July 3, 2025 • 45 mins
🎙 In this episode of the RTO Superhero Podcast, Angela Connell-Richards and co-host Lauren Hollows tackle a confronting reality in Australia’s VET sector—how arbitrary funding decisions are crippling high-performing private RTOs.
Despite delivering 80% of Australia’s training, private RTOs receive just 30% of government funding. Even worse? RTOs with exceptional outcomes are being denied funding simply because their success happened in the “wrong” state.
🚨 What’s happening behind the scenes:
- 📉 Outstanding RTOs excluded from funding programs due to postcode politics
- 📊 “Mom and pop” RTOs pushed out by skyrocketing compliance costs
- 📈 One RTO slashed unit completion times from 400 to 84 days—just by using their own data better
Angela and Lauren unpack how this imbalance is reshaping Australia’s training landscape—and why it’s time to stop pitting TAFE vs. private RTOs and start building collaborative solutions.
✅ What you’ll learn in this episode:
- The real cost of underfunding private RTOs—and who’s paying for it
- Why compliance pressure is forcing quality providers out of the sector
- How data-driven management can dramatically improve performance
- What it will take to create a sustainable, student-focused training system
🎧 Tune in to hear what’s really happening—and how you can help fix it.
✍️ Support the cause: change.org/save_private_rtos
Join host Angela Connell-Richards as she opens each episode with a burst of insight and inspiration. Discover why compliance is your launchpad to success, not a limitation.
Connect with fellow RTO professionals in our free Facebook groups: the RTO Community and RTO Job Board. Visit rtosuperhero.au/groups to join today.
Ready to elevate your RTO? Join our Superhero Membership community and gain access to expert resources, training, and personalised support to help you thrive.
Wrap up with gratitude and guidance. Subscribe, leave a review, and join our community as we continue supporting your compliance journey in vocational education.
Thank you for tuning in to the RTO Superhero Podcast!
We’re excited to have you join us as we focus on the Revised Standards for RTOs in 2025. Together, we’ll explore key changes, compliance strategies, and actionable insights to help your RTO thrive under the new standards.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome back to the RTO Superhero Podcast, where
we're going to be covering allthings that are important right
now when it comes to thetraining industry, and, in
particular, right now is theissues that we have around
government funding aroundAustralia.
And I have with me co-hosttoday, lauren Hollows, who has
(00:26):
had many experiences in thisarea with her clients and what
she's heard within the industry.
So let's get to it, lauren.
Welcome to the RTO SuperheroPodcast and let's get started.
What's been your experience sofar with regards to government
funding around Australia?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, thank you for having me back.
Look, I mean, governmentfunding is such an interesting
space.
It's incredibly challenging forRTOs.
It requires so many additionalprocesses and forms and
knowledge of systems and thingslike that.
So, you know, hats off to anyRTO that manages multiple state
(01:06):
funding contracts, right, it'svery interesting to watch all of
the ebbs and flows that occurin our industry and you know,
like Queensland came up lastyear for funding.
So obviously we had a couple ofRTOs reaching out to us and
going, hey, can you help us puttogether these things?
So we started looking at allthe requirements and last year
(01:27):
in order to get through roundone, you had to have delivered
10 qualifications in that spacein Queensland in that
qualification in order to beable to apply.
So we had a couple of RTOs thatdidn't meet the requirements
and they were like, we'll put itforward anyway.
Um, we had one RTO thatdelivered, had delivered the
(01:49):
qualification in Queensland, um,and had multiple completions,
but it was for internationalstudents and so, um, you know
Queensland was like not eligibledoesn't count, right.
We had another client who haddelivered the same program in
far regional wa to a aboriginaland torstrait islander first
(02:13):
nations cohort.
They had 80 completion rates,right, huge completion rates for
job seeker cohorts, hugecompletion rates for regional
cohorts, and again, just didn'tcount.
Didn't count because it hadn'tbeen done in Queensland.
You know, vet DSS programs.
(02:33):
So vets delivered secondaryschool programs with 95%
completion rates, not interestedin, you know, not interested
because it wasn't delivered inQueensland.
We were like, yeah, but we wantto bring this to Queensland.
Like you can see, we can dothis and we can do this well,
and we get great completionoutcomes.
And it was like, not so much.
(02:54):
Wouldn't you like the sameresults?
Right, like if I'm an employerand someone's coming to me and
going okay, I want to look atwho I'm going to be giving out
my funding to.
Who am I going to pay for thisparticular service?
And I've got someone that comesto me and they go well, I've
delivered.
I've delivered.
You know, we got funded for ahundred places and we got 20
completions last year and nowI've got this guy that goes,
(03:17):
well, I got given a hundredplaces in WA and I completed 75%
of them.
Who am I going to pick?
Right, I'm going to pick thepeople that have got the good
outcomes and you'll be like well, there's obviously something
that you guys are doing there.
If you can replicate that here,then, absolutely like you're
going to get the better outcomes, you're going to give me better
bang for my buck, right?
(03:38):
What's?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
going on in these government departments when they
can't like entrepreneurs asentrepreneurs, we we go.
Yeah, I know exactly where Iwouldn't want to invest my money
what am I going to get for it?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
like, if I'm going to give everyone five thousand
dollars and someone's going togive me, you know, all of this,
and this one's going to be likeI'm going to give you this, but
I'm going to give you this, I'mgoing to be like I'm going to, I
want that right.
I'm going to be like I wantthat Right, and I think that's
that is.
The problem.
Is is like it's incredibly hardto set up a, you know, to set
up a government funded program.
And I know in our previousepisode we were talking about
(04:13):
like what does equitable fundinglook like?
And you know, I don't know ifit looks like, you know, school
choice, where we go, okay, well,every student gets $10, dollars
to go and spend on a vetqualification, right, and I
think we've seen in the past howthat can be rorted.
So I understand the challengesof setting up a government
(04:33):
funding program that is going tobe equitable, that is going to
be, you know, like nothing'srort proof, but like that is
going to have sufficientbarriers in place that we can
ensure quality and things ormaximize the chances of quality
and things like that.
But I think that you know,unfortunately, because there is
(04:56):
just a lack of understanding andbecause we don't seem to do
these things based on data andevery state is so adamant about
running things their own way asopposed to moving to any kind of
nationally harmonized system.
Um, you know it's, the dirtyword of um, of vet funding, is
that we unfortunately end up ina place whereby there's no
(05:21):
guarantees, um, and so what wedo see is we see a lot of like
I've got a lot of RTO owners intheir 60s that are just turning
around and going.
You know what?
It's all too hard.
It used to be that when theinternational market went feral,
right, we could rely ontraineeships and apprenticeships
.
Or when the traineeships andapprenticeships went feral, we
(05:43):
could rely on.
You know, like theinternational market, it feels
at the moment like there is justan assault and a lack of, just
a lack of, like, any sort ofbaseline across the board.
That I completely understandwhere RTOs come from, and
(06:03):
there's some amazing RTOs thatare out there that are now
literally just going.
We literally just can't rely onanyone or anything, and so we
have to and we have.
So, therefore, we have to beable to do it all Like we've got
to be able to have a bit of feefor service and a bit of
government funding across acouple of different places and a
bit of cry costs and stuff likethat, and that then causes an
(06:24):
RTO to really have like I meanto run an RTO that runs multiple
funding contracts,fee-for-service
institution-based programs,workplace programs and CRICOS.
Holy Hannah, it's hard, it's ahard work.
You've got to have a massivecompliance team and I think this
is why we're seeing a lot moreRTOs kind of come together and
so we're seeing, like you know,groups of RTOs that are
(06:48):
operating with like five or sixRTOs under like a parent company
, because it's just kind of likewe can't do all of this without
having some sort of writing youknow, yeah, a hundred percent.
Um, and I think we're going tocontinue to see a lot more of
that because, you know, for themom and pop RTOs that do some
(07:08):
really beautiful training, theamount of work that's associated
with maintaining compliance nowis just becoming to a point
where it's not feasible for thevast majority of mom and pop
RTOs to be able to continue tooperate in that manner.
You need to have a biggercompany that's going to sit, you
(07:28):
know, on top of you that'sgoing to be able to help.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
That's going to help you to manage that sort of thing
, particularly with the majorchanges that we have with the
new standards, in particular,when it comes to governance,
continuous improvement and riskmanagement.
When it comes to governance,continuous improvement and risk
management, there is a lot morework that's going to be involved
with managing that, and I cansee the reason why it's being
(07:55):
added to the standards, becauseit certainly will raise the
quality of education.
But these small RTOs, I don'tknow how they're going to cope
with all of the management ofthis, and that's why we're
trying to build a system that'sautomated.
So ComplyHub is a compliancemanagement system where it's
(08:16):
automated and it will be able toidentify risks based on the
data that you put into it.
So, yeah, I just think that's amajor one.
And then another side that cameup for me then when, whilst you
were talking, when it comes tohow do we support equitable
funding when it comes to TAFEand private RTOs?
(08:37):
Private RTOs currently deliver80% of the training, currently
deliver 80% of the training.
Tafe is 15%, so they deliver15% of the training.
