Under Pressure: International Education, ASQA Scrutiny & the Future of CRICOS RTOs with Lauren Boon-Hollows

Episode Transcript
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Angela Connell-Richards (00:09):
Welcome to the RTO Superhero Podcast
with my special guest host,lauren Boone-Hollows, who today
we're going to be discussing avery hot topic of what's
happening in the educationsector right now, in particular,
with international educationand the pressures of government.
Welcome, lauren.

(00:30):
Let's get started with Boxinggloves are off.
Yeah, get the boxing gloves off.
Yeah, I think let's get startedwith the big picture of how
would you describe the currentstate of international education
in Australia right now.

Lauren Boon-Hollows (00:48):
So, look, unfortunately, we've been in
this position before.
Angela, you've been around fora while.
I know I have too.
We felt this way in 2016.
We have felt this way in 2009and we feel this way again.
And look, I'm sure that inseven or eight years, we will
feel this way again.
And look, I'm sure that inseven or eight years we will
feel this way again.
But there does seem to be aconcerted effort at the moment

(01:12):
to significantly reduce the, youknow, the VET workforce and the
international cohort.
There are some legitimate andgenuine reasons for that, which
we can all understand.
International students arevulnerable students.
There have been and there willalways be issues such as we see

(01:33):
in ghost colleges, where you'vegot, you know, really bad
practices from education agentswho are making false promises,
and you've got RTOs who arewilling to support them in that,
and you've got some even worseissues where you know there's
some real human abuse that'soccurring as well.
However, unfortunately, when wego to address those issues,

(01:55):
there's often this kind ofmassive course correction over
course correction that happens,and what we generally see around
about every seven to nine yearsis a concerted effort to, I
guess, regulate internationalRTOs in such a way that it has a
massive business impact and Iwould say you know, if it was

(02:19):
happening from anyone other thanthe government, would basically
be anti-competitive practicesthat are put in place on a lot
of these RTOs to effectivelythrottle the RTOs, to
significantly reduce the, tochange the regulatory
environment so much that thereis no security from a business
perspective, there is a severelimiting of any potential to

(02:42):
grow or develop business andeven a limit to be able to
operate within fiscallyresponsible categories.
So we're looking atinternational RTOs who have to
have massive premises, muchhigher rates of students to
staff, you know, additionalrequirements in terms of making
sure that everything is 9Bcompliant.

(03:04):
The costs that are associatedwith that are huge international
education agencies take massiveadvantage.
Um and and.
When times get tighter, that'swhen the education agents really
smash rto.
So some education agents expect, you know, upwards of 40, which
is effectively all of theprofit that any potential RTO

(03:27):
can make, and generally thensome, you know, in order to get
a visa across the line.
And so what we're seeing at themoment is we're just seeing
huge amounts of cryocross RTOsexiting the sector.
Some are exiting by way of justselling out, some are exiting

(03:47):
by way of the fact that they'refinancially strangled and many,
almost all, are being limitedfrom entering the market.
So look, unfortunately, it'sreally sad, and I guess the
bigger problem that I have withit is that I'm a huge advocate
of the regulator.
I always have been.
I believe that strongregulation and I know you feel

(04:08):
the same strong regulation inour sector is really important
Improves our quality of oureducation.
Absolutely.
But trust in the regulator toevenly audit across everyone is
also incredibly important aspart of that.
Across everyone is alsoincredibly important as part of
that.
And at the moment I'm seeingTAE RTOs getting their

(04:32):
re-registration without alook-in and you know
international RTOs of 70students being dragged through a
24, 36-month renewal process.
You know whereby we'redemonstrating to them that we're
doing weekly QA meetings whichare logged in Accelerate's

(04:52):
quality register.
You know all of the assessmenttools contextualised for
international students, all thevalidations up to schedule, all
the trainers' trainer matricesin place.
Think like I've got assessmenttools that have passed an
international like past adomestic audit in the last three
months.
That exact same assessment toolright is now um being told that

(05:16):
it's non-compliant for aninternational student.
And I'm kind of going.

I literally have an audit report
where you've said that this iscompliant, where you've, where
you've looked at this assessmenttool and said this is compliant
and now you're telling me sixmonths later it's not, and
you're saying um, also when wewere chatting earlier, that um,
they're making some massivechanges when it comes to
international students and whatare the requirements, so it's

(05:41):
putting more burden on the rtobecause they've got to
contextualize it.

Yes, you should always contextualize your
assessment tools anyway to thelearner cohort, but I think from
what I'm hearing is it's goingoverboard yeah, and I look, I
think I think one of thechallenges is is that, um, I
know that there are a lot of newregulators coming through asqua
and I know that there's a lotof them that coming through ASQA
and I know that there's a lotof them that haven't worked in

(06:07):
RTOs before, which is alwayschallenging.
Rtos are a beast and ourindustry is so diverse, but
there's a lot of practicalthings that occur in terms of
you know understanding how anRTO works and you know practical
observations is a great exampleof that.
When you have, you know 10, 15,20 students that are

(06:29):
undertaking a practicalassessment.
You've got.
You know 12 students 20students in a kitchen, you know,
you've got.
You know you've got studentsrunning a group presentation or
you've got you know six groupsof four students that are all
working and you know, as atrainer and assessor, you're
moving around and you're lookingat what each of those students

(06:49):
are doing and you're making surethat everything happens safely
and you're you know you'redocumenting all of those
interactions and you know, likeI'm always scribbling, you know
massive notes and kind of goingso-and-so is doing this really
well, right?
Pull this person aside, givethem that live feedback to you

(07:09):
know tweak and make sure thatthey're meeting that competency
standard.
Those are the focuses andthat's the really beautiful
stuff that happens when you'vegot like these big group
training things, like you've gotthe ability to kind of you know
really kind of get thatatmosphere happening where it's
kind of buzzing and everyone'screating stuff and you know like
there's so much good learningand so much good assessment and

(07:30):
so much competency beingdemonstrated in those scenarios.
But the practical realities ofthem is is that you don't have a
trainer and assessor sittingthere with 20 ipads going
through and you know the focusis not on ticking a box.
The focus at that point is ondetermining competency.
And determining competency isan iterative process and every

(07:53):
so off, every so many years andand there's, I think, over the
last really 10 years we've seenthis degrade more and more.
When an assessor who has theirTAE, who has their industry
qualifications, who has currencyin TAE, who has currency in
their industry, turns around andticks a box to say they can do

(08:14):
this, more and more and more, weare saying not good enough,
yeah.
And if that is the point, likeif we're ultimately going to
turn around and say, unless I asthe auditor or I as the
validator?
See it with my own eyes.
You, as a qualified industrytrainer and assessor, you

(08:36):
telling me that you ticking abox and signing a declaration to
say that they are competent isnot enough.

