talk about that word is
just repeated all of the time. But I love the
(19:37):
mind rabbit holes that those simple yet super complex teachings
that they do right before throwing you into a little
meditation is. Yeah, it's what do people think compassion is?
That it's not? Are there things that people call compassion
or think a compassion that aren't.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
That aren't compassion? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (20:01):
Absolutely, I mean absolutely. I mean a lot of the time,
there's a lot of overlap, like a lot of ven
diagram overlap between a lot of these concepts. But you know,
in every day vernacular, you know, layperson language, we do
use certain terms interchangeably, but they are slightly different. So,
I mean, one clear one is compassion and kindness. So
(20:22):
people will use those two words is if they're the
same thing, and they're very similar. But kindness is more
anchored in trying to create happiness or an improved sense
of well being in the other but is towards you
flourishing and being happy, and that's really important, you know.
So things that will be like a kindness act would
(20:43):
be like a gesture or a favor for you, may
buying you something that I know will make you happy,
whereas compassion is anchored and suffering. So you know, I'd
be like, Okay, what's you know, Tiff.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Is really sad? What can I do to help with
her sadness?
Speaker 4 (20:59):
So trying to zero in on the sadness and try
to do something related to that. So with kindness, you
don't have to have suffering involved for me to be
kind to you, whereas with compassion, we're doing something to
address whatever the suffering is. Now, they could still be
the same act, but it's just in one instance, the
act is trying to reduce your suffering because it's addressing
(21:21):
this particular emotion or painful difficulty, whereas in the other instance, no,
the act is you know, could just say being spending
giving up my time to really listen to you, but
that active listening could be for you to share a
real positive experience and award you just want, or some
kind of really cool experience you've had. Me listening to
that is kind of like me showing kindness towards you
(21:41):
and wanting to show that I'm interested in you, and
you get that opportunity to share that fun. Whereas that
active listening and being tuned in in time towards someone's
suffering talk about sad and the same act, but here
I'm trying to connect into that person's suffering and help
them not feel alone with that, and I'm trying to
reduce that suffering. It's not to make them happy, but
(22:02):
it's trying to respect and connect with the pain that
they're in.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
I'm guessing it takes quite a high level of self
awareness really then for someone to identify if an act
that they are doing is coming from truly from a
place of kindness versus compassion.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Yeah, I mean, sometimes it's best not to try to
overcomplicate it.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
That's not sometimes than of over complicating everything games.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
Yeah, I mean some you know, so sometimes you know,
I've got a book out called Choose Compassion and that
I sort of talk a little bit about how kind
acts can be the gateways into more compassionate moments.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
So you know, if just say, tif you lost your cash.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
Or something like that, or you've lost something really important
to you, rather than connecting to the grief immediately and
kind of you know, tell me what you're thinking about,
telling me what's going on to I might.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Bake you a lasagna, thing like that.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Let's not just get to michaels A Garfield, but I
might bring you up, bring others like cook a meal
to make your life a little bit easier, maybe make
you just you remember that you know you loved and
stuff like that. So I'm not going into addressing the
core of the suffering, but I'm trying to kind of
do something of a kindness to know that you know
(23:21):
you're connected. We want the best for you, and dropping
that off and talking to you for a little bit
might then open up to you wanting to connect. It
might not, but it might lead you to want to go, yeah,
it's been it's been really tough, and then all of
a sudden you get moving more into a compassionate kind
of orientation. What we've done in research, for example, is
(23:43):
if you change the target towards someone you like versus
someone you dislike, if you had to do kind acts
for them. That's where we see a lot of difference
between kindness and compassion playing out in everyday life. So
if it's a person you like, you will do and
compassionate things for them all of the time ten out
of ten. But if it's someone you dislike and that
(24:06):
person is suffering, you will still want to do something
compassionate for them, just not to the same degree as
if it was a like person, but more like a
five or six out of ten, not a ten out
of ten. But if it was do this kind act
for this person you dislike, it drops down to zero.
There's no way I want to do this kind act
for you, know, Samantha, because she did X, Y, and
(24:30):
Z to me and I don't like it, But if
Samantha is struggling and hurting, we still tend to go okay, yes,
despite that, I want to do something to help because
that kind of sucks. So I think that's important on
like a global scale, because a lot of memes will
hear are things like, you know, be kind to everyone
you meet because you don't know what they're going through.
(24:50):
But if that target is someone you dislike, telling them
people to be kind act as an immediate barrier towards
helpful behavior, whereas I would argue, yeah, try to be
compassionate to.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Everyone you meet because you never know what they're going through.
Speaker 4 (25:05):
Has less less of a barrier. But yeah, just little
things like that.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
What work do we need to do when we are
that person and want to move the needle? But it's hard,
Like I've been that person, and I consider that a
lot like I have. We have this relationship with Okay,
I understand that hurt people hurt people, and I understand
that everybody's got there. Nobody's behavior is because they just
(25:36):
turned up in this happy life and wanted to be
an asshole. But when something's hurt us, how do we
heal the hurt in us enough to be able to
reach that level of compassion against people that we don't
want to.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Yeah, I mean that's the million dollar questions. That's a
million dollar questions.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
The monks haven't quite got me all the way there yet.
You know, we're sitting in met we're contum planning.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
I mean, spiritual traditions have been trying to kind of
connect into this millennia. You know, how do we expend, sorry,
how do we expand our moral concern towards others who
we typically don't consider worthy or perhaps we even deem
(26:23):
you know, the causes of our suffering?
Speaker 3 (26:26):
So how do we work with that?
Speaker 4 (26:28):
And there's no clear right answer there, but one of
the ways we can and research kind of backst is,
you know, if we can anchor ourselves in compassion. So
sometimes with compassion, one of the key things is to
recognize and this is what we sometimes do in therapy
is kind of like, you know, if you've been hurt
by someone, you don't have to be their best friend,
(26:50):
like you know, the idea, the goal isn't necessarily so
let's just address that. Firstly, if you have been hurt
by someone if you're wanting to connect with them again
and try to change that relationship, that is not therefore
me and the relationship has to be one where you
see them as your best friend. You're going to spend
every moment together, We're all going to be lovey dovey. No,
not necessarily. Sometimes the first thing with compassion is recognizing, hey,
(27:12):
you hurt me, and that really hurt, but I'm not
going to hurt you back. So one of the most
important things is well, as a compassion and intention, you know,
we want to kind of reduce suffering, but even if
that doesn't seem to be possible, and we certainly don't
want to be the cause of further suffering, and so
it might be a case of, well, rather than going
tip for tat on the hurt and you hurt me,
(27:34):
so I'm going to hurt you back, until.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
We're kind of even a kind of compassion orientation.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
We'd be okay, well, I'm not going to hurt you,
and then you can start to at least start to
move into the process of forgiveness.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
But again that's really, really, really tricky.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
And again, forgiveness doesn't mean you forget, of course not,
but it's kind of again trying to look at this
from a compassion orientation. You know, not only have you
got one one eye on the target that you're invested in,
and so this is your deliberate choice. This is something
I'm literally trying to do because I want to change
the nature of this relationship. But as I'm focusing on
(28:09):
this other, there will be things that will be coming
up within me as well. So one of the most
important things in our kind of compassion focused therapy approach,
which Paul Gilbert founded, was this idea of flow of compassion.
So that's the compassion going out towards the other, but
how you had been self compassion and also how are
(28:30):
you at receiving compassion from other people? So you know,
as you're going through and addressing that, you always want
to check in with your flow. And as it's going
out towards a person that you've got in mind as
the target, you know they might not be prepared already
yet for the nature of that relationship to change, or
(28:50):
for them to even address the hurt that they may have,
cause they might not be at that point yet either.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
So it becomes very tricky. No one's fault, it's just
kind of it's just tricky.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
It's I was having to chat with somebody yesterday, a
good friend, and she's got a lot, a lot of
different things going on and you know, having a hell
of a year, and was talking about as she's starting
to come out of that, one of her beautiful friends
had had given a beautiful gift, like a really generous
(29:25):
support for something that she's got coming up, and she
just was really struggling to accept it. And I remember
just going, you stop, like park it, park yourself for
two years except that and go in two years if
I'm in a better place, Like this person wants to
give you this to help you, and you're standing in
(29:46):
the way of them having the effect of their own kindness,
Like they're giving you a gift, And imagine if you
were in the position to give that gift, how good
you would feel, And you're stopping them from feeling good.