Yes, the government mostprobably are wanting TAFE to
(08:58):
deliver more training, but theydon't have that capacity, they
don't have the infrastructure,and then so they're stating the
government's stating that itwill be 100,000 fee-free places
by 2027 each year, but we'realready seeing massive cuts to
private RTOs now Like thatfunding.
70% of that government fundingis now going to TAFE and they
(09:18):
don't have that infrastructure,whereas private RTOs already
have that infrastructure, theyalready have the outcomes and
they already have the completionratings.
That's where equitabilityshould go.
The equitable funding should goto those providers that have
the outcomes, they have thecompletion ratings and they have
(09:39):
the happiness outcomes.
So where students and employers, the outcomes that the RTOs are
getting, is based on that datathat we've received.
So, yeah, I definitely believethat that's where it should be
(09:59):
equitably.
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Yeah, and I mean for those that don't know, new South
Wales does actually track that.
Every year, you know fundedproviders get a report on the
satisfaction of the trainingthat they've delivered, which is
undertaken separately by NewSouth Wales government, and if
you receive a low rating, youhave to have a meeting with your
case manager and you have todiscuss the reason why you
(10:25):
received that.
And you know you kind of gettold well, you know you might
not get your funding contractnext year because you know your
student satisfaction outcomesare not where they need to be
and you know every state hasdifferent measures for that.
Like you know, wa has gotcompletion outcomes, like
they've got completionbenchmarks that RTOs are
(10:45):
supposed to meet, based oneither you know, or a
qualification level.
So you know again all of this.
Like different states have gotdifferent mechanisms for this
and you know, if the states everchose to come together and
actually have a discussion on,like, what aspects of their
funding worked and what aspectsdidn't, you know we could
definitely come up with a bettersystem.
(11:05):
I think one of the potentialsto change that is when we start
to see that, when we see our newAVATMIS system launch, which I
think is going to be coming outnext year.
We've got new AVATMIS datathat's going to be coming out.
As part of that, there is afive-year plan to have all
states harmonize their data,which is going look.
(11:27):
It's terrifying to me and it'sinteresting at the same time,
having worked particularly withWA for a very long period.
Every time we get a new statefunding system that launches, I
inevitably like inevitably myRTOs get screwed and like when
the new system launches, you'llget something that's like oh,
(11:48):
but this data has dropped out,so actually we're not going to
pay you this month and we oweyou, you owe us, you know, a
hundred thousand dollars and ittakes a couple of months to work
out all the bugs and likeeverything works out okay
eventually.
But anytime a new governmentsystem comes out, I have
visceral trauma Right.
So I'm super excited to seesome harmonisation of state data
(12:13):
because I'm hoping that thatwill actually lead to good
conversations happening betweenthe states and hopefully a
little bit more consistency.
I mean, queensland only paysupon completion.
Wa pays 70% upon commencementof a unit of competency.
New South Wales pays threepayments over the course of a
(12:34):
qualification, you know, forRTOs that have to navigate these
sorts of things and there'sactually not a lot of
consultants out there that do alot of work in the funding space
because it changes soconsistently and every system is
so different.
Like to try and find somebodywho knows how to lodge a smart
(12:55):
lodge on the smart and skillede-portal.
Um, you know, coordinate thelodgement between TAMS and you
know know in WA and you know,run your prerequisite numbers in
South Australia.
Like you know they don't.
They're just not out there.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
It's really hard for RTOs trying to find those people
, right, yeah yeah, We've helpedon a few different states, but
it's mainly individual on a fewdifferent states, but it's
mainly individual RTOs thatwe've been working with for a
long time, so we understandtheir RTO and their background.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
But, yeah, each time we look at a new funding it's
like, oh God, you've got torelearn everything, yeah, and
like there's so many different,you know like every single one
of them has different policiesand procedures.
They've all got differentrequirements for data reporting
and things like that.
So I think that trying to cometo some sort of I mean at a very
(13:53):
minimum agreement, getting thedata for it will be great.
Further to that, um, you know,like in an ideal world we would
start to get some consistency,like the amount of funding that
a qualification gets acrossstates.
How it can be three times aqualification in, you know,
south Australia as it is in, youknow, new South Wales is really
(14:17):
strange.
Like I can understand, in WAwe've got loading right and
you've got loading in a lot ofthe states as well, so whereby,
if you are providing somethingin the Pil as opposed to
providing an nwa, the costs aredifferent because, like, the
costs are different, right, butI think we need to see, like to
try and get some consistency,like just a little bit more
(14:37):
consistency in like nominalhours, um, you know, and the
base rates of funding forqualifications I, you know that
is probably something rates offunding for qualifications I you
know that is probably somethingthat needs to be handed over
more to, like the job skillsagencies, jscs don't currently
have any control over nominalhours or any like.
They don't get a lot of input onfunding, and I think that
(14:59):
that's probably where, hopefully, we want to see some changes
over the next couple of years,because ultimately, at the
moment.
The people who are making thecalls on funding don't
understand the training that'soccurring.
They don't understand thediversity of what happens in the
industries and everything likethat, and so it needs to be
handed more to industry to bemaking those calls and have a
(15:21):
better structure, a nationwidestructure, when it comes to
government funding.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
I think that would be a brilliant idea make it much
easier, and comparing that databetween different states and
what works and what doesn't workand I think that's you know,
that's part of that solution ofwhen it comes to equitable
funding is really looking at thedifferent states and what
models are working and what'snot working.
I, yeah, definitely agree withthat.
(15:49):
Now I want you to yeah, aboutfunding.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
I'm just really curious.
So for you, with equitablefunding, right, does equitable
funding mean, like, every dollarthat we spend in TAFE, we
should be spending an equaldollar in private, or, you know,
would you prefer to see more ofa decision on, like on, you
know, the student being able todecide where their dollar goes?
Like, what does equitablefunding look like?
(16:13):
Like, if we came to youtomorrow and said, right,
angela's going to decide whatequitable funding looks like for
our sector and we're going toput that in place, what does
that look like for you?
Speaker 1 (16:27):
I'm going to put my political hat on if I could wave
a magic wand.
I think equitable funding isbased on outcomes.
So what results have RTOs had?
Private, public, enterprise,any type of RTO, what are their
(16:47):
completion ratings?
What are their satisfactionlevels when it comes to the
outcomes of what they'redelivering?
And I don't know whether wehave a system to properly
measure that right now.
We've got our vet mis miss dataand we've got quality
indicators, but we need somesort of system that's more
(17:10):
realistic with the outcomes.
In particular, I've got anumber of clients that deliver
training and they do have an 80to 90% employment rate, but at
the moment we're not allowed tomarket that because that's under
the standards.
we're not allowed to state whatour employment rate is can't
guarantee job outcomes, butthey've got the data that backs
(17:33):
it up to say, the their studentshave actually, uh, got a job
out of the training that theydelivered.
If we tracked and measured thatfollowing course completion,
what are the employment ratesfrom that?
And we should be tracking andmeasuring that as a national
data as well, because you knowultimately where, when it comes
(17:58):
to government funding, they'refunding training to get people
into jobs.
Why aren't we tracking whatpercentage are getting jobs?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
like so.
So I guess one, sorry, I guessone option for that then would
be to give everybody the fundingcontract no minimum amounts
that were we're guaranteeing toyou and then everything happens
on kind of like a tni sort of abasis.
Uh, so for those that aren'tfamiliar with with new south
wales, there's a tni press, orbasically you do a training
(18:33):
needs analysis and then you putforward and go right, well, this
is, this is the program thatwe've got, this is how we've
successfully delivered it before, this is the outcomes that
we're looking for.
And then the department goesokay, yep, cool, we'll fund you
for that, right?
Would that sort of a thingwhere literally, like, every RTO
would get the funding contractand then it would literally be
(18:56):
okay.
But now we're're gonna workwith you on, like, if you want
to run a program, you've got toput it forward to us, you've got
to see and we're going to lookat.
You know, have you fulfilledyour promises before?
Speaker 1 (19:05):
and I think it's their connections with, uh, job
active providers they're calleddifferent names around australia
but, um, basically thoseproviders that are trying to
place students into work,basically they're trying to get
them a job.
It's your connections with them, it's connections with industry
(19:25):
, how you collaborating withindustry and how you
contextualising your training tomeet those industry needs.
And then it's going into yourcommunity.
So, looking at your communityand where are the skill
shortages in your areas whereyou're delivering your training,
and then what is the model thatyou've put together in order to
meet that community need?
(19:46):
Now, this might sound like alot of work for a lot of RTOs,
but I think they're a lot like.
I know, when I had my RTO,that's what I did.
I worked with job activeproviders.
I was actively meeting withthem and asking them what type
of training do you need and whatare the outcomes that you want
to achieve?
(20:06):
And then I developed a program,a training and assessment
strategy based on what weretheir requirements and what were
their needs and their outcomes.
And then I delivered trainingaccording to that and we got
their funding so they wouldplace students into our training
because we had written itexactly what they wanted.
