October 30, 2024 • 47 mins
In this episode, I’m chatting with the ah-mazing Tahlia Isaac, and trust me, her story is nothing short of an inspiration. From battling addiction and serving time in prison to becoming a fierce advocate for women re-entering society, Tahlia’s journey is raw, real, and powerful. She’s not just talking about change - she’s living it through her work with her charity, Strong. Empowered. Living Free (SELF).
We get down to business around the nitty-gritty of her past, what pulled Tahlia down that path, and (more importantly) how she clawed her way back out. Tahlia shares how she’s using this lived experience to create real impact for other women going through the same struggles. We talk identity, forgiveness, and what it really takes to rebuild your life after hitting rock bottom.
Enjoy!
TESTART FAMILY LAWYERS
Website: testartfamilylawyers.com.au
TAHLIA ISAAC
Podcast: I Hear You Podcast
TIFFANEE COOK
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Website: tiffcook.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Good eighteen. Welcome to the show This is Wrong with
the Punches Podcast and I'm your host Tiff Cook, and
you and I we're doing what we always do. We're
hanging out with people who have rolled with the punches
so that we can learn how to get ready to
roll with the next punch that life throws our way.
Tarlie Isaac I met recently and she is amazing. She
(00:24):
is amazing and I'm super excited to be speaking to
her today. She's someone whose story is that of resilience,
transformation and hard earned on the field wisdom from addiction
and prison herself at a young age to now advocating
for women re entering society post incarcuration. She is someone
(00:46):
who is walking the walk and making a real difference
to our society. Thank you, Talia, you are amazing. Nobody
wants to go to court and don't. My friends are
test art family lawyers and know that they offer all
forms of alternative dispute resolution. Their team of Melbourne family
lawyers have extensive experience in all areas of family law
(01:09):
to facto and same sex couples, custody and children, family
violence and intervention orders, property settlements and financial agreements. Test
Art is in your corner, so reach out to Mark
and the team at www dot test Artfamilylawyers dot com
dot au tlia Isaac, Welcome to Roll with the Punches.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Thanks for having me mate, first.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Cab off the rank back off. After my holiday, I'm
feeling fresh. I've forgotten how to podcast, but I've got
you and your amazing face to have a chat too.
So how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah good? I just stopped back from my holiday too.
I went to Vietnam, so it was excellent.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
What took you to Vietnam? And what did you do?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Just a mum's trips to Me and my girlfriend left
our kids with their dads and we went to Vietnam
just to recharge our souls. And yeah, it was amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
How good is it? I went a year ago and
did a bicycle tour.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Oh no, we didn't do that. We did a food too,
as you can tell.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
It is the food though. How good is that?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Oh my gosh, it was so good. It was actually
so good. I think I rolled off the plane home
like I was just No one cares about that.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
This was me from India. This was me from India,
and India is all about cabs and tea with sugar,
like all of the sweet stuff and so much bread
and cap so much of stuff I don't normally eat.
But wow, do they do food good in India?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah? Yeah. The coffee was the condensed milk in Vietnam.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yes, right, so last year when I went, you go
to a country like that and you're like, oh, well
that's it for me, especially if you're from Melbourne, that's
it for me and coffee for this whole week. And
then we had that coffee, and Vietnam do really good coffee,
especially when you throw con Then's milk in it.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
I think in the milking, he's gonna make it good.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, film with you.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
It's really stuck to start the podcast.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
I know everyone knows that I'm a bit of a
sugarhead and I'm a bit of a foodie and so yeah,
it's easy for me to get sidetracked. But I'm really
excited to speak to you because we met recently. I met,
I met you. How long would that have been now?
Maybe a month?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
I started September, so it was the week before I
went to Vietnam.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Wow. Right, So I met you and I didn't about
your personal background, But I had a bit of a
scope about at what you do on your website, and
I was like, oh, you're doing some amazing stuff. And
then you threw me for six when you shared some
(04:10):
of your personal background. So I'm going to step out
of the way and just say, mate, who's Talia And
how does she describe herself?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
So I'm a mother of two little boys. I'm also
a woman who has lived experience of being in prison
and lived experience of being addicted to drugs, And I
guess I'm also a woman who has a postgraduate degree
(04:41):
in criminology and criminal justice and someone that really is
passionate about the rights and the human rights I guess
of women who are being released from prison.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So incredible, you know, like sitting across the table from
you in the way to we met and making those
first impressions and knowing what you do. I just can't
really describe how it felt then learning that you had
that lived experience it as well, Like the respect and
(05:16):
the gratitude I felt for kind of coming across you
was just insane.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
That's really fine.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
It's it's it's bloody awesome, And and you are doing
a lot for an indigenous community as well. I watched
an amazing documentary on the plane on the way home.
Can't remember its name, but it was about indigenous a
beautiful documentary of a young Indigenous boy and in Australia
and his education and schooling journey. So should probably look
(05:46):
that up, Yeah, to watch it. Yeah, I'll find I'll
find out the name because my friend watched it on
the way over and told me to watch it, and
I watched it on the way back, and I have
a memory of a sieve, So I'll find that out.
But let's like share with me a little bit of
your a little bit of your story and your backstory,
like how did this How did it come about that
(06:08):
you fell into these hard times and took the path
you did, and how the hell did you dig your
way out of that?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, I mean, I guess how how it all sort
of came to be? Was you know as a kid
growing up, I like really never felt like I was
sort of enough, always like had to, like, I guess,
be like the best and prove myself and never really
(06:37):
felt like I belonged anywhere, And I kind of like,
I guess that kind of carried over into adulthood. And
the way that I had relationships, you know, friendships and
romantic relationships, and when there was a breakdown of a relationship,
my automatic default would be to just totally run away
(07:00):
from it because I was never really skilled at how
to handle like rejection all my feelings or emotions. So, yeah,
I had a relationship breakdown, I totally ran away from
that life and ran into the arms of people who
(07:22):
were using drugs, and I loved it. It was a
grain escape for me. I was already sort of partying
a lot, drinking a lot, but you know, nothing like
I was eighteen, so that's what you do, right, living
in the city, working at nightclubs. But then this sort
(07:42):
of really took a dark turn, and I found myself
you know, using speed and then subsequently ice like every
day because I just got so lost in that world
and it was sartu a great way for me to
feel like I've glow somewhere, but also to escape the
(08:05):
reality of my life. So then you kind of, you know,
you go through like the ebbs and flows of being
in addiction like I. You know, it was really destructive
for a period of time where I would like, you know,
stay await for days and days and days on end,
and not eat, being really violent relationships, not working, sort
(08:30):
of dependent on other people to supply my habit, and
a roof over my head, et cetera. And then I
also experienced being quite a high functioning at it, where
I would work and maintain relationships and maintain appearances, and
I'd sleep every night and i'd you know, have a
(08:52):
relationship with my family and have my own apartment. And
so I had these kind of like two worlds that
I would sort of running. I would go from up
here and then I'd come down here. And Yeah, I
guess that kind of gave me like a really broad
experience when it came to using drugs.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yeah, can I ask about especially, I've always been quite fascinated,
probably because I'm a big scaredy cat, and the idea
of ice as a as a drug has always terrified me.
And I remember at times finding out, you know, people
that I was relatively close to had tried it, and
I was like, you know, like I'd always heard that
(09:35):
whole you tried that something like that you can try
once and be addicted. What was your experience or perception
of that first time that it was presented with this drug,
and did you have any fear or idea about what
might play out or is that just something that's just
stuff beyond comprehension at that point.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
So you have to remember like the day and age
that it was when I first started using. So it's
two thousand and eight, and it was a long long
time before there was any of these scare campaigns that
were out or people that knew a lot about it. Also,
the drug wasn't ice back then, it was speed, and
so for me, I had some little bit of understanding.