Because why do we struggle to have self compassion and
accept compassion? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Yeah, the two most ones we have difficulty with receiving
compassion from others than self compassion. So if I was
to ask a group, and so that's what we do
in a group, We kind of go through what they'd
like to do. If you have the choice, speak passion
towards another, be self compassionate, or receive compassion.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Everyone goes, oh, you'd like to give it. That's the
way they all want to do.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
Which is really interesting because there's all these acts of
compassion going out, But who we're receiving these acts? Are
they even aware they receiving these acts or has it
been forced down their necks? So, I mean, that's funny
and not itself. I mean, there's lots of different I mean,
this is such a psychology response. I'm sorry, but there
are so many different reasons as.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
To why we can struggle.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
Some of the key ones, some of the more common
ones in terms of like receiving compassion from another is
you know typic. We talk about this role of reciprocity,
and so the idea is is kind of like, you know,
if I've received compassion or kindness from someone, if I
know them and we're in a long standing relationship, I'd
(31:10):
be more willing to accept it because I know I'll
have the chance to reciprocate and give it back.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
And so we don't like not.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
Having balanced relationships. We like things to have a feeling
of a sense of I'm there for them when they
need it, and they're there for me when they need
it or when I need it. So and so it's
the same for like to Sometimes I use the example
of myself.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
You know, I was a dad.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
With my second kiddo. I was just at the supermarket
at the shops at the conveyor belt, had little Sophia,
who's my second, in the baby pouch kind of thing,
and my younger by old the boy Fletch, who was
about three and a half at the time, and I
was trying to put the stuff in the trolley on
a conveyor belt. And as I was doing that, of
course because of west fears head was it hit the trolley.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Good dad moment exactly.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
So She's crying, and then Fletcher's crying because fears crying.
And then this guy came over to me here, let
me help you put your gear up and said, oh mate,
it's all right, I've got it, and he walked away
and he took a moment when in my other self
talk you idiot.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Why did you say no to help? And again, because
you know many different reasons.
Speaker 4 (32:29):
One is you don't want to be a burden and
stuff like that, and it's like, no, I can manage this.
Speaker 5 (32:34):
I can do it.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
But also secondly, it's a stranger, and I won't have
that chance to repay, to help repay the favor.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
So sometimes we can feel like we then carry this debt.
You know, there's this.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
Debt of help I've received, and I want to be
able to repay it, but I'm never going.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
To see you again. It's a one off.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
But thankfully I said to myself very quickly, you idiot,
you do all this research in this space, ask for help,
you desperately need it.
Speaker 5 (33:02):
So I just said, mate, actually it would be amazing
if you could help me.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
And it was great. It came back, did it little
for us, It was terrific. But that's just the very
I use that example.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
It's so benign, like it's just such a simple mundane task,
you know, putting your trolley stuff on the conveyor belt.
But even in something as simple as that, we can
have a tendency to say no. So some of those
things can be burdened not being able to repay the favor.
For example, sometimes it can be factors I'm characteristic of
the person, so we might go I don't want to
(33:33):
be helped by that kind of person because I get
the feeling that they're only helping to get off on it,
so they're not really helping to help me. They're helping
because they want to feel good about it. I'm not
going to give you that kind of sense of satisfaction.
So there can be that kind of domain or element.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
To it as well.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
So but yeah, yes, you know, lots of other embarrassing
don't think I'm deserving lots of differentferent things like that embarrassment.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
I always talk about how we are these emotional beings,
right that have emotional reactions to everything and then act
and then justify. And I was just thinking then as
you told that story, I hadn't even thought of this.
Yesterday when I was at the gym and I was
(34:23):
a bit tired, so I was on the bench press
and it was heavier than it should have been. I
was like, and one of the guys there who's always
there but we never really interacted, he was. He just
looked up and goes, oh, did you want a spot
for the next And I was before I even it
was funny because when I think of it now, I
hadn't I wasn't present yet in what he was saying,
(34:44):
I just went on, no, no, that's cool. I'm not
going to go as heavy. And then I was sitting
there going, that's not like, he's not a creepy dude,
go on hoop. It wasn't like wasn't creepy. It was like,
there's a guy that you never interact with that is
always here when you're here, and it'd be nice. It's
nice when you make friends at the gym, or at
least like if I saw someone and I wanted to
(35:06):
spot them or help them in their training, I would
love it if they accepted that. And I was just like,
I wish I did. Why did I answer so quick?
What was that quick propensity to go, oh no, no, it's fine,
I won't get in the way. I don't want to
bother you. I don't want it. I don't know what
that was.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of it is. It can be
just social discourse. You know, we've just this part of
our society. You know, it's kind of like, you know,
I don't want to you know, just kind of get
on with it, you know, just that kind of mentality
that kind of infiltrates through right from when you're a
youngster to to to an adult, a thinking, mature adult
(35:43):
who is able to receive it. But just the automaticity
of no, it's fine, I've got this, thanks mate, she's sweet.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
It can be the immediate.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
Response and that's that's fine. In some ways that can
be that can be beneficial, but at other times it
does something about you as a person. It's just you're
engaging in the everyday backwards and forwards. I mean to
give you an example of this, and this is what
we sometimes use and approach a therapy called like feedback
and form therapy. Is often when we're looking for feedback,
(36:13):
we'll say something, oh, how was that, you know, and
we'll say, oh, yeah, no, it was good, it was good.
And we sometimes use the example if you go to
a restaurant and the waiter says, how was your meal,
and we'll often just get engaged in and just like, yeah,
it was good, it was good.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Meanwhiles it was terrible, it was dry, toast, very nice.
You're just being polite. Yeah, no, good, it was good.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
It's all right, thank you. So we just say that
and then they walk away. But if the waiter had
framed it a little bit differently, like, oh, hey, we're
just playing within you menu. We haven't tried this one before.
There are a couple of little things we're trying out
for the first time. We're unsure exactly how the meals
are landing. How did you find your meal tonight? Framing
in a little bit differently like that encourages, it kind
(36:55):
of invites more a response that still might not be
of maybe it was terri but it might invite a
little bit more feedback than what you otherwise might get.
And so the idea is in our kind of getting
through life just our social norms, and people have got
lots of things doing. I think we just try to
you know, we have these kind of norms implanted on
(37:15):
us from youngsters and we just roll with it. But
if you can wake up to that moment as you
did and go, you know what, Actually it would have
been nice to get a spot the next time, you
might be more open to the possibility of getting some
help there and that'd be great.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Just compassion and self compassion Should it function hand in hand?
Is it? Do you need to have it to give it?
Speaker 4 (37:41):
I mean this has been looked at a lot by
different different people around the place. No, you can be
very good at giving and useless at self compassion. Yeah,
So there are many in the health professions, for example,
who self sacrifice themselves.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
They're just constantly helping other people.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
I can think of, you know, a couple of doctors
and nurses personally who I know that I would trust
them well with my children's lives.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
But I know they are.
Speaker 4 (38:10):
Absolute awful monsters to themselves and how they criticize, and
part of that is probably tied up in their perfectionism,
all right, And so you know, part of their perfectionistic
striving is they're incredibly self critical towards themselves and don't
treat themselves well at all. You know, they have no weekends,
they have no boundaries to their whole life is their work.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
So you can be very good outwards but not particularly
particularly good in woods.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
You don't tend to see it as much as people
being very good in woods and not particularly good outwards
that that relationship doesn't tend to you don't tend to
see that so often. And in any event, those people
don't tend to come to therapy any anyway.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
But self compassion, you know, a lot of therapy.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Is me I don't want to rock them, that's right.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
But sometimes we can be under the illusion that we are,
you know, quite self compassionate, and then when we break down, okay,
when that didn't go well for you, you know, how
did you react or respond? And just even in my
little example, you know, my first with the conveyor belt
at the shops, the first thing I went to was
you idiot. You know, it's like, well, I mean, I
wouldn't call you an idiot tif.
Speaker 6 (39:23):
If that was there, but we will just give it
a little bit ye yet.
Speaker 4 (39:35):
But you know, we wouldn't usually use that to label someone,
but we can do it so quickly for ourselves, and
sometimes like, oh yeah, I do speak to myself actually
pretty harshly, and certainly I wouldn't want others to speak
to me like that. So yeah, it's until you slow
it down a little bit, can we can kind of
get a sense of actually, perhaps I do struggle with
(39:57):
self compassion a little.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Bit more than what I thought. And again it's just
trying to work.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
Okay, I wonder what that's about, you know, wonder where
that came from, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
I mean, there's a great study.
Speaker 4 (40:05):
Done with adults with ADHD and when they reflect on
their childhood, they report very high levels of criticism from others.