Angela Connell-Richa (08:43):
Sufficient .

Right, say that they are competent is not
enough, right?
I don't know how else ourindustry, so I don't know how
our industry survives that shortof having a camera on every
student in which case we takeaway like we're taking away from
the educative experience, thetraining experience, the
assessment experience, every andand the other thing is is why

(09:07):
would I want to be a trainer,like our industry?
Is the educative experience,the training experience, the
assessment experience.
And the other thing is is whywould I want to be a trainer?
Like our industry is so shortof trainers?
But why would I want to be atrainer If nothing, I say
nothing, I do no comment, that Iwrite is good enough for you to
believe that I know that thatstudent can do it.
Yeah, without a video or anobservation, that's right and
competency isn't determined onthat one observation Certainly

(09:29):
not.
It's taken over a period.
It's taken from me working withthat student over time and, yes
, they'll have bad days but,like, I've seen them do the
planning and do thecommunication and do the skills
over that period of time.
So when I, as the assessor, saythey can communicate, they know

(09:50):
the safety policy, they knowhow to do this safely, they know
how to do it within industrytime frames.
But if I it doesn't matter howoften I say that, doesn't matter
what declarations I sign, itdoesn't matter how many boxes I
tick I'm consistently being toldit's not sufficient.
It hurts our industry Like itjust seriously hurts our
industry.

So there are other issues that are
coming into the reason whyinternational education like
when we think about pre-pandemicinternational education was
vying for first and secondposition as the biggest export
out of Australia and thepandemic absolutely crashed that

(10:30):
.
But we've never got back.
We've never got back to thatlevel and now we've got two
governments that are vying forthe political station right now
when it comes to the electionand the big focus is on
accommodation and that there isa lack of accommodation.

(10:51):
So, yes, I can understand this.
We need to put Australiansfirst, but we also need to, we
need the workers.
So what are your thoughts onthe government trying to squash
the international educationmarket because of lack of
accommodation?

I think it's just a political handball.
I think it's short-sighted.
I think that both are bothmajor parties.
In fact, I think the majorityof the parties within Australia
have such a fundamental lack ofunderstanding of the benefits
that international educationbrings in.
So international education hasbeen in a top four export, just

(11:37):
under coal, iron ore, for thelast, I think, 10 years, some
years, contributing $50 billionon the top line right to the
Australian economy.
Now, what then flows from thatis a significant amount of
workers that are open to doingjobs that potentially not a lot

(11:59):
of Australians want to do.
There is also, you know, a hugeamount of work that flows for
Australians our RTOadministrators, our university
administrators, our trainers andassessors, our university
lecturers, you know,particularly within our
university sector.
Without the international moneyto prop up those universities,

(12:24):
those universities wouldactually fall over.
Without, you know, theinternational students to
support our sector, you knowthere would not be the money
flowing in from internationaleducation to support a lot of
the important initiatives thatwe run for job seekers, for
asylum seekers, for, you know,trainees and for apprentices,

(12:47):
and all of the governmentfunding programs that we do,
which are so incrediblyimportant and vital.
The only reason I got into thisindustry was because I was
literally I was.
I came from an abusiverelationship.
I became a trainer.
I was working with moms who hadcome from abusive relationships
as well, and I was getting theminto jobs and getting them
trained and getting them skilledup, and it was the most

(13:07):
life-changing experience of mylife.
It was life-changing for them,and that is what that does it's.
It's an incredibly beautifulthing, but all of that requires
money to support it.
There's huge educationinitiatives that happen for
Aboriginal and Torres StraitIslanders and our First Nations,
and the money that we get the$50 billion that we get from

(13:29):
international education goes tosupport a lot of those
initiatives and all of the othermoney that then flows in from
it.
Accommodation is an issue.
Right, I'm not going to lie,accommodation is an issue, but
we can deal with that byderegulating the ability to
build houses and also, in orderto build more houses, guess what
we need to do.
We can deal with that byderegulating the ability to
build houses and also, in orderto build more houses, guess what
we need.
We need electricians, we needbrickies, we need carpenters, we

(13:52):
need plumbers, and all four ofthese areas are supported by
international educationproviders yeah, right, they're
supported by that.
So if we need more of thosepeople and there are people
willing to come in and spend,you know, 15 to 20 000 a year in
order to become a brickie andthen want to, you know, be you

(14:16):
know and you can, you canorganize legislation so that you
can say right, well, if you'rean international student and
you're going to come in andyou're going to study being a
brickie, then you've got to workas a brickie.
We're going to limit your workvisa to you being a brickie.
Right?
That's a really simple solution.
People have been talking aboutit for ages.
I've put it forward.
I know multiple other people inunderstreet has put it forward

(14:37):
and gone.
If you're going to come overand study something, be it
electrical, be it, you know,brickie, be it.
Um, aged care, right, be itelectrical, be it, you know,
bricky be it aged care, be itnursing right, be it hospitality
, whatever you're studying,that's the industry that you can
work in and that's what you'relimited to, right so effectively
.
International kind of becomeslike a, like a traineeship,

(14:59):
apprenticeship style as well.
Right Increases the quality ofthe training and assessment
increases the competency.
You can do.
All of those sorts of things,those sorts of initiatives would
be great.
The initiative to turn aroundand go.
Well, we just need lessinternational students as a
blanket, but we're going tocontinue to allow higher
education because you know what.
We need more postdocs, or weneed more people studying a

(15:22):
master's in businessadministration or a master's in
you know, I don't knowpostgraduate dance theory or
something like I don't.
We don't need those.
We don't need any of that inAustralia.
Limit the visas to what we need, no problems.
We need builders, we neednurses, we need aged carers.

(15:43):
Need you know plumbers?
Let's.
Let's use the vocationaleducation system to support
building australian skills andfill our skills gaps in
australia yeah, not target itand tick like, tick a box and
say that if we think that welimit the number of
international students, there ismagically going to be more

(16:04):
houses.
That's just.
I mean, it's just such ashort-sighted, you know view for
both major governments to betaken.
It's really, reallydisappointing.

My thought on this is also what
about, like the regional areas,there are regional RTOs and
CRICOS providers that don't haveaccommodation issues.
Maybe they should push morefunding to go, or visas to go,
to regional areas, where theycan then also build those skills

(16:38):
that we need in Australia.

Yep, and I mean, like the 88-day visa is a
great example of that.
You know, quite often, like Iobviously live in regional
Queensland and far north and sowe get a lot of people through
here.
We're actually coming into ourwinter season, which is, you
know, our busy season for theyear, so we've got a huge amount
of providers that are puttingout there and going, hey, we

(17:02):
will take on people for their 88days of, you know, regional
work.
We'll provide you withaccommodation, um, you know, and
all of that, like there's,there's that opportunity when
you're coming out regionally andagain, I know that there's a
couple of places up here that dosimilar things from, like a
study perspective, like comehere, study here, you know, and

(17:22):
like build out the economy ofrural and regional Australia
because, again, like that's afantastic thing, we need more
people to come out country, in,you know, in Australia.

