March 18, 2025 • 60 mins
Roofing contractors, this is a battle you need to see! In this episode, Garen Armstrong of Shamrock Roofing reveals how regulators in Iowa are targeting contractors with sting operations and cease-and-desist orders—putting family-owned businesses at risk. But Garen isn’t backing down. He’s taking the fight to federal court and leading the charge to protect contractors and homeowners alike.
Discover:
- The shocking sting operations designed to trap roofing contractors.
- How Garen’s federal lawsuit could set a new precedent for the industry.
- What YOU can do to navigate these challenges and protect your business.
Garen’s story is more than an inspiring fight; it’s a roadmap for growth, leadership, and resilience. Whether you’re battling regulatory overreach or looking to scale your company, this episode is packed with actionable insights from a true trailblazer.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Imagine everything you've worked for being wiped
out overnight.
Garen Armstrong is facing downregulators trying to inhibit
roofing contractors from doingbusiness, and he's here to show
you how to fight back and win.
In this episode, garen shareshis bold fight for contractor
rights, how he's scalingShamrock Roofing with precision
(00:22):
and the lessons he's learnedfrom navigating one of the
toughest markets in the country.
Garen Armstrong is a fearlessleader behind Shamrock Roofing,
a multi-million dollar roofingcompany built on grit, growth
and standing up for what's right.
Garen's story is a rallying cryfor contractors everywhere.
From battling unfair policiesin Iowa to leading a team that's
(00:45):
reshaping the roofing landscape, garen's mission is clear
Protect contractors, supportcommunities and never back down
from a challenge.
This episode is more than justa business story.
It's a movement.
Whether you're looking to growyour business, fight for your
rights or learn from a truetrailblazer, garen's insights
(01:05):
are unmissable.
Let's get started.
Welcome to the Roofing SuccessPodcast.
I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here tobring you insights from top
leaders in the roofing industryto help you grow and scale your
roofing business.
Shamrock Roofing is in thehouse.
Garen Armstrong, how are you,brother?
Hey, I'm great.
It's good to be here.
(01:26):
How are you doing?
It is man, it's been a couple ofyears since we chatted, I think
you, I love your story.
I love your story of overcomingadversity, the health issues
you had, how your team steppedup.
We talked about that on thelast podcast years ago and
(01:49):
wanted to have you back because,man, you just have continued to
grow and expand and it's beenamazing to watch and I think
it's a lot of fun, man.
Another thing you're gettinginto it with with with with
government officials.
Now you're, you're, you'regetting in the ring with with
(02:11):
with in the courts.
I'd love to talk to you alittle bit about that.
Let's start with that.
Man, from all the things you'vetold me, iowa has been kind of
getting to be a very treacherousplace for contractors in terms
(02:32):
of OOPA laws.
Talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, so the IID, the Iowa Insurance Department, has
been sending out cease anddesist orders to multiple
contractors, just puttingfamily-owned and operated
businesses out of work, andhired a police officer cop to
(02:59):
set up snitch lines and set up atrap house to call contractors
and have them come out to thehouse.
They had a little hurricanemicroburst up there that came
that, and so they had a houseover by there and they'd call
people out and if they broughtup the process, they said, hey,
you know, you don't need to filea claim, your roof is good.
(03:19):
You know, boom, they send thema cease and assist.
You know, if a contractor heardabout another contractor, they
would call on another contractor.
And you know, this roof isbrutal, right, you got, you got
contractors.
It's very cutthroat, and so youknow if their, if their
intention was to help thehomeowner, they wouldn't be
going at and gutting thecontractors and putting them out
(03:41):
of business.
And so they sent me a warningletter and I said my attorney
sent them back and asked themwhat are we doing?
What are you wrong?
They go, they list two pages, alist of this very vague stuff,
of some of these things thataren't even laws, they're not
even on the books, right, and soone of them was someone gave us
(04:01):
a five-star review on Googleand it said Caden did a great
job, he held me throughout theprocess, so they used the word
process in there, and so it wasjust a long laundry list of
things and I said you know, wecan't even talk, we can't even
breathe, can't even mark it, andso it's like a, so immediately
(04:22):
I just sued them in federalcourt.
It's like a, so immediately Ijust sued them in federal court.
I said let's, let's, let's,let's, let's, let the federal
judge, judges say what it is wecan and can't say versus the
Iowa insurance department,because they, they, they're,
they're, there's ways to do thisright.
Like I'm in 16 markets and nineStates, and this is the only
(04:43):
state that's this egregious onhow we work right, and so I'm
happy and I've got staterepresentatives in Iowa that
agree with me.
This is way heavy handed.
It's very wrong because of theamount of business that all
these roofers provide.
I mean, we're buying shingles,we're buying marketing, we're
(05:06):
hiring subcontractors, we'redoing all the things right, and
so it's a very unfriendlybusiness situation.
And in addition to that,where's the consumer protection
advocacy at right?
Because if they're under theattorney general, then then then
there's the insurancedepartment.
(05:27):
They're just lapdogs for theinsurance agencies that are
lobbying them to not pay theclaims out, because the consumer
protection agency should beprotecting them.
And the reason I did this isreally it's about the passion
that I have for, time and timeagain, the elderly, the elderly
80-year-old.
They pay their claims yearafter year and they're getting
(05:50):
denied.
They're on a fixed income andyou see their eyes start welling
up and then the roof iscompletely wrecked.
And yet I'm the first line ofdefense.
They don't even know what apublic adjuster is.
They don't know who's a publicadjuster, they don't know how to
.
Who's a public adjuster, firstand foremost?
So they call a roofer and thenwe come out there and start to
(06:12):
explain it.
But if you start to explain it,then boom, they put you out of
business.
Well, you know so.
And on top of that, a publicadjuster will only take the
claim if it's $50,000 or more,and the average claim is we do
is $17,000.
And so it's been I think toyour point.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
There is people don't call public adjusters to like
that's not their first call.
Really, their first call is toa contractor or to their
insurance agent, right Likethat's who they're calling first
.
And if you're calling yourinsurance agent, you know that
route, right Like there's youknow and then you know.
So having that, having you knowdifferent eyes on it, here's
what's crazy to me, because itlike it's like a sting operation
(06:57):
is what you're talking about,and this is where it's really
concerning, because you knowit's.
They're setting up housesinviting contractors to come in
and inspect a roof and thenhitting them with the cease and
desist because of anything thatthey've said at the like it's,
(07:20):
it's, it's.
That's crazy, man, like I meanthe, the phone line and things
like that is crazy too.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
But to actually set up like a sting operation to see
if someone's talking about aninsurance policy, to see if a
contractor is talking about aninsurance policy, yeah, wow,
like that, that's amazing, likethat's crazy, it's very
egregious and that's kind ofwhen you know you have, you have
(07:47):
to stand up, you know, and andand that's why I said you know,
okay, this is, I'm not going tofile this in in in in Iowa state
so it can sit there and spinaround in circles, because I'm
friendly with the state, I'mfriendly with the.
I mean, I do business, you know, I hire people from iowa.
I'm there, I'm not like wantingto go out of the state, but the
federal officials like.
(08:08):
So who's overseeing the, the,the, the head of the insurance
department of labor there,insurance department, sorry.
So like, because, like it's thesame, it's attorney general and
the attorney general isoverseeing the consumer
protection agency.
So yeah, but I guess nobody'slobbying the insurance or the
consumer protection agency.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
No one's lobbying on that side.
Yeah, no one's lobbying fromthe consumer side.
Yeah, and, man, it would beinteresting to know how this
came to be right, Like I wouldlike you know.
Maybe you'll get to kind offind some of that out as you go
through your case.
But you know, how did?
How did they?
(08:47):
How did they say, man, we needto crack down on this.
This is a problem big enoughwhere we're going to hire, you
know, a head of this department.
We're going to go and do thesesting operations and set up like
it's.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
So I wonder where that came from.
So I'll tell you.
I'll tell you.
So the reinsurance market hasgone up.
So insurance companies havereinsurance, right, and
reinsurance premiums have goneup nationwide from the storms
everywhere, right, yeah, and,and so they're.
Everyone's premiums have goneup significantly, right, and
(09:28):
they're, and you know, and theycall, they have these cat storms
, catastrophe storms, and thenthey call these little hail
storms, you know, they callkitty cat storms, right, and so
they're saying this all thesekitty cat storms are are adding
up right, and, and so they thinkthat you know we're responsible
for the storms that arehappening, when the only thing
(09:50):
we're responsible for isanswering a phone call or, you
know, going out there to go helpa homeowner with the roof.
That's again, our averageticket item is $16,000 to
$17,000.
So, at which, you know, thepublic adjusters don't even come
down and grab because it's notthere, and I think only 5% or
(10:15):
less than 5% of people even knowwhat a public adjuster is or
even how to get one If theywould accept that case in the
first place, accept that case inthe first place.
And so there's this whole marketof the 85% of people or more
that need help and, um, you knowthat's the solution is.
(10:35):
The solution is want they needpast testing for a lot for to be
a general contractor or get aroofing license there.
They need to have moreinsurance.
They need to raise the bar forpeople to be able to get in in
the roof in Iowa.
There's a whole lot of thingsthat can do different and I'm
happy, you know that's why I gotthe state representatives talk
to him about it, because Iwasn't going to go talk to Doug
(10:56):
Oman about it.
Who's the guy who was appointedby the?
You know he's about to retire.
Like, just go ahead and retireearly, because I know this case
is going to take some time.
I'm not letting off.
So, and the copy hired, I gottheir names too.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
But yeah, man, that's it, that's.
That's such a tough one.
Is they looked at language, notonly on your website about your
company and what you guys do,but looking at those Google
reviews, this is something thatyou know like.
(11:38):
It's a homeowner, it's acustomer, someone you know
writing this.
It's not you guys writing it.
It's a customer, or someone youknow writing this.
It's not you guys writing it.
It's not even that's.
That is another egregious thingto write like how, how, how far
reaching and how much are theylike the type of digging that
they're actually doing into,into this?
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Like right, it's, it's, it's, it's over the top
and and and it's not onlyviolating my freedom of speech,
but, I have you know, it'sviolating other people's freedom
of speech about me.
So now somebody can't say thatI've done a good job, you know.
So it's like when's that goingto stop?
(12:20):
Like, you know, how do wechange it?
And so you know, that's why thefederal court is the proper
venue and jurisdiction for this.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Well, you know, keep the industry updated on how
things are going.
Man, that's a, you know, get.
There's a lot of people I knowa lot of good roofers in Iowa
that I could connect you withtoo and make sure you guys are,
all you know, kind of alignedand moving in the right
direction.
And having the having acohesive voice Cause it, man,
that this type of stuff is crazy.
(12:50):
I know, I know, I know RolandBrown had to deal with this down
in Texas.
You know and, and, and, and andhad a had a struggle.
It didn't end as in in the waythat that that it that it
probably should have for roofingcontractors, right that's right
.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
You know he filed it in state court and Supreme Court
.
You know that's where we wentstraight to the federal court.
And also, you know there's alot of good roofing contractors
in Iowa and there's a lot ofgood public adjusters, right.
(13:47):
But when NAPIA NationalAssociation of Public Adjusters
are consistently praising theIID for their work, and then
TAPIA and NAPIA wrote an amicusbrief to the state regarding
against Stonewater, that's whenyou know I'll use public
adjusters who aren't associatedwith napia or tapia.
I mean, they poisoned the wellthey really did.
You know they want to live offthe backs.
They want to market to publiccontractors like me, because,
again, nobody knows what apublic adjuster is, and yet then
they want to stab us in theback at the same time.
(14:07):
Yeah it's.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
It's crazy, man.
There's a self-interest, is a,is a is a strange thing, right,
and it comes from all facets.
It's the self-interest of thepublic adjusters, but the the
self-interest of governmentagencies, right, adjusters, but
the self-interest of governmentagencies, right, they feel like
they always have to do more andalways have to.
