March 2, 2025 • 51 mins
Ever wondered what it takes to fly straight into danger and make it out the other side? Well, strap in because today’s guest, Kim 'KC' Campbell, knows exactly what that feels like.
Kim is a retired US Air Force fighter pilot who spent 24 years defying expectations, leading missions in Iraq and Afghanistan, and navigating some of the most intense situations imaginable. She’s flown over 100 combat missions in the A-10, including one that saw her aircraft severely damaged over Baghdad, forcing her to make a split-second decision that could have meant life or death.
We dive deep into that moment, the mental and physical resilience it took to stay in control, and how her training kicked in when everything seemed to be falling apart. Kim shares what it was like growing up with a dream that didn’t seem possible, pushing through barriers in a male-dominated field, and how those lessons in courage, discipline, and leadership have shaped her life ever since.
This is a conversation about grit, mindset, and what it really means to face fear head-on. Whether you’re flying high in your career, navigating personal challenges, or just looking for a jolt of inspiration, Kim’s story is one you won’t forget.
SPONSORED BY TESTART FAMILY LAWYERS
Website: testartfamilylawyers.com.au
KIM 'KC' CAMPBELL
Website: kim-kc-campbell.com/
TIFFANEE COOK
Linktree: linktr.ee/rollwiththepunches/
Website: tiffcook.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/tiffaneecook/
Facebook: facebook.com/rollwiththepunchespodcast/
Instagram: instagram.com/rollwiththepunches_podcast/
Instagram: instagram.com/tiffaneeandco
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Good day, Legends.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Welcome to another episode of Roll with the Punches podcast.
I'm your host, Tiff Cook, and today I am speaking
to an absolute weapon.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Her name is Kim K. C. Campbell.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
She's a former us FIDER pilot and far out does.
She have stories that are going to make your heart race.
We're talking about doing the impossible. We're talking about living
on the edge of not being here anymore. We're talking
about courage, fear, resilience, greatness, all of the things that
life is about. And I loved it and I hope
(00:36):
you love it too. Nobody wants to go to court,
and don't. My friends are test Art Family Lawyers. Know
that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. Their
team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in all
areas of family law to facto and same sex couples,
custody and children, family violence and intervention orders, property set
(00:59):
on my and financial agreements. Test Art is in your corner,
so reach out to Mark and the team at www
dot test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Kim Campbell Welcome to Roll with the Punches.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward
to the conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Oh mate, you bloody superstar.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I Like I said, I was just having a having
a last minute read about you and looking at some
photos online and it actually it actually made me shudder.
I was had goosebumps and was shaddering going for far
out And I guess it's something about I'm female and
your female. It's something about you being female that made
(01:43):
that more of a reality for me. It was like, whoa,
you're not just it's just more relatable. Not really, no,
I'm not frying planes.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Well, I think it's about doing hard things, and I
think it's sometimes we you know, without telling the story right,
It's like there are things in life that I never
thought that I would be capable of doing, and then
you're in a situation and you do it, you know,
because well for me, there's nobody else flying the airplane
(02:14):
but me. But it's just about doing hard things and
getting through them. And I think that's super relatable. No
matter what career, field, or profession that you're in, we
face hard things. There are things that are unimaginable that
we would have to face in our lives, and then
we do and it just continues to build resilience and
make us better, although terrifying in the process.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, I find that life for me is far better
and more enriching when I have something that I love
that forces me into that high level of discomfort and
hard things like that pushes those buttons in a way
that I also walk away and go, God, that's my
thing for me. Boxing getting punched in the face, getting
(02:59):
pummeled and put challenged, and dealing with your own inner
thoughts and your own reactions to it, and then walking
away and going half of the time, oh, this is
the worst thing ever. What do I even show up?
And then half the time going that moment, those moments there,
that's why I show up. But it's all because it
(03:20):
relates to life. Because I see stuff in those places
that I see in everyday life, and it gives me
I don't know, I guess, somewhere to practice doing life.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
I think about like as this ten year old little
girl with this crazy dream of wanting to be a
fighter pilot. I mean, and keep in mind, when I
was ten, it was nineteen eighty six and women were
not allowed to be fighter pilots. So what made this
little girl have this crazy dream? And I will tell
you at the time, like I had no idea really
what I was getting myself into, but for me, it
(03:53):
was like this thriller flight, the excitement of it. And
the truth is I was watching the launch of the
Space Shuttle Challenger, which you know clearly ended in a tragedy,
but there was something about it that like stuck with
me in terms of these astronauts who are like willing
to give their life or something. And so I just
think about that moment of making that decision, not truly
(04:14):
knowing what I was getting myself into, but this desire,
you know, to go out and do something big that
was going to be challenging and hard, but it was
important to see where that dream started at ten and
me ending up spending twenty four years in the Air
Force as a fighter pilot. You know, I never imagine
(04:34):
the things that I would go through. Some incredible opportunities,
but some really shitty times to be quite honest, you know,
some huge challenges, but also those challenges like those those
are the moments that I look back on and I
know they made me a better person. You know, they
made be a better leader, they made me a better pilot.
(04:54):
I feel like they made me a better mom. I
think it's when we do hard things, like we come
out stronger on the other side, like it makes us better.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, what like as you were talking about that, and
I'm trying to visualize this ten year old girl, and
part of me like all the questions you're coming in,
I'm like, what a blessing to firstly know what you
want to do.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
In life as a ten year old and end up
doing it.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
And then I was like, yeah, but Kim had picked
like this outrageous thing, and all ten year old want
to do something outrageous, and then life takes sweeps away
and we do something mediocre. But how did you at
what point in life? How old were you when you
when you realized that, A, it's not a reality for women,
(05:37):
and you thought you'd do it anyway, And then like,
did you ever think I'm pushing for this but it's
not a reality.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
So the funny thing is, I guess maybe I was
a little naive. I mean, I was tan, so I'll
give myself a break here. But like my parents never said, hey,
women can't do that. My parents just said, all right,
well it's going to be really hard. I think the
truth is they didn't think I was going to go
through with it either, and they were like, well, it's
going to be really hard. You better work hard in school.
(06:04):
Like to them, it was like, oh, finally she'll work
hard in school, she'll pay attention. We won't have to
nagger on our homework. So they were just like, all right,
if you're going to do is you know, you got
to do it right it really you know, I think
a few years later, like as I, you know, continue
to work hard in school and really start working out,
and you know, because of the physical side of all this,
(06:25):
my dad was like, oh, she's going to go through
with this. And you know, for him at that point
kind of seeing my determination and seeing me go after it,
you know, we never talked about like the rules and
the policies. It was like, okay, just work hard and
go after what you wanted. And my dad had been
in the Air Force and he had gone to the
Air Force Academy, which is the path for me for
becoming a fighter pilot. And so he was like, look,
(06:48):
we're going to run together in combat boots and these
hills around the house. He's and I ran track and
cross country and played soccer, so upper body strength wasn't
a thing for me, and he said, you're going to
have to be able to do pull ups and push ups.
He installed a pull up bar in the bathroom, so
every time I went in and out, I was doing
pull ups, you know. And so I think it was
just this point in my life where he realized, like,
(07:10):
she's actually going to do this, and he wanted to
do everything to support me. I just I never paid
attention to the like the thought that I couldn't do
something like nobody had ever said you can't do that.
I certainly had people question it, like, really, that's what
you want to do. It wasn't until high school when
I was doing some research for speech and debate and
I was like, wait a second. It was a women
(07:31):
in combat debate and I was like, I didn't you
know it kind of like the reality of it set in. Thankfully,
the rules changed when I graduated high school, so you know,
I wasn't the first I didn't have to break that
glass ceiling, but certainly one of few women fighter pilots
at the time.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah, it also really reflects what a massive role there
it have in and how lucky we can be when
they have a mind set like that, Like how fortunate
that dad didn't have limiting beliefs that came out and
onto you and shut that down. Luck to be able
to say, let's do this. You know, he at least thought, well,
(08:12):
at the very worst, she'll be a gun. She'll him
and she'll do the work. She'll get good grades, and
she'll have a weapon of an up body.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
She will have a complot out.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
I think he definitely had doubts, Like he had some concerns,
you know, as a dad about a little girl going
off to do this. So he definitely had doubts and concerns.
But what he shared with me was more just like,
all right, if you're going to do this, you're going
to do it right, because it's going to be hard.
You know. He never really sugarcoated it either. Yeah, which
I very much appreciate and certainly set an example for
(08:44):
me now with my kids who are now twelve and sixteen,
you know, when they talk about what they want to
do and how I can help support them on their journey.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Twelve and sixteen, so in one year, your eldest will
be seventeen, the age that you've had your first solo flight.
That child is that is it a boy?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Or a girl.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
They're both boys.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah, Okay, when.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
You look at that particular son, do you think, oh,
within the next twelve months, you could just fly playing
solo and that was you Like, how does that make
you feel?
Speaker 3 (09:17):
It's terrifying.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
You know, it's amazing you're an adult.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
But when you become an adult and then you see
your seveneen year old life, that's a child.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yes, yeah, I realize now some of the things that
I put my parents through, you know, I realize, you know,
choosing this career path and choosing some of the things
I've done, you know, going off to solo practically at
the same time I was learning to drive a car,
I mean, deploying to Afghanistan and Iraq, Like I just,
(09:50):
I like, I think about that for my kids, and
it's terrifying for me. I just it scares me. And
at the time, I mean, I knew it would be hard
for my parents, but I had no idea like what
that would feel like. And so yeah, it's very interesting
now looking back.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Talk about, yeah, of having your first deployment and going
out to serve what was that, Like, how old were
you then?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
So I graduated from the Air Force Academy spent a
couple of years at grad school in the UK, which
is a fantastic experience, something you know, a little bit
different than being in a military institution. And then I
went off to pilot training, and then from pilot training,
it's another year before you can get qualified for combat
mission ready. But I was in A ten training. A
(10:36):
ten is the airplane that I flew, which is a
close air support airplane, so our roles to support troops
on the ground. And I was in a ten training
when nine to eleven happened, and I think at that
point we all kind of knew that our lives were
going to change pretty rapidly. We finished up training in
a couple months, I showed up to my squadron and
(10:58):
a few months later we deployed to Afghanistan. I mean
talk about like pressure in terms like you hope that
all the training and all the effort that you put in,
like you want to do well, you want to perform
for the troops on the ground. Do you want to
be there when they need it? So that was my
very first apployment was Afghanistan in two thousand and two,
and then very quickly we turn around and went to
(11:19):
Iraq in two thousand and three, which is hence the
Wikipedia page that you were referring to.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah, yeah, what when you first take off? Like I guess,
training is such a process that I just always think
of the mindset of the reality of perspective of like
you're going to you're going into combat, you're going into conflict,
you're going into danger, going into essentially save people and
(11:48):
do the opposite to people, And so there has to
be a level of kind of almost dehumanizing that, like
you're going you train, you do it. How much of
that is there? Any of that steal lingers where you go, shit,
I'm a human, this is terrifying.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Can I do this?