Yeah, and I'm in Newcastle, which
Newcastle also has, like, we'vegot the University of Newcastle
and there is student-specifichousing that is now empty
because we don't have sufficientstudents here to fill that
accommodation.
So, yeah, my thought is why,you know, if we could solve the

(17:59):
world and the issues ofinternational education, my
thoughts would be let's throw itinto regional areas where they
need that tourism, where theyneed that support of people
living in the accommodation andworking in those areas as well.
I think there's manyopportunities for where we could

(18:21):
redirect international students.

Yeah, and I mean, look, it does form a part
of our tourism economy as well.
We get a lot of people who comethrough here and you know, like
international students will.
You know, they might start hereon a holiday visa, you know,
study a little bit of English,then go onto an Helicos visa,
then jump into a VET visa andthey do stay for a long period

(18:45):
of time and I'm not going to liethat.
You know there are people thatoverstay and there are people
that take advantage of oursystem.
And look, if you have lost yourvisa and you've gone through
the ART process and they've saidno, you're not.
You know you didn't meet yourobligations, you weren't a good
international student, youdidn't meet your requirements,
then you need to go home now andthat's absolutely fine.

(19:07):
Like I want people to operatewithin the legal bounds and
confines of our system, in thesame way, I want every RTO to
operate within the legal.
But I want you to provide goodtraining, I want you to provide
contextualized training, I wantyou to provide those support
services.
But if we're going to hold RTOsto, you know, the legal
standard, then hold everyone tothe legal standard right, and we

(19:31):
need to have faith that ourregulator is going to apply that
.
And it's, you know, theeducation team at ASQA is so
brilliant.
They, you know, they're puttingout all of these practice
guides, they're attending everyconference, they're sitting and
they're talking to intern likethey're talking to RTOs, they're
actively trying to solveproblems and it's like it's a

(19:56):
little bit heartbreaking to knowthat there's like all of this
beautiful work that theregulator is undertaking.
But then, when we get to theregulation side, you know, if we
don't, then you know, evenhandily apply it.
Like I just I get providerscoming to me more and more going
it honestly, doesn't matterwhat we do.
Like the intent is very clearthat they've made a decision

(20:18):
that we're not going to getthrough.
And we're not going to getthrough.
And you've got like smallerproviders that will turn around
and go.
I'm just not willing to likerun my, my personal and my
business into the ground.
Um, we're just going to give up, you know.
And then you've got otherproviders that are fighting for
it and you know, like that'sthat's a really hard thing to

(20:41):
see.
Like I've talked to severalproviders in the last couple of
weeks who, you know, want tostart up an RTO or they're going
into their re-registration thisyear and I've literally I sat
down with a provider last weekand I was like you know, you
guys are really good, we'veupdated all your assessment
tools, we've got all thesequality notes.
I said, but you're aninternational RTO and they're

(21:08):
like, well, what do you mean?
I'm like I don't see you.
I don't see this is not goingto be an easy ride.
You're going to get delays.
You're going to be told thingsare non-compliant, when my
professional perspective is thatit's probably not.
Um, you probably are compliant,but regardless, you're in for a
fight Like this is not going togo through easily.
You're going to be in for afight for the next 12, 18 months
until we get through this nextrough patch.
And they're sitting there kindof going but like we've done

(21:29):
everything right, Like we'vebeen engaged with them for like
18 months now, setting up newbusiness processes for them, you
know, refining all of theirtrainer matrices, updating their
assessment tools, doing all thevalidation.
You know recording all thequality meeting minutes and
everything like that, recordingall the quality meeting minutes
and everything like that.
It's heartbreaking to see thatwork going into an rto of
somebody who genuinely wants todo the right thing and not have

(21:51):
any of it recognized when theygo into an audit, because there
there is a validation componentof like we're like, we're trying
real hard, guys, we're tryingreal hard, and when you see the
regulator going it's just notgood enough.

Like yeah, yeah, this is a good segue
into the ASQA pressures at themoment and, in particular,
around assessment tools andcompliance and what you've been
experiencing.
We've been experiencing thatpre-assessment validation is
usually focusing especially onthe learner cohort,

(22:24):
contextualisation and industryspecifics for the provider.
So, yes, I do agree that we doneed to contextualise for the
international market, but canyou see what it will actually
the future will be if wecontinue this way in particular?

(22:46):
But you've mentioned that ASQAis now requesting this
pre-validation of assessmenttools.
We've seen it as well atVivacity.
Can you walk us through whatthis actually looks like in
practice for a CRICOS RTO?

Yeah.
So I guess, first and foremost,I get a lot of RTOs that come
to me and go oh, but wepurchased our tools
pre-validated, so under thecurrent standards, the
responsibility is on the RTO to,you know, ensure that their
assessment system is compliantat all times, and part of that

(23:24):
assessment system is havingcompliant assessment tools.
So, believing without actuallyvalidating, um, even under the
old, under the old rto standard,under the current rto standards
of 2015, not really enough,guys, like you know, like it's
just you know you've got to dothese things yourself.

(23:46):
Um, so that's I guess that'spoint number one um, under the
old system, what I would say isis like there was probably a lot
more lenience for, oh well,we've, you know, we've done a
pre-validation on a couple ofthe units.
We've checked with the, youknow.
We've checked on the provider.

(24:06):
We've done a pre-validation ona couple of the units.
We've checked on the providerwhen we've built them into the
system.
We've been cross-checking themapping and we're pretty happy
with that and we've got a littlebit of evidence, maybe some
emails or maybe a validationform or something like that,
under the new standards, whenthe new standards take over on
1-7-25, it's so black and white.

(24:27):
It's so clear within this Everysingle assessment tool needs to
be pre-validated before use.
Now what that will actuallylook like when the audits come
in of the formal new standards,I think we will see two versions
of it, unfortunately, I thinkwithin the domestic market.

(24:48):
I think there'll be a kind of agrandfathering in of like okay,
well, we've got a validationschedule in place that includes
pre-validation and it includesthe post-validation.
So the pre-validation of, like,the assessment tool structures
and the trialing and the testing, and the post-validation of the
assessment judgment itself,right?
So when I use the term pre andpost-validation, that's what I

(25:11):
mean.
I know everyone's got their ownyou know, testing, moderation,
validation we won't get intothat today.
I think for internationals theyare going to be held to a very
strong line of show me thepre-validation form that has
been done for every singleassessment tool that you have.
Um that you've delivered in thelast year.