(20:29):
And I think that's where you'llhave a better outcome, and
that's where I don't know howthat aligns with equitable, but
it's you're addressing theproblem by developing a program
that addresses that problem andbe able to demonstrate the
outcomes.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, and then I guess a lot of that then boils
down to ensuring quality of it,just really boils down to the
auditing of it, and I meancertainly within, like, within
the funded space.
Pretty much all RTOs arereporting monthly, right?
I know one of the services thatwe do with our RTOs is we'll
sit down on a monthly basis withthem and go, okay, how many
(21:12):
units do you have open, how longare your units being open for?
What's the average time takingyou to close?
So, like, I've been workingwith one RTO recently and you
know, initially when we came onboard, it was taking them an
average of about 400 days toclose a unit.
And I'm going what the like?
What's going on, guys?
Right, and so, as we have beenworking with them, that's now
(21:35):
come down in some, some of theirprograms, to 84 days, right,
which is what we and I meanthese are trained, mostly
traineeship and apprenticeshipprograms which do tend to have
like our long you know theirlonger open times, um, but you
know, like they're not beingpaid if they're not finishing
those every month we'remonitoring those programs and
we're going okay, well, you knowwhat's the number, what's you
know are the numbers coming downand everything like that.
(21:57):
And you know, the first coupleof times we started doing this
with RTOs and sitting there withthe CEOs and managers and kind
of going here is your data right.
They were like this is amazing.
And I was like I ain't it, likeyou know.
But the shock of the RTOs kindof go and I'm like seriously,
like I look at this stuff in myRTOs all the time, like I don't
(22:20):
care what, like yes, I get mystaff's reports and all that
sort of stuff as to what I'vedone and you know how busy I am
and all that sort of thing.
But at the end of the day,right, data runs my life.
And I'm like how many units didwe close?
How many units did we open?
You know like why is trainer adoing 30 of the opens and closes
than trainer b is?
(22:41):
Like what's going on there?
You know like why does thistrainer have, you know, eight,
on average eight units open forstudent?
I'm like no, we don't do wedon't.
We do three or four at most, nomore than three or four units
open at a time.
It confuses and overwhelmsstudents, get them to finish
something before they open outsomething new.
All of that data is availablein people's systems and people
(23:02):
just don't use it.
And when we start using it, youknow, all of a sudden rto's go.
Oh, my god, like I'm like.
Yes, look at this amazing toolfor you to run your business
right.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
And even the data we're required to collect, like
a vet miss data and qualityindicators.
You can utilise that to improveyour practices as well.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
For sure.
Yeah, I mean, we've just beendoing our quality indicators.
They're obviously due next week.
So you know, we've beenprepping our RTOs quality
indicator reports and, inaddition to doing the quality
indicator report, we also givethem an overview of you know
where everything is sitting at.
(23:47):
So we don't just use thequality indicator reports, we
use additional surveys, we usethe complaints register, we
utilize google reviews, weutilize facebook reviews,
because a lot of rtos are doinga lot more of that sort of stuff
nowadays as well.
Um, and I mean like the stuffthat we pick up.
Like you know, we went on toone rto and realize hey guys,
you do realize, like you haven'thad any goog, any positive
(24:08):
google reviews in two years,you've got a student
satisfaction rating of 90.
The three students that wereunhappy with you went straight
onto Google and had a whingeabout it.
But like I've got 300 positivecomments here, you know, from
your students from this year,saying how freaking amazing your
(24:29):
trainers are.
No one's responded to the threenegative Google comments, like
Google reviews that have beenput up.
I'm like, what do you do, likeyou know, and there's so much
and often that's where peopleare first going to go.
They're going to do a googlesearch of your organization to
find out facebook reviews, youknow, insta ratings, all of this
(24:50):
sort of stuff, like yeah, it's,you know, but but unfortunately
, I do think there's justthere's so many RTOs that don't
know how to use their data, andyou're right in that we're not
collecting the data that weshould be that post-employment,
uh, that post-trainingemployment stats.
I mean, in an ideal world, areyou employed when you graduate?
(25:11):
Are you employed three monthsafter you graduate?
Are you employed six monthsafter you graduate?
Are you employed six monthsafter you graduate?
And is that in the same field,right?
Um, you know, did the RTO helpyou.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Did RTO?
Did the RTO help you to getthat job?
Yeah, yeah for sure, becausethere's a lot of RTOs that do
yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
There is, like job I especially in qualifications
where job placement is part ofthe overall training you know or
, like you know, within thetraineeship and apprenticeship
space, if a trainee like I know,a lot of RTOs that advocate for
the students to make sure thatthe employer is paying those
fees.
So that you know, if you'repaying an apprentice $13 an hour
(25:54):
and then you're forcing them topay their own fees for their
qualification like the amount ofRTOs that I know that have
stepped in and kind of gone oi,you're getting $8,000 for this
kid to study with you.
You're literally paying them$13 an hour.
You're not going to have them.
Like you are going to pay thefees for them.
Like I'm sorry, you are goingto pay the fees for them.
(26:15):
Like I'm sorry, you are goingto pay the fees for them.
And I've had rtos that haveliterally turned around and gone
.
We're not providing thetraining to you unless you're
going to be the one that paysfees.
You're not making this kid paythe fees, right, but it's the
rto that stepped in to advocatethat.
It wasn't the asson who?
I'll be honest, I think.
I think the vast majority ofassons are completely effing
useless, um, even though theirwhole job is to advocate for
(26:36):
students, right?
Um, a lot of the times it isthe rto that goes into advocate
for them.
I've had rtos where thestudents come and disclose that,
like, the employer is abusingthem, you know, like, and it's
the rto that's stepped in, youknow.
Or where you know the studentis completed and the employer is
refusing to sign off on thestudent's trade certificate and
(26:58):
the RTO has had to step in atrisk to the RTO, right, and go
to the government and be like,seriously, you know, like you,
you know the ASIN and the StateDepartment need to go and say to
them this kid is competent,like this kid is competent, you
have to start paying them as aproper trainee, right?
Yeah, um, it happens inindustry all the time and
(27:19):
there's so much work that RTOsare doing that goes unrecognized
um, I'm gonna do a sidestephere.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
It's still to do with government funding.
Did you hear that Albaneserecently announced that work
placement will be paid by thegovernment to any student doing
nursing or any nursing-relatedunits within university and TAFE
(27:50):
?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Yes, so this program was actually launched over a
year ago actually might havebeen two years ago now but, it
is now in place.
Now it's.
It's now actually yeah, it'snow actually come into fruition,
but it wasn't going to be tape,it was just going to be
university it was.
it was just going to be for theuniversities.
It's now just going to it'sit's.
It still will not be for any umprivate provider students that
(28:15):
are studying.
It obviously won't support anyof the international students to
some extent and actually I'mnot sure about that If they're
an international student inuniversity, they're not going to
be able to study, Are they?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
covered under this program?
Oh, I don't know.
That's an interesting question.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I'm going to have to take a look at that.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Guys, we're going to find out and we're going to drop
it in the comments.
Because if they are funding, ifthey refuse to fund a student
who is enrolled with a privateprovider who is an Australian
citizen, but they will fund anoverseas student studying it in
the internet in in a university,I will, I will call, I will, I
(28:56):
will call it, I will call it.
Absolutely, I will 100% denotethat.
Um, but yeah, I mean, look, Ilook for students that are
studying in qualifications, um,that are super desperately
needed by industry.
I'm all for providing somesupport for placement Like those
(29:17):
placements can be hard.
Those placements, you know youoften have to do weeks and weeks
at a time, so you've got togive up your income in order to
be able to go through and dothis.
And to me, if it's in an areathat are like that, we
desperately need support.
So, you know, nursing some ofthe trades you know, aged care,
(29:41):
things like that, where you knowwe need more nurses, we need
more carers.
You know we need more tradies.
I'm honestly for putting moremoney into all of those sorts of
things.
We need more tradies.
I'm honestly for putting moremoney into all of those sorts of
things, um, because, like ournation desperately needs them,
we desperately need more ofthese qualified people.
I think for any of theseshortages.
You know it should be about.
(30:02):
You know the like.
If it's in that particular areathat we need, then let's like,
let's fund it, fund it.
I fully see the importance ofthe arts and everything like
that, but if we have a limitedbucket of funding, then at this
particular point in our country,looking at where the world is
(30:26):
and looking at the bigchallenges that we have, looking
at the big challenges that wehave, we should be putting money
into whatever it takes to getmore nurses, doctors, engineers,
tradies, you know, age carers.
That's what we need.
People working as right.
Like so the more people we canget doing that, and we need
(30:48):
trainers who are able to teachpeople how to do that.
So, like, that's where weshould be putting our money into
right is getting those things.
Yeah, you know we've donestupid shit all the time and I
don't understand why.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
We're great at wasting money.
It's also been noted thatthere's a high dropout rate for
students who have to undertakework placement because they
can't afford it.
They can't afford to leavetheir other job while they're
doing work placement.
I know my son.
He's completing RN, he's doinga university degree as a
(31:23):
registered nurse and every timehe had to go do work placement
he was poor.
He couldn't pay for his billsbecause he had to do his work
placement and leave his payingjob whilst he did that and that
causes a very high dropout rate.
