April 23, 2025 • 61 mins
Well, this was one of those chats that takes a wild ride... from blind boxing bouts to the blind spots in how we see ourselves and others. We talk about the power of presence, the problem with performative self-help, what real resilience actually is, and why so many of us wait for a crisis to start living with purpose.
We go deep on all things from burnout to boundaries, and why sitting on the fence is underrated, and the importance of actually having hard conversations instead of just venting to your mate and sweeping it all under the rug. What it means to be seen, how our emotions are valid but not always helpful, and how sometimes the 'healing' work is just finally being honest about what’s under the hood.
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TIFFANEE COOK
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
She said, it's now never.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I got fighting in my blood.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
I'm tiff This is role with the punches and we're
turning life's hardest hits into wins. Nobody wants to go
to court, and don't. My friends at test Art Family
Lawyers know that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution.
Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in
(00:29):
all areas of family law to facto and same sex couples,
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reach out to Mark and the team at www dot
test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au. Cray, Anthony Harfer, Tiffany
(00:54):
and Corkierie is Happy Wednesday, sir.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Thanks Bro, Thanks Bryce Sephine. That are you good?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I'm great.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I just had a great sparring session with someone with
two percent vision, So that was that was the highlight
of my day.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
That's not the perfect opponent. How do you walk us
through that a little bit? How does one spa with
somebody who can't see? Do you have bells on your gloves?
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Well, here's the deal, I thought to myself. I haven't
sparred since last years. I've barely picked up the boxing gloves,
to be honest. So I was like, oh, not really,
you know, I haven't been doing it, but yeah, sure,
if there's anyone i'll say yes to. It's a blind guy.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yeah, reason, we'll shout out to our vision impeded listeners.
And if you think just being insensitive, she.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Is, well no, right, I thought, well this, you know,
this can't be too dangerous. I did put a mouthguard
in though, but nothing quite sticks to you like shit
to a blanket. Then one that can't see but has
keen other senses. I could not shake that bugger. It
was right there. In fact, there was only one time
(02:08):
I was quiet enough to sneak around and he was
like like a ninja, going where is she? The rest
of the time He's right that. The rest of the
time you would not if you were watching on you
wouldn't know you were watching one vision impaired person sparring.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I mean, could you try to explain it to us?
I'm trying to figure out how does so he's not
a boxer, right.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
No, no, no, So this is they've got an event
in a couple of weeks it's up in Queensland. It's
a bunch of podcasters actually, and they wanted to find
two blind podcasters to have this fight at this event.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
And that just seems that sunms cruel they.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Could find one, so they've made it even more crazy.
They're putting seven blokes in the ring, six of them
being blindfolded, and Benny, who's two percent vision, and they're
just gonna let him go for gold. So he brings
me up a week ago, goes, I haven't actually done
(03:08):
any sparring. Could you punch me in the face? And
I said sure, sure, think sure. Think he was really good,
actually really good. There's I think that there is a
lot that can be an advantage about not having vision
when you're learning things with your other senses. When you're
like his hair, his gloves are stuck to his face,
(03:30):
he's not getting you know, when our eyes go places,
it affects our balance. Just there's a lot of information
coming in when you're boxing, you're moving, you're watching, you're protecting,
you're feeling things, you're seeing things, depth, perception, all of
that stuff. His head doesn't lift twenty punches because he's
not following his eyes anywhere, So he stays down, he holds.
(03:50):
It's really good. Actually, I was super impressed.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Now, if you're in any way trying to convince the
listeners and I that there's some kind of fucking advance
manage to not being able to see when you're boxing,
you're doing a terrible job because none of us believe you.
That's the worst Bloody sales pitch.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Look, he's got a real advantage because he's got amazing,
you know, senses, you know what's good sense for boxing.
Been able to fucking see the glove coming at you. Fuck,
that's hilarious. Well, good on him, shout out to Benny.
But also I'm thinking, I'm guessing this is not a
sanctioned event. Seven blindfolded or six blindfolded people and a
(04:35):
blind bloke in a ring throwing cut lunches. That just
seems like something from Bloody what's that stupid show where
they all used to do crazy things? You know, all
those guys, you know, there was a whole show Jackass Jacks.
(05:00):
That's just an episode of Jackass.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Well it's going to be doing it in front of
five thousand people in the audience, So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
How they get insurance for that or how they get
that sanction. That just seems like me personally, I'm like,
fuck yeah, let's do that every weekend.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Well, the thing that concerns me the most is the
advantage to wearing punches when you're boxing is you see
them and you learn how to wear them, and you
don't get punched from behind or you see them coming,
so you're absorbing them properly and going to be seven
(05:37):
blokes in the ring. People are going to get punched
in the back of the head. They're going to be
frantically swinging punches and thus wearing them when they can't
be seen, and that's very in my opinion, it's possible
to be quite a bit more dangerous. But I was very.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Impressing about that. Nothing about that. That's a good idea.
It's hilarious, hilarious, But from somebody who studies the brain somewhat,
I can tell you, if you want to make your
brain work worse, just shut your eyes and let people
hit you in the head. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Do you know what's interesting is I was having a
quick chat with him afterwards just about the idea of
people white people are mean, Like he's got two percent visions,
so I was saying to him, I'd give anything to
to come to just pop in to see what you
see for a moment, because I'm curious, but so many
(06:32):
people because he sees dark, so he looked around, he goes,
I can't see the ring. I can't see anything.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
All that's black.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
And then he looked up and there's a high ceiling
with a beam of light that comes in. He goes,
I can see like a lighter line across there. And
then he turned to another wall and he said, and
this over here looks a bit lighter, so he can
see bits of light. And I said, you know, when
I walk in, he's sitting at a table in front
(07:03):
of a computer, tinkering on a laptop. And I'm like, dude,
I'm here to spar the blind guy, like who are you?
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
And the people that get angry and mean because they're like,
you're not blind and get aggressive about it, and it's
isn't that interesting? Human behavior?
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Human? But well, I think that's my life in your life,
isn't it. I mean, yeah, I've been studying it in
one way or another for my entire life. And I'm,
you know, ten minutes away from finishing my whole kitten
kaboodle at Uni. And I still don't fucking know how
humans work, and I still people still, you know, you're
(07:42):
never going to know. Like the human condition is what
makes somebody kind and generous and loving and compassionate to
a stranger that they'll never see again. Like I love that,
And like we have all ends of the spectrum. We
have people that are complete you knows, and psychopaths and
manipulative narcissists to do anything to get anything, and will
(08:06):
lie and cannive and can be charismatic and charming and
full of shit. And then yeah, the people at the
other end and the people in between, and the you know,
it's like it's yeah, I don't think there's an answer
to that question, but I think some people seem to.
(08:27):
You know, what's it called? Ah, there's a there's a
name for it. It's called something like Shathan Freuden or something.
I'll look at it, but it's basically a German word
for this concept that people take delight in other people's pain. Yeah, yeah,
and it's it's it's it's a thing. I only learned
(08:49):
the term the other day and I can't remember it.
I need to. It's funny. I need to use things,
you know, Like when I learned something, I'm like, I've
got to teach that in the next day or two
or three. And then if if I teach it a
few times then it gets him better. Then I pretty
much never forget it, but until it's locked in there.
But yeah, so, well, good for him, and I hope
(09:12):
he comes out without any brain damage. And how is
he doing? The computer thing? By the way, does it
talk to him or something to it? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah, it talks to him.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, so it's basically chat JPT. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Yeah. It just always makes me think when you interact
with people. That always makes me think about everything we
take for granted, which sounds a cliche, but you know,
I jump in the car and I drive home, and
then I think about he had to get a taxi there,
and you get to taxi back, and then I've got
to I'm sending him some photos and he'll never get
to see those photos. He's going to put it on
(09:47):
social media, and like, so he's in this same world
we're living in, and his world is so different. Yes,
And we don't build it, and not just for blind people,
for all sorts of people. We don't build it for
everyone else.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah, it's it's yeah, I don't built for people who
aren't in you know, in inverted commas typical. I guess you.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Know you're really inspired by you know, that's two blind
people I've been involved with now that are doing like
crazy stuff despite their limitation, like we had Ben felt
both Ben's by the way, Ben Felton, who wanted to
be the fastest motor man on a motorcycle and ride
a motorcycle fastest blind man. Sorry, And it's just like,
(10:33):
I think that's so inspiring when people because people like that,
just I think of them often and go, well, if
they can, Yeah, isn't it funny?
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Though? The number of people Tiffany and Cook who have
a disability and or they don't have a disability, then
something happens, then they get a disability, or they acquire
whatever it is, and then all of a sudden they
start doing all this amazing shit when they've actually got
(11:04):
less capacity than they had before the injury or the
accident or the illness, but now they're doing ten times
more than they ever did. And it's not because all
of a sudden they've got more talent or more physical
ability or but it's because they've got a totally different mindset.
And isn't it a pity that so many of us
wait until something fucking diabolical happens before we think, oh, geez,
(11:28):
I wonder what I could do. I wonder how much
progress or what I could achieve if I just fucking
let go of all the bullshit and dive in. And
if I fail, I fail. If I win, If it's painful,
it's painful. If it's good, it's good. But it's like
it seems, and I'm generalizing, but it seems that a
(11:49):
lot of people who end up in a situation that
they didn't choose or want, some of them become almost
fucking superhuman because I don't know why, like the fear
goes or the maybe it's just that we have a
shift or they have a shift in awareness or perspective
and go, oh fucking hell, I'm not here for a
long time. I'm here for a good time. Why don't
I fucking jump in?
Speaker 3 (12:12):
I think I think about that heaps in terms of
all the answers that we're all seeking, Like we're learning
and we're seeking, and we're evolving, and we're trying to
grasp this thing like it's all still, like life is
still and the answers of this thing, and then I'll
(12:33):
apply them. And by the time I apply them, by
the time you start to apply something, you've already changed. Yeah,
I'm notnting the same person with the same circumstances or
emotions or feelings or maybe even values.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, And the thing that is really important to you
when you're let's just say twenty, might be completely irrelevant
when you're thirty, yeah, or when you're forty two year
old Tiff and you go, fuck, you know what I want?
I want this, and then you work your ass off
and you get it and you go, ah, I don't know,
maybe that wasn't it, or maybe or maybe that's nirvana
(13:08):
or you know, it's the old You get to the
top of the mountain and you're like, mah, fuck, I
climbed the wrong mountain or this is good, but oh,
look at that mountain over there. Then you climb that one,
you're like, this is a bit better, but fuck, look
at that. And you know, because I think, like, we
grow up and I know we've spoken about this before,
but we grow up in this kind of model of
thinking that says successes about external things. And so when
(13:32):
you get that thing or change that thing, or own
that thing, or people can see that trophy or see
how many followers Craig's got or Tiff scots or or
you know, Craig's biceps or TIFF's fucking whatever, whatever it is, right,
and then you achieve it or create it or do
it or change it, and then you're like, oh, I'm
(13:52):
still a bit sad. I'm still a bit I've still
got shit self esteem, or I'm still overthinking, or I'm
still i still feel like there's some kind of emotional
and or psychological whole, or I feel disconnected, or and
then I go, oh, maybe it's maybe I need to
be more jacked, or maybe I need a bigger house,
or you know, it's like we have these stories that
(14:15):
these external things are going to create these internal outcomes
that I don't think they generally do.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
I've been thinking about it heaps lately, and I feel
like with a lot of the people I'm around and
having conversations with are in this state of busyness and
a bit burnout. So I'm having a lots of conversations
around that. And because I've made such a massive overdue
(14:45):
effort in stopping that myself, because I'm just a product
of that of working seven days a week for god
knows how many years now seven days, and you know,
always happening to happening that word again, always having to.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Drive it's bad happening, khuf e n happening.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Thanks for drawing my attention to that and never always
said it.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
All words have got to start somewhere, So let's go.