(25:33):
Um, and it's very easy for meto pull that report because I
can go and I can pull your lastum, avs, avet, mislodgement, and
I can filter all of the unitsof competency that you've
delivered in the last 12 monthsand I can pick six or seven of
those at random and you need tobe able to show me that you've
done pre-validation on them.
And I wouldn't hazard a guessthat there is maybe two percent

(25:59):
of RTOs out there that would beable to meet that requirement.
Um, I agree, you know, yeah,like the vast majority of rtos
do validation poorly.
Um, there's some great pro likethere's, there's, you know
there's tools out there.
Now you know like obviously youknow, we both know vanessa at

(26:19):
prickly sweet, her whole thingis validation, produces that
automated report and everythinglike that.
Um, you know ai is gettingbetter and better at kind of
starting to review and I thinkthat we're going to continue to
see that that technology fleshout.
Um, but you know how RTOsdocument and again, even with

(26:43):
some RTOs, they may be doing itbut not documenting it.
Doing and not documenting is abig problem for RTOs.
So I think we're going to see areally strong adherence to like
no, you're delivering this tool.
Demonstrate to me that you'veactually done some sort of a
check yourself, as the RTO, thatthe assessment tool is

(27:05):
compliant.
Like, show me that you actually, you know, know that what
you're delivering is compliant.
To be fair, like, yeah, youshould be like, as an RTO, if
you aren't delivering anassessment tool, you should have
checked that that assessmenttool can actually, you know,
take on, you know demonstratecompetency meet all of the

(27:28):
requirements, gather all therequired evidence.
That's fair and reasonable.
And there's kind of somethingwith that.
Rtos have been like bucking alittle bit, like they've been
passing the ball a little bit onthat one with the whole.
We purchase compliant, you know, like we purchase compliant
assessment tools or you know, Imean even people who purchase

(27:51):
from us like our assessmenttools are contextualized for the
state and the cohort and thedelivery model.
But even our assessment toolscome with like a little
pre-validation in the mappingguide to say, hey, as the RTO,
I've actually checked this, sonow I know that you know, for us
we're actually fleshing outthat process and kind of going
okay, we're no longer actuallyjust going to build the tool for

(28:13):
you in your system, we'reactually going to need to start
having some meetings with youand actually like documenting
that pre-validation process withyou which is super like, super
easy to do.
Guys, honestly, get an ai notetaker, jump onto a team's
meeting, spend half an hourreviewing the assessment tool.
Get your ai notes, chuck theminto your quality register.

(28:37):
Bob's your uncle.
You're done like it's notrocket science, but it's time,
you know, and there's a lot ofjobs that have to be done in our
land so, and it's not as muchtime as it used to be, thanks to
ai, so we we can do it muchquicker.

But a bigger thing that we already
have discussed, uh, before wegot online, was when you're
looking at these requests thatwe're receiving from ASQA with
regards to pre-validation, isthere consistency across
providers or are you seeingtargeted behaviour, especially

(29:13):
towards international providers?

Yeah, unfortunately and look, this is
just my experience, and so theremay be consultants out there or
there may be RTOs out there whohave a completely different
experience um, my experience atthe moment is very different and
I and unfortunately it's cometo a point now where I'm
advising clients differentlybased on whether or not they're
domestic or whether they'reinternational.
Um, I've got international,I've got domestic clients that

(29:38):
are going to go throughregistration this year.
Um, they're very solid and I'vesaid to them look, I don't, I
don't think, I think we'll beokay, I think we'll.
You know, I will make sure thatwe can robustly defend this and
we can robustly defend that um,but I'm confident that we'll
get through.
Um, I wouldn't say that to aninternational rto at the moment.

(30:01):
I've already outright told RTOsthat are looking at registering,
as Cryocast have said don't doit.
I've said wait 18 months,because you're not going to get
through in the next 18 monthsanyway.
It's going to drag all of yourresources and you're likely just
going to be spending money fornothing.
So let's not do it now, let'swait 18 months.
I've got, you know, clientsthat are going through.

(30:24):
They're going to be putting inregistration, re-registration
this year and I've said to themwe're in for a hell of a fight.
You know my our, you know.
I think our best case scenariois that we can drag the
re-registration out for 18months to a point that the
regulator calms down, that theelection is over, that things

(30:44):
settle, that they realize theimportance of international
education, that we start losingthat many students and we start
losing that many rtos.
The government feels they cantick a box and say they've had a
win and they can return tonormal auditing.
Um, and this is what's happenedevery other time.
Like you, know yeah everythingswings and roundabouts in
international education, butI've been very clear, like my

(31:08):
advice, the road forward and thestandard that the clients are
being held to is, for me, forthe experiences that I've seen,
very different across RTOs and Iwill continue to provide advice
to clients very differentlybased on whether or not they're
international or domestic.

(31:29):
And again, I understand some ofthe reasons for that.
I get the regulators' reasonsfor wanting to apply pressure.
I know some of it is externalto them.
They're getting advice fromministers, they're getting
ministerial ministers, they'regetting ministerial directions
and border protection Exactly.
But it's just, it isheartbreaking.

(31:52):
It's heartbreaking becausethere's a lot of good things
that international educationdoes and every time we go
through one of these processesit hurts the Australian
reputation it has.
I mean, as a small businessprovider myself, I feel and I
feel it a lot more this timeround, having run a business for
five years than I did last time, where I didn't really have

(32:13):
that concept of how much yousacrifice to start up a business
and watching people likesacrifice and sacrifice and give
up their own wages to pay theirstaff, or you know, to make
sure that they can meet to paytheir staff, or you know, to
make sure that they can meetASPA's requirements or, you know
, dole out more money to lawyersand things like that, when they
are genuinely trying to do theright thing for their students

(32:33):
and for themselves and, you know, for their staff, is really
disappointing.

Yeah, we're seeing that in particular
for initial registration withCRICOS.
It's taking a long time beforethey actually get to an audit
and then when we do, there'svery much a focus on the learner
cohort and secondary language.
This is the big thing, andhaving clear and detailed

(33:02):
instructions for theinternational student market
when it comes to the assessmenttools.
But one of the things and we'veraised this already is there's
a very big difference betweenwhen assessment tools are
validated by the auditors fordomestic compared to

(33:24):
international.
They seem to be a lot harder onthe international.
It seems to have increasedcompared to what it was in the
past.
You were talking earlier aboutthis exact example of the same
assessment tools, but fordomestic and international.
What was the main differencesthat they were targeting?

(33:46):
What was the evidence that theywere looking for?