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Or are you? Are you so trained that that environment
is just second nature now, Like when I punch someone
in the face in the boxing ring, I'm not hurting anyone,
Like I'm hitting as hard as I can, but there's
no malice.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
I'm not trying to hurt a human being.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
It's a process, Yeah, and it's the purpose behind it too.
I think for me, I think, you know, we go
through so much training, so much so it's like it's
just like muscle memory in terms of some of the
things that we do, and we you know, obviously the
initial training is very just what if the aircraft fails,
and instruments and the process of the airplane and the
(12:42):
systems of the airplane, and then as things as you
progress in training, now you're in a simulated combat environment.
We do huge exercises and they make the stress level very,
very high to try to put you in like a
stress level of being in combat. They simulated shoot at us.
You know, there's lots of things that they can simulate,
(13:02):
but I will tell you that there is nothing quite
like actually getting shot at. There's nothing like actually being
in combat. I mean, as much as we talked about it,
you know, I think part of it is like we
were at the time young. I felt like a little invincible, right,
I don't know, like the I never personally dehumanized it.
I think for me, like it was important for me
(13:24):
to know what I was doing. And I think more
it was like this purpose of my role is to
save our forces on the ground. Sometimes that means we
have to take lives. But I looked at it more
on saving lives. You know, here I'm helping people to
get home to their families. I think keeping it human
and keeping the purpose behind it was for me kind
(13:46):
of what kept me going and you know, to maybe
think less about the negative side. Not like I understood
what I was doing very clearly, but I understood the
reason why behind it.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
I love that talked to me about the two thousand
and three the incident.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Yeah, you know, it's crazy because I was still pretty
I mean I was fairly new in the airplane, a
new wingman in my squadron. I'm sure we had an
Afghanistan deployment, but that was very different. When we went
to Iraq in two thousand and three, I didn't even
know if I was going to get to fly. I mean,
I was just young in the squadron, and I thought,
maybe they'll just have me making maps and you know,
(14:26):
our lineup cards. And then very quickly quickly we realized
that we needed every pilot that we could get, and
you know, the war kicked off mid March. Started flying missions.
Because I was young, they compared me combat paired me
with a very experienced pilot. So we fly in formation.
(14:49):
We always have a wingman, and I would fly with
an experienced pilot because I was less experienced.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Good for you, but don't want to how they felt.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
You know, I think I was a good wingman, but
I think you know they're watching you. You know, they're
making sure and but I tried to be a good wingman, right,
the good be in position, be on the radio, you know,
do what they want you to do, and try to
help where I could. But yeah, it was you know,
this was new for me, and in many ways it
(15:20):
was new for a lot of us. I mean, I
think Afghanistan was one thing, but Iraq the threat was different.
Our squadron commander said, you know, before we flew, talk
about a reality check. He made us write letters home
to our family so that if we didn't make it,
he would have a letter to deliver to us. And
I think his intent was like the gut reality check,
(15:41):
like you're not invincible, Like yes, you may be young,
you may have had an Afghanistan deployment, but you are
not invincible in this war is going to be different.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Yeah, that was like what was a lot to write
that letter.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
It was like, all right, I'll write it because I
have to, but this is going to happen to me, right,
Like this is I'll write it and it's crazy. I
still have the letters. I haven't opened them up, and
I don't know what will make me open them up.
I don't know if it's like a I just I can't.
So I still have the letters. He gave them all
back to us, but I wrote one to my parents,
(16:16):
I wrote one to my husband. I didn't have kids
at the time, and I wrote one to my brother.
And I think it was just this a little sobering,
like a little reality check of what we were about
to do, and a reminder to us like, hey, we've trained,
we've put in the work, but this is going to
be hard and you have to be at like your
peak performance. I didn't realize like how close I would
(16:39):
get to those letters, you know, needing to be delivered,
Like I just you know, before the war kicked off
and things were going pretty smoothly, and we're young and invincible,
so yeah, so we had flown for a couple of
weeks and our ground troops are making their way to
bag Dad pretty I mean, I don't want to say
(17:00):
there were quiet missions, but they were like you know,
the Sometimes the resistance wasn't there on the ground, which
meant that there wasn't much for us to do, and
occasionally we would come back with all our weapons, all
our ordnance. But I was learning on each mission, like okay,
as you're getting closer and closer to Baghdad, just getting
more comfortable, you know, building my confidence. And you know,
(17:20):
we certainly had to employ on some missions to help
our ground troops out, but nothing quite like this mission
on April third. And at this point in the war,
we were we would get a briefing in Kuwait, we'd
fly all the way up to Bagdad. It's about an
hour and a a ten. We would air refuel so
get gas while airborne, and then we would just go
(17:41):
into these stacks like stacked up airplanes around Baghdad because
our ground troops were constantly calling for support. And you know,
I remember that day, this was April seventh. The weather
was terrible, couldn't see the ground below, and we just
didn't think we were going to do anything. We kind
of thought, well, we have to be able to get
(18:01):
below the weather to help ground troops out, and we
didn't see a way to get below the weather, and
we just figured, you know, we're going to have to
go home.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
And then we kind of.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Get this frantic call over the radio that our ground
troops are taking fire they need immediate assistance, and.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
It's kind of like, okay, it's go time.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
You know. This is everything that we train for, Like
we're going to figure it out, Like we have to
figure out a way to get below the weather.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
And my flight.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Leag just very quickly is like all right, let's go,
you know, and he puts me in position and we're
going to go find this a hole above the location
where the ground troops are, and we're going to find
a way down. And we find out that our friendlies
are hunkered down on one side of the Tiger's River
on the west side. Enemies over on the east side.
They're shooting at our guys, putting rocket propelled grenades into
(18:51):
their position, and so we just very quickly I watch
him like I'm information on him. All of a sudden,
I was like, I watch him just kind of rolling
and disappear. He's like, I'm going first stay up here,
and all of a sudden, I was like alone like
over the weather, and I'm like, all right, okay, we'll
see how this goes. And he says, all right, it's
your turn. And I kind of look down and find
(19:13):
this all in the clouds and then dive through and
as soon as I pop out below the weather, I
instance instantly see a firefight. I mean there are bright
flashes and smoke and tracers and everything going back and
forth across the river, and it's I'll say, it's very surreal.
It's kind of like this is what we train for,
you know, this is what we plan for, but like
(19:35):
this is it, you know. And then all of a sudden,
I start to see puffs of smoke next to me
and gray white and then bright flashes in the air
right next to my cockpit, and I very quickly realized like,
not only is there this firefight now on the ground,
but now they're shooting at us too.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Oh God, But we have.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
A mission to do and we're going to get in
there very quick. We used a couple passes of guns
and rockets on the enemy look and then because they're
shooting at us and we want to climb up and
kind of reassess the situation. As I'm pulling off target
from my very last pass, I just feel and hear
this huge explosion at the back of the airplane. Like
(20:15):
there is no doubt in my mind. I know immediately
that I'm hit, and it I try to equate it
like if you were in a car crash and got
rear ended, Like it just threw me in the airplane
and knocked me like where I could. The jet nosed forward,
and I suddenly like I have this ground rush of
Bagdad getting closer, and so my gut reaction, kind of
(20:37):
my instinctive reaction other than oh shit, is I pull
back on the control stick and absolutely nothing happened. Oh yeah,
like you know, this is not supposed to be happening
at all, And very quickly, you know, this is where
the training comes in. You know, I didn't have time
to think about it. I just quickly kind of went
(20:59):
into this muscle memory reaction, you know, I trying to
figure out what's going on. And I remember just kind
of looking down at my ejection handles and thinking not now,
like this is not what I want to eject over
Bagdad where we had just been engaging with the enemy,
Like this is not going to go well. Like time
(21:20):
is slowing down at this point and these things are
going through my mind, and I remember just quickly kind
of trying to figure out with all the flashing lights,
the jets not responding, and I'm trying to figure out
what's happening, and I very quickly realized that my hydraulics,
which is what allows us to control the airplane, they're gone,
like completely depleted, gone. And at this point I know
that my choices are eject not good, not a good choice.
(21:43):
And then thankfully we have a backup emergency system on
the airplane, and I just hope that it works, and
I flip the switch and thankfully the jet just starts
slowly kind of climbing up to get out of bagdad.
And that was probably the first moment I'm like, Okay,
I think I think I'm going to survive this. My
first little bit of like I can breathe now, and
all of that was probably like, I don't know, ten
(22:05):
twenty seconds, like it just it all happens so fast.
But thankfully, you know, that's why we train, That's why
we do hard things, that's why they put us through
those painful exercises. Is also that when that moment happens
that you never think you'll go through, that you're ready.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
It's like allowing the body to be able to still
function when all of that stuff goes on. Is yeah, everything,
Like even just hearing about it brings up so much.
I feel my body responding. I'm like, oh, yeah to
me too. This is I guess I can feel it
off you. I'm like, you can. It's you're not just
(22:41):
telling the story. I can tell that it's still very
vivid for you.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Yeah, which is crazy because it's been twenty years, but
it is very like at what I'm talking about and
in picturing it, and it's just you know, it's like
after okay, now the jets flying, and what do I
really want to do. I just want to shut down
and be done with it, you know, get out of
the air, like like land and get out. But I
have an hour trip home to our base, like I'm
(23:05):
not done yet, Like this is just like okay, this
is survival one. Like now I've got to fly this
heavily damaged airplane that's not flying well. There's pieces of
the airplane flying off as we're making our way back home,
and now I've got to fly the airplane back and
make a decision that do I get back to our
friendly territory and eject and have friendly helicopters come get me,
(23:29):
or do I actually try to land it. And I
will tell you that was probably the worst decision the
toughest decision I've ever had to make in my life,
because I felt like, you know, you could die trying,
you know, it could make the wrong decision and it's
not going to go well.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
But and that was what was the cost of What
was the cost of making the decision to eject over
to land it? Why would you not want to make
that decision.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
So the jet was flying pretty well, which was good,
you know, all things considered. I know, it kind of
sounds funny to say this beat up airplane but was
flying pretty well. So you know, it's kind of like
a little breather moment. And I started thinking through it.