You know, hopefully we get somechanges in that here in the
(14:32):
next few years.
Yes, looking forward to that.
Yeah, hopefully, man it's, youknow, because it could get crazy
, or it already is crazy, italready is crazy.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
And even if this case , you know, puts them back on
their heels and say, hey, hey,we're forcing this way too hard,
we need to step back in ourlane, we need to readjust how
we're talking.
You know going after people, or, you know, get their alignments
in place, I'd be happy to say,hey, dude, this, what works up
(15:04):
in my other eight States thatI'm in, you know you're
licensing your insurance, orthis, you're this, you're this,
you know to to weed out a lot ofthe bad contractors, right,
yeah, that's, that's what you,that's all they have to do, and
it's a revenue source, becausethen they're paying to be a part
of it.
They're paying.
(15:26):
You know all these things,things so it even helps the
state.
But, um, now that I got theirattention then I'll be happy to
sit down with them and and goover how we can help, uh, fix
the situation.
I mean, if they weren't settingup, you know, sting operations
and stuff, then then maybe Iwould have been gone about a
little different, but they did,yeah, it was a very like that.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
That, like you said, that's a very egregious thing,
man.
Like Like that's reallycrossing some lines there.
You know, like it's a it's likewhat are you like?
It's like they do that toliquor stores and you know like
they send underage people intoliquor stores.
They do like that's the type ofstuff, like that's.
It seems like it's for it'smuch more for outside of of of
(16:03):
what we do on a regular basisright, this is this yeah, this,
this is crazy man, right like so, so.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
So it's like a felony , it's not.
You know it's a fine, butthey're putting people's
livelihood out of businesscompletely, and the
subcontractors and there's awhole, and and the manufacturers
who's buying from them.
The whole impact that they'redoing to hurt the ecosystem and
the economy there in Iowa.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Let's talk about it a little bit on a broader scale,
because you do operate in eightstates, right?
How do you navigate the kind ofthe differences in regulation
from all of the jurisdictionsthat you work in?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
So a lot of attorneys , national attorneys, so that's
one thing.
But you know, obviously we havea large back office and you
know we study the states, whatthey are, the municipal, the
codes in each state.
You know what the licenses looklike and the municipalities and
(17:10):
then, um, you know, adhere tothose.
So you know.
For you know, I just got backfrom Colorado, had to take the
Pikes Peak Class A GeneralContractors Exam.
I've already had a Class AGeneral Contractors exam for
eight years, but they wantedtheir very own.
So you know I had to go outthere to do that.
(17:34):
And of course, you know theinsurance requirements and
things like that, which it'sjust something that separates
the wheat from the shaft, right,and so I'm happy to do it.
That's what Shamrock represents, you know, and we over-insure
our you know so that and ourquality of work.
(17:54):
So, but when we're dealing with, you know, it's nine states and
16 locations we definitely havea great back office looking at,
you know, pulling the permits,working on everything and
working on that.
So it's not an easy feat.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
You know how have you structured that?
You know, do you have?
How have you structured it fromoperationally?
You know, do you have a centrallocation for a lot of things?
And then you know you have yourlocal stuff.
How, how would?
I think it's interesting topeople who are looking to grow
right like you know, man, wecould, you know we could, we
could go and set up a shop thereand they could be completely
(18:32):
independent and and runeverything there.
What maybe some of you knowwhat?
How have you structured it andwhat efficiencies have you found
in in the way that you'vestructured it?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
So we structured it with the hub and smoke model to
where we have HQ in Kansas city,and then all of our branches
are, you know, they started outgoing, you know, three hours
away, you know.
So we went up North, you know,omaha Lincoln, des Moines, and
then started going, you know,and then the seasonality of
roofing started to hurt usreally bad in the wintertime.
(19:05):
And so then then we startedgoing down to the Southern
markets um to keep the to, tolevel out the seasonality uh,
still a real thing, but um, sothen that's what we did, and
then what we, we, we stayedthere for quite some time while
we figured it out, and the waywe did that was having the, the
um, the headquarters there,pulling permits, you know.
(19:28):
So we have everybody togetherin, you know, in an office, two
offices actually 27,000 squarefeet, but uh, that are working
together, that's able toleverage other people's
knowledge in the office, so thatin a branch we have an office
(19:48):
manager, a branch manager in,basically, field trainers that
are, that are out with the guys,you know, as well as quality
control, and then so that's howwe set up each market and then,
once we got that figured out,from the three-hour radius of
the Shamrock Nation.
Then we were able to start, youknow, daaining locations
(20:10):
further um, and you know that'sbeen our, our, so, so we're down
all the way down in in houstonnow, we're all the way over into
into colorado springs, denvernow, and up to, uh, south dakota
.
So, but you know, and the goalis to move up to the quad cities
(20:31):
in Iowa, cause I really, reallylove the people in Iowa.
What I love working in theheartland is, you know, a
handshake still means something,and that's, you know.
I like to say that I'mbrilliant and I planned this.
I'm just born and raised fromhere, you know, and so we've
been.
I've always had storms grew upin it and um and so, so anyway,
(20:53):
so that's why I, you know, Iwrote the people of Iowa.
I mean, that's what I reallylike working there.
And then so, when they did that, I'm like, look man, this is
not right.
And so that's also what ledinto that.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
But yeah, yeah for sure.
Now, as you're growing frommarket to market, let's talk
about what you're thinking about, like and and you know what
you're thinking about now notone of not some of those first
ones, right like, because I'msure some of the first ones was
like oh, it's a three-hour drive, there's a storm there.
Let's go right like that's,that's how, and maybe that's not
(21:23):
how it happened, but that's howit usually happens, right like.
Yeah, um it from a strategicaspect now, because now it
sounds like, I mean, now, at thesize you guys are at, there's
some strategy, right?
So?
when you're looking at yourexpansion.
You know, talk me through whatyou know, your kind of what
you're thinking, how you'relooking at the market, the team,
(21:47):
what you're going to need interms of you know, from a team
side of things, from alogistical side of things, what
are you, what do you?
Walk me through that.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
So I'm looking at the market demographics of where
I'm going to go first.
So if I'm, because I've gone toI've opened up, all of my
offices are brick and mortar, soI've opened up brick and mortar
in some locations that aresmaller and the way I market we
have a 600-time chance ofwinning the market, gaining the
(22:22):
market share, and so there'ssome smaller, sub-secondary
markets that we can just gothrough so quick and I've got to
dial back my marketing smaller,you know, sub-secondary markets
so we can just go through soquick, right, and I gotta dial
back my marketing.
So I'm looking for biggermarkets, older homes or bigger
markets that are that aregrowing, expanding, and then
then I'm going in there.
You know, obviously in my areawhere I live, you know,
(22:45):
throughout the midwest, it'snatural storms every year.
So it's storms are seasonal innature, reoccurring in nature.
So I'm looking for, you know,the population of the
demographics to go in there onand and to be able to support
the markets.
And then immediately I'm, I'm,I'm buying a location that has a
(23:06):
utility, a flex space that I'mable to put, you know, shingles,
my material, put my trailers,my trucks, you know, and
immediately I'm moving in withfive to 10 trucks.
I'm opening it up, I'mrecruiting.
I've already I've been doinginternet marketing at that point
, that location, three monthsprior.
(23:26):
You know so I'm alreadymarinating the market.
They know I'm coming, they seeit.
You know, most of the time wehave leads coming in there, you
know.
So the recruiting knows we'recoming there and so, um, that's
how we we move.
So, like, if my competitorsstart seeing recruiting ads,
start seeing a marketing, youknow they.
(23:47):
You know they can start to.
You're coming, gary's coming,they can start to.
You know.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
You're coming, gary's coming, he's going to be here
soon.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
I love that and this is, you know, it's the struggles
early on and it's the benefitsof size is that you can allocate
resources in that directionwithout needing the return on
investment to be soinstantaneous, right.
And so when you're smaller andyou don't have huge budgets and
(24:22):
you don't have the opportunityto do this, hey, all right, for
three months we're going to go,like, if you're going into a
market, let's just you know, ina range of that first three
months from a recruitingmarketing for recruiting and
marketing that you're going to,that you're entering the market,
what kind of range of a budgetwould you put on that three
(24:45):
month period?
Month period for someone who'sstarting up?
Or for me, for you like to goin and and and like, because I
like to see people, I wantpeople to understand the, the,
the differences, right, likethat, that you know because it,
(25:05):
when you actually understandmarketing, as as the way that
you guys do, you know youunderstand what it takes and
sometimes it takes a lot right.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, so just on marketing, not for recruiting,
just for marketing.
I'm spending $20,000 a month inDenver right now and that's
just.
You know all things.
That's OTT, that's internet,that's you know everything.
But I'm going there and youknow, plus recruiting budgets,
(25:42):
plus you're buying your trucks,plus the insurance in Colorado
is a lot more expensive.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So there's a big initial investment right when
you're going there.
But, you know, I one of my theway I like to put it, garen is
if you have faith in the outcome, you'll execute.
Right.
So, like you guys have havecreated faith in the outcome
through the actions that you'vedone through the years.
So you know, man, we're goingto do this and we know the
outcome that we're going to getto.
Now that outcome may vary,right, you've been to markets
(26:14):
where the outcome is varied, andyou know.
But and I don't know if you'veever had a market that you're
like, yeah, that didn't work outfor us and you pulled back out
of yes, I have DFW.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
We went in from Tulsa down into Plano.
We marketed hard, we got a lotof leads.
You got to be ready.
It's so big, it's so expanding,but they get so many storms
that they'll wait two years orthree to replace their roof.
They won't go right away andand and on top of that it's you
(26:53):
know they, those suppliersthey'll sell a billion dollars a
year in material and thatmarket is so saturated.
That is a broken market.
I mean, if you want to be in DFW, go retail, a hundred percent
retail, and you gotta, you gottaseparate yourself from the rest
because there's no licenses.
Anybody can be a roofer.
(27:14):
And so, first thing, I'm a partof RCAD.
I'd love to change thelegislation in Texas to where
you have to be licensed.
You have to because there's somuch.
I mean, that's another statethat I would like to help you
know in as well like, instead of, you know, going out using
these upa laws to get rid ofcontractors, just raise the bar
(27:35):
for contractors, have them belicensed, have them have
insurance, have them have thesethings, and that's going to weed
out so many people, and thenyou'll get more quality of work,
because there's so much shoddywork down there.
It's just bad, but anyway, it'sjust with all the other markets
that I'm in.
It wasn't worth the worth worthit.
I mean, I'm still there, right,like we still have a presence
(27:56):
there.
We still roof there.
You call them, we'll go toretail work.
It's all retail, um, but it'sit's, you know it's.
It's a cheaper, everything's.
You know you're not gettingpaid as much for your roof.
It takes longer.
They, the homeowners, have beenconditioned over the years.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
You mean?
Speaker 2 (28:17):
so if I go with you for your roof, I don't get in
this drawing for the shotgun andthis trip and you're like
shotgun, who's offering ashotgun and a trip?
If I go for you, right, likethey have stacks of flyers, you
know when you go through theneighborhoods so and they've
been told you know so manydifferent things.
I mean they see you coming upthe driveway.
(28:38):
They're like ha ha, we got onethat's right.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, how, uh, so?
So we're okay.
Let's go back a little bit.
We're going in, going into amarket.
You're going to have a budget,so you know, $60,000 for
marketing for the first threemonths.
You've got another recruitingbudget, five trucks, You're
renting a flex space.
One of the things that I wantto go into a little bit with you
how much material.
(29:08):
I think we talked about thislast time on the podcast too
that you buy and manage your owninventory for material right.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yes, so we have our own warehouse and our own supply
company which we buy.
You know, 30 trucks at a timedelivered.
You know we're the secondlargest IKO purchaser in the
country, so you know we buy themin bulk.
(29:40):
You know IKO and CertainTeed iswhat we go with, and you know
just, certainteed has a niceluxury line and IKO has.
