June 18, 2025 • 52 mins
We ain't playing games here... things get serious when it comes to play. But don't worry, despite the attention-grabbing title I've lured you in with this is a pretty light-hearted and fun chat!
I sat down with three generations of play experts from the same fam to unpack how play shapes our brains, our relationships, and even our careers. Dr. Stuart Brown kicks things off with a wild origin story that links a lack of play to violent behavior - mass murder, in fact!! His daughter Lauren and granddaughter Mia bring it full circle with how they’ve lived and breathed this work. We dig into the science, the 8 play personalities, why adults stop having fun, and how that’s messing with our mental health. This chat is fun (as expected), real, and maybe the reminder you didn’t know you needed: play ain't just for kids. It’s fuel for being human.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
She said, it's now never I got fighting in my blood.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm tiff.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
This is role with the punches and we're turning life's
hardest hits into wins.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Nobody wants to go to court, and don't.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
My friends at test Art Family Lawyers know that they
offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. Their team of
Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in all areas of
family law to facto and same sex couples, custody and children,
family violence and intervention orders, property settlements and financial agreements.
(00:38):
Test Art is in your corner, so reach out to
Mark and the team at www dot test Artfamilylawyers dot
com dot au. All right, everyone, I have three guests
to welcome today. This is exciting, not just three guests,
but three generations dot com to Stuart Brown, his daughter
(01:02):
Lauren Sunstrom and his granddaughter Maya Sunstrom.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Welcome the three of you to the show. Thank you
for coming, Thank you.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
King to be in Australia with you.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I wish you were in Australia. I wish we were
all sitting in a room together, especially for the topic
that we're about to talk about. Hey, yeah, how did
it all start? Stuart play the science of play? How
did you even get obsessed with this?
Speaker 5 (01:33):
Listen, we all start up players, So you know, I
think I had a good family background when I was
a little kid that was very pro play, so that
my youth was not terribly complicated other than just.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
For playing, but professionally.
Speaker 5 (01:55):
I got involved in play because I studied initially murderer
who had killed a bunch of people off the top
of the Texas University of Texas tower, and he himself
was killed in the act of his tragic wounding of
fourteen and wounding of thirty two and killing of fourteen.
(02:19):
And I was part of a commission because I was
a young psychiatrist at the time, and we delved into
his background, his brain, everything we could find out about him.
And one of the most penetrating aspects of his existence
was that his highly disturbed father prevented his playing and
(02:44):
again and again. So that insight from the depth study
of this one person with a whole group of experts
that from all over the world really to study him,
me to spent a year of research studying homicidal males
(03:05):
in the Texas prison system and comparing them to a
cohort of individuals who were matched as far as age
and demography and so on, and they didn't play. The
homicidal people didn't play, and the others had more normal
play patterns. So that's long time ago. That's what got
(03:27):
me professionally curious about what is play exactly. So I'm
an old guy, So we could spend the whole hour
talking about my background, and I think we've got other
things to do. But I've spent a lot of years
studying play, the neuroscience that play play itself, and the
(03:50):
National Geographic sponsored me for a period of four years
or so to study wild animals that play in the wild.
So I've had some exposure to play itself, and hopefully
you and the rest of us who listen to this
will play more as a result of learning about it.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Oh you know, I love That was such an unexpected answer,
And what this is why I love not researching too much.
I do enough research to try and find the very
best person in the world for the topic I want
to talk about, and then I don't dive to because
I get so excited when I hear this. So I
don't know if that if that story, if you've if
(04:32):
you've got that anywhere on your websites or anything that
I was like, Oh, I didn't know it started there.
That's that's insane. When you were studying that particular area,
what were the other things, What were the other aspects
that you were looking at? And when did hey, let's
look at how much play these guys are getting.
Speaker 5 (04:52):
Oh, we looked at poverty, we looked at abuse, we
looked at isolation, we looked at out genetics, we looked
at as many elements of the individuals that we studied
as possible, and did the same as much as we
could for the people that.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
We matched them with.
Speaker 5 (05:13):
The initial mass murderer, whose name was Charles Whitman. We
had the resources and the personnel and a focus that
was allowed that particular study to go into greater.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Depth, I think than any of the subsequent school shooter.
Speaker 5 (05:35):
Phenomena, which is sadly has happened again and again.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
That was a different level.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
It was then the most severe mass murder in the
history of the US, and so the resources for that
particular research were greater than the subsequent others.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
But the play element.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
Revealed itself again and again and again in individuals who
were anti social violent.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
Wow, not very playful.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Yeah, no, no, how did At what point did you?
I was going to say, drag these but I wouldn't
take much dragging into a family business that revolves around
fun and play. So at what point did Lauren and Maya?
Did you join the team and get as obsessed with play?
Easy thing to get obsessed with.
Speaker 6 (06:33):
Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I've always been
a huge.
Speaker 7 (06:37):
Fan of my dad's work here, and I had quite
a varied career and did a lot of different things
and really always was just a student of this and
tried to incorporate it into my own life.
Speaker 6 (06:49):
I've gotten much.
Speaker 7 (06:49):
Better at that recently and really leaned into it in
the last couple of years with a role here at
the National Institute for Play. So I think what's really
fun question, and kind of the crux of this is
not so much how it played out in my life,
because he was still practicing and it wasn't so evident
then that, you know, all of his research hadn't been
(07:11):
done when I was a kid. But by the time
Mia came around, I was pretty committed to saying, wow,
this really makes sense, and so as a parent I
was able to sort of take the leap of faith
that said, hey, we can do more and more play
based education with the kids, and let's see, let's see
what happens.
Speaker 6 (07:31):
It's always a little bit of a roll of the dice.
Speaker 7 (07:33):
I'm in Boulder, Colorado, which is a really awesome place
to live. We're super privileged to be here, and there
were a lot of great schools, different kinds of schools.
And I might just hand it off to Mia to
talk a little bit about her schooling and how how
that happened, because it's kind of a it's just a
fun story and it sort of brings it full circle
(07:54):
with these three generations.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (07:56):
Sure, well I'm first of all, I'm involved because I've
lived it and live it is the best way to
believe in it. And having lived it and believed in it,
I'm like, I've got to share this. So I was
just lucky to be born into it. That's really all
I have to say. But yeah, I think my grandpa
and my mom identified early that I was a big
(08:17):
mover and being a mover in a kinestete is one
of the ways that some people play, and for me,
that was kind of my primary play personality. And we
can get into what that means a little bit later.
But when they identified that, and they identified that I
learned best while I was moving and while I could
be bouncing on a ball or doing other things and whatnot,
(08:37):
They're like, all right, like, let's think about what maybe
like less traditional type of schooling might nourish this learning style,
in this play style.
Speaker 9 (08:45):
And so I went to an awesome charter.
Speaker 8 (08:47):
School in Boulder that was all about self directed learning
and finding things that you are passionate about exploring and
doing it for its own sake. There wasn't even grades.
It was like learning how to learn at its core
and celebrating whatever way you learned best, which for me
was through movement. And so I kind of like just
(09:08):
was able to kind of nurture that growing up. And
I think so many of us, like you were saying,
when you talk to adults, you talk about fun, and
they're like fun, Like, shoot, I haven't thought about that
in ten years, to take what do you mean fun?
And so for me, it was like this amazing journey
of I was also a gymnast, so I did gymnastics
because that was my ultimate form of play. And I
(09:30):
was fortunate enough to follow that all the way through
the NCAA Division one level and also to coach at
the Division one level, and I was just like, that
was my play nature, kind of like being traced all
the way through adulthood in a career and so I
just feel so lucky that I was able to like
nurture that, have that nurtured and follow it.
Speaker 9 (09:50):
So that's why I believe in this work. And that's
where I jumped in, Oh.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
I love that you made me think of three people,
two of which I've had on the podcast, and one
is any one of my favorite guests is an Australian school
teacher called Gavin McCormack, and he is a Montessori school
teacher and he is all about that style of learning
you just described. And when I speak to him, and
when you were talking, I got goosebumps. I'm like, oh,
(10:17):
I just press for rewind and take me back to
childhood and give me that, give me that. And then
I thought of Sir Ken Robinson when you're talking about
movement and that beautiful ted talk that he did. And
I cannot remember the third one I talked about. I
thought of, so there you go.
Speaker 9 (10:37):
Examples.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Yeah, yeah, and just that idea of what play is
for different people?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (10:46):
I don't know who to aim this question to, maybe
the first person to raise their hand with an answer,
But how difficult is it to have a teaching around
play and have all of that? I guess cognition that
you're doing thinking about it, developing it, understanding it, and
(11:08):
not turning it into a system that takes away the
play from the play.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
I jump into that, and I think the experience itself
transcends the analytic aspect of it. You don't ask a
smiling little baby who's joyfully got a social smile, that's
reacting joyfully to being teased, or being having fun with
(11:37):
a parent, or being tossed up in the air why
they are playing.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
It just happens. So I think at some.
Speaker 5 (11:45):
Level that quality of experiential comes first, and the state
of play, the joyfulness is really deeply embedded in our
nervous system. The right triggers whether you're an infant or
somebody in a memory care unit, and that you get triggered,
(12:08):
you get into a state of play. So I don't
know if that answers or deals with kind of your
question about it, but it sort of gives us sense
that play exists within us. It's differing with age and
gender and culture and with personality. I hope we get
(12:31):
a chance to talk about later, but it's part of us.
And when we don't get it, such as the young murderers,
we're in trouble.
Speaker 8 (12:46):
Yeah, I think too, that key You kind of got
to the crux of the hardest part about all of this, right,
is that play in itself is done for its own sake.