It's twenty twenty five, it's sixteenth of April. Let's push
that motherfucker out of the literary nest and we'll accredit it,
will credit it to you. Tea cook happening. That's now,
it's a thing. Now, it's it. It's a word. It's like,
(15:31):
it's right up there with somethink.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Well, it's a real tazzy word, somethin somethink. Just ask
my friends, just asks, Yeah, just.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Ask my friend about something. And if you don't, it
won't be.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Happening anyway anyway. So I'm really conscious, and I'm really
conscious of the people around me that might still be
having the conversations I was, or you know, wearing the
busy badge or oh it's really busy or stressing or
frantic for a couple of people that have come up
(16:09):
against healthy issues in the middle of that, and watching
how hard it is to still make the choice and
realize that, like to pull yourself out of that, out
of it. I've got to I'm busy. I've got to
make more money, I've got to do more things. I've
got to produce, you know, Like I get it because
(16:30):
I feel in me what drives me towards that. But
there's the experience of something, and then there's the knowledge
of wanting of that not really being a reality, it's
just a story. And then there's the trying to move
yourself to live a little bit differently, and it takes time.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I think it's also part of
it is about getting there's so many facets diss but
getting clear about what you want and what you don't want,
and why you want that thing and why you don't
want that other thing. Right, And I've had a lot
of conversations lately with people about and I know we're
(17:12):
revisiting this old chestnut, but metacognition, you know, thinking about
how I think and how you think and all of
that stuff, like starting to become aware of the so
many people at the moment are so fucking emotional about
what they think about Donald Trump, or what they think
(17:36):
about Anthony Albanuzi, or what they think about the Carnival
diet or what they think. And it's like, I understand
that you don't think like me or agree with me,
or you do agree and you do you know, either
way all good? But do we have to hate everyone
who doesn't think like us? Do we have to call
everyone a fuck with that likes Donald Trump or hates
(17:58):
Donald Trump? Or do we do we have to like
do we need to be so vitriolic and so nasty?
Does it and by the way, does it move the needle?
Does it help? Does it improve anything? Is it creating
good outcomes? Is making people feel better or do better?
Like it's I understand there's always going to be divergence
(18:19):
of opinion and idea and belief in philosophy and behavior,
of course, but it's like, Okay, you're a Muslim, I'm
an atheist, tips a Catholic, old mates, a Buddhist or
whatever whatever it is. Hey, let's all have dinner and
not talk about any of that shit and let's just
hang out like or let you know. It's like, we
(18:40):
don't need to try to convince other people that what
we think is the thing that everybody should think. But
that seems to be a lot of what happens on
in some areas of social media, where it's just people
screaming at each other who all have a different opinion.
(19:01):
You know, I did that. I think I might have
even done it with you that on the Fence episode
a while ago, we're talking about the beauty of like,
you know, people tell you you've got to get off
the fence. I'm like, no, you don't, because what they're
saying is you need to pick a side. Well, fuck
your sides. I don't want to be on a side
because I don't want to be in your group. I
don't want to be in their group. I don't want
(19:21):
to be in a fucking group. I want to just
think for myself and if it happens to align with
what you think or they think, that's cool. But I'm
still not in a group with you, because the problem
is that once we are in these groups, these philosophical, religious, nutritional, political,
sociological groups, whatever, now you're part of the group. Now
(19:42):
you need to align with the group. To stay in
the group, which means you have this drive to belong
and this drive to align. So now you can't be
critical of anything, which means you can't think critically because
you are more interested in staying a member of the
group than actually telling people or actually being true to
(20:02):
your own thinking and ability to critically decide or what
is or isn't for you. Now, there are many things
that I think like, I might be in the middle
of a situation where people are talking about something that
I think is bullshit, and I won't nod my head
and agree with them. But I have enough awareness and
social intelligence to know that if in the middle of
(20:23):
all of this, I go, I think you're all full
of shit. I think you're wrong. This is what I
think is right, and that may be what I'm thinking,
but I'm definitely not going to say that, not because
I'm scared, but because it won't help. It won't change anything.
Nobody's going to go Nobody who thinks something diametrically opposed
(20:44):
to me is going to go, Oh, that's the really
good point, Craig, I am wrong. Thanks for pointing that
out right. It doesn't happen. And by the way, I
don't know that I'm right. I just have a different
opinion to you and this idea that or this, uh
what's the word this in lack of capacity for people
(21:08):
to be able to go Look, I really think this,
but I could be wrong, Like people seem to have
an aversion to no, fuck you and fuck that group
and where it's like, geez, do you not? I get
shit wrong all the time, and I'm and I think
about this stuff a lot, and I'm mildly educated. I'm
mildly I do a lot of research and thinking and exploring,
(21:31):
and I still get half the shit wrong. So why
do you think you couldn't be wrong? And this is
the problem, is that that you get all of these
echo chambers where everyone whatever it is, they think there.
I don't even know if I've answered your question. I've
completely diverted the conversation. I'm aware, But to me, that's
(21:52):
just it's a bit sad. It's a bit sad that
we think we're the smartest species, but we're so fucking
stupid and ignorant so much of the time, and we
do so much that hurts so many people, and we
can't just and I know this sounds naf and I
know it's never going to happen, but imagine if people
were just more concerned with being loving and kind. Doesn't
(22:14):
mean to everyone all the time, but just where you went, like,
I just met with this Should I say? It doesn't matter,
I just I won't say, but I just met with
this person who needed some help. Literally, I came straight.
I left the cafe at twenty two past one, and
you and I were on it half past one. And
(22:35):
at the end it was someone who asked for and
I can't be everything for everyone, so please don't send
me an email. But they said what do I owe you?
And I went nothing, and I'm like, it's all good,
and they they're like, why would you do that? And
I literally go, because I've got some skills and knowledge
that you need and you need help. And they're like,
I do, but but why would you do it for nothing?
(22:56):
And I'm like, it's kind of sad that people blown
away when someone would genuinely just help them where there's
no hook, catch agenda, it's not strategic. And I go because, well, one,
you need the help, and I know I can help
you a little bit and it's my pleasure see you later.
But you know. That's why I've said to you, and
(23:18):
I've said on this show, I'll shut up after this. Like,
if you've got two or three of those people in
your life that are just there for you no matter
what all the time, even when you're being a fucking idiot,
which is going to be regularly because you're a human.
If you've got three people in your life that just
would show up for you and be there for you,
then I think you're doing great. Which sounds kind of pessimistic,
(23:41):
but I just think finding those no matter what, people
who love you inside out, and they'll probably tell you
when you're being a dickhead as well, but that's okay,
Like those people are a gift I love.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
I actually love that idea of being on the fence.
I think I feel like you might have done it
solo on that I don't think I listen to that.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Yeah, I think it's the smartest space to be. Remember
this pulsion that we have. Sorry, i'll shut up after this.
Don't send me an email and know I'm talking too much.
But where we tell people they've got to pick a side,
let me tell you don't. You don't. In fact, there's
probably better to not pick a side.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
I reckon. I've landed there a lot more with in
recent times. Again, I've come back there. I've come back
to the fence in a lot of things and then
just got to the point where go Then when you
sit on the fence, you go, Okay, Now, how much
of my time and energy is warranted by even thinking
about it? You know, it's it's hard, I might just
(24:46):
park that whole thing. Because it's when I first became
old enough to vote, I was always so aware of
so when I'm when I want to learn something, when
I'm interested in something, I kind of I'm really curious.
I want to learn it pretty deeply. And if it's
not in that bucket, it's in that I don't give
a fuck and I won't listen and I'll earn bucket.
(25:09):
When it became old enough to vote, I was like,
I am so aware that the implications of making decisions
are have go far beyond my knowledge, and I don't
think people reflect on that. I don't people think people
think past their immediate circumstances to all of the knock
(25:31):
on effects of the decisions that are made, beyond what
might just sound good or feel good or be good.
For them and their family.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah. Yeah, Well, also when you think back just to
our notion that you started with the being on the fence,
I actually visualize me on a fence and there's hundreds
or thousands of people on one side and thousands on
the other. Now I'm on the fence, see the literally
(26:01):
or metaphorically. I have a perspective that none of them
do because they are all compartmentalized. They're all in this
group or that group. I'm not in your fucking group.
I don't want to be in your group. And I'm
not better and I'm not worse. I'm just not You know,
it might happen that we land on the same beliefs
(26:23):
and that's cool, but there will be other things that
I totally disagree with you on. You know, this is funny.
A couple of days ago, maybe it was yesterday other
day before I had Zoe Daniels on the Oh you
were there, and you know what I found funny I said,
(26:44):
to full disclosure to our listeners, I said to Zoe
before we started, I'm about as political as a moccasin.
So this is not going to be some fucking hard
hitting political interrogation. So breathe easy champ, you know, And
I think she probably went, oh, yeah, sure, and then
it proceeded to me exactly what I said it was
(27:04):
going to be, and it just so happens that she's
a politician and I'm a podcaster and a researcher and
a speaker, and it was two people talking. It wasn't
a political conversation at all. And my perspective was I've
interviewed hardly any politicians, a couple Senator Jackie Lambish right.
(27:30):
But here's what's funny. Three people since have said to
me something like either I'm pretty surprised you interviewed her,
or why would you give her any airtime? And I'm like,
people are funny, aren't they? And I couldn't even I
(27:51):
couldn't even be fucked. I'm like, I didn't want to
go ah, you know, and I'm like cool, you know.
And then someone else tell that, you know, she sent
a message went she's amazing. I love that. A few
other people went oh wow, like I've never heard of her,
she's great. Couple of other people went glad you got
her on, right, but it's so funny that, well, why'd
(28:12):
you get it?
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Well?
Speaker 1 (28:12):
I got her on because She's a human and I
wanted to talk to her, and if she thinks what
I think or doesn't think what I think, or we
have the same or different or whatever, it's all okay.
It's like, I don't want to get a version of
me on the show every day, but just to be
able to have a conversation with somebody. Yeah, a few
people got their nose out of joint because I interviewed her,
(28:35):
and I'm like, Wow, it says way more about you
than her.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
That is just so so interesting, because I think I thought,
I thought to myself, I'd never heard of Zoe Daniel.
And I got to the end of that and I
think I said, to you, she was I really enjoyed that.
She was really nice. But also her work as a
foreign correspondent and the stuff she's done in her life
makes it to me makes her really interesting. Yes, And
(28:59):
I'm kind of really interested in what sort of a
human it takes to want to be in the political
space at all, like whether she's on which side of
the fucking fence or fences?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
She said, Oh, I'm with you. I I have zero
interest in a politician. I think it's the worst. I
think it's the worst fucking job of all time. You
know it's I think, fuck that. But anyway, but yeah,
it was. I was a little bit surprised and one
(29:33):
person that I know quite well and it was like,
though I didn't say, but they pretty much said, I'm
disappointed in you. I'm like, oh, fuck, I can't tell
you how many fucks I do not give about your disappointment.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
But anyway, selling you didn't mention anything about which party
she was representing or anything at all.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
I don't know, did you. It was just that I feel, Yeah,
it was just that I had her on It was disappointing.
Oh I'm sorry. Fuck I should have wrung you and
got your seal of approval. How thoughtless of me to
to somebody that didn't get your tickh And to that listener,
shout out to you, you know who you are.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
It is a reminder that no matter what we're doing,
which often people are trying to, especially in today's world
where everything's everyone's got a profile and a voice of
some sort, and we want to appeal to everyone, and
you just can't. It can't kill everyone. It's like, Okay,
I have to make my decisions on what I think
(30:33):
and how I think and what I believe in, and
those and the people who who resonate with my style
of thinking will will come to me or speak to
me and talk to me, and we will have this
understanding that for us, that is, that is what works.