You know, shingles have reallybeen been impressive and and the
and their reps, the national,the reps, have been great to
work with as well, because eventhough each market we're in,
(30:03):
it's still a personal business.
You know, and even from fromthe top line of dealing with.
You know SRS, beacon, abc.
You know, while I'm greatfriends with the national
account sales people it's thebranch down in northwest
Arkansas Well, they may not beup to snuff with what so-and-so
(30:28):
is telling them to do and how totreat.
You know shamrock and that typeof thing.
It's kind of a good old boynetwork still, you know.
So, which is fine, you know.
But then we go in there.
You know we shake their hand.
Hey, this is what we do, thisis how we do it, this is what to
expect.
But to get back to your point,yeah, we so here.
You know we buy in bulk.
(30:49):
You know, cause, it's no secret, every quarter there's a 15%
raise in shingle prices.
So we buy in bulk and and, andthen we're able to then and
we've got our own conveyortrucks or own, you know
everything.
So we're, you know, throughout.
You know, throughout thegreater metropolitan area.
You know we're delivering allof our own.
(31:10):
And you know what happened.
You know, I learned this in2020, when shingles you couldn't
get shingles and as a roofer,if you can't get shingles,
you're out of business and so wejust started buying them.
Buying, you know, slowly, itwas just a little bit, so that
we'd had some if it ever got tothat bad again.
You know, I mean, and still,right now, everyone's on
(31:33):
allocation.
We just have orders in, so whenthe, the plant has them, we are
already set to get so manytrucks from that, because, I
mean, we're still in allocationfrom all the storms down in, in,
you know, florida, northcarolina, um, and all that, so
um, and then the hurricanebarrel that hit houston.
So there's just a lot of youknow there's a lot of material
(31:57):
going out.
I know there's a lot of ofthoughts like, oh no, people are
storing shingles and they'reraising the prices on purpose.
And I'm like, are you not likelooking at what's going on in
the storms?
You know people are goingthrough them like I don't,
there's no plan.
That's like storing shingles.
If there is, then I, I, youknow, surprised me, they shocked
(32:17):
me.
But yeah, um, you know it'sreally a supply and demand
situation and, uh, that's whatwe're dealing with.
So that's why I buy them andstock up with them.
And then you go, as as whenyou're in nine States and you're
at 16 markets, you, you, youcan't.
I mean I, I, you'll be friendswith all of them ABC, beacon,
(32:37):
srs, like you know, a lot ofpeople were like I'm not ever
using ABC again because X, y, z,I'm not ever using Beacon again
because of you know ABC.
So, and I'm like no, you, you,you, you know, you got to play
nice with all of them and andyou can't be in love with just
one manufacturer.
And you know, and same with ourNorthern markets.
(33:00):
I mean, we use them a lot ofmalarkey too up North.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
But so, yeah, so it started as man, let's get, let's
have things in stock so we cancontinue to work.
That was the original.
If I'm hearing you right, thatwas the original intention for
buying materials in bulk, mainlyshingles and things like that
right?
But how has that changed?
(33:24):
Because I know a lot ofcontractors now that are very
strategically buying theirmaterials Maybe it's not
shingles, maybe they're buyingall their underlayment or their
pipe boots it doesn't have tojust be shingles but they're
buying materials in bulk anddoing inventory management more
(33:46):
on a basis of of it's foradditional profitability, right,
like they're taking on.
You know how has that impactedyour profitability in?
You know you know it startedoff with hey, we need to be able
to work.
You know how have you been ableto, you know, improve or or how
has it impacted yourprofitability now over the last
(34:09):
few years that you've been doingit?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
So it has impacted the profitability.
But remember, I mean, eachtrailer is a quarter million
dollars.
You know a conveyor is aquarter million dollars.
You know, and if you're buying,you know underlayment and
you're felt and you know you'resaving some money, that's great.
But then you know you've got tomake sure you got you're out
there on that job and you'refelt and you know you're saving
some money, that's great.
(34:31):
But then you know you've got tomake sure you got you're out
there on that job and you got tomake sure that it's not short
and you got to make sure thatit's, it's there.
So you, you, you, you reallyneed to be careful about that,
you know.
And so, um, we there was a lotof of of learn business,
learning lessons, that I thatI'll call them that I that I've
paid for, uh, to get here, um,and there's been some months
(34:52):
that have not been profitable,um, from that you know.
And so when you're paying for alot of of of equipment, um, but
I think you know, as people arebuying underlayment, you know
that's great, you know they canget their own marketing, their
own, you know, personalized.
You know underlayment, you knowthat's that's, that's great.
(35:15):
But you know there's, there's.
There's more to it than that.
You know, when I'm looking atit I'm like you know what about
a box of nails?
Can I, how much can I?
Can I get some?
You know, nails to what's?
You know, if I'm gettingsomething, I want to of it.
So, and I'm putting a ordertogether for a home.
I've got it all together, youknow, ready, ready to go, yeah,
and so now you know we getpallets ready for each you know
(35:36):
house that we're going out for,and then it's wrapped up and
it's ready to go, shrink,wrapped and ready for for there.
Ready for come, pick it up.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Right, come in, pick it up like load the trailer and
you know you guys are on yourway and so that's a whole nother
.
It's almost like you have to.
It's a whole nother.
Business within your business,right?
Like there's a team that needsto be put in place, especially
if you're doing it at scale.
What were some of the keylessons you learned from that
(36:08):
aspect?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Yeah.
So starting out, I mean you'restepping over dollars to pick up
pennies.
Starting out, you're doing thatLike, yes, you're saving some
money on underlayment, yes,you're saving some money on this
.
But then you realize your timeand that you're spending to get
all the material together, toget it out.
There is opportunity cost fromyou going out there and taking
(36:31):
care of another homeowner, andso that was the first lesson I
learned, but it was out ofnecessity.
It was in 2020, when everythingwas on allocation, and it did
hurt the profitability from theoperational cost.
Well, yet you were able to makesome bump in your margin from
(36:52):
material.
You're losing out on volume.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Yep, it's a balance right, like there's always a.
Everyone wants easy buttons,right, and that's what I'm
trying to point out is there'snot an easy button to this.
But, you know, like, if you doit effectively, if you can
manage your, manage inventoryand your materials effectively,
(37:22):
there's a lot of benefits to it,but you have to do it
effectively.
It's not just, hey, we just,you know, we a you know, we just
ordered this and we're going towrite the check and
everything's going to be great,like, right, right.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Like, look, I just say $5,000.
Well, yeah, you're going to bespending your time on that and
you could have been sold twomore roofs, that's right.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
That's right, exactly .
Speaker 2 (37:46):
All right, I'm going to talk go into?
Speaker 1 (37:48):
yeah, go for it.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Oh, I was saying about the easy button.
You know, that was kind ofbrought us up to uh, what we was
talking about earlier.
You know, when there's so muchinformation out there and people
want to pick your brain or havea lunch or or versus kind of
digging into what's this, your251st podcast?
You know?
Yeah, there's so much knowledgethat you put out there already,
(38:12):
you know, and others, that'sthat's free for people to listen
and learn from, but they watchand listen yeah, for people
listening, we're chattingoffline a little bit about you
know.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
People will approach garen a lot about you know and
have a lot of questions aboutyou know, helping, and he's
always really open to share.
But it gets to a point whereit's like, man, we, you know,
everyone out there there is likeyou got to execute Right, like
the way that I put it, garen,let me get your thoughts on this
.
Like for me, I think peoplespend too much time on process
(38:47):
in the beginning.
Yes, and I think that theyspend too much time on process
and not selling, and if you'renot selling anything, you don't
know how to.
You won't know how to to, to,to improve your processes
because there's nothing comingthrough Right.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
I think you hit the nail on the head because every
single time I hear this process,process eos, process eos I'm
like.
You know how many times myprocesses have changed as we've
expanded and changed over theyears, dealing with the
seasonalities and the storms andthe different situations that
come up from life and thebusiness changing.
I mean, I'm constantly innever-ending learning processes
(39:28):
myself.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Constant, and that's the thing what I love about EOS
is it creates an environment forsolving those problems on a
weekly, quarterly and annualbasis, right.
But what it does not marketitself as is the solution to
your problems going away.
It's just a framework to makesure you're solving your
(39:55):
problems in a specific way,right, Like identify, discuss
and solve and let's move onbecause there will always be
another problem.
And then, like you're dealingwith now, you're moving to a new
location, new state, newjurisdictions, new culture.
(40:17):
You know there's, there'sdifferent cultures.
Houston is a much differentplace culturally than Des Moines
, right?
Like there's, it's a you knowthe Midwest, the West, going out
to Denver and in differentplaces.
You know that there's always aproblem to solve and you have to
(40:38):
fall in love with solvingproblems because there will
always be problems.
So go out and create problemsfor yourself.
That's right.
How?
Speaker 2 (40:49):
about that, Like how about?
Speaker 1 (40:50):
that's the first thing we do in business.
Is we go out and create someproblems for ourselves, right?
Speaker 2 (40:55):
And those problems should be.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
The problem should be I've sold a job.
How can I now?
How can I build this job?
That's the first problem, right?
But the first problem is how doI sell a job?
Then it's how do I build a job?
Then it's how do I build a job?
Then it's how do I getefficient at building a job?
Then it's how do I get?
You know, how do I getefficient at selling jobs?
How do I get and?
Speaker 2 (41:17):
it's just, it's non-stop.
Yeah, it's bad things happenwhen you stop selling.
That's bottom line.
You got to keep selling andthat's it because I mean it's
challenging the efficiencieswill come.
The efficiencies will come overtime.
You know, yeah, but you, yougot to be selling the job.
Profitable jobs like I.
You know there's a lot of jobs.
I say it's not a shamrockclient, you know I'm not.
(41:39):
I'm not racing to the bottomfor a client.
You know if someone else has ajob and it's less than you know
percent you know 40 profitmargin have it go.
Let someone else.
You know percent you know 40%profit margin have it go.
Let someone else.
You know I'm not.
You know I don't want to armwrestle for each client Cause
there's a client down the streetthat has, you know, two kids in
(42:01):
soccer.
They don't.
They want, they want to bedealt with.
They don't want to worry aboutsaving, you know, whatever
percent of money they can justhave.
They know that Shamrock's there.
We've been around close to 50years.
They're going to take care ofit from A to Z.
They can go on and live theirlives.
If there's a problem with thewarranteeering, they can call us
(42:22):
.
We'll be out there to fix it.
And so you know the race to thebottom is a loser's game.
And my advice to everyonestarting up.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
don't get into it Definitely.
How do you like?
How do you price jobs to?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
maintain profitability.
So you know, basically, youknow there's where's my book at.
I have a little book here.
Steve Patrick talks about itquite a bit, but you know 40%.
You know it's Markup andOverhead.
I think it's called Markup andProfit, but it's 40% and so and
(43:03):
it's, you know, I think the guywho wrote it might be 90 years
old, but it rings true today.
So you know, I wish I had it's.
It rings true today.
So, um, um, and I wish I had it, I'd pull it out real quick and
show you, but it's, I thinkit's.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Let's mark up where I think people get, get a little
off right, like, is there, like,well, why do you need 40?
I, I think some people do this.
They they're like man, that'skind of, maybe that's ripping a
homeowner off or maybe that,like, a lot of people feel that
way, I, I don't like, but what I, what are the unexpected
expenses that you, that, thatthat you're building into that
(43:34):
right, like this is where Ithink, like, like there's a lot
of things that there's blindspots that people see in those
margins when they're talkingabout you know, you're talking
about your gross profit margins.
People have blinders to, youknow, to what goes into that
right.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Well, I mean your liability if you're putting a
warranty on that roof, if you'recarrying that liability, for
you know the craftsmanshipliability, your general
liability that you're paying foreverything.
You're paying to stay inbusiness.
That's why the average roofingcontractor is out of business.