It's voluntary. There's not often a ton of structure. That
is the nature of it. And we live in a
society that continues to try and build in more and
more structure, and like we believe in the moral virtue
(13:07):
of work, and that play is even like the breeding
ground of sin, and you know, more consumption, more production,
like this is what makes us successful. And so we
have these systems that have been created that really try
and almost like commercialize play in a sense, and it's
contradictory to what play is itself. And so I think
(13:29):
that that is like the crux of why this work
matters is because that those two things are kind of
intention most often for a lot of people, particularly when
we get into adulthood. So I think what it comes
down to is being able to identify how a system
can support less structure, like how a system can create
more space and can create more creativity and can create
(13:51):
these like interesting and novel new ways to just actually,
instead of building in more structure, to take away some
of the structure and see what answers might be in
that space that's left.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
I love how you've articulated that. When I often talk
about this idea of play or doing something for ourselves,
I find that, yeah, there's this fine line of Okay,
how do we implement something new. We build a structure
and a routine. We'll find something that is spontaneous that
you haven't done, and do something for the sake of it,
(14:23):
you know, do something joyful, and then in order to
keep doing it, we try and build a structure around
it so we'll keep doing it, and then the novelty fades,
and novelty is half the enjoyment of it. So I
feel like that can be and I guess for me,
you might have more ideas or strategies for it. For me,
it is bringing people's awareness to these things. But I
(14:46):
don't have I don't always have an answer, and I
don't think the answer is the same for everybody.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
But maybe it is, and maybe you can tell me
right now.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
I don't think it's that simple. You know. To me, the.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
Is often in observing a young infant and what gives
them spontaneous glee, whether it's music or being touched, or
wiggling around, or a pet or a bright colored toy.
But you begin to have some sense of what spontaneously
(15:23):
lights their candle. And if that lighting of the candle
is nourished in the course of parenting, in the course
of education, that kid is going to probably choose a
profession and use their talents based on their play nature.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
And when that happens, we all are better off. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (15:47):
I want to add something to you back to this
question of productivity and you know, trying to a structure
of life. I mean, what's so ironic here is play
can actually make you more productive.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
You know.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
Productivity isn't just spending a bunch of stuff.
Speaker 7 (16:02):
Productivity is like doing the right things at the right time,
line up with your values and you know that in
accordance with your life and how you want to live it.
And play can increase your focus and you know, your
executive function and so many things in your brain will
go into this.
Speaker 6 (16:19):
For sure, because this is kind of the science.
Speaker 7 (16:22):
Has your back as you're going into play here, and
so it's just really, you know, we shouldn't think of
play as like this frivolous.
Speaker 6 (16:31):
Oh, I'm just out here doing something.
Speaker 7 (16:32):
It's actually a way to ground your life in more productivity,
meaning authenticity and the like.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
I have talked about and listened to content around that
idea of social contagion. And so one of the statements
I'd like to make to people is to not have
fun is the most self To not have fun is
the most selfish thing you can do, because you take
in eurochemistry, like you, when you have fun, you get
(17:04):
oxytocin and all those beautiful hormones and then you go
to other people and you infect them with that in
your presence. And so to not have fun, you take that,
you know, adrenaline and stress hormones and cortisol ridden body
of yours into into serious mode. And that's what that's
the version of you that you're spreading with people.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
That's exactly it. You got it, you got it, you
got it all right.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Now I'm having fun. See now I'm having fun. I'm
full of oxytocin.
Speaker 6 (17:35):
Now I want to come to one of your classes there.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
What about how hard is it too? I'm thinking about
the adults, So obviously we want it for parents and
families and that generation where we get to impact children
with this and offer them that that's amazing. What about
adults listening in and going play was never a part
(18:04):
of my upbringing, you know, getting good grades was a
part of my upbringing or making sure I was okay
because I'm really independent. And how do we support ourselves
as independent adults and developing these play habits.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Well, I'll jump into that one again.
Speaker 5 (18:21):
I think we don't tend to prioritize play as something
that's as fundamental as washing your hands or eating a
good diet or you know, getting outdoors every once in
a while just because it's good for you. Well, play
is an intensive part of human nature, so that when
(18:44):
you don't prioritize it, it's there is a lack of
personal hygiene that's associated with play deficit. So I think
having the general cultural understanding of it's important to you personally,
and then how do you play yourself that's a whole
(19:07):
other issue. But to be able to prioritize it and
say this is a significant element for me to be
fully human. I'm just not going to be a fully
human being without play.
Speaker 8 (19:24):
Yeah, I would say too, Like, I mean, experimentation is
a huge part of play, and you know, like when
you're playing, your amgdala calms down and it gives you
the permission to take risks and be less afraid of
failure and make mistakes and not have those you know,
big consequences for them. And so for adults who haven't played,
like experiment with play like figure out you know, do
(19:47):
you like to collect things? Do you like to joke
around you?
Speaker 7 (19:50):
Like?
Speaker 9 (19:50):
Are you an artist? Are you a mover?
Speaker 6 (19:52):
Like?
Speaker 8 (19:52):
You know, there's and we'll get into the personalities I'm
sure at some point, but kind of like what is
it for you that gets you into that state or
as my bo said, that play trigger you know, and
like just just mess.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Around with it. I'm loving this.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
We've all brought up play personalities a few times now
and my curiosity is going off tap. So we're gonna
have to dive into that now and need to know.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
Okay, well, I think Bea is the one to give
that rundown.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
What do you think? Oh? Sure?
Speaker 8 (20:24):
Only because of you, though, well, I think it deserves
another bit of background in history on my grandpa and
how cool he is. But he's conducted, you know, thousands
and thousands of play histories, and in those play histories
he's noticed some patterns start to come up in terms
of the way that people play. And so he had
(20:45):
kind of identified eight play personalities that aren't meant to
be like rigid and profiling, but just a framework to help,
like you're saying, adults and people just understand better what
activities and things might make them enter that state of play.
And so those personalities are the artist's creator. Those are like,
you know, the creative type, the making things, the crafters,
(21:07):
the designers, the joker, so you know, the humor and
the silliness and just wanting to make other people's laugh
as a form of play. The competitor, so that those
are that like rare breed of athlete where you see
where like they thrive under the highest level of pressure,
like that is play to them. There's also the explorer,
so just people who love to explore, whether that's like
(21:28):
places or even like stories or concepts or emotional things whatever.
Speaker 9 (21:32):
That is the director.
Speaker 8 (21:34):
Those are the people who might play organizing their juncture
or something.
Speaker 9 (21:40):
And then there's.
Speaker 8 (21:41):
The collector too, so people who like to collect things,
the storyteller.
Speaker 9 (21:45):
I think my grandpa has turned into one of those.
Speaker 8 (21:47):
And then finally the kinnesty, which is what I mentioned
that I am. And so yeah, again, you can fit
into multiple categories. It may evolve over your life as
you experience new things, but it's just a way to
help people kind of dive into those activities that make
them plea for.
Speaker 6 (22:05):
Where do you fit on that spectrum?
Speaker 7 (22:06):
TIF, I'm curious, I'm I'm trying to tag you with
what you've already told us, and I'm guessing like some
competitor in there, there's definitely the kinnessthe what do you think?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Yeah, you know what's funny because there were so many
of them where I was like, oh, bit of that,
oh bit of that. You know. Definitely the competitor is
a big one, a bit of the creative, but also
that kinesthetic. What I find really interesting over the last
few years is recognizing I got into boxing at twenty
(22:38):
nine and and one of the biggest gifts I had
in that space was just this tenacity and this willingness
to do the hard thing and to not feel and
to not react inside that really hard, terrifying environment. And
then over a short period of time, it brought up
past experiences that I'd suppressed that I dealt with from childhood,
(23:01):
and I'm like, oh, there's some work to do here,
And so I went into doing a lot of work
on emotions and intuition and feeling and bringing all of
that to the surface. So I look at kind of
in the past that those personality profiles and some of
the tests that you do and the things where I
wasn't very kinesthetic, and it was like that was shut down.
(23:21):
But once I'd got into boxing and started to bring
it up, it's I'm very kinesthetic. Now, I'm a doer.
I'm a fidgiti, I'm an get in amongst it, not
like sitting still. But you guys, what are all your
play personalities.
Speaker 6 (23:38):
That's a great story.
Speaker 7 (23:39):
By the way, I'm like me, I'm someone who likes
to move, have always been that way. I'm really social,
so if i'm and I love the outdoors, So if
I'm outdoors moving with the people I love, that's kind
of it for me. Lately, I've gotten really into dance,
which I love. It's the more I do it, the
more any self consciousness disappears, the better I feel, the
(24:01):
better my life is, the better I can handle things.
It's really remarkable knowing what I know about play. I've
kind of been a little bit more of a student
of this, but I can tell you it's you know,
the things that you say about play and creating resilience, adaptability,
you know, reducing your stress have absolutely been true for
me with my dance.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Love that Maya, Oh, you've talked about yours. You're I
feel like your door right in the boxing ring, Mayor.
Speaker 8 (24:30):
I'm definitely a competitor too, But again, like that was
that was that came out a lot more in my
gymnastics career, and now I would say I'm more like
the Kinnessee explorer than the Kinnessee competitor. But yeah, I'm
pretty I got all. I got a lot of that
in there too.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Yeah, amazing. And Doc what does the docs play play personality?
Speaker 4 (24:51):
Well?
Speaker 5 (24:51):
I was just thinking about that and about fifteen minutes
before the podcast started, Cookie, a dog that I share
with a renter, came up to the doorway and gave
me a long, intense cookie look directly into my eyes,
(25:15):
and I thought, well, at this moment, I'm a kind
of a oxytocin laden social dog, human player. So that
there was a sense of freedom and kind of a
sense of a shared moment with that dog, and that's
(25:37):
really a precious part of today for me. It was
just unexpected great. So, as MIAs said, you know, my
longing to get to Wimbledon or play at the US
Open in tennis didn't happen. And the ten years I
(25:59):
spent playing pretty competitive tennis up until my eighties ended
when my partners either died or couldn't play anymore. So
that the storyteller component, which I like to do with,
which is what we're doing now, telling the story of
play itself, is playful for me. So you know, it's
(26:26):
even though I've kind of devised these eight archetypes of
more common clusters of playfulness, they don't They're not scientifically rigid.