(10:19):
I'd always use recreational party drugs, you know, I'm not
always sorry. Before the ice, I was using an appeals
and some coke here and there. But I guess like
when I was having that first tie, it was speed
and it wasn't ice, and so I would always think
(10:40):
that it wasn't as bad and then it's and then
sort of once you have I always think about it
as like you've stepped through this door and it doesn't
feel it feels uncomfortable the first time, but once you
step through that door, the next door doesn't feel as uncomfortable,
and so you saw, I guess it's a progression, you know,
(11:02):
and you slowly become more and more comfortable with different
types of things. If you're already smoking seed, smoking eyes
doesn't seem as extreme. Yeah, it was like that. So, yeah,
it wasn't something that I was ever like, oh, I
can't do that. It was more it didn't feel so
(11:24):
scary to me. I already sort of opened the door.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yeah. Yeah, And do you recall the first time you
realized or maybe what was your family or the people
around you who realized first that you were in the
grips of something family or yourself, like, is that something
that was apparent?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah. When I first started using, I lost a lot
of way, and I looked quite sick, and I guess,
you know, my mum was quite worried about me. I
remember her like, I just want you to come home.
I was like, I'm fine, it's fine, I can handle myself.
(12:07):
When the reality was I was so unwell and so
in the grips of like real I guess, terrifying paranoia
and you know, strung out, not sleeping. And then I
did go home for a while and then never really
(12:27):
worked on any of my ship and that life stuff
to me back in because I was searching for that
that feeling that it gave me. And then once I
went back into the life, I sort of did it
a bit better, you would say, I worked slapt I
managed my health a bit better, which allowed me to,
(12:50):
I guess, continue to use drugs without that adverse effects.
And I thought I hit it a lot better.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah. Yeah, And at what point did things all apart?
Like how do we wind up getting incarcerated? Which yeah,
I'm fine for especially for a female.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, I guess there's a bit of like ego and
a bit of I was a bit naive because I
never thought that I would be the type of person
that would be incarcerated.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
I always used to say, I'm not going to say
me to jail, Like they're not going to I'm not
the type of person that goes to jail. I didn't
have any idea. So there's lots of women in there
that I never thought would be in prison that are
in prison. So it turns out if you break the law,
they will send you to jail. That about that, So yeah,
(13:51):
I guess I, like I was saying before, like it's
always a roller coaster when you're using, but I would
always manage to like things fell apart. I'd always managed
to scramble and like get things sort of back on track,
so I would, you know, if I lost a job,
then I would scramble get another job and be able
(14:13):
to kind of stay on track like that. But I
think where it all fell apart was in the end
of twenty sixteen. I was in a really abusive relationship,
and I stopped going to work and started making up
excuses about why I couldn't go to work, being you know,
(14:39):
controlled where I could go, what I could do. My
drug supply was obviously being controlled, my money was being controlled,
and so I guess it was once I stopped going
to work, I lost that financial freedom and became slowly
dependent on this other person. And then once and then
(15:03):
I got really behind in my rent, so then I
had to was kicked out of my house. And then
I guess once they left me and I was left
like sleeping in my car, I kind of had this
you know crossroads where like he had to make the
decision do you kind of go home back to your parents,
(15:25):
which was always an option because the door was always
open to me if I wanted to go back and
I knew the rules, or do I continue living the
life that I live, but I have to find a
way to support myself in my habit, which was ultimately
the path that I chose, and that was to sell drops.
And so yeah, that was the choice that I made.
(15:48):
And obviously then the consequences that come with that that
the police then pay attention to you, and I got caught.
I got caught with a fair amount of drugs and
I got caught supplying drugs. And then that was in
twenty seventeen, so it didn't last long in the scene.
And then for the next year and a bit when
(16:10):
I was on bail, I just continued to get more
and more charges until they reminded me in custody in
twenty eighteen, and that was that was the end of
the road for me.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Ah, what I just can't even imagine, Like they sound
like silly, simple questions, But what what stopped you? What
stopped you from making the choice to go back to family?
Cause I'm just thinking of I'm thinking of other families
listening that have people in their lives who are in
(16:46):
a similar situation, and they're thinking, well, what can I do?
What's stopping my son or daughter from making this good choice?
Do you have any insights now, I think.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, Look, I can only stick to my own experience
and what and what the situation was for me. But
I think the reason I didn't choose to go home
was because I couldn't handle the life you know that
that was waiting for me there. I couldn't handle sobriety.
(17:20):
I didn't know how to deal with all the emotions
of the events that happened whilst I was using you know,
I was traumatized. I also was in the grips of addiction.
And like for me, it wasn't the end of the road,
like it wasn't like coming to that crossroad for me
(17:45):
wasn't the lowest point and wasn't enough for me to
say I don't want this life anymore. It was how
can I continue to live this life? So I guess
there's a lot of things that play And the only
thing that I can say to family members is all
you can do is say to your loved one, like,
we love you, and we know that you're in the
(18:07):
middle of this ship right now. The door is always
open for you. Put boundaries in place, like there needs
to be rules. If you come home, you leave that
life behind. You go to therapy, you go to groups,
or you know, there needs to be some sort of
boundaries that work for your family, but ultimately that unconditional
love and support is what they need. And then you
(18:31):
have to kind of take your hands off and say
you're an adult and you make your own decisions, and
if this is the life you want to live, we're sorry,
but you can't bring it back to our home because
then it becomes a family issue, and that's when real
damage is done, and damage is done to family units.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Yeah, I'm always fascinated by our the tipping points, the
times in our life. And I mean in your case
we're talking about a really big shift, really big tipping
point in a big change, but even small things like
even myself going away the last couple of weeks and
coming back and things have shifted, and I sit on
(19:12):
the outside of me and go, why do sometimes experiences
come along and allow me to shift when I've wanted
and attempted to shift things on my own accord. But
I find that so fascinating and also a little bit frustrating.
(19:34):
Like as a coach, both in you know, training people's
bodies and minds, it's always been this hyper curious area
of my life where I'm like, what, we can't force
people to change, but how do we What environment do
we need to create, what systems, what structures, what processes,
what support and how do we influence bodies and minds?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
It's really really great question and when you find the
answer to that, please let me know. And honestly, I
think it is just like everyone is so different as
human beings were made up so differently. Our experience is
our environments, the way our minds work, the way our
bodies work, and so there's not this one size. It's
(20:19):
all approached when it comes to like pulling people out
at the right time, you know, or like making this
change at the right time, and timing has got a
lot to do with it. Yeah, I think. And also
there's part of me that thinks some things are just
meant to be. We're meant to learn things, you know,
(20:40):
we're meant to grow, we're meant to change. Sometimes you
experience things because that's what you needed to experience to
grow as a person. Yeah, it's a lot, a lot
of factors in play.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yeah, it's so deep, and like I was thinking about
it a lot. It reminds me of a question I
had doctor Bruce Perry on the show at one point,
and he wrote what Happened to You with Oprah Winfrey,
a brilliant book on childhood trauma. And I asked him,
I said, I was talking about my own experience through
childhood and this trauma that I dealt with. And I
(21:15):
said I I was always captivated, captivated by this moment
where I was journaling. Before I'd really talked about what
had happened to me, before i'd shared it, before I'd
even done a lot of therapy, I just journaled. And
I remember this moment. I can vividly recall sitting in
Elwood at my desk, writing on a sheet of paper
about this experience, just getting words out, and halfway through
(21:38):
this sentence, writing about this perpetrator, I without my without
even thinking consciously of it, I just write, actually, mid sentence,
actually perhaps I should thank this guy, because because I
just realized all of the traits and the strengths and
the opportunities and the growth that wouldn't exist in me
(22:01):
if that didn't happen. And I said to doctor Bruce, like,
why did I choose that? Like do we have free will?