And then there will be a whole bunch of other
people that it's like, that's that's not going to be
(30:56):
for you. That's there's gonna be different path, there's gonna
be different resources.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Yeah, and I think that I'm going to say something
that will get more nose out of joint. Fuck it.
I think when people do everything that they can to
be popular, it's a sign of weakness, not integrity. Yeah, right,
I think, fuck you just say what you you know.
Of course, we need to exercise wisdom and you know,
(31:21):
not be overly insensitive to anyone. I get all of that,
But don't say shit that you don't believe because you
think that's going to make you popular. And there's so
much fucking insincere, superficial self help, fucking I want to
spew in my own mouth crap right that people wheel
(31:43):
out regularly because they want people to love them, like them,
approve of them. Might do just say what you really think,
you know, be be aware and sensitive and if it's
if it's just going to be highly offensive, and then
then don't. But but but you know, if you think
something's shit, that's okay, and if you're wrong, that's okay,
and if you're right, that's okay. But yeah, I think that,
(32:08):
you know, I think that the reason that this show
has done okay is, you know, and it's not the
high watermark for shows, and it's not the ABC and
it's not Joe Rogan and it's not you know whatever,
but we do all right because I think the conversations
are real and raw and clunky and lumpy, and you know,
we get stuff right, we get stuff wrong. We have
(32:28):
interesting chats with interesting people. And I think that, you know,
like you and me are both fucking horrible at selling ourselves, right,
You're not.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
Always sell them myself, bro, look at me.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, you're You're not bad with You're not bad with
the posts and the but in terms of like, you know,
my new mentoring program, right, I get uncomfortable even to go, hey,
I'm running a mentoring program blah blah blah, which I
should do every single episode, and every episode I forget
to do it. But I think that I get that,
(33:04):
you know, people have got to sell stuff. By the way,
there's nothing wrong with people selling themselves and programs and
products and stuff. But I think in the middle of
your program, your product, your mentoring group, whatever the fuck
it is, just don't say shit about it that it
isn't true, you know. And if one more self help
person promotes themselves as the dude or the girl who
(33:29):
changes lives, I'm like, I'm going to spew in my
mouth again. I'm like, don't you don't change lives. You
just share thoughts and ideas that aren't yours anyway. Like
you didn't invent psychology, you didn't invent human behavior. You know,
you and I for the most part, other than stories
that are unique to us, I am not sharing any
(33:52):
information that has never been revealed to the world. But
in terms of knowledge of human behavior, psychology, physiology, sociology,
how humans work and think and behave and interact and operate,
there's nothing new. But everyone wants to think that they're
the genius that's tapped into the secret of fucking human existence,
(34:12):
and it's just not true. We're all just different fucking
people navigating the human experience In our own way falling down,
fucking up, getting up, and some people are going to
resonate with Craig Harper or Tif Cook and some are not.
And some are going to think I'm a prick, and
some are going to think I'm a fucking big, lovable
fuck with and whatever. You know. But it's and it's
(34:34):
all okay. But let's just not pretend we're something that
we're not.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Yeah, yesterday, yesterday, yesterday I caught up with doctor Bill
God bless him, have my therapy session. It was great.
And the last portion we got to talking, I was
talking about the program program I'm doing and speaking and
at the moment there's a lot of pulling out all
of my ideas and thoughts and the stuff I care
(35:01):
about and like looking under the hood of what it
means and why it has meaning to me and how
to really get absolute clarity on that so that I
know that what I'm talking about is landing with all
the people the way that I actually intended to, which
I'm loving. I'm loving the process. But I was talking
to him about some of my ideas on resilience, and
(35:24):
what I loved was he was We had this great
conversation so he's done. Like he's in his seventies, he's
been a speaker, he's an academic, he's a professor. Now
he's doing you know, he's kind of doing less of
that and more just one on one and living his life,
dealing trying to keep me on track with mine.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
We are a fucking full time project.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
But I love talking to him because he's real and
honest and he goes, oh, like, so we were unpacking
what is resilience, what isn't resilience? What's the psychological definition
of resilience? And I love that. I love doing that
with different people because I'm like, oh, this for me,
this is gold. I'm sitting here with a psychotherapist that's
worked in drug an alcohol rehabilitation, that's worked across the world,
(36:07):
that's been a professor and an academic, and he's saying
to me, yeah, I'm not sure I'm going to go
and do some research on resilience. Now. I think I
like the way you're thinking of that. Yeah, it's cool,
like we go and learn things. We go and to
do courses to do learning. But I am more interested
(36:28):
in learning from from the inside and from other peoples
and from perspectives and experiences and going what what does
this mean for all of the different but not just
what has somebody written and convinced other people what's just
sounded good enough to get in a psychology book, But
what has today's world real practical in the stuff that
(36:52):
in the type of people that come to speak to
Tiff Cook. Those people they're going to have a certain
with certain demographic or they'll have a certain backstory, they'll
have some reason to relate to me. So how do
I talk about resilience and encourage resilience and explore resilience
(37:13):
with them as opposed to handing them to DSM and
going resilience says ye, resilience is a cold shower.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
He's yeah, yeah, Hey try harder, Brian, Hey, Sally, It'll
be alright. Stiff up a lip. Do you know what's
interesting about that? On Doc Telly her Pep Soldier on
you'll be right good on Doctor Bill for being that
(37:45):
humble and aware to go fuck not really sure, but
what is here's a thing that I've learned without trying
to sound like a dick, because I've already said I'm
the world's worst academic. But here's something that I've learned
that I never thought I would learn doing my power.
So when I started November one, twenty nineteen, one of
the first because my PhD is essentially in the area
(38:07):
of self awareness, understanding others and self and da da da,
And well, what am I going to do is I'm
going to start with just clearly defining self awareness. Let's
start there. Well, there's no definition. There's thirty two definitions,
there's one hundred, and there's three hundred and thirty. So
you know, like even with resilience, there's what we call convergence.
(38:28):
There's no convergence of definition, and so it just means, oh,
there is no like with my research, specifically, meta accuracy
and metaperception. I started with because one of the things
that I was looking at, one of the myriad of
things I'm looking at in one of my papers, which
is called a systematic literature review of the way essentially
(38:50):
that meta accuracy is measured. So, in other words, how
good am I in terms of like at understanding how
other people see me? Howcurate am I? So I started
with twelve hundred papers that met my search criteria in
these academic search engines. Twelve hundred papers. Tiffany in ended
(39:10):
up with one hundred and ten papers, and of the
one hundred and ten papers that formed this fucking gigantic
table that me and my research team have created, and
that form that was the starting point for this, which
is what currently is a seventy two page academic paper
on blah blah blah. Right, here's the thing. Even with
(39:32):
that very specific thing, metaaccuracy, there's no unifying definition. So
the funny thing is you think, oh, like, if you're
not like, you're a I would call you a like
a casual researcher, Like you're not an academic researcher, but
you do research right in your own way, using your
own tools and resource sources. But you think, oh, let
(39:54):
me get the actual definition. Well, there is no especially
in psychology. And as I mean, and this is I've
said this before, I have a love hate relationship with
psychology because human behavior is fucking fascinating. I do endeavor
to understand it first, you know, seek first to understand right,
and then to be understood. But then we know that
(40:20):
it's from from a straight science point of view. You
and I can run the same test on the same
person four days in a row. From a psychometric evaluation
point of view, and we're going to get four different
sets of data, you know what I mean. So it's
not because it's not consistent. Whereas you know, if we
(40:42):
do the same test in physics, we're going to get
the same result. You know, if I drop my phone
right now to the floor, it's going to fall to
the floor at nine point eight one meters per second,
because that's how fast things fall, give or take, and
it's going to hit the floor one hundred times out
of one hundred. Right. So in certain science it's very reliable,
it's very predictable, it's very consistent. The problem with psychology
(41:06):
is humans are not static. Humans are dynamic emotionally, psychologically, sociologically, physiologically,
not even to the point where you could do an
IQ test at eight o'clock in the morning and you'll
score ten points higher than you do at eight o'clock
in the evening, but you're the same person. But then
what we do is we go, oh, unequivocally, TIFF's IQ
(41:29):
is one seventeen, Well, no, it's actually one twenty seven
in the morning or one ninety seven doesn't matter, or no,
Craig is Craig's got this, or Craig's got that. Well,
if you tested him on a different day, you might
find out he doesn't have that. So it's a you know,
the whole world of psychological research and defining things like
(41:51):
resilience or self awareness. It's a very kind of dynamic landscape.
It's not as hard and fast as people see.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Th I wrote down when you were talking about that,
I wrote down self understanding, behavior, priming, and manipulation. And
because I was thinking of things so with an interaction
with a person, all of those things are happening beneath
the surface, and we all have different levels of self fantasy.
How much do I understand myself? And then I was
(42:22):
thinking of back when I first started working with you,
and you know, like I would remember that time you
were like, sometimes I feel like you are pissed off
or example, I was like, sometimes I am harps and
I haven't figured it out yet, and I know it's
there were so many times when I was like, what,
(42:44):
I have this emotional reaction and I don't know what's
me and what's real. I don't know what's Craig and
what's my shit that I'm just unaware of. And I
know that there were times at first, where was like
I'd be in the fucking zoom room waiting and excited
as fuck, and you'd slide in straight from another meeting
right on time to start, and they'd be like, doesn't
(43:05):
me give a fuck because people that are late with me.
I had a thing about it, and whether or not
I know the reality of it, that meant that something
switched inside me, and whether I liked it or not,
I was a bit fucking bottom lip out, sad and
maybe a bit angry and pissed off. And I'm like,
it's such a fucking asshole. He doesn't even want to
say hi to me first. He just comes in and
(43:25):
then I'll just fucking go and edit the pod. You know,
it was like, but when I'd leave that and go,
you know that's not reality, but it would still happen.
So we have all of this stuff. So that's hard
to measure in psychology when you go, okay, we'll let's
set up all these ways to measure meta accuracy. But
even my experience of interactions with people in the moment
(43:49):
and then walking away later and processing a different understanding
of them because I'm not dissociated like I've had times
where I accommodate and say yes to everything, because that
was a thing that it was a coping mechanism that
happened from being a kid and being needed unwanted and
abandonment and all the things. And then I got older
(44:10):
and I got to a point where I was like,
I do that. I need to learn to say? Can
I think about it? Because I keep getting a day
later and going fuck, what the hell did I say
yes to that? What do I always say yes to that person?
I don't even want to do that. That's not good
for me. Yeah, So yeah, I think with those self evaluations,
(44:30):
you're measuring stuff in one moment that and people's levels
of self knowledge and understanding are changing all the time.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
So what is really good about what you just said
is all of that's true? And it's funny because people
would think that and you and I have never really
had a problem. But there's been a few lumps and
bumps here and there, but nothing bad or relationship threatening
or But the truth is that, well, one, I can
be difficult, that's absolutely true. Two, you can be difficult,
(45:01):
that's absolutely true. You like no, but this is what
we've got to like, do I ever get off and
think fucking tiff. No, I don't think that. I would
more likely to think are fucking me? I'm more likely
to think that, right. But the thing is that whatever
is going on between you and whoever, you and me,
(45:23):
you and your mum, you and your client, you are
only ever capable of analyzing it subjectively. Yeah, because you
you, you're you, so you're looking at it through the through
your bias the people that did this to you or
didn't do that to you, and your beliefs, and you're
you could be in a shitty mood because you're twenty
(45:44):
three percent angry and whatever. Right now. I could do
the exact same thing on a different day, your response
would be very different because on that day you're very
different or you're somewhat different. But what is good about
all of this and this is this is beautiful what's
going on right now, because this is how people need
(46:06):
to talk. I think about. Look, you did this and
I got pissed off. Maybe it was you, maybe it
was me, Maybe it was a bit of both of us.