And you just exemplified a mix of what I would
say the creator, the kinnisthe and the competitor, which are
(26:47):
part of who I think we're experiencing here today. But
for all of us to find those things that really
engage us, that take us into a state of play.
To me, that's a public health necessity for every one
of us. It's this is not minor advice from you know,
(27:10):
a senile old doctor. This is really really an important
component of our being human.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I one hundred percent agree with that, and I think that,
you know, one of the most important things. Loved this
whole self awareness journey, and it's beautiful. It's so helpful
when we have some guidelines around profiling personality traits and
finding ourselves through those lenses as a starting point. But
(27:43):
the idea I use a system called pH three sixty.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
So I did the studying.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Around that, and that's an epigenetic based personality like personality, body, mind,
spirit kind of you learn a lot about yourself. And
what's beautiful with what you were reminding me of is
there's specific health types we call them who so say
we're talking about working out. What's most important for a
(28:10):
couple of those health types is actually the environment they
work out in. And for two there's one called a connector. Right,
they're people people, and their archetype is a puppy dog
because what's most important for them when it comes to
working out is they want to have fun and being
a team and being a clan and so working out
alone in the gym by themselves is not going to
(28:32):
get results. But being in a fun, playful environment where
where they're making everybody they're just little oxytocin demons. And
it's exactly what you're describing here. And it's really important
to know that about yourself because we spend so much
time comparing to other people. Oh, that person gets results
and I don't. And it's like, might not be that
(28:53):
you're doing the wrong exercise. You might just need a
buddy to make you have some fun while you're doing it.
Speaker 6 (29:00):
Absolutely, And I love your story. You know you're on
story when you start.
Speaker 7 (29:03):
You talked about getting into the boxing ring at twenty nine,
and all this stuff comes up and then you get
better at it and then it becomes really central to
who you are. And one of the great quotes about
play is that it's practiced for life. Yeah, And that
just came to mind when you were telling your story
about that, because again, you kind of play the stuff
(29:24):
out and then when stuff really does hit you in life,
when you do get punched, as you say, roll with
the punches, you can.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
Roll with them.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Yeah. I think these days there seems to be such
an emphasis out there in the echo chamber of resilience
of do the hard thing, do hard things, do hard things,
and have all this ego and bravado around it, but
there's no context. And I've always said, we have to
do hard things, but those hard things have to be
fun to us. Like for me, there was nothing harder
(29:54):
than stepping into the boxing ring to get punched in
the face, to have your body fueled with adrenaline and
Europe and effort and all of the wild thoughts and
narrative that goes on. But for me, that was so
fun and purposeful, so it was worth it. If that
wasn't purposeful for me, it would not be worth it
will be terrifying things. So it's about finding things that
(30:16):
make you nervous that at the end of it you
love it and then you want to go back.
Speaker 8 (30:22):
Absolutely. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I got into mountain
boke greasing after my gymnastics career, and I like two
years and I signed up for one hundred mile mountain
bike grease and so many people were like, that's not
a hard thing, Like that's just crazy, and like for me,
that's to what you're saying like, that's my hard thing,
that's fun, that reminds me that I can do hard
(30:44):
things for me.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
That is way more terrifying than a punch in the face.
I went for one e bike mountain bike ride in
Tazzy with my uncle recently and I was like, this
is so dangerous.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
I am terrified. Give me punch me in the face
any day of the week.
Speaker 9 (31:00):
Yeah, I disagree with that. On the opposite, I disagree.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
Isn't that great with the National Play Institute? What what
are we doing? What do we what or what's the
biggest barrier? What are we what are the pills that
we're teaching or we're achieving? See how I've just made
myself part of the team and this has become a way.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
But what we've been doing here is part.
Speaker 5 (31:28):
Of the essence of the National Institute for Play, which
is to bring the essence of what play is into
more full activity and public consciousness and implement it into
schools and learning and parent parenting where it's across the
board and the let's say the assembly line approach to
(31:51):
education which Henry Ford helped establish, and the feeling of
you've got to get your kid into to Princeton or
Harvard or you know, I don't know where in Australia
the best the same pressure is on, but I'm sure
it's there. But to begin to say, wait a minute,
(32:15):
this is not the essence of life. The essence of
life is to do something for within yourself, which is authentic,
which engages you, which produces a sense of purpose and mastery,
even if it's avoiding getting punched in the face.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
You know, I'm serious.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Yeah, I train a young girl trained it for the
last few years, and she's fourteen when she started with me,
and she's very smart and very academic, and we've had
a lot of conversations and she talks about grades, and
she talks about what she might she might be in
the undertones of what pressure is on young children today.
And there's times that I've just said, all mate, you
(32:59):
could punch people in the face in a gym and
be a personal trainer and probably live your best life.
I was like, I am living my very best life.
I'm having such fun every single day, hanging out with
people I love, doing the thing that lights me up.
Speaker 9 (33:14):
Amazing, that's fantastic.
Speaker 7 (33:17):
I think of, you know, your culture as being way
healthier than ours here in the US, and you know,
you guys uses every rc I knows how to have fun,
and wow, they're in Melbourne with urban surf, and you
know these other new surf parks that are coming up
the break where Mia and I are aspiring surfers and
we could definitely use that.
Speaker 6 (33:38):
But it's funny to hear you say that again, because.
Speaker 7 (33:41):
I maybe my views aren't correct, but I feel like
we're pretty upside down here in the US on a
lot of our priorities. And again, you guys lead the
way it appears. But what do you think about that?
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Well, I just wonder if you also think that we
are all fighting kangaroos on every intersection over here. We
recently saw a video that went viral over here where
there was a big kangaroo in an intersection on a
road and there was a dog barking at it and
they would bouncing around and just all the comments of like,
(34:13):
this is what this is what you know, this is
what everybody else in the world thinks Australia is like
every day.
Speaker 7 (34:19):
No, no, no, I think you guys are just superior.
Speaker 9 (34:22):
That's mainly we do have.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
We do have a very playful cheeky, fun, self deprecating
essence tools.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
So I think, which I love.
Speaker 8 (34:34):
I think that's what we're that's what we're out to
find right at the National super Play. And I think
just to pegback on what my grandpa said about that
is like, yeah, what you said is, you know, it
starts with awareness, like and so that's kind of the
starting point for us as just building that awareness, but
also really trying to make it practical for people, you know,
like helping them understand that play isn't the opposite of work,
(34:57):
it's just like something that can support their work and whatnot.
And so to give them just like within each personality
some like really practical ways to implement it and maybe
even to use it as a competitive advantage in business.
And then also you know, in terms of customer relationships
and like it seems to fit since it's so the
essence of humanity and who we are as humans, it
(35:19):
really fits in every category of life, whether that's relationships
or work or parenting or whatnot, And so figuring out
what those categories are and like how we can kind
of dive into each of them and give sort of
like specific recommendations in each area of life is like,
I think the broad scope of what the work can be.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
What tends to be the biggest barrier that comes up
that you come up against. You like you going and
you're introducing this concept of play. What are the most
common things that seem to get in the way for
people or beliefs?
Speaker 5 (35:54):
Oh, there are a lot of them, But I think
it depends that somewhat on age. I think the for
middle aged people, the feeling that it's frivolous and that
their life has to be devoted to accomplishment, which has
taking out the garbage and paying the mortgage and saving
(36:15):
money and getting your kids into college, so that there
is a sense that the importance of play is diminished
as compared to productivity and outcome.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
And I think that's a.
Speaker 5 (36:29):
Cultural phenomenon that is general and it may not be
as intense in Australia. And there's certainly exceptions here where
you know, nonsense is honored and play is enjoyed, but
you know, in general, the cultural norms are not to honor,
(36:56):
particularly in adulthood playfulness. And then I think the evidence
for kids who are screen either addicted or screen use
is eight.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
Hours a day.
Speaker 5 (37:10):
And you know, I read some things today, just how
much screen use is and how little that interpersonal play,
and the idea that you've got to get involved in
some rough and tumble and risk taking play as a
source of learning how to get along with others and
how to tolerate the differences. And if you don't get
(37:33):
the play, you're going to be anti social or dissocial
or hampered in your personal interpersonal skills. So I think,
you know, we've got a wonderful mandate to bring play
more completely into the world as we know it. And fortunately,
(37:53):
the science about the neuroscience in particular of play is
just really solid. It's wired into the sub cortex of
the brain for where our survival centers are. And the
animal play is pervasive. If you look at the five
hundred million year heritage of an octopus being in the
(38:16):
ocean that.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
Long, and they play and so do you know, so.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
Do the neurove transmitters that are part of the octopus
or a jellyfish existence. So the looking at the evolution
of play behavior, one sees that it has been around
for millions and millions of years. It's fostered survival, belonging, adaptation, etc.
(38:44):
So I can go on and on the storyteller would
take over, so I'll shut out.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
I'd love to hear like just with the other two
just based on I guess generation and ages, if you
find there's different barriers.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
So, Lauren, what do you what do you think?
Speaker 7 (39:02):
You know, I'm in a good spot right now because
my kids are now, you know, in college, out of college,
and I've got more freedom to explore. And I'm old
enough that I just don't I don't care as much,
you know, I'm more willing to do the things that
I want to do and to be myself.
Speaker 6 (39:22):
It's one of the benefits of being over fifty, you know.
