June 17, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode of the RTO Superhero Podcast, Angela Connell-Richards and co-host Maciek Fibrich unpack one of the most misunderstood aspects of the 2025 Standards for RTOs—Standard 2.2, with a laser focus on assessing Language, Literacy, Numeracy and Digital (LLND) skills prior to enrolment.
There’s been growing confusion in the VET sector:
🌀 Do RTOs need to buy expensive LLN and digital skills tools?
🌀 Does every course require digital assessments?
🌀 What’s the difference between a review and a formal assessment?
Angela and Maciek cut through the noise with practical insights, examples, and real-world discussion. They compare two very different units—HLTAID011 (Provide First Aid) and BSBINS501 (Implement Information and Knowledge Management Systems)—to explore how LLND requirements change based on the training product and delivery mode.
✅ What you'll learn:
- How to interpret Standard 2.2 and align it with your enrolment process
- When digital literacy must be assessed—and when it’s not necessary
- Why First Aid is not the same as a Diploma unit (and how ASQA will likely treat them differently)
- How to tailor your LLND review to the training product, learner cohort, and delivery mode
- What your RTO must document to stay compliant
- Whether ChatGPT can help (spoiler: yes—but only if you know how to guide it!)
🎁 Bonus: Download your free LLND Suitability Planning Checklist from the show no
Join host Angela Connell-Richards as she opens each episode with a burst of insight and inspiration. Discover why compliance is your launchpad to success, not a limitation.
Connect with fellow RTO professionals in our free Facebook groups: the RTO Community and RTO Job Board. Visit rtosuperhero.au/groups to join today.
Ready to elevate your RTO? Join our Superhero Membership community and gain access to expert resources, training, and personalised support to help you thrive.
Wrap up with gratitude and guidance. Subscribe, leave a review, and join our community as we continue supporting your compliance journey in vocational education.
Thank you for tuning in to the RTO Superhero Podcast!
We’re excited to have you join us as we focus on the Revised Standards for RTOs in 2025. Together, we’ll explore key changes, compliance strategies, and actionable insights to help your RTO thrive under the new standards.
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📢 Want even more compliance insights? Subscribe to our EduStream YouTube Channel for our FAQ series on the New Standards for RTOs 2025! 🎥
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Angela Connell-Richards (00:09):
All right, Welcome back to the RTO
Superhero Podcast.
Today we're untangling one ofthe most misunderstood standards
in the 2025 framework Standard2.2, specifically around
language literacy, numeracy anddigital skills Maycheck.
We've had a lot of questions onthis on our forum from members,
(00:33):
but you've also heard about it.
I've heard about it.
There's been a lot of differenttypes of information that is
coming out with regards tolanguage, language literacy and
digital skills, so it's clearthat many RTOs are still unsure
of what is required and whetherthey need to go out and purchase
(00:54):
a fancy LLN or digital literacytools for their students.
What do you think?
Maciek Fibrich (01:02):
Let's just call it difference in opinions, right
?
Look, as with anything in thisindustry, if you ask 10 people
the same question, you only get25 different answers, and that's
no different here.
So I mean, we're specificallygoing to unpack, as you said,
(01:23):
2.2 today.
Specifically going to unpack,as you said, uh, 2.2 today and
um and there's.
But yeah, like you said,there's been a lot, of, a lot of
discussion online, um, a lot ofchats, no doubt, between your
clients and my clients and andso forth, and my opinion is that
not that much has changed ineverything that we've spoken
(01:45):
about already about the LLNN,other than they've just added
the digital literacy componentto it.
A lot of people are talkingabout that.
You have to do a formalassessment prior to enrolment,
and I just don't think that'snecessarily true in every
instance.
Angela Connell-Richards (02:06):
Yeah, yeah, and I agree with that as
well, and we're going to belooking at two very different
units today and identifying whatis the difference between, in
particular, looking at digitalskills with those two units.
So, at its core, yep at itscore.
Maciek Fibrich (02:23):
I was just going to say, yeah, go for it go.
Angela Connell-Richards (02:28):
You go, because this might lead on to
what you're going to say anyway.
So it's called standard 2.2says that rtos must, before
enrollment, review the learner'sskills and competencies and
advise whether the trainingproduct is suitable.
That includes language,literacy, numeracy and digital
skills.
Not after enrolment, nothalfway through, but before they
(02:50):
even pay.
But what?
Does that really mean.
Maciek Fibrich (02:54):
Yeah, so again, as it says, so standard 2.2 from
that area, vet students areadvised prior to enrolment, as
you just said, about thesuitability of the training
product for them, taking intoaccount the students' skills and
competencies.
That hasn't really changedbetween the 15 and 25 standards.
We've always been requiredunder Standard 5, 5.1, 5.2, to
(03:17):
inform the student about thesuitability, which is again,
without going on a tangent, whyI've always been a supporter of
using the word application forenrolment as opposed to
enrolment form, and I think weshare that similar vibe.
Let's call it that.
And then it says the NVR RTOdemonstrates taking into account
the requirements of thetraining product.
Now, that's really criticalthere.
(03:38):
Taking into account therequirements of the training
product, which is why we'll lookat two different units later on
of the training product, whichis why we'll look at two
different units later on.
It has procedures in place,again critical.
So we're talking about aprocedure that takes into
account the product type thatyou're enrolling students for.
So an RTO may have differentprocedures for different
(03:59):
products and a product, ifanyone doesn't know, may be a
qualification, it might be askill set, it might be a unit of
competency or, if they're stillusing modules.
A module, so a procedure, mustreview, prior to enrolment, the
skills competencies of theprospective student, vet student
which again we've often done,whether that's using the event
reporting questions or otherquestionnaire and then so
(04:24):
including the language, literacy, numeracy proficiency and
digital literacy and then, basedon the outcome of that review,
it provides advice to eachprospective vet student about
whether the training product issuitable.
Where I think that changes thegame for a lot of people is a
lot of people that want tobypass the let's call it, the
(04:45):
interview stage or the checkingstage, by doing direct enrolment
and start whenever.
That is something that I thinka lot of RTOs may get unstuck
with, where they say, yeah,enrol and start at any time,
versus how do you address that?
Based on the outcome, itprovides advice to a prospective
(05:07):
student.
What are your thoughts?
Angela Connell-Richards (05:09):
My thoughts around that is,
ensuring that we're preparingthe students prior to enrolment
for successful completion, andthat's where I see we're
assessing the students prior toenrolment on whether they're,
firstly, suitable forundertaking this training and
secondly is would theysuccessfully, with their current
(05:31):
skills and knowledge,successfully be able to complete
the training?
And, in particular, when we'relooking at language, literacy
and digital skills, do they havethe required skills in order to
complete the assessment side ofthe training?
Maciek Fibrich (05:46):
Correct.
So, once we've done the reviewthough and I'm using the word
review versus assess, because,again, just to differentiate
what it talks about in thestandards but it then says,
based on the outcome of thereview, so you have to have a
procedure in place to review.
And then it says, based on theoutcome of the review, so you
(06:08):
have to have a procedure inplace to review.
And then it says, based on theoutcome of the review, it being
the RTO, provides advice to eachprospective vet student about
whether the training product issuitable for them.
So where RTOs have that directenrolment process and this is
again prior to enrolment how dowe ensure that they are?
Angela Connell-Richar (06:28):
compliant and, for me, what I would
recommend to and I do recommendto our clients.
It can be a number of things.
The review can be a languageliteracy and numeracy assessment
a language literacy andnumeracy assessment.
It could be part of yourenrolment form.
So you have some questions thatyou ask within the enrolment
(06:52):
form.
It could be required skills andknowledge prior to enrolment,
such as they may need to hold acertain qualification, or they
may need to have had a certainnumber of years of experience
within an industry sector, or itmay be that they've undertaken
some professional development.