I'm not sure. But this is how we have real
relationships and real conversations and with our friends and with
our colleagues and with our family. About what is really
(46:26):
going on or you know, and it's not like I
felt this. You made me feel. No, you didn't make
me do anything. This happened, and as a result, this
is how I felt. Now. I don't know how much
of that is you, how much of that is me.
It's probably all me. But my response was, but once
I got over myself and I went and you know,
distilled it and thought about it a little bit, I
(46:46):
realized it was many me or but and there been
times with you where I have thought about things and
I've come back and I've said to you, Okay, this
is how I'm feeling, saying you're doing anything wrong, but
I would tell you one So, for example, this is
something that you and I have spoken about a bit,
(47:06):
and I'll share with the listeners one hundred percent of transparency.
I have had a very long history of people being
my best friend as long as I'm useful to them.
You and I have had that chat, right, and so
I'm a bit wary of people who are all love
and light and Jesus and unicorns to me. Oh, harp
sure this, harp sure that, and ha ha ha ha,
(47:27):
and we're all bestie buddies. And then my used by
date runs out. Now I can't help them anymore, or
open any more doors for them, or introduce them to
any more people, or give them any more professional leg ups.
I've done everything I can do for them. Then they
stop reaching out. I'm like, oh, oh, that wasn't a
friend at all, right, And I've shared that with you,
(47:50):
and obviously you're not one of those people. But so
that for me where I'm I'm in terms of opening
the door me opening the door like the Craig door,
the fucking just to my heart to where I care
about people. You know, I don't open that door that often.
But at the same time, I feel compelled to help
(48:12):
and serve people, but I expect very little back, you know.
But you and I have spoken about that, and you
did a couple of things which you weren't actually doing
anything wrong, but because of my history, I got upset,
not upset, but probably I got a little bit oh
(48:33):
oh oh fuck no, no, I'm not here again, am I?
And but then you know, when we understand more, then
we connect more, then we go oh like, that's why
I say to people, And I know we bang on
it about a lot, but you know, theory of mind
(48:53):
is understanding how others think. Well, fuck, let's try that,
you know, And because I am understand you pretty well,
not completely, not totally, and not flawlessly, but I understand
you pretty well after whatever six years or whatever it is,
and so I have a pretty good idea of how
to build rapport and connection and trust with you and
(49:16):
have a conversation with you, and you know, like, what's
the word, have the most kind of healthy relationship we
can have without that sounding strategic. But at the same time,
here's an interesting thing. People think that a strategic relationship
(49:38):
is bad. Well, it's only bad if you're pretending it's
not strategic. So I think, like, for example, I love
my mum and dad unconditionally, but I need to be
strategic about how I talk to my dad, because if
I need to be thoughtful about where I go and
(50:00):
where I don't go conversationally, and if I don't have
some kind of ron strategy, not that it's insincere or fake,
but there's going to be a shitfest every time I
see him, because we don't see either eye on some things.
But my strategy in inverted commas is that every time
I see my dad it's good. I'm not going to
say anything that's going to ruffle feathers. I'm not going
(50:22):
to you know, I'm not necessarily going to agree with
everything either. But my strategy is that seeing dad for
him and for me and for mom is a good experience. Right,
So I think in that way we can be strategic.
You go into a meeting, do you have a strategy, yew,
I want to create a good outcome. Well, that's a
good that's a good intention. But we're talking about those
(50:44):
kind of hidden strategies and agendas where you're pretending that
it's one thing, but actually underneath there's an agenda that
you're not being open about.
Speaker 3 (50:53):
And people don't tend to actively plan or or deconstruct
this stuff after the moment. So we have interactions, people
piss us off, and then we go and we vent
because there's tensions. So we have a vent to someone
this person always says this, and then that dissipates, and
(51:16):
then we let it go and it continues it to cycle.
We never go like the step is, well, okay, I'm
going to react, Like our emotions don't lie. If we
emotionally react to somebody's treatment, well that's happening, and if
it's keeping on keeping, if it's happening, if it's keeping
on happening, well.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
Welcome back to English with tiff lesson for.
Speaker 3 (51:43):
But if it's going to continue to happen, you have
to address it right. So you can't. You can't just
wrestle your emotions. If something is making them react, so
they're happening. That's the truth. It's your job to go, Okay,
how do I address this situation? What conversation do I
need to have? How do I manage my emotions next
time they rise in the moment? And then how do
(52:06):
I express that to someone? You did it to me
in the beginning when I'd made a joke about something
and you rang me up and said, I know, I'm
pretty sure you were just joke. You were having a joke,
but that topic you joked about, you said, that's one
that's not a good topic for me to feed a
joke about. So and I remember that I talk about that.
You're doing that a lot. Because that was a lesson
(52:28):
for me, I went like, I got goosebumps. Now. I
was like, I never want someone to feel hurt by
something i'm joking. Like, if I know that now, so
I learned. So it's but we don't want to do
that because it's scary, because it's confronting, because it's a
difficult conversation. But it's like, well, it's either that or
you'll continue having the emotional disruption and then you'll fracture
(52:50):
the relationship and the other person will be a fuck
and when they're probably really not, it's just not being communicated.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
There's another part to that, which is when you said
the emotions are real, it's true, they are real, of course,
but then the question is are they helpful or is
the emotional response disproportionate to the stimulus, Like is my
emotional reaction kind of appropriate? You know? It's like you
(53:21):
might go, I don't know, you might say something offhand,
a little whatever, and you're not at all, and then
I lose my shit. Well that's true, I lost my shit.
I'm angry. That's true, but it's inappropriate. So there's that
we do need to acknowledge our emotions, but we also
need to be curious about them, because some of our
emotions serve us and some of us fucking sabotage us.
(53:44):
So it's true to say, yes, this emotion is real,
and I don't want to deny it, but it doesn't
mean it's right.
Speaker 3 (53:52):
Yeah, and just because you're having conversation with someone about
it doesn't mean that they have to change it. Might
you might just be saying, hey, when this happens, this
happens for me. I realize that's not a youth thing.
But I just want you to know so that you
understand what might be happening for me in that moment.
(54:13):
And I'm working on that. But that can be a resolve.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
But we.
Speaker 3 (54:17):
Brush things under the carpet and it doesn't fix anything.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
I feel like you and I right now are in
the middle of a dual therapy session for each other,
and I definitely am.
Speaker 3 (54:27):
I'm just trying to get some of that shit out
from under my car. But I've been sweeping under there
for forty years.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
It is It is really interesting. It is interesting how
how we think outwardly and how we think inwardly, and
you know, the stuff that we're happy to share and
the stuff that we're you know, because we're always are
we always I think we're kind of always worried about
(54:54):
how people see us. So because of that, or at
least aware of how people says, which is not a
terrible thing, of course. So I think there's you know,
it's like I said to Zoey Daniel the other day,
zoe Daniels the other day about like, at the same time,
she wants to be this real and raw and authentic
human as we all do, but also she's got this
(55:18):
brand and this persona, and she's a politician and she's
in federal government and she's you know, it's like, how
do you manage that? Because like it or not, there
is a persona that doesn't mean you're being fake or fraudulent,
but also underneath that is a real person. And this
is the this is the line that we walk, especially
(55:40):
when you and I are not famous and we're no
big deal, but we have a little tiny voice in,
you know, in that we do these these things that
we do these podcasts, and people listen to us, and like,
you want to be like you simultaneously want to be
liked and respected and loved and all of those things
because you're human, but also you want people to know
(56:02):
you really, you know, like know me like I'm not
like I'm I'm hopefully like I'm not the guy that's
just trying to scam you or sell you shit or
you know, I know I'm not that guy, but you can't.
Like if you say that, then you sound like an idiot.
But then if you you know, and in the middle
(56:22):
of all of this, you know, then somebody will send me, Oh,
I bet you're not doing those fucking corporate gigs for free. Well, no,
I actually need to have a job, So that is
my job. Is that alright with you? Like? What are you?
You're a plumber? Do you do you clean poo out
of pipes for free? Or do you charge? You know?
(56:43):
It's like, what do you want me to do? It's
like I've done nearly two thousand podcasts for free. I've
written fucking a trillion post giving free advice and inspiration
and education for free. I do a lot of shit,
you know. It's like I can't do everything for free
because I've got to eat, I've got to pay bills.
So but what I do do, based on my values
(57:05):
and my internal sat nab is I pretty much do
as much free stuff as I can, you know. And
but beyond that, I just start to fuck up my
own life, you know. So it doesn't need to be
one or the other. And I've said this to people before.
I can go in and do a whole day with
NAB and charge them a fucking fortune because and I
(57:29):
never say this, but one I'm good at it, and
two they can afford it. And bibbity bobbity booth, thanks
for the dough and they say, thanks, Harps, you were great.
We're all happy. But then I can go and you know,
do something else where. It's just that gift of giving
and it's beautiful and I'm not only am I okay
with it, it's important to me.
Speaker 3 (57:50):
Me also when the right people are open to that. Okay,
NAB spending that money anyway, NAB buying someone to do
that job. So I want to not have a person
that's going to make a difference.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
Yeah yeah, And well you know, you try to. And
you think I did that gig last week? Was it
last week? For I think I told you women in print,
shout out to the women in print, that was so good.
Speaker 3 (58:15):
That was me for a long time.
Speaker 1 (58:18):
Well what do you mean, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's true. And they were ace And like you know,
I mean, I just get up there and I talk.
There's no PowerPoint, there's no I don't half the time,
like I might have one page with some dot points
or not. It usually stays in my pocket. And anyway,
I just talk. And at the end of it, you know,
(58:39):
everyone's like, the feedback was good. Everyone enjoyed it. And
I said, you know, did you enjoy that? Yep? Was
it relevant? Yeah, you know your bits inspired? Yep, that's cool.
And I go, look, I'm really glad you liked it,
and I'm glad you liked me because I'm wildly insecure.
So thank you for liking me and giving me approval.
But here's what I want to tell you. Actual matters
(59:01):
me turning up and talking to you for an hour. Really,
that's me doing a job, and I get money and
I do my thing. But what I really care about
is what you do next. And I said, so, I've
just given you an hour of feared. Life's not a theory.
And I hope that the feedback's good, and I hope
people go, oh, that Craig Harper guy was good and
(59:21):
the whole morning was great, and the Brecky was nice
and the host you know, and it's all it's a
good experience and that's great. But really what matters is
what you do over the next week to five, ten
twenty weeks, and a few people came up and said
to me later, thank you for saying that stuff at
the end, And I said, well, that's the stuff that
moves the needle. If I tell great stories and I'm
(59:44):
funny and inspiring and then everybody forgets what I've said
ten minutes after it's done. Well, you can't apply what
you can't remember, and if you don't apply it, you
can't create change. So I want to really impress Yes,
me turning up doing my job. I'm glad you enjoyed it,
but that's not important. I'm not important. Even what I
said is not important unless you can operationalize that to
(01:00:07):
create some kind of shift on planet you, which is
why we do personal and professional development, so that we
might help people create some kind of shift.
Speaker 3 (01:00:19):
Hm.
Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
I feel like we're done. Are we done? We just
hit the the conversational finish line? Did I see your
chin touch the tape?
Speaker 3 (01:00:29):
We've we've just flown past the jack and flag.
Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
You're like the You're like the gout gout of conversations.
I was doing great, I was doing great, and you
just fucking blew by me. And yeah, what's your word again?
Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
That slipped me happening, happening.
Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
You just happened right past me.
Speaker 3 (01:00:57):
I'm going to copyright that word happening.
Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
I think I don't know who's hosting today, you or me.
I think you started, but so you can sign off
for us.
Speaker 3 (01:01:06):
Thanks everyone, Thanks Harts
Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
Thanks Tiff, she said, it's now never I got fighting
in my blood
She said, it's now never.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I got fighting in my blood.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
I'm tiff This is role with the punches and we're
turning life's hardest hits into wins. Nobody wants to go
to court, and don't. My friends at test Art Family
Lawyers know that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution.
Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in
(00:29):
all areas of family law to facto and same sex couples,
custody and children, family violence and intervention orders, property settlements
and financial agreements. Test Art is in your corner, so
reach out to Mark and the team at www dot
test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au. Cray, Anthony Harfer, Tiffany
(00:54):
and Corkierie is Happy Wednesday, sir.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Thanks Bro, Thanks Bryce Sephine. That are you good?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I'm great.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I just had a great sparring session with someone with
two percent vision, So that was that was the highlight
of my day.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
That's not the perfect opponent. How do you walk us
through that a little bit? How does one spa with
somebody who can't see? Do you have bells on your gloves?
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Well, here's the deal, I thought to myself. I haven't
sparred since last years. I've barely picked up the boxing gloves,
to be honest. So I was like, oh, not really,
you know, I haven't been doing it, but yeah, sure,
if there's anyone i'll say yes to. It's a blind guy.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yeah, reason, we'll shout out to our vision impeded listeners.
And if you think just being insensitive, she.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Is, well no, right, I thought, well this, you know,
this can't be too dangerous. I did put a mouthguard
in though, but nothing quite sticks to you like shit
to a blanket. Then one that can't see but has
keen other senses. I could not shake that bugger. It
was right there. In fact, there was only one time
(02:08):
I was quiet enough to sneak around and he was
like like a ninja, going where is she? The rest
of the time He's right that. The rest of the
time you would not if you were watching on you
wouldn't know you were watching one vision impaired person sparring.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I mean, could you try to explain it to us?
I'm trying to figure out how does so he's not
a boxer, right.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
No, no, no, So this is they've got an event
in a couple of weeks it's up in Queensland. It's
a bunch of podcasters actually, and they wanted to find
two blind podcasters to have this fight at this event.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
And that just seems that sunms cruel they.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Could find one, so they've made it even more crazy.
They're putting seven blokes in the ring, six of them
being blindfolded, and Benny, who's two percent vision, and they're
just gonna let him go for gold. So he brings
me up a week ago, goes, I haven't actually done
(03:08):
any sparring. Could you punch me in the face? And
I said sure, sure, think sure. Think he was really good,
actually really good. There's I think that there is a
lot that can be an advantage about not having vision
when you're learning things with your other senses. When you're
like his hair, his gloves are stuck to his face,
(03:30):
he's not getting you know, when our eyes go places,
it affects our balance. Just there's a lot of information
coming in when you're boxing, you're moving, you're watching, you're protecting,
you're feeling things, you're seeing things, depth, perception, all of
that stuff. His head doesn't lift twenty punches because he's
not following his eyes anywhere, So he stays down, he holds.
(03:50):
It's really good. Actually, I was super impressed.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Now, if you're in any way trying to convince the
listeners and I that there's some kind of fucking advance
manage to not being able to see when you're boxing,
you're doing a terrible job because none of us believe you.
That's the worst Bloody sales pitch.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Look, he's got a real advantage because he's got amazing,
you know, senses, you know what's good sense for boxing.
Been able to fucking see the glove coming at you. Fuck,
that's hilarious. Well, good on him, shout out to Benny.
But also I'm thinking, I'm guessing this is not a
sanctioned event. Seven blindfolded or six blindfolded people and a
(04:35):
blind bloke in a ring throwing cut lunches. That just
seems like something from Bloody what's that stupid show where
they all used to do crazy things? You know, all
those guys, you know, there was a whole show Jackass Jacks.
(05:00):
That's just an episode of Jackass.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Well it's going to be doing it in front of
five thousand people in the audience, So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
How they get insurance for that or how they get
that sanction. That just seems like me personally, I'm like,
fuck yeah, let's do that every weekend.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Well, the thing that concerns me the most is the
advantage to wearing punches when you're boxing is you see
them and you learn how to wear them, and you
don't get punched from behind or you see them coming,
so you're absorbing them properly and going to be seven
(05:37):
blokes in the ring. People are going to get punched
in the back of the head. They're going to be
frantically swinging punches and thus wearing them when they can't
be seen, and that's very in my opinion, it's possible
to be quite a bit more dangerous. But I was very.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Impressing about that. Nothing about that. That's a good idea.
It's hilarious, hilarious, But from somebody who studies the brain somewhat,
I can tell you, if you want to make your
brain work worse, just shut your eyes and let people
hit you in the head. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Do you know what's interesting is I was having a
quick chat with him afterwards just about the idea of
people white people are mean, Like he's got two percent visions,
so I was saying to him, I'd give anything to
to come to just pop in to see what you
see for a moment, because I'm curious, but so many
(06:32):
people because he sees dark, so he looked around, he goes,
I can't see the ring. I can't see anything.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
All that's black.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
And then he looked up and there's a high ceiling
with a beam of light that comes in. He goes,
I can see like a lighter line across there. And
then he turned to another wall and he said, and
this over here looks a bit lighter, so he can
see bits of light. And I said, you know, when
I walk in, he's sitting at a table in front
(07:03):
of a computer, tinkering on a laptop. And I'm like, dude,
I'm here to spar the blind guy, like who are you?
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
And the people that get angry and mean because they're like,
you're not blind and get aggressive about it, and it's
isn't that interesting? Human behavior?
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Human? But well, I think that's my life in your life,
isn't it. I mean, yeah, I've been studying it in
one way or another for my entire life. And I'm,
you know, ten minutes away from finishing my whole kitten
kaboodle at Uni. And I still don't fucking know how
humans work, and I still people still, you know, you're
(07:42):
never going to know. Like the human condition is what
makes somebody kind and generous and loving and compassionate to
a stranger that they'll never see again. Like I love that,
And like we have all ends of the spectrum. We
have people that are complete you knows, and psychopaths and
manipulative narcissists to do anything to get anything, and will
(08:06):
lie and cannive and can be charismatic and charming and
full of shit. And then yeah, the people at the
other end and the people in between, and the you know,
it's like it's yeah, I don't think there's an answer
to that question, but I think some people seem to.
(08:27):
You know, what's it called? Ah, there's a there's a
name for it. It's called something like Shathan Freuden or something.
I'll look at it, but it's basically a German word
for this concept that people take delight in other people's pain. Yeah, yeah,
and it's it's it's it's a thing. I only learned
(08:49):
the term the other day and I can't remember it.
I need to. It's funny. I need to use things,
you know, Like when I learned something, I'm like, I've
got to teach that in the next day or two
or three. And then if if I teach it a
few times then it gets him better. Then I pretty
much never forget it, but until it's locked in there.
But yeah, so, well, good for him, and I hope
(09:12):
he comes out without any brain damage. And how is
he doing? The computer thing? By the way, does it
talk to him or something to it? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah, it talks to him.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, so it's basically chat JPT. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Yeah. It just always makes me think when you interact
with people. That always makes me think about everything we
take for granted, which sounds a cliche, but you know,
I jump in the car and I drive home, and
then I think about he had to get a taxi there,
and you get to taxi back, and then I've got
to I'm sending him some photos and he'll never get
to see those photos. He's going to put it on
(09:47):
social media, and like, so he's in this same world
we're living in, and his world is so different. Yes,
And we don't build it, and not just for blind people,
for all sorts of people. We don't build it for
everyone else.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah, it's it's yeah, I don't built for people who
aren't in you know, in inverted commas typical. I guess you.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Know you're really inspired by you know, that's two blind
people I've been involved with now that are doing like
crazy stuff despite their limitation, like we had Ben felt
both Ben's by the way, Ben Felton, who wanted to
be the fastest motor man on a motorcycle and ride
a motorcycle fastest blind man. Sorry, And it's just like,
(10:33):
I think that's so inspiring when people because people like that,
just I think of them often and go, well, if
they can, Yeah, isn't it funny?
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Though? The number of people Tiffany and Cook who have
a disability and or they don't have a disability, then
something happens, then they get a disability, or they acquire
whatever it is, and then all of a sudden they
start doing all this amazing shit when they've actually got
(11:04):
less capacity than they had before the injury or the
accident or the illness, but now they're doing ten times
more than they ever did. And it's not because all
of a sudden they've got more talent or more physical
ability or but it's because they've got a totally different mindset.
And isn't it a pity that so many of us
wait until something fucking diabolical happens before we think, oh, geez,
(11:28):
I wonder what I could do. I wonder how much
progress or what I could achieve if I just fucking
let go of all the bullshit and dive in. And
if I fail, I fail. If I win, If it's painful,
it's painful. If it's good, it's good. But it's like
it seems, and I'm generalizing, but it seems that a
(11:49):
lot of people who end up in a situation that
they didn't choose or want, some of them become almost
fucking superhuman because I don't know why, like the fear
goes or the maybe it's just that we have a
shift or they have a shift in awareness or perspective
and go, oh fucking hell, I'm not here for a
long time. I'm here for a good time. Why don't
I fucking jump in?
Speaker 3 (12:12):
I think I think about that heaps in terms of
all the answers that we're all seeking, Like we're learning
and we're seeking, and we're evolving, and we're trying to
grasp this thing like it's all still, like life is
still and the answers of this thing, and then I'll
(12:33):
apply them. And by the time I apply them, by
the time you start to apply something, you've already changed. Yeah,
I'm notnting the same person with the same circumstances or
emotions or feelings or maybe even values.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, And the thing that is really important to you
when you're let's just say twenty, might be completely irrelevant
when you're thirty, yeah, or when you're forty two year
old Tiff and you go, fuck, you know what I want?
I want this, and then you work your ass off
and you get it and you go, ah, I don't know,
maybe that wasn't it, or maybe or maybe that's nirvana
(13:08):
or you know, it's the old You get to the
top of the mountain and you're like, mah, fuck, I
climbed the wrong mountain or this is good, but oh,
look at that mountain over there. Then you climb that one,
you're like, this is a bit better, but fuck, look
at that. And you know, because I think, like, we
grow up and I know we've spoken about this before,
but we grow up in this kind of model of
thinking that says successes about external things. And so when
(13:32):
you get that thing or change that thing, or own
that thing, or people can see that trophy or see
how many followers Craig's got or Tiff scots or or
you know, Craig's biceps or TIFF's fucking whatever, whatever it is, right,
and then you achieve it or create it or do
it or change it, and then you're like, oh, I'm
(13:52):
still a bit sad. I'm still a bit I've still
got shit self esteem, or I'm still overthinking, or I'm
still i still feel like there's some kind of emotional
and or psychological whole, or I feel disconnected, or and
then I go, oh, maybe it's maybe I need to
be more jacked, or maybe I need a bigger house,
or you know, it's like we have these stories that
(14:15):
these external things are going to create these internal outcomes
that I don't think they generally do.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
I've been thinking about it heaps lately, and I feel
like with a lot of the people I'm around and
having conversations with are in this state of busyness and
a bit burnout. So I'm having a lots of conversations
around that. And because I've made such a massive overdue
(14:45):
effort in stopping that myself, because I'm just a product
of that of working seven days a week for god
knows how many years now seven days, and you know,
always happening to happening that word again, always having to.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Drive it's bad happening, khuf e n happening.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Thanks for drawing my attention to that and never always
said it.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
All words have got to start somewhere, So let's go.