I think it's it's a it's unfortunate that it takes
this long.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Funny, she looks good for other fifty yards.
Speaker 6 (39:33):
Oh thank you. So it's a nice zoom lighting here.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
If that is the prescription of play in, let's all
get on it.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
That is a wonder drug. The wonder drug.
Speaker 6 (39:42):
We definitely, I mean it.
Speaker 7 (39:44):
Is it is I think, you know, in the in
the earlier years again, it's that same thing of.
Speaker 6 (39:49):
You got to be productive, you got to do certain things.
Speaker 7 (39:52):
I'm just really fortunate because I had my dad's you know,
teachings and I could follow those and then again kind
of put make those central to raising the kids.
Speaker 6 (40:01):
I actually took a lot of time off of work
to raise the kids.
Speaker 7 (40:04):
I was it was real luxury. I was super privileged
to be able to do that. But and I think
that made it a little bit easier for sure. That
was a pretty obvious and conscious choice to make. Again,
not for everybody, but it worked great for me and
kept kind of that playful spirit alive a little bit more.
Speaker 8 (40:19):
I think, Yeah, so I would say, you know, I'm
in I'm of the screen generation. I'm of the twenty
second you know, attention span generation. And I would say
I write as I've done this work more. One of
the biggest barriers I see is people don't know what
(40:42):
play is. They're like, I'll say, oh, yeah, I work
for the National and super play. What do you mean
by play? Like I play with my dog, Like I
go for a while, like what is what is play?
Speaker 3 (40:52):
You know?
Speaker 9 (40:52):
Like what do you mean?
Speaker 8 (40:53):
Like they're almost like you that exists, like you can
work about play like so I think, like I just
run into the barrier of like trying to like it
takes me more than like three words to explain to
people what I'm doing. So that's kind of hard sometimes.
But then I think the biggest barrier that I see,
like more consistently and just that is actually a problem
(41:15):
to the actual play work is just the screens. The
way that like social media in particular has just like
ingrained and woven itself into the fabric of our society,
and it is such an easy alternative to play because
instead of socializing with somebody, instead of having a playful
moment in the elevator with somebody, we resort to our screens,
(41:38):
and so we just lose these moments that we don't
even know we're losing because of our devices. And then
when you don't play, you forget how to play, and
you have to like reintegrate it back into your life,
you know. Like so I think we're just slowly like
starting to lose that with our devices, and so I
think just like trying to pull people out once they're in,
(41:59):
you know, like media is a dopamine hit. It's not played, like,
it doesn't have lasting benefits, it has lasting detriments. So
it's like there's a clear cut line from like, yeah,
some video games might be able to be playful but
like a lot of what we do on our devices
is just simply not play for anyone at any point.
Speaker 9 (42:15):
But it's easy and.
Speaker 8 (42:17):
It's right there, and it's like a lot easier than
trying to, like, you know, be social and do these
things that we've become uncomfortable with. So anyway, I think
that's the biggest barrier for my generation.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Yeah, that's such a.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
I was thinking before. I think you mentioned it because
I wrote it down. Someone mentioned loneliness or disconnection, like
the idea of that loneliness epidemic that's going on, of
that we're living this life of real independence and disconnection now,
like we're more crowded than ever in places, but the
more crowded we are, like cities, the more disconnected and
(42:53):
isolated we tend to be living. And then I think
the same about creativity. It's like if we it just
went we just incorporated play, all of the things that
solves those two problems is right there. Like what happens
when you just play, well, you're open and you connect
and you have fun and you build relationship and then
(43:15):
there's no loneliness because you're in present in the play.
Same with creativity. I mean I am on one hundred
percent guilty for continually finding myself in a state of
produced produced more and more and more. And I've pulled
up this year more than ever. But it's taken me
years of working seven days a week and just being
on this like, yeah, I do cool stuff, but I
(43:37):
do it to the point where it's just busyness. And
I was like, God, I've lost I'm losing my ability
to create because I'm so busy.
Speaker 4 (43:49):
That's a barrier.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Yeah, fix that. Fix that.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
What are some of the initiatives that you guys have
tried or put out there or or provide for people.
Speaker 4 (44:04):
Oh, there are lots of them.
Speaker 5 (44:06):
I worked for a while with a very innovative man
dealing with corporate innovation, and what we tried to do
for research and development areas of these corporations was provide
the researchers with something entirely different and unique that they'd
(44:30):
never done before. For example, we would craft a piece
of clay into a shape that was a nothing shape,
and they were blindfolded, and you'd hand them this piece
of clay and tell them to create something useful out
of it, and they would laugh and have all kinds
(44:52):
of fun. But then not that that was so significant,
but then when they would deal with corporate issues after
they had gone through this experience, they were much more
fertile with ideas than they had been when they had
hadn't had this unnamed substance in their hands beforehand. And
(45:17):
part of this was because there is such a thing
called hand brain coevolution, where the hand itself is part
of fertilization of the brain, so that when the hand
is grabbing something that's unknown, it tries to make it known.
And that was part of the creative influence that this
(45:41):
very innovative corporate person had thought up and had me
put into action.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
I'll tell you what, My hands have made a thing
or two known over time.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
The boxing ring. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
And I also just recently took up learned teaching myself
off the piano for this exact reason.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
I was like, how can I do.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
Something creative and fun and unme something that's not related
to anything that my cell for my current echo chamber
of friends do. And it's been beautiful. It's been a
beautiful kind of and frustrated. You know how hard the
piano is?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Hey, what was that?
Speaker 4 (46:24):
I said?
Speaker 5 (46:24):
It's a long way to play the piano from getting
punched to the fees.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
It's made me want me to punch. It's made me
want to punch myself in the face. This is so
hard to get, you know, like I'm learning a new language,
which is music. I'm learning this new language that I
don't know how to speak. I'm reading two rows of
that language at the same time, this language I don't
know how to read yet. And then I'm asking two
(46:50):
hands to do two different things at the same time
on a whole bunch of eighty eight keys that all
look the bloody saying that I don't know what they are.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
It is the hardest thing ever, ye know, from my neighbors.
Speaker 7 (47:06):
Maybe it will start to become playful, and you know,
that would be fantastic.
Speaker 6 (47:10):
I don't know, that's probably a pretty tall order.
Speaker 7 (47:13):
But one of the fun things that you get when
you are truly in a state of play, which I
certainly couldn't be learning the piano. I don't think maybe
you'll get there, is that you actually do start to
want to master what you're doing. You know, play leads
to mastery. So again, it's like this, people think, oh,
I'm just playing, It's just frivolous.
Speaker 6 (47:34):
But actually, if you're truly in the state of play,
you're going to want to get better. It just sort
of happens.
Speaker 7 (47:37):
You're going to be engaged, it's going to be a
flow state, You're going to feel good, and you're going
to keep going.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Look, sometimes I'm banging away there and I'm having the
best time, and I sound ridiculous, and I think, oh my,
my neighbors must be so sick of this caper.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
But yeah, no, it's very fun.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
Is there anything that I haven't asked that you guys
want to share about play that I've missed?
Speaker 4 (48:02):
You know?
Speaker 5 (48:03):
One of the things I think that is not known
generally is that there is a consequence for play deprivation.
And being a physician, I have learned that there are
things like scurvy from lack of vitamin C and barry
very lack of vitamin B. There are deficiency diseases, and
(48:26):
from the study of the Murders and certain reviews of
highly deficient play histories, I have this sense that people
who are missing long, severe missing of play are really
suffering from that deficit, and that is not known.
Speaker 4 (48:48):
We don't think of play deficit.
Speaker 5 (48:50):
In that way, So I think there's I would add
that to sort of the comprehensiveness of this very good
interview that you've conducted.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
I love the term play deficit. Anything else from Lauren
and Maya that I've missed.
Speaker 8 (49:09):
I would just hope that this conversation gives you permission
to play and to give others permission to play.
Speaker 7 (49:16):
We'll live right, absolutely, absolutely, That's kind of what we're
here to do, is just get the conversation out there
so people know, hey, this is really good for you.
There's a lot more to it than just like I said,
you know, fun and frivolity. So we really appreciate the interview,
and yeah, it's a delight to talk.
Speaker 5 (49:33):
With you, and I think there is some depth. If
you've got some scholars that are watching, We've reviewed a
bunch of articles and books that can be tediously linked
through the through the website, but if they're curious, they
(49:56):
can find out more, I think, more about the science
of play and be grounded in it, which is of
course also part.
Speaker 4 (50:04):
Of our mission.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
I'm going to have links to your website in the
show notes. Is there anywhere else you want to point
people to or anything you'd like to promote.
Speaker 9 (50:14):
We're also on Instagram.
Speaker 8 (50:15):
There's videos of Doctor Brown dancing on Instagram if you
want to see that.
Speaker 9 (50:20):
We're at Plea Institute. So yeah, I know he looks.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
Let me tell you, I am heading straight there.
Speaker 3 (50:29):
I've just found myself a new Instagram crush, which is
this eccentric bloke somebody pointed out early because his name's
Hugo Hugo Hamlet go check him out. It's it's really eccentric,
quirky bloke and he's got blue, fuzzy hair with a
bold patch on the back of his head. But he
talks about the most deep philosophical stuff about life. And
(50:51):
then sometimes he just has these videos where he's dancing
in the middle of a forest and I'm just addicted
to So I'm like, there's something about this guy that
is so it's like watching a child. I'm like, I
just can't stop watching. I'm not even end up dancing
in a.
Speaker 6 (51:09):
Forest somewhere awesome.
Speaker 7 (51:12):
You know, I think you're going to feel the same
way when you when you look at our Instagram. I mean,
you know we need to we need to help Doctor
Brown's dance and go viral.