We see the same when it comesto AIN, which is the assistant
(31:48):
in nursing, which is a lot ofthe aged care, community
services and disabilities.
We see the same thing.
They have to drop out or theycan't complete their work
placement requirements becausethey've got to get a paid job.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Yeah, I mean, and then a lot of them are just
unfortunately in a positionwhereby they're going to be
doing their placement during theday and they're going to be
working a second job and a thirdjob nights and weekends.
So I will.
I did just do a quick searchand it does look like
international students are noteligible.
So I will say there was somegovernment rationality I did the
(32:21):
same.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
So for 1 July it's only for domestic students, not
international, and it's teaching, midwifery and social work
placements yeah and look we need.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I mean, do we need more actual teachers?
Like is, is that a thing thatwe need?
Is that that's because of thehigh dropout right?
Speaker 1 (32:44):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
And school teachers are thesame when they do work placement
, that's when they get a highdropout rate oh, yeah, it's.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
I mean it's because you've got to do it for a whole
term, like you know.
So it's it's three months.
Um, I did my work placement.
I was pregnant with mikey, um,so I, yeah, I literally I was
smashing it at that particularpoint in time.
I doubled up my work scheduleto try and pop out the placement
before I popped out the kid.
(33:11):
Um, but yeah, like it's, it'svery full-on.
So I do support it in areasthat we, we do desperately need
it.
I just think that we're justwe're so we're really silly with
how we use the austral, likewith how we use australian
dollars, like our governmentjust doesn't and it, look, it's,
(33:32):
it's irrelevant, like, look,I'm not going to say it's, it's
just labor, because it's labor,it's liberal, it's.
You know, it is unfortunate thatI don't think it matters who's
in government we have like arethe people that we have that
come and work with the fromgovernment in the vet sector.
The last person that we hadthat like seemed to me to be
(33:55):
really passionate about helpingall providers was simon
birmingham.
Um, I loved him as a minister.
He was super approachable.
He had a very good level ofrespect for both the public and
the private systems.
Um, he was really willing tolisten like super willing to
listen and understand what theproblems and the private systems
and listened.
He was really willing to listenlike super willing to listen
and understand what the problemsand the challenges were.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
And he actually understood education too?
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah, for sure, but he was the last minister that we
had, and I'm definitely datingmyself in saying that.
But, like you know, since thenwe haven't.
And we have way too many um,both federal and state ministers
who just have such a poor likethe words dodgy rto just falls
(34:42):
out of their mouth, and anytimeanything's positive, it's about
TAFE, and I'm like there's justso much, there is so much good
that is done in our sector.
Stop talking about the problem.
We all know the problems arethere.
Ascor is there dealing with theproblems?
I mean, how many qualificationshave they cancelled Like they
are taking and RTOs have beenshut down.
(35:03):
Seriously, at the moment, right, like we've got RTOs being
given $20,000 fines for notsubmitting their AVAT-MIS.
Right, at the moment, I've hadso many RTOs approach me and be
like we got a $20,000 fine.
We don't have any students andI'm like oh dolls.
Right, we've got RTOs beingcancelled the moment that they
(35:25):
don't do a year's worth oftraining.
Right, like they've literallyregistered and like a year out
they're like you haven'tsubmitted your avid, you've
submitted in your event.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
So therefore we've taken you out to your
registration from you.
I'm like oh, meanwhile we'vehad we've been had no government
funding, we haven't been ableto find any students, and now
we've got a new legislativechange and we've got to update
all of our documents.
So we're a little busy rightnow yeah, new training packages
coming out.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
There's a whole new unit format coming out for those
training packages.
We're getting rid ofperformance elements and
criteria like elements andperformance criteria.
After that we're going to havethe AVEMIS change.
After that we're going to havethis supposed AQTF change, which
is actually probably nevergoing to happen.
But whatevs right, like RTOs,deal with a lot guys.
Government seriously give us afucking break, like just a tiny
(36:12):
one.
We work really hard.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
We work really really hard and we're trying to do our
best um, yeah, we're, like youknow, to get automatic with uh
registration cancelled justbecause you haven't had the dark
, you haven't had the students,and not even asking why and what
, what is the background?
Speaker 2 (36:32):
yeah, it's just gone, gone bye that came to me when
they got those letters a coupleof weeks ago, as to like oh we
know that you've put in yourapplication.
We know you've been waiting for18 months.
You're now going to have toagree to the new standards or
we'll give you back your eightthousand dollars.
And I had providers sittingthere going we've, we've paid.
(36:54):
We've paid seventy fivethousand dollars because we have
to have a facility that wehaven't been able to use.
Like eight thousand dollarsmeans nothing to us and all the
resources and the trainers andassessors $50,000 in this
process and I'm sitting theregoing no, no, I know I
understand they don't care.
(37:15):
Like this is.
You know they don't care?
Sorry, they don't care.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah, unfortunately, the government do not know how
to run a business and I oftensee this where they just don't
understand how an RTO runs andthat, in particular, a private
RTO where you've got to meet allof the other legislative
requirements when it comes toindustrial relations and WHS and
(37:41):
you know go on and on and oninsurance and all that sort of
stuff and how they've got tomanage all of that, as well as
the marketing, as well as youknow building a brand for their
RTO.
They don't understand like, yes, compliance is a component, but
we cannot survive on compliancealone as an RTO.
(38:05):
There is so much more that weneed to do.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Yeah, like the only equipment, like.
So I keep chickens, keepchickens right, because I live
in far north queensland.
I'm a crazy person who livesfar now, so I keep chickens and
like every time I introduce likenew chickens, right, we've got
like these little baby chickensthat are running around and they
just get the kick like the crapkicked out of them right by
like all of the other chickens.
So it's always like the tiniestchicken that gets the hardest
(38:29):
time and I'm always like you'relike my latios, like you just,
but they just keep on running,like they keep on running and
they keep on trying, right, butI'm like you're just getting the
crap kicked out of me, you poorlittle things, and you just
keep going.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Oh, that's such a good analogy.
I like that.
Some people are so fudge.
So yeah, before we close, I'mgoing to ask a question.
Okay, is the narrative aroundTAFE as being the backbone of
the vet sector outdated?
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Look okay.
So it's a hard.
That's a hard one for mebecause I know in my heart you
cannot take away tafe right andyou cannot take away private
rtos.
But I feel, like you know, whenwe say the backbone right, like
if you have the bones there butyou don't have the muscle to
like then connect and thetissues to connect all of the
(39:29):
bones, it it's useless.
And that's exactly what privateand public are like.
Like you 100% need both.
There is great, amazingtraining that happens in both
private and public RTOs.
We need public and private RTOs.
It's an ecosystem.
But exactly right, like withoutboth of them being healthy, we
(39:53):
start to see problems, and myconcern is is that I totally
understand that for yearsthere's been some real concerns
that the numbers in TAFE aredwindling and everything like
that.
I don't think it means that weswitch everything and this is
what I like.
This is what governments ingeneral do and again, it's it's,
you know, it's it's.
(40:13):
It doesn't matter what thegovernment is, um, it swings
like super far in one directionand so at the moment they're
kind of going, oh, tafe's introuble, like push everything
towards that.
And then you start to see thefact that, like, our little
private sector starts to dwindleand die and we see beautiful
little businesses thatunfortunately just turn around
(40:35):
and go.
I'm out like it's all too hard,and then what happens inevitably
is that the money then dries up.
Tape falls over because it can'tcope Tape falls over because it
can't cope and you know, theindustries start to get really
shitty because they're notgetting the training that they
need.
And then it swings right.
(40:57):
And then the government goes ohshit, and the government swings
.
The only time I've seen itwhere it works well is where
industry chooses to self-correct.
And so my advice to RTOs at themoment is go and take your
programs and go and talk withNew South Wales TAFE and see if
you can work out third partyarrangements, because I know
they do it right, all of theTAFEs do it.
And my advice if you're NewSouth Wales TAFE and you're
(41:20):
sitting here and you're going,holy shit, we've got a lot of
money, we don't have thetrainers, we don't have the
facilities, go and talk with theRTOs in the regional areas
where you don't have thetrainers and where you don't
have the facilities and youalready have it organized.
Progress with those private RTOs.
Guys.
The only way that we're goingto make this work like if we get
, we're relying on government tomake this work.
(41:41):
It ain't going to happen, right.
That daddy government is notgoing to fix this problem, right
?
Only way we're going to fixthis problem is if we go out and
we implement the solutionsourselves, and that is.
It's not about private versuspublic, it's not about TAFE
versus whatever.
We all need to be workingtogether to help the students
and industry get the outcomesthat we need we need to
(42:03):
collaborate together to have abetter education just like you
know, rto consultants don't needto war.
We can all fight together likethere's plenty of RTOs to save.
That's right.
You know, it's exactly the samein the RTO market.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah .
And I love how we cancollaborate and be able to
discuss what's happening in theindustry sector, having a total
understanding of how it allworks.
And still, we're not enemies.
We collaborate, and that's whatthe government needs to do with
(42:39):
private providers as well asTAFE.