It's twenty twenty five, it's sixteenth of April. Let's push
that motherfucker out of the literary nest and we'll accredit it,
will credit it to you. Tea cook happening. That's now,
it's a thing. Now, it's it. It's a word. It's like,
(15:31):
it's right up there with somethink.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Well, it's a real tazzy word, somethin somethink. Just ask
my friends, just asks, Yeah, just.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Ask my friend about something. And if you don't, it
won't be.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Happening anyway anyway. So I'm really conscious, and I'm really
conscious of the people around me that might still be
having the conversations I was, or you know, wearing the
busy badge or oh it's really busy or stressing or
frantic for a couple of people that have come up
(16:09):
against healthy issues in the middle of that, and watching
how hard it is to still make the choice and
realize that, like to pull yourself out of that, out
of it. I've got to I'm busy. I've got to
make more money, I've got to do more things. I've
got to produce, you know, Like I get it because
(16:30):
I feel in me what drives me towards that. But
there's the experience of something, and then there's the knowledge
of wanting of that not really being a reality, it's
just a story. And then there's the trying to move
yourself to live a little bit differently, and it takes time.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I think it's also part of
it is about getting there's so many facets diss but
getting clear about what you want and what you don't want,
and why you want that thing and why you don't
want that other thing. Right, And I've had a lot
of conversations lately with people about and I know we're
(17:12):
revisiting this old chestnut, but metacognition, you know, thinking about
how I think and how you think and all of
that stuff, like starting to become aware of the so
many people at the moment are so fucking emotional about
what they think about Donald Trump, or what they think
(17:36):
about Anthony Albanuzi, or what they think about the Carnival
diet or what they think. And it's like, I understand
that you don't think like me or agree with me,
or you do agree and you do you know, either
way all good? But do we have to hate everyone
who doesn't think like us? Do we have to call
everyone a fuck with that likes Donald Trump or hates
(17:58):
Donald Trump? Or do we do we have to like
do we need to be so vitriolic and so nasty?
Does it and by the way, does it move the needle?
Does it help? Does it improve anything? Is it creating
good outcomes? Is making people feel better or do better?
Like it's I understand there's always going to be divergence
(18:19):
of opinion and idea and belief in philosophy and behavior,
of course, but it's like, Okay, you're a Muslim, I'm
an atheist, tips a Catholic, old mates, a Buddhist or
whatever whatever it is. Hey, let's all have dinner and
not talk about any of that shit and let's just
hang out like or let you know. It's like, we
(18:40):
don't need to try to convince other people that what
we think is the thing that everybody should think. But
that seems to be a lot of what happens on
in some areas of social media, where it's just people
screaming at each other who all have a different opinion.
(19:01):
You know, I did that. I think I might have
even done it with you that on the Fence episode
a while ago, we're talking about the beauty of like,
you know, people tell you you've got to get off
the fence. I'm like, no, you don't, because what they're
saying is you need to pick a side. Well, fuck
your sides. I don't want to be on a side
because I don't want to be in your group. I
don't want to be in their group. I don't want
(19:21):
to be in a fucking group. I want to just
think for myself and if it happens to align with
what you think or they think, that's cool. But I'm
still not in a group with you, because the problem
is that once we are in these groups, these philosophical, religious, nutritional, political,
sociological groups, whatever, now you're part of the group. Now
(19:42):
you need to align with the group. To stay in
the group, which means you have this drive to belong
and this drive to align. So now you can't be
critical of anything, which means you can't think critically because
you are more interested in staying a member of the
group than actually telling people or actually being true to
(20:02):
your own thinking and ability to critically decide or what
is or isn't for you. Now, there are many things
that I think like, I might be in the middle
of a situation where people are talking about something that
I think is bullshit, and I won't nod my head
and agree with them. But I have enough awareness and
social intelligence to know that if in the middle of
(20:23):
all of this, I go, I think you're all full
of shit. I think you're wrong. This is what I
think is right, and that may be what I'm thinking,
but I'm definitely not going to say that, not because
I'm scared, but because it won't help. It won't change anything.
Nobody's going to go Nobody who thinks something diametrically opposed
(20:44):
to me is going to go, Oh, that's the really
good point, Craig, I am wrong. Thanks for pointing that
out right. It doesn't happen. And by the way, I
don't know that I'm right. I just have a different
opinion to you and this idea that or this, uh
what's the word this in lack of capacity for people
(21:08):
to be able to go Look, I really think this,
but I could be wrong, Like people seem to have
an aversion to no, fuck you and fuck that group
and where it's like, geez, do you not? I get
shit wrong all the time, and I'm and I think
about this stuff a lot, and I'm mildly educated. I'm
mildly I do a lot of research and thinking and exploring,
(21:31):
and I still get half the shit wrong. So why
do you think you couldn't be wrong? And this is
the problem, is that that you get all of these
echo chambers where everyone whatever it is, they think there.
I don't even know if I've answered your question. I've
completely diverted the conversation. I'm aware, But to me, that's
(21:52):
just it's a bit sad. It's a bit sad that
we think we're the smartest species, but we're so fucking
stupid and ignorant so much of the time, and we
do so much that hurts so many people, and we
can't just and I know this sounds naf and I
know it's never going to happen, but imagine if people
were just more concerned with being loving and kind. Doesn't
(22:14):
mean to everyone all the time, but just where you went, like,
I just met with this Should I say? It doesn't matter,
I just I won't say, but I just met with
this person who needed some help. Literally, I came straight.
I left the cafe at twenty two past one, and
you and I were on it half past one. And
(22:35):
at the end it was someone who asked for and
I can't be everything for everyone, so please don't send
me an email. But they said what do I owe you?
And I went nothing, and I'm like, it's all good,
and they they're like, why would you do that? And
I literally go, because I've got some skills and knowledge
that you need and you need help. And they're like,
I do, but but why would you do it for nothing?
(22:56):
And I'm like, it's kind of sad that people blown
away when someone would genuinely just help them where there's
no hook, catch agenda, it's not strategic. And I go because, well, one,
you need the help, and I know I can help
you a little bit and it's my pleasure see you later.
But you know. That's why I've said to you, and
(23:18):
I've said on this show, I'll shut up after this. Like,
if you've got two or three of those people in
your life that are just there for you no matter
what all the time, even when you're being a fucking idiot,
which is going to be regularly because you're a human.
If you've got three people in your life that just
would show up for you and be there for you,
then I think you're doing great. Which sounds kind of pessimistic,
(23:41):
but I just think finding those no matter what, people
who love you inside out, and they'll probably tell you
when you're being a dickhead as well, but that's okay,
Like those people are a gift I love.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
I actually love that idea of being on the fence.
I think I feel like you might have done it
solo on that I don't think I listen to that.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Yeah, I think it's the smartest space to be. Remember
this pulsion that we have. Sorry, i'll shut up after this.
Don't send me an email and know I'm talking too much.
But where we tell people they've got to pick a side,
let me tell you don't. You don't. In fact, there's
probably better to not pick a side.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
I reckon. I've landed there a lot more with in
recent times. Again, I've come back there. I've come back
to the fence in a lot of things and then
just got to the point where go Then when you
sit on the fence, you go, Okay, Now, how much
of my time and energy is warranted by even thinking
about it? You know, it's it's hard, I might just
(24:46):
park that whole thing. Because it's when I first became
old enough to vote, I was always so aware of
so when I'm when I want to learn something, when
I'm interested in something, I kind of I'm really curious.
I want to learn it pretty deeply. And if it's
not in that bucket, it's in that I don't give
a fuck and I won't listen and I'll earn bucket.
(25:09):
When it became old enough to vote, I was like,
I am so aware that the implications of making decisions
are have go far beyond my knowledge, and I don't
think people reflect on that. I don't people think people
think past their immediate circumstances to all of the knock
(25:31):
on effects of the decisions that are made, beyond what
might just sound good or feel good or be good.
For them and their family.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah. Yeah, Well, also when you think back just to
our notion that you started with the being on the fence,
I actually visualize me on a fence and there's hundreds
or thousands of people on one side and thousands on
the other. Now I'm on the fence, see the literally
(26:01):
or metaphorically. I have a perspective that none of them
do because they are all compartmentalized. They're all in this
group or that group. I'm not in your fucking group.
I don't want to be in your group. And I'm
not better and I'm not worse. I'm just not You know,
it might happen that we land on the same beliefs
(26:23):
and that's cool, but there will be other things that
I totally disagree with you on. You know, this is funny.
A couple of days ago, maybe it was yesterday other
day before I had Zoe Daniels on the Oh you
were there, and you know what I found funny I said,
(26:44):
to full disclosure to our listeners, I said to Zoe
before we started, I'm about as political as a moccasin.
So this is not going to be some fucking hard
hitting political interrogation. So breathe easy champ, you know, And
I think she probably went, oh, yeah, sure, and then
it proceeded to me exactly what I said it was
(27:04):
going to be, and it just so happens that she's
a politician and I'm a podcaster and a researcher and
a speaker, and it was two people talking. It wasn't
a political conversation at all. And my perspective was I've
interviewed hardly any politicians, a couple Senator Jackie Lambish right.
(27:30):
But here's what's funny. Three people since have said to
me something like either I'm pretty surprised you interviewed her,
or why would you give her any airtime? And I'm like,
people are funny, aren't they? And I couldn't even I
(27:51):
couldn't even be fucked. I'm like, I didn't want to
go ah, you know, and I'm like cool, you know.
And then someone else tell that, you know, she sent
a message went she's amazing. I love that. A few
other people went oh wow, like I've never heard of her,
she's great. Couple of other people went glad you got
her on, right, but it's so funny that, well, why'd
(28:12):
you get it?
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Well?
Speaker 1 (28:12):
I got her on because She's a human and I
wanted to talk to her, and if she thinks what
I think or doesn't think what I think, or we
have the same or different or whatever, it's all okay.
It's like, I don't want to get a version of
me on the show every day, but just to be
able to have a conversation with somebody. Yeah, a few
people got their nose out of joint because I interviewed her,
(28:35):
and I'm like, Wow, it says way more about you
than her.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
That is just so so interesting, because I think I thought,
I thought to myself, I'd never heard of Zoe Daniel.
And I got to the end of that and I
think I said, to you, she was I really enjoyed that.
She was really nice. But also her work as a
foreign correspondent and the stuff she's done in her life
makes it to me makes her really interesting. Yes, And
(28:59):
I'm kind of really interested in what sort of a
human it takes to want to be in the political
space at all, like whether she's on which side of
the fucking fence or fences?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
She said, Oh, I'm with you. I I have zero
interest in a politician. I think it's the worst. I
think it's the worst fucking job of all time. You
know it's I think, fuck that. But anyway, but yeah,
it was. I was a little bit surprised and one
(29:33):
person that I know quite well and it was like,
though I didn't say, but they pretty much said, I'm
disappointed in you. I'm like, oh, fuck, I can't tell
you how many fucks I do not give about your disappointment.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
But anyway, selling you didn't mention anything about which party
she was representing or anything at all.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
I don't know, did you. It was just that I feel, Yeah,
it was just that I had her on It was disappointing.
Oh I'm sorry. Fuck I should have wrung you and
got your seal of approval. How thoughtless of me to
to somebody that didn't get your tickh And to that listener,
shout out to you, you know who you are.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
It is a reminder that no matter what we're doing,
which often people are trying to, especially in today's world
where everything's everyone's got a profile and a voice of
some sort, and we want to appeal to everyone, and
you just can't. It can't kill everyone. It's like, Okay,
I have to make my decisions on what I think
(30:33):
and how I think and what I believe in, and
those and the people who who resonate with my style
of thinking will will come to me or speak to
me and talk to me, and we will have this
understanding that for us, that is, that is what works.