(07:12):
So it's really reviewing theirskills and knowledge against the
unit of competency or thequalification, the training
product that they're going to beundertaking.
Maciek Fibrich (07:24):
Yeah, 100% agree .
But where I think a lot of RTOsmay fall over is going to be
that based on the outcome of thereview.
So, looking at 2.2b, where itsays, based on the outcome of
the review, it provides adviceto each prospective vet student.
So where I'm seeing that thesestandards are taking is that the
(07:46):
enrolment process becomes amuch more tailored approach as
opposed to a straight out enrolwhenever you want type scenario.
That's where I'm thinking thatthere may be a difference in
interpretation between auditorsor assessors, ASCA assessors,
quality assessors or there mightbe changes to RTO's processes
(08:09):
where they've, according to 2.2b, they need to provide advice to
each prospective student basedon the outcome of the review.
So I'm going to suggest that aquality process would be you
capture that information as partof the application for
enrolment, Then you review it inwhichever way your system is
(08:31):
built for, and again, it may bea simple review if it's a unit
of competency or it may be amuch more complex review if it's
a diploma or higher or just alonger duration course.
But then you say to the studenthey, we've reviewed your
application, we think you'resuitable for this.
And here's, you know, almostusing the CRICOS process.
Here's your letter of offer orhere's your acceptance email to
(08:54):
say we've accepted yourapplication.
Angela Connell-Richards (08:57):
Yeah, we're certainly seeing that as
well and we've actually seenthat across the board with a lot
of the new standards.
It is very similar to theNational Code and the
requirements under internationaleducation.
We're actually taking some ofthe documents that we've created
for international education andbringing them now into domestic
market, because we've seenthere was other areas like
(09:20):
performance monitoring.
That also falls under supportservices.
But also, how are you ensuringthat the student is keeping on
track with their studies as well?
Maciek Fibrich (09:33):
Yeah, correct, and that intervention, that sort
of early intervention whilstit's not terminology that's
being used, but that intent I'mseeing in standard two as well.
So we spoke about the wholeconcept of those literacy and
digital assessment providersthat are out there and they do a
great job for what they do.
(09:54):
So I guess the question is doesevery provider need to go out
there and spend money on alanguage, literacy and digital
assessment robot or a device, oris there something that they
can do without having to go tothat expense as well, even
though you know you could classit as an investment into the
process?
Angela Connell-Richards (10:14):
Yeah, and that leads really well into
where the next step I wanted togo into is how RTOs are
currently handling theirlanguage, literacy and numeracy
and what do they need to do.
So let's talk about practiceversus policy.
I've seen so many RTOs rely onbasic language literacy and
numeracy quizzes and call it aday, but if there's no follow-up
(10:40):
, no context and no advice givento the student, is that
compliant?
Maciek Fibrich (10:46):
Well, I would say no because it clearly says,
as part of 2.2b, that based onthe outcome of the review, you
provide advice to the students.
So having it in place is onething, but your procedure must
allow them for that review andthat almost feedback, that cycle
of information coming to andthen going back to the student
(11:07):
to say, yep, we think you aresuitable for this course or no,
we don't think you're suitablebased on your language interest
and digital assessment.
Angela Connell-Richards (11:16):
Okay, so that leads really well into
suitability, and what does thatreally mean?
So let's be clear.
This standard isn't aboutexcluding people.
It's about helping them tosucceed.
It's helping them to and it'shelping the RTO to really
identify is this studentsuitable?
Are they going to be able tocomplete the training
(11:37):
successfully?
If a student isn't ready eitheracademically or practically,
our job is to give them informedadvice.
Maybe they need a differenttraining product, maybe they
need support, but they deserveto know that before they hand
over any money.
Maciek Fibrich (11:56):
Correct, and that's ultimately what these
standards are very clear in,especially around that.
Standard two is about prior toan enrolment or handing over any
money, and I think it even usesthat word in a couple of the
standards.
So, and I think that's a goodthing.
Angela Connell-Richards (12:14):
Yeah, I think so too.
I think whenever an RTO issetting up a student for success
over just getting anotherenrolment, they're going to have
much better outcomes.
And then that from there, likecompletion ratings.
Of course we want a highcompletion rating, but we also
(12:35):
want to get a good branding outthere of your RTO and if you've
got successful completionratings because you've set up
that student for success, you'regoing to get more enrolments
organically, I believe, fromthere as well.
Maciek Fibrich (12:47):
Yeah look, I agree.
My only concern, I guess, withthis standard is for the shorter
course providers, whether it'sfirst aid, white card et cetera,
because, again, the standards Ithink the intent is always
never to be fixed so that itallows for movement between
(13:09):
small mother, dad, mum providerversus a large TAFE or larger
multinational organisationthat's an RTO.
I think that this standard maycome into question at audits
(13:40):
moving forward, especiallyaround the short course mark and
whether ASQA is sort of turninga bit of course, or $40 for a
RSA or white card, there's nobuffer there for an
administrative processfinancially to justify a review
and a response type process.
So it will be interesting tosee how this plays out over the
(14:00):
coming few months once thestandards come into play.
Angela Connell-Richards (14:04):
Yeah, and watch this space.
That's where we really need tolook at this.
Okay, so let's take a practicalexample.
We said we're going to look atsome different units.
One is HLTAID011, which isprovide first aid.
What kind of language, literacyand numeracy digital skills
(14:25):
would we reasonably need toassess for this training product
?
What are your thoughts aroundfirst aid and, in particular,
digital skills?
Maciek Fibrich (14:37):
Yeah, look, it's an interesting one, isn't it?
Because I've seen I've been afirst aider for most of my adult
life, even junior life, and asa volunteer firefighter we use
first aid as a concept ofpreserving life until
professionals arrive, beingparamedics or hospital care.
(14:59):
So, you know, nowadays and Ionly recently did the refresher
for first aid there's really notmuch requirement for literacy
or counting more than to 30,based on CPR, compressions and
so forth, and there's almostzero digital requirements,
because the only thing thatyou're really doing is using an
(15:21):
AED or a defib and that'sverbally talking to you in terms
of instructions.
So again, when we talk aboutlimiting access to language
literacy or to first aid vialanguage literacy, numeracy, it
goes against the grain of whatfirst aid is all about, and that
is teaching anyone and everyonethe fundamentals of preserving
(15:43):
life until professionals arrive.
So you sort of you know you'vepicked a good unit there,
because I would argue to say, ifsomeone is struggling with
language literacy, numeracy, aslong as they can verbalize uh,
what, what it is as part of theassessment requirements, it
would almost be a unit thatyou'd want everyone to undertake
.
And so how do you balance that?
Angela Connell-Richards (16:06):
Yeah, and it's really that basic
verbal communication, basicliteracy, so being able to read,
like first aid forms ordocuments within a first aid kit
or maybe those sort of things,and then also that basic
numeracy as well, to be able tocount compressions, and I have
(16:28):
always said, but again,compressions could be in a
different language, like ifEnglish is not your first
language, what's stoppingsomeone counting in Arabic or in
Polish, my language, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agreewith that as well, and I
actually believe that everyoneshould do first aid, I think it
should be something that everycitizen who really, really wants
(16:55):
to be able to be part of acommunity should do first aid
and I've always updated my firstaid qualifications over the
years from high school because,not for any other reason other
than that I know first aid and Ican help anybody in an
emergency, and I've had to useit on a number of occasions.
Maciek Fibrich (17:16):
Look, and so this is where you know, again,
obviously there's tens ofthousands of people that do
first aid every month, right,and so as a first aid provider
whether it's St John's or aprivate first aid or, you know,
an ambulance service this again2.2b may cause some concerns for
(17:37):
people because it's like, well,we don't want to make the
enrolment process challengingand difficult to the point where
they go away.
We don't want to have that as abarrier to entry, but we also
need to obviously align to that.
So again, yeah, I think you'reright.
What's this space?