In what three years?
(44:13):
They're not out in three years,they're out, and you know,
before 10.
So, because they don't make it,because they don't build enough
profitability in their jobs andthey even talk about it in the
book, really encourage it.
Um, maybe we'll put it upafterwards.
But, um, people think, well,I'll make it up on the next job,
I'll make it up on the next job.
You can't.
(44:34):
And it's a downward spiral andthen you're climbing, trying to
climb out of a hole, and so you,you got to have a profitability
on there, otherwise you're,you're going backwards and
what's the point of all of therisks that you're taking as an
entrepreneur?
I mean, it's already theseventh most dangerous
profession that we're in numberone.
No, you know so.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
So get paid yeah, and and and I think there's other
things.
That's why you know you talkand I know you guys.
You know because you're able togo into a market and market so
heavy and go after hiring andyou're able to make that
investment in the next market orin the markets that you're in,
(45:17):
because you have that right,because you have room for it.
There's room for that, there'sroom for good people, there's
room for paying for good people,right, like?
Speaker 2 (45:26):
you gotta have.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
All of that is like, is stuff that we don't look at
in those margins and um, so youhave your liability.
You have good people, you havegood marketing.
You have like you.
You have, then, created anenvironment where you can go and
buy product in bulk.
You've created an environmentlike but none of this comes from
(45:49):
shortchanging yourself right,you're always how'd you put it?
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Clean uniforms, clean job sites, clean trailers,
clean, you know, equipment.
Everyone's looking good,feeling good, you know, and
performing good, and qualitypeople are more expensive than
non-quality people, and while Iview myself as a great leader, I
might not be the best manager,you know.
So I have great managers that Ihire and they are great at
(46:19):
managing people.
I'm good at kicking openmarkets, so, and great managers
aren't cheap, that's right.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
They're not.
Let's talk about yourmanagement structure and your
expansion through through.
You know, as you've grown intothese other states, you know you
.
You told me that you guysreally recruit from within.
You build leaders and you moveto other markets with those
leaders.
Talk through that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
Yeah, so, you know, as we grow, we hire from within.
Culture is so important.
It's the glue that holdseverything together and Shamrock
Nation, and so we have thebranch manager and training that
we have that we're constantlytraining leaders.
So we're touching on leadershipskills, constantly training
(47:07):
them so that when an opportunityarises you know, because
they've been with us long enough, they know our culture, they
know we're going to open a newmarket and so they're able to.
You know, hey, hey, you know,put me in coach, I want to go
open up this new market.
That's, you know, two hoursaway.
Great, you're up, boom, let'sgo.
And so they're able to go thenbe a branch manager and then
(47:30):
start, man, you know, overseeingtheir crew.
We start recruiting for them.
They're getting, they'regetting paid more.
They're a manager now, whichcomes with a lot of
responsibility, because I have alot of liability, and so the
responsibility, in the wordalone, is the ability to respond
.
Know it's, you know theyhaven't earned their dues yet.
(48:12):
They how do I know?
This guy Especially retreads inthe roofing business, right?
Speaker 1 (48:18):
Yeah, it's it, that's a, that's a big thing.
So your culture is kind offiltering people.
They're like, well, we got it,you got it.
And so to put someone in amanager position and have people
read like that's a, that's atough one.
What makes, what makes a greatbranch manager for you guys?
What are some of the traits?
(48:38):
What are the outcomes thatthey're producing?
What makes a great branchmanager?
What?
Speaker 2 (48:42):
are their personality .
Speaker 1 (48:44):
What's their personality Like?
What is what do you?
How do you know, man, thisperson's going to be it right.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
It's consistency, it's loyalty, it's not prima
donna, it's giving a servantleader mindset.
It's somebody who puts othersabove themselves to see them
rise.
And so when they're stayinglate, to help a new guy learn,
(49:12):
to make the process, to put hisorders in right so that he can
make a good commission and hecan really get into this job.
Because you know, once peoplebecome a roofer, they're roofers
for life.
I mean, they love it and theystay in it.
But if they don't get in it andthey don't start making their
commissions and they're notgetting paid, then it's not for
them.
And so a servant leader's heartthat's going to be helping
(49:36):
others grow.
That's what I look for, andconsistency, yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
So that's the.
You're looking for leadership,not management in a way.
Right, like I think that I meanthey manage people, but they
have a that you guys have had inin in many markets, because
(50:11):
it's not the person that's goingthere has that man.
They, they're, it's intentional, it sounds like they're really
there and they have a, thatservant leadership mindset to
really grow.
Um, as you know, as as you're,as you're not every market in
(50:34):
your area.
You know cause you said what'dyou call it?
The?
The sham shamrock nation, right?
You're very heavy heavy in inmore like, like the Midwest and
things like that.
Not every market has the sameactivity every year.
How are you?
You know, are you able to, totake some of the team from Omaha
and and shoot them over to?
You know they cruise over toDes Moines or what.
(50:56):
You know what's the?
You know how does the, the, howdoes the ecosystem work from a,
from a, from a macro level toassist in?
You know, when there is the,the, when bigger opportunities
arise in the markets that you'rein, yeah, great question.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
So you know, throughout the heartland and
South Central where we're at.
I mean there's stormsseasonally but if, say, a storm
hits northwest Arkansas, we'reable to swarm it from.
You know, bringing the St Louisguys, some Kansas City guys
shifting Tulsa over, bringingLittle Rock up and hitting it
(51:33):
hard, and so that's how we'reable to do that.
That's one way.
The other way is we'veimplemented, we have a repair
program and the roofrejuvenations so that we're
consistently selling repairs.
I mean, we're brick and mortarin each place, so we're not
really storm chase, we're not.
(51:54):
We're not storm chasers if we,we are just located in storm
alley.
So we are the largest stormcatchers met in the nation,
that's for sure.
So shamrock nation is thelargest storm catchers met in
the nation, that's for sure.
So Shamrock Nation is thelargest stormcatcher's mitt in
the nation.
But we're brick and mortar andwe're there to do repairs and
roof rejuvenations and as well.
(52:15):
So but with that opportunity,from having so many locations,
you know we have a lot of youngbucks that are willing to like
hey, you know, put me in, coach,let's go down, I'm ready to go
down to OKC, all right, well,let's go.
And so you know we will, we'llput them up and, and then
(52:35):
they're there for for untilthey're ready to go back.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
Do you do that Like it's like, do you just kind of
put the word out to otherbranches?
Hey, that you know big, youknow we got a big opportunity
down in this market right now.
Is anyone interested in going?
Is that just as simple as that?
Speaker 2 (52:52):
Yeah, it's as simple as that and they make a work
trip out of it.
Usually we get an Airbnb and acouple of them and the guys are
on their way down, or gals.
We have a lot of gals that aredoing really, really great in
(53:16):
the industry Um, I love it, andum, and, and they're, they're on
their way down and they're,they're, they're, they're,
they're there for, for work andum, but uh, then they go back.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
The uh, one of the things that I hear from you from
a marketing perspective.
You guys do a lot of marketing,how you know.
I feel like, especially instorm markets, a lot of times
sales reps get attached to thenext door and they just focus on
the next door.
But when that phone call comesin and sometimes it's across
(53:47):
town, right, and that repdoesn't like leaving that little
honey hole that they're inknocking doors to get across
town you know how do you balancethat and how do you not create?
I guess another side of it ishow do you not create lead
babies out of you know, becauseof the marketing push that
(54:08):
you're doing, that they're still, that your reps are still like
in it and active and you know,going after business.
Speaker 2 (54:16):
Yeah, that's a that's a million dollar question right
there, and one that I've had tobalance out, because we do.
We have the lead babies thatthat are, that are great at
leads, and then you have theguys that they'll like turn me
off leads I don't even wantleads and they want to be out
there and and that's okay.
But I, even with that said, Idon't take lead babies, unless
(54:38):
and if they are, then they'rejust a W2 employee and and.
But what I would do is I rewardthe people who are out there in
the field hustling with theleads.
So if they hit a dry spot, youknow you knock so much doors,
right, so you're going to hitthe subdivision, you hit the
cul-de-sac, you got the six-pack.
But then you know then they'relike, okay, here's another lead.
(55:02):
They find another area Becausethey were working it so hard,
here's another lead.
So we do play favorites.
Speaker 1 (55:15):
If you're hustling, we're going to reward you with
positive behavior.
I love that because I thinkthat there shouldn't be equality
in lead distribution.
Right, yeah, like, why wouldyou give, especially when you're
spending marketing dollars?
Right, when you're investing alot of money in marketing and
you're giving it to your worstcloser man, like you're, what
(55:38):
are you doing there?
Right, like, you know, like yougotta be, you know, the people
that are executing on a highlevel should have priority in
some of these things.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
Man, I'm with you there, cause yeah, we're results
driven organization that wantto take care of our homeowners
at the best possible way.
So we continue to keep ourratings um and our service of
what we do.
And you know, I, I, I subscribeto a Jack Welch uh philosophy.
Like I'll cut the 20% right outthe gate, like look, if you're
(56:11):
not keeping up with the top,you're gone, you're off the team
.
I don't want you dragging mytop people down, and they will.
They'll drag you down, but theguys because the guys will try
to lift them up, keep liftingthem up, but just leverage in
natural will pull them down.
So if they're not out there,they're just on the team to be
(56:33):
part of, just to be a shamrock,or to come hang out to get the
free pizza, to get the freebreakfast we have at Saturday
sales meetings and all that jazz.
Like I'm not having it.
Like go find someplace else.
Yeah, I'll refer you to theroofer down the street.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
So it sounds like standards are the answer.
Standards right Like standardssounds like an answer to me to.
To kind of summarize what yousaid there, like having
standards and holding people tothem is a great way.
I want to kind of finalize thisout with with the.
You know you've been in thebusiness for a long time, you've
seen a lot of things, you'vehad your own struggles and and
(57:10):
know your peaks and valleys andthings like that.
What changes do you see comingin the industry and how are you
adapting to those changes?
Speaker 2 (57:21):
So you know, traditionally being in the
Hale-Swath area, I'm seeing abig insurance shift.
So we're doing a lot moreretail, definitely presenting
financing options right out thegate, and that's one thing.
And I'm also seeing a lot of ofa lot of older roofing, older
(57:46):
roofers, older getting out ofthe business, um, and a lot of
you know these, these newstartups, young bucks, getting
in kind of rebel, without aclues type.
You know they, they, they, they.
It's gold rush.
You know the roofer rush, youknow that that.
That, see it, they want to getin.
They don't really know whatthey're doing, they're fast
talkers and uh, so I'm, so I'mseeing that shift.
(58:08):
You've got this dichotomy ofthe older, quality, slow-talking
roofers that will just get toyou if we get to you We'll see
how the day goes versus theseguys that are spinning around in
circles and will not get there.
So I'm seeing that in thebusiness landscape and then in
the insurance landscape, um, andthen the insurance landscape, I
(58:30):
see it turning more retail andfinancing, uh, leading, leading
the way there how are you guys?
Speaker 1 (58:36):
how, what's your?
What's your thoughts onadapting to all of the changes
that are happening?
Speaker 2 (58:42):
you know, um, we're just, we're just, we're just
doing Shamrock nation way.
It's blue, blue ocean strategy,is, is, is my philosophy and
we're going to continue to growas we grow.
We're going to train as wetrain.
You know, I used to say, ifit's raining, we're training.
Now, we train every day.
(59:03):
Um, we're constantly trainingand we're constantly recruiting
and we're bringing in qualityguys.
I'm bringing a lot of these.
You know we talked about thegold rush guys that want to get
in and start their own business.
They realize that they can makemore money being a project
manager for a good company.
So we're seeing that a lotcoming on.
Just, they can make more moneyrunning jobs.
(59:25):
So that's how Shamrock is doingit, running jobs.
So that's how Shamrock is doingit.
We're just being the stable,sure-footed, tried and true, you
know, player in the game andjust stable, just steady as it
goes.