Speaker 9 (51:20):
Here I'm heading over there, I'm.
Speaker 5 (51:23):
Not so sure that's a good idea, but I'm.
Speaker 9 (51:27):
Heading over there now.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
Everyone go and check out the Institute to play in
the show notes and thank you guys so much.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
It was such a pleasure to speak to you. Thank you,
she said.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
It's now ever I got fighting in my blood.
Speaker 5 (52:02):
D
She said, it's now never I got fighting in my blood.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm tiff.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
This is role with the punches and we're turning life's
hardest hits into wins.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Nobody wants to go to court, and don't.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
My friends at test Art Family Lawyers know that they
offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. Their team of
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(00:38):
Test Art is in your corner, so reach out to
Mark and the team at www dot test Artfamilylawyers dot
com dot au. All right, everyone, I have three guests
to welcome today. This is exciting, not just three guests,
but three generations dot com to Stuart Brown, his daughter
(01:02):
Lauren Sunstrom and his granddaughter Maya Sunstrom.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Welcome the three of you to the show. Thank you
for coming, Thank you.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
King to be in Australia with you.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I wish you were in Australia. I wish we were
all sitting in a room together, especially for the topic
that we're about to talk about. Hey, yeah, how did
it all start? Stuart play the science of play? How
did you even get obsessed with this?
Speaker 5 (01:33):
Listen, we all start up players, So you know, I
think I had a good family background when I was
a little kid that was very pro play, so that
my youth was not terribly complicated other than just.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
For playing, but professionally.
Speaker 5 (01:55):
I got involved in play because I studied initially murderer
who had killed a bunch of people off the top
of the Texas University of Texas tower, and he himself
was killed in the act of his tragic wounding of
fourteen and wounding of thirty two and killing of fourteen.
(02:19):
And I was part of a commission because I was
a young psychiatrist at the time, and we delved into
his background, his brain, everything we could find out about him.
And one of the most penetrating aspects of his existence
was that his highly disturbed father prevented his playing and
(02:44):
again and again. So that insight from the depth study
of this one person with a whole group of experts
that from all over the world really to study him,
me to spent a year of research studying homicidal males
(03:05):
in the Texas prison system and comparing them to a
cohort of individuals who were matched as far as age
and demography and so on, and they didn't play. The
homicidal people didn't play, and the others had more normal
play patterns. So that's long time ago. That's what got
(03:27):
me professionally curious about what is play exactly. So I'm
an old guy, So we could spend the whole hour
talking about my background, and I think we've got other
things to do. But I've spent a lot of years
studying play, the neuroscience that play play itself, and the
(03:50):
National Geographic sponsored me for a period of four years
or so to study wild animals that play in the wild.
So I've had some exposure to play itself, and hopefully
you and the rest of us who listen to this
will play more as a result of learning about it.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Oh you know, I love That was such an unexpected answer,
And what this is why I love not researching too much.
I do enough research to try and find the very
best person in the world for the topic I want
to talk about, and then I don't dive to because
I get so excited when I hear this. So I
don't know if that if that story, if you've if
(04:32):
you've got that anywhere on your websites or anything that
I was like, Oh, I didn't know it started there.
That's that's insane. When you were studying that particular area,
what were the other things, What were the other aspects
that you were looking at? And when did hey, let's
look at how much play these guys are getting.
Speaker 5 (04:52):
Oh, we looked at poverty, we looked at abuse, we
looked at isolation, we looked at out genetics, we looked
at as many elements of the individuals that we studied
as possible, and did the same as much as we
could for the people that.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
We matched them with.
Speaker 5 (05:13):
The initial mass murderer, whose name was Charles Whitman. We
had the resources and the personnel and a focus that
was allowed that particular study to go into greater.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Depth, I think than any of the subsequent school shooter.
Speaker 5 (05:35):
Phenomena, which is sadly has happened again and again.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
That was a different level.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
It was then the most severe mass murder in the
history of the US, and so the resources for that
particular research were greater than the subsequent others.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
But the play element.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
Revealed itself again and again and again in individuals who
were anti social violent.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
Wow, not very playful.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Yeah, no, no, how did At what point did you?
I was going to say, drag these but I wouldn't
take much dragging into a family business that revolves around
fun and play. So at what point did Lauren and Maya?
Did you join the team and get as obsessed with play?
Easy thing to get obsessed with.
Speaker 6 (06:33):
Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I've always been
a huge.
Speaker 7 (06:37):
Fan of my dad's work here, and I had quite
a varied career and did a lot of different things
and really always was just a student of this and
tried to incorporate it into my own life.
Speaker 6 (06:49):
I've gotten much.
Speaker 7 (06:49):
Better at that recently and really leaned into it in
the last couple of years with a role here at
the National Institute for Play. So I think what's really
fun question, and kind of the crux of this is
not so much how it played out in my life,
because he was still practicing and it wasn't so evident
then that, you know, all of his research hadn't been
(07:11):
done when I was a kid. But by the time
Mia came around, I was pretty committed to saying, wow,
this really makes sense, and so as a parent I
was able to sort of take the leap of faith
that said, hey, we can do more and more play
based education with the kids, and let's see, let's see
what happens.
Speaker 6 (07:31):
It's always a little bit of a roll of the dice.
Speaker 7 (07:33):
I'm in Boulder, Colorado, which is a really awesome place
to live. We're super privileged to be here, and there
were a lot of great schools, different kinds of schools.
And I might just hand it off to Mia to
talk a little bit about her schooling and how how
that happened, because it's kind of a it's just a
fun story and it sort of brings it full circle
(07:54):
with these three generations.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (07:56):
Sure, well I'm first of all, I'm involved because I've
lived it and live it is the best way to
believe in it. And having lived it and believed in it,
I'm like, I've got to share this. So I was
just lucky to be born into it. That's really all
I have to say. But yeah, I think my grandpa
and my mom identified early that I was a big
(08:17):
mover and being a mover in a kinestete is one
of the ways that some people play, and for me,
that was kind of my primary play personality. And we
can get into what that means a little bit later.
But when they identified that, and they identified that I
learned best while I was moving and while I could
be bouncing on a ball or doing other things and whatnot,
(08:37):
They're like, all right, like, let's think about what maybe
like less traditional type of schooling might nourish this learning style,
in this play style.
Speaker 9 (08:45):
And so I went to an awesome charter.
Speaker 8 (08:47):
School in Boulder that was all about self directed learning
and finding things that you are passionate about exploring and
doing it for its own sake. There wasn't even grades.
It was like learning how to learn at its core
and celebrating whatever way you learned best, which for me
was through movement. And so I kind of like just
(09:08):
was able to kind of nurture that growing up. And
I think so many of us, like you were saying,
when you talk to adults, you talk about fun, and
they're like fun, Like, shoot, I haven't thought about that
in ten years, to take what do you mean fun?
And so for me, it was like this amazing journey
of I was also a gymnast, so I did gymnastics
because that was my ultimate form of play. And I
(09:30):
was fortunate enough to follow that all the way through
the NCAA Division one level and also to coach at
the Division one level, and I was just like, that
was my play nature, kind of like being traced all
the way through adulthood in a career and so I
just feel so lucky that I was able to like
nurture that, have that nurtured and follow it.
Speaker 9 (09:50):
So that's why I believe in this work. And that's
where I jumped in, Oh.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
I love that you made me think of three people,
two of which I've had on the podcast, and one
is any one of my favorite guests is an Australian school
teacher called Gavin McCormack, and he is a Montessori school
teacher and he is all about that style of learning
you just described. And when I speak to him, and
when you were talking, I got goosebumps. I'm like, oh,
(10:17):
I just press for rewind and take me back to
childhood and give me that, give me that. And then
I thought of Sir Ken Robinson when you're talking about
movement and that beautiful ted talk that he did. And
I cannot remember the third one I talked about. I
thought of, so there you go.
Speaker 9 (10:37):
Examples.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Yeah, yeah, and just that idea of what play is
for different people?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (10:46):
I don't know who to aim this question to, maybe
the first person to raise their hand with an answer,
But how difficult is it to have a teaching around
play and have all of that? I guess cognition that
you're doing thinking about it, developing it, understanding it, and
(11:08):
not turning it into a system that takes away the
play from the play.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
I jump into that, and I think the experience itself
transcends the analytic aspect of it. You don't ask a
smiling little baby who's joyfully got a social smile, that's
reacting joyfully to being teased, or being having fun with
(11:37):
a parent, or being tossed up in the air why
they are playing.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
It just happens. So I think at some.
Speaker 5 (11:45):
Level that quality of experiential comes first, and the state
of play, the joyfulness is really deeply embedded in our
nervous system. The right triggers whether you're an infant or
somebody in a memory care unit, and that you get triggered,
(12:08):
you get into a state of play. So I don't
know if that answers or deals with kind of your
question about it, but it sort of gives us sense
that play exists within us. It's differing with age and
gender and culture and with personality. I hope we get
(12:31):
a chance to talk about later, but it's part of us.
And when we don't get it, such as the young murderers,
we're in trouble.
Speaker 8 (12:46):
Yeah, I think too, that key You kind of got
to the crux of the hardest part about all of this, right,
is that play in itself is done for its own sake.