And my wingman, right, he's with me the whole time
I'm talking to him. He's giving me descriptions of my airplane,
(24:21):
telling me that I've got hundreds of holes in the fuse,
slodge and tail section, whole, about the size of a
football on the back horizontal stabilizer. I mean, none of
it really sounded very good. But we really talked about
the pros and cons of each and you know, he
told me that it was my decision, like he was
going to back me up no matter what. Which was
(24:42):
I mean, it was awesome, and that he believed in me,
he trusted me, he had confidence in me, but also
like really terrifying because now I had to make this decision.
And my thought process was, you know, ejection is relatively
safe as you rock it out of an airplane. You know,
ten g's or twenty g's whatever it is a lot,
(25:04):
I think twenty.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
And have you simulated that in your training? Was there
a simulation of ejecting? So I'm literally about to do
something that you can't. You have no reference point of
what that will feel like.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
No, we simulate like pulling the ejection handles, but the
forces really can damage your body. And when I started
flying to fly in an ejection seat aircraft, I had
to sign a waiver because I was below a cutoff
(25:37):
weight that required a waiver, which just said that I
was aware that if I had to eject because of
my lower body weight, I would be at risk of
increased flailing injuries. Of course, at the time I signed
the damn waiver, I was like, whatever I want to fly,
that's going to happen exactly right. So I signed the
waiver and then like that waiver is suddenly like in
(26:00):
my ear, like flailing injuries. What does that mean exactly?
Speaker 2 (26:04):
You know?
Speaker 1 (26:06):
So that's one thing.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
The other thing is the ejection seat is also rated
for zero feet and zero knots, which means that theoretically
I could it could be my last ditch effort, right,
I could try to land it, and then if everything
goes poorly, I could still eject. So I felt like
it was still my last ditch decision. But after flying
the airplane for an hour, going through all of our
(26:30):
checks and procedures, and then getting into friendly territory and
doing a controllability check, which means we get the gear
down kind of see how it's flying, get to an
approach speed, it felt pretty good, like as better than
I expected maybe, And I was just like, you know what,
I just it was like this gut feeling. I was like,
I can land this airplane. I can do this. It
(26:52):
was just I don't know, it's a little crazy. Like
I felt super confident in landing despite being totally terrified,
which seems like this dichotomy, right, Like I was confident
but also scared, like, yeah, it could go terribly wrong.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
In the little reference point that I was writing before,
it said that you knew of three other pilots that
had attempted to land using the manual reversion.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Yeah, that's our backup system.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
And one headcut will the aircraft and died. Like was
that going through your mind? Oh?
Speaker 3 (27:24):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
You know.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
I had read a book about these pilots and Desert Storm.
We had had some of the Desert Storm pilots come
talk to us, you know, usually in a bar and
a Friday night, telling stories, and so their stories definitely
were with me. You know, we learned a lot of
lessons from those experiences. We changed some of our checklist procedures.
You know, that's the whole idea, is that every accident fatality,
(27:49):
you know, we learned from it so it doesn't happen again.
And that was very much on my mind. And you know,
the positive side is I knew about these stories. I
knew about their lessons, and I use some of those
techniques and strategies that they had talked about on my
way back. So it's a little bit of a reminder
of like when we share stories and lessons with others,
you know, you never know when it's going to help
(28:10):
or make a difference for them. But yeah, I knew
about those stories. I knew about the lessons. I knew,
you know, what caused the cartwheel down the runway, and
so that was very much in my mind making my
way back. But I also knew that one pilot had
successfully landed it, so I knew there was there was
some hope that I could do it too.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
But I just sent a good outcome.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Yeah, great, great odds. Yeah, I just I guess it
was kind of like there's no great decision, right, there's
no winning decision on any of this, and uh, I
just went with what felt right, knowing that, you know,
I had to live or die with it. That sounds terrible,
(28:55):
but I guess I can say, you know, I just
I was going to go with the best decision. I
was going to make the best decision I could with
the information I had, and.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Go with it. What was the moment of landing, Like.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
I've yet It's been twenty years and I've yet to
find the word that describes this for me, because it
was such like immense relief, like just a total like
just the weight lifted, like it just I hit the
ground and it was like I survived, like I lived.
(29:28):
It was just such a like an outpouring of like relief,
and then I, you know, still had to get the
airplane stopped, keep it on the runway with no brakes,
no steering, you know, trying to So it was like
a temporary moment and then it was like, okay, I
have still somewhork to do. It's just utter tremendous relief.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
No brakes and you would have been going at quite
a speed. How long? How okay, yeah, how long did
to pull?
Speaker 3 (29:53):
You do have? We have an emergency braking system that
gives us five break applications, so I at least had some.
I didn't have normal breaks. Normally we have big speed
brakes that come open on our wings that you know,
open to slow us down. We have our breaks that
you can use as much as you want. But I
had five, and so it was like, okay, just do
(30:14):
my best to keep the airplane on the runway and
then thankfully very long runway that I landed on, and
it was it was no, it was not. That was
like the least of my worries at that point. I
was just trying to slow down and as the fire
trucks are coming at me because they you know, they
know that I the call had gone out that you know,
I had taken this significant battle damage, and so lots
(30:35):
of people kind of line the runway waiting.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
To see me come home.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
These were my fellow like maintenance crew chiefs, the other pilots,
they were you know, they were they stopped take off
temporarily as they came in, so lots of people kind
of waiting in the airplanes. And when I touched down. Sorry,
this is the part that I remember most was like
(30:59):
you know, the but then like hearing all the guys
on the radio, like these are my brothers, and they were,
you know, just totally broke like all radio discipline and
they're like, you know, just yeah, good job, you know,
welcome home. And it was just like that was what
hit me. I was like, oh, you know, like I
made it, Like and here I have this awesome group
of brothers and a few sisters that were there like.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
To welcoming home.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
It was just it was very overwhelming, to say the least,
like maybe that's a good word, overwhelming, Like it was
just like the thing that you think will never happen
to you, and to survive it and come back and
then just be totally welcomed home by your unit, you know,
my squadron, Like it was awesome in many ways, you know,
just to be this like tremendous relief of being on
(31:45):
the ground, but then just knowing that I had this
huge group of people supporting me and believing me and
cheering me on along the.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Way, and the relief in their voices, like knowing that,
you know, because if the worst happened, it wasn't just
happening to you, It was happening to you and the
crew and the people that are helping you down.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Yeah, one of the safety officer who was we have
a safety officer and our squadron, and he was told
to go film the landing and he's a good friend
of ours, and he said he like, you know, had
the camera out and probably some old school cameras. Two
(32:25):
thousand and three. He had the camera out, was get like,
you know, watching me come in and he just was like,
I can't do it. He's like, if she crashes, I
do not ever want her husband to see this video. So,
like my husband was also an A ten pilot. He
wasn't there, but you know that's the they were scared,
you know, they like they had no idea what was
going to happen. They didn't you know, they knew a
(32:46):
little bit of the damage, but they were like, all right.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
She's doing this.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
You know, the idea of hearing that I was going
to land in this emergency backup system that had caused
accidents and fatalities in the past. I think, you know,
there's just a lot of fear and worry and like
what was going to happen? Like they were kind of
feeling a lot of what I was feeling too.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Oh, how amazing before when you were talking about the
letters and that reluctancy to want to open them and
read them, Like, I wonder if I wonder if like
that would discover a level of you not really like
now you have this perspective of actually the risk and yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Wonder if you think, well, maybe I didn't.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Take it seriously, so knowing that it was such a
became so close to a reality, not having written what
you really would want to have written.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Yeah, if you'd known, Like.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
The mind's a funny thing when it I think we
shut out a lot of what we don't want to.
It's like you land and then you realize you've just
you've landed, and you were in the middle of that
the whole time, but your mind's probably like we're ignoring
that that's never happened, and then when you come through it,
it's like.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
That could have happened.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Yeah, but here's like here's the I don't know the positive.
Maybe I'm an optimist or I just like to look
at this in terms of like the good that came
out of it, Like that happened when I was twenty
four years old, recently married, no kids. Talk about like
a life changing moment to make you focus on what's
really important in life. You know, Like my husband and
(34:26):
I had some obviously some deep conversations, but we had
never really talked about like full on, like how important
you know, different things in our lives were. I think
it helped us make different choices. It helped us with
our priorities. It helped us really focus on some things
you know, that we might have been worried about before.
We're like, eh, that's not important. What is important is this?
(34:47):
And so you know, a couple of years into our marriage,
we're having conversations about life and death and priorities and
kids and what we really want in life, and it just.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
I think that's like the blessing of it.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
All is like, I through this really hard thing, but
it taught me so much about myself. It taught me
so much about like teamwork in terms of like my
wingman and his support and you know, being there for
somebody when they need it, you know, they're just I
don't know, there was so much goodness that came out
of it. I don't know. I guess I'm a believer
that things happened for a reason and trying to figure out,
(35:18):
then how do I take this and share with others
and help others too.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I'm the same, I really, I really think like the
whole everything happened for a reason can be cliche, but
if you can find the reason behind things, if you
can find the meaning, that it gives you. Everything in
my life that I love the most, that I really
really value and cherish, everything comes from an experience that hurt,
(35:46):
an experience that was painful, that was hard to get through,
that was that caused me resentment at times, and then
you come through that and you've got this most precious
stuff that you've uncovered in the process.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
I think about like the relationships that I built on
that deployment with the guys in my unit, Like the
guys in my squadron like they're my brothers, Like they
just like there was something about it, especially being the
Initially I was the only woman in the squadron. Obviously
there was a little consternation or like how would I
(36:20):
be Could I fly the airplane? You know, lots of
questions which you know, buying fair whatever, And then we
go to combat and this happens, and I think it
was just like let all that go, Like there was
never a question again of was I credible or capable
in the airplane. Like it was just like, yeah, turns
out she is. And it was never like a thing
after that. And they just like that unit that the
(36:44):
squadron that I was with with, we're you know, we're
friends to this day. We keep in contact, and it's
just the relationships that you build when you go through
hard things together, I think is really important too.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Oh I love that. What do you do now? Now?