It should be a collaborationwhere and I'm going to go back
to that equitable funding, theequitable funding.
How can we work together?
I think that's the answer.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Yeah, 100 so there we go.
We just solved the vet crisis.
Guys, take our advice andeverything will be fine.
And what's next?
I'd like to talk about worldpeace yes, maybe we'll solve
that as well.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Yeah, I have a solution to that as well.
Thank you very much, Lauren,for joining me again today in
the RTO Superhero Podcast.
It's been fantastic talkingwith you again and I love how we
get to have this conversationand people get to join our
conversation and hear twoconsultants experienced in the
(43:33):
training industry talking shitpretty much.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
I love it.
I love it, let's do it againsoon?
Speaker 1 (43:41):
yes, certainly.
Thank you very much everyonefor joining us on the rto
superhero podcast and I lookforward to catching up with you
again soon.
Please check the show notes forthe changeorg link for the
petition.
The more we can get to sign it,the more we have a voice when
it comes to what happens in ourindustry sector.
(44:02):
Thank you, bye for now.
Awesome, that was good.
Welcome back to the RTO Superhero Podcast, where
we're going to be covering allthings that are important right
now when it comes to thetraining industry, and, in
particular, right now is theissues that we have around
government funding aroundAustralia.
And I have with me co-hosttoday, lauren Hollows, who has
(00:26):
had many experiences in thisarea with her clients and what
she's heard within the industry.
So let's get to it, lauren.
Welcome to the RTO SuperheroPodcast and let's get started.
What's been your experience sofar with regards to government
funding around Australia?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, thank you for having me back.
Look, I mean, governmentfunding is such an interesting
space.
It's incredibly challenging forRTOs.
It requires so many additionalprocesses and forms and
knowledge of systems and thingslike that.
So, you know, hats off to anyRTO that manages multiple state
(01:06):
funding contracts, right, it'svery interesting to watch all of
the ebbs and flows that occurin our industry and you know,
like Queensland came up lastyear for funding.
So obviously we had a couple ofRTOs reaching out to us and
going, hey, can you help us puttogether these things?
So we started looking at allthe requirements and last year
(01:27):
in order to get through roundone, you had to have delivered
10 qualifications in that spacein Queensland in that
qualification in order to beable to apply.
So we had a couple of RTOs thatdidn't meet the requirements
and they were like, we'll put itforward anyway.
Um, we had one RTO thatdelivered, had delivered the
(01:49):
qualification in Queensland, um,and had multiple completions,
but it was for internationalstudents and so, um, you know
Queensland was like not eligibledoesn't count, right.
We had another client who haddelivered the same program in
far regional wa to a aboriginaland torstrait islander first
(02:13):
nations cohort.
They had 80 completion rates,right, huge completion rates for
job seeker cohorts, hugecompletion rates for regional
cohorts, and again, just didn'tcount.
Didn't count because it hadn'tbeen done in Queensland.
You know, vet DSS programs.
(02:33):
So vets delivered secondaryschool programs with 95%
completion rates, not interestedin, you know, not interested
because it wasn't delivered inQueensland.
We were like, yeah, but we wantto bring this to Queensland.
Like you can see, we can dothis and we can do this well,
and we get great completionoutcomes.
And it was like, not so much.
(02:54):
Wouldn't you like the sameresults?
Right, like if I'm an employerand someone's coming to me and
going okay, I want to look atwho I'm going to be giving out
my funding to.
Who am I going to pay for thisparticular service?
And I've got someone that comesto me and they go well, I've
delivered.
I've delivered.
You know, we got funded for ahundred places and we got 20
completions last year and nowI've got this guy that goes,
(03:17):
well, I got given a hundredplaces in WA and I completed 75%
of them.
Who am I going to pick?
Right, I'm going to pick thepeople that have got the good
outcomes and you'll be like well, there's obviously something
that you guys are doing there.
If you can replicate that here,then, absolutely like you're
going to get the better outcomes, you're going to give me better
bang for my buck, right?
(03:38):
What's?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
going on in these government departments when they
can't like entrepreneurs asentrepreneurs, we we go.
Yeah, I know exactly where Iwouldn't want to invest my money
what am I going to get for it?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
like, if I'm going to give everyone five thousand
dollars and someone's going togive me, you know, all of this,
and this one's going to be likeI'm going to give you this, but
I'm going to give you this, I'mgoing to be like I'm going to, I
want that right.
I'm going to be like I wantthat Right, and I think that's
that is.
The problem.
Is is like it's incredibly hardto set up a, you know, to set
up a government funded program.
And I know in our previousepisode we were talking about
(04:13):
like what does equitable fundinglook like?
And you know, I don't know ifit looks like, you know, school
choice, where we go, okay, well,every student gets $10, dollars
to go and spend on a vetqualification, right, and I
think we've seen in the past howthat can be rorted.
So I understand the challengesof setting up a government
(04:33):
funding program that is going tobe equitable, that is going to
be, you know, like nothing'srort proof, but like that is
going to have sufficientbarriers in place that we can
ensure quality and things ormaximize the chances of quality
and things like that.
But I think that you know,unfortunately, because there is
(04:56):
just a lack of understanding andbecause we don't seem to do
these things based on data andevery state is so adamant about
running things their own way asopposed to moving to any kind of
nationally harmonized system.
Um, you know it's, the dirtyword of um, of vet funding, is
that we unfortunately end up ina place whereby there's no
(05:21):
guarantees, um, and so what wedo see is we see a lot of like
I've got a lot of RTO owners intheir 60s that are just turning
around and going.
You know what?
It's all too hard.
It used to be that when theinternational market went feral,
right, we could rely ontraineeships and apprenticeships
.
Or when the traineeships andapprenticeships went feral, we
(05:43):
could rely on.
You know, like theinternational market, it feels
at the moment like there is justan assault and a lack of, just
a lack of, like, any sort ofbaseline across the board.
That I completely understandwhere RTOs come from, and
(06:03):
there's some amazing RTOs thatare out there that are now
literally just going.
We literally just can't rely onanyone or anything, and so we
have to and we have.
So, therefore, we have to beable to do it all Like we've got
to be able to have a bit of feefor service and a bit of
government funding across acouple of different places and a
bit of cry costs and stuff likethat, and that then causes an
(06:24):
RTO to really have like I meanto run an RTO that runs multiple
funding contracts,fee-for-service
institution-based programs,workplace programs and CRICOS.
Holy Hannah, it's hard, it's ahard work.
You've got to have a massivecompliance team and I think this
is why we're seeing a lot moreRTOs kind of come together and
so we're seeing, like you know,groups of RTOs that are
(06:48):
operating with like five or sixRTOs under like a parent company
, because it's just kind of likewe can't do all of this without
having some sort of writing youknow, yeah, a hundred percent.
Um, and I think we're going tocontinue to see a lot more of
that because, you know, for themom and pop RTOs that do some
(07:08):
really beautiful training, theamount of work that's associated
with maintaining compliance nowis just becoming to a point
where it's not feasible for thevast majority of mom and pop
RTOs to be able to continue tooperate in that manner.
You need to have a biggercompany that's going to sit, you
(07:28):
know, on top of you that'sgoing to be able to help.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
That's going to help you to manage that sort of thing
, particularly with the majorchanges that we have with the
new standards, in particular,when it comes to governance,
continuous improvement and riskmanagement.
When it comes to governance,continuous improvement and risk
management, there is a lot morework that's going to be involved
with managing that, and I cansee the reason why it's being
(07:55):
added to the standards, becauseit certainly will raise the
quality of education.
But these small RTOs, I don'tknow how they're going to cope
with all of the management ofthis, and that's why we're
trying to build a system that'sautomated.
So ComplyHub is a compliancemanagement system where it's
(08:16):
automated and it will be able toidentify risks based on the
data that you put into it.
So, yeah, I just think that's amajor one.
And then another side that cameup for me then when, whilst you
were talking, when it comes tohow do we support equitable
funding when it comes to TAFEand private RTOs?
(08:37):
Private RTOs currently deliver80% of the training, currently
deliver 80% of the training.
Tafe is 15%, so they deliver15% of the training.
Yes, the government mostprobably are wanting TAFE to
(08:58):
deliver more training, but theydon't have that capacity, they
don't have the infrastructure,and then so they're stating the
government's stating that itwill be 100,000 fee-free places
by 2027 each year, but we'realready seeing massive cuts to
private RTOs now Like thatfunding.
70% of that government fundingis now going to TAFE and they
(09:18):
don't have that infrastructure,whereas private RTOs already
have that infrastructure, theyalready have the outcomes and
they already have the completionratings.
That's where equitabilityshould go.
The equitable funding should goto those providers that have
the outcomes, they have thecompletion ratings and they have
(09:39):
the happiness outcomes.
So where students and employers, the outcomes that the RTOs are
getting, is based on that datathat we've received.
So, yeah, I definitely believethat that's where it should be
(09:59):
equitably.
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Yeah, and I mean for those that don't know, new South
Wales does actually track that.
Every year, you know fundedproviders get a report on the
satisfaction of the trainingthat they've delivered, which is
undertaken separately by NewSouth Wales government, and if
you receive a low rating, youhave to have a meeting with your
case manager and you have todiscuss the reason why you
(10:25):
received that.