It's voluntary. There's not often a ton of structure. That
is the nature of it. And we live in a
society that continues to try and build in more and
more structure, and like we believe in the moral virtue
(13:07):
of work, and that play is even like the breeding
ground of sin, and you know, more consumption, more production,
like this is what makes us successful. And so we
have these systems that have been created that really try
and almost like commercialize play in a sense, and it's
contradictory to what play is itself. And so I think
(13:29):
that that is like the crux of why this work
matters is because that those two things are kind of
intention most often for a lot of people, particularly when
we get into adulthood. So I think what it comes
down to is being able to identify how a system
can support less structure, like how a system can create
more space and can create more creativity and can create
(13:51):
these like interesting and novel new ways to just actually,
instead of building in more structure, to take away some
of the structure and see what answers might be in
that space that's left.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
I love how you've articulated that. When I often talk
about this idea of play or doing something for ourselves,
I find that, yeah, there's this fine line of Okay,
how do we implement something new. We build a structure
and a routine. We'll find something that is spontaneous that
you haven't done, and do something for the sake of it,
(14:23):
you know, do something joyful, and then in order to
keep doing it, we try and build a structure around
it so we'll keep doing it, and then the novelty fades,
and novelty is half the enjoyment of it. So I
feel like that can be and I guess for me,
you might have more ideas or strategies for it. For me,
it is bringing people's awareness to these things. But I
(14:46):
don't have I don't always have an answer, and I
don't think the answer is the same for everybody.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
But maybe it is, and maybe you can tell me
right now.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
I don't think it's that simple. You know. To me, the.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
Is often in observing a young infant and what gives
them spontaneous glee, whether it's music or being touched, or
wiggling around, or a pet or a bright colored toy.
But you begin to have some sense of what spontaneously
(15:23):
lights their candle. And if that lighting of the candle
is nourished in the course of parenting, in the course
of education, that kid is going to probably choose a
profession and use their talents based on their play nature.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
And when that happens, we all are better off. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (15:47):
I want to add something to you back to this
question of productivity and you know, trying to a structure
of life. I mean, what's so ironic here is play
can actually make you more productive.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
You know.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
Productivity isn't just spending a bunch of stuff.
Speaker 7 (16:02):
Productivity is like doing the right things at the right time,
line up with your values and you know that in
accordance with your life and how you want to live it.
And play can increase your focus and you know, your
executive function and so many things in your brain will
go into this.
Speaker 6 (16:19):
For sure, because this is kind of the science.
Speaker 7 (16:22):
Has your back as you're going into play here, and
so it's just really, you know, we shouldn't think of
play as like this frivolous.
Speaker 6 (16:31):
Oh, I'm just out here doing something.
Speaker 7 (16:32):
It's actually a way to ground your life in more productivity,
meaning authenticity and the like.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
I have talked about and listened to content around that
idea of social contagion. And so one of the statements
I'd like to make to people is to not have
fun is the most self To not have fun is
the most selfish thing you can do, because you take
in eurochemistry, like you, when you have fun, you get
(17:04):
oxytocin and all those beautiful hormones and then you go
to other people and you infect them with that in
your presence. And so to not have fun, you take that,
you know, adrenaline and stress hormones and cortisol ridden body
of yours into into serious mode. And that's what that's
the version of you that you're spreading with people.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
That's exactly it. You got it, you got it, you
got it all right.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Now I'm having fun. See now I'm having fun. I'm
full of oxytocin.
Speaker 6 (17:35):
Now I want to come to one of your classes there.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
What about how hard is it too? I'm thinking about
the adults, So obviously we want it for parents and
families and that generation where we get to impact children
with this and offer them that that's amazing. What about
adults listening in and going play was never a part
(18:04):
of my upbringing, you know, getting good grades was a
part of my upbringing or making sure I was okay
because I'm really independent. And how do we support ourselves
as independent adults and developing these play habits.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Well, I'll jump into that one again.
Speaker 5 (18:21):
I think we don't tend to prioritize play as something
that's as fundamental as washing your hands or eating a
good diet or you know, getting outdoors every once in
a while just because it's good for you. Well, play
is an intensive part of human nature, so that when
(18:44):
you don't prioritize it, it's there is a lack of
personal hygiene that's associated with play deficit. So I think
having the general cultural understanding of it's important to you personally,
and then how do you play yourself that's a whole
(19:07):
other issue. But to be able to prioritize it and
say this is a significant element for me to be
fully human. I'm just not going to be a fully
human being without play.
Speaker 8 (19:24):
Yeah, I would say too, Like, I mean, experimentation is
a huge part of play, and you know, like when
you're playing, your amgdala calms down and it gives you
the permission to take risks and be less afraid of
failure and make mistakes and not have those you know,
big consequences for them. And so for adults who haven't played,
like experiment with play like figure out you know, do
(19:47):
you like to collect things? Do you like to joke
around you?
Speaker 7 (19:50):
Like?
Speaker 9 (19:50):
Are you an artist? Are you a mover?
Speaker 6 (19:52):
Like?
Speaker 8 (19:52):
You know, there's and we'll get into the personalities I'm
sure at some point, but kind of like what is
it for you that gets you into that state or
as my bo said, that play trigger you know, and
like just just mess.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Around with it. I'm loving this.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
We've all brought up play personalities a few times now
and my curiosity is going off tap. So we're gonna
have to dive into that now and need to know.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
Okay, well, I think Bea is the one to give
that rundown.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
What do you think? Oh? Sure?
Speaker 8 (20:24):
Only because of you, though, well, I think it deserves
another bit of background in history on my grandpa and
how cool he is. But he's conducted, you know, thousands
and thousands of play histories, and in those play histories
he's noticed some patterns start to come up in terms
of the way that people play. And so he had
(20:45):
kind of identified eight play personalities that aren't meant to
be like rigid and profiling, but just a framework to help,
like you're saying, adults and people just understand better what
activities and things might make them enter that state of play.
And so those personalities are the artist's creator. Those are like,
you know, the creative type, the making things, the crafters,
(21:07):
the designers, the joker, so you know, the humor and
the silliness and just wanting to make other people's laugh
as a form of play. The competitor, so that those
are that like rare breed of athlete where you see
where like they thrive under the highest level of pressure,
like that is play to them. There's also the explorer,
so just people who love to explore, whether that's like
(21:28):
places or even like stories or concepts or emotional things whatever.
Speaker 9 (21:32):
That is the director.
Speaker 8 (21:34):
Those are the people who might play organizing their juncture
or something.
Speaker 9 (21:40):
And then there's.
Speaker 8 (21:41):
The collector too, so people who like to collect things,
the storyteller.
Speaker 9 (21:45):
I think my grandpa has turned into one of those.
Speaker 8 (21:47):
And then finally the kinnesty, which is what I mentioned
that I am. And so yeah, again, you can fit
into multiple categories. It may evolve over your life as
you experience new things, but it's just a way to
help people kind of dive into those activities that make
them plea for.
Speaker 6 (22:05):
Where do you fit on that spectrum?
Speaker 7 (22:06):
TIF, I'm curious, I'm I'm trying to tag you with
what you've already told us, and I'm guessing like some
competitor in there, there's definitely the kinnessthe what do you think?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Yeah, you know what's funny because there were so many
of them where I was like, oh, bit of that,
oh bit of that. You know. Definitely the competitor is
a big one, a bit of the creative, but also
that kinesthetic. What I find really interesting over the last
few years is recognizing I got into boxing at twenty
(22:38):
nine and and one of the biggest gifts I had
in that space was just this tenacity and this willingness
to do the hard thing and to not feel and
to not react inside that really hard, terrifying environment. And
then over a short period of time, it brought up
past experiences that I'd suppressed that I dealt with from childhood,
(23:01):
and I'm like, oh, there's some work to do here,
And so I went into doing a lot of work
on emotions and intuition and feeling and bringing all of
that to the surface. So I look at kind of
in the past that those personality profiles and some of
the tests that you do and the things where I
wasn't very kinesthetic, and it was like that was shut down.
(23:21):
But once I'd got into boxing and started to bring
it up, it's I'm very kinesthetic. Now, I'm a doer.
I'm a fidgiti, I'm an get in amongst it, not
like sitting still. But you guys, what are all your
play personalities.
Speaker 6 (23:38):
That's a great story.
Speaker 7 (23:39):
By the way, I'm like me, I'm someone who likes
to move, have always been that way. I'm really social,
so if i'm and I love the outdoors, So if
I'm outdoors moving with the people I love, that's kind
of it for me. Lately, I've gotten really into dance,
which I love. It's the more I do it, the
more any self consciousness disappears, the better I feel, the
(24:01):
better my life is, the better I can handle things.
It's really remarkable knowing what I know about play. I've
kind of been a little bit more of a student
of this, but I can tell you it's you know,
the things that you say about play and creating resilience, adaptability,
you know, reducing your stress have absolutely been true for
me with my dance.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Love that Maya, Oh, you've talked about yours. You're I
feel like your door right in the boxing ring, Mayor.
Speaker 8 (24:30):
I'm definitely a competitor too, But again, like that was
that was that came out a lot more in my
gymnastics career, and now I would say I'm more like
the Kinnessee explorer than the Kinnessee competitor. But yeah, I'm
pretty I got all. I got a lot of that
in there too.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Yeah, amazing. And Doc what does the docs play play personality?
Speaker 4 (24:51):
Well?
Speaker 5 (24:51):
I was just thinking about that and about fifteen minutes
before the podcast started, Cookie, a dog that I share
with a renter, came up to the doorway and gave
me a long, intense cookie look directly into my eyes,
(25:15):
and I thought, well, at this moment, I'm a kind
of a oxytocin laden social dog, human player. So that
there was a sense of freedom and kind of a
sense of a shared moment with that dog, and that's
(25:37):
really a precious part of today for me. It was
just unexpected great. So, as MIAs said, you know, my
longing to get to Wimbledon or play at the US
Open in tennis didn't happen. And the ten years I
(25:59):
spent playing pretty competitive tennis up until my eighties ended
when my partners either died or couldn't play anymore. So
that the storyteller component, which I like to do with,
which is what we're doing now, telling the story of
play itself, is playful for me. So you know, it's
(26:26):
even though I've kind of devised these eight archetypes of
more common clusters of playfulness, they don't They're not scientifically rigid.
