The Illumination Doesn't Last | Dr. Jodi Richardson - 896

You know when you hit record with a friend and suddenly the conversation cuts straight through the noise? That’s exactly what happened here with Dr. Jodi Richardson. No agenda. No roadmap. Just two curious minds, a million hats, and a whole lot of real-life chit chat.

We talk about the merry-go-round of modern life, what it means to really stop, and why sitting still can sometimes feel harder than the hustle. We unpack the guilt that creeps in when we rest, how to untangle self-worth from productivity, and why fun isn’t a selfish luxury, but a selfless non-negotiable, in fact. 

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TIFFANEE COOK

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Good a team.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
Welcome back to the show. This is Rob with the
Punches podcast and I'm your host TIF Cook. Today we're
speaking to our good friend, doctor Jody Richardson. She's the
host of the Well Hello Anxiety podcast. She's a good
friend of mine now and we had a brilliant chat,
a brilliant chat about all things life and human ing

(00:24):
in the middle of what it is that life is.
So I hope you enjoy it, and if you do,
please let me know. And just a nudge, if you
don't follow the show, could you please go over and
hit follow, maybe drop a five star rating review. All
these things would be amazing for the show and I
would love you very very much.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
Thanks.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Enjoy. Nobody wants to go to court and don't. My
friends are test Art Family Lawyers. Know that they offer
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(01:04):
family violence and intervention orders, property settlements and financial agreements.
Test Art is in your corner, so reach out to
Mark and the team at www dot test Artfamilylawyers dot
com dot Au The Good Doc Jody Richardson, Welcome to

(01:25):
Roll with the Punches. Well, it's good to be with
you too. It's so good to be here back again.
I know. I'm so excited, you know when you just
feel like I get to have a chat with my friend.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
I know, and we were chatting. We were chatting and
we're like, oh, probably should just press record.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, let's just press record and have a chat. And
it's good because I was, I was doing stuff right
before switching on, and I was like, I hope Jody
doesn't think I've got a topic because I don't. I'm
just gonna have a chat because that's what we do.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
It is nothing nicer in life than just being able
to roll with the.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
You know, go with punches, roll with the punches.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yes, that wasn't planned, but just I think I think
it's quite look and we were having a conversation that
I think I think we're not alone in how we're feeling.
And so just literally the stuff we just started talking about.
It's often the way, isn't it. It's like what you
start talking about and when you sort of share how
you're actually going because we will actually tell each other,
we won't just sort of say yeah, great, how are you.

(02:26):
It's often it's often like okay, well it's probably not
just us, so it's nice just to go with the flow.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, And I like that, Like I'm very much like
that in all aspects of my life. I don't I'm
not sure if that's good or bad commercially, but it's like,
even when I'm running my coaching programs, I'm just wrapping
my arms around a bunch of people and going, all right,
we're all in this and let's talk about it. And
like I'm so I feel like I'm a participant in

(02:55):
the middle of it. That just happens to drag in
a few resources and pack them.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
What you just said then like wrap your arms around
a bunch of people. Gosh, that that is so much
more than I'm sure people are expecting when they're working
in a coaching program to feel really supported, really cared for.
And what is really so good about that, Tiff, is
that if they trust you, you know, they trust you,

(03:23):
and everyone's got challenges in their life and so whatever
it is that you're talking about, they feel like that
somebody's got their back. We're going with the boxing. Is
that another boxing, analogy or pun I don't know.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
We're in their corner, the corner Joey people are coming totally, totally.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah. And it's nice not to be too rigid I
think with things, because like I used to be quite
the opposite. I used to be more like, right, this
is what I think, and then now you know, I
guess over time, maturity, getting more of a handle on
my mental health and anxiety, and just being able to
go right, okay. I feel comfortable to be flexible and

(04:08):
to you know, obviously when I'm speaking, you've got sort
of key things you're kind of really talking about. But
sometimes somebody will answer a question and you'll spend time
on something you never plan spending time off. But I
actually think if we can be more flexible, we cope
better with We probably work better, and I think we
cope better when things go wrong as well, because we're

(04:29):
not so rigid in our thinking.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
Well, that's exactly I mean, that's exactly the skill set
that you learn in boxing. You at first you learn
just how to fight and take a punch and keep
throwing them, and then the more skilled you get, it's
about adaptability. It's like, well that round didn't go, well,
what other approaches do I have? Let's park that one
and do something different, so you adapt? Do you do

(04:54):
different things all the time. I feel like if I
think about, you know, programs or workshops or the things
that I talk about and share, I don't like to
think I have answers. I don't want to. And sometimes
it feels like a commercial roadblock for me. Sometimes I think,
am I opposed to actually turning myself into something commercially viable?

(05:19):
But I just don't want to pretend that one thing
is an answer, because I'm just always curious, always evolving,
always experiencing different levels of similar things, and I'm curious
about them. And it gives me an eke to try
and turn that into hey, guys, I've got the answer. Yeah,
I don't know the answers.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
I know, I know what you mean, and but it
speaks to it actually speaks to why you should commercialize
it more because you are not here saying I am
the all knowing one. You're still learning, like we're all
still learning. And you know, I've had lots of people

(06:00):
will say before that you know, you're okay if you're
just a couple of steps ahead. If it's a curriculum,
and you know, maybe maybe that that's okay in the
in the classroom if you know as a teacher, obviously
you know your subject matter. But but what you bring
as a coach are a lot of really good questions
for people, because often people actually have the answers themselves,

(06:22):
don't they We might not like what that answer is,
we might not want to go there, but I think
that that's the that's where a lot of the skill
is sitting in the discomfort of somebody else's discomfort when
they're asked a hard question, and if they want to
be honest, if we want to be honest, I mean,
a gosh, I've been there. I've done so much therapy.