And you know you kind of gettold well, you know you might
not get your funding contractnext year because you know your
student satisfaction outcomesare not where they need to be
and you know every state hasdifferent measures for that.
Like you know, wa has gotcompletion outcomes, like
they've got completionbenchmarks that RTOs are
(10:45):
supposed to meet, based oneither you know, or a
qualification level.
So you know again all of this.
Like different states have gotdifferent mechanisms for this
and you know, if the states everchose to come together and
actually have a discussion on,like, what aspects of their
funding worked and what aspectsdidn't, you know we could
definitely come up with a bettersystem.
(11:05):
I think one of the potentialsto change that is when we start
to see that, when we see our newAVATMIS system launch, which I
think is going to be coming outnext year.
We've got new AVATMIS datathat's going to be coming out.
As part of that, there is afive-year plan to have all
states harmonize their data,which is going look.
(11:27):
It's terrifying to me and it'sinteresting at the same time,
having worked particularly withWA for a very long period.
Every time we get a new statefunding system that launches, I
inevitably like inevitably myRTOs get screwed and like when
the new system launches, you'llget something that's like oh,
(11:48):
but this data has dropped out,so actually we're not going to
pay you this month and we oweyou, you owe us, you know, a
hundred thousand dollars and ittakes a couple of months to work
out all the bugs and likeeverything works out okay
eventually.
But anytime a new governmentsystem comes out, I have
visceral trauma Right.
So I'm super excited to seesome harmonisation of state data
(12:13):
because I'm hoping that thatwill actually lead to good
conversations happening betweenthe states and hopefully a
little bit more consistency.
I mean, queensland only paysupon completion.
Wa pays 70% upon commencementof a unit of competency.
New South Wales pays threepayments over the course of a
(12:34):
qualification, you know, forRTOs that have to navigate these
sorts of things and there'sactually not a lot of
consultants out there that do alot of work in the funding space
because it changes soconsistently and every system is
so different.
Like to try and find somebodywho knows how to lodge a smart
(12:55):
lodge on the smart and skillede-portal.
Um, you know, coordinate thelodgement between TAMS and you
know know in WA and you know,run your prerequisite numbers in
South Australia.
Like you know they don't.
They're just not out there.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
It's really hard for RTOs trying to find those people
, right, yeah yeah, We've helpedon a few different states, but
it's mainly individual on a fewdifferent states, but it's
mainly individual RTOs thatwe've been working with for a
long time, so we understandtheir RTO and their background.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
But, yeah, each time we look at a new funding it's
like, oh God, you've got torelearn everything, yeah, and
like there's so many different,you know like every single one
of them has different policiesand procedures.
They've all got differentrequirements for data reporting
and things like that.
So I think that trying to cometo some sort of I mean at a very
(13:53):
minimum agreement, getting thedata for it will be great.
Further to that, um, you know,like in an ideal world we would
start to get some consistency,like the amount of funding that
a qualification gets acrossstates.
How it can be three times aqualification in, you know,
south Australia as it is in, youknow, new South Wales is really
(14:17):
strange.
Like I can understand, in WAwe've got loading right and
you've got loading in a lot ofthe states as well, so whereby,
if you are providing somethingin the Pil as opposed to
providing an nwa, the costs aredifferent because, like, the
costs are different, right, butI think we need to see, like to
try and get some consistency,like just a little bit more
(14:37):
consistency in like nominalhours, um, you know, and the
base rates of funding forqualifications I, you know that
is probably something rates offunding for qualifications I you
know that is probably somethingthat needs to be handed over
more to, like the job skillsagencies, jscs don't currently
have any control over nominalhours or any like.
They don't get a lot of input onfunding, and I think that
(14:59):
that's probably where, hopefully, we want to see some changes
over the next couple of years,because ultimately, at the
moment.
The people who are making thecalls on funding don't
understand the training that'soccurring.
They don't understand thediversity of what happens in the
industries and everything likethat, and so it needs to be
handed more to industry to bemaking those calls and have a
(15:21):
better structure, a nationwidestructure, when it comes to
government funding.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
I think that would be a brilliant idea make it much
easier, and comparing that databetween different states and
what works and what doesn't workand I think that's you know,
that's part of that solution ofwhen it comes to equitable
funding is really looking at thedifferent states and what
models are working and what'snot working.
I, yeah, definitely agree withthat.
(15:49):
Now I want you to yeah, aboutfunding.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
I'm just really curious.
So for you, with equitablefunding, right, does equitable
funding mean, like, every dollarthat we spend in TAFE, we
should be spending an equaldollar in private, or, you know,
would you prefer to see more ofa decision on, like on, you
know, the student being able todecide where their dollar goes?
Like, what does equitablefunding look like?
(16:13):
Like, if we came to youtomorrow and said, right,
angela's going to decide whatequitable funding looks like for
our sector and we're going toput that in place, what does
that look like for you?
Speaker 1 (16:27):
I'm going to put my political hat on if I could wave
a magic wand.
I think equitable funding isbased on outcomes.
So what results have RTOs had?
Private, public, enterprise,any type of RTO, what are their
(16:47):
completion ratings?
What are their satisfactionlevels when it comes to the
outcomes of what they'redelivering?
And I don't know whether wehave a system to properly
measure that right now.
We've got our vet mis miss dataand we've got quality
indicators, but we need somesort of system that's more
(17:10):
realistic with the outcomes.
In particular, I've got anumber of clients that deliver
training and they do have an 80to 90% employment rate, but at
the moment we're not allowed tomarket that because that's under
the standards.
we're not allowed to state whatour employment rate is can't
guarantee job outcomes, butthey've got the data that backs
(17:33):
it up to say, the their studentshave actually, uh, got a job
out of the training that theydelivered.
If we tracked and measured thatfollowing course completion,
what are the employment ratesfrom that?
And we should be tracking andmeasuring that as a national
data as well, because you knowultimately where, when it comes
(17:58):
to government funding, they'refunding training to get people
into jobs.
Why aren't we tracking whatpercentage are getting jobs?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
like so.
So I guess one, sorry, I guessone option for that then would
be to give everybody the fundingcontract no minimum amounts
that were we're guaranteeing toyou and then everything happens
on kind of like a tni sort of abasis.
Uh, so for those that aren'tfamiliar with with new south
wales, there's a tni press, orbasically you do a training
(18:33):
needs analysis and then you putforward and go right, well, this
is, this is the program thatwe've got, this is how we've
successfully delivered it before, this is the outcomes that
we're looking for.
And then the department goesokay, yep, cool, we'll fund you
for that, right?
Would that sort of a thingwhere literally, like, every RTO
would get the funding contractand then it would literally be
(18:56):
okay.
But now we're're gonna workwith you on, like, if you want
to run a program, you've got toput it forward to us, you've got
to see and we're going to lookat.
You know, have you fulfilledyour promises before?
Speaker 1 (19:05):
and I think it's their connections with, uh, job
active providers they're calleddifferent names around australia
but, um, basically thoseproviders that are trying to
place students into work,basically they're trying to get
them a job.
It's your connections with them, it's connections with industry
(19:25):
, how you collaborating withindustry and how you
contextualising your training tomeet those industry needs.
And then it's going into yourcommunity.
So, looking at your communityand where are the skill
shortages in your areas whereyou're delivering your training,
and then what is the model thatyou've put together in order to
meet that community need?
(19:46):
Now, this might sound like alot of work for a lot of RTOs,
but I think they're a lot like.
I know, when I had my RTO,that's what I did.
I worked with job activeproviders.
I was actively meeting withthem and asking them what type
of training do you need and whatare the outcomes that you want
to achieve?
(20:06):
And then I developed a program,a training and assessment
strategy based on what weretheir requirements and what were
their needs and their outcomes.
And then I delivered trainingaccording to that and we got
their funding so they wouldplace students into our training
because we had written itexactly what they wanted.
(20:29):
And I think that's where you'llhave a better outcome, and
that's where I don't know howthat aligns with equitable, but
it's you're addressing theproblem by developing a program
that addresses that problem andbe able to demonstrate the
outcomes.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, and then I guess a lot of that then boils
down to ensuring quality of it,just really boils down to the
auditing of it, and I meancertainly within, like, within
the funded space.
Pretty much all RTOs arereporting monthly, right?
I know one of the services thatwe do with our RTOs is we'll
sit down on a monthly basis withthem and go, okay, how many
(21:12):
units do you have open, how longare your units being open for?
What's the average time takingyou to close?
So, like, I've been workingwith one RTO recently and you
know, initially when we came onboard, it was taking them an
average of about 400 days toclose a unit.
And I'm going what the like?
What's going on, guys?
Right, and so, as we have beenworking with them, that's now
(21:35):
come down in some, some of theirprograms, to 84 days, right,
which is what we and I meanthese are trained, mostly
traineeship and apprenticeshipprograms which do tend to have
like our long you know theirlonger open times, um, but you
know, like they're not beingpaid if they're not finishing
those every month we'remonitoring those programs and
we're going okay, well, you knowwhat's the number, what's you
know are the numbers coming downand everything like that.