Speaker 3 (36:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (36:59):
I know crazy.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
It's been twenty three years. So I went on to
serve another twenty years in the Air Force. After that,
I flew more missions in combat. I ended up leading teams,
small teams, also large teams as a squadron commander and
group commander, which for us is about a thousand people,
and I loved it. You know, I kind of found
this passion and purpose in life. I ended up spending
(37:22):
my last three years in service back at the Air
Force Academy, back where I started. I got to teach
cadets and you know, this next generation of leaders. And
then I spent my final year as a director at
the Center for Character and Leadership Development, which was like
this perfect dream job. And you know, it was one
of those things like I was kind of looking at
the end of my career, end of flying, and I
(37:44):
was like, gosh, you know, for so long my passion
and purpose was supporting our troops on the ground.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
You know, that was it.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
And it was just like a little sad when that
chapter closed, and to have this job where I suddenly
felt passion and purpose again in terms of character and
leadership development and helping our next generation. So I was
as I was getting ready to retire and trying to
figure out what I was going to do with my life.
You know, I was like, you know it is it's
this leadership development, it's personal development. It's sharing stories to
(38:14):
help people on their on their on their journey and
to try to make a difference in some way. And
I just I started speaking initially to various teams and
organizations throughout the military initially, and then to businesses and corporations,
and it really just despite COVID for a couple of years,
(38:35):
then really kicked off and now I am a full
time keynote speaker. I get to speak with various teams
and organizations around the country a few international events as well,
which is super fun for me because I love to
travel and uh. And then I wrote a book. And
I never thought I would be an author. I just
never It was never on my list of things. And
(38:59):
it took me about three year to write and a
year to publish. But I wrote a book about many
of these stories and the lessons I learned, and I
felt like, you know, a book about a ten pilots
is how I kind of survived a pretty difficult time
in my life. And so it's a lot more than
flying stories. It's leadership stories as well my time as
a military leader. But you know, it's been really really
(39:20):
rewarding to connect with audiences, to connect with readers and
just you know, hear how either my book or my
speech has changed their life. In some way, and so
it's given me that passion and purpose Again, what.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Sparked the idea of the book? Did someone say you
should write a book? Or did you just start to
think I've got a lot of stories.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Somebody pushed me to write a book. A little bit.
I was teaching a class at the Air Force Academy
and one of the other instructors who has more experienced
he had spent some time in the army and then
retire and went on to get a PhD, written several books,
and he sat in on one of my classes, and
the way I taught class was by telling stories. When
(40:00):
I noticed that the young cadets generally paid attention in
the stories and therefore generally paid attention and the lessons
a little bit better. And we walked out and he said,
you've got some great stories and some great lessons. You
should write a book. And I kind of laughed them off.
I was like, huh, not an author. I don't even
know how to write a book. And he kind of
looked at me and he's like, Kim, I'm serious, Like
(40:21):
you need to write the book. And he said, so,
I'll take your first chapter in December when the cadets
are gone for break and I was like, what I said,
I'm serious, write me a first chapter. And I was like,
all right, I'll write you a first chapter. I had
no structure, no outline, no thesis, no no nothing. I
just started writing. Not the recommended approach, by the way,
(40:42):
but I just started writing, which was actually really fun,
very cathartic in some ways. I got to look up
all these old like all these letters I had written
to my parents during my time at the Air Force Academy,
and when I was deployed, I went and found these
old emails and read, you know, just all this old
stuff that I had, you know, been able to pull out,
(41:03):
looked at old pictures and just brought so much back
and it was actually a really fun experience. It just
took me a long time because I was still serving
and had a lot of other things going on in
my life.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
But yeah, you know, I'm over time. I figured out
what I.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Wanted to do with the book.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
I cut out a lot.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
You know, it's amazing when you if you just start writing,
then you have a lot of stuff that's going to
go in a different file, that's not going to be published,
but you know it was a really fun process. I
still it's kind of funny. I'm like, I'm actually an author,
Like I've published a book, seriously, Like it's one of
those like I didn't think I was going to do that.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
That's really cool.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Talk to me a little bit about character, developing character.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
That's interesting.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
Yeah, it's you know, it's one of those tough conversations
of like, how do you teach character? Can you teach character?
Do people have to show up with character? Are they
born with it or does it come from their family?
And what we you know, what we really came to is,
especially at the Air Force Academy, cadets are coming from
all different backgrounds, all different walks of life. They've had
(42:02):
different experiences in their life, some good, some bad, and
so how do we you know, start on an even
playing field, if you will, Like, how do we again
share stories and show examples? And you know, for us,
it's all about like these people, these young cadets are
going to graduate and become lieutenants and they're going to
have to lead people at a very young age, and
(42:23):
we want them to make the right decisions, the good decisions,
honorable decisions when nobody's watching, you know, when it's those
tough times. And so we use a process called a
framework that we use which is about living honorably, lifting
others and then elevating performance.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
And the whole idea is initially right.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
We have to start with ourselves. Can we live honorably,
have courage and character and all of those things that
go into living honorably, and then we can start to
lift others. Then we can work with others to ideally
elevate the performance of the team. But you know, I
find again and it's amazing what stories do and examples
do to help teach people and show them the good
(43:06):
and the bad. Right, we have some not so great examples,
but we can learn from those as well. It was
a fantastic experience, you know, I learned a lot myself,
surrounded by amazing people that were, you know, experts in
character and leadership development.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
What is your definition of character?
Speaker 3 (43:24):
Hmm, that's a great question. I think I go away
from kind of the book to definition and just really
just in terms of what I think. I think it's
you know, what we what we think, what we say,
what we do in line with our values and our morals.
(43:45):
And then you know, you have personal morals and values.
But also you know, the Air Force, for example, has values.
I think it's important that you know, if you're on
a team or in a business, that you set values
for your company, for your team, so everybody kind of
can fall online and at least understand the values that
they're expected to uphold.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Yeah, I actually put it into chat JBT before I
asked you. I was like, oh, good, Yeah, I've never
thought of the definition before. It rambles on all it
and I'll just read the first talk. It says number
one personal integrity and moral strength. So character is often
used to describe a person's ethical and moral qualities such
as honesty, integrity, courage, and resilience. And I love that
(44:28):
because they're actually my integrity is one of my highest values,
and honesty, courage, and resilience. There are three things I
bang on about a lot, So I love that. I've
never thought a lot about character as a definition.
Speaker 3 (44:42):
That's exactly what we talk about living honorably. There's like
nine characteristics that fall under that, and those are all listed.
Could I probably couldn't lift off list off all nine
at the moment, but those are those are definitely you know,
four of them. Those are the things that we're trying
to teach young people that we're well young people, young leaders,
new leaders, probably some experienced ones as well. You know,
those are just those are important things in life.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
What are you last question? What's on resilience? Do you
think that I feel like in recent years resilience like
we have such access to people's opinions as knowledge or education,
which isn't always a great thing. What's your definition of
resilience and do you think that that people are getting
(45:29):
it wrong, getting getting a misunderstanding around what it is
and how to achieve it.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
I guess for me, it's.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
You become more resilient by doing hard things.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Right, When we do hard things, it makes us better
at doing hard things.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
I look at my kids sometimes and.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
I see fear of failure, fear of being judged, fear
of failing. I think I said that one already because
it's a big one.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Three. Yeah, we're scared of it.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
Yeah, it's like not meaning expectations, you know, fear of
the unknown, fear of things being changed. It's just like this,
this fear of that if you don't put yourself out there,
if you're not afraid and do it, anyway, then how
will you become more resilient? Right, Like, you have to
like put yourself out there, whether it's like it's the
(46:24):
things I little things I talk to my kids about about,
like go try out for the sports team, Like what's
the worst that's going to happen. You're not going to
make it, you know, it's the kids will make fun
of me, whatever it is. But like, if you don't
experience some sort of mistakes and failure your life, you're
never going to get better, Like you're never going to
make it to that next step. And so I think
it is resilience about continuing to push yourself to do
(46:46):
hard things. That's how we become more resilient. We don't
become resilient because we've had some class, or we've had
a lecture, or we've had some group bonding session. I mean,
that's how you build trust and that helps with resilience
of a team. But to me, it's doing hard things.
I Mean when we look at like that's why we
do basic training in the military, that's why we do
these exercises that make you so stressed because you're worried
(47:10):
about failing. You're worried abo what people are thinking, you know,
but you're practicing in this very high stress environment environment
so that you can fail, so that you will make mistakes,
so that the next time you've learned from it and
you're better because of it. I think it's not that
we're getting it wrong. It's just almost like there's this
massive fear that people face, and so they're not willing
(47:30):
to put themselves out there. I mean, that's part of
the reason I titled the book Flying in the Face
of Fear. Yeah, it's just it is about facing fear.
It's about being afraid and doing it anyway. I mean,
I look back on my life and I realized I
felt fear a lot. Like I was worried. I had
doubts so many different times and times from related to
military related in life, like being a single mom when
(47:53):
my husband deployed, like being a commander and a leader
and worrying about what people would think or would I
be good enough. You know, you will faced outs, but
what if I didn't do those things, like just because
I was scared. You know, it is about you're going
to have to put yourself out there. You're gonna have
to make yourself uncomfortable, but you will be stronger for it.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
You know, when I think about the resilience training and
like the interrogation training that you guys in the Air
Force have in order to develop combat soldiers, I also
think about and I think this is what we miss,
especially as the world moves forward in the direction it
has the last few years and continues to is you
(48:34):
guys had camaraderie and connection. You had this really intimate
group and a relationship to support the hard and I
think in today's world we can be so isolated, always on,
always busy, always getting tugged and pulled, and always thinking.
So that's why I think sometimes the messaging of just
(48:57):
do the hard thing leaves something out for the general person,
and I reckon, Yeah, I think loneliness and disconnection it
can wreak havoc on people trying to get resilient. Yeah,
realizing that there's a big there's a hole in their bucket.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
Doing hard things is a hell of a lot easier
when you have a team to support you, you know,
when you know someone's going to have your back. Yeah,
but yeah, it is. It's hard, it's uncomfortable, it's but
it's worth it, right, Like when we do something hard,
when we put ourselves out there, like, you learn a lot.
You like, yeah, you're going to get knocked down physically, mentally,
(49:36):
you're going to get beat up sometimes. But can you
get back up now? Can you dust yourself off? Can
you get back in the fight? I mean that's really
what it's about.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Yeah, I love chatting to you. You're brilliant. Thank you,
Sean m Fun did it already go with? This?
Speaker 3 (49:50):
Time already went by?
Speaker 1 (49:51):
I know it's flown.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
Would you like to share where my listeners can find you,
follow you by your book and access anything that you
might like to promote.