Do we have fate? Or are we just accepting what
happens and making the best of it. Does choice come
into play? Did I choose that? If I say I
did choose it, that's taking all of the credit. And
(22:22):
if I say no, I'm just lucky, that discounts all
of the work I've done on my mindset, my whole
life to try and have shape and influence in control.
So and I'm still perplexed by it. I will never
know the answer to that.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I think it's a little bit of both, Like it
doesn't have to be one or the other. Yeah, yeah,
I think it's a little bit of both. Like for me, like,
how come, you know, from all the things that I've
been through, how come I'm sitting here today? And how
come not somebody else? And like it's a little bit
of privilege, it's a little bit of hard work, it's
(22:57):
a little bit of luck. Yeah, it's a little bit
of good timing. It's just you know, it doesn't have
to be one of the other.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
And it just is, isn't it. It just is?
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah? And thank goodness, Like, thank goodness that you are
here today doing all the work, amazing work that you do,
you know, thank goodness that you were able to transform
those experiences and become somebody who makes an impact in
that space and changes other people's trajectories and influences other
(23:30):
people's lives in a positive way.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yeah, let me let's shine a light on I guess
some of the some of what you experience, learned, and
now the impact that you're aiming and having on the
justice system and females being incarcerated and coming out of incarceration.
What what did you learn to see and decide to change.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, I mean, I've learned so much. I learned that.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
You can't just stop using drugs and go about your
life and expect to be healthy and recover and participate
in the community fully without support, like the experiences, especially
being incarcetrated, the experiences that we go through to.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Get there as women create and I come and are
caused by so much trauma that that needs work. And
I wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't
have the support of an extremely good therapist who worked
(24:47):
on my emotional regulation. So how I manage my emotions,
how I manage the feelings within myself, how I'm able
to understand and process a.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
Lot of the trauma that I had experienced my attachment
to people and how that looks and how I handle
conflict in those relationships.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
So I learn a lot about myself by going to therapy,
and I believe that that's one of the really fundamental
things when we talk about women coming out of prison.
Finding somebody that you connect with that can help you
work out that shit is so important. That's probably my
(25:31):
biggest learning because I did try and stop using drunts
multiple times throughout the ten years, and none of them
worked except when I started to work on myself. And
another thing I learned was that in Queensland particularly, the
services that are available for women when they are released
(25:52):
from prison are practically non existent. So there are some
service providers that work in Queensland, and there's some that
have just popped up, like you know, since I was released,
So there are like there are probably three main service
providers when it comes to post release support for women,
(26:13):
but it's so understaffed and under resourced that women like
me fall through the gaps and were corrections don't care
once you are released from prison. Queensland correct services don't
care if you succeed or if you come back, so
(26:38):
no one is there to support you in addressing things
like how do you advocate for yourself when it comes
to say, you know, child safety matters, or how do
you write a resume? How do you get what you
need from center link? How do you have healthy relationships
(27:03):
with your neighbors? How Yeah, there's a lot of things
that because you, before you were incarcerated, were existing in
a world which is just survival. How do you exist
in a world where you can thrive and where you
can be like contributing to the community economically, socially, cynically.
(27:26):
It's a really big gap.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
It just blows my mind. I always think about what
we know versus what we do in life, and like
humanity as a whole, and I often look at even
just so simply as to how do we train animals?
What do we do to animals? And then take humans,
(27:50):
throw this conscious mind into it where we get to
use words and communicate and expect that that overrides all
of the natural ways that we learn and behave. You know,
I cattal we treat human If we treat treated animals
the way we treated humans, God, they'd be vicious, vicious,
(28:10):
lethal killing machines, wouldn't they?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
And some people are right they're producted their environment. H Yeah,
it's it's pretty disgusting the way that particularly women are
treated in the Corrective Sentences Department and the way that
they're treated by society. You know, there's a really big
(28:40):
portion of our community that say, well, you deserve to
be there because you can in the crimes. And so
there's this saying like, do the crime, do the time,
which is such a bullshit saying because we know that
women get out of prison so they've done their time,
but then they continue to stuffer consequences long beyond what
sentence to them by the judge. It's like almost like
(29:03):
you deserve to be punished for the rest of your
life because there's something wrong with you because you're incarcerated.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Yeah, do you find I don't know if you're can
answer this. Do you find there's a difference in the
way that men are treated throughout incarceration and after incarceration
or what their experience might be and that will be
had because you're just one female who's been through your
own experience, but you're also working in the space and
(29:33):
researching I guess. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Yeah. So the system, like the prison system is primarily
set up as a patriarchy system. So it's set up
designed for men by men, and so it doesn't really
respond to the needs of women. For example, even to
the clothes that you're wearing in prison, men's clothes, like
(29:57):
the clothes that they give you in the watchhouse, the
old the older uniform from the men's prison, so you know,
they they're very like standard box clothing that doesn't show
any kind of female features. It's a very male orientated system.
(30:20):
And so you know, you're removing mothers from their children
because this is the way the systems designed, which creates
a whole heap of other issues. And I think so
the way that the systems design was for men, and
so it doesn't suit the needs of women. But then
also there's this like belief in the community that you know,
(30:46):
I guess if a man goes to prison and he
gets out, he can go into you know, more like
unskilled jobs or skilled jobs without much oversight, like you know,
no checking of criminal histories. But for women we go
into more caring roles, and there's all these checks and balances,
(31:09):
checking criminal histories, blue cards, yellow cards, and so there's
this you know, there's this unbalanced when it comes to
the opportunity's post prison for men and women?
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Wow? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
How did how did it change you? How did it
change your identity coming out of there? Did any major
shifts happen?
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Well?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
I mean yeah, heats of shifts because prior to being incastrated,
my whole identity was around using and moving drugts, and
so when I was released, it was like, how do
I build this identity that's not that anymore? Who am I?
My whole out adult life, I've been doing this stuff?
(31:59):
So who am I? What can I? What can I
offer this?
Speaker 4 (32:02):
You know?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
What can I offer society?
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Who?
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Who am I? What skills do I have? Where do
I belong?
Speaker 4 (32:10):
You know?
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:12):
I guess for me, I just had that I had
that privilege of being able to like try different things.
You know. I applied for a shipload of jobs, none
of them I got. And I had a Bachelor of Business,
I had a work history. I'd worked in like financial services, telecommunications,
(32:34):
local government, banking. So I had like a whole heap
of skills, but still couldn't get a job. And so
I had to really like it was like a lot
of resilience building getting doors closed on you, and you know,
who am I what do I want to do with my life? Yeah,
(32:58):
it's been it's been a big learning curve and I'm still.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
How do you figure that out? Like we we sat
on the Himalayan mountains and one of the biggest questions
we pondered and workshopped before we left. We did a
lot of work shopping and personal stuff and we we
talked a lot about who am I and identity? And
for me it was it was a big point of
(33:24):
you know, one of the biggest things I wanted to
do was get away from my routine, away from because
I'm very aware of who influences me when I'm around them, right,
so I choose people that way. But I love to
get out of that and go all right, who like
who am I? When I'm away from all of that
(33:46):
and away from the influencers. How much work did you
have to do to figure out after such an experience,
who are you?
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Like?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
What sort of work did that take? Are you still
working on that?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah? Yeah, absolutely. I think we all are, you know,
we all and I think we shouldn't get bogged down
in like this is who I am and I've never
got to change because it doesn't then it doesn't leave
us opportunity to grow and change and change our minds
about things and be open to new ideas and be
open to new ways of thinking, and you know, to
(34:22):
hear other people's experiences and go, actually, you're right, like
why is that? Or you know, be curious about things.