That's how we're handling it.
Speaker 1 (59:43):
That's awesome, man Garen.
It's been a pleasure.
This has been another episodeof the Roofing Success Podcast.
Thank you for tuning into theRoofing Success Podcast.
For more valuable content,visit roofingsuccesspodcastcom
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(01:00:04):
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The website link is in thedescription.
(01:00:24):
Thanks for listening.
Imagine everything you've worked for being wiped
out overnight.
Garen Armstrong is facing downregulators trying to inhibit
roofing contractors from doingbusiness, and he's here to show
you how to fight back and win.
In this episode, garen shareshis bold fight for contractor
rights, how he's scalingShamrock Roofing with precision
(00:22):
and the lessons he's learnedfrom navigating one of the
toughest markets in the country.
Garen Armstrong is a fearlessleader behind Shamrock Roofing,
a multi-million dollar roofingcompany built on grit, growth
and standing up for what's right.
Garen's story is a rallying cryfor contractors everywhere.
From battling unfair policiesin Iowa to leading a team that's
(00:45):
reshaping the roofing landscape, garen's mission is clear
Protect contractors, supportcommunities and never back down
from a challenge.
This episode is more than justa business story.
It's a movement.
Whether you're looking to growyour business, fight for your
rights or learn from a truetrailblazer, garen's insights
(01:05):
are unmissable.
Let's get started.
Welcome to the Roofing SuccessPodcast.
I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here tobring you insights from top
leaders in the roofing industryto help you grow and scale your
roofing business.
Shamrock Roofing is in thehouse.
Garen Armstrong, how are you,brother?
Hey, I'm great.
It's good to be here.
(01:26):
How are you doing?
It is man, it's been a couple ofyears since we chatted, I think
you, I love your story.
I love your story of overcomingadversity, the health issues
you had, how your team steppedup.
We talked about that on thelast podcast years ago and
(01:49):
wanted to have you back because,man, you just have continued to
grow and expand and it's beenamazing to watch and I think
it's a lot of fun, man.
Another thing you're gettinginto it with with with with
government officials.
Now you're, you're, you'regetting in the ring with with
(02:11):
with in the courts.
I'd love to talk to you alittle bit about that.
Let's start with that.
Man, from all the things you'vetold me, iowa has been kind of
getting to be a very treacherousplace for contractors in terms
(02:32):
of OOPA laws.
Talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, so the IID, the Iowa Insurance Department, has
been sending out cease anddesist orders to multiple
contractors, just puttingfamily-owned and operated
businesses out of work, andhired a police officer cop to
(02:59):
set up snitch lines and set up atrap house to call contractors
and have them come out to thehouse.
They had a little hurricanemicroburst up there that came
that, and so they had a houseover by there and they'd call
people out and if they broughtup the process, they said, hey,
you know, you don't need to filea claim, your roof is good.
(03:19):
You know, boom, they send thema cease and assist.
You know, if a contractor heardabout another contractor, they
would call on another contractor.
And you know, this roof isbrutal, right, you got, you got
contractors.
It's very cutthroat, and so youknow if their, if their
intention was to help thehomeowner, they wouldn't be
going at and gutting thecontractors and putting them out
(03:41):
of business.
And so they sent me a warningletter and I said my attorney
sent them back and asked themwhat are we doing?
What are you wrong?
They go, they list two pages, alist of this very vague stuff,
of some of these things thataren't even laws, they're not
even on the books, right, and soone of them was someone gave us
(04:01):
a five-star review on Googleand it said Caden did a great
job, he held me throughout theprocess, so they used the word
process in there, and so it wasjust a long laundry list of
things and I said you know, wecan't even talk, we can't even
breathe, can't even mark it, andso it's like a, so immediately
(04:22):
I just sued them in federalcourt.
It's like a, so immediately Ijust sued them in federal court.
I said let's, let's, let's,let's, let's, let the federal
judge, judges say what it is wecan and can't say versus the
Iowa insurance department,because they, they, they're,
they're, there's ways to do thisright.
Like I'm in 16 markets and nineStates, and this is the only
(04:43):
state that's this egregious onhow we work right, and so I'm
happy and I've got staterepresentatives in Iowa that
agree with me.
This is way heavy handed.
It's very wrong because of theamount of business that all
these roofers provide.
I mean, we're buying shingles,we're buying marketing, we're
(05:06):
hiring subcontractors, we'redoing all the things right, and
so it's a very unfriendlybusiness situation.
And in addition to that,where's the consumer protection
advocacy at right?
Because if they're under theattorney general, then then then
there's the insurancedepartment.
(05:27):
They're just lapdogs for theinsurance agencies that are
lobbying them to not pay theclaims out, because the consumer
protection agency should beprotecting them.
And the reason I did this isreally it's about the passion
that I have for, time and timeagain, the elderly, the elderly
80-year-old.
They pay their claims yearafter year and they're getting
(05:50):
denied.
They're on a fixed income andyou see their eyes start welling
up and then the roof iscompletely wrecked.
And yet I'm the first line ofdefense.
They don't even know what apublic adjuster is.
They don't know who's a publicadjuster, they don't know how to
.
Who's a public adjuster, firstand foremost?
So they call a roofer and thenwe come out there and start to
(06:12):
explain it.
But if you start to explain it,then boom, they put you out of
business.
Well, you know so.
And on top of that, a publicadjuster will only take the
claim if it's $50,000 or more,and the average claim is we do
is $17,000.
And so it's been I think toyour point.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
There is people don't call public adjusters to like
that's not their first call.
Really, their first call is toa contractor or to their
insurance agent, right Likethat's who they're calling first
.
And if you're calling yourinsurance agent, you know that
route, right Like there's youknow and then you know.
So having that, having you knowdifferent eyes on it, here's
what's crazy to me, because itlike it's like a sting operation
(06:57):
is what you're talking about,and this is where it's really
concerning, because you knowit's.
They're setting up housesinviting contractors to come in
and inspect a roof and thenhitting them with the cease and
desist because of anything thatthey've said at the like it's,
(07:20):
it's, it's.
That's crazy, man, like I meanthe, the phone line and things
like that is crazy too.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
But to actually set up like a sting operation to see
if someone's talking about aninsurance policy, to see if a
contractor is talking about aninsurance policy, yeah, wow,
like that, that's amazing, likethat's crazy, it's very
egregious and that's kind ofwhen you know you have, you have
(07:47):
to stand up, you know, and andand that's why I said you know,
okay, this is, I'm not going tofile this in in in in Iowa state
so it can sit there and spinaround in circles, because I'm
friendly with the state, I'mfriendly with the.
I mean, I do business, you know, I hire people from iowa.
I'm there, I'm not like wantingto go out of the state, but the
federal officials like.
(08:08):
So who's overseeing the, the,the, the head of the insurance
department of labor there,insurance department, sorry.
So like, because, like it's thesame, it's attorney general and
the attorney general isoverseeing the consumer
protection agency.
So yeah, but I guess nobody'slobbying the insurance or the
consumer protection agency.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
No one's lobbying on that side.
Yeah, no one's lobbying fromthe consumer side.
Yeah, and, man, it would beinteresting to know how this
came to be right, Like I wouldlike you know.
Maybe you'll get to kind offind some of that out as you go
through your case.
But you know, how did?
How did they?
(08:47):
How did they say, man, we needto crack down on this.
This is a problem big enoughwhere we're going to hire, you
know, a head of this department.
We're going to go and do thesesting operations and set up like
it's.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
So I wonder where that came from.
So I'll tell you.
I'll tell you.
So the reinsurance market hasgone up.
So insurance companies havereinsurance, right, and
reinsurance premiums have goneup nationwide from the storms
everywhere, right, yeah, and,and so they're.
Everyone's premiums have goneup significantly, right, and
(09:28):
they're, and you know, and theycall, they have these cat storms
, catastrophe storms, and thenthey call these little hail
storms, you know, they callkitty cat storms, right, and so
they're saying this all thesekitty cat storms are are adding
up right, and, and so they thinkthat you know we're responsible
for the storms that arehappening, when the only thing
(09:50):
we're responsible for isanswering a phone call or, you
know, going out there to go helpa homeowner with the roof.
That's again, our averageticket item is $16,000 to
$17,000.
So, at which, you know, thepublic adjusters don't even come
down and grab because it's notthere, and I think only 5% or
(10:15):
less than 5% of people even knowwhat a public adjuster is or
even how to get one If theywould accept that case in the
first place, accept that case inthe first place.
And so there's this whole marketof the 85% of people or more
that need help and, um, you knowthat's the solution is.
(10:35):
The solution is want they needpast testing for a lot for to be
a general contractor or get aroofing license there.
They need to have moreinsurance.
They need to raise the bar forpeople to be able to get in in
the roof in Iowa.
There's a whole lot of thingsthat can do different and I'm
happy, you know that's why I gotthe state representatives talk
to him about it, because Iwasn't going to go talk to Doug
(10:56):
Oman about it.
Who's the guy who was appointedby the?
You know he's about to retire.
Like, just go ahead and retireearly, because I know this case
is going to take some time.
I'm not letting off.
So, and the copy hired, I gottheir names too.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
But yeah, man, that's it, that's.
That's such a tough one.
Is they looked at language, notonly on your website about your
company and what you guys do,but looking at those Google
reviews, this is something thatyou know like.
(11:38):
It's a homeowner, it's acustomer, someone you know
writing this.
It's not you guys writing it.
It's a customer, or someone youknow writing this.
It's not you guys writing it.
It's not even that's.
That is another egregious thingto write like how, how, how far
reaching and how much are theylike the type of digging that
they're actually doing into,into this?
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Like right, it's, it's, it's, it's over the top
and and and it's not onlyviolating my freedom of speech,
but, I have you know, it'sviolating other people's freedom
of speech about me.
So now somebody can't say thatI've done a good job, you know.
So it's like when's that goingto stop?
(12:20):
Like, you know, how do wechange it?
And so you know, that's why thefederal court is the proper
venue and jurisdiction for this.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Well, you know, keep the industry updated on how
things are going.
Man, that's a, you know, get.
There's a lot of people I knowa lot of good roofers in Iowa
that I could connect you withtoo and make sure you guys are,
all you know, kind of alignedand moving in the right
direction.
And having the having acohesive voice Cause it, man,
that this type of stuff is crazy.
(12:50):
I know, I know, I know RolandBrown had to deal with this down
in Texas.
You know and, and, and, and andhad a had a struggle.
It didn't end as in in the waythat that that it that it
probably should have for roofingcontractors, right that's right
.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
You know he filed it in state court and Supreme Court
.
You know that's where we wentstraight to the federal court.
And also, you know there's alot of good roofing contractors
in Iowa and there's a lot ofgood public adjusters, right.
(13:47):
But when NAPIA NationalAssociation of Public Adjusters
are consistently praising theIID for their work, and then
TAPIA and NAPIA wrote an amicusbrief to the state regarding
against Stonewater, that's whenyou know I'll use public
adjusters who aren't associatedwith napia or tapia.
I mean, they poisoned the wellthey really did.
You know they want to live offthe backs.
They want to market to publiccontractors like me, because,
again, nobody knows what apublic adjuster is, and yet then
they want to stab us in theback at the same time.
(14:07):
Yeah it's.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
It's crazy, man.
There's a self-interest, is a,is a is a strange thing, right,
and it comes from all facets.
It's the self-interest of thepublic adjusters, but the the
self-interest of governmentagencies, right, adjusters, but
the self-interest of governmentagencies, right, they feel like
they always have to do more andalways have to.
You know, hopefully we get somechanges in that here in the
(14:32):
next few years.
Yes, looking forward to that.
Yeah, hopefully, man it's, youknow, because it could get crazy
, or it already is crazy, italready is crazy.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
And even if this case , you know, puts them back on
their heels and say, hey, hey,we're forcing this way too hard,
we need to step back in ourlane, we need to readjust how
we're talking.