And then there will be a whole bunch of other
people that it's like, that's that's not going to be
(30:56):
for you. That's there's gonna be different path, there's gonna
be different resources.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Yeah, and I think that I'm going to say something
that will get more nose out of joint. Fuck it.
I think when people do everything that they can to
be popular, it's a sign of weakness, not integrity. Yeah, right,
I think, fuck you just say what you you know.
Of course, we need to exercise wisdom and you know,
(31:21):
not be overly insensitive to anyone. I get all of that,
But don't say shit that you don't believe because you
think that's going to make you popular. And there's so
much fucking insincere, superficial self help, fucking I want to
spew in my own mouth crap right that people wheel
(31:43):
out regularly because they want people to love them, like them,
approve of them. Might do just say what you really think,
you know, be be aware and sensitive and if it's
if it's just going to be highly offensive, and then
then don't. But but but you know, if you think
something's shit, that's okay, and if you're wrong, that's okay,
and if you're right, that's okay. But yeah, I think that,
(32:08):
you know, I think that the reason that this show
has done okay is, you know, and it's not the
high watermark for shows, and it's not the ABC and
it's not Joe Rogan and it's not you know whatever,
but we do all right because I think the conversations
are real and raw and clunky and lumpy, and you know,
we get stuff right, we get stuff wrong. We have
(32:28):
interesting chats with interesting people. And I think that, you know,
like you and me are both fucking horrible at selling ourselves, right,
You're not.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
Always sell them myself, bro, look at me.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, you're You're not bad with You're not bad with
the posts and the but in terms of like, you know,
my new mentoring program, right, I get uncomfortable even to go, hey,
I'm running a mentoring program blah blah blah, which I
should do every single episode, and every episode I forget
to do it. But I think that I get that,
(33:04):
you know, people have got to sell stuff. By the way,
there's nothing wrong with people selling themselves and programs and
products and stuff. But I think in the middle of
your program, your product, your mentoring group, whatever the fuck
it is, just don't say shit about it that it
isn't true, you know. And if one more self help
person promotes themselves as the dude or the girl who
(33:29):
changes lives, I'm like, I'm going to spew in my
mouth again. I'm like, don't you don't change lives. You
just share thoughts and ideas that aren't yours anyway. Like
you didn't invent psychology, you didn't invent human behavior. You know,
you and I for the most part, other than stories
that are unique to us, I am not sharing any
(33:52):
information that has never been revealed to the world. But
in terms of knowledge of human behavior, psychology, physiology, sociology,
how humans work and think and behave and interact and operate,
there's nothing new. But everyone wants to think that they're
the genius that's tapped into the secret of fucking human existence,
(34:12):
and it's just not true. We're all just different fucking
people navigating the human experience In our own way falling down,
fucking up, getting up, and some people are going to
resonate with Craig Harper or Tif Cook and some are not.
And some are going to think I'm a prick, and
some are going to think I'm a fucking big, lovable
fuck with and whatever. You know. But it's and it's
(34:34):
all okay. But let's just not pretend we're something that
we're not.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Yeah, yesterday, yesterday, yesterday I caught up with doctor Bill
God bless him, have my therapy session. It was great.
And the last portion we got to talking, I was
talking about the program program I'm doing and speaking and
at the moment there's a lot of pulling out all
of my ideas and thoughts and the stuff I care
(35:01):
about and like looking under the hood of what it
means and why it has meaning to me and how
to really get absolute clarity on that so that I
know that what I'm talking about is landing with all
the people the way that I actually intended to, which
I'm loving. I'm loving the process. But I was talking
to him about some of my ideas on resilience, and
(35:24):
what I loved was he was We had this great
conversation so he's done. Like he's in his seventies, he's
been a speaker, he's an academic, he's a professor. Now
he's doing you know, he's kind of doing less of
that and more just one on one and living his life,
dealing trying to keep me on track with mine.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
We are a fucking full time project.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
But I love talking to him because he's real and
honest and he goes, oh, like, so we were unpacking
what is resilience, what isn't resilience? What's the psychological definition
of resilience? And I love that. I love doing that
with different people because I'm like, oh, this for me,
this is gold. I'm sitting here with a psychotherapist that's
worked in drug an alcohol rehabilitation, that's worked across the world,
(36:07):
that's been a professor and an academic, and he's saying
to me, yeah, I'm not sure I'm going to go
and do some research on resilience. Now. I think I
like the way you're thinking of that. Yeah, it's cool,
like we go and learn things. We go and to
do courses to do learning. But I am more interested
(36:28):
in learning from from the inside and from other peoples
and from perspectives and experiences and going what what does
this mean for all of the different but not just
what has somebody written and convinced other people what's just
sounded good enough to get in a psychology book, But
what has today's world real practical in the stuff that
(36:52):
in the type of people that come to speak to
Tiff Cook. Those people they're going to have a certain
with certain demographic or they'll have a certain backstory, they'll
have some reason to relate to me. So how do
I talk about resilience and encourage resilience and explore resilience
(37:13):
with them as opposed to handing them to DSM and
going resilience says ye, resilience is a cold shower.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
He's yeah, yeah, Hey try harder, Brian, Hey, Sally, It'll
be alright. Stiff up a lip. Do you know what's
interesting about that? On Doc Telly her Pep Soldier on
you'll be right good on Doctor Bill for being that
(37:45):
humble and aware to go fuck not really sure, but
what is here's a thing that I've learned without trying
to sound like a dick, because I've already said I'm
the world's worst academic. But here's something that I've learned
that I never thought I would learn doing my power.
So when I started November one, twenty nineteen, one of
the first because my PhD is essentially in the area
(38:07):
of self awareness, understanding others and self and da da da,
And well, what am I going to do is I'm
going to start with just clearly defining self awareness. Let's
start there. Well, there's no definition. There's thirty two definitions,
there's one hundred, and there's three hundred and thirty. So
you know, like even with resilience, there's what we call convergence.
(38:28):
There's no convergence of definition, and so it just means, oh,
there is no like with my research, specifically, meta accuracy
and metaperception. I started with because one of the things
that I was looking at, one of the myriad of
things I'm looking at in one of my papers, which
is called a systematic literature review of the way essentially
(38:50):
that meta accuracy is measured. So, in other words, how
good am I in terms of like at understanding how
other people see me? Howcurate am I? So I started
with twelve hundred papers that met my search criteria in
these academic search engines. Twelve hundred papers. Tiffany in ended
(39:10):
up with one hundred and ten papers, and of the
one hundred and ten papers that formed this fucking gigantic
table that me and my research team have created, and
that form that was the starting point for this, which
is what currently is a seventy two page academic paper
on blah blah blah. Right, here's the thing. Even with
(39:32):
that very specific thing, metaaccuracy, there's no unifying definition. So
the funny thing is you think, oh, like, if you're
not like, you're a I would call you a like
a casual researcher, Like you're not an academic researcher, but
you do research right in your own way, using your
own tools and resource sources. But you think, oh, let
(39:54):
me get the actual definition. Well, there is no especially
in psychology. And as I mean, and this is I've
said this before, I have a love hate relationship with
psychology because human behavior is fucking fascinating. I do endeavor
to understand it first, you know, seek first to understand right,
and then to be understood. But then we know that
(40:20):
it's from from a straight science point of view. You
and I can run the same test on the same
person four days in a row. From a psychometric evaluation
point of view, and we're going to get four different
sets of data, you know what I mean. So it's
not because it's not consistent. Whereas you know, if we
(40:42):
do the same test in physics, we're going to get
the same result. You know, if I drop my phone
right now to the floor, it's going to fall to
the floor at nine point eight one meters per second,
because that's how fast things fall, give or take, and
it's going to hit the floor one hundred times out
of one hundred. Right. So in certain science it's very reliable,
it's very predictable, it's very consistent. The problem with psychology
(41:06):
is humans are not static. Humans are dynamic emotionally, psychologically, sociologically, physiologically,
not even to the point where you could do an
IQ test at eight o'clock in the morning and you'll
score ten points higher than you do at eight o'clock
in the evening, but you're the same person. But then
what we do is we go, oh, unequivocally, TIFF's IQ
(41:29):
is one seventeen, Well, no, it's actually one twenty seven
in the morning or one ninety seven doesn't matter, or no,
Craig is Craig's got this, or Craig's got that. Well,
if you tested him on a different day, you might
find out he doesn't have that. So it's a you know,
the whole world of psychological research and defining things like
(41:51):
resilience or self awareness. It's a very kind of dynamic landscape.
It's not as hard and fast as people see.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Th I wrote down when you were talking about that,
I wrote down self understanding, behavior, priming, and manipulation. And
because I was thinking of things so with an interaction
with a person, all of those things are happening beneath
the surface, and we all have different levels of self fantasy.
How much do I understand myself? And then I was
(42:22):
thinking of back when I first started working with you,
and you know, like I would remember that time you
were like, sometimes I feel like you are pissed off
or example, I was like, sometimes I am harps and
I haven't figured it out yet, and I know it's
there were so many times when I was like, what,
(42:44):
I have this emotional reaction and I don't know what's
me and what's real. I don't know what's Craig and
what's my shit that I'm just unaware of. And I
know that there were times at first, where was like
I'd be in the fucking zoom room waiting and excited
as fuck, and you'd slide in straight from another meeting
right on time to start, and they'd be like, doesn't
(43:05):
me give a fuck because people that are late with me.
I had a thing about it, and whether or not
I know the reality of it, that meant that something
switched inside me, and whether I liked it or not,
I was a bit fucking bottom lip out, sad and
maybe a bit angry and pissed off. And I'm like,
it's such a fucking asshole. He doesn't even want to
say hi to me first. He just comes in and
(43:25):
then I'll just fucking go and edit the pod. You know,
it was like, but when I'd leave that and go,
you know that's not reality, but it would still happen.
So we have all of this stuff. So that's hard
to measure in psychology when you go, okay, we'll let's
set up all these ways to measure meta accuracy. But
even my experience of interactions with people in the moment
(43:49):
and then walking away later and processing a different understanding
of them because I'm not dissociated like I've had times
where I accommodate and say yes to everything, because that
was a thing that it was a coping mechanism that
happened from being a kid and being needed unwanted and
abandonment and all the things. And then I got older
(44:10):
and I got to a point where I was like,
I do that. I need to learn to say? Can
I think about it? Because I keep getting a day
later and going fuck, what the hell did I say
yes to that? What do I always say yes to that person?
I don't even want to do that. That's not good
for me. Yeah, So yeah, I think with those self evaluations,
(44:30):
you're measuring stuff in one moment that and people's levels
of self knowledge and understanding are changing all the time.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
So what is really good about what you just said
is all of that's true? And it's funny because people
would think that and you and I have never really
had a problem. But there's been a few lumps and
bumps here and there, but nothing bad or relationship threatening
or But the truth is that, well, one, I can
be difficult, that's absolutely true. Two, you can be difficult,
(45:01):
that's absolutely true. You like no, but this is what
we've got to like, do I ever get off and
think fucking tiff. No, I don't think that. I would
more likely to think are fucking me? I'm more likely
to think that, right. But the thing is that whatever
is going on between you and whoever, you and me,
(45:23):
you and your mum, you and your client, you are
only ever capable of analyzing it subjectively. Yeah, because you
you, you're you, so you're looking at it through the through
your bias the people that did this to you or
didn't do that to you, and your beliefs, and you're
you could be in a shitty mood because you're twenty
(45:44):
three percent angry and whatever. Right now. I could do
the exact same thing on a different day, your response
would be very different because on that day you're very
different or you're somewhat different. But what is good about
all of this and this is this is beautiful what's
going on right now, because this is how people need
(46:06):
to talk. I think about. Look, you did this and
I got pissed off. Maybe it was you, maybe it
was me, Maybe it was a bit of both of us.