(06:43):
It is hard. And so yeah, I think it's actually
a real credit to you that you're like, well, I
don't I don't have all the answers, I don't know everything,
but this I can bring a huge skill set and
a lot of wisdom to this. And people obviously come
to your tip because they've gotten to know you and

(07:05):
like your style, like your approach, and are inspired by you.
And so yeah, I really, I really love that you've
got your coaching program. I don't know how long you've
been doing it, but on the second round it is
the second round, yes, yeah, yeah, so it's that has flown.
It feels like a moment ago I launched and that
was last year. But yeah, it's interesting. I'd love I.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
Can't wait to be able to reflect back in a
couple of years time and see what I think or
what my philosophies are, or what I've now decided or
learned or unlearned. Yeah, it's bloody interesting. Life, mate, life,

(07:50):
Tell me about your life, your world. What's it like
being what like being doctor Jody Richardson and guiding the
people in and how you do it?

Speaker 1 (08:00):
Oh? Look, this this week is a cracker of a week.
It's so interesting in the world of a professional speaker
because I mean, as you know, you don't work every
day nine to five like somebody might, or eight thirty
to four thirty, or it's so flexible now people are
working all hours, which is awesome. But this week I've
actually I presented yesterday to some year actually was year nine, ten, eleven,

(08:24):
and twelve. I don't normally speak to four year levels
at once. Wow, but I developed I kind of I'm
always every time I speak. It's never the same in
that I'm always evolving and tweaking and maybe changing changing
things as I learn and grow and think about things
differently or find a better and different way of doing it.
But I was anxious yesterday TIF because I was speaking

(08:48):
at my old school where I started my professional career
as a teacher. Yeah, and I'm still really connected it.
It was the Pininicular School, it's now Penicular Grammar, and
I've spoke and there before and I actually I was
inducted into their Hall of Fame, which for my work
in the area of mental health and well being, which

(09:09):
was a real honor. But this time being back in
the hall where you know, we used to have all
our school assemblies, and being the one up the front
with six hundred kids in the room, plus friends of
my daughters who were in the audience, it just felt different.
And I really adapted and evolved my student my present.

(09:31):
When I talked to kids, I want to engage them,
but talk to them about about anxiety, to help them
see it from a really different lens, like a really
different perspective. But I had thirty five minutes, and so
I worked really hard to come up with something that
I felt would really be memorable and really help kind
of embed the learning and give them some skills. And yeah,

(09:56):
so that was that was yesterday, And I got an
email from one of the students today just saying thank you.
And often, because I do talk about my own anxiety people,
it's you know, I'm used to talking about it. It's
my world. But oftentimes people in the audience they've never
heard someone stand up in front of hundreds of people

(10:16):
and say, hey, I take medication because anxiety is a
really big problem for me. And so yeah, this particular
student had sent me a really lovely email and shared
a little bit more about her and how much you
appreciate it. So it just feels good. You know, we
students sometimes you know, the bell goes and they're like, yes,
it's lunchtime, but yeah, the thanks I got on the

(10:40):
way out, and then I'll be getting some feedback. It's yeah,
it just feels good because I was the kid at
school who didn't have a clue. I mean, I had
so much anxiety and I didn't even know what anxiety was.
So yeah, and then later this week, I've got a
webinar I'm delivering on Thursday, and then I've got actually
four presents for a client on Friday, but then the

(11:02):
following week I don't have any presenting, so I'll be
spending all my time podcasting. Yeah, it's always different, which
is I think what I love about it.

Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah, I was talking talking heaps lately about the idea
perspective on how lucky we are, but how no matter
who we are or where we are or what we have,
how challenged we are by the human experience, how challenged
we are by the struggles we have and the poor

(11:37):
me that we feel and the emotions, and there's no
escaping that. And I see it with people that are
flying high, and people see it in people that are
struggling a bit more. But then in reality, we're the
top one percent in the world of income earners for

(12:00):
a start, generally we have had roofs over our head.
And I just see all the different levels of that,
and I'm like, it's so interesting. How do we embed
that way to always see and be grateful and how
do we experience our emotions? But we have to experience

(12:21):
them in a certain way. But yeah, their mind just
gets stories about things.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Oh it really doesn't. One of the things that I
find hard and I wonder if you know people listening
can relate or if you can relate toive. But I
kind of feel like I'm constantly changing hats, like and
I'll never forget. One of my beautiful friends Christy said
to me when I was when I was a new

(12:50):
mum sixteen years ago, nearly seventeen years ago, wowses. She said,
you have to get used to being able to take
one hat off and put off another, even though you
might not want to take the hat you're wearing off.
You might not have finished the task you're doing. You
might be in the middle of something and all of
a sudden, that hat, whether you like it or not,

(13:12):
you got to take it off and put on the
parenting hat. And I feel like I've got so many
damn hats at the moment. Like you know, I was
telling you earlier on the phone today, Yesterday I did
my presentation, felt really good, good feedback, then caught up

(13:33):
with my parents for lunch, which was unplanned, a bit
of stuff going on there, So I caught up with
them for lunch, and then just as we were leaving,
like I felt like I've done I'm doing my exercise,
like I'm good presentation you know, just sort of feeling like, oh,
my duck's are feeling like they're in the same pond,
and lovely lunch. Good to see mom and Dad. Felt

(13:55):
like I'd ticked the kind of you know, dutiful daughter
thing off, even though I adore them, know. But and
then as we were leaving, there was a road rage incident.
As we were crossing the road because we're very slow.
Dad's very very slow, and we really had all the
space and time we needed, except this driver decided to

(14:15):
make a beeline for us and accelerate and then abuse
us for taking so long to cross the road, and
then unfortunately Dad fell and so just in an instant,
you you know, just and that's kind of the way.

(14:36):
Like obviously it was shocking, it was upsetting. People came
flocking so this one, you know what, Like I try
not to swear too much, you know, I mean I
do occasionally, but I've said some fairly unpleasant things about
this person. But just that rage in this person. He
said to my dad, I hope you get run over

(14:56):
when he left, you know, when he took off in
his car. And he's obviously got a lot of problems,
that fella. But just the way, like the day can
just turn. And I think that one of the things
that I sort of practice personally and share in my
work is really at the heart of it is psychological flexibility.