I think that my identity's always changed, Like you know,
when I had children, my identity changed them huge shit
in identity and I'd only been out of prison, like,
(34:43):
you know, three years. So it was a massive change
in identity for me when I became a mother and
somebody was attached to me twenty four seven and relied
on me for everything, And like women when they have children,
that's a huge thing for them without all the ship
that I came as well. So it was a massive
(35:04):
thing for me to become a mum. And then you know,
obviously my identity shift when I got out. My identity
shifted when I started this charity, you know, and my
identity will continue to shift as I grow and as
I as I learned new things.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
And I think that's okay, Yeah, how does the I
guess in inverted commas, the girl that went to prison,
how does that part of your identity sit with you
today and how did that take a bit of shifting
or wrapping your arms around? How how was that did you?
Did you kind of stuff it down, push it away,
(35:42):
reject it, embrace it?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Yeah, embraced it. I think the girl that I was
when I went to prison was so scared, so broken,
so damaged by life up into that point, that I
had to forgive her for all the choices that she made.
(36:06):
And when I say her, I mean me. You know,
I made mistakes and I made choices and just you know,
suffered consequences which I still suffer to this day. And
I think that coming to peace with who that person
was and the path that led me there, Yeah, I
(36:30):
had to forgive her. I struggled and I sat with
this like unforgiveness of her, like I was such a
bad person. You know, I done some pretty shift things
when I was in that world, and you know, I
guess like the broader community would say, well, you know,
you push this drug onto into communities, and so you're
(36:52):
a terrible person. And first some part I accept that.
I accept that I did did that, and you know,
and I've forgiven myself that because only I know my
life up until that point and you know, yeah, I
(37:13):
just think that I forgive her. I forgive her, and
I carry her with me every day. You know, she
informs all of the work that I do, So you know,
it's always like this, this this person that I was
changed and grew so that I could be who I
am today, And so how could I not bring her
(37:34):
along with me?
Speaker 4 (37:35):
You know?
Speaker 1 (37:36):
I love that. One of the rituals we did up
on the mountain on the last day, we had our
last day walking in silence, and one portion of the
walk walking painfully slow as a meditation walk. I reckon
it took an hour and a half to get a
kilomity was it was very slow, so full their silence.
And then we had a ritual where we were we
(37:58):
were letting go of the parts of us that no
longer served us. We were going to be burning them
and leaving them on the mountain. And it was a
really powerful session. And what was interesting is a couple
of the things that I'd written down and one of
the big ones for me was like, I'm I'm going
to let go of shame, like I've been carrying that
shit around for forty years. I don't need that anymore.
(38:22):
But what grabbed me. Was at the moment that it
was my turn, and I went up and I had
that in my hands, and it came like I just
had this experience where I went before I set fire
to that. I'm just going to take a moment to
be grateful, because that's obviously we don't create anything that
(38:42):
doesn't serve and protect us at some point, so as
and I think the fact that we judge those parts
of ourselves doesn't it's prevents us from letting it go.
It's like, so I was like, all right, I'm really thanks.
I'm really grateful for even though I don't understand what
could possibly positively from shame, I'm really grateful for it.
(39:05):
And I love the way that you spoke about her
and that part of you, and that you still hold
her close and respect the decisions that she made because
it's true and I think everyone should look at the
parts of themselves like that with that level of respect
and go. She made the best choices she was equipped
(39:25):
to at the time for her to keep herself safe,
and without those choices, she couldn't do the work she's
doing now. It's going to change the world, not just
for some people, but for a lot of people because
the ripple effect of the work you're doing. And please
tell me about that in the charity now, yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yeah, absolutely, thank you.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
So the work that I do now, I started Strong Empowered,
Living Free. So we call itself and it's basically an
organiation that seeks to stop women from going back into prison.
So we do re entry work and basically we just
(40:10):
want women to be able to create the lives that
they want, so about self determination. And we do it
all from a place of obviously research and evidence, bace,
but primarily lived experience because for me, I know, when
I was being released, not having a service provider that
(40:32):
understood what it was like to be in prison to
come back out into the community was a real barrier
for me. So, you know, the work that we do itself.
We have a twelve week program, a re entry program
that's called Project Herself and we basically have in person
sessions ninety minutes a week for twelve weeks, and women
(40:55):
who have been released from prison come and we share
our college about how to exist in a world where
we're not just surviving. So like things that I was
talking about before, like how do we have healthy relationships,
how do we have healthy minds, how do we build resumes?
(41:19):
What transferable skills do we have? If we don't have
our work history, how can we engage in our community,
engage well with our children, with our family. So yeah,
I'm really excited. Next year we will be launching the program,
the twelve week program here in Townsville, which will give
the opportunity for twelve women coming out of town for
(41:40):
Women's Correctional Center to participate. And yeah, just like it's
been like a long time coming where we see an
organization that has at our board is one hundred percent
formerly incarcerated women. So yeah, so you know, we have expertise,
(42:03):
but we also know what it's like to be in prison.
So we walk the walk, talk the talk the walk.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
I love that, And I just want to acknowledge the
additional challenges that must have come up, both internally and personally,
but I guess also with corporates and government and everyone
that needs to be involved to launch something like this,
of all having that background, like what a juxtapose huh?
Speaker 2 (42:33):
You know, if you really believe in a value of
you know, representing something, I think that there's nowhere that
I wouldn't have looked to find women to sit on
the board that met that criteria. It's like, you know,
it's like for any job, and there's plenty of women
(42:56):
who have been involved in the criminal justice system that
are now working in professional fields. Whether they use that
experience for their advocacy or for their work is a
different thing. But yeah, we're really lucky and I'm really excited,
really excited for next year.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Oh I love that so much. How can people support
and help you get whatever you need? Like, how do
we help you?
Speaker 2 (43:24):
So we're actually having a charity event in November, November sixteen,
We're going to have an event called Art and Advocacy,
So basically there's just going to be a panel discussion
on the impacts of criminalization that it has on women
and how we can better support them to come back
into the community. There are virtual tickets available, so if
(43:48):
you're not in towns well, you can actually purchase a
virtual ticket and bought the charity. It will give you
access to view the panel discussion and you can also
make a dig on the artworks that are going to
be out for Silent Option.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Amazing. I love that.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Yeah, And you can find that all at our website www.
Dot self projects dot com.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
Dot a new good Work, Mindreader, good Work. Is there anything?
Is there anything you haven't shared that I should have
asked about or that you'd love to share.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
I don't know. I feel like I go somewhere else
when I do these things, like when I always like
record podcasts or do interviews, I feel like I go
somewhere else. And so I can't remember anything that I've
talked about because it's totally unscripted, and like it's just
it's totally from like the heart, and I just, yeah,
(44:48):
I always like to forget, Oh, what have I talked about?
What should I have talked about? But I feel like, yeah,
I've talked it up.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
So No, I love that. Yeah, that is the story
of my unscripted life. I love it. It's been. Like I
said at the start, it's been. It's been incredible. Meeting
someone like yourself, even just sitting on the sidelines and
(45:19):
getting exposed to some of this stuff is really powerful.
I think that it's powerful not just for people that
are incarcerated or have loved ones that are incarcerated, but
just anyone, because I think that idea of identity and
change and opportunity and all of the stuff that the
(45:40):
people are up against, all the biases, all the red tape,
all of the things that can impact our lives so much.
I think that that shines through in conversations like this.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Thank you so much for having me and for allowing
me to share these things with your audience. I think
that the more that we have these conversations, and you know,
like I was saying before, there's a lot of people
in our society who believe, well, if you've committed an offense,
that you deserve to go to prison. But that's all
good and well, but we should have more compassion. You
should have more compassion that when people get out is
(46:14):
actually extremely difficult to come back into a community and
participate in it. And so we would see less crime rates,
we would see less social disjointedness if we could be
more accepting of other people. So whenever I'm able to
come and share my life or my heart, I hope
(46:38):
that someone will hear it and it will change the
way that they think about women.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Like.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Keep doing the work, mate, Thank you, thank you, thanks
so much. Thanks everyone, go give her a follow off.