(21:57):
And you know, the first coupleof times we started doing this
with RTOs and sitting there withthe CEOs and managers and kind
of going here is your data right.
They were like this is amazing.
And I was like I ain't it, likeyou know.
But the shock of the RTOs kindof go and I'm like seriously,
like I look at this stuff in myRTOs all the time, like I don't
(22:20):
care what, like yes, I get mystaff's reports and all that
sort of stuff as to what I'vedone and you know how busy I am
and all that sort of thing.
But at the end of the day,right, data runs my life.
And I'm like how many units didwe close?
How many units did we open?
You know like why is trainer adoing 30 of the opens and closes
than trainer b is?
(22:41):
Like what's going on there?
You know like why does thistrainer have, you know, eight,
on average eight units open forstudent?
I'm like no, we don't do wedon't.
We do three or four at most, nomore than three or four units
open at a time.
It confuses and overwhelmsstudents, get them to finish
something before they open outsomething new.
All of that data is availablein people's systems and people
(23:02):
just don't use it.
And when we start using it, youknow, all of a sudden rto's go.
Oh, my god, like I'm like.
Yes, look at this amazing toolfor you to run your business
right.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
And even the data we're required to collect, like
a vet miss data and qualityindicators.
You can utilise that to improveyour practices as well.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
For sure.
Yeah, I mean, we've just beendoing our quality indicators.
They're obviously due next week.
So you know, we've beenprepping our RTOs quality
indicator reports and, inaddition to doing the quality
indicator report, we also givethem an overview of you know
where everything is sitting at.
(23:47):
So we don't just use thequality indicator reports, we
use additional surveys, we usethe complaints register, we
utilize google reviews, weutilize facebook reviews,
because a lot of rtos are doinga lot more of that sort of stuff
nowadays as well.
Um, and I mean like the stuffthat we pick up.
Like you know, we went on toone rto and realize hey guys,
you do realize, like you haven'thad any goog, any positive
(24:08):
google reviews in two years,you've got a student
satisfaction rating of 90.
The three students that wereunhappy with you went straight
onto Google and had a whingeabout it.
But like I've got 300 positivecomments here, you know, from
your students from this year,saying how freaking amazing your
(24:29):
trainers are.
No one's responded to the threenegative Google comments, like
Google reviews that have beenput up.
I'm like, what do you do, likeyou know, and there's so much
and often that's where peopleare first going to go.
They're going to do a googlesearch of your organization to
find out facebook reviews, youknow, insta ratings, all of this
(24:50):
sort of stuff, like yeah, it's,you know, but but unfortunately
, I do think there's justthere's so many RTOs that don't
know how to use their data, andyou're right in that we're not
collecting the data that weshould be that post-employment,
uh, that post-trainingemployment stats.
I mean, in an ideal world, areyou employed when you graduate?
(25:11):
Are you employed three monthsafter you graduate?
Are you employed six monthsafter you graduate?
Are you employed six monthsafter you graduate?
And is that in the same field,right?
Um, you know, did the RTO helpyou.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Did RTO?
Did the RTO help you to getthat job?
Yeah, yeah for sure, becausethere's a lot of RTOs that do
yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
There is, like job I especially in qualifications
where job placement is part ofthe overall training you know or
, like you know, within thetraineeship and apprenticeship
space, if a trainee like I know,a lot of RTOs that advocate for
the students to make sure thatthe employer is paying those
fees.
So that you know, if you'repaying an apprentice $13 an hour
(25:54):
and then you're forcing them topay their own fees for their
qualification like the amount ofRTOs that I know that have
stepped in and kind of gone oi,you're getting $8,000 for this
kid to study with you.
You're literally paying them$13 an hour.
You're not going to have them.
Like you are going to pay thefees for them.
Like I'm sorry, you are goingto pay the fees for them.
(26:15):
Like I'm sorry, you are goingto pay the fees for them.
And I've had rtos that haveliterally turned around and gone
.
We're not providing thetraining to you unless you're
going to be the one that paysfees.
You're not making this kid paythe fees, right, but it's the
rto that stepped in to advocatethat.
It wasn't the asson who?
I'll be honest, I think.
I think the vast majority ofassons are completely effing
useless, um, even though theirwhole job is to advocate for
(26:36):
students, right?
Um, a lot of the times it isthe rto that goes into advocate
for them.
I've had rtos where thestudents come and disclose that,
like, the employer is abusingthem, you know, like, and it's
the rto that's stepped in, youknow.
Or where you know the studentis completed and the employer is
refusing to sign off on thestudent's trade certificate and
(26:58):
the RTO has had to step in atrisk to the RTO, right, and go
to the government and be like,seriously, you know, like you,
you know the ASIN and the StateDepartment need to go and say to
them this kid is competent,like this kid is competent, you
have to start paying them as aproper trainee, right?
Yeah, um, it happens inindustry all the time and
(27:19):
there's so much work that RTOsare doing that goes unrecognized
um, I'm gonna do a sidestephere.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
It's still to do with government funding.
Did you hear that Albaneserecently announced that work
placement will be paid by thegovernment to any student doing
nursing or any nursing-relatedunits within university and TAFE
(27:50):
?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Yes, so this program was actually launched over a
year ago actually might havebeen two years ago now but, it
is now in place.
Now it's.
It's now actually yeah, it'snow actually come into fruition,
but it wasn't going to be tape,it was just going to be
university it was.
it was just going to be for theuniversities.
It's now just going to it'sit's.
It still will not be for any umprivate provider students that
(28:15):
are studying.
It obviously won't support anyof the international students to
some extent and actually I'mnot sure about that If they're
an international student inuniversity, they're not going to
be able to study, Are they?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
covered under this program?
Oh, I don't know.
That's an interesting question.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I'm going to have to take a look at that.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Guys, we're going to find out and we're going to drop
it in the comments.
Because if they are funding, ifthey refuse to fund a student
who is enrolled with a privateprovider who is an Australian
citizen, but they will fund anoverseas student studying it in
the internet in in a university,I will, I will call, I will, I
(28:56):
will call it, I will call it.
Absolutely, I will 100% denotethat.
Um, but yeah, I mean, look, Ilook for students that are
studying in qualifications, um,that are super desperately
needed by industry.
I'm all for providing somesupport for placement Like those
(29:17):
placements can be hard.
Those placements, you know youoften have to do weeks and weeks
at a time, so you've got togive up your income in order to
be able to go through and dothis.
And to me, if it's in an areathat are like that, we
desperately need support.
So, you know, nursing some ofthe trades you know, aged care,
(29:41):
things like that, where you knowwe need more nurses, we need
more carers.
You know we need more tradies.
I'm honestly for putting moremoney into all of those sorts of
things.
We need more tradies.
I'm honestly for putting moremoney into all of those sorts of
things, um, because, like ournation desperately needs them,
we desperately need more ofthese qualified people.
I think for any of theseshortages.
You know it should be about.
(30:02):
You know the like.
If it's in that particular areathat we need, then let's like,
let's fund it, fund it.
I fully see the importance ofthe arts and everything like
that, but if we have a limitedbucket of funding, then at this
particular point in our country,looking at where the world is
(30:26):
and looking at the bigchallenges that we have, looking
at the big challenges that wehave, we should be putting money
into whatever it takes to getmore nurses, doctors, engineers,
tradies, you know, age carers.
That's what we need.
People working as right.
Like so the more people we canget doing that, and we need
(30:48):
trainers who are able to teachpeople how to do that.
So, like, that's where weshould be putting our money into
right is getting those things.
Yeah, you know we've donestupid shit all the time and I
don't understand why.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
We're great at wasting money.
It's also been noted thatthere's a high dropout rate for
students who have to undertakework placement because they
can't afford it.
They can't afford to leavetheir other job while they're
doing work placement.
I know my son.
He's completing RN, he's doinga university degree as a
(31:23):
registered nurse and every timehe had to go do work placement
he was poor.
He couldn't pay for his billsbecause he had to do his work
placement and leave his payingjob whilst he did that and that
causes a very high dropout rate.
We see the same when it comesto AIN, which is the assistant
(31:48):
in nursing, which is a lot ofthe aged care, community
services and disabilities.
We see the same thing.
They have to drop out or theycan't complete their work
placement requirements becausethey've got to get a paid job.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Yeah, I mean, and then a lot of them are just
unfortunately in a positionwhereby they're going to be
doing their placement during theday and they're going to be
working a second job and a thirdjob nights and weekends.
So I will.
I did just do a quick searchand it does look like
international students are noteligible.
So I will say there was somegovernment rationality I did the
(32:21):
same.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
So for 1 July it's only for domestic students, not
international, and it's teaching, midwifery and social work
placements yeah and look we need.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I mean, do we need more actual teachers?
Like is, is that a thing thatwe need?
Is that that's because of thehigh dropout right?
Speaker 1 (32:44):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
And school teachers are thesame when they do work placement
, that's when they get a highdropout rate oh, yeah, it's.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
I mean it's because you've got to do it for a whole
term, like you know.
So it's it's three months.