(15:20):
Coming back to what we were saying earlier, and that
part of it is acceptance. And I used to misunderstand
acceptance and forgiveness. I used to think forgiveness meant what
the person did was okay, and that you're kind of saying, oh,
that wasn't such a big deal, whereas it's actually me

(15:41):
letting go of the hurt. By forgiving the person does
not mean you're condoning it. Might never want to see
them again. I don't accept what you did. I don't
like what you did. I don't condone it. I never
want to happen to happen again. I might never want
to see you again, or maybe I will, But I
forgive you is about me and letting go so that

(16:03):
I'm not carrying that hurt and that heartbreak. I can
let go of it, put a line under it. And
acceptance is kind of it is what it is. I
don't have to like it. And one of the things
about developing psychological flexibility, which I've worked on a lot
with my own through doing that the training and then

(16:24):
applying it to yourself myself and teaching it in my work,
and just because when we hold onto things that have
happened that are really painful and hurtful, and it's not
easy to let go. I'm not saying for a minute,
you know, like I know you've experienced a huge amount
of trauma that's sort of different but incidental day to

(16:44):
day stuff and also big stuff like yesterday. Well, I
can't change what happened, but what I can do is
I mean, it's certainly it sent me into fight or
flight in the most instinctive way. And this fella yelled,
and I tell you what I yelled back. The worst
insult he threw at me was his stupid deal And

(17:06):
I thought, you know, that wasn't very cutting, that wasn't
too cutting. So you know, he was obviously not one
to sort of use a lot of swear words, but
he was ageful. So my whole nervous system was like
and then Dad foul face first onto the road. All
the traffic had to stop. He's bleeding. We can't get

(17:28):
him up because he's incapable of getting himself up without
lots of support. People came flocking. I could have just cried.
I could have just balled my eyes out, but I'm like, okay,
regulate now, it's not the time. Cry later. You know,
Mum's there and everyone's helping, and we saw it all out.
And then I had a cry to Pete on the

(17:48):
way home from you know, to pick up the kids.
And I think, with the way life is, if we
can develop this acceptance the we're not really meant to
be happy all the time.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
We are.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
We are human, we are fallible, we have hearts that break,
we have bodies that hurt, we have challenges with family
and friends, and that it's like a big ride, and
it's like a roller coaster. Sometimes you're going up and
sometimes you're coming down, and sometimes you're gliding a little bit.
Gliding's good, but it's not the norm. Gliding is not

(18:31):
the norm. And I'm trying to be more accepting of
all the kind of the hats that I have to
wear and letting one hat go in, putting the other
on when I need to, and trying to do what's
most important right now. But you know, you still can't help.
But think of all the things you haven't done things

(18:52):
that are undone that you have to kind of get
back to. But I think the more we can become
accepting of that, I personally have found the more I'm
accepting that that it's just kind of the way life
is as an adult, the easier I found it.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
I love that I've been. I've had a little personal
mantra to myself lately of be where you are, because
I'm so guilty of rushing and striving, and like rushing
and striving and rushing and striving and the next thing
and the next thing, and if we get here, we've
got to get further. And it's like, just just be

(19:27):
where you are, because for a start, once upon a time,
where you are right now was some pipe dream. Like
it was a pipe, it was a dream, it was
on your vision board. It was something you went, Wow,
wouldn't that be amazing? And now you're here, you think
it's garbage and you think you've got to hurry up
and get somewhere better. And so I'll say it to
myself sometimes out loud, be where you are, be doing

(19:52):
this right now, Be shit at it, yes, you know,
like just be at it and sit at this piano
and tink away and be what you are and where
you are right now.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
T if it is such, it is so important for
us all because you know that my friend once told
me of this watch that said it didn't have the time.
She said, now, what's the time? Now? What's the time? Now?
I love that. It's so good, isn't it? And yes,
and we we do, we do know like the time

(20:29):
traveling that that our minds do is ever present. We're
either reflecting on like I keep going back to that
vision of what happened yesterday and that experience, and then
I'm I'm I've got Dusty asleep beside me, and he's
got all sorts of issues going on. He needs ear
drops and medication and like for three weeks and I'm thinking,

(20:52):
I've got to do his ear drops. He's not going
to like it. I've got to tie off those of
he said. And when we go backward or forwards, we
are so less, so much less happy than when we are.
Our attention is on what we're doing, like what you
were saying, And sometimes it's an uncomfortable place because there's uncertainty.

(21:20):
And I've got to sign up on my wall here
it says you get better at what you practice, and
everything is practice. I read that somewhere and I'm like, after,
write that down and stick it on my wall, because
we sort of look to the future when we are
proficient at something, or we achieve a certain professional goal
or personal goal or milestone or income or particular job

(21:44):
with a particular client or a particular podcast guest. And
yet the minute that happens, we're looking. We move the
goalposts and the mind. And yet we're so caught up
in the spinning, you know, the world spinning. That taking

(22:06):
time to practice, putting our attention on one thing in
the moment and training our attention that way feels like
I don't have time for that. I've got too much
to do. So it's easy to see how we get here.
Yet we're probably the envy of so many. I mean,
we are the envy the life we live here, you know.

(22:27):
And I sometimes say to the kids, I don't know
if I've said it to you before, Tiff, but like,
we have a modest home. We live in a really
nice neighborhood.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
You know.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
We have one four of us, Peter and me and
a sixteen and a fourteen year old with one toilet
in one bathroom, right, and we've been getting quotes for
an extension and all that just to put on an
on suite, just to get another woman toilet, and you know,
there's paining to be done and things. But I say
to the kids, we are rich beyond measure. We are

(22:59):
rich beyond me compared to most people. We've got safety,
roof over our heads, food on the table, access to resources,
access to education, access to medicine, and what we have
is enough. It really is enough. We don't need anymore.

(23:21):
So we need to get clear about why we're doing
what we're doing. And I'm doing it just like you are.
Most of us are this toxic striving. I heard on
a podcast as an expression today like that. But I
do think what you were saying about gratitude, tell me

(23:42):
more about how you've been feeling about gratitude, because I think,
I mean, that's definitely part of the answer. I'm sure
of it.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, I think, like if just the idea that if
I don't feel grateful, intrinsically grateful for what I have now,
I'll never ever feel grateful. I'll never feel happy with
what I have because I have so much. Like I said,
I was training my friend of mine this morning, and
I said, I, as we're having this conversation, that's what

(24:14):
I do. I'd like to have the same conversation with
a million people and get their thoughts like it, you know,
like I have a roof over my head and I
don't struggle to pay the rent, and I get to
have two pets, and if something happens, I can pay
the vet bill, and I can put fuel in my car.