See you at that online event, Yes.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
To see you in November
Speaker 4 (47:00):
Tw
Good eighteen. Welcome to the show This is Wrong with
the Punches Podcast and I'm your host Tiff Cook, and
you and I we're doing what we always do. We're
hanging out with people who have rolled with the punches
so that we can learn how to get ready to
roll with the next punch that life throws our way.
Tarlie Isaac I met recently and she is amazing. She
(00:24):
is amazing and I'm super excited to be speaking to
her today. She's someone whose story is that of resilience,
transformation and hard earned on the field wisdom from addiction
and prison herself at a young age to now advocating
for women re entering society post incarcuration. She is someone
(00:46):
who is walking the walk and making a real difference
to our society. Thank you, Talia, you are amazing. Nobody
wants to go to court and don't. My friends are
test art family lawyers and know that they offer all
forms of alternative dispute resolution. Their team of Melbourne family
lawyers have extensive experience in all areas of family law
(01:09):
to facto and same sex couples, custody and children, family
violence and intervention orders, property settlements and financial agreements. Test
Art is in your corner, so reach out to Mark
and the team at www dot test Artfamilylawyers dot com
dot au tlia Isaac, Welcome to Roll with the Punches.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Thanks for having me mate, first.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Cab off the rank back off. After my holiday, I'm
feeling fresh. I've forgotten how to podcast, but I've got
you and your amazing face to have a chat too.
So how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah good? I just stopped back from my holiday too.
I went to Vietnam, so it was excellent.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
What took you to Vietnam? And what did you do?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Just a mum's trips to Me and my girlfriend left
our kids with their dads and we went to Vietnam
just to recharge our souls. And yeah, it was amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
How good is it? I went a year ago and
did a bicycle tour.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Oh no, we didn't do that. We did a food too,
as you can tell.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
It is the food though. How good is that?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Oh my gosh, it was so good. It was actually
so good. I think I rolled off the plane home
like I was just No one cares about that.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
This was me from India. This was me from India,
and India is all about cabs and tea with sugar,
like all of the sweet stuff and so much bread
and cap so much of stuff I don't normally eat.
But wow, do they do food good in India?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah? Yeah. The coffee was the condensed milk in Vietnam.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yes, right, so last year when I went, you go
to a country like that and you're like, oh, well
that's it for me, especially if you're from Melbourne, that's
it for me and coffee for this whole week. And
then we had that coffee, and Vietnam do really good coffee,
especially when you throw con Then's milk in it.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
I think in the milking, he's gonna make it good.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, film with you.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
It's really stuck to start the podcast.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
I know everyone knows that I'm a bit of a
sugarhead and I'm a bit of a foodie and so yeah,
it's easy for me to get sidetracked. But I'm really
excited to speak to you because we met recently. I met,
I met you. How long would that have been now?
Maybe a month?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
I started September, so it was the week before I
went to Vietnam.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Wow. Right, So I met you and I didn't about
your personal background, But I had a bit of a
scope about at what you do on your website, and
I was like, oh, you're doing some amazing stuff. And
then you threw me for six when you shared some
(04:10):
of your personal background. So I'm going to step out
of the way and just say, mate, who's Talia And
how does she describe herself?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
So I'm a mother of two little boys. I'm also
a woman who has lived experience of being in prison
and lived experience of being addicted to drugs, And I
guess I'm also a woman who has a postgraduate degree
(04:41):
in criminology and criminal justice and someone that really is
passionate about the rights and the human rights I guess
of women who are being released from prison.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So incredible, you know, like sitting across the table from
you in the way to we met and making those
first impressions and knowing what you do. I just can't
really describe how it felt then learning that you had
that lived experience it as well, Like the respect and
(05:16):
the gratitude I felt for kind of coming across you
was just insane.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
That's really fine.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
It's it's it's bloody awesome, And and you are doing
a lot for an indigenous community as well. I watched
an amazing documentary on the plane on the way home.
Can't remember its name, but it was about indigenous a
beautiful documentary of a young Indigenous boy and in Australia
and his education and schooling journey. So should probably look
(05:46):
that up, Yeah, to watch it. Yeah, I'll find I'll
find out the name because my friend watched it on
the way over and told me to watch it, and
I watched it on the way back, and I have
a memory of a sieve, So I'll find that out.
But let's like share with me a little bit of
your a little bit of your story and your backstory,
like how did this How did it come about that
(06:08):
you fell into these hard times and took the path
you did, and how the hell did you dig your
way out of that?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, I mean, I guess how how it all sort
of came to be? Was you know as a kid
growing up, I like really never felt like I was
sort of enough, always like had to, like, I guess,
be like the best and prove myself and never really
(06:37):
felt like I belonged anywhere, And I kind of like,
I guess that kind of carried over into adulthood. And
the way that I had relationships, you know, friendships and
romantic relationships, and when there was a breakdown of a relationship,
my automatic default would be to just totally run away
(07:00):
from it because I was never really skilled at how
to handle like rejection all my feelings or emotions. So, yeah,
I had a relationship breakdown, I totally ran away from
that life and ran into the arms of people who
(07:22):
were using drugs, and I loved it. It was a
grain escape for me. I was already sort of partying
a lot, drinking a lot, but you know, nothing like
I was eighteen, so that's what you do, right, living
in the city, working at nightclubs. But then this sort
(07:42):
of really took a dark turn, and I found myself
you know, using speed and then subsequently ice like every
day because I just got so lost in that world
and it was sartu a great way for me to
feel like I've glow somewhere, but also to escape the
(08:05):
reality of my life. So then you kind of, you know,
you go through like the ebbs and flows of being
in addiction like I. You know, it was really destructive
for a period of time where I would like, you know,
stay await for days and days and days on end,
and not eat, being really violent relationships, not working, sort
(08:30):
of dependent on other people to supply my habit, and
a roof over my head, et cetera. And then I
also experienced being quite a high functioning at it, where
I would work and maintain relationships and maintain appearances, and
I'd sleep every night and i'd you know, have a
(08:52):
relationship with my family and have my own apartment. And
so I had these kind of like two worlds that
I would sort of running. I would go from up
here and then I'd come down here. And Yeah, I
guess that kind of gave me like a really broad
experience when it came to using drugs.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yeah, can I ask about especially, I've always been quite fascinated,
probably because I'm a big scaredy cat, and the idea
of ice as a as a drug has always terrified me.
And I remember at times finding out, you know, people
that I was relatively close to had tried it, and
I was like, you know, like I'd always heard that
(09:35):
whole you tried that something like that you can try
once and be addicted. What was your experience or perception
of that first time that it was presented with this drug,
and did you have any fear or idea about what
might play out or is that just something that's just
stuff beyond comprehension at that point.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
So you have to remember like the day and age
that it was when I first started using. So it's
two thousand and eight, and it was a long long
time before there was any of these scare campaigns that
were out or people that knew a lot about it. Also,
the drug wasn't ice back then, it was speed, and
so for me, I had some little bit of understanding.