So I think there's two areas with
internationals that there's amuch stronger focus on.
I think the first isauthenticity.
So obviously all students aregetting more adept at using
ChatGPT we all are and beingable to identify authentic

(34:09):
submissions is becoming morechallenging.
I know at AnnaWire we balancethat by like any submission,
like if there's a presentationor if there's a report that's
due or a paper that's due, wealways do written questions, but
the written questions and thenthe you know, the paper and the
report are generally then, youknow, finalised with a

(34:30):
presentation whereby theassessor has an opportunity to
kind of go right.
Well, I know you've written allof this and you've probably
written it with ChatGPT, butlet's actually find out that you
know what you're talking aboutright, so it gives them a really
good opportunity and to usthat's the best authenticity
mechanism that we can build inright.
And I know universities aregoing very much the same way.

(34:51):
I had a chat just last weekwith a couple of university
lecturers who are saying youknow, they're moving to a lot
more verbal assessments andthings like that in light of
chat GPT.
So I think that's a big focusis like, and things like that in
light of chat, gpt.
So I think that's a big focusis like calling you know, like
questioning whether or not theassessments are actually
authentic to the students.
And that issue exists withevery student, like I mean,

(35:14):
apprentices and trainees know itas well as you know, any other
international student, so Idon't see why that should be
regulated differently across oneor the other, but it's being
it's, it's being brought up ininternationals and it's not
being brought up with domesticsat the moment.
Yeah, um.
Then the other issue is is theissue in and around observations

(35:34):
being undertaken by ourtrainers and assessors?
Um, and again, you know, at theend of the day, uh, yes, we
have tick boxes.
Okay, almost every RTO has toutilize observation checklists.
A good observation checklist isnot a copy and paste of the
performance criteria, it's a.
You know, this is the skillthat we're looking at and then

(35:55):
this is what it looks like.
So it's built out with a lot ofbenchmarks of like okay, well,
if we're talking about goodcommunication, we're talking
about thinking about the toneand pace, and we're thinking
about the body language andwe're making sure that they're
utilizing industry terminologycorrectly, right, we've got all
those benchmarks that then situnderneath it and what we're

(36:16):
seeing from the regulator at themoment is a questioning of like
saying, well, you've got achecklist, but that's not
sufficient.
And I'm like, okay, well, Iagree with you that a checklist
is not sufficient, but we don'thave a checklist.
We've got a checklist backed upby you know, very detailed
benchmarks, backed up bygenerally a form.

(36:37):
So like if a student iscreating a recipe or you know
building a recipe, they'll fillout a recipe card on like what
the recipe was and you know howthey had to, you know, adapt it
for a customer request, or whattechniques they used and what
ingredients they used.
So they fill something out thatkind of supports what was
actually done.

(36:59):
Same with job cards.
You know, like if somebody isbuilding, building a wall, we
put the take five with it, right, or we put the swims with it,
or something like that.
So no matter what skill we have, um, that we're assessing
generally, there's like asupporting you know document.
Behind it, there's anobservation checklist and
there's robust benchmarks.

(37:19):
Those three things together arethe foundations of a strong
assessment tool, and what we'restarting to see come out again
is this thing saying that that'sstill not sufficient.
You know, and I'm kind of goingwell.
You've got a qualified trainerand assessor.
You guys have agreed that theyare industry current.
You guys have agreed that we'reproviding professional
development for them.

(37:39):
So they're they're a qualifiedtrainer.
You agree, they're a qualifiedtrainer.
They're saying that they'veseen this being done.
We've got supporting evidencefrom the students.
We can't upload videos toasquire portals, right, so we
don't have like, if you want usto, we'll take videos and we'll
upload the videos there, but youwon't actually allow our squad

(38:02):
uploads of videos.
So we've got pictures of thefinal dish.
We've got a form signed by thestudent to say all the steps
that they took.
We've got observations by atrainer and you're still calling
bullshit as to whether or notit was done.
I don't know how else we candemonstrate authenticity short

(38:23):
of recording every singlestudent, uploading it into the
student portal and just havingassessors sit there and mark.
And the practical businessreality of a decision like that
is going to be a reduction inthe quality of training, a
reduction in the quality ofassessment and an offshoring of

(38:44):
a sugar load of trainer andassessor jobs to countries where
it is more financially viable,because I can get a TAE
qualified trainer in Philippinesto sit there and mark.
But you know, I would muchrather have a trainer on the

(39:08):
ground in Australia.
And if our governments are asthey say they are, for more jobs
in Australia, for building theAustralian economy, right then
we want to focus on having ourtrainers training and assessing
live in person with our studentsand that's what we want them to
be focused on.

(39:29):
But if we want really goodtrainers and we set some pretty
high benchmarks for trainers andassessors in australia, if
we're going to set those highbenchmarks for them, then when
they say and when they sign adeclaration that the student is
competent and that they've seenthem do that skill and we've got
supporting evidence thatthey've done that skill we have

(39:50):
to believe them.
We have to say, okay, you'veseen them do it.
You've signed to say them do it.
You've got some additionalevidence from what they've been
doing.
I'm not going to put a camerain every classroom and make an
assumption that you're going tolie to me every time you fill
out an observation checklist.
We just we can't do it.

(40:10):
We're going to lose all of ourtrainers and assessors.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I can see this
issue and like they're trying toget more trainers back in but
they're causing more issues whenassessors need to do more more
of this type of work.
I'm just going to change tracka little bit.
Have you seen evidence of ASQAusing minor non-compliances as

(40:38):
justification to questionsomeone's fit and proper person
status, and what procedures doesthis set or precedent does this
set?

yeah.
So look, I mean obviously askwho's been going after fit and
proper person for a while now.
New fit and proper person umcame out last year and I think
you and I had a chat about thisand we were both like,
absolutely like, I don't want, Idon't if someone is has had
their rto shut down before youknow if they've been that quiet,
shadowy figure that operatedduring the vet fee help scandal.

(41:08):
Like we need to understand whois operating RTOs and I think
that's fair.
I you know.
I think there's probably a fewtweaks that I would like to make
to the fit and proper form Like.
At the moment you've got tolike I have clients even
disclosing like all of theirspeeding tickets and stuff like
that.
Like so like they're gettingpretty big um.