So a lot of people sort of you know, on
measures talking about childhood, like with people with people critical
of you, the PEPICALI names and ece and they score
very highly on those kinds of measures, you know. And
(40:26):
if you talk to someone like, because I have some
clients with it, I was, oh.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Yeah, it's always shut up. What's wrong with you? Just
sit still? What is right?
Speaker 4 (40:36):
Because can't sit still or concentrate or whatever it might be.
And these researchers did the study hypothesize that, you know,
those who are receiving higher levels of criticism from others
are much more likely to be high in their own
self criticism compared.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
To those who have lower levels of criticism from others.
Speaker 4 (40:56):
And there are a lot of people who are scholars
out there who have theorized this. The way people talk
to us starts to be a reference point for how
I'll speak to myself. And so if you've got a
lot of people yelling at you, calling you names and
a critical of you, it's much more likely that you're
going to start to use that yourself as your own
self relating style. And sure enough, those who had that
(41:18):
adult lady actually had very very.
Speaker 5 (41:20):
High levels of self criticism as well compared to those
who didn't.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
So it's again no one's fault, like that person didn't
ask for these.
Speaker 5 (41:28):
Adults to be around and yelling at them in this
way and calling them their names.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
It's just how it was.
Speaker 4 (41:35):
Nor is it their fault that they're likely to use
that to drive their own behavior, because that's how the
adults around them, we're trying to drive the behavior and them.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
What's it like walking around as a bloke, just a
human just trying to do humaning as best he can,
and a dad and be a mate and be everything
that you are and be the compassion guy? Like, is
that heavy? At times? Do you feel my gosh, should
I I got it? Do you have to wear a
(42:03):
mask at times? You can't do that?
Speaker 4 (42:08):
Sometimes it feels like it gives you license to be
a bit take advantage of be a bit more you know,
a bit more blunt. Certainly with my best friends, I
will do that. You know, at times they'll.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
Kind of they'll kind of say something like, oh, you know,
what should I do? Then? I was I may just
get over I don't know what on it but that's.
Speaker 5 (42:29):
That's just to take you know, that piss out of it,
so to speak, make it a bit more fun.
Speaker 4 (42:34):
But my wife kind of says, because I've got so little,
that's why I have to keep studying it to try
to get better at it.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
But she sounds like a psychologist too, mate, Yeah, well
she is.
Speaker 4 (42:46):
Actually, I mean, listen, I don't know to it. To
be honest, I kind of just try to be me
in all kind of kind of situations. But certainly I've
always been you know, I've always been interested and I
don't know, if someone's upset and not quite right. I've
(43:07):
always felt like I've been able to pick up on
that pretty quickly amongst my friends or whatever, and so
I've always had that kind of if they listened, they'll
probably deny, But I myself felt like I was. I
was kind of attuned to that, particularly because I've got
three younger siblings too, and I guess, you know, with
the four of us, I was always kind of pretty
(43:29):
pretty tuned into how they were and stuff, and so
I always felt like I was I was pretty tuned
into that. But yeah, they do give me, My friends
do give me.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
A bit of bit of heat. About it at times.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
I mean because compassion getting into it kind of changed
me as well, because like I wasn't vegetarian or anything
like that before really getting into studying compassion. And then
the more I did it, the more a treats it did,
the more kind of work I was doing in this space,
and the more I was thinking about sentient life and
stuff like that, I was like, oh god, you know,
(44:04):
I don't know if I can. You know, I started
wrestled with that question in my mind. You know, how
do I feel about taking another like.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
A cow's life or whatever it might be.
Speaker 4 (44:12):
And so, you know, I just started playing with those
different ideas. So I went then vegetarian for about I
don't know, about seven years. Then my iron levels were
so drastically low.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
You love him self compassion again and a cow.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Exactly. That's essentially what the doctor said.
Speaker 4 (44:35):
But you know, because you supposed to get a blood
test like after a year or two doing but I
just hadn't got around to.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
One year, seven year typical blog, Yeah, exactly, typical fee,
typical male medical protocol bingo.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
So you know, I mean, it has changed certain things
I do in my every day life hundred percent. But
I think that's a good thing, because I'm always kind
of thinking about because I read something, you know, like
I wonder what I do or you know, you know,
what do I what do we do at home at
the moment.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
Or you know.
Speaker 4 (45:05):
One thing which I found very interesting was there was
this big study done in the US with ten thousand
and fourteen fifteen year old and they asked them to
sort of rate, out of all of these values, what
are the most important values.
Speaker 5 (45:19):
And the values were things like, you know, being caring,
compassion kind, or being successful, achieving and stuff like this.
And eighty percent of the kids in this study, there
were ten thousand of them, eighty percent said being a
success was the most important value. That's what they have
to strive for. Twenty percent. And Americans are.
Speaker 4 (45:40):
Slightly different culture to Australia, of course, and so that
whereas twenty percent felt more on the kind, caring, kind
of kind of domain. And so that was quite quite
a contrast. But then when they asked the parents what
value do they really want in their kids, that was reversed.
They were like, eighty percent, I want my kids to
(46:00):
be caring, kind, compassionate. In twenty percent, we're like you know,
on the success side of things. So we say one thing,
but the message getting through to the children is telling
us a different thing. And so, you know, it makes
sense why teens and stuff would would suggest being that
(46:21):
success is most important, because you know, I need to
get a job, I need to start a life, get
a house, whatever it might be. So that's really important
at that kind of stage of life. But equally a
lot of the interest we show as parents tends to
be about, hey, how are you going at school?
Speaker 3 (46:36):
You know, what's your report cards?
Speaker 4 (46:37):
Like things of this nature, or how you doing that
whatever cocurricular activity you're involved in. We don't often sit
around the table and say, and this is what we've
started to do, what's one kind thing you did today
at school? You know, it's just an implied norm. What's
one kind thing you've done? It's like you must have
done something. What was a kind thing you did?
Speaker 3 (46:59):
Tell us? Or it could be not just putting it
to him.
Speaker 4 (47:02):
I might say, first, well today I did this kind thing,
you know, And again it's trying to establish a kind
of norm that we try to be will try to
do kind things where we can. But unless you're talking
about it and showing it and labeling it, you know,
it won't necessarily trickle through to the kiddos. So trying
(47:25):
to do more of those little things at home has
also been something that I've kind of been picking up on.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
It's a prime example of when we need to think
of how kids do what we do, not what we say.
If we're being compassionate to them but not modeling self compassion,
and then we're hoping that they'll figure out self compassion
somewhere out there in the abyss.
Speaker 3 (47:50):
Yes, yes, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
No.
Speaker 4 (47:52):
Certainly, the way children learn to build that relating, that
self compassion relating style will very much be dependent on
how their parents are responding to them and interacting with them,
but also picking up on what.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
Their parents do themselves when they're struggling and they're upset
and so on.
Speaker 4 (48:10):
So you pick it up, like, you know, and you
kind of get a little bit frightened. You know, when Fletcher,
my son, you know, he's riding to soccer, you know,
and he was trying to do some stuff the other
day and he just said himself.
Speaker 3 (48:23):
For idiot, like mate, hang on, where did this come from?
Speaker 4 (48:27):
And it's like, well, sure enough, he would have picked
it up from me or you know, if not me,
another adult, but most likely me.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
And it's kind of.
Speaker 4 (48:36):
Like, you know, you don't know they're watching. Yeah, yeah,
but they're always got their eyes open.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Yeah. Is there a rule book for success when a
psychologist marries a psychologist? Is they're like some hidden rule
book on how to make that shit work and not
be full of land mines? I mean, same with most relationships,
I guess, but I feel.
Speaker 3 (49:03):
Like it was so funny.
Speaker 4 (49:06):
One of the old professors at the university I'm at
he was a couple's researcher, and which makes it even worse,
so not only a psychologist, but a couple's researcher, and
he was telling me within the couple's researching world, you know,
he was one of the few that were still in
his couple relationship, whereas everyone else broken up.
Speaker 3 (49:33):
I mean, there are landmines.
Speaker 4 (49:35):
Absolutely, I got to help, but just being hysteric sover,
but you know some of the reasons why. But you know,
one key one he said was which makes it so
difficult is a lot of time when you're trying to
do a couples there up, but you're having to do
it after hours, So your relationship of course gets sacrificed
a lot as a result and stuff like this, But
(49:55):
I was like, oh, yeah, but that can't be the
reason for all of them. No, and being married to
a psychologists haven't got any hot tips really. I mean,
in some ways it's excellent because you don't have to
explain some of the difficulties you're having because they kind
of get it, and so it makes it a little
(50:16):
bit easier. But also I find my wife Cassie is
such a wonderful sounding board.