Speaker 3 (50:01):
Yeah. Absolutely. My website is Kim Dash kse dashcampbell dot
com and that has links to all my social media
LinkedIn X old, Twitter, Instagram, all out there, but Kim
K C. Campbell And that's that's probably the easiest. And
(50:21):
I say this and not many people take me up
on it, but like I'm serious, Like everyone that's listening,
like if there was a question that we didn't answer
or something that you want to know about, like reach out,
Like I love it because I love that opportunity to interact.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
In terms of the book, it's available.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
Amazon is probably like the most international place to get it.
It's now available in paperback as well, and it's Flying
in the Face of Fear of fighter pilot's lessons, I'm
leading with courage.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Oh so good, so great. Thank you so much again,
it's been such a pleasure, and thanks everyone for tuning in.
Go by the book and fly in the face of fear.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
Love it. Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
Stand
Good day, Legends.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Welcome to another episode of Roll with the Punches podcast.
I'm your host, Tiff Cook, and today I am speaking
to an absolute weapon.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Her name is Kim K. C. Campbell.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
She's a former us FIDER pilot and far out does.
She have stories that are going to make your heart race.
We're talking about doing the impossible. We're talking about living
on the edge of not being here anymore. We're talking
about courage, fear, resilience, greatness, all of the things that
life is about. And I loved it and I hope
(00:36):
you love it too. Nobody wants to go to court,
and don't. My friends are test Art Family Lawyers. Know
that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. Their
team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in all
areas of family law to facto and same sex couples,
custody and children, family violence and intervention orders, property set
(00:59):
on my and financial agreements. Test Art is in your corner,
so reach out to Mark and the team at www
dot test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Kim Campbell Welcome to Roll with the Punches.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward
to the conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Oh mate, you bloody superstar.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I Like I said, I was just having a having
a last minute read about you and looking at some
photos online and it actually it actually made me shudder.
I was had goosebumps and was shaddering going for far
out And I guess it's something about I'm female and
your female. It's something about you being female that made
(01:43):
that more of a reality for me. It was like, whoa,
you're not just it's just more relatable. Not really, no,
I'm not frying planes.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Well, I think it's about doing hard things, and I
think it's sometimes we you know, without telling the story right,
It's like there are things in life that I never
thought that I would be capable of doing, and then
you're in a situation and you do it, you know,
because well for me, there's nobody else flying the airplane
(02:14):
but me. But it's just about doing hard things and
getting through them. And I think that's super relatable. No
matter what career, field, or profession that you're in, we
face hard things. There are things that are unimaginable that
we would have to face in our lives, and then
we do and it just continues to build resilience and
make us better, although terrifying in the process.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, I find that life for me is far better
and more enriching when I have something that I love
that forces me into that high level of discomfort and
hard things like that pushes those buttons in a way
that I also walk away and go, God, that's my
thing for me. Boxing getting punched in the face, getting
(02:59):
pummeled and put challenged, and dealing with your own inner
thoughts and your own reactions to it, and then walking
away and going half of the time, oh, this is
the worst thing ever. What do I even show up?
And then half the time going that moment, those moments there,
that's why I show up. But it's all because it
(03:20):
relates to life. Because I see stuff in those places
that I see in everyday life, and it gives me
I don't know, I guess, somewhere to practice doing life.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
I think about like as this ten year old little
girl with this crazy dream of wanting to be a
fighter pilot. I mean, and keep in mind, when I
was ten, it was nineteen eighty six and women were
not allowed to be fighter pilots. So what made this
little girl have this crazy dream? And I will tell
you at the time, like I had no idea really
what I was getting myself into, but for me, it
(03:53):
was like this thriller flight, the excitement of it. And
the truth is I was watching the launch of the
Space Shuttle Challenger, which you know clearly ended in a tragedy,
but there was something about it that like stuck with
me in terms of these astronauts who are like willing
to give their life or something. And so I just
think about that moment of making that decision, not truly
(04:14):
knowing what I was getting myself into, but this desire,
you know, to go out and do something big that
was going to be challenging and hard, but it was
important to see where that dream started at ten and
me ending up spending twenty four years in the Air
Force as a fighter pilot. You know, I never imagine
(04:34):
the things that I would go through. Some incredible opportunities,
but some really shitty times to be quite honest, you know,
some huge challenges, but also those challenges like those those
are the moments that I look back on and I
know they made me a better person. You know, they
made be a better leader, they made me a better pilot.
(04:54):
I feel like they made me a better mom. I
think it's when we do hard things, like we come
out stronger on the other side, like it makes us better.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, what like as you were talking about that, and
I'm trying to visualize this ten year old girl, and
part of me like all the questions you're coming in,
I'm like, what a blessing to firstly know what you
want to do.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
In life as a ten year old and end up
doing it.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
And then I was like, yeah, but Kim had picked
like this outrageous thing, and all ten year old want
to do something outrageous, and then life takes sweeps away
and we do something mediocre. But how did you at
what point in life? How old were you when you
when you realized that, A, it's not a reality for women,
(05:37):
and you thought you'd do it anyway, And then like,
did you ever think I'm pushing for this but it's
not a reality.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
So the funny thing is, I guess maybe I was
a little naive. I mean, I was tan, so I'll
give myself a break here. But like my parents never said, hey,
women can't do that. My parents just said, all right,
well it's going to be really hard. I think the
truth is they didn't think I was going to go
through with it either, and they were like, well, it's
going to be really hard. You better work hard in school.
(06:04):
Like to them, it was like, oh, finally she'll work
hard in school, she'll pay attention. We won't have to
nagger on our homework. So they were just like, all right,
if you're going to do is you know, you got
to do it right it really you know, I think
a few years later, like as I, you know, continue
to work hard in school and really start working out,
and you know, because of the physical side of all this,
(06:25):
my dad was like, oh, she's going to go through
with this. And you know, for him at that point
kind of seeing my determination and seeing me go after it,
you know, we never talked about like the rules and
the policies. It was like, okay, just work hard and
go after what you wanted. And my dad had been
in the Air Force and he had gone to the
Air Force Academy, which is the path for me for
becoming a fighter pilot. And so he was like, look,
(06:48):
we're going to run together in combat boots and these
hills around the house. He's and I ran track and
cross country and played soccer, so upper body strength wasn't
a thing for me, and he said, you're going to
have to be able to do pull ups and push ups.
He installed a pull up bar in the bathroom, so
every time I went in and out, I was doing
pull ups, you know. And so I think it was
just this point in my life where he realized, like,
(07:10):
she's actually going to do this, and he wanted to
do everything to support me. I just I never paid
attention to the like the thought that I couldn't do
something like nobody had ever said you can't do that.
I certainly had people question it, like, really, that's what
you want to do. It wasn't until high school when
I was doing some research for speech and debate and
I was like, wait a second. It was a women
(07:31):
in combat debate and I was like, I didn't you
know it kind of like the reality of it set in. Thankfully,
the rules changed when I graduated high school, so you know,
I wasn't the first I didn't have to break that
glass ceiling, but certainly one of few women fighter pilots
at the time.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah, it also really reflects what a massive role there
it have in and how lucky we can be when
they have a mind set like that, Like how fortunate
that dad didn't have limiting beliefs that came out and
onto you and shut that down. Luck to be able
to say, let's do this. You know, he at least thought, well,
(08:12):
at the very worst, she'll be a gun. She'll him
and she'll do the work. She'll get good grades, and
she'll have a weapon of an up body.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
She will have a complot out.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
I think he definitely had doubts, Like he had some concerns,
you know, as a dad about a little girl going
off to do this. So he definitely had doubts and concerns.
But what he shared with me was more just like,
all right, if you're going to do this, you're going
to do it right, because it's going to be hard.
You know. He never really sugarcoated it either. Yeah, which
I very much appreciate and certainly set an example for
(08:44):
me now with my kids who are now twelve and sixteen,
you know, when they talk about what they want to
do and how I can help support them on their journey.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Twelve and sixteen, so in one year, your eldest will
be seventeen, the age that you've had your first solo flight.
That child is that is it a boy?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Or a girl.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
They're both boys.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah, Okay, when.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
You look at that particular son, do you think, oh,
within the next twelve months, you could just fly playing
solo and that was you Like, how does that make
you feel?
Speaker 3 (09:17):
It's terrifying.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
You know, it's amazing you're an adult.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
But when you become an adult and then you see
your seveneen year old life, that's a child.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yes, yeah, I realize now some of the things that
I put my parents through, you know, I realize, you know,
choosing this career path and choosing some of the things
I've done, you know, going off to solo practically at
the same time I was learning to drive a car,
I mean, deploying to Afghanistan and Iraq, Like I just,
(09:50):
I like, I think about that for my kids, and
it's terrifying for me. I just it scares me. And
at the time, I mean, I knew it would be hard
for my parents, but I had no idea like what
that would feel like. And so yeah, it's very interesting
now looking back.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Talk about, yeah, of having your first deployment and going
out to serve what was that, Like, how old were
you then?
Speaker 3 (10:15):
So I graduated from the Air Force Academy spent a
couple of years at grad school in the UK, which
is a fantastic experience, something you know, a little bit
different than being in a military institution. And then I
went off to pilot training, and then from pilot training,
it's another year before you can get qualified for combat
mission ready. But I was in A ten training. A
(10:36):
ten is the airplane that I flew, which is a
close air support airplane, so our roles to support troops
on the ground. And I was in a ten training
when nine to eleven happened, and I think at that
point we all kind of knew that our lives were
going to change pretty rapidly. We finished up training in
a couple months, I showed up to my squadron and
(10:58):
a few months later we deployed to Afghanistan. I mean
talk about like pressure in terms like you hope that
all the training and all the effort that you put in,
like you want to do well, you want to perform
for the troops on the ground. Do you want to
be there when they need it? So that was my
very first apployment was Afghanistan in two thousand and two,
and then very quickly we turn around and went to
(11:19):
Iraq in two thousand and three, which is hence the
Wikipedia page that you were referring to.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah, yeah, what when you first take off? Like I guess,
training is such a process that I just always think
of the mindset of the reality of perspective of like
you're going to you're going into combat, you're going into conflict,
you're going into danger, going into essentially save people and
(11:48):
do the opposite to people, And so there has to
be a level of kind of almost dehumanizing that, like
you're going you train, you do it. How much of
that is there? Any of that steal lingers where you go, shit,
I'm a human, this is terrifying.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Can I do this?
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Or are you? Are you so trained that that environment
is just second nature now, Like when I punch someone
in the face in the boxing ring, I'm not hurting anyone,
Like I'm hitting as hard as I can, but there's
no malice.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
I'm not trying to hurt a human being.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
It's a process, Yeah, and it's the purpose behind it too.