I think I'll definitely begetting.
Once ASQA has theirunderstanding, I'll be seeking
(18:01):
advice from some of their seniorpeople to go okay, how do you
intend to audit this for thesetypes of programs?
Angela Connell-Richards (18:11):
Okay, so let's go with what I've heard
in the marketplace.
Do we need digital skillsassessment for first aid?
Maciek Fibrich (18:22):
digital skills assessment for first aid, I
would argue that it depends onthe delivery mode of the program
.
So if you're doing pre-learningprior to the program, so this
now is moving away from theindividual unit of competency,
but looking at what it talksabout is your cohort and the
program.
But looking at what it talksabout is your cohort and the
(18:45):
program.
So my suggestion would be isthat if we're delivering the
pre-learning via an onlineplatform, which is often what a
lot of providers do to shortenthe program, then part of that
enrolment process should be thebasic questions do you have a
computer, do you have aninternet connection, do you know
how to log into a browser?
And some basic questions likethat, and they are then reviewed
(19:07):
.
I think we've just sorted outthe problem right.
So you still ask thosequestions as part of the
application process, whoever'sprocessing the application, even
if it's a logic online form.
If you tick that the answer isno, then it refers you for
further assessment, whereas ifyou tick yes, then it allows you
to do it and therefore you'vegot almost a review process by
(19:30):
default being in the system.
That could work.
Angela Connell-Richards (19:34):
So in a snapshot, it's not only looking
at the unit of competency andthe requirements of the units,
it's your delivery mode.
So how are you delivering thatunit of competency as well, or
training product?
Maciek Fibrich (19:47):
And, as you and I have been just verbalising
this again challenging thestatus quo, which is what I sort
of love doing it doesn't talkabout that.
A physical person has to reviewthis right.
So here we are, using digitaland technology to go.
(20:18):
Okay, based on the responsesthat don't have technological
skills to log into a browser,please contact the office or
please, you know, look elsewherefor a product that's suitable
for you, or something alongthose lines.
Angela Connell-Richards (20:30):
Or here's an instructional video on
how to log in and the process.
Maciek Fibrich (20:36):
Subject to them knowing how to access the video,
which, again, it's this loopcycle.
Angela Connell-Richards (20:41):
But yes , yeah, you know, maybe yes, so
it's making sure that you havethis within your training and
assessment strategy.
Maciek Fibrich (20:48):
Yes, strategy document marketing information
again.
So looking at Standard 2.1,making sure that that's clearly
outlined, as well as making surethat your procedures are in
place for this assessmentprocess within your RTO.
Angela Connell-Richards (21:03):
Yeah, yeah, certainly I totally agree
with all of that.
Maciek Fibrich (21:07):
Yeah, I think there's room there yeah.
Angela Connell-Richards (21:09):
Yeah, now let's look at the total
opposite extreme.
Looking at a unit BSB INS 501,implement information and
knowledge management systems.
What language, literacy andnumeracy and digital skills may
need to come into consideration?
Here is really looking at thatunit of competency.
(21:30):
There's a lot more.
It's a high-level literacy andwriting skills needed for
documentation and policycreation, but also you're going
to need to have a strong digitalliteracy skills, including
being able to navigateinformation systems, databases,
communication tech, and you willneed so.
(21:52):
When you think about this unitof competency, what type of LLND
do you think you would need inthat area?
What type of LLND?
Maciek Fibrich (22:01):
do you think you would need in that area?
Yeah, look, 100%, you're right.
And again it comes back to thecohort.
You know, judging by the code,I believe this would be
something that would beappropriate at a diploma level
type qualification.
So you know, whenever we'relooking at those types of
qualifications, we're wanting tomake sure that, yeah, we're not
(22:23):
setting people up to fail.
So it's unlikely that.
Well, this unit may be deliveredon its own, but it's probably
more delivered as part of aprogram saying yes, uh, rather
than just having a five minuteenrollment process like you
would for an individual unit,like first aid or white card,
(22:44):
there would be some depth in theenrollment, in the application
process, and a review where it'slike okay, where, what is your
prior experience?
Because, again, a diploma ofbusiness or a diploma of quality
auditing or any of those typesof qualifications don't have
embedded lower qualifications,for example, like hospitality or
(23:05):
beauty therapy, et cetera,whereas a diploma of beauty
therapy almost embeds a Cert III, a Cert IV and a diploma in it.
So here again we're looking ata level of okay, are your
literacy, numeracy and digitalskills at a level that would
support your completion?
And then this is where an RTOmay choose to have a procedure
(23:31):
where it says as part of ourapplication process, we're then
going to send you a link to anassessment system, platform,
whichever one you go for, toallow for a streamlined
assessing process.
And so these are times where Ido think investing in a platform
(23:52):
100% makes life easier, becausethey're prepared for that.
And again, you know my sloganis do what you do best,
outsource the rest.
And so if you can outsourcethat assessment process,
integrating it to your enrolmentstructure, then that may help
you, rather than trying to do itmanually.
Angela Connell-Richards (24:10):
And then what I would also recommend
, because it is a review process.
We're not assessing theirskills, we're reviewing it could
be required skills andknowledge.
They might need to hold a Cert4 in business, or they may need
to have a certain years ofexperience in the workplace
(24:31):
using a variety of digitalskills, which they could
demonstrate through a resume andprofessional development
certificates that they'vecompleted.
Maciek Fibrich (24:40):
And you've raised a very valid point there.
We can't just rely on an LLNDas the basis of the review,
because it does specificallytalk about taking into account
the requirements of the trainingproduct.
It has procedures in place toreview, prior to NOM, the skills
and competencies of theprospective student, including
(25:00):
their language literacy andnumeracy proficiency and digital
literacy.
So RTOs must remember that it'snot just the LLND that we're
focusing on here.
As you said, it's what existingskills, competencies or
proficiencies they may have thatallows them to do this unit or
course successfully.
Angela Connell-Richards (25:20):
Yeah, yeah, that allows them to do
this unit or course successfully.
Yeah, yeah, and it takes meback to when I was delivering.
I was delivering Cert 2 to adiploma in business in a year.
Can't do that anymore now, butI was delivering that over a
year and I was taking recentschool leavers from that
Certificate 2 to the diploma andit was very, very difficult
(25:43):
because Cert 2 and 3 was easyfor them, cert 4 was moderately
good, but once I got them to thediploma I was really dragging
them through, because you can'tin a year.
They're not working in theworkplace, they're only learning
what they're learning in theclassroom.
And those digital skills.
(26:03):
Yes, they may be able to doyour basic Word, excel,
powerpoint and things like that,but it's applying those skills
within the workplace.
And that's where I struggledwith the students because they
didn't understand in the realworld how to apply those skills.
Maciek Fibrich (26:20):
It's a concept of experiential learning, right?
So learning from experience, bypracticing and applying, and
you know I call it the four A's.
So we need to have the abilityto acquire the skill and
knowledge, absorb it, so time toabsorb, which is where that
volume of learning and the AQFdoes play a part.
Angela Connell-Richards (26:39):
Apply, so practice, the skills and then
assess On a number of occasions.
Maciek Fibrich (26:43):
Yeah, so it's again.
So that's why you know, acquire, absorb, apply and assess.
And if you do that and I thinkthe standards sort of spell that
out quite well, that you knowyou need to make sure that
there's time for students topractice their skills, and again
, not just once.
Angela Connell-Richards (27:03):
Yes.
Maciek Fibrich (27:03):
Because you know we bring in that without
opening up Pandora's box here.
But you know we haven't spokena lot about dimensions of
competency, which seem to havesort of gone by the wayside a
lot.
But again, transferability ofskill, task skills, task
management skills, contingencymanagement skills, et cetera,
you know they form part of thedimensions of competency.