And you just exemplified a mix of what I would
say the creator, the kinnisthe and the competitor, which are
(26:47):
part of who I think we're experiencing here today. But
for all of us to find those things that really
engage us, that take us into a state of play.
To me, that's a public health necessity for every one
of us. It's this is not minor advice from you know,
(27:10):
a senile old doctor. This is really really an important
component of our being human.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I one hundred percent agree with that, and I think that,
you know, one of the most important things. Loved this
whole self awareness journey, and it's beautiful. It's so helpful
when we have some guidelines around profiling personality traits and
finding ourselves through those lenses as a starting point. But
(27:43):
the idea I use a system called pH three sixty.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
So I did the studying.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Around that, and that's an epigenetic based personality like personality, body, mind,
spirit kind of you learn a lot about yourself. And
what's beautiful with what you were reminding me of is
there's specific health types we call them who so say
we're talking about working out. What's most important for a
(28:10):
couple of those health types is actually the environment they
work out in. And for two there's one called a connector. Right,
they're people people, and their archetype is a puppy dog
because what's most important for them when it comes to
working out is they want to have fun and being
a team and being a clan and so working out
alone in the gym by themselves is not going to
(28:32):
get results. But being in a fun, playful environment where
where they're making everybody they're just little oxytocin demons. And
it's exactly what you're describing here. And it's really important
to know that about yourself because we spend so much
time comparing to other people. Oh, that person gets results
and I don't. And it's like, might not be that
(28:53):
you're doing the wrong exercise. You might just need a
buddy to make you have some fun while you're doing it.
Speaker 6 (29:00):
Absolutely, And I love your story. You know you're on
story when you start.
Speaker 7 (29:03):
You talked about getting into the boxing ring at twenty nine,
and all this stuff comes up and then you get
better at it and then it becomes really central to
who you are. And one of the great quotes about
play is that it's practiced for life. Yeah, And that
just came to mind when you were telling your story
about that, because again, you kind of play the stuff
(29:24):
out and then when stuff really does hit you in life,
when you do get punched, as you say, roll with
the punches, you can.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
Roll with them.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Yeah. I think these days there seems to be such
an emphasis out there in the echo chamber of resilience
of do the hard thing, do hard things, do hard things,
and have all this ego and bravado around it, but
there's no context. And I've always said, we have to
do hard things, but those hard things have to be
fun to us. Like for me, there was nothing harder
(29:54):
than stepping into the boxing ring to get punched in
the face, to have your body fueled with adrenaline and
Europe and effort and all of the wild thoughts and
narrative that goes on. But for me, that was so
fun and purposeful, so it was worth it. If that
wasn't purposeful for me, it would not be worth it
will be terrifying things. So it's about finding things that
(30:16):
make you nervous that at the end of it you
love it and then you want to go back.
Speaker 8 (30:22):
Absolutely. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I got into mountain
boke greasing after my gymnastics career, and I like two
years and I signed up for one hundred mile mountain
bike grease and so many people were like, that's not
a hard thing, Like that's just crazy, and like for me,
that's to what you're saying like, that's my hard thing,
that's fun, that reminds me that I can do hard
(30:44):
things for me.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
That is way more terrifying than a punch in the face.
I went for one e bike mountain bike ride in
Tazzy with my uncle recently and I was like, this
is so dangerous.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
I am terrified. Give me punch me in the face
any day of the week.
Speaker 9 (31:00):
Yeah, I disagree with that. On the opposite, I disagree.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
Isn't that great with the National Play Institute? What what
are we doing? What do we what or what's the
biggest barrier? What are we what are the pills that
we're teaching or we're achieving? See how I've just made
myself part of the team and this has become a way.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
But what we've been doing here is part.
Speaker 5 (31:28):
Of the essence of the National Institute for Play, which
is to bring the essence of what play is into
more full activity and public consciousness and implement it into
schools and learning and parent parenting where it's across the
board and the let's say the assembly line approach to
(31:51):
education which Henry Ford helped establish, and the feeling of
you've got to get your kid into to Princeton or
Harvard or you know, I don't know where in Australia
the best the same pressure is on, but I'm sure
it's there. But to begin to say, wait a minute,
(32:15):
this is not the essence of life. The essence of
life is to do something for within yourself, which is authentic,
which engages you, which produces a sense of purpose and mastery,
even if it's avoiding getting punched in the face.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
You know, I'm serious.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Yeah, I train a young girl trained it for the
last few years, and she's fourteen when she started with me,
and she's very smart and very academic, and we've had
a lot of conversations and she talks about grades, and
she talks about what she might she might be in
the undertones of what pressure is on young children today.
And there's times that I've just said, all mate, you
(32:59):
could punch people in the face in a gym and
be a personal trainer and probably live your best life.
I was like, I am living my very best life.
I'm having such fun every single day, hanging out with
people I love, doing the thing that lights me up.
Speaker 9 (33:14):
Amazing, that's fantastic.
Speaker 7 (33:17):
I think of, you know, your culture as being way
healthier than ours here in the US, and you know,
you guys uses every rc I knows how to have fun,
and wow, they're in Melbourne with urban surf, and you
know these other new surf parks that are coming up
the break where Mia and I are aspiring surfers and
we could definitely use that.
Speaker 6 (33:38):
But it's funny to hear you say that again, because.
Speaker 7 (33:41):
I maybe my views aren't correct, but I feel like
we're pretty upside down here in the US on a
lot of our priorities. And again, you guys lead the
way it appears. But what do you think about that?
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Well, I just wonder if you also think that we
are all fighting kangaroos on every intersection over here. We
recently saw a video that went viral over here where
there was a big kangaroo in an intersection on a
road and there was a dog barking at it and
they would bouncing around and just all the comments of like,
(34:13):
this is what this is what you know, this is
what everybody else in the world thinks Australia is like
every day.
Speaker 7 (34:19):
No, no, no, I think you guys are just superior.
Speaker 9 (34:22):
That's mainly we do have.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
We do have a very playful cheeky, fun, self deprecating
essence tools.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
So I think, which I love.
Speaker 8 (34:34):
I think that's what we're that's what we're out to
find right at the National super Play. And I think
just to pegback on what my grandpa said about that
is like, yeah, what you said is, you know, it
starts with awareness, like and so that's kind of the
starting point for us as just building that awareness, but
also really trying to make it practical for people, you know,
like helping them understand that play isn't the opposite of work,
(34:57):
it's just like something that can support their work and whatnot.
And so to give them just like within each personality
some like really practical ways to implement it and maybe
even to use it as a competitive advantage in business.
And then also you know, in terms of customer relationships
and like it seems to fit since it's so the
essence of humanity and who we are as humans, it
(35:19):
really fits in every category of life, whether that's relationships
or work or parenting or whatnot, And so figuring out
what those categories are and like how we can kind
of dive into each of them and give sort of
like specific recommendations in each area of life is like,
I think the broad scope of what the work can be.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
What tends to be the biggest barrier that comes up
that you come up against. You like you going and
you're introducing this concept of play. What are the most
common things that seem to get in the way for
people or beliefs?
Speaker 5 (35:54):
Oh, there are a lot of them, But I think
it depends that somewhat on age. I think the for
middle aged people, the feeling that it's frivolous and that
their life has to be devoted to accomplishment, which has
taking out the garbage and paying the mortgage and saving
(36:15):
money and getting your kids into college, so that there
is a sense that the importance of play is diminished
as compared to productivity and outcome.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
And I think that's a.
Speaker 5 (36:29):
Cultural phenomenon that is general and it may not be
as intense in Australia. And there's certainly exceptions here where
you know, nonsense is honored and play is enjoyed, but
you know, in general, the cultural norms are not to honor,
(36:56):
particularly in adulthood playfulness. And then I think the evidence
for kids who are screen either addicted or screen use
is eight.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
Hours a day.
Speaker 5 (37:10):
And you know, I read some things today, just how
much screen use is and how little that interpersonal play,
and the idea that you've got to get involved in
some rough and tumble and risk taking play as a
source of learning how to get along with others and
how to tolerate the differences. And if you don't get
(37:33):
the play, you're going to be anti social or dissocial
or hampered in your personal interpersonal skills. So I think,
you know, we've got a wonderful mandate to bring play
more completely into the world as we know it. And fortunately,
(37:53):
the science about the neuroscience in particular of play is
just really solid. It's wired into the sub cortex of
the brain for where our survival centers are. And the
animal play is pervasive. If you look at the five
hundred million year heritage of an octopus being in the
(38:16):
ocean that.
Speaker 4 (38:17):
Long, and they play and so do you know, so.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
Do the neurove transmitters that are part of the octopus
or a jellyfish existence. So the looking at the evolution
of play behavior, one sees that it has been around
for millions and millions of years. It's fostered survival, belonging, adaptation, etc.
(38:44):
So I can go on and on the storyteller would
take over, so I'll shut out.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
I'd love to hear like just with the other two
just based on I guess generation and ages, if you
find there's different barriers.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
So, Lauren, what do you what do you think?
Speaker 7 (39:02):
You know, I'm in a good spot right now because
my kids are now, you know, in college, out of college,
and I've got more freedom to explore. And I'm old
enough that I just don't I don't care as much,
you know, I'm more willing to do the things that
I want to do and to be myself.
Speaker 6 (39:22):
It's one of the benefits of being over fifty, you know.
I think it's it's a it's unfortunate that it takes
this long.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Funny, she looks good for other fifty yards.
Speaker 6 (39:33):
Oh thank you. So it's a nice zoom lighting here.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
If that is the prescription of play in, let's all
get on it.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
That is a wonder drug. The wonder drug.
Speaker 6 (39:42):
We definitely, I mean it.