I think for me, I think, you know, we go
through so much training, so much so it's like it's
just like muscle memory in terms of some of the
things that we do, and we you know, obviously the
initial training is very just what if the aircraft fails,
and instruments and the process of the airplane and the
(12:42):
systems of the airplane, and then as things as you
progress in training, now you're in a simulated combat environment.
We do huge exercises and they make the stress level very,
very high to try to put you in like a
stress level of being in combat. They simulated shoot at us.
You know, there's lots of things that they can simulate,
(13:02):
but I will tell you that there is nothing quite
like actually getting shot at. There's nothing like actually being
in combat. I mean, as much as we talked about it,
you know, I think part of it is like we
were at the time young. I felt like a little invincible, right,
I don't know, like the I never personally dehumanized it.
I think for me, like it was important for me
(13:24):
to know what I was doing. And I think more
it was like this purpose of my role is to
save our forces on the ground. Sometimes that means we
have to take lives. But I looked at it more
on saving lives. You know, here I'm helping people to
get home to their families. I think keeping it human
and keeping the purpose behind it was for me kind
(13:46):
of what kept me going and you know, to maybe
think less about the negative side. Not like I understood
what I was doing very clearly, but I understood the
reason why behind it.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
I love that talked to me about the two thousand
and three the incident.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Yeah, you know, it's crazy because I was still pretty
I mean I was fairly new in the airplane, a
new wingman in my squadron. I'm sure we had an
Afghanistan deployment, but that was very different. When we went
to Iraq in two thousand and three, I didn't even
know if I was going to get to fly. I mean,
I was just young in the squadron, and I thought,
maybe they'll just have me making maps and you know,
(14:26):
our lineup cards. And then very quickly quickly we realized
that we needed every pilot that we could get, and
you know, the war kicked off mid March. Started flying missions.
Because I was young, they compared me combat paired me
with a very experienced pilot. So we fly in formation.
(14:49):
We always have a wingman, and I would fly with
an experienced pilot because I was less experienced.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Good for you, but don't want to how they felt.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
You know, I think I was a good wingman, but
I think you know they're watching you. You know, they're
making sure and but I tried to be a good wingman, right,
the good be in position, be on the radio, you know,
do what they want you to do, and try to
help where I could. But yeah, it was you know,
this was new for me, and in many ways it
(15:20):
was new for a lot of us. I mean, I
think Afghanistan was one thing, but Iraq the threat was different.
Our squadron commander said, you know, before we flew, talk
about a reality check. He made us write letters home
to our family so that if we didn't make it,
he would have a letter to deliver to us. And
I think his intent was like the gut reality check,
(15:41):
like you're not invincible, Like yes, you may be young,
you may have had an Afghanistan deployment, but you are
not invincible in this war is going to be different.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Yeah, that was like what was a lot to write
that letter.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
It was like, all right, I'll write it because I
have to, but this is going to happen to me, right,
Like this is I'll write it and it's crazy. I
still have the letters. I haven't opened them up, and
I don't know what will make me open them up.
I don't know if it's like a I just I can't.
So I still have the letters. He gave them all
back to us, but I wrote one to my parents,
(16:16):
I wrote one to my husband. I didn't have kids
at the time, and I wrote one to my brother.
And I think it was just this a little sobering,
like a little reality check of what we were about
to do, and a reminder to us like, hey, we've trained,
we've put in the work, but this is going to
be hard and you have to be at like your
peak performance. I didn't realize like how close I would
(16:39):
get to those letters, you know, needing to be delivered,
Like I just you know, before the war kicked off
and things were going pretty smoothly, and we're young and invincible,
so yeah, so we had flown for a couple of
weeks and our ground troops are making their way to
bag Dad pretty I mean, I don't want to say
(17:00):
there were quiet missions, but they were like you know,
the Sometimes the resistance wasn't there on the ground, which
meant that there wasn't much for us to do, and
occasionally we would come back with all our weapons, all
our ordnance. But I was learning on each mission, like okay,
as you're getting closer and closer to Baghdad, just getting
more comfortable, you know, building my confidence. And you know,
(17:20):
we certainly had to employ on some missions to help
our ground troops out, but nothing quite like this mission
on April third. And at this point in the war,
we were we would get a briefing in Kuwait, we'd
fly all the way up to Bagdad. It's about an
hour and a a ten. We would air refuel so
get gas while airborne, and then we would just go
(17:41):
into these stacks like stacked up airplanes around Baghdad because
our ground troops were constantly calling for support. And you know,
I remember that day, this was April seventh. The weather
was terrible, couldn't see the ground below, and we just
didn't think we were going to do anything. We kind
of thought, well, we have to be able to get
(18:01):
below the weather to help ground troops out, and we
didn't see a way to get below the weather, and
we just figured, you know, we're going to have to
go home.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
And then we kind of.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Get this frantic call over the radio that our ground
troops are taking fire they need immediate assistance, and.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
It's kind of like, okay, it's go time.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
You know. This is everything that we train for, Like
we're going to figure it out, Like we have to
figure out a way to get below the weather.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
And my flight.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Leag just very quickly is like all right, let's go,
you know, and he puts me in position and we're
going to go find this a hole above the location
where the ground troops are, and we're going to find
a way down. And we find out that our friendlies
are hunkered down on one side of the Tiger's River
on the west side. Enemies over on the east side.
They're shooting at our guys, putting rocket propelled grenades into
(18:51):
their position, and so we just very quickly I watch
him like I'm information on him. All of a sudden,
I was like, I watch him just kind of rolling
and disappear. He's like, I'm going first stay up here,
and all of a sudden, I was like alone like
over the weather, and I'm like, all right, okay, we'll
see how this goes. And he says, all right, it's
your turn. And I kind of look down and find
(19:13):
this all in the clouds and then dive through and
as soon as I pop out below the weather, I
instance instantly see a firefight. I mean there are bright
flashes and smoke and tracers and everything going back and
forth across the river, and it's I'll say, it's very surreal.
It's kind of like this is what we train for,
you know, this is what we plan for, but like
(19:35):
this is it, you know. And then all of a sudden,
I start to see puffs of smoke next to me
and gray white and then bright flashes in the air
right next to my cockpit, and I very quickly realized like,
not only is there this firefight now on the ground,
but now they're shooting at us too.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Oh God, But we have.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
A mission to do and we're going to get in
there very quick. We used a couple passes of guns
and rockets on the enemy look and then because they're
shooting at us and we want to climb up and
kind of reassess the situation. As I'm pulling off target
from my very last pass, I just feel and hear
this huge explosion at the back of the airplane. Like
(20:15):
there is no doubt in my mind. I know immediately
that I'm hit, and it I try to equate it
like if you were in a car crash and got
rear ended, Like it just threw me in the airplane
and knocked me like where I could. The jet nosed forward,
and I suddenly like I have this ground rush of
Bagdad getting closer, and so my gut reaction, kind of
(20:37):
my instinctive reaction other than oh shit, is I pull
back on the control stick and absolutely nothing happened. Oh yeah,
like you know, this is not supposed to be happening
at all, And very quickly, you know, this is where
the training comes in. You know, I didn't have time
to think about it. I just quickly kind of went
(20:59):
into this muscle memory reaction, you know, I trying to
figure out what's going on. And I remember just kind
of looking down at my ejection handles and thinking not now,
like this is not what I want to eject over
Bagdad where we had just been engaging with the enemy,
Like this is not going to go well. Like time
(21:20):
is slowing down at this point and these things are
going through my mind, and I remember just quickly kind
of trying to figure out with all the flashing lights,
the jets not responding, and I'm trying to figure out
what's happening, and I very quickly realized that my hydraulics,
which is what allows us to control the airplane, they're gone,
like completely depleted, gone. And at this point I know
that my choices are eject not good, not a good choice.
(21:43):
And then thankfully we have a backup emergency system on
the airplane, and I just hope that it works, and
I flip the switch and thankfully the jet just starts
slowly kind of climbing up to get out of bagdad.
And that was probably the first moment I'm like, Okay,
I think I think I'm going to survive this. My
first little bit of like I can breathe now, and
all of that was probably like, I don't know, ten
(22:05):
twenty seconds, like it just it all happens so fast.
But thankfully, you know, that's why we train, That's why
we do hard things, that's why they put us through
those painful exercises. Is also that when that moment happens
that you never think you'll go through, that you're ready.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
It's like allowing the body to be able to still
function when all of that stuff goes on. Is yeah, everything,
Like even just hearing about it brings up so much.
I feel my body responding. I'm like, oh, yeah to
me too. This is I guess I can feel it
off you. I'm like, you can. It's you're not just
(22:41):
telling the story. I can tell that it's still very
vivid for you.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Yeah, which is crazy because it's been twenty years, but
it is very like at what I'm talking about and
in picturing it, and it's just you know, it's like
after okay, now the jets flying, and what do I
really want to do. I just want to shut down
and be done with it, you know, get out of
the air, like like land and get out. But I
have an hour trip home to our base, like I'm
(23:05):
not done yet, Like this is just like okay, this
is survival one. Like now I've got to fly this
heavily damaged airplane that's not flying well. There's pieces of
the airplane flying off as we're making our way back home,
and now I've got to fly the airplane back and
make a decision that do I get back to our
friendly territory and eject and have friendly helicopters come get me,
(23:29):
or do I actually try to land it. And I
will tell you that was probably the worst decision the
toughest decision I've ever had to make in my life,
because I felt like, you know, you could die trying,
you know, it could make the wrong decision and it's
not going to go well.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
But and that was what was the cost of What
was the cost of making the decision to eject over
to land it? Why would you not want to make
that decision.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
So the jet was flying pretty well, which was good,
you know, all things considered. I know, it kind of
sounds funny to say this beat up airplane but was
flying pretty well. So you know, it's kind of like
a little breather moment. And I started thinking through it.
And my wingman, right, he's with me the whole time
I'm talking to him. He's giving me descriptions of my airplane,
(24:21):
telling me that I've got hundreds of holes in the fuse,
slodge and tail section, whole, about the size of a
football on the back horizontal stabilizer. I mean, none of
it really sounded very good. But we really talked about
the pros and cons of each and you know, he
told me that it was my decision, like he was
going to back me up no matter what. Which was
(24:42):
I mean, it was awesome, and that he believed in me,
he trusted me, he had confidence in me, but also
like really terrifying because now I had to make this decision.