Speaker 3 (50:24):
But we got so many other interests outside.
Speaker 4 (50:26):
Of work that that preoccupy our every I'm all the
kids mostly, but you know, we love movies and books
and stuff like. We'll have more ugents about that stuff then,
but then.
Speaker 3 (50:40):
The psychology comes into it. I suppose. I don't know
how we're managing tip, but we're just getting by. I
love it.
Speaker 4 (50:47):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
You've been so great to talk to. Can people follow you,
find your book, you buy your books or anything else
that you'd like to promote?
Speaker 4 (50:59):
Oh thanks to I mean if they just type James
Kirby into Google, all my stuff should pop up and
then my emails are all there and so on. So yeah,
just just type that in and yeah, drop us along.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
Awesome. Thank you so much, Thank you too, Thanks everyone.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
She said, it's now never. I got fighting in my blood.
Speaker 2 (51:28):
Got it
Speaker 3 (51:29):
Started, it, got it
She said, it's now never I got fighting in my blood.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm tiff. This is Roll with the Punches and we're
turning life's hardest hits into wins. Nobody wants to go
to court, and don't. My friends at test Art Family
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(00:55):
Roll with the Punches.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Oh thanks, Teff. Great to be here, like.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
With mirror, like a bit of a mirror version of
each other when you're like, oh, there was some email
stack of time ago, and I'm like, yeah, someone, someone
I can't remember, told me you were awesome, And so
we're here chatting and we don't know how we arrived here,
but six eight twelve, I don't know how long the
December wasn't.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
It was it?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
So I was really relieved to know it was December,
because I mean, I've got not the most amazing recall.
At the best of times, I get so excited and
I just go and I don't leave a paper trail
for myself. So when it was December, I'm like, thank goodness,
I have permission to just be blatantly. Hey, don't know,
(01:41):
don't know who told me to get you on, don't
know what I thought we'd talk about, but here we are.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I'm so sorry. Isn't that terrible? But thank you so
much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
No, it's great. I feel I'm going to get along
like a house on fire. And especially when I did
do a bit of a refresher, who's this? You're into
some cool stuff that I love talking about. So do
you want to tell the world what you're into?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Yeah? Sure, so yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
I'm based at the University of Queensland in the School
of Psychology. I'm a clinical psychologist. A lot of my
work is focused on research and compassion, particularly compassion focused
therapy to help individuals with high levels of self criticism
and shame and things like that. But I also have
a look at how compassion kind of develops with children
(02:31):
and also like sort of organizationally what levers we might
be able to pull to try to increase the likelihood
someone might act compassionately, But also what factors might you know,
sort of stop or block compassion. So those sorts of
different lab studies, which are always fun.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yeah, I bet you've got a really small tagged audience.
Like everybody.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
It's like what you were sort of mentioning earlier. It's
if you kind of hear I hear something, I'm going,
oh my goodness, that's interesting. Oh yes, oh yeah, no,
that sounds great too, And then all of a sudden
you're kind of doing so many different things at the
same time because it's just all I just find it
also fascinating.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, tell me where it started for you, Like when
did you get into psychology? Was it psychology and then
finding the past to compassion or like what was what
did that look like?
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:24):
My kind of first kind of opening up into this
world of psychology was through the movie Goodwill Hunting. Don't
know if I mean it feels like to me everyone
should know that film. But I was telling students this
the other day. Is I so hears seeing Goodwill Hunting
and no one had seen it, And I'm like what,
But it's about thirty years old now, so that that
(03:46):
kind of tracks, but disappointingly so from my perspective because
it just.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Let me feel old.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
But I watched that movie and just thought it was unbelievable,
just loved Robin Williams and so on. And I was
a high school student at the time, was just like, oh,
my goodness, is this something that one can do with
one's career.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
And then at university.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Took some psychology courses of course and finding out all
these wonderful and bizarre things that the brain does, which
again I had no idea about, and I found all
of that just so interesting in terms of what our
brains can do that can make things difficult for us,
but also the shortcuts it does to make it a
bit easier, but then also how social factors can have
(04:27):
a big influence on our decision making. All this stuff
just was fascinating. But I always knew deep down I
wanted to get.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
Into working one on one and with people in clinical psychology.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
It was there anything about learning psychology that that completely
balsted you where you were like, what, like that wasn't
what you expected?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
The whole yeah, yeah, the whole thing. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
I suppose one of the first was in one lecture.
In one Yeah one lecture, the student the essa John
McLain was talking about an effect called the Stroop effect,
which I'd never heard about before.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
And the Stroop effect is.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Where you would have the word written and just say
if it was cook, you know, and it would be
written in red font, and then say the next word
might underneath, it might be a book and it would
be in blue font, and it would just keep going
like a different words, random words, but with different colored font,
and you would be asked to read as quickly as
you can the color of the font.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
But our brain doesn't want to do that. It kind
of wants to read the word.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
We were so like reading so automated would stuff it up,
and then to make it a layer of difficulty, they
would have the words then written, not just random words
cook and book and stuff. They would actually have the
word red the word yellow. So that makes it even
more confusing because.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
Now you're having to read yellow, but in the font
it would be in which would be blue, say, and
that would just be very.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Tricky to do. So you'd have to always having to
read the color, but you read it again yellow, but
it's blue. So when we did that as a whole group,
I was like, Oh my goodness. I didn't realize how
difficult that would be. And then there was this other
kind of eye open I just with remembering numbers. So
we would be told a sequence of numbers like six four, eight, one, nine, seven, eight,
(06:20):
and you had it go up to about ten, and
then you'd have to re recall how many of those
numbers you could remember, And if you had no strategy,
you could probably do about six to seven. But if
you chunked the numbers into groups of four, for example,
you could remember a lot more of those numbers. So
just some little hacks like that really fascinated me and
(06:42):
blew my mind open, and.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
It's like, oh goodness, what else is there? And this
is just the first lecture.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, I was going to say that. I imagine that
was really early on. And what I love about that
is it's actually quite your mind goes, or mind does.
I'm very inquisitive and curious. My mind goes so deep
into the meaning and where that can be applied in
our own lives. And that's like the first thing you learn.
Like we over complicate so much, but to me just
(07:10):
hearing that, it's like, oh, we have so much to
sit down and think about.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
I mean things on the surface seeing very simple, very straightforward,
getting through things quite easily. But your mind is doing
all of these complicated shortcuts and things for you to
kind of navigate through life very easily. I remember, which
I never spent any time contemplating. And then when you do,
you kind of go, oh, my goodness, I wonder how
(07:36):
many times I've made little errors or mistakes And it's
not because of anything wrong with me, it's just this
is how it plays out in the mind. So that
was very freeing in some ways. I remember one professor
Thomas Suttendorf, in a cognitive psychology like you talk about,
just asked the question how many door handles are there
in your home where you're living? Well, like, I think,
(07:58):
got no idea, He goes, no, no, Just close your
eyes and slowly go through as if you're walking through
your house. And if you slow that break close your
eyes and pretend you're opening the front door. You can
almost with a very good level of accuracy, get the
exact number of door handles there are because you kind
of okay, walk through the front door, and then to
my right there's another room, and then you can count
it all up. But if you just had to give
(08:19):
a straight answer, yes, no idea, but the way the
mind works again, it's just a little slow. But guiding
yourself through that, you can then give a very close
to correct answer.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
When people, So, I guess, think about the people that
you went to those first through the first level of
studies with by the time you come out the end
of that, and you've all learned the same thing. How
different at the beginning before you've dealt probably gone into
different areas and dealt with different people and made lots
(08:52):
of new learnings. How different do you think first level
psychologists are when they first get out and they've all
learn the same thing.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
As in like they've all worked walked out with the same.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Same of the same teachings. This is what you learned,
this is now what you know. Go and start working
with humans.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Yeah, yeah, and working So, I guess psychology is so diverse.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
So after you finish your your fourth year of study,
so usually that would be three year undergrad and a
fourth year honors, psychology can work. You can work in
many different areas, so you can kind of work a lot.
A lot of people finish their fourth year, they might
work as an analyst for you know, the strange tax
office or mains transport or something like that. Because one
thing psychologists are trained very well in is measurement and
(09:41):
methodology and trying to interpret hang on, can we actually
conclude that based on the data that we collected? And
we also get trained a lot in analysis statistical analysis.
Now that's not what I anticipated when I started psychology,
but about half our courses are stats and research methods,
so you to get trained very strongly on that, and
(10:02):
that can be a bit of an eye opener for
many people. And then it's not until after that you
then will enroll in a master's degree, which would then
be another two years of say Masters of Clinical Psychology.