I'm not sure. But this is how we have real
relationships and real conversations and with our friends and with
our colleagues and with our family. About what is really
(46:26):
going on or you know, and it's not like I
felt this. You made me feel. No, you didn't make
me do anything. This happened, and as a result, this
is how I felt. Now. I don't know how much
of that is you, how much of that is me.
It's probably all me. But my response was, but once
I got over myself and I went and you know,
distilled it and thought about it a little bit, I
(46:46):
realized it was many me or but and there been
times with you where I have thought about things and
I've come back and I've said to you, Okay, this
is how I'm feeling, saying you're doing anything wrong, but
I would tell you one So, for example, this is
something that you and I have spoken about a bit,
(47:06):
and I'll share with the listeners one hundred percent of transparency.
I have had a very long history of people being
my best friend as long as I'm useful to them.
You and I have had that chat, right, and so
I'm a bit wary of people who are all love
and light and Jesus and unicorns to me. Oh, harp
sure this, harp sure that, and ha ha ha ha,
(47:27):
and we're all bestie buddies. And then my used by
date runs out. Now I can't help them anymore, or
open any more doors for them, or introduce them to
any more people, or give them any more professional leg ups.
I've done everything I can do for them. Then they
stop reaching out. I'm like, oh, oh, that wasn't a
friend at all, right, And I've shared that with you,
(47:50):
and obviously you're not one of those people. But so
that for me where I'm I'm in terms of opening
the door me opening the door like the Craig door,
the fucking just to my heart to where I care
about people. You know, I don't open that door that often.
But at the same time, I feel compelled to help
(48:12):
and serve people, but I expect very little back, you know.
But you and I have spoken about that, and you
did a couple of things which you weren't actually doing
anything wrong, but because of my history, I got upset,
not upset, but probably I got a little bit oh
(48:33):
oh oh fuck no, no, I'm not here again, am I?
And but then you know, when we understand more, then
we connect more, then we go oh like, that's why
I say to people, And I know we bang on
it about a lot, but you know, theory of mind
(48:53):
is understanding how others think. Well, fuck, let's try that,
you know, And because I am understand you pretty well,
not completely, not totally, and not flawlessly, but I understand
you pretty well after whatever six years or whatever it is,
and so I have a pretty good idea of how
to build rapport and connection and trust with you and
(49:16):
have a conversation with you, and you know, like, what's
the word, have the most kind of healthy relationship we
can have without that sounding strategic. But at the same time,
here's an interesting thing. People think that a strategic relationship
(49:38):
is bad. Well, it's only bad if you're pretending it's
not strategic. So I think, like, for example, I love
my mum and dad unconditionally, but I need to be
strategic about how I talk to my dad, because if
I need to be thoughtful about where I go and
(50:00):
where I don't go conversationally, and if I don't have
some kind of ron strategy, not that it's insincere or fake,
but there's going to be a shitfest every time I
see him, because we don't see either eye on some things.
But my strategy in inverted commas is that every time
I see my dad it's good. I'm not going to
say anything that's going to ruffle feathers. I'm not going
(50:22):
to you know, I'm not necessarily going to agree with
everything either. But my strategy is that seeing dad for
him and for me and for mom is a good experience. Right,
So I think in that way we can be strategic.
You go into a meeting, do you have a strategy, yew,
I want to create a good outcome. Well, that's a
good that's a good intention. But we're talking about those
(50:44):
kind of hidden strategies and agendas where you're pretending that
it's one thing, but actually underneath there's an agenda that
you're not being open about.
Speaker 3 (50:53):
And people don't tend to actively plan or or deconstruct
this stuff after the moment. So we have interactions, people
piss us off, and then we go and we vent
because there's tensions. So we have a vent to someone
this person always says this, and then that dissipates, and
(51:16):
then we let it go and it continues it to cycle.
We never go like the step is, well, okay, I'm
going to react, Like our emotions don't lie. If we
emotionally react to somebody's treatment, well that's happening, and if
it's keeping on keeping, if it's happening, if it's keeping
on happening, well.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
Welcome back to English with tiff lesson for.
Speaker 3 (51:43):
But if it's going to continue to happen, you have
to address it right. So you can't. You can't just
wrestle your emotions. If something is making them react, so
they're happening. That's the truth. It's your job to go, Okay,
how do I address this situation? What conversation do I
need to have? How do I manage my emotions next
time they rise in the moment? And then how do
(52:06):
I express that to someone? You did it to me
in the beginning when I'd made a joke about something
and you rang me up and said, I know, I'm
pretty sure you were just joke. You were having a joke,
but that topic you joked about, you said, that's one
that's not a good topic for me to feed a
joke about. So and I remember that I talk about that.
You're doing that a lot. Because that was a lesson
(52:28):
for me, I went like, I got goosebumps. Now. I
was like, I never want someone to feel hurt by
something i'm joking. Like, if I know that now, so
I learned. So it's but we don't want to do
that because it's scary, because it's confronting, because it's a
difficult conversation. But it's like, well, it's either that or
you'll continue having the emotional disruption and then you'll fracture
(52:50):
the relationship and the other person will be a fuck
and when they're probably really not, it's just not being communicated.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
There's another part to that, which is when you said
the emotions are real, it's true, they are real, of course,
but then the question is are they helpful or is
the emotional response disproportionate to the stimulus, Like is my
emotional reaction kind of appropriate? You know? It's like you
(53:21):
might go, I don't know, you might say something offhand,
a little whatever, and you're not at all, and then
I lose my shit. Well that's true, I lost my shit.
I'm angry. That's true, but it's inappropriate. So there's that
we do need to acknowledge our emotions, but we also
need to be curious about them, because some of our
emotions serve us and some of us fucking sabotage us.
(53:44):
So it's true to say, yes, this emotion is real,
and I don't want to deny it, but it doesn't
mean it's right.
Speaker 3 (53:52):
Yeah, and just because you're having conversation with someone about
it doesn't mean that they have to change it. Might
you might just be saying, hey, when this happens, this
happens for me. I realize that's not a youth thing.
But I just want you to know so that you
understand what might be happening for me in that moment.
(54:13):
And I'm working on that. But that can be a resolve.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
But we.
Speaker 3 (54:17):
Brush things under the carpet and it doesn't fix anything.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
I feel like you and I right now are in
the middle of a dual therapy session for each other,
and I definitely am.
Speaker 3 (54:27):
I'm just trying to get some of that shit out
from under my car. But I've been sweeping under there
for forty years.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
It is It is really interesting. It is interesting how
how we think outwardly and how we think inwardly, and
you know, the stuff that we're happy to share and
the stuff that we're you know, because we're always are
we always I think we're kind of always worried about
(54:54):
how people see us. So because of that, or at
least aware of how people says, which is not a
terrible thing, of course. So I think there's you know,
it's like I said to Zoey Daniel the other day,
zoe Daniels the other day about like, at the same time,
she wants to be this real and raw and authentic
human as we all do, but also she's got this
(55:18):
brand and this persona, and she's a politician and she's
in federal government and she's you know, it's like, how
do you manage that? Because like it or not, there
is a persona that doesn't mean you're being fake or fraudulent,
but also underneath that is a real person. And this
is the this is the line that we walk, especially
(55:40):
when you and I are not famous and we're no
big deal, but we have a little tiny voice in,
you know, in that we do these these things that
we do these podcasts, and people listen to us, and like,
you want to be like you simultaneously want to be
liked and respected and loved and all of those things
because you're human, but also you want people to know
(56:02):
you really, you know, like know me like I'm not
like I'm I'm hopefully like I'm not the guy that's
just trying to scam you or sell you shit or
you know, I know I'm not that guy, but you can't.
Like if you say that, then you sound like an idiot.
But then if you you know, and in the middle
(56:22):
of all of this, you know, then somebody will send me, Oh,
I bet you're not doing those fucking corporate gigs for free. Well, no,
I actually need to have a job, So that is
my job. Is that alright with you? Like? What are you?
You're a plumber? Do you do you clean poo out
of pipes for free? Or do you charge? You know?
(56:43):
It's like, what do you want me to do? It's
like I've done nearly two thousand podcasts for free. I've
written fucking a trillion post giving free advice and inspiration
and education for free. I do a lot of shit,
you know. It's like I can't do everything for free
because I've got to eat, I've got to pay bills.
So but what I do do, based on my values
(57:05):
and my internal sat nab is I pretty much do
as much free stuff as I can, you know. And
but beyond that, I just start to fuck up my
own life, you know. So it doesn't need to be
one or the other. And I've said this to people before.
I can go in and do a whole day with
NAB and charge them a fucking fortune because and I
(57:29):
never say this, but one I'm good at it, and
two they can afford it. And bibbity bobbity booth, thanks
for the dough and they say, thanks, Harps, you were great.
We're all happy. But then I can go and you know,
do something else where. It's just that gift of giving
and it's beautiful and I'm not only am I okay
with it, it's important to me.
Speaker 3 (57:50):
Me also when the right people are open to that. Okay,
NAB spending that money anyway, NAB buying someone to do
that job. So I want to not have a person
that's going to make a difference.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
Yeah yeah, And well you know, you try to. And
you think I did that gig last week? Was it
last week? For I think I told you women in print,
shout out to the women in print, that was so good.
Speaker 3 (58:15):
That was me for a long time.
Speaker 1 (58:18):
Well what do you mean, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's true. And they were ace And like you know,
I mean, I just get up there and I talk.
There's no PowerPoint, there's no I don't half the time,
like I might have one page with some dot points
or not. It usually stays in my pocket. And anyway,
I just talk. And at the end of it, you know,
(58:39):
everyone's like, the feedback was good. Everyone enjoyed it. And
I said, you know, did you enjoy that? Yep? Was
it relevant? Yeah, you know your bits inspired? Yep, that's cool.
And I go, look, I'm really glad you liked it,
and I'm glad you liked me because I'm wildly insecure.
So thank you for liking me and giving me approval.
But here's what I want to tell you. Actual matters
(59:01):
me turning up and talking to you for an hour. Really,
that's me doing a job, and I get money and
I do my thing. But what I really care about
is what you do next. And I said, so, I've
just given you an hour of feared. Life's not a theory.
And I hope that the feedback's good, and I hope
people go, oh, that Craig Harper guy was good and
(59:21):
the whole morning was great, and the Brecky was nice
and the host you know, and it's all it's a
good experience and that's great. But really what matters is
what you do over the next week to five, ten
twenty weeks, and a few people came up and said
to me later, thank you for saying that stuff at
the end, And I said, well, that's the stuff that
moves the needle. If I tell great stories and I'm
(59:44):
funny and inspiring and then everybody forgets what I've said
ten minutes after it's done. Well, you can't apply what
you can't remember, and if you don't apply it, you
can't create change. So I want to really impress Yes,
me turning up doing my job. I'm glad you enjoyed it,
but that's not important. I'm not important. Even what I
said is not important unless you can operationalize that to
(01:00:07):
create some kind of shift on planet you, which is
why we do personal and professional development, so that we
might help people create some kind of shift.
Speaker 3 (01:00:19):
Hm.
Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
I feel like we're done. Are we done? We just
hit the the conversational finish line? Did I see your
chin touch the tape?
Speaker 3 (01:00:29):
We've we've just flown past the jack and flag.
Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
You're like the You're like the gout gout of conversations.
I was doing great, I was doing great, and you
just fucking blew by me. And yeah, what's your word again?
Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
That slipped me happening, happening.
Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
You just happened right past me.
Speaker 3 (01:00:57):
I'm going to copyright that word happening.
Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
I think I don't know who's hosting today, you or me.
I think you started, but so you can sign off
for us.
Speaker 3 (01:01:06):
Thanks everyone, Thanks Harts
Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
Thanks Tiff, she said, it's now never I got fighting
in my blood
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