Um, I did my work placement.
I was pregnant with mikey, um,so I, yeah, I literally I was
smashing it at that particularpoint in time.
I doubled up my work scheduleto try and pop out the placement
before I popped out the kid.
(33:11):
Um, but yeah, like it's, it'svery full-on.
So I do support it in areasthat we, we do desperately need
it.
I just think that we're justwe're so we're really silly with
how we use the austral, likewith how we use australian
dollars, like our governmentjust doesn't and it, look, it's,
(33:32):
it's irrelevant, like, look,I'm not going to say it's, it's
just labor, because it's labor,it's liberal, it's.
You know, it is unfortunate thatI don't think it matters who's
in government we have like arethe people that we have that
come and work with the fromgovernment in the vet sector.
The last person that we hadthat like seemed to me to be
(33:55):
really passionate about helpingall providers was simon
birmingham.
Um, I loved him as a minister.
He was super approachable.
He had a very good level ofrespect for both the public and
the private systems.
Um, he was really willing tolisten like super willing to
listen and understand what theproblems and the private systems
and listened.
He was really willing to listenlike super willing to listen
and understand what the problemsand the challenges were.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
And he actually understood education too?
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah, for sure, but he was the last minister that we
had, and I'm definitely datingmyself in saying that.
But, like you know, since thenwe haven't.
And we have way too many um,both federal and state ministers
who just have such a poor likethe words dodgy rto just falls
(34:42):
out of their mouth, and anytimeanything's positive, it's about
TAFE, and I'm like there's justso much, there is so much good
that is done in our sector.
Stop talking about the problem.
We all know the problems arethere.
Ascor is there dealing with theproblems?
I mean, how many qualificationshave they cancelled Like they
are taking and RTOs have beenshut down.
(35:03):
Seriously, at the moment, right, like we've got RTOs being
given $20,000 fines for notsubmitting their AVAT-MIS.
Right, at the moment, I've hadso many RTOs approach me and be
like we got a $20,000 fine.
We don't have any students andI'm like oh dolls.
Right, we've got RTOs beingcancelled the moment that they
(35:25):
don't do a year's worth oftraining.
Right, like they've literallyregistered and like a year out
they're like you haven'tsubmitted your avid, you've
submitted in your event.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
So therefore we've taken you out to your
registration from you.
I'm like oh, meanwhile we'vehad we've been had no government
funding, we haven't been ableto find any students, and now
we've got a new legislativechange and we've got to update
all of our documents.
So we're a little busy rightnow yeah, new training packages
coming out.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
There's a whole new unit format coming out for those
training packages.
We're getting rid ofperformance elements and
criteria like elements andperformance criteria.
After that we're going to havethe AVEMIS change.
After that we're going to havethis supposed AQTF change, which
is actually probably nevergoing to happen.
But whatevs right, like RTOs,deal with a lot guys.
Government seriously give us afucking break, like just a tiny
(36:12):
one.
We work really hard.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
We work really really hard and we're trying to do our
best um, yeah, we're, like youknow, to get automatic with uh
registration cancelled justbecause you haven't had the dark
, you haven't had the students,and not even asking why and what
, what is the background?
Speaker 2 (36:32):
yeah, it's just gone, gone bye that came to me when
they got those letters a coupleof weeks ago, as to like oh we
know that you've put in yourapplication.
We know you've been waiting for18 months.
You're now going to have toagree to the new standards or
we'll give you back your eightthousand dollars.
And I had providers sittingthere going we've, we've paid.
(36:54):
We've paid seventy fivethousand dollars because we have
to have a facility that wehaven't been able to use.
Like eight thousand dollarsmeans nothing to us and all the
resources and the trainers andassessors $50,000 in this
process and I'm sitting theregoing no, no, I know I
understand they don't care.
(37:15):
Like this is.
You know they don't care?
Sorry, they don't care.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah, unfortunately, the government do not know how
to run a business and I oftensee this where they just don't
understand how an RTO runs andthat, in particular, a private
RTO where you've got to meet allof the other legislative
requirements when it comes toindustrial relations and WHS and
(37:41):
you know go on and on and oninsurance and all that sort of
stuff and how they've got tomanage all of that, as well as
the marketing, as well as youknow building a brand for their
RTO.
They don't understand like, yes, compliance is a component, but
we cannot survive on compliancealone as an RTO.
(38:05):
There is so much more that weneed to do.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Yeah, like the only equipment, like.
So I keep chickens, keepchickens right, because I live
in far north queensland.
I'm a crazy person who livesfar now, so I keep chickens and
like every time I introduce likenew chickens, right, we've got
like these little baby chickensthat are running around and they
just get the kick like the crapkicked out of them right by
like all of the other chickens.
So it's always like the tiniestchicken that gets the hardest
(38:29):
time and I'm always like you'relike my latios, like you just,
but they just keep on running,like they keep on running and
they keep on trying, right, butI'm like you're just getting the
crap kicked out of me, you poorlittle things, and you just
keep going.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Oh, that's such a good analogy.
I like that.
Some people are so fudge.
So yeah, before we close, I'mgoing to ask a question.
Okay, is the narrative aroundTAFE as being the backbone of
the vet sector outdated?
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Look okay.
So it's a hard.
That's a hard one for mebecause I know in my heart you
cannot take away tafe right andyou cannot take away private
rtos.
But I feel, like you know, whenwe say the backbone right, like
if you have the bones there butyou don't have the muscle to
like then connect and thetissues to connect all of the
(39:29):
bones, it it's useless.
And that's exactly what privateand public are like.
Like you 100% need both.
There is great, amazingtraining that happens in both
private and public RTOs.
We need public and private RTOs.
It's an ecosystem.
But exactly right, like withoutboth of them being healthy, we
(39:53):
start to see problems, and myconcern is is that I totally
understand that for yearsthere's been some real concerns
that the numbers in TAFE aredwindling and everything like
that.
I don't think it means that weswitch everything and this is
what I like.
This is what governments ingeneral do and again, it's it's,
you know, it's it's.
(40:13):
It doesn't matter what thegovernment is, um, it swings
like super far in one directionand so at the moment they're
kind of going, oh, tafe's introuble, like push everything
towards that.
And then you start to see thefact that, like, our little
private sector starts to dwindleand die and we see beautiful
little businesses thatunfortunately just turn around
(40:35):
and go.
I'm out like it's all too hard,and then what happens inevitably
is that the money then dries up.
Tape falls over because it can'tcope Tape falls over because it
can't cope and you know, theindustries start to get really
shitty because they're notgetting the training that they
need.
And then it swings right.
(40:57):
And then the government goes ohshit, and the government swings
.
The only time I've seen itwhere it works well is where
industry chooses to self-correct.
And so my advice to RTOs at themoment is go and take your
programs and go and talk withNew South Wales TAFE and see if
you can work out third partyarrangements, because I know
they do it right, all of theTAFEs do it.
And my advice if you're NewSouth Wales TAFE and you're
(41:20):
sitting here and you're going,holy shit, we've got a lot of
money, we don't have thetrainers, we don't have the
facilities, go and talk with theRTOs in the regional areas
where you don't have thetrainers and where you don't
have the facilities and youalready have it organized.
Progress with those private RTOs.
Guys.
The only way that we're goingto make this work like if we get
, we're relying on government tomake this work.
(41:41):
It ain't going to happen, right.
That daddy government is notgoing to fix this problem, right
?
Only way we're going to fixthis problem is if we go out and
we implement the solutionsourselves, and that is.
It's not about private versuspublic, it's not about TAFE
versus whatever.
We all need to be workingtogether to help the students
and industry get the outcomesthat we need we need to
(42:03):
collaborate together to have abetter education just like you
know, rto consultants don't needto war.
We can all fight together likethere's plenty of RTOs to save.
That's right.
You know, it's exactly the samein the RTO market.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah .
And I love how we cancollaborate and be able to
discuss what's happening in theindustry sector, having a total
understanding of how it allworks.
And still, we're not enemies.
We collaborate, and that's whatthe government needs to do with
(42:39):
private providers as well asTAFE.
It should be a collaborationwhere and I'm going to go back
to that equitable funding, theequitable funding.
How can we work together?
I think that's the answer.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Yeah, 100 so there we go.
We just solved the vet crisis.
Guys, take our advice andeverything will be fine.
And what's next?
I'd like to talk about worldpeace yes, maybe we'll solve
that as well.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Yeah, I have a solution to that as well.
Thank you very much, Lauren,for joining me again today in
the RTO Superhero Podcast.
It's been fantastic talkingwith you again and I love how we
get to have this conversationand people get to join our
conversation and hear twoconsultants experienced in the
(43:33):
training industry talking shitpretty much.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
I love it.
I love it, let's do it againsoon?
Speaker 1 (43:41):
yes, certainly.
Thank you very much everyonefor joining us on the rto
superhero podcast and I lookforward to catching up with you
again soon.
Please check the show notes forthe changeorg link for the
petition.
The more we can get to sign it,the more we have a voice when
it comes to what happens in ourindustry sector.
(44:02):
Thank you, bye for now.
Awesome, that was good.
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