(10:19):
I'd always use recreational party drugs, you know, I'm not
always sorry. Before the ice, I was using an appeals
and some coke here and there. But I guess like
when I was having that first tie, it was speed
and it wasn't ice, and so I would always think
(10:40):
that it wasn't as bad and then it's and then
sort of once you have I always think about it
as like you've stepped through this door and it doesn't
feel it feels uncomfortable the first time, but once you
step through that door, the next door doesn't feel as uncomfortable,
and so you saw, I guess it's a progression, you know,
(11:02):
and you slowly become more and more comfortable with different
types of things. If you're already smoking seed, smoking eyes
doesn't seem as extreme. Yeah, it was like that. So, yeah,
it wasn't something that I was ever like, oh, I
can't do that. It was more it didn't feel so
(11:24):
scary to me. I already sort of opened the door.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yeah. Yeah, And do you recall the first time you
realized or maybe what was your family or the people
around you who realized first that you were in the
grips of something family or yourself, like, is that something
that was apparent?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah. When I first started using, I lost a lot
of way, and I looked quite sick, and I guess,
you know, my mum was quite worried about me. I
remember her like, I just want you to come home.
I was like, I'm fine, it's fine, I can handle myself.
(12:07):
When the reality was I was so unwell and so
in the grips of like real I guess, terrifying paranoia
and you know, strung out, not sleeping. And then I
did go home for a while and then never really
(12:27):
worked on any of my ship and that life stuff
to me back in because I was searching for that
that feeling that it gave me. And then once I
went back into the life, I sort of did it
a bit better, you would say, I worked slapt I
managed my health a bit better, which allowed me to,
(12:50):
I guess, continue to use drugs without that adverse effects.
And I thought I hit it a lot better.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah. Yeah, And at what point did things all apart?
Like how do we wind up getting incarcerated? Which yeah,
I'm fine for especially for a female.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, I guess there's a bit of like ego and
a bit of I was a bit naive because I
never thought that I would be the type of person
that would be incarcerated.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
You know.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
I always used to say, I'm not going to say
me to jail, Like they're not going to I'm not
the type of person that goes to jail. I didn't
have any idea. So there's lots of women in there
that I never thought would be in prison that are
in prison. So it turns out if you break the law,
they will send you to jail. That about that, So yeah,
(13:51):
I guess I, like I was saying before, like it's
always a roller coaster when you're using, but I would
always manage to like things fell apart. I'd always managed
to scramble and like get things sort of back on track,
so I would, you know, if I lost a job,
then I would scramble get another job and be able
(14:13):
to kind of stay on track like that. But I
think where it all fell apart was in the end
of twenty sixteen. I was in a really abusive relationship,
and I stopped going to work and started making up
excuses about why I couldn't go to work, being you know,
(14:39):
controlled where I could go, what I could do. My
drug supply was obviously being controlled, my money was being controlled,
and so I guess it was once I stopped going
to work, I lost that financial freedom and became slowly
dependent on this other person. And then once and then
(15:03):
I got really behind in my rent, so then I
had to was kicked out of my house. And then
I guess once they left me and I was left
like sleeping in my car, I kind of had this
you know crossroads where like he had to make the
decision do you kind of go home back to your parents,
(15:25):
which was always an option because the door was always
open to me if I wanted to go back and
I knew the rules, or do I continue living the
life that I live, but I have to find a
way to support myself in my habit, which was ultimately
the path that I chose, and that was to sell drops.
And so yeah, that was the choice that I made.
(15:48):
And obviously then the consequences that come with that that
the police then pay attention to you, and I got caught.
I got caught with a fair amount of drugs and
I got caught supplying drugs. And then that was in
twenty seventeen, so it didn't last long in the scene.
And then for the next year and a bit when
(16:10):
I was on bail, I just continued to get more
and more charges until they reminded me in custody in
twenty eighteen, and that was that was the end of
the road for me.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Ah, what I just can't even imagine, Like they sound
like silly, simple questions, But what what stopped you? What
stopped you from making the choice to go back to family?
Cause I'm just thinking of I'm thinking of other families
listening that have people in their lives who are in
(16:46):
a similar situation, and they're thinking, well, what can I do?
What's stopping my son or daughter from making this good choice?
Do you have any insights now, I think.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, Look, I can only stick to my own experience
and what and what the situation was for me. But
I think the reason I didn't choose to go home
was because I couldn't handle the life you know that
that was waiting for me there. I couldn't handle sobriety.
(17:20):
I didn't know how to deal with all the emotions
of the events that happened whilst I was using you know,
I was traumatized. I also was in the grips of addiction.
And like for me, it wasn't the end of the road,
like it wasn't like coming to that crossroad for me
(17:45):
wasn't the lowest point and wasn't enough for me to
say I don't want this life anymore. It was how
can I continue to live this life? So I guess
there's a lot of things that play And the only
thing that I can say to family members is all
you can do is say to your loved one, like,
we love you, and we know that you're in the
(18:07):
middle of this ship right now. The door is always
open for you. Put boundaries in place, like there needs
to be rules. If you come home, you leave that
life behind. You go to therapy, you go to groups,
or you know, there needs to be some sort of
boundaries that work for your family, but ultimately that unconditional
love and support is what they need. And then you
(18:31):
have to kind of take your hands off and say
you're an adult and you make your own decisions, and
if this is the life you want to live, we're sorry,
but you can't bring it back to our home because
then it becomes a family issue, and that's when real
damage is done, and damage is done to family units.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Yeah, I'm always fascinated by our the tipping points, the
times in our life. And I mean in your case
we're talking about a really big shift, really big tipping
point in a big change, but even small things like
even myself going away the last couple of weeks and
coming back and things have shifted, and I sit on
(19:12):
the outside of me and go, why do sometimes experiences
come along and allow me to shift when I've wanted
and attempted to shift things on my own accord. But
I find that so fascinating and also a little bit frustrating.
(19:34):
Like as a coach, both in you know, training people's
bodies and minds, it's always been this hyper curious area
of my life where I'm like, what, we can't force
people to change, but how do we What environment do
we need to create, what systems, what structures, what processes,
what support and how do we influence bodies and minds?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
It's really really great question and when you find the
answer to that, please let me know. And honestly, I
think it is just like everyone is so different as
human beings were made up so differently. Our experience is
our environments, the way our minds work, the way our
bodies work, and so there's not this one size. It's
(20:19):
all approached when it comes to like pulling people out
at the right time, you know, or like making this
change at the right time, and timing has got a
lot to do with it. Yeah, I think. And also
there's part of me that thinks some things are just
meant to be. We're meant to learn things, you know,
(20:40):
we're meant to grow, we're meant to change. Sometimes you
experience things because that's what you needed to experience to
grow as a person. Yeah, it's a lot, a lot
of factors in play.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yeah, it's so deep, and like I was thinking about
it a lot. It reminds me of a question I
had doctor Bruce Perry on the show at one point,
and he wrote what Happened to You with Oprah Winfrey,
a brilliant book on childhood trauma. And I asked him,
I said, I was talking about my own experience through
childhood and this trauma that I dealt with. And I
(21:15):
said I I was always captivated, captivated by this moment
where I was journaling. Before I'd really talked about what
had happened to me, before i'd shared it, before I'd
even done a lot of therapy, I just journaled. And
I remember this moment. I can vividly recall sitting in
Elwood at my desk, writing on a sheet of paper
about this experience, just getting words out, and halfway through
(21:38):
this sentence, writing about this perpetrator, I without my without
even thinking consciously of it, I just write, actually, mid sentence,
actually perhaps I should thank this guy, because because I
just realized all of the traits and the strengths and
the opportunities and the growth that wouldn't exist in me
(22:01):
if that didn't happen. And I said to doctor Bruce, like,
why did I choose that? Like do we have free will?
Do we have fate? Or are we just accepting what
happens and making the best of it. Does choice come
into play? Did I choose that? If I say I
did choose it, that's taking all of the credit. And
(22:22):
if I say no, I'm just lucky, that discounts all
of the work I've done on my mindset, my whole
life to try and have shape and influence in control.