(24:35):
And if I want to go out, if someone invited
me for a dinner this week and expensive dinner, I
could say yes, I'd no doubt tell it, potentially tell
a story or have a port. I can't afford that story, definitely,
But and that story for me, there's something underlying that

(24:57):
that insecurity, that fear of loss, that fear of not
being okay. I think it's tied in with abandonment, It's
tied in with manipulation from people. It's tied in with
experiences that have happened, and this hyper independence that I
have become, which is cool. But you know the first

(25:17):
thing I said to you when we hopped on the
call before before we hit record, I was like, ah,
just sometimes world feels like a merry go round and
you just want to just want it to stop for
a second so you can sit still, But it doesn't stop.
It's like the ride that doesn't stop. And that's sometimes,
you know, that's what the focus is on, rather than hey,

(25:40):
you get to do anything, like yeah, imagine me and
I want to pause, not even imagine, like we can.
What a ridiculous thing to say, That's what I mean.
It's like, which, if you can pause, all of the
things that happen in your life are your choice, yes,
which I believe some people. I believe that's true of

(26:00):
everyone and everything. Everything is a choice. Some choices aren't
easy to make. But we have priorities, whether we and
if we can see that and admit that, so I go, well,
yeah I could. I could probably go and go on
a big six month trip around the world right now.
But my choice is stability. My choice is to know

(26:23):
that for the foreseeable future, I have security and financial
means and food on the table, and if I did so,
it's a choice. Yeah, it's not I can't afford or
I can't do that, but I it's when my language
gets in the way. That was a big rant that
probably wasn't even on gratitude, Like you asked.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
Oh, it doesn't it doesn't matter. But I think, I
think what you've arrived at. I remember my psychologist, I
remember when I was Teaching's funny you know that. I
was just back at Peninsula Grammy yesterday. Oh my goodness.
I saw so many former students who are working there.
It was delightful. Honestly, it was just they've got their
own families now. Anyway, another tangent, But I remember when

(27:02):
I was teaching, and I essentially, if your listeners aren't
familiar kind of with my mental health journey, essentially I
can trace my anxiety back to starting at about the
age of four in prep, and by the time I
was twenty five, my nervous system was just like, ah, sorry,
I can't do this anymore. And I ended up with
major depressive disorder out so total shut down nervous system

(27:26):
and clawed my way back out of that with a
lot of help, friends, family, therapy, medication, and lots of
cuddles with my pets and lots of tears. And when
I was sort of coming sort of through my depression,
I was back at school, I was back teaching, and

(27:47):
I was like, ah, this isn't enough for me, This
is not I see the world so differently now. I'd
had a tutor read CUPAI, you know, shiny reds sports car,
and I thought that was like the you know, happiness
on wheels kind of thing. And all of a sudden,
I'm like, I don't care about the car. I don't
care about clothes, I don't care about stuff. I just

(28:11):
I just care that I have my mental health back.
And I just started to see the world so differently,
and I started to think, well, if clearly I had
all the boxes ticked, great job, still living at home,
so you know, that was something that I was. I
eventually obviously moved out. But when you sort of think

(28:31):
of the measures of success, good education roof over my head,
good job, disposal of income, you know, I had a
shiny red car and a partner and all of the
sort of things that i'd aspired to, good health and
good friends, good physical health. And if I have all
of these boxes ticked and can end up feeling so hopeless,

(28:53):
I do not care if I wake up, I do
not care. Please just don't let me wake up, because
it is I feel so hopeless and so miserable. There
is just darkness. I started to sort of think, well,
how if I've got all of this going on and
I still feel like that, then this doesn't really mean

(29:14):
as much or matter as much as I thought it did.
And I think we do. We think the measure of
success ticking those kinds of boxes. And of course, you know,
it feels good to achieve things. It's very much a
contributed to our well being, but it's not everything. And
having stuff we know just leads to wanting more stuff
because we get adapted to it. And I remember sort

(29:37):
of that was kind of my that was kind of
what led me to go, well, I study the happiness
of Science of Happiness, and I went and worked for
Beyond Blue. But at the time I was at school teaching,
and I was just feeling like, having all these feels
and all these thoughts, and I was finding it really
hard to show up every day. And my psychologist he
said to me, could you resign tomorrow, maybe finish the

(30:04):
term a few weeks out, finish term three or whatever,
And still managed to actually, at this stage I think
Pete and I were here here, still managed to pay
the mortgage. Sorry, the timeline's so blurry because it was
all a blur, but anyway, could still could you still survive? Basically,
could you resign tomorrow? Would you survive? And I said,

(30:27):
actually yes, and he said, so you could quit and
I said yes. And he said do you want to
quit tomorrow? And I said no, And he's like why not?
And I'm like, well, because I'm not sure where I'm going,
and so I think it's good and so he said,
So what I really want you to remember is you
have a choice here, So he said, going to work

(30:49):
every day, showing up, doing what you're doing is a choice,
he said, And you can make a different choice if
you want to, but right now you are making a
choice to do this. And it so where you arrived
at with that was like that was where I was,
you know, coached through my therapy to come to and
it was so powerful because I think when we feel

(31:10):
backed into a corner and we feel like we don't
have an option, yes, it can be really hard. And
like you said earlier too, sometimes the choices are really
really hard, like feeling possibly hard. You know, we know
it's not always simple, but yeah, it's a really nice

(31:31):
way to start looking at things. What choices do I
actually have here? Am I as beholden to my circumstances
as I think I am? Possibly not?

Speaker 2 (31:41):
Yeah, I shared this on my story last night. Was
a quote that I came across and I loved it,
and it says, the worst place isn't the worst place
to be isn't rock bottom. It's one step before it
where things are not great but not bad enough to change.
That's the trap, and that's where most people stay. And oh, like,
I goosebumps every time I read that, And that is

(32:04):
exactly you know, when I talk about that time the
pandemic where I felt entirely backed in or corner and went, Okay,
I'm just gonna I'm just gonna accept and plan that
I am going to be bankrupt and will lose everything.
And that's because then I'll just call that. I'll just
adapt to that. Now then there's no uncertainty. And if

(32:25):
that happens, then I'm already ready for it. So and
I just I really thrive from a place of put
me in the corner. I don't know if something switches on.
I'm a fighter like that. It's like to give me
rock bottom and I will make fucking I'll weave gold.
But it was as I emerged from that and didn't

(32:46):
didn't hit rock bottom bankruptcy it you know, then you
have choices, then you have decisions. Then you have this
tiny little bit of something that you might lose. And
we're driven by loss more than we're driven by you know,
moving gain what at times?

Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (33:04):
Gain? And it's it's so interesting, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (33:08):
It is. I do recall reading something or learning somewhere
that we're more loss averse than we are gain oriented.
We'd rather yeah, we'd rather avoid losing something. We'd much
rather avoid that than look to gain something. I'm not
probably explaining that very well, but we are more loss
of verse. Yes, Okay, I'll let that go because I

(33:33):
can't quite think of the exact phrase.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
But I love it because I'm always terrible at wording things.
I can have with you saying something, I'm like, I
can't get this right. So this makes me feel good.
I feel like outdated.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
I did learn that I'm sort of I feel like
I'm through the perimenopause journey now. My doctor tells me
I'm completely on the other side of it. But I
was so relieved when a guest of mine on my
podcast talking about it she said that losing your words
is a symptom of perimids. Pause, and I'm like, oh
my gosh, thank you, because I was really starting to

(34:04):
worry about my brain. So yeah, like literally going, I know,
I know the word for this.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
But.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
It's completely eluding me. So yeah, it's anyway, that's okay,
we can find other words.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
When last night in my in my coaching session, I
talked about one of my favorite topics, and that was fun.
Do you do you plan fun in your life? How
much fun do you have for you, not for your
not like I'll do this for the kids, Like how
much does hey, Jody's going to go have some fun.

(34:41):
How much does that come into your planning?

Speaker 1 (34:43):
And oh, not enough? Now that you've asked me the question,
Now pickleball comes to mind as a family before we
went and played pickleball, but you said not about the family,
but more about me.

Speaker 2 (34:59):
For you too. But I guess it comes down to,
yeah that your intent, like are you doing that for
you or are you doing that for everyone else?

Speaker 1 (35:08):
And yeah, really not enough, come to think of it.
One of the things I don't know if I would
have sort of said it was fun, but one of
the things I love to do on a hot day
is just getting the water. Yeah, And so oh, stand
up paddle boarding like is something that I love. That's
a lot of fun. I really enjoy that. I'm building

(35:31):
my balance as I mean, I'm a very good sit
down and I've got a balance. Maybe maybe it's not
as good as I thought it.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
Was, but they're just rowing. If you're sitting down on
the paddle board. Is that a different thing? Oh my gosh,
probably probably, But that is a lot of fun for
me and.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
Macro and I we were, oh my gosh, we the
last time I remember laughing until my face hurt. We
were out off Davy's Bay down here, and we were
on the paddle board together and then we started doing
like back dives off off the pedal board. So like
it's so unstable as you can well imagine on the border.

(36:19):
So one of us would sort of straddle it and
sit at one end, and then the other would sort
of climb on and do some back diving, and we
fell and you know, just like just hit the water
so many times in so many ridiculous ways. But every
now and again we'd land, you know, we'd get our
hands to hit the water first, Yeah, so now that

(36:41):
you've asked me that question, this probably it's probably something
else that I need more of. And I love that
it's part of your program because yeah, well we're always
like talking about regulating emotions, coming down anxiety, reducing stress,
reducing burnout. Like, but hey, where's the great stuff, where's
all the positive emotions that make such a difference to

(37:03):
how we enjoy our days and our life.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
Well, yeah, and like, what is the point? What's the
point of it all? What is the point if we're
not having fun at the same time that the whole problem?
What was interesting, Like because I did it the same
I had a week on that in the last program,
but this time I went I really I don't know
if it was just a switch in my brain, but
just the idea. I went in and looked at all

(37:26):
of the science around happiness and fun and what it
does for us. Right, it's literally the antidote to all
our fucking problems. So it releases dopamine, it releases oxytocin,
it releases all the good stuff into our system. Two
weeks before, we talked about some of the social and

(37:47):
environmental influences. We talked about social contagion, right, so when
you walk into a room or emotional contagion is I
think it's the term, sorry, emotional contagions. So I'm like,
to not have fun, to not focus on you having
fun in your life is probably not. Probably is definitely

(38:10):
one of the most fucking selfish things you can do,
because you don't get all of that amazing biochemistry and
then you walk into a room with your shit cocktail
concoction of fucking stress and anxiety that could be riddled
with oxytocin and serotonin and dopamine, and you're just not

(38:30):
your best self. Yeah, but we're so it's funny. We
feel guilty when we have fun. We feel guilty. We
put boundaries around it. I can do that. If I
can't do that, I've done too much this week, Like
I've got all these rules as well. I'm like, yeah,
twitch off. I think that's why I end up in
such a profound place when I go when I went

(38:51):
to the Himalayas, or when I go away and there's
no boundaries or familiarity. It's like this the point is
just fun now.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
I think it's because I think we can easily get
sort of bogged down in the busyness of life and
forget to kind of look up and go, why are
we doing all of this? Yeah, like the whole point
of work is to live, not the other way around.
And yeah, and it's you know, especially with AI, like

(39:21):
it's such a it's such a time saver, like the
things I'm getting through, but the thing is, and it
creates more time for me just do other things.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
And so you know, with the age of you know,
information technology and all of our I'm older than you, Tiff,
I've seen a lot of I mean, I was talking
to Mac the other day about how we used a
mailways in the car to get around and yeah, our
eyes were like what.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
I think of that sometimes? And like I remember those days.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
Oh my gosh. Interesting the spatial navigation parts of our
brains and not developing why they are growing the way
they once were because we just rely on our sat
nav and younger people tend not to have those instinctive
kind of orientation skills about which ways which and how

(40:14):
do I get from here to there? Yeah, anyway, I digress. Yes,
with all of that, you know the age of computers
and everything was all about oh, such timesaver, such timesaver.
But it's just ended up all of us, not all
of us, no generalizations here, but a lot of us
have ended up just well fitting more into the time