You know going after people, or, you know, get their alignments
in place, I'd be happy to say,hey, dude, this, what works up
(15:04):
in my other eight States thatI'm in, you know you're
licensing your insurance, orthis, you're this, you're this,
you know to to weed out a lot ofthe bad contractors, right,
yeah, that's, that's what you,that's all they have to do, and
it's a revenue source, becausethen they're paying to be a part
of it.
They're paying.
(15:26):
You know all these things,things so it even helps the
state.
But, um, now that I got theirattention then I'll be happy to
sit down with them and and goover how we can help, uh, fix
the situation.
I mean, if they weren't settingup, you know, sting operations
and stuff, then then maybe Iwould have been gone about a
little different, but they did,yeah, it was a very like that.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
That, like you said, that's a very egregious thing,
man.
Like Like that's reallycrossing some lines there.
You know, like it's a it's likewhat are you like?
It's like they do that toliquor stores and you know like
they send underage people intoliquor stores.
They do like that's the type ofstuff, like that's.
It seems like it's for it'smuch more for outside of of of
(16:03):
what we do on a regular basisright, this is this yeah, this,
this is crazy man, right like so, so.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
So it's like a felony , it's not.
You know it's a fine, butthey're putting people's
livelihood out of businesscompletely, and the
subcontractors and there's awhole, and and the manufacturers
who's buying from them.
The whole impact that they'redoing to hurt the ecosystem and
the economy there in Iowa.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Let's talk about it a little bit on a broader scale,
because you do operate in eightstates, right?
How do you navigate the kind ofthe differences in regulation
from all of the jurisdictionsthat you work in?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
So a lot of attorneys , national attorneys, so that's
one thing.
But you know, obviously we havea large back office and you
know we study the states, whatthey are, the municipal, the
codes in each state.
You know what the licenses looklike and the municipalities and
(17:10):
then, um, you know, adhere tothose.
So you know.
For you know, I just got backfrom Colorado, had to take the
Pikes Peak Class A GeneralContractors Exam.
I've already had a Class AGeneral Contractors exam for
eight years, but they wantedtheir very own.
So you know I had to go outthere to do that.
(17:34):
And of course, you know theinsurance requirements and
things like that, which it'sjust something that separates
the wheat from the shaft, right,and so I'm happy to do it.
That's what Shamrock represents, you know, and we over-insure
our you know so that and ourquality of work.
(17:54):
So, but when we're dealing with, you know, it's nine states and
16 locations we definitely havea great back office looking at,
you know, pulling the permits,working on everything and
working on that.
So it's not an easy feat.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
You know how have you structured that?
You know, do you have?
How have you structured it fromoperationally?
You know, do you have a centrallocation for a lot of things?
And then you know you have yourlocal stuff.
How, how would?
I think it's interesting topeople who are looking to grow
right like you know, man, wecould, you know we could, we
could go and set up a shop thereand they could be completely
(18:32):
independent and and runeverything there.
What maybe some of you knowwhat?
How have you structured it andwhat efficiencies have you found
in in the way that you'vestructured it?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
So we structured it with the hub and smoke model to
where we have HQ in Kansas city,and then all of our branches
are, you know, they started outgoing, you know, three hours
away, you know.
So we went up North, you know,omaha Lincoln, des Moines, and
then started going, you know,and then the seasonality of
roofing started to hurt usreally bad in the wintertime.
(19:05):
And so then then we startedgoing down to the Southern
markets um to keep the to, tolevel out the seasonality uh,
still a real thing, but um, sothen that's what we did, and
then what we, we, we stayedthere for quite some time while
we figured it out, and the waywe did that was having the, the
um, the headquarters there,pulling permits, you know.
(19:28):
So we have everybody togetherin, you know, in an office, two
offices actually 27,000 squarefeet, but uh, that are working
together, that's able toleverage other people's
knowledge in the office, so thatin a branch we have an office
(19:48):
manager, a branch manager in,basically, field trainers that
are, that are out with the guys,you know, as well as quality
control, and then so that's howwe set up each market and then,
once we got that figured out,from the three-hour radius of
the Shamrock Nation.
Then we were able to start, youknow, daaining locations
(20:10):
further um, and you know that'sbeen our, our, so, so we're down
all the way down in in houstonnow, we're all the way over into
into colorado springs, denvernow, and up to, uh, south dakota
.
So, but you know, and the goalis to move up to the quad cities
(20:31):
in Iowa, cause I really, reallylove the people in Iowa.
What I love working in theheartland is, you know, a
handshake still means something,and that's, you know.
I like to say that I'mbrilliant and I planned this.
I'm just born and raised fromhere, you know, and so we've
been.
I've always had storms grew upin it and um and so, so anyway,
(20:53):
so that's why I, you know, Iwrote the people of Iowa.
I mean, that's what I reallylike working there.
And then so, when they did that, I'm like, look man, this is
not right.
And so that's also what ledinto that.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
But yeah, yeah for sure.
Now, as you're growing frommarket to market, let's talk
about what you're thinking about, like and and you know what
you're thinking about now notone of not some of those first
ones, right like, because I'msure some of the first ones was
like oh, it's a three-hour drive, there's a storm there.
Let's go right like that's,that's how, and maybe that's not
(21:23):
how it happened, but that's howit usually happens, right like.
Yeah, um it from a strategicaspect now, because now it
sounds like, I mean, now, at thesize you guys are at, there's
some strategy, right?
So?
when you're looking at yourexpansion.
You know, talk me through whatyou know, your kind of what
you're thinking, how you'relooking at the market, the team,
(21:47):
what you're going to need interms of you know, from a team
side of things, from alogistical side of things, what
are you, what do you?
Walk me through that.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
So I'm looking at the market demographics of where
I'm going to go first.
So if I'm, because I've gone toI've opened up, all of my
offices are brick and mortar, soI've opened up brick and mortar
in some locations that aresmaller and the way I market we
have a 600-time chance ofwinning the market, gaining the
(22:22):
market share, and so there'ssome smaller, sub-secondary
markets that we can just gothrough so quick and I've got to
dial back my marketing smaller,you know, sub-secondary markets
so we can just go through soquick, right, and I gotta dial
back my marketing.
So I'm looking for biggermarkets, older homes or bigger
markets that are that aregrowing, expanding, and then
then I'm going in there.
You know, obviously in my areawhere I live, you know,
(22:45):
throughout the midwest, it'snatural storms every year.
So it's storms are seasonal innature, reoccurring in nature.
So I'm looking for, you know,the population of the
demographics to go in there onand and to be able to support
the markets.
And then immediately I'm, I'm,I'm buying a location that has a
(23:06):
utility, a flex space that I'mable to put, you know, shingles,
my material, put my trailers,my trucks, you know, and
immediately I'm moving in withfive to 10 trucks.
I'm opening it up, I'mrecruiting.
I've already I've been doinginternet marketing at that point
, that location, three monthsprior.
(23:26):
You know so I'm alreadymarinating the market.
They know I'm coming, they seeit.
You know, most of the time wehave leads coming in there, you
know.
So the recruiting knows we'recoming there and so, um, that's
how we we move.
So, like, if my competitorsstart seeing recruiting ads,
start seeing a marketing, youknow they.
(23:47):
You know they can start to.
You're coming, gary's coming,they can start to.
You know.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
You're coming, gary's coming, he's going to be here
soon.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
I love that and this is, you know, it's the struggles
early on and it's the benefitsof size is that you can allocate
resources in that directionwithout needing the return on
investment to be soinstantaneous, right.
And so when you're smaller andyou don't have huge budgets and
(24:22):
you don't have the opportunityto do this, hey, all right, for
three months we're going to go,like, if you're going into a
market, let's just you know, ina range of that first three
months from a recruitingmarketing for recruiting and
marketing that you're going to,that you're entering the market,
what kind of range of a budgetwould you put on that three
(24:45):
month period?
Month period for someone who'sstarting up?
Or for me, for you like to goin and and and like, because I
like to see people, I wantpeople to understand the, the,
the differences, right, likethat, that you know because it,
(25:05):
when you actually understandmarketing, as as the way that
you guys do, you know youunderstand what it takes and
sometimes it takes a lot right.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, so just on marketing, not for recruiting,
just for marketing.
I'm spending $20,000 a month inDenver right now and that's
just.
You know all things.
That's OTT, that's internet,that's you know everything.
But I'm going there and youknow, plus recruiting budgets,
(25:42):
plus you're buying your trucks,plus the insurance in Colorado
is a lot more expensive.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So there's a big initial investment right when
you're going there.
But, you know, I one of my theway I like to put it, garen is
if you have faith in the outcome, you'll execute.
Right.
So, like you guys have havecreated faith in the outcome
through the actions that you'vedone through the years.
So you know, man, we're goingto do this and we know the
outcome that we're going to getto.
Now that outcome may vary,right, you've been to markets
(26:14):
where the outcome is varied, andyou know.
But and I don't know if you'veever had a market that you're
like, yeah, that didn't work outfor us and you pulled back out
of yes, I have DFW.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
We went in from Tulsa down into Plano.
We marketed hard, we got a lotof leads.
You got to be ready.
It's so big, it's so expanding,but they get so many storms
that they'll wait two years orthree to replace their roof.
They won't go right away andand and on top of that it's you
(26:53):
know they, those suppliersthey'll sell a billion dollars a
year in material and thatmarket is so saturated.
That is a broken market.
I mean, if you want to be in DFW, go retail, a hundred percent
retail, and you gotta, you gottaseparate yourself from the rest
because there's no licenses.
Anybody can be a roofer.
(27:14):
And so, first thing, I'm a partof RCAD.
I'd love to change thelegislation in Texas to where
you have to be licensed.
You have to because there's somuch.
I mean, that's another statethat I would like to help you
know in as well like, instead of, you know, going out using
these upa laws to get rid ofcontractors, just raise the bar
(27:35):
for contractors, have them belicensed, have them have
insurance, have them have thesethings, and that's going to weed
out so many people, and thenyou'll get more quality of work,
because there's so much shoddywork down there.
It's just bad, but anyway, it'sjust with all the other markets
that I'm in.
It wasn't worth the worth worthit.
I mean, I'm still there, right,like we still have a presence
(27:56):
there.
We still roof there.
You call them, we'll go toretail work.
It's all retail, um, but it'sit's, you know it's.
It's a cheaper, everything's.
You know you're not gettingpaid as much for your roof.
It takes longer.
They, the homeowners, have beenconditioned over the years.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
You mean?
Speaker 2 (28:17):
so if I go with you for your roof, I don't get in
this drawing for the shotgun andthis trip and you're like
shotgun, who's offering ashotgun and a trip?
If I go for you, right, likethey have stacks of flyers, you
know when you go through theneighborhoods so and they've
been told you know so manydifferent things.
I mean they see you coming upthe driveway.
(28:38):
They're like ha ha, we got onethat's right.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, how, uh, so?
So we're okay.
Let's go back a little bit.
We're going in, going into amarket.
You're going to have a budget,so you know, $60,000 for
marketing for the first threemonths.
You've got another recruitingbudget, five trucks, You're
renting a flex space.
One of the things that I wantto go into a little bit with you
how much material.
(29:08):
I think we talked about thislast time on the podcast too
that you buy and manage your owninventory for material right.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yes, so we have our own warehouse and our own supply
company which we buy.
You know, 30 trucks at a timedelivered.
You know we're the secondlargest IKO purchaser in the
country, so you know we buy themin bulk.
(29:40):
You know IKO and CertainTeed iswhat we go with, and you know
just, certainteed has a niceluxury line and IKO has.
You know, shingles have reallybeen been impressive and and the
and their reps, the national,the reps, have been great to
work with as well, because eventhough each market we're in,
(30:03):
it's still a personal business.
You know, and even from fromthe top line of dealing with.
You know SRS, beacon, abc.