Angela Connell-Richards (27:23):
Yeah, and I've seen it now in
particular, when you look at thehospitality industry and
commercial cookery, and beingable to apply the skills on a
number of occasions is often notfeasible because of the costs
of it.
Correct and I've discussed thisrecently like just because
(27:43):
you've learnt how to cook asouffle once and then you go
straight into an assessment tocook a souffle, it is very, very
different from applying thatskill on a number of occasions.
Maciek Fibrich (27:56):
Or pouring a draft ale versus a Guinness
right Two very different beersand having that ability to
transfer those skills, but alsowhich?
Again, you know, again we'reopening up Pandora's box of
credit transfers and so forth.
But it really is about ensuringthat students can work in a
different environment, butwithout going overboard as well.
(28:17):
Yeah, you know you're not goingto teach a student to use 10
different types of defibs, butyou're going to get them to use
one.
But tell them that the others,how the others work, you know so
yeah, and what are thevariances um?
Angela Connell-Richards (28:30):
that there may be.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So let's look at the risks andthe compliance gaps if we're
going to be helping our audiencewith understanding this.
What do you believe are thebiggest risks that RTOs will be
facing when it comes to Standard2.2 and language, literacy,
numeracy and digital skills?
Maciek Fibrich (28:51):
As I said earlier, I think the biggest
risk is going to be to theproviders that are focusing on
the sales of direct entrythrough an enrolment process, an
online enrolment process, andthis is not new Again.
The standards have always beenthere prior to enrolment or
(29:14):
commencement of study.
Whichever comes first was theexisting wording, and so I've
always been an advocate of usingthe term apply for enrollment,
which then doesn't give the uhthe the sense that I've got an
automatic entry into the program.
That is an application process.
So from my perspective, thebiggest risk is failing to
(29:35):
assess a student's um existingskills and knowledge, uh,
whether that's through theenrolment form or through
another questionnaire, andchoosing not to review their
language, literacy, numeracy anddigital skills.
Through whichever method youuse, be whatever's appropriate
for that product and yourdelivery approach.
They're the probably two thingsthat especially around 2.2, is
(29:59):
going to cause issues, as wellas not assessing the student's
ability to access particulartypes of, say, physical
resources that might be requiredto complete that training.
So if you don't talk about theneed to have a computer, because
we assume that everyone's got adevice, but we can't make that
(30:20):
assumption- no, we can't,certainly not.
Angela Connell-Richards (30:22):
So how can RTOs put all this into a
simple, scalable process?
Maciek Fibrich (30:28):
easy ask chat gpt?
No, don't.
I look you and I play in ai somuch and we know that it doesn't
get it right.
Look, um, the honestly the bestway, and I've just spent the
last couple of months, like youand like everyone else, putting
uh appropriate materialstogether for new applicants and
existing rtos existing rtos,really, without upsetting
(30:55):
colleagues.
Don't go out there and buy asuite of generic documents,
right?
That's my opinion.
Angela Connell-Richards (31:01):
One thing I've seen is you
definitely need to have itspecifically written for the
training products that you aredelivering 100%.
Maciek Fibrich (31:10):
And just literally yesterday I was
reviewing for a client theirpolicy around standard one and
the fundamental thing is, youknow they deliver a unit of
competency, but within theirpolicy they talk about
qualifications, skill sets andaccredited courses and I'm like,
why, like you know, make itrelevant to your business?
So how can you put a system?
(31:31):
Look, read the practice guides,read the outcome policy,
standards policy guidance thatwas released in march by dur.
Get an understanding of it.
The biggest failing of any rto,the ceo or manager, is
listening to the internet aboutmythical requirements that don't
exist.
Is point one.
(31:52):
And secondly, a really um adesire to want to understand the
standards.
So read the standards and thenseek advice from people like
yourself or me.
Uh to go, can you explain howwe can interpret this and apply
it within our business?
Don't just go off what pub talkand and and chat groups and so
(32:15):
forth, because it's not alwaysright and neither is chat gpt um
.
Angela Connell-Richards (32:20):
However , in saying that, I think you
can use chat gpt, but you needto use it in a smart way.
Maciek Fibrich (32:28):
So yeah, you use ai as much as you can.
Both you and I are advocates ofAI.
100% Use AI.
But again, poo in, poo out,crap in, crap out.
If you haven't taught thesystem right, it's going to make
stuff up and, unless you'reprepared to fact check it, it's
going to come up with standardsthat don't exist.
(32:50):
It's going to come up withnumbering that doesn't exist and
it's going to make you looksilly.
Angela Connell-Richards (32:55):
Yeah, I've spent over three years
training mine, so it's quiteknowledgeable now.
But what I would recommend ifyou are going to use ChatGPT is
taking the unit or the trainingproduct.
So, whatever you're developing,go to traininggovau and upload
that into ChatGPT, as well asthe practice guides and the
(33:17):
standard for writing thelanguage, literacy and numeracy
and then getting ChatGPT to askyou questions based on that.
So it's not just here, it isnow.
Write me something, review allof this and then ask me any
further questions, as I am theindustry expert of how I could
develop a language, literacy andnumeracy tool based on what are
(33:40):
the requirements?
Maciek Fibrich (33:42):
As I say, it's not the Mona Lisa right, it's
not going to be a work of art bysimply getting it, but it's far
better than a blank canvas.
And if you've got yourframework, you say to it right,
as a starting point, I need youto do X, y, z and then use it.
Don't just don't think oneprompt's going to give you a
response.
Use it, advance it, expand onit, rewrite it use it like, use
(34:03):
it as a draft, but whatultimately it does for you?
It makes your life easier andfaster, but you still need to
have that base understanding,because if you don't, you're
going to produce rubbish.
Angela Connell-Richards (34:20):
Yeah, and you can't think that ChatGPT
is smarter than you when itcomes to your industry skills
and knowledge and your business?
Maciek Fibrich (34:24):
It doesn't know your business, right yeah.
So you need to be sure thatyou're aligning everything that
it produces within your context.
Angela Connell-Richards (34:32):
Yeah, they're a very skilled research
assistant, but you need to takethat research and then implement
it the best way for you andyour students.
Maciek Fibrich (34:42):
As I've said, it's the smartest, dumbest
intern you'll ever have.
Angela Connell-Richards (34:44):
Yes, yes, yes.
Okay, all right, this has beenreally good having a chat about
this, because I know it is anarea where a lot of people are
struggling.
Do they need to go out and buymaterials?
Essentially, the answer is youreally need to identify.
You'll learn a cohort.
What are their skills, existingskills and knowledge, the
(35:07):
training product, and whatskills and knowledge will they
need in order to successfullycomplete that training product?
Maciek Fibrich (35:16):
And also the volume of students that you're
trying to push through right.
Angela Connell-Richards (35:18):
Correct , yeah.
Maciek Fibrich (35:21):
If you've got 10 students a year, it really may
be just appropriate not to.
Angela Connell-Richards (35:28):
Yeah, yeah, whereas if you've got, you
know like I used to deliver aRSA class once or twice a week
and we would have 30 studentsper class for that, I would be
really looking at what are theso definitely need language
literacy and numeracy when itcomes to RSA Responsible Service
(35:51):
of Alcohol because they need tobe able to read signs and they
need to be able to measure, andthey also need to be able to
read body language signals aswell.
But when it comes to digital,signals Hang on.
Maciek Fibrich (36:04):
Are we adding emotional intelligence to LLNM?
Oh, dear God, Good thing.
Next thing you'll say we've gotto assess common sense.
Oh, yeah God, Good thing Nextthing you'll say we've got to
assess common sense.
Angela Connell-Richards (36:16):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Well, I don't think there's alot of common sense when it
comes to trying to deal withdrunk people, but anyway.
So if you're not sure where tostart, I've actually created a
checklist, a compliancechecklist for Standard 2.2 on
how you can map your language,literacy and numeracy, including
(36:37):
using ChatGPT for that as well,and really looking at what it's
diving into that who are yourlearner cohort, what are their
existing skills and knowledgeand what does the training
product require?