But there's also a host of other different programs all pside,
and someone's brought to exercise where in that postgraduate study
you can then sort of work one on one with people. Now,
(10:24):
when it gets to that master's level and you're doing
that two years, we're kind of constantly assessed on our competencies,
so like, can you display these kinds of skill sets?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
And so yes, there is.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
A lot of kind of by that point, because you're
so watched and monitored and assessed that you're meeting the
basic competency. There is a lot of yeah, we're all
going out with it with a similar set of skills,
well very close to similar set of skills as you
kind of hope, because we're registered by you know, Australian
health regulatory bodies. But when you've been in it's so diverse.
(10:57):
It's so diverse what people have walked away with as
the key learnings. You know.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
I have some friends who.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Work in expert testimonies for like eyewitness identification, and other
people kind of work in marketing for you know, how
to get people interested in clicking on your kind of brand,
and then other people who are working, you know, with
(11:23):
air traffic control trying to work out best safety procedures
and stuff like that. So you can just apply it
in so many diverse ways, which I think is one
of the one of the strengths of a psychology agree.
But also for some that's a bit scary, you know,
because it's not kind of clear this is exactly what
I'm going to do.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
With my degree.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
In fact, it can be used in so many different ways. Actually,
where do I want to take it.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I don't know for someone who's had almost a thousand
conversations that heavily lean into human psychology and talking to psychologists,
and I've just learned something for the first time. I
never realized the breadth of what avenue that can take
you down. That was unexpected.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Yeah, well, no, I think for most when they get
into it, go into thinking I'll end up working, you know,
essentially as a clinical psychologist like Fraser Crane or something
like that off the television, or Freud or something like
that that springs to mind. But really, you know, psychologists
are interested in a lot of ways human behavior and
(12:29):
just trying to work out what kind of drives it
and how can we use that, and of course, then
as you mentioned earlier, that can just be applied in
so many different ways.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
So what angle did you take? Where did you run
off to when you school doors?
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Yes, I got into clinical psychology because of goodwill hunting,
and then after I finished my masters, I did what
they call it a combined master's.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
PhD, which I call a clinical p HD.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
So post masters, I was working in private practice for
a while, working in a couple of different hospitals as well,
I still do private practice, but now I also have
an academic job at the university where I researched, that
was the PhD. So I wasn't sure if I wanted
to work straight as a researcher or as a clinician.
So doing both allowed that flexibility and I leaned in
(13:24):
the early days more on practicing, and now I have
moved more into the research.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
And did you know what you wanted? Was it the
area of research that took you to researching or was
it I want to research? What the hell am I
going to? Well? What is here and what am I
interested in? And what can I find?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (13:43):
Exactly, I don't know. Really, I think a bit of both.
Like I knew for my PhD, I wanted to do
something that would have use, like it would be applied.
And a guy at the University of Queensland called Professor
Matt sand has developed this program called the Triple P
Positive pair In Program and this was a program that
he developed like.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
In the I want to say, early nineties.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
It's been around for a long time now, but it
was to help parents, you know, with the raising of
the children, with raising of their children, particularly in the
early days for children who were the parents were really
struggling with with some kind of emotion or behavioral kind
of difficulty. So I thought, oh, I wouldn't mind doing
something in that space. It kind of feels like I
could learn something really valuable maybe that I could use
(14:26):
eventually because I'd hope to become a parent.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
But also secondly, you know a lot of programs that developed.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
By Triple P are then rolled out and people are
trained in and it can have direct impact for clients.
So I was really interested in that and developed a
version of the program for grandparents and that was kind
of specifically for grandparents who were doing a lot of
childcare of the grandkids. So you know, at least twelve
(14:55):
to thirteen hours a week and a lot of instances.
All of that works very.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Well that arrangement.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
But I was interested in those situations where there was
a bit of tension and conflict between parent and grandparents
about how things were done and trying to help help
those families, and so I got into so I developed
a program called Grandparent Triple P, which is part of
the Triple P suite of programs, and got to run
groups with grandparents trying to help them manage that and
(15:22):
so really enjoyed that, loved that, and got trained in
a bunch of other Triple PA programs, and that was
kind of my introduction to a lot of clinical work.
But then since then i've kind of you know, you
continue with your curiosity, you continued professional development which were
required to do, and stumbled into compassion focused therapy, which
(15:42):
has kind of been my focus now for the last
fifteen years.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Probably, yeah, awesome, all right, I love that I have done.
I've talked about compassion before, but I know I sought
you out of this conversation because I think I'm interested
in the science of compassion. I'm interested in this stuff
that we just don't think about when it comes to compassion.
So I want to know fifteen years worth of knowledge
(16:07):
in the next forty five minutes. If that's good, easy.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Easy, easy, and that borous, we won't need forty five.
Speaker 6 (16:17):
No.
Speaker 4 (16:18):
I mean, when you start out, you know you've got
that beginner's mind.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
You know you're just exploring.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
And I think your question I was like, I was
really wanting to do something apply that could be of use,
that people could could take away with and their life
might be slightly easier or better, and that got me
into the triple P stuff. But equally, as you're doing research,
it's so it's just fun. It's starting to think about, Okay, well,
what are we trying to do, what are we hoping
(16:45):
to do, what have others done? What things can we
do to make this happen? And that's just a lot
of brainstorming and conversations amongst your colleagues, trying to improve
the nature of the work you're doing to answer some
kind of fundamental question. And then you get to test
it to see if it comes out the way you
hypothesized or not. And I just find that itself just
(17:08):
such a I guess, a privileged position to have to
be able to all your life just go, okay, let's
test this out.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Let's test this out.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
And then you've got these really smart PhD students who
want to do this stuff as well, and other colleagues,
and all of a sudden your idea gets transformed into
something even better than what you originally thought it could be.
And then you see what findings you get. And then
if you don't get what you anticipate, that's really interesting
because you're like, oh goodness, okay, there's something going on here.
Maybe it's our design, or maybe it's the program, whatever
(17:35):
it might be. So you get to have a lot
of fun. So that's just very rewarding that process in
and of itself. But yes, I got into compassion, and
so because I had done a lot of work in parenting,
I initially tried to bring a compassion focus into the
parenting work I was doing. And so I'd read read
a lot of Paul Gilbert Nef and others who had
(17:59):
done a lot to work in this space.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
It was kind of guided by that.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
But what becomes very quick is you kind of think
you've got a sense of what it is, and then
the more you read about, the more you do it,
the more experiment about it, it's like, oh, goodness is
complicated and messy, and there are all these ifs, butts,
and ors related to it. So on the surface, it
seems simple, like the definition I use is compassions to
(18:24):
sensitivity to suffering, either in yourself or in others, and others.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Could be any sentient creature. And that's the first part.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
And then the second part is then trying to do
something to alleviate or prevent it, which is kind of
the second part. And on the surface, again, that seems
pretty straightforward, kind of helpful, pro social behavior. But then
the way this kind of operates will depend on so
many different factors. I think one of the easiest ones
to use as an example is that kind of compassionate
(18:55):
tendency we have works very well for the people we like,
but as soon as we change that target from someone
we like to someone we dislike, our willingness to do
compassionate behavior drops massively. So I just like doing those
sorts of things, trying to work out, Okay, what things
can we shift which will influence likelihood of seeing compassionate
(19:15):
behavior or not.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I just returned to which I hadn't been for quite
a while. Just up the road for me. There's a
weekly meditation class from a Buddhist center in the city.
And obviously the word compassion is filtered throughout almost doesn't
matter where you go to talk about that word is
just repeated all of the time. But I love the
(19:37):
mind rabbit holes that those simple yet super complex teachings
that they do right before throwing you into a little
meditation is. Yeah, it's what do people think compassion is?
That it's not? Are there things that people call compassion
or think a compassion that aren't.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
That aren't compassion? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (20:01):
Absolutely, I mean absolutely. I mean a lot of the time,
there's a lot of overlap, like a lot of ven
diagram overlap between a lot of these concepts. But you know,
in every day vernacular, you know, layperson language, we do
use certain terms interchangeably, but they are slightly different. So,
I mean, one clear one is compassion and kindness. So
(20:22):
people will use those two words is if they're the
same thing, and they're very similar. But kindness is more
anchored in trying to create happiness or an improved sense
of well being in the other but is towards you
flourishing and being happy, and that's really important, you know.
So things that will be like a kindness act would
(20:43):
be like a gesture or a favor for you, may
buying you something that I know will make you happy,
whereas compassion is anchored and suffering. So you know, I'd
be like, Okay, what's you know, Tiff.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Is really sad? What can I do to help with
her sadness?