You know, while I'm greatfriends with the national
account sales people it's thebranch down in northwest
Arkansas Well, they may not beup to snuff with what so-and-so
(30:28):
is telling them to do and how totreat.
You know shamrock and that typeof thing.
It's kind of a good old boynetwork still, you know.
So, which is fine, you know.
But then we go in there.
You know we shake their hand.
Hey, this is what we do, thisis how we do it, this is what to
expect.
But to get back to your point,yeah, we so here.
You know we buy in bulk.
(30:49):
You know, cause, it's no secret, every quarter there's a 15%
raise in shingle prices.
So we buy in bulk and and, andthen we're able to then and
we've got our own conveyortrucks or own, you know
everything.
So we're, you know, throughout.
You know, throughout thegreater metropolitan area.
You know we're delivering allof our own.
(31:10):
And you know what happened.
You know, I learned this in2020, when shingles you couldn't
get shingles and as a roofer,if you can't get shingles,
you're out of business and so wejust started buying them.
Buying, you know, slowly, itwas just a little bit, so that
we'd had some if it ever got tothat bad again.
You know, I mean, and still,right now, everyone's on
(31:33):
allocation.
We just have orders in, so whenthe, the plant has them, we are
already set to get so manytrucks from that, because, I
mean, we're still in allocationfrom all the storms down in, in,
you know, florida, northcarolina, um, and all that, so
um, and then the hurricanebarrel that hit houston.
So there's just a lot of youknow there's a lot of material
(31:57):
going out.
I know there's a lot of ofthoughts like, oh no, people are
storing shingles and they'reraising the prices on purpose.
And I'm like, are you not likelooking at what's going on in
the storms?
You know people are goingthrough them like I don't,
there's no plan.
That's like storing shingles.
If there is, then I, I, youknow, surprised me, they shocked
(32:17):
me.
But yeah, um, you know it'sreally a supply and demand
situation and, uh, that's whatwe're dealing with.
So that's why I buy them andstock up with them.
And then you go, as as whenyou're in nine States and you're
at 16 markets, you, you, youcan't.
I mean I, I, you'll be friendswith all of them ABC, beacon,
(32:37):
srs, like you know, a lot ofpeople were like I'm not ever
using ABC again because X, y, z,I'm not ever using Beacon again
because of you know ABC.
So, and I'm like no, you, you,you, you know, you got to play
nice with all of them and andyou can't be in love with just
one manufacturer.
And you know, and same with ourNorthern markets.
(33:00):
I mean, we use them a lot ofmalarkey too up North.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
But so, yeah, so it started as man, let's get, let's
have things in stock so we cancontinue to work.
That was the original.
If I'm hearing you right, thatwas the original intention for
buying materials in bulk, mainlyshingles and things like that
right?
But how has that changed?
(33:24):
Because I know a lot ofcontractors now that are very
strategically buying theirmaterials Maybe it's not
shingles, maybe they're buyingall their underlayment or their
pipe boots it doesn't have tojust be shingles but they're
buying materials in bulk anddoing inventory management more
(33:46):
on a basis of of it's foradditional profitability, right,
like they're taking on.
You know how has that impactedyour profitability in?
You know you know it startedoff with hey, we need to be able
to work.
You know how have you been ableto, you know, improve or or how
has it impacted yourprofitability now over the last
(34:09):
few years that you've been doingit?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
So it has impacted the profitability.
But remember, I mean, eachtrailer is a quarter million
dollars.
You know a conveyor is aquarter million dollars.
You know, and if you're buying,you know underlayment and
you're felt and you know you'resaving some money, that's great.
But then you know you've got tomake sure you got you're out
there on that job and you'refelt and you know you're saving
some money, that's great.
(34:31):
But then you know you've got tomake sure you got you're out
there on that job and you got tomake sure that it's not short
and you got to make sure thatit's, it's there.
So you, you, you, you reallyneed to be careful about that,
you know.
And so, um, we there was a lotof of of learn business,
learning lessons, that I thatI'll call them that I that I've
paid for, uh, to get here, um,and there's been some months
(34:52):
that have not been profitable,um, from that you know.
And so when you're paying for alot of of of equipment, um, but
I think you know, as people arebuying underlayment, you know
that's great, you know they canget their own marketing, their
own, you know, personalized.
You know underlayment, you knowthat's that's, that's great.
(35:15):
But you know there's, there's.
There's more to it than that.
You know, when I'm looking atit I'm like you know what about
a box of nails?
Can I, how much can I?
Can I get some?
You know, nails to what's?
You know, if I'm gettingsomething, I want to of it.
So, and I'm putting a ordertogether for a home.
I've got it all together, youknow, ready, ready to go, yeah,
and so now you know we getpallets ready for each you know
(35:36):
house that we're going out for,and then it's wrapped up and
it's ready to go, shrink,wrapped and ready for for there.
Ready for come, pick it up.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Right, come in, pick it up like load the trailer and
you know you guys are on yourway and so that's a whole nother
.
It's almost like you have to.
It's a whole nother.
Business within your business,right?
Like there's a team that needsto be put in place, especially
if you're doing it at scale.
What were some of the keylessons you learned from that
(36:08):
aspect?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Yeah.
So starting out, I mean you'restepping over dollars to pick up
pennies.
Starting out, you're doing thatLike, yes, you're saving some
money on underlayment, yes,you're saving some money on this
.
But then you realize your timeand that you're spending to get
all the material together, toget it out.
There is opportunity cost fromyou going out there and taking
(36:31):
care of another homeowner, andso that was the first lesson I
learned, but it was out ofnecessity.
It was in 2020, when everythingwas on allocation, and it did
hurt the profitability from theoperational cost.
Well, yet you were able to makesome bump in your margin from
(36:52):
material.
You're losing out on volume.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Yep, it's a balance right, like there's always a.
Everyone wants easy buttons,right, and that's what I'm
trying to point out is there'snot an easy button to this.
But, you know, like, if you doit effectively, if you can
manage your, manage inventoryand your materials effectively,
(37:22):
there's a lot of benefits to it,but you have to do it
effectively.
It's not just, hey, we just,you know, we a you know, we just
ordered this and we're going towrite the check and
everything's going to be great,like, right, right.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Like, look, I just say $5,000.
Well, yeah, you're going to bespending your time on that and
you could have been sold twomore roofs, that's right.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
That's right, exactly .
Speaker 2 (37:46):
All right, I'm going to talk go into?
Speaker 1 (37:48):
yeah, go for it.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Oh, I was saying about the easy button.
You know, that was kind ofbrought us up to uh, what we was
talking about earlier.
You know, when there's so muchinformation out there and people
want to pick your brain or havea lunch or or versus kind of
digging into what's this, your251st podcast?
You know?
Yeah, there's so much knowledgethat you put out there already,
(38:12):
you know, and others, that'sthat's free for people to listen
and learn from, but they watchand listen yeah, for people
listening, we're chattingoffline a little bit about you
know.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
People will approach garen a lot about you know and
have a lot of questions aboutyou know, helping, and he's
always really open to share.
But it gets to a point whereit's like, man, we, you know,
everyone out there there is likeyou got to execute Right, like
the way that I put it, garen,let me get your thoughts on this
.
Like for me, I think peoplespend too much time on process
(38:47):
in the beginning.
Yes, and I think that theyspend too much time on process
and not selling, and if you'renot selling anything, you don't
know how to.
You won't know how to to, to,to improve your processes
because there's nothing comingthrough Right.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
I think you hit the nail on the head because every
single time I hear this process,process eos, process eos I'm
like.
You know how many times myprocesses have changed as we've
expanded and changed over theyears, dealing with the
seasonalities and the storms andthe different situations that
come up from life and thebusiness changing.
I mean, I'm constantly innever-ending learning processes
(39:28):
myself.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Constant, and that's the thing what I love about EOS
is it creates an environment forsolving those problems on a
weekly, quarterly and annualbasis, right.
But what it does not marketitself as is the solution to
your problems going away.
It's just a framework to makesure you're solving your
(39:55):
problems in a specific way,right, Like identify, discuss
and solve and let's move onbecause there will always be
another problem.
And then, like you're dealingwith now, you're moving to a new
location, new state, newjurisdictions, new culture.
(40:17):
You know there's, there'sdifferent cultures.
Houston is a much differentplace culturally than Des Moines
, right?
Like there's, it's a you knowthe Midwest, the West, going out
to Denver and in differentplaces.
You know that there's always aproblem to solve and you have to
(40:38):
fall in love with solvingproblems because there will
always be problems.
So go out and create problemsfor yourself.
That's right.
How?
Speaker 2 (40:49):
about that, Like how about?
Speaker 1 (40:50):
that's the first thing we do in business.
Is we go out and create someproblems for ourselves, right?
Speaker 2 (40:55):
And those problems should be.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
The problem should be I've sold a job.
How can I now?
How can I build this job?
That's the first problem, right?
But the first problem is how doI sell a job?
Then it's how do I build a job?
Then it's how do I build a job?
Then it's how do I getefficient at building a job?
Then it's how do I get?
You know, how do I getefficient at selling jobs?
How do I get and?
Speaker 2 (41:17):
it's just, it's non-stop.
Yeah, it's bad things happenwhen you stop selling.
That's bottom line.
You got to keep selling andthat's it because I mean it's
challenging the efficiencieswill come.
The efficiencies will come overtime.
You know, yeah, but you, yougot to be selling the job.
Profitable jobs like I.
You know there's a lot of jobs.
I say it's not a shamrockclient, you know I'm not.
(41:39):
I'm not racing to the bottomfor a client.
You know if someone else has ajob and it's less than you know
percent you know 40 profitmargin have it go.
Let someone else.
You know percent you know 40%profit margin have it go.
Let someone else.
You know I'm not.
You know I don't want to armwrestle for each client Cause
there's a client down the streetthat has, you know, two kids in
(42:01):
soccer.
They don't.
They want, they want to bedealt with.
They don't want to worry aboutsaving, you know, whatever
percent of money they can justhave.
They know that Shamrock's there.
We've been around close to 50years.
They're going to take care ofit from A to Z.
They can go on and live theirlives.
If there's a problem with thewarranteeering, they can call us
(42:22):
.
We'll be out there to fix it.
And so you know the race to thebottom is a loser's game.
And my advice to everyonestarting up.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
don't get into it Definitely.
How do you like?
How do you price jobs to?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
maintain profitability.
So you know, basically, youknow there's where's my book at.
I have a little book here.
Steve Patrick talks about itquite a bit, but you know 40%.
You know it's Markup andOverhead.
I think it's called Markup andProfit, but it's 40% and so and
(43:03):
it's, you know, I think the guywho wrote it might be 90 years
old, but it rings true today.
So you know, I wish I had it's.
It rings true today.
So, um, um, and I wish I had it, I'd pull it out real quick and
show you, but it's, I thinkit's.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Let's mark up where I think people get, get a little
off right, like, is there, like,well, why do you need 40?
I, I think some people do this.
They they're like man, that'skind of, maybe that's ripping a
homeowner off or maybe that,like, a lot of people feel that
way, I, I don't like, but what I, what are the unexpected
expenses that you, that, thatthat you're building into that
(43:34):
right, like this is where Ithink, like, like there's a lot
of things that there's blindspots that people see in those
margins when they're talkingabout you know, you're talking
about your gross profit margins.
People have blinders to, youknow, to what goes into that
right.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Well, I mean your liability if you're putting a
warranty on that roof, if you'recarrying that liability, for
you know the craftsmanshipliability, your general
liability that you're paying foreverything.
You're paying to stay inbusiness.
That's why the average roofingcontractor is out of business.
In what three years?
(44:13):
They're not out in three years,they're out, and you know,
before 10.
So, because they don't make it,because they don't build enough
profitability in their jobs andthey even talk about it in the
book, really encourage it.
Um, maybe we'll put it upafterwards.
But, um, people think, well,I'll make it up on the next job,
I'll make it up on the next job.
You can't.