Speaker 7 (39:44):
Is it is I think, you know, in the in
the earlier years again, it's that same thing of.
Speaker 6 (39:49):
You got to be productive, you got to do certain things.
Speaker 7 (39:52):
I'm just really fortunate because I had my dad's you know,
teachings and I could follow those and then again kind
of put make those central to raising the kids.
Speaker 6 (40:01):
I actually took a lot of time off of work
to raise the kids.
Speaker 7 (40:04):
I was it was real luxury. I was super privileged
to be able to do that. But and I think
that made it a little bit easier for sure. That
was a pretty obvious and conscious choice to make. Again,
not for everybody, but it worked great for me and
kept kind of that playful spirit alive a little bit more.
Speaker 8 (40:19):
I think, Yeah, so I would say, you know, I'm
in I'm of the screen generation. I'm of the twenty
second you know, attention span generation. And I would say
I write as I've done this work more. One of
the biggest barriers I see is people don't know what
(40:42):
play is. They're like, I'll say, oh, yeah, I work
for the National and super play. What do you mean
by play? Like I play with my dog, Like I
go for a while, like what is what is play?
Speaker 3 (40:52):
You know?
Speaker 9 (40:52):
Like what do you mean?
Speaker 8 (40:53):
Like they're almost like you that exists, like you can
work about play like so I think, like I just
run into the barrier of like trying to like it
takes me more than like three words to explain to
people what I'm doing. So that's kind of hard sometimes.
But then I think the biggest barrier that I see,
like more consistently and just that is actually a problem
(41:15):
to the actual play work is just the screens. The
way that like social media in particular has just like
ingrained and woven itself into the fabric of our society,
and it is such an easy alternative to play because
instead of socializing with somebody, instead of having a playful
moment in the elevator with somebody, we resort to our screens,
(41:38):
and so we just lose these moments that we don't
even know we're losing because of our devices. And then
when you don't play, you forget how to play, and
you have to like reintegrate it back into your life,
you know. Like so I think we're just slowly like
starting to lose that with our devices, and so I
think just like trying to pull people out once they're in,
(41:59):
you know, like media is a dopamine hit. It's not played, like,
it doesn't have lasting benefits, it has lasting detriments. So
it's like there's a clear cut line from like, yeah,
some video games might be able to be playful but
like a lot of what we do on our devices
is just simply not play for anyone at any point.
Speaker 9 (42:15):
But it's easy and.
Speaker 8 (42:17):
It's right there, and it's like a lot easier than
trying to, like, you know, be social and do these
things that we've become uncomfortable with. So anyway, I think
that's the biggest barrier for my generation.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Yeah, that's such a.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
I was thinking before. I think you mentioned it because
I wrote it down. Someone mentioned loneliness or disconnection, like
the idea of that loneliness epidemic that's going on, of
that we're living this life of real independence and disconnection now,
like we're more crowded than ever in places, but the
more crowded we are, like cities, the more disconnected and
(42:53):
isolated we tend to be living. And then I think
the same about creativity. It's like if we it just
went we just incorporated play, all of the things that
solves those two problems is right there. Like what happens
when you just play, well, you're open and you connect
and you have fun and you build relationship and then
(43:15):
there's no loneliness because you're in present in the play.
Same with creativity. I mean I am on one hundred
percent guilty for continually finding myself in a state of
produced produced more and more and more. And I've pulled
up this year more than ever. But it's taken me
years of working seven days a week and just being
on this like, yeah, I do cool stuff, but I
(43:37):
do it to the point where it's just busyness. And
I was like, God, I've lost I'm losing my ability
to create because I'm so busy.
Speaker 4 (43:49):
That's a barrier.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Yeah, fix that. Fix that.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
What are some of the initiatives that you guys have
tried or put out there or or provide for people.
Speaker 4 (44:04):
Oh, there are lots of them.
Speaker 5 (44:06):
I worked for a while with a very innovative man
dealing with corporate innovation, and what we tried to do
for research and development areas of these corporations was provide
the researchers with something entirely different and unique that they'd
(44:30):
never done before. For example, we would craft a piece
of clay into a shape that was a nothing shape,
and they were blindfolded, and you'd hand them this piece
of clay and tell them to create something useful out
of it, and they would laugh and have all kinds
(44:52):
of fun. But then not that that was so significant,
but then when they would deal with corporate issues after
they had gone through this experience, they were much more
fertile with ideas than they had been when they had
hadn't had this unnamed substance in their hands beforehand. And
(45:17):
part of this was because there is such a thing
called hand brain coevolution, where the hand itself is part
of fertilization of the brain, so that when the hand
is grabbing something that's unknown, it tries to make it known.
And that was part of the creative influence that this
(45:41):
very innovative corporate person had thought up and had me
put into action.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
I'll tell you what, My hands have made a thing
or two known over time.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
The boxing ring. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
And I also just recently took up learned teaching myself
off the piano for this exact reason.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
I was like, how can I do.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
Something creative and fun and unme something that's not related
to anything that my cell for my current echo chamber
of friends do. And it's been beautiful. It's been a
beautiful kind of and frustrated. You know how hard the
piano is?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Hey, what was that?
Speaker 4 (46:24):
I said?
Speaker 5 (46:24):
It's a long way to play the piano from getting
punched to the fees.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
It's made me want me to punch. It's made me
want to punch myself in the face. This is so
hard to get, you know, like I'm learning a new language,
which is music. I'm learning this new language that I
don't know how to speak. I'm reading two rows of
that language at the same time, this language I don't
know how to read yet. And then I'm asking two
(46:50):
hands to do two different things at the same time
on a whole bunch of eighty eight keys that all
look the bloody saying that I don't know what they are.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
It is the hardest thing ever, ye know, from my neighbors.
Speaker 7 (47:06):
Maybe it will start to become playful, and you know,
that would be fantastic.
Speaker 6 (47:10):
I don't know, that's probably a pretty tall order.
Speaker 7 (47:13):
But one of the fun things that you get when
you are truly in a state of play, which I
certainly couldn't be learning the piano. I don't think maybe
you'll get there, is that you actually do start to
want to master what you're doing. You know, play leads
to mastery. So again, it's like this, people think, oh,
I'm just playing, It's just frivolous.
Speaker 6 (47:34):
But actually, if you're truly in the state of play,
you're going to want to get better. It just sort
of happens.
Speaker 7 (47:37):
You're going to be engaged, it's going to be a
flow state, You're going to feel good, and you're going
to keep going.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Look, sometimes I'm banging away there and I'm having the
best time, and I sound ridiculous, and I think, oh my,
my neighbors must be so sick of this caper.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
But yeah, no, it's very fun.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
Is there anything that I haven't asked that you guys
want to share about play that I've missed?
Speaker 4 (48:02):
You know?
Speaker 5 (48:03):
One of the things I think that is not known
generally is that there is a consequence for play deprivation.
And being a physician, I have learned that there are
things like scurvy from lack of vitamin C and barry
very lack of vitamin B. There are deficiency diseases, and
(48:26):
from the study of the Murders and certain reviews of
highly deficient play histories, I have this sense that people
who are missing long, severe missing of play are really
suffering from that deficit, and that is not known.
Speaker 4 (48:48):
We don't think of play deficit.
Speaker 5 (48:50):
In that way, So I think there's I would add
that to sort of the comprehensiveness of this very good
interview that you've conducted.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
I love the term play deficit. Anything else from Lauren
and Maya that I've missed.
Speaker 8 (49:09):
I would just hope that this conversation gives you permission
to play and to give others permission to play.
Speaker 7 (49:16):
We'll live right, absolutely, absolutely, That's kind of what we're
here to do, is just get the conversation out there
so people know, hey, this is really good for you.
There's a lot more to it than just like I said,
you know, fun and frivolity. So we really appreciate the interview,
and yeah, it's a delight to talk.
Speaker 5 (49:33):
With you, and I think there is some depth. If
you've got some scholars that are watching, We've reviewed a
bunch of articles and books that can be tediously linked
through the through the website, but if they're curious, they
(49:56):
can find out more, I think, more about the science
of play and be grounded in it, which is of
course also part.
Speaker 4 (50:04):
Of our mission.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
I'm going to have links to your website in the
show notes. Is there anywhere else you want to point
people to or anything you'd like to promote.
Speaker 9 (50:14):
We're also on Instagram.
Speaker 8 (50:15):
There's videos of Doctor Brown dancing on Instagram if you
want to see that.
Speaker 9 (50:20):
We're at Plea Institute. So yeah, I know he looks.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
Let me tell you, I am heading straight there.
Speaker 3 (50:29):
I've just found myself a new Instagram crush, which is
this eccentric bloke somebody pointed out early because his name's
Hugo Hugo Hamlet go check him out. It's it's really eccentric,
quirky bloke and he's got blue, fuzzy hair with a
bold patch on the back of his head. But he
talks about the most deep philosophical stuff about life. And
(50:51):
then sometimes he just has these videos where he's dancing
in the middle of a forest and I'm just addicted
to So I'm like, there's something about this guy that
is so it's like watching a child. I'm like, I
just can't stop watching. I'm not even end up dancing
in a.
Speaker 6 (51:09):
Forest somewhere awesome.
Speaker 7 (51:12):
You know, I think you're going to feel the same
way when you when you look at our Instagram. I mean,
you know we need to we need to help Doctor
Brown's dance and go viral.
Speaker 9 (51:20):
Here I'm heading over there, I'm.
Speaker 5 (51:23):
Not so sure that's a good idea, but I'm.
Speaker 9 (51:27):
Heading over there now.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
Everyone go and check out the Institute to play in
the show notes and thank you guys so much.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
It was such a pleasure to speak to you. Thank you,
she said.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
It's now ever I got fighting in my blood.
Speaker 5 (52:02):
D
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