Speaker 4 (20:59):
So trying to zero in on the sadness and try
to do something related to that. So with kindness, you
don't have to have suffering involved for me to be
kind to you, whereas with compassion, we're doing something to
address whatever the suffering is. Now, they could still be
the same act, but it's just in one instance, the
act is trying to reduce your suffering because it's addressing
(21:21):
this particular emotion or painful difficulty, whereas in the other instance, no,
the act is you know, could just say being spending
giving up my time to really listen to you, but
that active listening could be for you to share a
real positive experience and award you just want, or some
kind of really cool experience you've had. Me listening to
that is kind of like me showing kindness towards you
(21:41):
and wanting to show that I'm interested in you, and
you get that opportunity to share that fun. Whereas that
active listening and being tuned in in time towards someone's
suffering talk about sad and the same act, but here
I'm trying to connect into that person's suffering and help
them not feel alone with that, and I'm trying to
reduce that suffering. It's not to make them happy, but
(22:02):
it's trying to respect and connect with the pain that
they're in.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
I'm guessing it takes quite a high level of self
awareness really then for someone to identify if an act
that they are doing is coming from truly from a
place of kindness versus compassion.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Yeah, I mean, sometimes it's best not to try to
overcomplicate it.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
That's not sometimes than of over complicating everything games.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
Yeah, I mean some you know, so sometimes you know,
I've got a book out called Choose Compassion and that
I sort of talk a little bit about how kind
acts can be the gateways into more compassionate moments.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
So you know, if just say, tif you lost your cash.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
Or something like that, or you've lost something really important
to you, rather than connecting to the grief immediately and
kind of you know, tell me what you're thinking about,
telling me what's going on to I might.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Bake you a lasagna, thing like that.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Let's not just get to michaels A Garfield, but I
might bring you up, bring others like cook a meal
to make your life a little bit easier, maybe make
you just you remember that you know you loved and
stuff like that. So I'm not going into addressing the
core of the suffering, but I'm trying to kind of
do something of a kindness to know that you know
(23:21):
you're connected. We want the best for you, and dropping
that off and talking to you for a little bit
might then open up to you wanting to connect. It
might not, but it might lead you to want to go, yeah,
it's been it's been really tough, and then all of
a sudden you get moving more into a compassionate kind
of orientation. What we've done in research, for example, is
(23:43):
if you change the target towards someone you like versus
someone you dislike, if you had to do kind acts
for them. That's where we see a lot of difference
between kindness and compassion playing out in everyday life. So
if it's a person you like, you will do and
compassionate things for them all of the time ten out
of ten. But if it's someone you dislike and that
(24:06):
person is suffering, you will still want to do something
compassionate for them, just not to the same degree as
if it was a like person, but more like a
five or six out of ten, not a ten out
of ten. But if it was do this kind act
for this person you dislike, it drops down to zero.
There's no way I want to do this kind act
for you, know, Samantha, because she did X, Y, and
(24:30):
Z to me and I don't like it, But if
Samantha is struggling and hurting, we still tend to go okay, yes,
despite that, I want to do something to help because
that kind of sucks. So I think that's important on
like a global scale, because a lot of memes will
hear are things like, you know, be kind to everyone
you meet because you don't know what they're going through.
(24:50):
But if that target is someone you dislike, telling them
people to be kind act as an immediate barrier towards
helpful behavior, whereas I would argue, yeah, try to be
compassionate to.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Everyone you meet because you never know what they're going through.
Speaker 4 (25:05):
Has less less of a barrier. But yeah, just little
things like that.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
What work do we need to do when we are
that person and want to move the needle? But it's hard,
Like I've been that person, and I consider that a
lot like I have. We have this relationship with Okay,
I understand that hurt people hurt people, and I understand
that everybody's got there. Nobody's behavior is because they just
(25:36):
turned up in this happy life and wanted to be
an asshole. But when something's hurt us, how do we
heal the hurt in us enough to be able to
reach that level of compassion against people that we don't
want to.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Yeah, I mean that's the million dollar questions. That's a
million dollar questions.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
The monks haven't quite got me all the way there yet.
You know, we're sitting in met we're contum planning.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
I mean, spiritual traditions have been trying to kind of
connect into this millennia. You know, how do we expend, sorry,
how do we expand our moral concern towards others who
we typically don't consider worthy or perhaps we even deem
(26:23):
you know, the causes of our suffering?
Speaker 3 (26:26):
So how do we work with that?
Speaker 4 (26:28):
And there's no clear right answer there, but one of
the ways we can and research kind of backst is,
you know, if we can anchor ourselves in compassion. So
sometimes with compassion, one of the key things is to
recognize and this is what we sometimes do in therapy
is kind of like, you know, if you've been hurt
by someone, you don't have to be their best friend,
(26:50):
like you know, the idea, the goal isn't necessarily so
let's just address that. Firstly, if you have been hurt
by someone if you're wanting to connect with them again
and try to change that relationship, that is not therefore
me and the relationship has to be one where you
see them as your best friend. You're going to spend
every moment together, We're all going to be lovey dovey. No,
not necessarily. Sometimes the first thing with compassion is recognizing, hey,
(27:12):
you hurt me, and that really hurt, but I'm not
going to hurt you back. So one of the most
important things is well, as a compassion and intention, you know,
we want to kind of reduce suffering, but even if
that doesn't seem to be possible, and we certainly don't
want to be the cause of further suffering, and so
it might be a case of, well, rather than going
tip for tat on the hurt and you hurt me,
(27:34):
so I'm going to hurt you back, until.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
We're kind of even a kind of compassion orientation.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
We'd be okay, well, I'm not going to hurt you,
and then you can start to at least start to
move into the process of forgiveness.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
But again that's really, really, really tricky.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
And again, forgiveness doesn't mean you forget, of course not,
but it's kind of again trying to look at this
from a compassion orientation. You know, not only have you
got one one eye on the target that you're invested in,
and so this is your deliberate choice. This is something
I'm literally trying to do because I want to change
the nature of this relationship. But as I'm focusing on
(28:09):
this other, there will be things that will be coming
up within me as well. So one of the most
important things in our kind of compassion focused therapy approach,
which Paul Gilbert founded, was this idea of flow of compassion.
So that's the compassion going out towards the other, but
how you had been self compassion and also how are
(28:30):
you at receiving compassion from other people? So you know,
as you're going through and addressing that, you always want
to check in with your flow. And as it's going
out towards a person that you've got in mind as
the target, you know they might not be prepared already
yet for the nature of that relationship to change, or
(28:50):
for them to even address the hurt that they may have,
cause they might not be at that point yet either.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
So it becomes very tricky. No one's fault, it's just
kind of it's just tricky.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
It's I was having to chat with somebody yesterday, a
good friend, and she's got a lot, a lot of
different things going on and you know, having a hell
of a year, and was talking about as she's starting
to come out of that, one of her beautiful friends
had had given a beautiful gift, like a really generous
(29:25):
support for something that she's got coming up, and she
just was really struggling to accept it. And I remember
just going, you stop, like park it, park yourself for
two years except that and go in two years if
I'm in a better place, Like this person wants to
give you this to help you, and you're standing in
(29:46):
the way of them having the effect of their own kindness,
Like they're giving you a gift, And imagine if you
were in the position to give that gift, how good
you would feel, And you're stopping them from feeling good.
Because why do we struggle to have self compassion and
accept compassion? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Yeah, the two most ones we have difficulty with receiving
compassion from others than self compassion. So if I was
to ask a group, and so that's what we do
in a group, We kind of go through what they'd
like to do. If you have the choice, speak passion
towards another, be self compassionate, or receive compassion.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Everyone goes, oh, you'd like to give it. That's the
way they all want to do.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
Which is really interesting because there's all these acts of
compassion going out, But who we're receiving these acts? Are
they even aware they receiving these acts or has it
been forced down their necks? So, I mean, that's funny
and not itself. I mean, there's lots of different I mean,
this is such a psychology response. I'm sorry, but there
are so many different reasons as.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
To why we can struggle.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
Some of the key ones, some of the more common
ones in terms of like receiving compassion from another is
you know typic. We talk about this role of reciprocity,
and so the idea is is kind of like, you know,
if I've received compassion or kindness from someone, if I
know them and we're in a long standing relationship, I'd
(31:10):
be more willing to accept it because I know I'll
have the chance to reciprocate and give it back.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
And so we don't like not.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
Having balanced relationships. We like things to have a feeling
of a sense of I'm there for them when they
need it, and they're there for me when they need
it or when I need it. So and so it's
the same for like to Sometimes I use the example
of myself.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
You know, I was a dad.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
With my second kiddo. I was just at the supermarket
at the shops at the conveyor belt, had little Sophia,
who's my second, in the baby pouch kind of thing,
and my younger by old the boy Fletch, who was
about three and a half at the time, and I
was trying to put the stuff in the trolley on
a conveyor belt. And as I was doing that, of
course because of west fears head was it hit the trolley.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Good dad moment exactly.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
So She's crying, and then Fletcher's crying because fears crying.