(41:30):
You know my fit and properperson is now huge um, like it's
like 40 pages or something likethat.
It's big um, you know so.
So I understand the rationalefor it and I think the intent is
very good.
Unfortunately, I think the roadto hell is paved with good
intentions and in thisparticular case, what I've seen

(41:53):
now in the last three auditreports that have come through
is kind of a statement to theeffect of you didn't address.
You know it's taken you toaudit reports or it's taken you.
We had to identify thenoncompliance.
You didn't pick it up in thefirst place.
So therefore you're unable toeffectively manage a quality

(42:20):
system right.
Effectively manage a qualitysystem right and therefore that
makes you like not a fit andproper person, right, and I
think that this is a.
I think we've got to be reallycareful with this, because no
RTO is compliant 100% of thetime.
Every single one of our majorTAFEs have received an intent to
cancel at some point.
You know, and we're not aboutto turn around to TAFE Directors

(42:43):
Australia and say it's full of,you know, unfit and proper
persons, right, yeah, um, halfthose people then go into work
within governments and becomeregulators.
So you know, like, all of ushave worked in RTOs and and
there is no RTO in Australiathat is 100% compliant, 100% of

(43:03):
the time.
God knows we try, right, godknows we try, but it's full of
people, it's full of students,it's full of human beings that
are going to make mistakes,right, 100%.
So what I want to determine atan audit and you know what I try
and determine when I'm workingwith clients and I mean to some

(43:25):
extent like price point plays arole in this.
Right, I'm like, well, unlessyou're like really willing to
invest in, like getting your RTOright, and where you're willing
to put in systems, and you'rewilling to like put your money
where your mouth is, I'm notwilling to work with you.
Right, and there's been severalclients where, like, I've gone
in, I've taken a look at it alland I'm like it doesn't matter

(43:45):
what I tell you, you're notgoing to listen to me, you're
not going to make the changes.
At the end of the day, you'rechasing dollars, and I don't
want to be associated withsomebody that chases dollars,
because, as consultants, we'vegot to protect our reputations
pretty fiercely, pretty fiercely.
Otherwise we end up with moreproblems for ourselves than
anyone else.
Right, and there's badconsultants out there that like-

(44:09):
.

We'll take anybody.

So I think the intent of the fit and proper
person is good.
I think that every RTO is goingto have non-compliances that
the regulator is going to pickup on.
I think this is particularlythe case when regulator
expectations change over timeand the interpretations of
standards change over time andwe can't like.

(44:35):
That is always going to be athing.
You know.
It happens in WHS, it happensin quality management and ISO
systems, it happens withineducation systems.
The interpretation of how weneed to evidence standards is
going to continue to change overtime.
But as a result of that, as aregulator we have to give a
little bit of grace and in thepast there's been statements

(44:56):
made by regulators as to likewe're coming out to regulate you
.
This is not an improvementprocess that you're going
through, but to some extent itis because when an RTO hasn't
had a regulatory interaction for7, 8, 9, 10, 15 years right,
they're going off of ASQApractice guides and they're

(45:18):
going off of, you know,professional development that
gets put out there, of whichthere is a wide variety.
If this was like theSingaporean government, right,
in Singapore there's one TAEprovider, right, that's the
Singaporean government, right.
They're very restrictive on whoactually gets to get put
through their TAE process orthey're like the equivalent of

(45:40):
their RTO process.
And if ASKWA is going to becomethe TAE delivery person, right,
like only ASQA can teach peoplehow to do it, then that's fine.
You can hold them to a higherstandard.
But like there's so much PD inour market, there's so many
conflicting opinions.
If an RTO has got evidence thatthey're demonstrating, that

(46:01):
they're trying, but they haven'tquite met the mark, like the
regulator has been really goodin the past at understanding and
kind of going.
Like I've gone through auditswhere the RTO has, let's say,
120 units on scope.
They've got a timeline forgetting all of them updated.
They've identified, you knowpreviously and maybe they're you

(46:25):
know I think I did one earlylast year they had spent the
last two years developing newassessment tools.
They were about 45 of the waythrough.
They were still using the old,non-compliant assessment tools
and they were kind of like, yeah, we know these aren't good
enough, but we know our trainingpractices are good, we know the
kids are coming out compliant.

(46:45):
We just know that like the waywe documented is not strong
enough.
Right, they and we were veryupfront with the regulator that,
like this is the new process.
We've you know all like the wewe've developed the schedule in
line with, like what we deliverthe most of so like we've so
like we risk rated and we riskreviewed all of this.

(47:06):
And like the high risk stuffwe've updated and the ones with
the most vulnerable cohorts,we've updated those.
But we've got these ones whichare like workplace trainees.
We've got a plan to updatethose assessment tools and get
them compliant over the next sixmonths.
But we're not there yet.
And the regulator was so greatthey were like we understand, we

(47:26):
can see you're trying, we cansee you're investing.
We love this process thatyou're doing and it was such a
wonderful experience, like theaudits I had, you know, up to
like August of last year withthe regulator.
They were so wonderful.
There was so much listeninghappening, there were so many
good communications happeningand then, like come like August

(47:49):
time, the communications justdropped off and all of a sudden
it was like, yes, you'd have aquick closing meeting or a quick
opening meeting, but thatengagement and dialogue of like
understanding how the RTOoperates and, you know, digging
into, like those tools, no, itall went to like.
I'm just going to review thedocuments that you submit.

(48:11):
What do you think happened atthat time?
Look, I don't know whether ornot it was.
I think part of it was probablya resourcing issue, like
obviously all regulators have todeal with like do I have enough
staff?
And I don't know whether or notit was kind of like that just
the numbers, the numbers ofapplications or the numbers of
issues were going up so much andso they didn't have the time

(48:34):
like they don't have the time tospend working and talking to
the clients and understandinghow they operate.
But a lot of the last ones haveliterally like we did have one
with a course accreditation lastyear and we were working and
talking with Asper and they wereexplaining to us like the
little tweaks that we needed tomake.
And it was again.
That was just a wonderfulinteraction.
Like anytime the regulatorcomes to a provider and

(48:56):
genuinely seeks to likeunderstand what they're doing
and they can see that there'slike such a good intent that
sits behind it, I find there's apositive outcome right.
But when all of the regulationis like very limited meetings
and majority of is justreviewing documentation, I think

(49:17):
as a regulator, you fall into ahabit of making negative
assumptions about providers andI get why they have a risk-based
approach, so they deal with theworst of the worst.
And when you deal with theworst of the worst like I know
it's the same for some ARTconsultants you know they deal
with the worst of the worst, soit's so easy to kind of get that

(49:37):
in your head that likeeveryone's dodgy.
All of these are ghost colleges.

There's no genuine from one to another,
to another.
Yeah, yeah, it would be reallyhard like.

I mean, like that I I try and stay out
of art for that reason, right,like that's why I love working
with providers, you know, on anongoing basis, because I get to
see all the good stuff thathappens.
I get to see the graduations, Iget to see, you know, like, the
students being like, oh, you'reseeing more stuff, amazing, or
a staff kind of going, oh my God, I've learned so much.
That's the really good stuff.