And my thought process was, you know, ejection is relatively
safe as you rock it out of an airplane. You know,
ten g's or twenty g's whatever it is a lot,
(25:04):
I think twenty.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
And have you simulated that in your training? Was there
a simulation of ejecting? So I'm literally about to do
something that you can't. You have no reference point of
what that will feel like.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
No, we simulate like pulling the ejection handles, but the
forces really can damage your body. And when I started
flying to fly in an ejection seat aircraft, I had
to sign a waiver because I was below a cutoff
(25:37):
weight that required a waiver, which just said that I
was aware that if I had to eject because of
my lower body weight, I would be at risk of
increased flailing injuries. Of course, at the time I signed
the damn waiver, I was like, whatever I want to fly,
that's going to happen exactly right. So I signed the
waiver and then like that waiver is suddenly like in
(26:00):
my ear, like flailing injuries. What does that mean exactly?
Speaker 2 (26:04):
You know?
Speaker 1 (26:06):
So that's one thing.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
The other thing is the ejection seat is also rated
for zero feet and zero knots, which means that theoretically
I could it could be my last ditch effort, right,
I could try to land it, and then if everything
goes poorly, I could still eject. So I felt like
it was still my last ditch decision. But after flying
the airplane for an hour, going through all of our
(26:30):
checks and procedures, and then getting into friendly territory and
doing a controllability check, which means we get the gear
down kind of see how it's flying, get to an
approach speed, it felt pretty good, like as better than
I expected maybe, And I was just like, you know what,
I just it was like this gut feeling. I was like,
I can land this airplane. I can do this. It
(26:52):
was just I don't know, it's a little crazy. Like
I felt super confident in landing despite being totally terrified,
which seems like this dichotomy, right, Like I was confident
but also scared, like, yeah, it could go terribly wrong.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
In the little reference point that I was writing before,
it said that you knew of three other pilots that
had attempted to land using the manual reversion.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Yeah, that's our backup system.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
And one headcut will the aircraft and died. Like was
that going through your mind? Oh?
Speaker 3 (27:24):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
You know.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
I had read a book about these pilots and Desert Storm.
We had had some of the Desert Storm pilots come
talk to us, you know, usually in a bar and
a Friday night, telling stories, and so their stories definitely
were with me. You know, we learned a lot of
lessons from those experiences. We changed some of our checklist procedures.
You know, that's the whole idea, is that every accident fatality,
(27:49):
you know, we learned from it so it doesn't happen again.
And that was very much on my mind. And you know,
the positive side is I knew about these stories. I
knew about their lessons, and I use some of those
techniques and strategies that they had talked about on my
way back. So it's a little bit of a reminder
of like when we share stories and lessons with others,
you know, you never know when it's going to help
(28:10):
or make a difference for them. But yeah, I knew
about those stories. I knew about the lessons. I knew,
you know, what caused the cartwheel down the runway, and
so that was very much in my mind making my
way back. But I also knew that one pilot had
successfully landed it, so I knew there was there was
some hope that I could do it too.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
But I just sent a good outcome.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Yeah, great, great odds. Yeah, I just I guess it
was kind of like there's no great decision, right, there's
no winning decision on any of this, and uh, I
just went with what felt right, knowing that, you know,
I had to live or die with it. That sounds terrible,
(28:55):
but I guess I can say, you know, I just
I was going to go with the best decision. I
was going to make the best decision I could with
the information I had, and.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Go with it. What was the moment of landing, Like.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
I've yet It's been twenty years and I've yet to
find the word that describes this for me, because it
was such like immense relief, like just a total like
just the weight lifted, like it just I hit the
ground and it was like I survived, like I lived.
(29:28):
It was just such a like an outpouring of like relief,
and then I, you know, still had to get the
airplane stopped, keep it on the runway with no brakes,
no steering, you know, trying to So it was like
a temporary moment and then it was like, okay, I
have still somewhork to do. It's just utter tremendous relief.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
No brakes and you would have been going at quite
a speed. How long? How okay, yeah, how long did
to pull?
Speaker 3 (29:53):
You do have? We have an emergency braking system that
gives us five break applications, so I at least had some.
I didn't have normal breaks. Normally we have big speed
brakes that come open on our wings that you know,
open to slow us down. We have our breaks that
you can use as much as you want. But I
had five, and so it was like, okay, just do
(30:14):
my best to keep the airplane on the runway and
then thankfully very long runway that I landed on, and
it was it was no, it was not. That was
like the least of my worries at that point. I
was just trying to slow down and as the fire
trucks are coming at me because they you know, they
know that I the call had gone out that you know,
I had taken this significant battle damage, and so lots
(30:35):
of people kind of line the runway waiting.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
To see me come home.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
These were my fellow like maintenance crew chiefs, the other pilots,
they were you know, they were they stopped take off
temporarily as they came in, so lots of people kind
of waiting in the airplanes. And when I touched down. Sorry,
this is the part that I remember most was like
(30:59):
you know, the but then like hearing all the guys
on the radio, like these are my brothers, and they were,
you know, just totally broke like all radio discipline and
they're like, you know, just yeah, good job, you know,
welcome home. And it was just like that was what
hit me. I was like, oh, you know, like I
made it, Like and here I have this awesome group
of brothers and a few sisters that were there like.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
To welcoming home.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
It was just it was very overwhelming, to say the least,
like maybe that's a good word, overwhelming, Like it was
just like the thing that you think will never happen
to you, and to survive it and come back and
then just be totally welcomed home by your unit, you know,
my squadron, Like it was awesome in many ways, you know,
just to be this like tremendous relief of being on
(31:45):
the ground, but then just knowing that I had this
huge group of people supporting me and believing me and
cheering me on along the.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Way, and the relief in their voices, like knowing that,
you know, because if the worst happened, it wasn't just
happening to you, It was happening to you and the
crew and the people that are helping you down.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Yeah, one of the safety officer who was we have
a safety officer and our squadron, and he was told
to go film the landing and he's a good friend
of ours, and he said he like, you know, had
the camera out and probably some old school cameras. Two
(32:25):
thousand and three. He had the camera out, was get like,
you know, watching me come in and he just was like,
I can't do it. He's like, if she crashes, I
do not ever want her husband to see this video. So,
like my husband was also an A ten pilot. He
wasn't there, but you know that's the they were scared,
you know, they like they had no idea what was
going to happen. They didn't you know, they knew a
(32:46):
little bit of the damage, but they were like, all right.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
She's doing this.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
You know, the idea of hearing that I was going
to land in this emergency backup system that had caused
accidents and fatalities in the past. I think, you know,
there's just a lot of fear and worry and like
what was going to happen? Like they were kind of
feeling a lot of what I was feeling too.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Oh, how amazing before when you were talking about the
letters and that reluctancy to want to open them and
read them, Like, I wonder if I wonder if like
that would discover a level of you not really like
now you have this perspective of actually the risk and yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Wonder if you think, well, maybe I didn't.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Take it seriously, so knowing that it was such a
became so close to a reality, not having written what
you really would want to have written.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Yeah, if you'd known, Like.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
The mind's a funny thing when it I think we
shut out a lot of what we don't want to.
It's like you land and then you realize you've just
you've landed, and you were in the middle of that
the whole time, but your mind's probably like we're ignoring
that that's never happened, and then when you come through it,
it's like.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
That could have happened.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
Yeah, but here's like here's the I don't know the positive.
Maybe I'm an optimist or I just like to look
at this in terms of like the good that came
out of it, Like that happened when I was twenty
four years old, recently married, no kids. Talk about like
a life changing moment to make you focus on what's
really important in life. You know, Like my husband and
(34:26):
I had some obviously some deep conversations, but we had
never really talked about like full on, like how important
you know, different things in our lives were. I think
it helped us make different choices. It helped us with
our priorities. It helped us really focus on some things
you know, that we might have been worried about before.
We're like, eh, that's not important. What is important is this?
(34:47):
And so you know, a couple of years into our marriage,
we're having conversations about life and death and priorities and
kids and what we really want in life, and it just.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
I think that's like the blessing of it.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
All is like, I through this really hard thing, but
it taught me so much about myself. It taught me
so much about like teamwork in terms of like my
wingman and his support and you know, being there for
somebody when they need it, you know, they're just I
don't know, there was so much goodness that came out
of it. I don't know. I guess I'm a believer
that things happened for a reason and trying to figure out,
(35:18):
then how do I take this and share with others
and help others too.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I'm the same, I really, I really think like the
whole everything happened for a reason can be cliche, but
if you can find the reason behind things, if you
can find the meaning, that it gives you. Everything in
my life that I love the most, that I really
really value and cherish, everything comes from an experience that hurt,
(35:46):
an experience that was painful, that was hard to get through,
that was that caused me resentment at times, and then
you come through that and you've got this most precious
stuff that you've uncovered in the process.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
I think about like the relationships that I built on
that deployment with the guys in my unit, Like the
guys in my squadron like they're my brothers, Like they
just like there was something about it, especially being the
Initially I was the only woman in the squadron. Obviously
there was a little consternation or like how would I
(36:20):
be Could I fly the airplane? You know, lots of
questions which you know, buying fair whatever, And then we
go to combat and this happens, and I think it
was just like let all that go, Like there was
never a question again of was I credible or capable
in the airplane. Like it was just like, yeah, turns
out she is. And it was never like a thing
after that. And they just like that unit that the
(36:44):
squadron that I was with with, we're you know, we're
friends to this day. We keep in contact, and it's
just the relationships that you build when you go through
hard things together, I think is really important too.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Oh I love that. What do you do now? Now?
Speaker 3 (36:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (36:59):
I know crazy.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
It's been twenty three years. So I went on to
serve another twenty years in the Air Force. After that,
I flew more missions in combat. I ended up leading teams,
small teams, also large teams as a squadron commander and
group commander, which for us is about a thousand people,
and I loved it. You know, I kind of found
this passion and purpose in life. I ended up spending
(37:22):
my last three years in service back at the Air
Force Academy, back where I started. I got to teach
cadets and you know, this next generation of leaders. And
then I spent my final year as a director at
the Center for Character and Leadership Development, which was like
this perfect dream job. And you know, it was one
of those things like I was kind of looking at
the end of my career, end of flying, and I
(37:44):
was like, gosh, you know, for so long my passion
and purpose was supporting our troops on the ground.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
You know, that was it.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
And it was just like a little sad when that
chapter closed, and to have this job where I suddenly
felt passion and purpose again in terms of character and
leadership development and helping our next generation. So I was
as I was getting ready to retire and trying to
figure out what I was going to do with my life.