(40:37):
we've got it, as if as if somehow we're not enough,
if we're not being productive or busy. Yeah, and I
think it's really good these conversation Like this is such
a good conversation for me because like fun is awesome,
and there's so like it doesn't even have to cost money,
Like there's so much that you can do to have

(40:57):
a good time, and it doesn't have to be for
our it doesn't have to be involve a lot of travel.
It can literally be being really silly at home and
you know, playing some games at home, doing some you know,
planning a praying call, lots of stuff, Like there's so
much you can do. So yeah, thank you for asking me.
Sorry I didn't have I mean, I'm sorry for myself

(41:20):
that I didn't have a better answer for you.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Well, it's just even just the idea of novelty as well,
like doing something novel, because even once fun becomes a routine,
the fun thing can There was a study that I
was listening to a podcast or what might have been
actually want have been listening to my own I did
two podcasts with Mike Rucker, and he wrote The fun Habit,

(41:46):
and so he studied funnies an academic and that he
references a research paper where they had two groups of people,
I can't remember if they were kids or not irrelevant,
but two groups of people and they were drawing, and
then half of them they incentivized financially to draw, and
the other ones they didn't. And the ones who were

(42:06):
incentivized lost the intrinsic motivation to draw. So that's one
that's one of the reasons when I chose piano was
a new hobby. I was like, find something that's really different,
find something that's not fitness tip, find something that doesn't
feel familiar to your circle of friends, and find something

(42:28):
that can't become some sort of commercial part of your identity.
I commercialized so much. It's like, oh, I love boxing,
I'll be do boxing coaching.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
And I was like, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
And I know when I was sketching a few years ago,
and I loved that was so good, real quick. But
then every a few times I'd put things up and
people would ask if I would do a commission for them,
and I immediately was like, eh, no, I don't want
I don't want to because this is this is for me.

(43:00):
And then then it becomes a thing that I couldn't
put I can't even net right now put words to
the feeling that that gave me. But I was like,
I don't want to do that. You can't It feels
like you're trying to take something away from me. Yeah
for that.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yes, it's this idea of doing something just for the
sake of doing it. Yeah, just for the sake of
doing it. And you reminded me that I have been
learning piano. And then there was a problem with my
Simply Piano subscription and I had to upgrade. But I honestly,

(43:35):
I was a bit miffed at the cost, Like truly
it was like going to be forty bucks a month.
And then I was like, I don't know how committed
are we, my daughter and me and you know, with
all of the other subscriptions. And I ended up writing
to them because I saw a different price online and
they were really nice actually and said we'll give you
a discount, so FYI, people's doesn't hurt to sort of

(43:58):
reach out anyway. So I had to wait to the
other subscription ran out, so I have had a couple
of weeks off or probably three weeks off not playing
because I had to wait for that to happen, I
think on the fourteenth of March. But I'd let go
of that because I was in this holding phase. But
that I've been really enjoying and it's just so good

(44:21):
for our brains. But this idea I think of just
doing something for the sake of it. Like our daughter,
she does the most magnificent henna designs. She's so talented.
She'll do them like up the arm and up. They're
just absolutely stunning. Whenever she's done it on me, people
have commented, have you been to a wedding? You know,

(44:43):
have you been to an Indian wedding or something. I'm like, no, no,
and even me like look at me. I'm sort of
like you could actually set up a little store at
the market and people would pay you to do that.
She absolutely no, I just like doing it and like, actually, yes,
stop it, Jody.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
Stopped turning a child into an entrepreneur.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
But it is something just for the sake of doing it,
just for the pure And you know, when I was
I was at the library earlier doing some work at
the library, and there was a community puzzle. Just as
I was leaving, I saw this community puzzle and I
was heading out and I had to I had to go.
I didn't have time to even find and do one

(45:27):
puzzle piece. But the idea of that really lit me up.
And you know, sometimes it can be just doing something
like that, just you know.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
Talking to a friend of mine and she's just taken
two months, two months long service leave. She loves her job,
she's got a great job, but she's taken sin she's
just about to turn sixty. You're about to celebrate her sixtieth,
so she taking two months off. And we were having
breakfast the other day and she was talking about, you know,
will I I don't know if I want to go

(45:55):
back to that job, like it's changed, and it doesn't
light me up in the same way. Actually, like maybe
maybe it's time I'm thinking about retirement, like maybe by
the end of this break and just talk about different
things she could do and was talking about I want
maybe I'll do volunteer work, and we just kind of
happened upon the idea of also, don't commit to that

(46:17):
straight away, like don't go out of a job where
you're committed to work for something that now you've lost
the shine for that you loved before, but you've lost
the shine because of these boundaries around it to going
straight in to find a voluntary like do some spot
volunteering here and there, but don't commit to anything yet
and just find yourself see where you land. We get

(46:39):
we're in such a hurry always to put ourselves somewhere else,
don't we?

Speaker 1 (46:46):
Just don't we? Just that was that was such good advice.
I'm sure she'll really appreciate that. And and it's easy
to sort of think that's that's the answer, but sometimes
just a jolly good rest and time and space to
kind of think, all right, what's next? Yeah, I think

(47:08):
I think retirement is one of those things that a
lot of people are sort of really looking forward to
and caut But Pete and I talk about it because
he's in a typical kind of nine to five job
in a leadership role, and I have a very different
kind of working lifestyle, and you know, we if we

(47:29):
sort of talk about, you know, what his planning is.
I sort of one of the first questions that I'll
ask is, what are you planning to do? We can
deal with the we time, I know, right, And I
think because I worry that, I sort of think, what
if you don't have any purpose? And he's just like, well,

(47:51):
I'll just do some more stuff around here. I'd spend
some his mum has dementia, she needs extra time. He'd
do some more you know, running around to kids and
all that kind of thing. And he's mainly I realize
I'm kind of like, well, you've got to be doing something.
But that's that's me, Like, that's that's the way I operate,

(48:12):
Whereas I think he you know, it's not happening in
the near future, but yeah, it's about striking a balance.
I think you don't want to end up in retirement
and then just busying yourself, you know, you want to
think clearly about what are the things I want to do,
how do I want to spend the time, and how
can I be still? How can I be more still