(50:09):
But as a regulator, theeducation team sees a lot of
that and I think that's why theeducation team is such a
positive force for ASQA, right,because they go out and they
have those talks, they go toconferences where, like you've
got all of these, you know rtosthat are like super pumped, like
do the right thing and engagein and you know like, but the

(50:30):
education team and theregulations teams experiences
are chalk and sheets.
Yeah right one gets to see thebest of industry, the other one
sees the worst of our industryand, like, our industry is
amazing and 90 of providers aretrying to do the right thing,
like I genuinely believe that inmy heart.
But, holy cow, you and I haveseen what the 10 do and it's

(50:52):
heartbreaking and it's horrificI trust the name of all the good
rtos that are out there so muchbad work and they, they, you
know, and, and, and it's all ofit's the good rtos, it's the 90
of the good rtos that have topay for what that 10 of rtos do,
because it's that 10 that makesthe headlines right.
Yes, and it's that 10 that hasled to the government now

(51:15):
turning around both governmentsturning around and saying, uh,
you know, internationaleducation doesn't provide
anything for this country, it'sjust taking up our housing,
right?
It?
It's just not true.
Like I've sat through so many,like so many graduations where,
you know, the parents have flownover from the country and
they've been, like you know, mychild achieved a diploma.

(51:38):
You know, like this is soamazing.
You know like we've our entirefamily is, like you, you know,
given everything for this kid tocome and get this experience
from australia and they havesuch beautiful beliefs about,
like, the australian people andthe australian system.
And like there's an exportingof our values that happens and
there's so much goodwillexported with international

(52:00):
education.
Um, but we're losing, we, wewill lose all of that again and
we've gone through this beforeand I am sure that we will again
.
We'll get to 2028 and we'llstart to build it back, but we
don't need to Like.
This is all unnecessary.
And so for those of you thatare going to the polls or

(52:20):
talking to your local members orare part of the vocational
education and training system,guys, you all need to become
bigger advocates of it.
Like, become an advocate of ourinternational education system,
become an advocate of thevocational education and
training system.
Because if you want houses, ifyou want a plumber, if you want

(52:40):
an electrician, if you wantsomeone to take care of you when
you go into a retirementcommunity, if you want an
electrician, if you want someoneto take care of you when you go
into a you know retirementcommunity, if you want a nurse,
right, you need to be advocatesof our system.

Yeah, and the big thing is is and it's
not just focused on theinternational, it's and you
touched on this earlier what thebenefits are of international
students in Australia.
They actually support thefinancially support the RTOs to
be able to deliver more to thedomestic market as well, so, and

(53:11):
it also gives the domesticmarket a good opportunity to
learn from other cultures.
So there are so many benefitsof international education for
both domestic and international,and I think it's something that
we're going to lose and I hopeit's not 2028 before we build
back up our internationaleducation market again.

(53:31):
So let's now focus on.
You know, if we could providethe solutions to ASQA and to the
government, what changes wouldyou like to see from ASQA to
make the compliance process moretransparent and supportive,
especially for quality focusedCRICOS RTOs?

So, like, look within the CRICOS space.
I think the regulatoryframework is there and I do
believe that you know ASQAqua,the guys that they've created,
are a great start.
I think it would be good forthe regulatory team to
understand that part of theirrole is is educated, is

(54:15):
educative, right, um, everyaudit, um is educative, and I
think an initial determinationgets made okay, are you going to
be willing?
Are you going to be willing to?
Are you going to be willing tolisten and improve?
Okay, and obviously there'sgoing to be some circumstances
where the breaches are so badthat we can't give you another

(54:36):
opportunity.
However, I think, when thebreaches are minor, as to like
know, we can see, like let,we're going to come out and
we're going to observe, we'regoing to, we're going to see
what your training looks likeand we're going to see what your
practical training looks likeand if we can see that the
students are showing up and wecan see that the training is

(54:59):
actually occurring and we cansee that the assessment process
is authentic in that practicalskills, be they business,
practical skills ofcommunicating and presenting and
negotiating, or you know whatwe would typically call
old-fashioned hard skills of youknow building homes connecting.

(55:20):
You know wires.
Um, you know physicallycreating a.
You know wires.
You know physically creating a.
You know a dish.
You know caring for a person.
You know caring for a simulatedperson, changing a diaper right
.
Any of those things are beingdone and you've got the
resources to do them and you'vegot the trainers to deliver them
and the students are showing upand they're everyone's giving a

(55:41):
genuine most people are givinga genuine face effort to try and
do the right thing.
We're going to give you thatleeway and that grace right to
improve and we're going toexplain to you in very clear
terms where you're not meetingthe standards and we're going to
provide you with how you needto then go about addressing that

(56:04):
.

Okay, and that could be or what is the
evidence we're looking for?

that's right.
We're going to give you, we'regoing to give you an idea of
what we're looking for and we'regoing to operate in good faith,
that you are operating in goodfaith.
And where we find providersthat are not operating in good
faith, all right.
Even then, we are going to bevery clear where they are not
meeting the standard and thatstandard is going to be

(56:31):
consistent, because faith in theregulator, faith in our
government, is an incrediblyimportant part of being able to
continue to see our industrygrow.
And when RTOs lose faith in theregulator, they go rogue.
Quite often it then becomes howcan I get past the regulator as

(56:56):
opposed to how can I meet thequality standard, work with them
, and we've seen that happenbefore in the past.
We saw it in the wake of 2009.
That that the strategy was well.
Effort, let's just take him toart, right like there will be
people who will be willing toblow that money and we'll take

(57:16):
the rent.
We'll waste the regulators timealong with it.
There are people.
The other strategy was allright.
Fine, I'm going to call in myfavors.
I'm going to go to theministers and you know like none
of those strategies are goodfor the regulator or good for
our industry.

And good for Australia.
It's not.
We need to have that qualityeducation and we need like, when
I talk about transparency, weneed transparency of what is
sufficient evidence, like Iremember when we used to have
the guide, the evidence guide,or that would have been 2015,.

(57:55):
I suppose they had thatevidence guide and in that
evidence guide, they actuallyshowed you this is the evidence
that we're looking for.
Yeah, I think we need to goback to that.

Look to be honest, there are that many RTOs
that like, for example, okay,asqa does go and audit RTOs and
they pass their assessment tools.
Yeah, talk to the RTO and sayhey guys, are you open to your
assessment tool being put upthere as an example?
Because I don't know many RTOsthat wouldn't do that.
Like, I've put my hand up as aresource provider that literally

(58:31):
sells my resources.
I've said to the regulator onthat many occasions I've gone
like dude, take my assessmenttools, I'll give you, like, I'll
give you an assessment toolfrom every training package.
I will let your auditors go totown on them, we will get them
so that every single auditorthinks they're compliant.
And then I will happily signover that ip to you and you can

(58:54):
put them up on the ask forwebsite as an example of a
compliant assessment tool.
Like I, I will.
I honestly, if that's, if thatwould help our industry, I've
got no problems with that.
I have no issues with thatwhatsoever.
Right, there are so many peoplethat want to help and want to,
but those sorts of like aconcrete example of what a good

(59:15):
checklist looks like.
Right, pick a unit BSB TWK 201,bsb SUS 211, right, which, like
tens of thousands of thoseunits are issued a year HLT AID
009, right, which, like tens ofthousands of those units are
issued a year HLT AID 009, rightthose hundreds of thousands of
that unit is issued a year.
Take a unit, show us what acompliant assessment tool looks

(59:37):
like and I can guarantee thatyou will have RTOs adopting that
style of an assessment tool.
Rtos want to do the right thing.