And then this guy came over to me here, let
me help you put your gear up and said, oh mate,
it's all right, I've got it, and he walked away
and he took a moment when in my other self
talk you idiot.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Why did you say no to help? And again, because
you know many different reasons.
Speaker 4 (32:29):
One is you don't want to be a burden and
stuff like that, and it's like, no, I can manage this.
Speaker 5 (32:34):
I can do it.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
But also secondly, it's a stranger, and I won't have
that chance to repay, to help repay the favor.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
So sometimes we can feel like we then carry this debt.
You know, there's this.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
Debt of help I've received, and I want to be
able to repay it, but I'm never going.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
To see you again. It's a one off.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
But thankfully I said to myself very quickly, you idiot,
you do all this research in this space, ask for help,
you desperately need it.
Speaker 5 (33:02):
So I just said, mate, actually it would be amazing
if you could help me.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
And it was great. It came back, did it little
for us, It was terrific. But that's just the very
I use that example.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
It's so benign, like it's just such a simple mundane task,
you know, putting your trolley stuff on the conveyor belt.
But even in something as simple as that, we can
have a tendency to say no. So some of those
things can be burdened not being able to repay the favor.
For example, sometimes it can be factors I'm characteristic of
the person, so we might go I don't want to
(33:33):
be helped by that kind of person because I get
the feeling that they're only helping to get off on it,
so they're not really helping to help me. They're helping
because they want to feel good about it. I'm not
going to give you that kind of sense of satisfaction.
So there can be that kind of domain or element.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
To it as well.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
So but yeah, yes, you know, lots of other embarrassing
don't think I'm deserving lots of differentferent things like that embarrassment.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
I always talk about how we are these emotional beings,
right that have emotional reactions to everything and then act
and then justify. And I was just thinking then as
you told that story, I hadn't even thought of this.
Yesterday when I was at the gym and I was
(34:23):
a bit tired, so I was on the bench press
and it was heavier than it should have been. I
was like, and one of the guys there who's always
there but we never really interacted, he was. He just
looked up and goes, oh, did you want a spot
for the next And I was before I even it
was funny because when I think of it now, I
hadn't I wasn't present yet in what he was saying,
(34:44):
I just went on, no, no, that's cool. I'm not
going to go as heavy. And then I was sitting
there going, that's not like, he's not a creepy dude,
go on hoop. It wasn't like wasn't creepy. It was like,
there's a guy that you never interact with that is
always here when you're here, and it'd be nice. It's
nice when you make friends at the gym, or at
least like if I saw someone and I wanted to
(35:06):
spot them or help them in their training, I would
love it if they accepted that. And I was just like,
I wish I did. Why did I answer so quick?
What was that quick propensity to go, oh no, no, it's fine,
I won't get in the way. I don't want to
bother you. I don't want it. I don't know what
that was.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of it is. It can be
just social discourse. You know, we've just this part of
our society. You know, it's kind of like, you know,
I don't want to you know, just kind of get
on with it, you know, just that kind of mentality
that kind of infiltrates through right from when you're a
youngster to to to an adult, a thinking, mature adult
(35:43):
who is able to receive it. But just the automaticity
of no, it's fine, I've got this, thanks mate, she's sweet.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
It can be the immediate.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
Response and that's that's fine. In some ways that can
be that can be beneficial, but at other times it
does something about you as a person. It's just you're
engaging in the everyday backwards and forwards. I mean to
give you an example of this, and this is what
we sometimes use and approach a therapy called like feedback
and form therapy. Is often when we're looking for feedback,
(36:13):
we'll say something, oh, how was that, you know, and
we'll say, oh, yeah, no, it was good, it was good.
And we sometimes use the example if you go to
a restaurant and the waiter says, how was your meal,
and we'll often just get engaged in and just like, yeah,
it was good, it was good.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Meanwhiles it was terrible, it was dry, toast, very nice.
You're just being polite. Yeah, no, good, it was good.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
It's all right, thank you. So we just say that
and then they walk away. But if the waiter had
framed it a little bit differently, like, oh, hey, we're
just playing within you menu. We haven't tried this one before.
There are a couple of little things we're trying out
for the first time. We're unsure exactly how the meals
are landing. How did you find your meal tonight? Framing
in a little bit differently like that encourages, it kind
(36:55):
of invites more a response that still might not be
of maybe it was terri but it might invite a
little bit more feedback than what you otherwise might get.
And so the idea is in our kind of getting
through life just our social norms, and people have got
lots of things doing. I think we just try to
you know, we have these kind of norms implanted on
(37:15):
us from youngsters and we just roll with it. But
if you can wake up to that moment as you
did and go, you know what, Actually it would have
been nice to get a spot the next time, you
might be more open to the possibility of getting some
help there and that'd be great.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Just compassion and self compassion Should it function hand in hand?
Is it? Do you need to have it to give it?
Speaker 4 (37:41):
I mean this has been looked at a lot by
different different people around the place. No, you can be
very good at giving and useless at self compassion. Yeah,
So there are many in the health professions, for example,
who self sacrifice themselves.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
They're just constantly helping other people.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
I can think of, you know, a couple of doctors
and nurses personally who I know that I would trust
them well with my children's lives.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
But I know they are.
Speaker 4 (38:10):
Absolute awful monsters to themselves and how they criticize, and
part of that is probably tied up in their perfectionism,
all right, And so you know, part of their perfectionistic
striving is they're incredibly self critical towards themselves and don't
treat themselves well at all. You know, they have no weekends,
they have no boundaries to their whole life is their work.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
So you can be very good outwards but not particularly
particularly good in woods.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
You don't tend to see it as much as people
being very good in woods and not particularly good outwards
that that relationship doesn't tend to you don't tend to
see that so often. And in any event, those people
don't tend to come to therapy any anyway.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
But self compassion, you know, a lot of therapy.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Is me I don't want to rock them, that's right.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
But sometimes we can be under the illusion that we are,
you know, quite self compassionate, and then when we break down, okay,
when that didn't go well for you, you know, how
did you react or respond? And just even in my
little example, you know, my first with the conveyor belt
at the shops, the first thing I went to was
you idiot. You know, it's like, well, I mean, I
wouldn't call you an idiot tif.
Speaker 6 (39:23):
If that was there, but we will just give it
a little bit ye yet.
Speaker 4 (39:35):
But you know, we wouldn't usually use that to label someone,
but we can do it so quickly for ourselves, and
sometimes like, oh yeah, I do speak to myself actually
pretty harshly, and certainly I wouldn't want others to speak
to me like that. So yeah, it's until you slow
it down a little bit, can we can kind of
get a sense of actually, perhaps I do struggle with
(39:57):
self compassion a little.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Bit more than what I thought. And again it's just
trying to work.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
Okay, I wonder what that's about, you know, wonder where
that came from, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
I mean, there's a great study.
Speaker 4 (40:05):
Done with adults with ADHD and when they reflect on
their childhood, they report very high levels of criticism from others.
So a lot of people sort of you know, on
measures talking about childhood, like with people with people critical
of you, the PEPICALI names and ece and they score
very highly on those kinds of measures, you know. And
(40:26):
if you talk to someone like, because I have some
clients with it, I was, oh.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Yeah, it's always shut up. What's wrong with you? Just
sit still? What is right?
Speaker 4 (40:36):
Because can't sit still or concentrate or whatever it might be.
And these researchers did the study hypothesize that, you know,
those who are receiving higher levels of criticism from others
are much more likely to be high in their own
self criticism compared.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
To those who have lower levels of criticism from others.
Speaker 4 (40:56):
And there are a lot of people who are scholars
out there who have theorized this. The way people talk
to us starts to be a reference point for how
I'll speak to myself. And so if you've got a
lot of people yelling at you, calling you names and
a critical of you, it's much more likely that you're
going to start to use that yourself as your own
self relating style. And sure enough, those who had that
(41:18):
adult lady actually had very very.
Speaker 5 (41:20):
High levels of self criticism as well compared to those
who didn't.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
So it's again no one's fault, like that person didn't
ask for these.