And they're the key areas thatyou need to really identify.
And do you need to go rush outand buy any software?
(36:59):
That's really up to you and itreally is up to the training
products that you have.
It doesn't stipulate anywherewithin the standard that you
must have a digital assessmenttool.
It just says that you arereviewing and setting the
student up for success.
Maciek Fibrich (37:16):
Yeah, I agree.
Angela Connell-Richards (37:18):
Yeah, thanks again, maytek.
This episode really clears thefog around language literacy and
numeracy To all of ourlisteners.
You can download our newlanguage literacy suitability
planning template from the shownotes and if you've still got
any questions, go to the rtocommunity on facebook.
We have a huge community on ourfacebook group that are asking
(37:42):
questions all the time, and it'soften where I get the content
for our future episodes of uh,of the rto superhero, because,
uh, they're asking questions allthe time.
It's a great place for me to gobecause I am able to answer
those questions through theforum, but also through our
podcast as well.
(38:03):
So until next time, staycompliant, stay confident and
keep empowering your learners.
There you go.
All right, Welcome back to the RTO
Superhero Podcast.
Today we're untangling one ofthe most misunderstood standards
in the 2025 framework Standard2.2, specifically around
language literacy, numeracy anddigital skills Maycheck.
We've had a lot of questions onthis on our forum from members,
(00:33):
but you've also heard about it.
I've heard about it.
There's been a lot of differenttypes of information that is
coming out with regards tolanguage, language literacy and
digital skills, so it's clearthat many RTOs are still unsure
of what is required and whetherthey need to go out and purchase
(00:54):
a fancy LLN or digital literacytools for their students.
What do you think?
Maciek Fibrich (01:02):
Let's just call it difference in opinions, right
?
Look, as with anything in thisindustry, if you ask 10 people
the same question, you only get25 different answers, and that's
no different here.
So I mean, we're specificallygoing to unpack, as you said,
(01:23):
2.2 today.
Specifically going to unpack,as you said, uh, 2.2 today and
um and there's.
But yeah, like you said,there's been a lot, of, a lot of
discussion online, um, a lot ofchats, no doubt, between your
clients and my clients and andso forth, and my opinion is that
not that much has changed ineverything that we've spoken
(01:45):
about already about the LLNN,other than they've just added
the digital literacy componentto it.
A lot of people are talkingabout that.
You have to do a formalassessment prior to enrolment,
and I just don't think that'snecessarily true in every
instance.
Angela Connell-Richards (02:06):
Yeah, yeah, and I agree with that as
well, and we're going to belooking at two very different
units today and identifying whatis the difference between, in
particular, looking at digitalskills with those two units.
So, at its core, yep at itscore.
Maciek Fibrich (02:23):
I was just going to say, yeah, go for it go.
Angela Connell-Richards (02:28):
You go, because this might lead on to
what you're going to say anyway.
So it's called standard 2.2says that rtos must, before
enrollment, review the learner'sskills and competencies and
advise whether the trainingproduct is suitable.
That includes language,literacy, numeracy and digital
skills.
Not after enrolment, nothalfway through, but before they
(02:50):
even pay.
But what?
Does that really mean.
Maciek Fibrich (02:54):
Yeah, so again, as it says, so standard 2.2 from
that area, vet students areadvised prior to enrolment, as
you just said, about thesuitability of the training
product for them, taking intoaccount the students' skills and
competencies.
That hasn't really changedbetween the 15 and 25 standards.
We've always been requiredunder Standard 5, 5.1, 5.2, to
(03:17):
inform the student about thesuitability, which is again,
without going on a tangent, whyI've always been a supporter of
using the word application forenrolment as opposed to
enrolment form, and I think weshare that similar vibe.
Let's call it that.
And then it says the NVR RTOdemonstrates taking into account
the requirements of thetraining product.
Now, that's really criticalthere.
(03:38):
Taking into account therequirements of the training
product, which is why we'll lookat two different units later on
of the training product, whichis why we'll look at two
different units later on.
It has procedures in place,again critical.
So we're talking about aprocedure that takes into
account the product type thatyou're enrolling students for.
So an RTO may have differentprocedures for different
(03:59):
products and a product, ifanyone doesn't know, may be a
qualification, it might be askill set, it might be a unit of
competency or, if they're stillusing modules.
A module, so a procedure, mustreview, prior to enrolment, the
skills competencies of theprospective student, vet student
which again we've often done,whether that's using the event
reporting questions or otherquestionnaire and then so
(04:24):
including the language, literacy, numeracy proficiency and
digital literacy and then, basedon the outcome of that review,
it provides advice to eachprospective vet student about
whether the training product issuitable.
Where I think that changes thegame for a lot of people is a
lot of people that want tobypass the let's call it, the
(04:45):
interview stage or the checkingstage, by doing direct enrolment
and start whenever.
That is something that I thinka lot of RTOs may get unstuck
with, where they say, yeah,enrol and start at any time,
versus how do you address that?
Based on the outcome, itprovides advice to a prospective
(05:07):
student.
What are your thoughts?
Angela Connell-Richards (05:09):
My thoughts around that is,
ensuring that we're preparingthe students prior to enrolment
for successful completion, andthat's where I see we're
assessing the students prior toenrolment on whether they're,
firstly, suitable forundertaking this training and
secondly is would theysuccessfully, with their current
(05:31):
skills and knowledge,successfully be able to complete
the training?
And, in particular, when we'relooking at language, literacy
and digital skills, do they havethe required skills in order to
complete the assessment side ofthe training?
Maciek Fibrich (05:46):
Correct.
So, once we've done the reviewthough and I'm using the word
review versus assess, because,again, just to differentiate
what it talks about in thestandards but it then says,
based on the outcome of thereview, so you have to have a
procedure in place to review.
And then it says, based on theoutcome of the review, so you
(06:08):
have to have a procedure inplace to review.
And then it says, based on theoutcome of the review, it being
the RTO, provides advice to eachprospective vet student about
whether the training product issuitable for them.
So where RTOs have that directenrolment process and this is
again prior to enrolment how dowe ensure that they are?
Angela Connell-Richar (06:28):
compliant and, for me, what I would
recommend to and I do recommendto our clients.
It can be a number of things.
The review can be a languageliteracy and numeracy assessment
a language literacy andnumeracy assessment.
It could be part of yourenrolment form.
So you have some questions thatyou ask within the enrolment
(06:52):
form.
It could be required skills andknowledge prior to enrolment,
such as they may need to hold acertain qualification, or they
may need to have had a certainnumber of years of experience
within an industry sector, or itmay be that they've undertaken
some professional development.
(07:12):
So it's really reviewing theirskills and knowledge against the
unit of competency or thequalification, the training
product that they're going to beundertaking.
Maciek Fibrich (07:24):
Yeah, 100% agree .
But where I think a lot of RTOsmay fall over is going to be
that based on the outcome of thereview.
So, looking at 2.2b, where itsays, based on the outcome of
the review, it provides adviceto each prospective vet student.
So where I'm seeing that thesestandards are taking is that the
(07:46):
enrolment process becomes amuch more tailored approach as
opposed to a straight out enrolwhenever you want type scenario.
That's where I'm thinking thatthere may be a difference in
interpretation between auditorsor assessors, ASCA assessors,
quality assessors or there mightbe changes to RTO's processes
(08:09):
where they've, according to 2.2b, they need to provide advice to
each prospective student basedon the outcome of the review.
So I'm going to suggest that aquality process would be you
capture that information as partof the application for
enrolment, Then you review it inwhichever way your system is
(08:31):
built for, and again, it may bea simple review if it's a unit
of competency or it may be amuch more complex review if it's
a diploma or higher or just alonger duration course.
But then you say to the studenthey, we've reviewed your
application, we think you'resuitable for this.