So and I'm still perplexed by it. I will never
know the answer to that.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I think it's a little bit of both, Like it
doesn't have to be one or the other. Yeah, yeah,
I think it's a little bit of both. Like for me, like,
how come, you know, from all the things that I've
been through, how come I'm sitting here today? And how
come not somebody else? And like it's a little bit
of privilege, it's a little bit of hard work, it's
(22:57):
a little bit of luck. Yeah, it's a little bit
of good timing. It's just you know, it doesn't have
to be one of the other.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
And it just is, isn't it. It just is?
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah? And thank goodness, Like, thank goodness that you are
here today doing all the work, amazing work that you do,
you know, thank goodness that you were able to transform
those experiences and become somebody who makes an impact in
that space and changes other people's trajectories and influences other
(23:30):
people's lives in a positive way.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yeah, let me let's shine a light on I guess
some of the some of what you experience, learned, and
now the impact that you're aiming and having on the
justice system and females being incarcerated and coming out of incarceration.
What what did you learn to see and decide to change.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, I mean, I've learned so much. I learned that.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
You can't just stop using drugs and go about your
life and expect to be healthy and recover and participate
in the community fully without support, like the experiences, especially
being incarcetrated, the experiences that we go through to.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Get there as women create and I come and are
caused by so much trauma that that needs work. And
I wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't
have the support of an extremely good therapist who worked
(24:47):
on my emotional regulation. So how I manage my emotions,
how I manage the feelings within myself, how I'm able
to understand and process a.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
Lot of the trauma that I had experienced my attachment
to people and how that looks and how I handle
conflict in those relationships.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
So I learn a lot about myself by going to therapy,
and I believe that that's one of the really fundamental
things when we talk about women coming out of prison.
Finding somebody that you connect with that can help you
work out that shit is so important. That's probably my
(25:31):
biggest learning because I did try and stop using drunts
multiple times throughout the ten years, and none of them
worked except when I started to work on myself. And
another thing I learned was that in Queensland particularly, the
services that are available for women when they are released
(25:52):
from prison are practically non existent. So there are some
service providers that work in Queensland, and there's some that
have just popped up, like you know, since I was released,
So there are like there are probably three main service
providers when it comes to post release support for women,
(26:13):
but it's so understaffed and under resourced that women like
me fall through the gaps and were corrections don't care
once you are released from prison. Queensland correct services don't
care if you succeed or if you come back, so
(26:38):
no one is there to support you in addressing things
like how do you advocate for yourself when it comes
to say, you know, child safety matters, or how do
you write a resume? How do you get what you
need from center link? How do you have healthy relationships
(27:03):
with your neighbors? How Yeah, there's a lot of things
that because you, before you were incarcerated, were existing in
a world which is just survival. How do you exist
in a world where you can thrive and where you
can be like contributing to the community economically, socially, cynically.
(27:26):
It's a really big gap.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
It just blows my mind. I always think about what
we know versus what we do in life, and like
humanity as a whole, and I often look at even
just so simply as to how do we train animals?
What do we do to animals? And then take humans,
(27:50):
throw this conscious mind into it where we get to
use words and communicate and expect that that overrides all
of the natural ways that we learn and behave. You know,
I cattal we treat human If we treat treated animals
the way we treated humans, God, they'd be vicious, vicious,
(28:10):
lethal killing machines, wouldn't they?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
And some people are right they're producted their environment. H Yeah,
it's it's pretty disgusting the way that particularly women are
treated in the Corrective Sentences Department and the way that
they're treated by society. You know, there's a really big
(28:40):
portion of our community that say, well, you deserve to
be there because you can in the crimes. And so
there's this saying like, do the crime, do the time,
which is such a bullshit saying because we know that
women get out of prison so they've done their time,
but then they continue to stuffer consequences long beyond what
sentence to them by the judge. It's like almost like
(29:03):
you deserve to be punished for the rest of your
life because there's something wrong with you because you're incarcerated.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Yeah, do you find I don't know if you're can
answer this. Do you find there's a difference in the
way that men are treated throughout incarceration and after incarceration
or what their experience might be and that will be
had because you're just one female who's been through your
own experience, but you're also working in the space and
(29:33):
researching I guess. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Yeah. So the system, like the prison system is primarily
set up as a patriarchy system. So it's set up
designed for men by men, and so it doesn't really
respond to the needs of women. For example, even to
the clothes that you're wearing in prison, men's clothes, like
(29:57):
the clothes that they give you in the watchhouse, the
old the older uniform from the men's prison, so you know,
they they're very like standard box clothing that doesn't show
any kind of female features. It's a very male orientated system.
(30:20):
And so you know, you're removing mothers from their children
because this is the way the systems designed, which creates
a whole heap of other issues. And I think so
the way that the systems design was for men, and
so it doesn't suit the needs of women. But then
also there's this like belief in the community that you know,
(30:46):
I guess if a man goes to prison and he
gets out, he can go into you know, more like
unskilled jobs or skilled jobs without much oversight, like you know,
no checking of criminal histories. But for women we go
into more caring roles, and there's all these checks and balances,
(31:09):
checking criminal histories, blue cards, yellow cards, and so there's
this you know, there's this unbalanced when it comes to
the opportunity's post prison for men and women?
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Wow? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
How did how did it change you? How did it
change your identity coming out of there? Did any major
shifts happen?
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Well?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
I mean yeah, heats of shifts because prior to being incastrated,
my whole identity was around using and moving drugts, and
so when I was released, it was like, how do
I build this identity that's not that anymore? Who am I?
My whole out adult life, I've been doing this stuff?
(31:59):
So who am I? What can I? What can I
offer this?
Speaker 4 (32:02):
You know?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
What can I offer society?
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Who?
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Who am I? What skills do I have? Where do
I belong?
Speaker 4 (32:10):
You know?
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:12):
I guess for me, I just had that I had
that privilege of being able to like try different things.
You know. I applied for a shipload of jobs, none
of them I got. And I had a Bachelor of Business,
I had a work history. I'd worked in like financial services, telecommunications,
(32:34):
local government, banking. So I had like a whole heap
of skills, but still couldn't get a job. And so
I had to really like it was like a lot
of resilience building getting doors closed on you, and you know,
who am I what do I want to do with my life? Yeah,
(32:58):
it's been it's been a big learning curve and I'm still.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
How do you figure that out? Like we we sat
on the Himalayan mountains and one of the biggest questions
we pondered and workshopped before we left. We did a
lot of work shopping and personal stuff and we we
talked a lot about who am I and identity? And
for me it was it was a big point of
(33:24):
you know, one of the biggest things I wanted to
do was get away from my routine, away from because
I'm very aware of who influences me when I'm around them, right,
so I choose people that way. But I love to
get out of that and go all right, who like
who am I? When I'm away from all of that
(33:46):
and away from the influencers. How much work did you
have to do to figure out after such an experience,
who are you?
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Like?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
What sort of work did that take? Are you still
working on that?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah? Yeah, absolutely. I think we all are, you know,
we all and I think we shouldn't get bogged down
in like this is who I am and I've never
got to change because it doesn't then it doesn't leave
us opportunity to grow and change and change our minds
about things and be open to new ideas and be
open to new ways of thinking, and you know, to
(34:22):
hear other people's experiences and go, actually, you're right, like
why is that? Or you know, be curious about things.
I think that my identity's always changed, Like you know,
when I had children, my identity changed them huge shit
in identity and I'd only been out of prison, like,
(34:43):
you know, three years. So it was a massive change
in identity for me when I became a mother and
somebody was attached to me twenty four seven and relied
on me for everything, And like women when they have children,
that's a huge thing for them without all the ship
that I came as well. So it was a massive
(35:04):
thing for me to become a mum. And then you know,
obviously my identity shift when I got out. My identity
shifted when I started this charity, you know, and my
identity will continue to shift as I grow and as
I as I learned new things.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
And I think that's okay, Yeah, how does the I
guess in inverted commas, the girl that went to prison,
how does that part of your identity sit with you
today and how did that take a bit of shifting
or wrapping your arms around? How how was that did you?