(44:34):
And it's a downward spiral andthen you're climbing, trying to
climb out of a hole, and so you,you got to have a profitability
on there, otherwise you're,you're going backwards and
what's the point of all of therisks that you're taking as an
entrepreneur?
I mean, it's already theseventh most dangerous
profession that we're in numberone.
No, you know so.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
So get paid yeah, and and and I think there's other
things.
That's why you know you talkand I know you guys.
You know because you're able togo into a market and market so
heavy and go after hiring andyou're able to make that
investment in the next market orin the markets that you're in,
(45:17):
because you have that right,because you have room for it.
There's room for that, there'sroom for good people, there's
room for paying for good people,right, like?
Speaker 2 (45:26):
you gotta have.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
All of that is like, is stuff that we don't look at
in those margins and um, so youhave your liability.
You have good people, you havegood marketing.
You have like you.
You have, then, created anenvironment where you can go and
buy product in bulk.
You've created an environmentlike but none of this comes from
(45:49):
shortchanging yourself right,you're always how'd you put it?
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Clean uniforms, clean job sites, clean trailers,
clean, you know, equipment.
Everyone's looking good,feeling good, you know, and
performing good, and qualitypeople are more expensive than
non-quality people, and while Iview myself as a great leader, I
might not be the best manager,you know.
So I have great managers that Ihire and they are great at
(46:19):
managing people.
I'm good at kicking openmarkets, so, and great managers
aren't cheap, that's right.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
They're not.
Let's talk about yourmanagement structure and your
expansion through through.
You know, as you've grown intothese other states, you know you
.
You told me that you guysreally recruit from within.
You build leaders and you moveto other markets with those
leaders.
Talk through that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
Yeah, so, you know, as we grow, we hire from within.
Culture is so important.
It's the glue that holdseverything together and Shamrock
Nation, and so we have thebranch manager and training that
we have that we're constantlytraining leaders.
So we're touching on leadershipskills, constantly training
(47:07):
them so that when an opportunityarises you know, because
they've been with us long enough, they know our culture, they
know we're going to open a newmarket and so they're able to.
You know, hey, hey, you know,put me in coach, I want to go
open up this new market.
That's, you know, two hoursaway.
Great, you're up, boom, let'sgo.
And so they're able to go thenbe a branch manager and then
(47:30):
start, man, you know, overseeingtheir crew.
We start recruiting for them.
They're getting, they'regetting paid more.
They're a manager now, whichcomes with a lot of
responsibility, because I have alot of liability, and so the
responsibility, in the wordalone, is the ability to respond
.
Know it's, you know theyhaven't earned their dues yet.
(48:12):
They how do I know?
This guy Especially retreads inthe roofing business, right?
Speaker 1 (48:18):
Yeah, it's it, that's a, that's a big thing.
So your culture is kind offiltering people.
They're like, well, we got it,you got it.
And so to put someone in amanager position and have people
read like that's a, that's atough one.
What makes, what makes a greatbranch manager for you guys?
What are some of the traits?
(48:38):
What are the outcomes thatthey're producing?
What makes a great branchmanager?
What?
Speaker 2 (48:42):
are their personality .
Speaker 1 (48:44):
What's their personality Like?
What is what do you?
How do you know, man, thisperson's going to be it right.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
It's consistency, it's loyalty, it's not prima
donna, it's giving a servantleader mindset.
It's somebody who puts othersabove themselves to see them
rise.
And so when they're stayinglate, to help a new guy learn,
(49:12):
to make the process, to put hisorders in right so that he can
make a good commission and hecan really get into this job.
Because you know, once peoplebecome a roofer, they're roofers
for life.
I mean, they love it and theystay in it.
But if they don't get in it andthey don't start making their
commissions and they're notgetting paid, then it's not for
them.
And so a servant leader's heartthat's going to be helping
(49:36):
others grow.
That's what I look for, andconsistency, yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
So that's the.
You're looking for leadership,not management in a way.
Right, like I think that I meanthey manage people, but they
have a that you guys have had inin in many markets, because
(50:11):
it's not the person that's goingthere has that man.
They, they're, it's intentional, it sounds like they're really
there and they have a, thatservant leadership mindset to
really grow.
Um, as you know, as as you're,as you're not every market in
(50:34):
your area.
You know cause you said what'dyou call it?
The?
The sham shamrock nation, right?
You're very heavy heavy in inmore like, like the Midwest and
things like that.
Not every market has the sameactivity every year.
How are you?
You know, are you able to, totake some of the team from Omaha
and and shoot them over to?
You know they cruise over toDes Moines or what.
(50:56):
You know what's the?
You know how does the, the, howdoes the ecosystem work from a,
from a, from a macro level toassist in?
You know, when there is the,the, when bigger opportunities
arise in the markets that you'rein, yeah, great question.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
So you know, throughout the heartland and
South Central where we're at.
I mean there's stormsseasonally but if, say, a storm
hits northwest Arkansas, we'reable to swarm it from.
You know, bringing the St Louisguys, some Kansas City guys
shifting Tulsa over, bringingLittle Rock up and hitting it
(51:33):
hard, and so that's how we'reable to do that.
That's one way.
The other way is we'veimplemented, we have a repair
program and the roofrejuvenations so that we're
consistently selling repairs.
I mean, we're brick and mortarin each place, so we're not
really storm chase, we're not.
(51:54):
We're not storm chasers if we,we are just located in storm
alley.
So we are the largest stormcatchers met in the nation,
that's for sure.
So shamrock nation is thelargest storm catchers met in
the nation, that's for sure.
So Shamrock Nation is thelargest stormcatcher's mitt in
the nation.
But we're brick and mortar andwe're there to do repairs and
roof rejuvenations and as well.
(52:15):
So but with that opportunity,from having so many locations,
you know we have a lot of youngbucks that are willing to like
hey, you know, put me in, coach,let's go down, I'm ready to go
down to OKC, all right, well,let's go.
And so you know we will, we'llput them up and, and then
(52:35):
they're there for for untilthey're ready to go back.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
Do you do that Like it's like, do you just kind of
put the word out to otherbranches?
Hey, that you know big, youknow we got a big opportunity
down in this market right now.
Is anyone interested in going?
Is that just as simple as that?
Speaker 2 (52:52):
Yeah, it's as simple as that and they make a work
trip out of it.
Usually we get an Airbnb and acouple of them and the guys are
on their way down, or gals.
We have a lot of gals that aredoing really, really great in
(53:16):
the industry Um, I love it, andum, and, and they're, they're on
their way down and they're,they're, they're, they're,
they're there for, for work andum, but uh, then they go back.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
The uh, one of the things that I hear from you from
a marketing perspective.
You guys do a lot of marketing,how you know.
I feel like, especially instorm markets, a lot of times
sales reps get attached to thenext door and they just focus on
the next door.
But when that phone call comesin and sometimes it's across
(53:47):
town, right, and that repdoesn't like leaving that little
honey hole that they're inknocking doors to get across
town you know how do you balancethat and how do you not create?
I guess another side of it ishow do you not create lead
babies out of you know, becauseof the marketing push that
(54:08):
you're doing, that they're still, that your reps are still like
in it and active and you know,going after business.
Speaker 2 (54:16):
Yeah, that's a that's a million dollar question right
there, and one that I've had tobalance out, because we do.
We have the lead babies thatthat are, that are great at
leads, and then you have theguys that they'll like turn me
off leads I don't even wantleads and they want to be out
there and and that's okay.
But I, even with that said, Idon't take lead babies, unless
(54:38):
and if they are, then they'rejust a W2 employee and and.
But what I would do is I rewardthe people who are out there in
the field hustling with theleads.
So if they hit a dry spot, youknow you knock so much doors,
right, so you're going to hitthe subdivision, you hit the
cul-de-sac, you got the six-pack.
But then you know then they'relike, okay, here's another lead.
(55:02):
They find another area Becausethey were working it so hard,
here's another lead.
So we do play favorites.
Speaker 1 (55:15):
If you're hustling, we're going to reward you with
positive behavior.
I love that because I thinkthat there shouldn't be equality
in lead distribution.
Right, yeah, like, why wouldyou give, especially when you're
spending marketing dollars?
Right, when you're investing alot of money in marketing and
you're giving it to your worstcloser man, like you're, what
(55:38):
are you doing there?
Right, like, you know, like yougotta be, you know, the people
that are executing on a highlevel should have priority in
some of these things.
Speaker 2 (55:47):
Man, I'm with you there, cause yeah, we're results
driven organization that wantto take care of our homeowners
at the best possible way.
So we continue to keep ourratings um and our service of
what we do.
And you know, I, I, I subscribeto a Jack Welch uh philosophy.
Like I'll cut the 20% right outthe gate, like look, if you're
(56:11):
not keeping up with the top,you're gone, you're off the team
.
I don't want you dragging mytop people down, and they will.
They'll drag you down, but theguys because the guys will try
to lift them up, keep liftingthem up, but just leverage in
natural will pull them down.
So if they're not out there,they're just on the team to be
(56:33):
part of, just to be a shamrock,or to come hang out to get the
free pizza, to get the freebreakfast we have at Saturday
sales meetings and all that jazz.
Like I'm not having it.
Like go find someplace else.
Yeah, I'll refer you to theroofer down the street.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
So it sounds like standards are the answer.
Standards right Like standardssounds like an answer to me to.
To kind of summarize what yousaid there, like having
standards and holding people tothem is a great way.
I want to kind of finalize thisout with with the.
You know you've been in thebusiness for a long time, you've
seen a lot of things, you'vehad your own struggles and and
(57:10):
know your peaks and valleys andthings like that.
What changes do you see comingin the industry and how are you
adapting to those changes?
Speaker 2 (57:21):
So you know, traditionally being in the
Hale-Swath area, I'm seeing abig insurance shift.
So we're doing a lot moreretail, definitely presenting
financing options right out thegate, and that's one thing.
And I'm also seeing a lot of ofa lot of older roofing, older
(57:46):
roofers, older getting out ofthe business, um, and a lot of
you know these, these newstartups, young bucks, getting
in kind of rebel, without aclues type.
You know they, they, they, they.
It's gold rush.
You know the roofer rush, youknow that that.
That, see it, they want to getin.
They don't really know whatthey're doing, they're fast
talkers and uh, so I'm, so I'mseeing that shift.
(58:08):
You've got this dichotomy ofthe older, quality, slow-talking
roofers that will just get toyou if we get to you We'll see
how the day goes versus theseguys that are spinning around in
circles and will not get there.
So I'm seeing that in thebusiness landscape and then in
the insurance landscape, um, andthen the insurance landscape, I
(58:30):
see it turning more retail andfinancing, uh, leading, leading
the way there how are you guys?
Speaker 1 (58:36):
how, what's your?
What's your thoughts onadapting to all of the changes
that are happening?
Speaker 2 (58:42):
you know, um, we're just, we're just, we're just
doing Shamrock nation way.
It's blue, blue ocean strategy,is, is, is my philosophy and
we're going to continue to growas we grow.
We're going to train as wetrain.
You know, I used to say, ifit's raining, we're training.
Now, we train every day.
(59:03):
Um, we're constantly trainingand we're constantly recruiting
and we're bringing in qualityguys.
I'm bringing a lot of these.
You know we talked about thegold rush guys that want to get
in and start their own business.
They realize that they can makemore money being a project
manager for a good company.
So we're seeing that a lotcoming on.
Just, they can make more moneyrunning jobs.
(59:25):
So that's how Shamrock is doingit, running jobs.
So that's how Shamrock is doingit.
We're just being the stable,sure-footed, tried and true, you
know, player in the game andjust stable, just steady as it
goes.
That's how we're handling it.
Speaker 1 (59:43):
That's awesome, man Garen.
It's been a pleasure.
This has been another episodeof the Roofing Success Podcast.
Thank you for tuning into theRoofing Success Podcast.
For more valuable content,visit roofingsuccesspodcastcom
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(01:00:04):
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