And here's, you know, almostusing the CRICOS process.
Here's your letter of offer orhere's your acceptance email to
(08:54):
say we've accepted yourapplication.
Angela Connell-Richards (08:57):
Yeah, we're certainly seeing that as
well and we've actually seenthat across the board with a lot
of the new standards.
It is very similar to theNational Code and the
requirements under internationaleducation.
We're actually taking some ofthe documents that we've created
for international education andbringing them now into domestic
market, because we've seenthere was other areas like
(09:20):
performance monitoring.
That also falls under supportservices.
But also, how are you ensuringthat the student is keeping on
track with their studies as well?
Maciek Fibrich (09:33):
Yeah, correct, and that intervention, that sort
of early intervention whilstit's not terminology that's
being used, but that intent I'mseeing in standard two as well.
So we spoke about the wholeconcept of those literacy and
digital assessment providersthat are out there and they do a
great job for what they do.
(09:54):
So I guess the question is doesevery provider need to go out
there and spend money on alanguage, literacy and digital
assessment robot or a device, oris there something that they
can do without having to go tothat expense as well, even
though you know you could classit as an investment into the
process?
Angela Connell-Richards (10:14):
Yeah, and that leads really well into
where the next step I wanted togo into is how RTOs are
currently handling theirlanguage, literacy and numeracy
and what do they need to do.
So let's talk about practiceversus policy.
I've seen so many RTOs rely onbasic language literacy and
numeracy quizzes and call it aday, but if there's no follow-up
(10:40):
, no context and no advice givento the student, is that
compliant?
Maciek Fibrich (10:46):
Well, I would say no because it clearly says,
as part of 2.2b, that based onthe outcome of the review, you
provide advice to the students.
So having it in place is onething, but your procedure must
allow them for that review andthat almost feedback, that cycle
of information coming to andthen going back to the student
(11:07):
to say, yep, we think you aresuitable for this course or no,
we don't think you're suitablebased on your language interest
and digital assessment.
Angela Connell-Richards (11:16):
Okay, so that leads really well into
suitability, and what does thatreally mean?
So let's be clear.
This standard isn't aboutexcluding people.
It's about helping them tosucceed.
It's helping them to and it'shelping the RTO to really
identify is this studentsuitable?
Are they going to be able tocomplete the training
(11:37):
successfully?
If a student isn't ready eitheracademically or practically,
our job is to give them informedadvice.
Maybe they need a differenttraining product, maybe they
need support, but they deserveto know that before they hand
over any money.
Maciek Fibrich (11:56):
Correct, and that's ultimately what these
standards are very clear in,especially around that.
Standard two is about prior toan enrolment or handing over any
money, and I think it even usesthat word in a couple of the
standards.
So, and I think that's a goodthing.
Angela Connell-Richards (12:14):
Yeah, I think so too.
I think whenever an RTO issetting up a student for success
over just getting anotherenrolment, they're going to have
much better outcomes.
And then that from there, likecompletion ratings.
Of course we want a highcompletion rating, but we also
(12:35):
want to get a good branding outthere of your RTO and if you've
got successful completionratings because you've set up
that student for success, you'regoing to get more enrolments
organically, I believe, fromthere as well.
Maciek Fibrich (12:47):
Yeah look, I agree.
My only concern, I guess, withthis standard is for the shorter
course providers, whether it'sfirst aid, white card et cetera,
because, again, the standards Ithink the intent is always
never to be fixed so that itallows for movement between
(13:09):
small mother, dad, mum providerversus a large TAFE or larger
multinational organisationthat's an RTO.
I think that this standard maycome into question at audits
(13:40):
moving forward, especiallyaround the short course mark and
whether ASQA is sort of turninga bit of course, or $40 for a
RSA or white card, there's nobuffer there for an
administrative processfinancially to justify a review
and a response type process.
So it will be interesting tosee how this plays out over the
(14:00):
coming few months once thestandards come into play.
Angela Connell-Richards (14:04):
Yeah, and watch this space.
That's where we really need tolook at this.
Okay, so let's take a practicalexample.
We said we're going to look atsome different units.
One is HLTAID011, which isprovide first aid.
What kind of language, literacyand numeracy digital skills
(14:25):
would we reasonably need toassess for this training product
?
What are your thoughts aroundfirst aid and, in particular,
digital skills?
Maciek Fibrich (14:37):
Yeah, look, it's an interesting one, isn't it?
Because I've seen I've been afirst aider for most of my adult
life, even junior life, and asa volunteer firefighter we use
first aid as a concept ofpreserving life until
professionals arrive, beingparamedics or hospital care.
(14:59):
So, you know, nowadays and Ionly recently did the refresher
for first aid there's really notmuch requirement for literacy
or counting more than to 30,based on CPR, compressions and
so forth, and there's almostzero digital requirements,
because the only thing thatyou're really doing is using an
(15:21):
AED or a defib and that'sverbally talking to you in terms
of instructions.
So again, when we talk aboutlimiting access to language
literacy or to first aid vialanguage literacy, numeracy, it
goes against the grain of whatfirst aid is all about, and that
is teaching anyone and everyonethe fundamentals of preserving
(15:43):
life until professionals arrive.
So you sort of you know you'vepicked a good unit there,
because I would argue to say, ifsomeone is struggling with
language literacy, numeracy, aslong as they can verbalize uh,
what, what it is as part of theassessment requirements, it
would almost be a unit thatyou'd want everyone to undertake
.
And so how do you balance that?
Angela Connell-Richards (16:06):
Yeah, and it's really that basic
verbal communication, basicliteracy, so being able to read,
like first aid forms ordocuments within a first aid kit
or maybe those sort of things,and then also that basic
numeracy as well, to be able tocount compressions, and I have
(16:28):
always said, but again,compressions could be in a
different language, like ifEnglish is not your first
language, what's stoppingsomeone counting in Arabic or in
Polish, my language, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agreewith that as well, and I
actually believe that everyoneshould do first aid, I think it
should be something that everycitizen who really, really wants
(16:55):
to be able to be part of acommunity should do first aid
and I've always updated my firstaid qualifications over the
years from high school because,not for any other reason other
than that I know first aid and Ican help anybody in an
emergency, and I've had to useit on a number of occasions.
Maciek Fibrich (17:16):
Look, and so this is where you know, again,
obviously there's tens ofthousands of people that do
first aid every month, right,and so as a first aid provider
whether it's St John's or aprivate first aid or, you know,
an ambulance service this again2.2b may cause some concerns for
(17:37):
people because it's like, well,we don't want to make the
enrolment process challengingand difficult to the point where
they go away.
We don't want to have that as abarrier to entry, but we also
need to obviously align to that.
So again, yeah, I think you'reright.
What's this space?
I think I'll definitely begetting.
Once ASQA has theirunderstanding, I'll be seeking
(18:01):
advice from some of their seniorpeople to go okay, how do you
intend to audit this for thesetypes of programs?
Angela Connell-Richards (18:11):
Okay, so let's go with what I've heard
in the marketplace.
Do we need digital skillsassessment for first aid?
Maciek Fibrich (18:22):
digital skills assessment for first aid, I
would argue that it depends onthe delivery mode of the program
.
So if you're doing pre-learningprior to the program, so this
now is moving away from theindividual unit of competency,
but looking at what it talksabout is your cohort and the
program.
But looking at what it talksabout is your cohort and the
(18:45):
program.
So my suggestion would be isthat if we're delivering the
pre-learning via an onlineplatform, which is often what a
lot of providers do to shortenthe program, then part of that
enrolment process should be thebasic questions do you have a
computer, do you have aninternet connection, do you know
how to log into a browser?
And some basic questions likethat, and they are then reviewed
(19:07):
.
I think we've just sorted outthe problem right.
So you still ask thosequestions as part of the
application process, whoever'sprocessing the application, even
if it's a logic online form.