You know, I was like, you know it is it's
this leadership development, it's personal development. It's sharing stories to
(38:14):
help people on their on their on their journey and
to try to make a difference in some way. And
I just I started speaking initially to various teams and
organizations throughout the military initially, and then to businesses and corporations,
and it really just despite COVID for a couple of years,
(38:35):
then really kicked off and now I am a full
time keynote speaker. I get to speak with various teams
and organizations around the country a few international events as well,
which is super fun for me because I love to
travel and uh. And then I wrote a book. And
I never thought I would be an author. I just
never It was never on my list of things. And
(38:59):
it took me about three year to write and a
year to publish. But I wrote a book about many
of these stories and the lessons I learned, and I
felt like, you know, a book about a ten pilots
is how I kind of survived a pretty difficult time
in my life. And so it's a lot more than
flying stories. It's leadership stories as well my time as
a military leader. But you know, it's been really really
(39:20):
rewarding to connect with audiences, to connect with readers and
just you know, hear how either my book or my
speech has changed their life. In some way, and so
it's given me that passion and purpose Again, what.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Sparked the idea of the book? Did someone say you
should write a book? Or did you just start to
think I've got a lot of stories.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Somebody pushed me to write a book. A little bit.
I was teaching a class at the Air Force Academy
and one of the other instructors who has more experienced
he had spent some time in the army and then
retire and went on to get a PhD, written several books,
and he sat in on one of my classes, and
the way I taught class was by telling stories. When
(40:00):
I noticed that the young cadets generally paid attention in
the stories and therefore generally paid attention and the lessons
a little bit better. And we walked out and he said,
you've got some great stories and some great lessons. You
should write a book. And I kind of laughed them off.
I was like, huh, not an author. I don't even
know how to write a book. And he kind of
looked at me and he's like, Kim, I'm serious, Like
(40:21):
you need to write the book. And he said, so,
I'll take your first chapter in December when the cadets
are gone for break and I was like, what I said,
I'm serious, write me a first chapter. And I was like,
all right, I'll write you a first chapter. I had
no structure, no outline, no thesis, no no nothing. I
just started writing. Not the recommended approach, by the way,
(40:42):
but I just started writing, which was actually really fun,
very cathartic in some ways. I got to look up
all these old like all these letters I had written
to my parents during my time at the Air Force Academy,
and when I was deployed, I went and found these
old emails and read, you know, just all this old
stuff that I had, you know, been able to pull out,
(41:03):
looked at old pictures and just brought so much back
and it was actually a really fun experience. It just
took me a long time because I was still serving
and had a lot of other things going on in
my life.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
But yeah, you know, I'm over time. I figured out
what I.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
Wanted to do with the book.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
I cut out a lot.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
You know, it's amazing when you if you just start writing,
then you have a lot of stuff that's going to
go in a different file, that's not going to be published,
but you know it was a really fun process. I
still it's kind of funny. I'm like, I'm actually an author,
Like I've published a book, seriously, Like it's one of
those like I didn't think I was going to do that.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
That's really cool.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Talk to me a little bit about character, developing character.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
That's interesting.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
Yeah, it's you know, it's one of those tough conversations
of like, how do you teach character? Can you teach character?
Do people have to show up with character? Are they
born with it or does it come from their family?
And what we you know, what we really came to is,
especially at the Air Force Academy, cadets are coming from
all different backgrounds, all different walks of life. They've had
(42:02):
different experiences in their life, some good, some bad, and
so how do we you know, start on an even
playing field, if you will, Like, how do we again
share stories and show examples? And you know, for us,
it's all about like these people, these young cadets are
going to graduate and become lieutenants and they're going to
have to lead people at a very young age, and
(42:23):
we want them to make the right decisions, the good decisions,
honorable decisions when nobody's watching, you know, when it's those
tough times. And so we use a process called a
framework that we use which is about living honorably, lifting
others and then elevating performance.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
And the whole idea is initially right.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
We have to start with ourselves. Can we live honorably,
have courage and character and all of those things that
go into living honorably, and then we can start to
lift others. Then we can work with others to ideally
elevate the performance of the team. But you know, I
find again and it's amazing what stories do and examples
do to help teach people and show them the good
(43:06):
and the bad. Right, we have some not so great examples,
but we can learn from those as well. It was
a fantastic experience, you know, I learned a lot myself,
surrounded by amazing people that were, you know, experts in
character and leadership development.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
What is your definition of character?
Speaker 3 (43:24):
Hmm, that's a great question. I think I go away
from kind of the book to definition and just really
just in terms of what I think. I think it's
you know, what we what we think, what we say,
what we do in line with our values and our morals.
(43:45):
And then you know, you have personal morals and values.
But also you know, the Air Force, for example, has values.
I think it's important that you know, if you're on
a team or in a business, that you set values
for your company, for your team, so everybody kind of
can fall online and at least understand the values that
they're expected to uphold.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Yeah, I actually put it into chat JBT before I
asked you. I was like, oh, good, Yeah, I've never
thought of the definition before. It rambles on all it
and I'll just read the first talk. It says number
one personal integrity and moral strength. So character is often
used to describe a person's ethical and moral qualities such
as honesty, integrity, courage, and resilience. And I love that
(44:28):
because they're actually my integrity is one of my highest values,
and honesty, courage, and resilience. There are three things I
bang on about a lot, So I love that. I've
never thought a lot about character as a definition.
Speaker 3 (44:42):
That's exactly what we talk about living honorably. There's like
nine characteristics that fall under that, and those are all listed.
Could I probably couldn't lift off list off all nine
at the moment, but those are those are definitely you know,
four of them. Those are the things that we're trying
to teach young people that we're well young people, young leaders,
new leaders, probably some experienced ones as well. You know,
those are just those are important things in life.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
What are you last question? What's on resilience? Do you
think that I feel like in recent years resilience like
we have such access to people's opinions as knowledge or education,
which isn't always a great thing. What's your definition of
resilience and do you think that that people are getting
(45:29):
it wrong, getting getting a misunderstanding around what it is
and how to achieve it.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
I guess for me, it's.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
You become more resilient by doing hard things.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Right, When we do hard things, it makes us better
at doing hard things.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
I look at my kids sometimes and.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
I see fear of failure, fear of being judged, fear
of failing. I think I said that one already because
it's a big one.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Three. Yeah, we're scared of it.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
Yeah, it's like not meaning expectations, you know, fear of
the unknown, fear of things being changed. It's just like this,
this fear of that if you don't put yourself out there,
if you're not afraid and do it, anyway, then how
will you become more resilient? Right, Like, you have to
like put yourself out there, whether it's like it's the
(46:24):
things I little things I talk to my kids about about,
like go try out for the sports team, Like what's
the worst that's going to happen. You're not going to
make it, you know, it's the kids will make fun
of me, whatever it is. But like, if you don't
experience some sort of mistakes and failure your life, you're
never going to get better, Like you're never going to
make it to that next step. And so I think
it is resilience about continuing to push yourself to do
(46:46):
hard things. That's how we become more resilient. We don't
become resilient because we've had some class, or we've had
a lecture, or we've had some group bonding session. I mean,
that's how you build trust and that helps with resilience
of a team. But to me, it's doing hard things.
I Mean when we look at like that's why we
do basic training in the military, that's why we do
these exercises that make you so stressed because you're worried
(47:10):
about failing. You're worried abo what people are thinking, you know,
but you're practicing in this very high stress environment environment
so that you can fail, so that you will make mistakes,
so that the next time you've learned from it and
you're better because of it. I think it's not that
we're getting it wrong. It's just almost like there's this
massive fear that people face, and so they're not willing
(47:30):
to put themselves out there. I mean, that's part of
the reason I titled the book Flying in the Face
of Fear. Yeah, it's just it is about facing fear.
It's about being afraid and doing it anyway. I mean,
I look back on my life and I realized I
felt fear a lot. Like I was worried. I had
doubts so many different times and times from related to
military related in life, like being a single mom when
(47:53):
my husband deployed, like being a commander and a leader
and worrying about what people would think or would I
be good enough. You know, you will faced outs, but
what if I didn't do those things, like just because
I was scared. You know, it is about you're going
to have to put yourself out there. You're gonna have
to make yourself uncomfortable, but you will be stronger for it.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
You know, when I think about the resilience training and
like the interrogation training that you guys in the Air
Force have in order to develop combat soldiers, I also
think about and I think this is what we miss,
especially as the world moves forward in the direction it
has the last few years and continues to is you
(48:34):
guys had camaraderie and connection. You had this really intimate
group and a relationship to support the hard and I
think in today's world we can be so isolated, always on,
always busy, always getting tugged and pulled, and always thinking.
So that's why I think sometimes the messaging of just
(48:57):
do the hard thing leaves something out for the general person,
and I reckon, Yeah, I think loneliness and disconnection it
can wreak havoc on people trying to get resilient. Yeah,
realizing that there's a big there's a hole in their bucket.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
Doing hard things is a hell of a lot easier
when you have a team to support you, you know,
when you know someone's going to have your back. Yeah,
but yeah, it is. It's hard, it's uncomfortable, it's but
it's worth it, right, Like when we do something hard,
when we put ourselves out there, like, you learn a lot.
You like, yeah, you're going to get knocked down physically, mentally,
(49:36):
you're going to get beat up sometimes. But can you
get back up now? Can you dust yourself off? Can
you get back in the fight? I mean that's really
what it's about.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Yeah, I love chatting to you. You're brilliant. Thank you,
Sean m Fun did it already go with? This?
Speaker 3 (49:50):
Time already went by?
Speaker 1 (49:51):
I know it's flown.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
Would you like to share where my listeners can find you,
follow you by your book and access anything that you
might like to promote.
Speaker 3 (50:01):
Yeah. Absolutely. My website is Kim Dash kse dashcampbell dot
com and that has links to all my social media
LinkedIn X old, Twitter, Instagram, all out there, but Kim
K C. Campbell And that's that's probably the easiest. And
(50:21):
I say this and not many people take me up
on it, but like I'm serious, Like everyone that's listening,
like if there was a question that we didn't answer
or something that you want to know about, like reach out,
Like I love it because I love that opportunity to interact.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
In terms of the book, it's available.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
Amazon is probably like the most international place to get it.
It's now available in paperback as well, and it's Flying
in the Face of Fear of fighter pilot's lessons, I'm
leading with courage.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
Oh so good, so great. Thank you so much again,
it's been such a pleasure, and thanks everyone for tuning in.
Go by the book and fly in the face of fear.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
Love it. Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
Stand
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!