(48:32):
as well and just enjoy what I've got, what I've
worked for, and what I've got around me.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
Gosh, I'm more confused than we started. I'm so much
like you though. I think, well, retireler, because you might
head of ever retiring. But that's about entrepreneurs like, well,
work will expand or contract just to whatever I've feel
like doing. But retirement that's not evely gonna be a

(49:02):
thing for me. It'll just be nice to have as
the years go by, to have the more flexibility to
really pick and choose and get off the get off
the train tracks. That's another thing that you know, as
well as the dizzy wizzy analogy we used before, the
idea that quite often when I feel like I can't

(49:25):
get off, I always say it feels like I'm running
on running on train tracks, you know, two strides ahead
of a train, and I can't stop because the train
will so and that's sometimes, you know, when you're just
in business and work, it's like I don't have time
to just think because I can't I've got to keep running.
And it's like, actually, tip, you could just take two

(49:47):
steps to the left and you'll be off the track
and the train will go and you'll be fine. And
then you'll think about what do you want to do,
And I'm like, I can't get off the tracks, like
no one's holding you there, No, you're not the train,
You're just running on the track.

Speaker 1 (49:59):
And and in fact, there actually is no train.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
There is no train. The train is a figment of
your imagination.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
It is, but I so relate and it's such a
I love the way that you have shared. I love
how you've expressed that kind of what that feeling is like.
It's like, well, what am I running from? What am
I running too? Will I able to get there? Is

(50:28):
there actually a destination? Probably not. Sometimes it's frightening to
sit still and be with what's happening and thoughts and
feelings that might come up, and that can be so painful,
and it can be quite distressing, and so sometimes just

(50:48):
keep it on going. Is do you have a time
and a space in your life where you can pay
attention to what your feeling and what you need? Do
you ever stop?

Speaker 2 (51:00):
I've been, you know what, three four weeks agoing now
three weeks I don't know. When I got back from
Tazzy the gym shutdown. I got the note that the
gym had shut down just for a short period of time,
but quite quickly need to do some remedial works on
the building. And what that afforded me, which was brilliant,

(51:21):
was the opportunity to go, you know what, I'm I'm
going to train people at different locations. And then I went,
I'm not I'm going to have a day off now.
I'm not going to go back on Saturdays. And I
have worked seven days a week for as many years
as I can remember, I've worked seven days like, yeah,

(51:42):
unless clients have been called in sick. Yeah. And so
now my Saturdays are a day. So I have a
client free Thursday, which is now my business. And actually
I've signed up to a new course around around speaking,
so getting better at my speaking. So I made a

(52:02):
sizeable investment in myself there, which happened to fall on
the day that I had already decided was going to
be my day to work on that part of my business.
So this time blocking time management. So saturdays of mine
they're free. That's brand new. It's really beautiful, and it's
a real transition period right of you. When you talked

(52:23):
about the hats before, I felt that to my core.
I was like, that's what I feel like is I'm
a grown up now and now I've made these decisions
that we do this here and do that there, which
is nice because on three mornings a week, only three
mornings a week now I have clients and so they're
just I block that day and go that's training clients

(52:43):
and maybe some podcasts in the afternoon, but that's it.
Whereas before every day was everything, and there was all
of the thoughts and planning and things. You know, the train,
the train was going. So yeah, it's a nice place
to be, but it is a transition period because my
mind wants to go back to that habit of right right,
and it's like, no, just do you just let go

(53:04):
of half of the thoughts that you're trying to think
right now and just be where you are.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
One of the It's so it sounds so simple, but
it's really very hard, isn't it. And the thoughts, you know,
they just keep coming. And there's a great metaphor of
the freeway. You could sort of sit on the side
of the freeway and watch all the cars go by,

(53:33):
and that's kind of your mindfulness. You're just watching what's happening.
But every and again, you know, we hop in a
car and we go a klummeter down the road and
we realized, oh, I've gone with that thought. You know,
I've been swept away by that thought. I've been you know,
rather than just observing, I'm having the thought that we
sort of, you know, watching the traffic. We hop in

(53:55):
a car and we go down. Then we realize, oh
oh hang on, hop out, come back. Yes, But it's
the more we practice being in the moment and having
our attention, you know, putting ahead where your hands are,
so to speak, the less easily we're drawn and sucked

(54:18):
into those vehicles to be taken away from the present moments,
Like when you're reading a book, you're reading, reading, reading,
and then you're like, I have not taken in a word.
I've said a word I've read, And then you're like,
all right, okay, I was obviously daydreaming thinking about something
like let that go on. Hook from that thought, come
back to what it was I was doing, and be

(54:39):
present in that moment again. The more we can practice that,
and I think anyone listening and it's a good reminder
for me. And I actually did a breath work course.
I started a breath with breath work course on the
weekend because I just wanted to expand my meditation practice
and it was so the wrong fit for me. It

(55:02):
was just I did not enjoy it. I didn't complete
the course because I, once upon a time would have
just been the good girl who just does what she
said she was going to do. And I won't even
finish a book now if I don't like it, because
I just think, what a waste of time. So I
did the first evening of the course and then skipped
the next two sessions and just wrote to the instructor

(55:22):
and said, thank you so much. It's not quite a
good fit for me. Won't be returning, and feel really
good about that decision. But I think for all of us,
if we can find moments in our day where we
can use our senses to be more present, the more
we can do that, the more we'll want to do

(55:46):
it because we know how grounding and calming and how
lovely it is in the now. But also the easier
it is to let go when we do notice we're
being really hooked by something. To go, I'm having a thought,
having a thought that I should be doing this. Is
it helpful?

Speaker 2 (56:02):
No?