And what type of evidence do they
need to demonstrate tocontextualise as well, because,
of course, we're always going tofall back on ASK.
We're always going to fall backon.
Well, you need to contextualiseit for your individual RTO.
What does that look like?
How do we do that?

Lauren Boon-Hollows (01:00:03):
That's right, but but like that's it,
like it's you know, okay, sothat's in the instructions or
that's in the benchmarks for theobservations, right, or that's
you know.
Like again, like you know,that's in the exemplar responses
you know for the writtenquestions, like it's there, give
us some, give RTOs sometangible examples, because if

(01:00:24):
you've given them a whole bunchof really tangible examples of
like what a good policyprocedure looks like, what a
good TAS template, I've been,I've been begging them for years
to go produce a TAS template,produce a trainer matrix
template, like, seriously, guys,give RTOs those two documents.
Guys, give out those twodocuments.

(01:00:48):
Every RTO will adopt it.
They will adopt it, I promiseyou, and it means it means less
sales for you and me.
But honestly, you and me wouldbe like the first people to put
our hands up and go I don't care, I'm willing to lose the
revenue on those particularproducts to see our industry be
more consistent and to see ourregulator you know support even
the previous standards, so Ithink it was in the 2011, 2012

(01:01:09):
they actually had the actualareas that they wanted within
the TAS, which they haven't.

Angela Connell-Richards (01:01:15):
They haven't even got anything like
that now, but at least then you,you knew what.
We wrote our TAS around thoseexact standards and we did it in
order of the standards as well,and that made it much easier.
Now, when you've been in theindustry for as long as we have,
we've seen what works, whatdoesn't work, and I mean not
only what works and what doesn'twork for ASQA, I mean for the

(01:01:38):
trainer, for the RTO as well,and making sure that we've got
that framework, and I do agreewith that.
I've seen so many people goingwhy don't they just provide us,
like the government, justprovide us with all the
documents and all the policiesand procedures and things like
that?
And I'm going well, how do theydo that when there's so many

(01:02:00):
different?

Because what works for a mom-and-pop
business versus what works for aTAFE is not going to be the
same thing yeah, yeah.

So you do need to have it so that it's
contextualized for your industrysector, for your learner
cohorts, for so your RTO whatmakes?
You unique?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Safe funding, yes, yes,definitely as well.
All right, so we've talked alot today.
It's been a very, very bigtopic for us to talk on.

(01:02:28):
If there's one thing you wantpolicymakers and ASQA to
understand about the cryocrosssector right now, what would
that be?

I want the government to know that they're
missing an opportunity.
Removing internationaleducation is not going to get us
the houses that we need.
Deregulation and supportingmore strategically directing our
visas to the qualificationsthat we need is what is going to

(01:03:01):
get us more houses, because inorder to get more houses, we
need more builders, morebrickies, more carpenters, more
electricians and more plumbers,and that's what we need in
Australia, and we are not goingto get that through trainees and
apprentices only.
I would love it if we could.
My son's just starting anelectrical apprenticeship.
I'm so proud of him.

(01:03:22):
I have another son coming upand I'm sure he will go into an
apprenticeship as well.
Both my boys have been massiverecipients of the vocational
education sector and they bothknow that that's kind of that's
where we're going to bedirecting them, because skills
are crucial.
But a better way to address theinternational crisis would be to

(01:03:43):
link employment of your visawith the qualification that you
are studying.
So if you are studying to be anengineer, you need to be
working as an engineer.
If you are studying as a nurse,you need to be doing work in

(01:04:06):
that field of nursing right.
Not as an actual nurse, but,like you know, working in a
hospital to some extent orworking, you know, like if
you're studying to be a chef,you need to be working in a
restaurant.
If you are studying to work inyou know, studying aged care or
community services, you need tobe working in that industry.
Right?
Link it to that.
That will naturally probablyshrink the vocational market,
but what it will also do is itwill also ensure that the

(01:04:26):
international market is actuallysupporting the areas and the
skill shortages that need it,because we are always going to
have a skill shortage inAustralia and the international
students that come in to lose a$50 billion industry in
Australia.
At this particular point intime, with the international

(01:04:49):
market as it is, I think we arebeing silly.
I think our politicians arebeing very silly and I think
that it's okay for every normalperson to be talking to their
government and to be saying hey,guys, I get that this is the
issue that you're saying, butmaybe it's not the win that you
think it is.

Yeah, yeah, yep, totally agree with
those.
And finally, what gives youhope right now for the future of
international education inAustralia, and hopefully it's
before 2028.

What gives me hope is the fact that we've
weathered these storms beforeand we still have a thriving.
We still have a thrivingvocational education market.
We still have brilliantproviders in the public and the
private sector.
We still have passionateconsultants, ceos, rto trainers

(01:05:48):
that are still willing to fightfor our industry.
And those people change overtime because I get, you can only
fight for so long.
I just genuinely I see, I getto see so many trainers and

(01:06:09):
developers and RTOs investing injust creating these beautiful
programs and changing people'slives that I can't be anything
other than positive, like Ican't be anything other than a
passionate, positive advocatefor our sector.
Because what, what, what we doin this industry?
We can.
They don't do it.
And it doesn't happen in um, itdoesn't happen in the schools,
it doesn't happen in theuniversities, it happens in the

(01:06:31):
rto colleges.

So I think that's something we're
fighting for, yeah, and I I'veexperienced this personally
myself, and it's it's somethingI've spoken about many, many
times education changes lives,and it's something I've spoken
about many, many times.
Education changes lives, andit's not just the student, it's
the lives around the student aswell.
And you do see a big impactwith vet sector, because there

(01:06:53):
are applicable skills that theycan apply and also not only
apply them, grow through that aswell.
So not only apply them, growthrough that as well.
Well, thank you once again,lauren, for today, on a very hot
topic, we changed the subjectof what we were going to talk

(01:07:15):
about, because sometimes this iswhat we need to do.
We just need to discuss what'sactually happening right now,
and I thank you for being veryopen and honest, lauren, with
your thoughts of where we're at,in particular, with
international education.
Let's hope that we get thechange, we get international
students back into Australia andwe get back to that number one

(01:07:36):
position of the biggest exportout of Australia, because it was
something I've always beenproud of and, I think, proud of
this sector as well, and I thinkit could make a massive change.
Thank you very much Until nexttime.
We'll see you at our next RTOSuperhero Podcast.

Thanks guys .

Right.

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