Speaker 5 (41:28):
Adults to be around and yelling at them in this
way and calling them their names.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
It's just how it was.
Speaker 4 (41:35):
Nor is it their fault that they're likely to use
that to drive their own behavior, because that's how the
adults around them, we're trying to drive the behavior and them.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
What's it like walking around as a bloke, just a
human just trying to do humaning as best he can,
and a dad and be a mate and be everything
that you are and be the compassion guy? Like, is
that heavy? At times? Do you feel my gosh, should
I I got it? Do you have to wear a
(42:03):
mask at times? You can't do that?
Speaker 4 (42:08):
Sometimes it feels like it gives you license to be
a bit take advantage of be a bit more you know,
a bit more blunt. Certainly with my best friends, I
will do that. You know, at times they'll.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
Kind of they'll kind of say something like, oh, you know,
what should I do? Then? I was I may just
get over I don't know what on it but that's.
Speaker 5 (42:29):
That's just to take you know, that piss out of it,
so to speak, make it a bit more fun.
Speaker 4 (42:34):
But my wife kind of says, because I've got so little,
that's why I have to keep studying it to try
to get better at it.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
But she sounds like a psychologist too, mate, Yeah, well
she is.
Speaker 4 (42:46):
Actually, I mean, listen, I don't know to it. To
be honest, I kind of just try to be me
in all kind of kind of situations. But certainly I've
always been you know, I've always been interested and I
don't know, if someone's upset and not quite right. I've
(43:07):
always felt like I've been able to pick up on
that pretty quickly amongst my friends or whatever, and so
I've always had that kind of if they listened, they'll
probably deny, But I myself felt like I was. I
was kind of attuned to that, particularly because I've got
three younger siblings too, and I guess, you know, with
the four of us, I was always kind of pretty
(43:29):
pretty tuned into how they were and stuff, and so
I always felt like I was I was pretty tuned
into that. But yeah, they do give me, My friends
do give me.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
A bit of bit of heat. About it at times.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
I mean because compassion getting into it kind of changed
me as well, because like I wasn't vegetarian or anything
like that before really getting into studying compassion. And then
the more I did it, the more a treats it did,
the more kind of work I was doing in this space,
and the more I was thinking about sentient life and
stuff like that, I was like, oh god, you know,
(44:04):
I don't know if I can. You know, I started
wrestled with that question in my mind. You know, how
do I feel about taking another like.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
A cow's life or whatever it might be.
Speaker 4 (44:12):
And so, you know, I just started playing with those
different ideas. So I went then vegetarian for about I
don't know, about seven years. Then my iron levels were
so drastically low.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
You love him self compassion again and a cow.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Exactly. That's essentially what the doctor said.
Speaker 4 (44:35):
But you know, because you supposed to get a blood
test like after a year or two doing but I
just hadn't got around to.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
One year, seven year typical blog, Yeah, exactly, typical fee,
typical male medical protocol bingo.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
So you know, I mean, it has changed certain things
I do in my every day life hundred percent. But
I think that's a good thing, because I'm always kind
of thinking about because I read something, you know, like
I wonder what I do or you know, you know,
what do I what do we do at home at
the moment.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
Or you know.
Speaker 4 (45:05):
One thing which I found very interesting was there was
this big study done in the US with ten thousand
and fourteen fifteen year old and they asked them to
sort of rate, out of all of these values, what
are the most important values.
Speaker 5 (45:19):
And the values were things like, you know, being caring,
compassion kind, or being successful, achieving and stuff like this.
And eighty percent of the kids in this study, there
were ten thousand of them, eighty percent said being a
success was the most important value. That's what they have
to strive for. Twenty percent. And Americans are.
Speaker 4 (45:40):
Slightly different culture to Australia, of course, and so that
whereas twenty percent felt more on the kind, caring, kind
of kind of domain. And so that was quite quite
a contrast. But then when they asked the parents what
value do they really want in their kids, that was reversed.
They were like, eighty percent, I want my kids to
(46:00):
be caring, kind, compassionate. In twenty percent, we're like you know,
on the success side of things. So we say one thing,
but the message getting through to the children is telling
us a different thing. And so, you know, it makes
sense why teens and stuff would would suggest being that
(46:21):
success is most important, because you know, I need to
get a job, I need to start a life, get
a house, whatever it might be. So that's really important
at that kind of stage of life. But equally a
lot of the interest we show as parents tends to
be about, hey, how are you going at school?
Speaker 3 (46:36):
You know, what's your report cards?
Speaker 4 (46:37):
Like things of this nature, or how you doing that
whatever cocurricular activity you're involved in. We don't often sit
around the table and say, and this is what we've
started to do, what's one kind thing you did today
at school? You know, it's just an implied norm. What's
one kind thing you've done? It's like you must have
done something. What was a kind thing you did?
Speaker 3 (46:59):
Tell us? Or it could be not just putting it
to him.
Speaker 4 (47:02):
I might say, first, well today I did this kind thing,
you know, And again it's trying to establish a kind
of norm that we try to be will try to
do kind things where we can. But unless you're talking
about it and showing it and labeling it, you know,
it won't necessarily trickle through to the kiddos. So trying
(47:25):
to do more of those little things at home has
also been something that I've kind of been picking up on.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
It's a prime example of when we need to think
of how kids do what we do, not what we say.
If we're being compassionate to them but not modeling self compassion,
and then we're hoping that they'll figure out self compassion
somewhere out there in the abyss.
Speaker 3 (47:50):
Yes, yes, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
No.
Speaker 4 (47:52):
Certainly, the way children learn to build that relating, that
self compassion relating style will very much be dependent on
how their parents are responding to them and interacting with them,
but also picking up on what.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
Their parents do themselves when they're struggling and they're upset
and so on.
Speaker 4 (48:10):
So you pick it up, like, you know, and you
kind of get a little bit frightened. You know, when Fletcher,
my son, you know, he's riding to soccer, you know,
and he was trying to do some stuff the other
day and he just said himself.
Speaker 3 (48:23):
For idiot, like mate, hang on, where did this come from?
Speaker 4 (48:27):
And it's like, well, sure enough, he would have picked
it up from me or you know, if not me,
another adult, but most likely me.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
And it's kind of.
Speaker 4 (48:36):
Like, you know, you don't know they're watching. Yeah, yeah,
but they're always got their eyes open.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Yeah. Is there a rule book for success when a
psychologist marries a psychologist? Is they're like some hidden rule
book on how to make that shit work and not
be full of land mines? I mean, same with most relationships,
I guess, but I feel.
Speaker 3 (49:03):
Like it was so funny.
Speaker 4 (49:06):
One of the old professors at the university I'm at
he was a couple's researcher, and which makes it even worse,
so not only a psychologist, but a couple's researcher, and
he was telling me within the couple's researching world, you know,
he was one of the few that were still in
his couple relationship, whereas everyone else broken up.
Speaker 3 (49:33):
I mean, there are landmines.
Speaker 4 (49:35):
Absolutely, I got to help, but just being hysteric sover,
but you know some of the reasons why. But you know,
one key one he said was which makes it so
difficult is a lot of time when you're trying to
do a couples there up, but you're having to do
it after hours, So your relationship of course gets sacrificed
a lot as a result and stuff like this, But
(49:55):
I was like, oh, yeah, but that can't be the
reason for all of them. No, and being married to
a psychologists haven't got any hot tips really. I mean,
in some ways it's excellent because you don't have to
explain some of the difficulties you're having because they kind
of get it, and so it makes it a little
(50:16):
bit easier. But also I find my wife Cassie is
such a wonderful sounding board.
Speaker 3 (50:24):
But we got so many other interests outside.
Speaker 4 (50:26):
Of work that that preoccupy our every I'm all the
kids mostly, but you know, we love movies and books
and stuff like. We'll have more ugents about that stuff then,
but then.
Speaker 3 (50:40):
The psychology comes into it. I suppose. I don't know
how we're managing tip, but we're just getting by. I
love it.
Speaker 4 (50:47):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
You've been so great to talk to. Can people follow you,
find your book, you buy your books or anything else
that you'd like to promote?
Speaker 4 (50:59):
Oh thanks to I mean if they just type James
Kirby into Google, all my stuff should pop up and
then my emails are all there and so on. So yeah,
just just type that in and yeah, drop us along.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
Awesome. Thank you so much, Thank you too, Thanks everyone.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
She said, it's now never. I got fighting in my blood.
Speaker 2 (51:28):
Got it
Speaker 3 (51:29):
Started, it, got it
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