If you tick that the answer isno, then it refers you for
further assessment, whereas ifyou tick yes, then it allows you
to do it and therefore you'vegot almost a review process by
(19:30):
default being in the system.
That could work.
Angela Connell-Richards (19:34):
So in a snapshot, it's not only looking
at the unit of competency andthe requirements of the units,
it's your delivery mode.
So how are you delivering thatunit of competency as well, or
training product?
Maciek Fibrich (19:47):
And, as you and I have been just verbalising
this again challenging thestatus quo, which is what I sort
of love doing it doesn't talkabout that.
A physical person has to reviewthis right.
So here we are, using digitaland technology to go.
(20:18):
Okay, based on the responsesthat don't have technological
skills to log into a browser,please contact the office or
please, you know, look elsewherefor a product that's suitable
for you, or something alongthose lines.
Angela Connell-Richards (20:30):
Or here's an instructional video on
how to log in and the process.
Maciek Fibrich (20:36):
Subject to them knowing how to access the video,
which, again, it's this loopcycle.
Angela Connell-Richards (20:41):
But yes , yeah, you know, maybe yes, so
it's making sure that you havethis within your training and
assessment strategy.
Maciek Fibrich (20:48):
Yes, strategy document marketing information
again.
So looking at Standard 2.1,making sure that that's clearly
outlined, as well as making surethat your procedures are in
place for this assessmentprocess within your RTO.
Angela Connell-Richards (21:03):
Yeah, yeah, certainly I totally agree
with all of that.
Maciek Fibrich (21:07):
Yeah, I think there's room there yeah.
Angela Connell-Richards (21:09):
Yeah, now let's look at the total
opposite extreme.
Looking at a unit BSB INS 501,implement information and
knowledge management systems.
What language, literacy andnumeracy and digital skills may
need to come into consideration?
Here is really looking at thatunit of competency.
(21:30):
There's a lot more.
It's a high-level literacy andwriting skills needed for
documentation and policycreation, but also you're going
to need to have a strong digitalliteracy skills, including
being able to navigateinformation systems, databases,
communication tech, and you willneed so.
(21:52):
When you think about this unitof competency, what type of LLND
do you think you would need inthat area?
What type of LLND?
Maciek Fibrich (22:01):
do you think you would need in that area?
Yeah, look, 100%, you're right.
And again it comes back to thecohort.
You know, judging by the code,I believe this would be
something that would beappropriate at a diploma level
type qualification.
So you know, whenever we'relooking at those types of
qualifications, we're wanting tomake sure that, yeah, we're not
(22:23):
setting people up to fail.
So it's unlikely that.
Well, this unit may be deliveredon its own, but it's probably
more delivered as part of aprogram saying yes, uh, rather
than just having a five minuteenrollment process like you
would for an individual unit,like first aid or white card,
(22:44):
there would be some depth in theenrollment, in the application
process, and a review where it'slike okay, where, what is your
prior experience?
Because, again, a diploma ofbusiness or a diploma of quality
auditing or any of those typesof qualifications don't have
embedded lower qualifications,for example, like hospitality or
(23:05):
beauty therapy, et cetera,whereas a diploma of beauty
therapy almost embeds a Cert III, a Cert IV and a diploma in it.
So here again we're looking ata level of okay, are your
literacy, numeracy and digitalskills at a level that would
support your completion?
And then this is where an RTOmay choose to have a procedure
(23:31):
where it says as part of ourapplication process, we're then
going to send you a link to anassessment system, platform,
whichever one you go for, toallow for a streamlined
assessing process.
And so these are times where Ido think investing in a platform
(23:52):
100% makes life easier, becausethey're prepared for that.
And again, you know my sloganis do what you do best,
outsource the rest.
And so if you can outsourcethat assessment process,
integrating it to your enrolmentstructure, then that may help
you, rather than trying to do itmanually.
Angela Connell-Richards (24:10):
And then what I would also recommend
, because it is a review process.
We're not assessing theirskills, we're reviewing it could
be required skills andknowledge.
They might need to hold a Cert4 in business, or they may need
to have a certain years ofexperience in the workplace
(24:31):
using a variety of digitalskills, which they could
demonstrate through a resume andprofessional development
certificates that they'vecompleted.
Maciek Fibrich (24:40):
And you've raised a very valid point there.
We can't just rely on an LLNDas the basis of the review,
because it does specificallytalk about taking into account
the requirements of the trainingproduct.
It has procedures in place toreview, prior to NOM, the skills
and competencies of theprospective student, including
(25:00):
their language literacy andnumeracy proficiency and digital
literacy.
So RTOs must remember that it'snot just the LLND that we're
focusing on here.
As you said, it's what existingskills, competencies or
proficiencies they may have thatallows them to do this unit or
course successfully.
Angela Connell-Richards (25:20):
Yeah, yeah, that allows them to do
this unit or course successfully.
Yeah, yeah, and it takes meback to when I was delivering.
I was delivering Cert 2 to adiploma in business in a year.
Can't do that anymore now, butI was delivering that over a
year and I was taking recentschool leavers from that
Certificate 2 to the diploma andit was very, very difficult
(25:43):
because Cert 2 and 3 was easyfor them, cert 4 was moderately
good, but once I got them to thediploma I was really dragging
them through, because you can'tin a year.
They're not working in theworkplace, they're only learning
what they're learning in theclassroom.
And those digital skills.
(26:03):
Yes, they may be able to doyour basic Word, excel,
powerpoint and things like that,but it's applying those skills
within the workplace.
And that's where I struggledwith the students because they
didn't understand in the realworld how to apply those skills.
Maciek Fibrich (26:20):
It's a concept of experiential learning, right?
So learning from experience, bypracticing and applying, and
you know I call it the four A's.
So we need to have the abilityto acquire the skill and
knowledge, absorb it, so time toabsorb, which is where that
volume of learning and the AQFdoes play a part.
Angela Connell-Richards (26:39):
Apply, so practice, the skills and then
assess On a number of occasions.
Maciek Fibrich (26:43):
Yeah, so it's again.
So that's why you know, acquire, absorb, apply and assess.
And if you do that and I thinkthe standards sort of spell that
out quite well, that you knowyou need to make sure that
there's time for students topractice their skills, and again
, not just once.
Angela Connell-Richards (27:03):
Yes.
Maciek Fibrich (27:03):
Because you know we bring in that without
opening up Pandora's box here.
But you know we haven't spokena lot about dimensions of
competency, which seem to havesort of gone by the wayside a
lot.
But again, transferability ofskill, task skills, task
management skills, contingencymanagement skills, et cetera,
you know they form part of thedimensions of competency.
Angela Connell-Richards (27:23):
Yeah, and I've seen it now in
particular, when you look at thehospitality industry and
commercial cookery, and beingable to apply the skills on a
number of occasions is often notfeasible because of the costs
of it.
Correct and I've discussed thisrecently like just because
(27:43):
you've learnt how to cook asouffle once and then you go
straight into an assessment tocook a souffle, it is very, very
different from applying thatskill on a number of occasions.
Maciek Fibrich (27:56):
Or pouring a draft ale versus a Guinness
right Two very different beersand having that ability to
transfer those skills, but alsowhich?
Again, you know, again we'reopening up Pandora's box of
credit transfers and so forth.
But it really is about ensuringthat students can work in a
different environment, butwithout going overboard as well.
(28:17):
Yeah, you know you're not goingto teach a student to use 10
different types of defibs, butyou're going to get them to use
one.
But tell them that the others,how the others work, you know so
yeah, and what are thevariances um?
Angela Connell-Richards (28:30):
that there may be.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
So let's look at the risks andthe compliance gaps if we're
going to be helping our audiencewith understanding this.
What do you believe are thebiggest risks that RTOs will be
facing when it comes to Standard2.2 and language, literacy,
numeracy and digital skills?