Speaker 1 (56:03):
And then come back. So washing the dishes, you know,
warm soapy water, like the temperature or the cold temperature
of hanging out the washing or walking outside to go
and play ball with your dog, feeling the sun like
using our senses can be a really nice way for
us to be having those peppering our day with those

(56:24):
mindful moments and just having that a little bit of
appreciation in that moment, and then building on that because
because this is the only time we have is really now,
nothing else is guaranteed. Yeah, the past is gone, the
future hasn't come in this moment. If we can't learn
to be happy in the moment, we or at least

(56:50):
content and accepting we're not going to be happy all
the time, but that our life is lived in these
everyday moments. It's not lived in the future accomplishment or
achievement or a finish line. It's here and now, me
talking to you, when we say goodbye, whatever I'm doing next.
It's those moments that make up a life. And if

(57:12):
we're never a present in that moment, we're missing out
on so much. It's really really important. It's really important.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
We tend to live under the guys that life is,
that life's going to get better, that we've just got
to get to it and it'll be better. But circumstantially,
chances are this is this could be the best these
this set of circumstances right now for me might be

(57:43):
the pinnacle I could be at it and if I'm
not appreciating it. We all felt that in COVID when
we were locked up in our houses. We're like, shit,
I just want to go outside. Yeah, yeah, I want
to see my friends. I'd give anything to do this.
I'd give anything to do that. You reminded me of
a decade ago when I would go home to Tazzy

(58:03):
for a break. Mum would always say to all you
do is eat and sleep, because I'd wake up, i'd go,
i'd exercise, I'd wake up, we'd get a run or something,
i have some breakfast, and i'd lay on the carpet.
I'd lay on the floor in the land room and
I'd go to sleep on the floor. And then i'd
wake up and i'd go and get some lunch and
then i'd sleep, and she goes all is My body

(58:24):
would just because it's like, oh, we've stopped, and yeah,
so I've been doing I noticed the last trip to
Tazzy waking up good energy, but a lot of afternoon
nabs and last Saturday really exhausted, and I'm like, okay, cool.
So it's just information and feedback that you're still, you know,

(58:47):
running on high speed a lot so just so there's
a lot of laying on the couch and I'm a
piano lesson on Saturday mornings and then I'd lay on
the couch and I'm like, oh, I'm just gonna lay
and do nothing.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
And that's and that's something that we often feel really
guilty about that, you know, I shouldn't be I shouldn't
I should be doing something, and we do. It's I
think it's worthwhile self reflection. So what is driving this? Yeah,
and there can be so many layers to that that
can be so much complexity around what's driving it. Sometimes

(59:24):
it's you know, unmet personal expectations or expectations we think
other people have on us, or maybe not feeling like
our parents were proud of us, and that maybe if
we just do one more thing, we'll, you know, they'll
finally tell us what we want to hear. Or maybe
we've just got so much pain and hurt and suffering

(59:45):
in our past that we can't stop because it might
just catch up with us and that's going to be
terribly hard to deal with than it is. But yeah,
I think the awareness is the first part. I think
it's such a good it's such a good thing. We
arrive with no plan to just talk about you know.
And I know as a parent too, like with the

(01:00:06):
fourteen and six nearly fifteen and seventeen, that like, I've
got a son who'll be an adult next May. I've
got one more summer with my eldest child and my parents.
Yesterday at lunch, I sat across from my mum and
next to my dad, and I was trying to be

(01:00:30):
mindful of being in the moment with my parents. You know,
you know, we're just being being there in the now
with them, and it's not easy. It's not easy. Our
minds don't really love to hang around in that way.
But but they're good reminders because we don't want to

(01:00:51):
find that when time runs out, whether it's for us
or for someone else, that we feel like, oh, I
wish i'd done that differently.

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
Yeah. Yeah, the way you described all of that before,
that that stuff that lives under the surface is not
always conscious, you know, like, and when we don't pause,
we don't ever realize it or we don't have words
for it. So I think when people listen to conversations
like this and they're like, oh, that's interesting, but you know,

(01:01:23):
you don't you don't have to have a conscious story
of something that might be activating it. Like you didn't
have a trauma associated with what your body then interpreted
and gave you the gift of anxiety for your life,
you know, like the body. The body experiences things and
is like you know, body knows when I go on
a holiday, and it's like, all right, we're shutting shop

(01:01:45):
on you. You're not functioning. So it's an environmental thing
and that can happen in all sorts of ways. It's
so interesting. Anyway, I better shut up because otherwise I'll
have you talking all day long, keeping you so good
to talk to you. Thank you so much. That was
a really interesting chat for me.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
Oh thank you you too. You've given me a lot
to think about, you really have. And there's just one
thing that I wanted to share with you, Chip because
I think you'll really appreciate this that I read. Again,
I can't quote my source, but you know what, like
with COVID, we were like, oh, we're all slowing down.
Things are a bit quieter at the start. First lockdown

(01:02:24):
we were in Melbourne. Six lockdown later, we weren't too
happy about it, but we sort of had that awareness
that oh gee, you know, life could be a little
bit more manageable. And then at the end it's like,
oh freedom, we can do things, we can connect, we
can and gosh, how grateful we are to be able
to do the simplest things like go to our coffee
shop that's six kilometers away, not five. But the illumination

(01:02:47):
doesn't last. And that was what I read recently. The
illumination doesn't last. You get this this wave of kind
of insight and awareness, like when my Auntie away last October,
I was like, oh gosh, life's so short, you know,
don't waste it. Appreciate the people. But that it wears off.

(01:03:10):
We go back to the norm and so constantly coming
back to these sorts of topics and conversations I think
is really important. So I appreciate, really appreciate you so much.
I love our chats and yeah, I feel without sounding wanky,
just like the lights got turned on again by this conversation.

(01:03:33):
That illumination that had sort of waned, It comes back
when you have a bit of time to stop and
think about it. So thanks TIF Well, I've.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
Got a book recommendation to finish on. I wrote it
down before. When you were talking. Have you read Quit
by I think it's any Duke, No, okay, Quit It
is brilliant, right, I read it recently, love it. So
it's kind of the opposite of grit. So it's the
science of quitting and really really compelling concepts in there,

(01:04:06):
talking about sunk costs, talking about you know, because we
have such that we grit gets the highlight, real grit
and resilience and go harder and keep pushing and never
give up. And it's like, sometimes sometimes quitting is the
smarter option holding on, letting go, let go, if she

(01:04:26):
let go, quit gives you two freehands to go for
the next thing. Yeah, yeah, I loved that book. So
I haven't listened to that audio. Thank you audio book,
and thank you for another awesome conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
Thank you TIV, Thanks so much.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Thanks everyone,