Did you kind of stuff it down, push it away,
(35:42):
reject it, embrace it?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Yeah, embraced it. I think the girl that I was
when I went to prison was so scared, so broken,
so damaged by life up into that point, that I
had to forgive her for all the choices that she made.
(36:06):
And when I say her, I mean me. You know,
I made mistakes and I made choices and just you know,
suffered consequences which I still suffer to this day. And
I think that coming to peace with who that person
was and the path that led me there, Yeah, I
(36:30):
had to forgive her. I struggled and I sat with
this like unforgiveness of her, like I was such a
bad person. You know, I done some pretty shift things
when I was in that world, and you know, I
guess like the broader community would say, well, you know,
you push this drug onto into communities, and so you're
(36:52):
a terrible person. And first some part I accept that.
I accept that I did did that, and you know,
and I've forgiven myself that because only I know my
life up until that point and you know, yeah, I
(37:13):
just think that I forgive her. I forgive her, and
I carry her with me every day. You know, she
informs all of the work that I do, So you know,
it's always like this, this this person that I was
changed and grew so that I could be who I
am today, And so how could I not bring her
(37:34):
along with me?
Speaker 4 (37:35):
You know?
Speaker 1 (37:36):
I love that. One of the rituals we did up
on the mountain on the last day, we had our
last day walking in silence, and one portion of the
walk walking painfully slow as a meditation walk. I reckon
it took an hour and a half to get a
kilomity was it was very slow, so full their silence.
And then we had a ritual where we were we
(37:58):
were letting go of the parts of us that no
longer served us. We were going to be burning them
and leaving them on the mountain. And it was a
really powerful session. And what was interesting is a couple
of the things that I'd written down and one of
the big ones for me was like, I'm I'm going
to let go of shame, like I've been carrying that
shit around for forty years. I don't need that anymore.
(38:22):
But what grabbed me. Was at the moment that it
was my turn, and I went up and I had
that in my hands, and it came like I just
had this experience where I went before I set fire
to that. I'm just going to take a moment to
be grateful, because that's obviously we don't create anything that
(38:42):
doesn't serve and protect us at some point, so as
and I think the fact that we judge those parts
of ourselves doesn't it's prevents us from letting it go.
It's like, so I was like, all right, I'm really thanks.
I'm really grateful for even though I don't understand what
could possibly positively from shame, I'm really grateful for it.
(39:05):
And I love the way that you spoke about her
and that part of you, and that you still hold
her close and respect the decisions that she made because
it's true and I think everyone should look at the
parts of themselves like that with that level of respect
and go. She made the best choices she was equipped
(39:25):
to at the time for her to keep herself safe,
and without those choices, she couldn't do the work she's
doing now. It's going to change the world, not just
for some people, but for a lot of people because
the ripple effect of the work you're doing. And please
tell me about that in the charity now, yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yeah, absolutely, thank you.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
So the work that I do now, I started Strong Empowered,
Living Free. So we call itself and it's basically an
organiation that seeks to stop women from going back into prison.
So we do re entry work and basically we just
(40:10):
want women to be able to create the lives that
they want, so about self determination. And we do it
all from a place of obviously research and evidence, bace,
but primarily lived experience because for me, I know, when
I was being released, not having a service provider that
(40:32):
understood what it was like to be in prison to
come back out into the community was a real barrier
for me. So, you know, the work that we do itself.
We have a twelve week program, a re entry program
that's called Project Herself and we basically have in person
sessions ninety minutes a week for twelve weeks, and women
(40:55):
who have been released from prison come and we share
our college about how to exist in a world where
we're not just surviving. So like things that I was
talking about before, like how do we have healthy relationships,
how do we have healthy minds, how do we build resumes?
(41:19):
What transferable skills do we have? If we don't have
our work history, how can we engage in our community,
engage well with our children, with our family. So yeah,
I'm really excited. Next year we will be launching the program,
the twelve week program here in Townsville, which will give
the opportunity for twelve women coming out of town for
(41:40):
Women's Correctional Center to participate. And yeah, just like it's
been like a long time coming where we see an
organization that has at our board is one hundred percent
formerly incarcerated women. So yeah, so you know, we have expertise,
(42:03):
but we also know what it's like to be in prison.
So we walk the walk, talk the talk the walk.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
I love that, And I just want to acknowledge the
additional challenges that must have come up, both internally and personally,
but I guess also with corporates and government and everyone
that needs to be involved to launch something like this,
of all having that background, like what a juxtapose huh?
Speaker 2 (42:33):
You know, if you really believe in a value of
you know, representing something, I think that there's nowhere that
I wouldn't have looked to find women to sit on
the board that met that criteria. It's like, you know,
it's like for any job, and there's plenty of women
(42:56):
who have been involved in the criminal justice system that
are now working in professional fields. Whether they use that
experience for their advocacy or for their work is a
different thing. But yeah, we're really lucky and I'm really excited,
really excited for next year.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Oh I love that so much. How can people support
and help you get whatever you need? Like, how do
we help you?
Speaker 2 (43:24):
So we're actually having a charity event in November, November sixteen,
We're going to have an event called Art and Advocacy,
So basically there's just going to be a panel discussion
on the impacts of criminalization that it has on women
and how we can better support them to come back
into the community. There are virtual tickets available, so if
(43:48):
you're not in towns well, you can actually purchase a
virtual ticket and bought the charity. It will give you
access to view the panel discussion and you can also
make a dig on the artworks that are going to
be out for Silent Option.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Amazing. I love that.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Yeah, And you can find that all at our website www.
Dot self projects dot com.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
Dot a new good Work, Mindreader, good Work. Is there anything?
Is there anything you haven't shared that I should have
asked about or that you'd love to share.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
I don't know. I feel like I go somewhere else
when I do these things, like when I always like
record podcasts or do interviews, I feel like I go
somewhere else. And so I can't remember anything that I've
talked about because it's totally unscripted, and like it's just
it's totally from like the heart, and I just, yeah,
(44:48):
I always like to forget, Oh, what have I talked about?
What should I have talked about? But I feel like, yeah,
I've talked it up.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
So No, I love that. Yeah, that is the story
of my unscripted life. I love it. It's been. Like I
said at the start, it's been. It's been incredible. Meeting
someone like yourself, even just sitting on the sidelines and
(45:19):
getting exposed to some of this stuff is really powerful.
I think that it's powerful not just for people that
are incarcerated or have loved ones that are incarcerated, but
just anyone, because I think that idea of identity and
change and opportunity and all of the stuff that the
(45:40):
people are up against, all the biases, all the red tape,
all of the things that can impact our lives so much.
I think that that shines through in conversations like this.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Thank you so much for having me and for allowing
me to share these things with your audience. I think
that the more that we have these conversations, and you know,
like I was saying before, there's a lot of people
in our society who believe, well, if you've committed an offense,
that you deserve to go to prison. But that's all
good and well, but we should have more compassion. You
should have more compassion that when people get out is
(46:14):
actually extremely difficult to come back into a community and
participate in it. And so we would see less crime rates,
we would see less social disjointedness if we could be
more accepting of other people. So whenever I'm able to
come and share my life or my heart, I hope
(46:38):
that someone will hear it and it will change the
way that they think about women.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Like.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Keep doing the work, mate, Thank you, thank you, thanks
so much. Thanks everyone, go give her a follow off.
See you at that online event, Yes.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
To see you in November
Speaker 4 (47:00):
Tw
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