Maciek Fibrich (28:51):
As I said earlier, I think the biggest
risk is going to be to theproviders that are focusing on
the sales of direct entrythrough an enrolment process, an
online enrolment process, andthis is not new Again.
The standards have always beenthere prior to enrolment or
(29:14):
commencement of study.
Whichever comes first was theexisting wording, and so I've
always been an advocate of usingthe term apply for enrollment,
which then doesn't give the uhthe the sense that I've got an
automatic entry into the program.
That is an application process.
So from my perspective, thebiggest risk is failing to
(29:35):
assess a student's um existingskills and knowledge, uh,
whether that's through theenrolment form or through
another questionnaire, andchoosing not to review their
language, literacy, numeracy anddigital skills.
Through whichever method youuse, be whatever's appropriate
for that product and yourdelivery approach.
They're the probably two thingsthat especially around 2.2, is
(29:59):
going to cause issues, as wellas not assessing the student's
ability to access particulartypes of, say, physical
resources that might be requiredto complete that training.
So if you don't talk about theneed to have a computer, because
we assume that everyone's got adevice, but we can't make that
(30:20):
assumption- no, we can't,certainly not.
Angela Connell-Richards (30:22):
So how can RTOs put all this into a
simple, scalable process?
Maciek Fibrich (30:28):
easy ask chat gpt?
No, don't.
I look you and I play in ai somuch and we know that it doesn't
get it right.
Look, um, the honestly the bestway, and I've just spent the
last couple of months, like youand like everyone else, putting
uh appropriate materialstogether for new applicants and
existing rtos existing rtos,really, without upsetting
(30:55):
colleagues.
Don't go out there and buy asuite of generic documents,
right?
That's my opinion.
Angela Connell-Richards (31:01):
One thing I've seen is you
definitely need to have itspecifically written for the
training products that you aredelivering 100%.
Maciek Fibrich (31:10):
And just literally yesterday I was
reviewing for a client theirpolicy around standard one and
the fundamental thing is, youknow they deliver a unit of
competency, but within theirpolicy they talk about
qualifications, skill sets andaccredited courses and I'm like,
why, like you know, make itrelevant to your business?
So how can you put a system?
(31:31):
Look, read the practice guides,read the outcome policy,
standards policy guidance thatwas released in march by dur.
Get an understanding of it.
The biggest failing of any rto,the ceo or manager, is
listening to the internet aboutmythical requirements that don't
exist.
Is point one.
(31:52):
And secondly, a really um adesire to want to understand the
standards.
So read the standards and thenseek advice from people like
yourself or me.
Uh to go, can you explain howwe can interpret this and apply
it within our business?
Don't just go off what pub talkand and and chat groups and so
(32:15):
forth, because it's not alwaysright and neither is chat gpt um
.
Angela Connell-Richards (32:20):
However , in saying that, I think you
can use chat gpt, but you needto use it in a smart way.
Maciek Fibrich (32:28):
So yeah, you use ai as much as you can.
Both you and I are advocates ofAI.
100% Use AI.
But again, poo in, poo out,crap in, crap out.
If you haven't taught thesystem right, it's going to make
stuff up and, unless you'reprepared to fact check it, it's
going to come up with standardsthat don't exist.
(32:50):
It's going to come up withnumbering that doesn't exist and
it's going to make you looksilly.
Angela Connell-Richards (32:55):
Yeah, I've spent over three years
training mine, so it's quiteknowledgeable now.
But what I would recommend ifyou are going to use ChatGPT is
taking the unit or the trainingproduct.
So, whatever you're developing,go to traininggovau and upload
that into ChatGPT, as well asthe practice guides and the
(33:17):
standard for writing thelanguage, literacy and numeracy
and then getting ChatGPT to askyou questions based on that.
So it's not just here, it isnow.
Write me something, review allof this and then ask me any
further questions, as I am theindustry expert of how I could
develop a language, literacy andnumeracy tool based on what are
(33:40):
the requirements?
Maciek Fibrich (33:42):
As I say, it's not the Mona Lisa right, it's
not going to be a work of art bysimply getting it, but it's far
better than a blank canvas.
And if you've got yourframework, you say to it right,
as a starting point, I need youto do X, y, z and then use it.
Don't just don't think oneprompt's going to give you a
response.
Use it, advance it, expand onit, rewrite it use it like, use
(34:03):
it as a draft, but whatultimately it does for you?
It makes your life easier andfaster, but you still need to
have that base understanding,because if you don't, you're
going to produce rubbish.
Angela Connell-Richards (34:20):
Yeah, and you can't think that ChatGPT
is smarter than you when itcomes to your industry skills
and knowledge and your business?
Maciek Fibrich (34:24):
It doesn't know your business, right yeah.
So you need to be sure thatyou're aligning everything that
it produces within your context.
Angela Connell-Richards (34:32):
Yeah, they're a very skilled research
assistant, but you need to takethat research and then implement
it the best way for you andyour students.
Maciek Fibrich (34:42):
As I've said, it's the smartest, dumbest
intern you'll ever have.
Angela Connell-Richards (34:44):
Yes, yes, yes.
Okay, all right, this has beenreally good having a chat about
this, because I know it is anarea where a lot of people are
struggling.
Do they need to go out and buymaterials?
Essentially, the answer is youreally need to identify.
You'll learn a cohort.
What are their skills, existingskills and knowledge, the
(35:07):
training product, and whatskills and knowledge will they
need in order to successfullycomplete that training product?
Maciek Fibrich (35:16):
And also the volume of students that you're
trying to push through right.
Angela Connell-Richards (35:18):
Correct , yeah.
Maciek Fibrich (35:21):
If you've got 10 students a year, it really may
be just appropriate not to.
Angela Connell-Richards (35:28):
Yeah, yeah, whereas if you've got, you
know like I used to deliver aRSA class once or twice a week
and we would have 30 studentsper class for that, I would be
really looking at what are theso definitely need language
literacy and numeracy when itcomes to RSA Responsible Service
(35:51):
of Alcohol because they need tobe able to read signs and they
need to be able to measure, andthey also need to be able to
read body language signals aswell.
But when it comes to digital,signals Hang on.
Maciek Fibrich (36:04):
Are we adding emotional intelligence to LLNM?
Oh, dear God, Good thing.
Next thing you'll say we've gotto assess common sense.
Oh, yeah God, Good thing Nextthing you'll say we've got to
assess common sense.
Angela Connell-Richards (36:16):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Well, I don't think there's alot of common sense when it
comes to trying to deal withdrunk people, but anyway.
So if you're not sure where tostart, I've actually created a
checklist, a compliancechecklist for Standard 2.2 on
how you can map your language,literacy and numeracy, including
(36:37):
using ChatGPT for that as well,and really looking at what it's
diving into that who are yourlearner cohort, what are their
existing skills and knowledgeand what does the training
product require?
And they're the key areas thatyou need to really identify.
And do you need to go rush outand buy any software?
(36:59):
That's really up to you and itreally is up to the training
products that you have.
It doesn't stipulate anywherewithin the standard that you
must have a digital assessmenttool.
It just says that you arereviewing and setting the
student up for success.
Maciek Fibrich (37:16):
Yeah, I agree.
Angela Connell-Richards (37:18):
Yeah, thanks again, maytek.
This episode really clears thefog around language literacy and
numeracy To all of ourlisteners.
You can download our newlanguage literacy suitability
planning template from the shownotes and if you've still got
any questions, go to the rtocommunity on facebook.
We have a huge community on ourfacebook group that are asking
(37:42):
questions all the time, and it'soften where I get the content
for our future episodes of uh,of the rto superhero, because,
uh, they're asking questions allthe time.
It's a great place for me to gobecause I am able to answer
those questions through theforum, but also through our
podcast as well.
(38:03):
So until next time, staycompliant, stay confident and
keep empowering your learners.
There you go.
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