Rugby Direct - Episode 148

On Rugby Direct, Elliott Smith and Liam Napier wrap up the 2024 All Blacks season and hand out some awards from the campaign and get out their red pens and mark the season that was.

We dig into the eligibility saga as it continues to rage around New Zealand rugby, ask whether Joe Schmidt will stay in charge of the Wallabies beyond the Lions series and also flag a potential job he could take up if not and give our thoughts on the Sevu Reece saga.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Yet inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct
with Elliott Smith, powered by News Talks EDB.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome into Rugby Direct, power by Access Solutions, elevating you
and your business to a higher level. Elliott Smith with
me Liam Napier and for the first time in many weeks,
we are face to face in the Rugby Direct studio.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
Liam, good to see you.

Speaker 4 (00:39):
Great to see you mate, and welcome home. And I
was a long arduist tour and finished with a bit
of snow and some pasta.

Speaker 5 (00:47):
But you're looking well. I haven't had much resk, but
it's great to heav be back.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
It's good to be here. Yes we were.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
We've been hit the half, hit the ground running, getting
back into public demand. Have been clamoring for the podcasts.
I said it was going to be the end of
the week after she Room. We've had to delay. We
are here now and ready to wrap up an all
Black season which was a bit of a roller coaster.
I guess Liam, if we head straight into it and
the roller coaster at the end sort of putted out

(01:15):
a little bit and wasn't quite the climax to the
season or the ride that many expected.

Speaker 3 (01:20):
It to be.

Speaker 4 (01:21):
Now, I guess the finish was deflating, wasn't it. It
was a flop of a finale in Turin and it
has that context because of the team that the All
Black selected Traditionally Italy at the end of the year.
While they are an improving team, it is a chance
to use your fringe prospects to promote those who haven't

(01:44):
played a lot this year. If we think about the
guys like Stephen Peterfetta who was left out in the
coll for this test, Ruben Love, a number of other
guys on the fringe of the squad weren't used, and
so the desire from the All Blacks was to finish
with a definitive statement, particularly after the disappointment the week

(02:05):
before of batching the Test against France Paris and having
established combinations, rolling out your best available team. The expectation
was the All Blacks would largely put Italy to the sword,
and that didn't happen, and there was real frustration both

(02:26):
within the camp and externally because of that. It was
a really scrappy performance they got frustrated by the Italians, who,
to their credit, brought a lot of passion their line
speed on defense, they made a mess of the All
Blacks right position. But if you sat back, if there
was one team that was happy with that performance, not

(02:47):
necessarily a result, it was Italy.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
It was and I think Italy did a lot of
work on defense and the lead up to that test
didn't do a lot on attack is my understanding around
some of their practice, and basically scrambled and defended I
thought very very well at times frustrated the All Blacks
around the right didn't allow them a lot of clean ball.
But I think what we saw from that All Blacks

(03:11):
selecting a relatively first choice team, the players looked tired.
It was they just looked like players that have played
three big tests in a row. And traditionally, as you said,
when you go on these tours, you have a bit
of a plan around which players are going to play
which tests, and obviously injuries come in and can change it.
But they did look like a tired team. They look

(03:33):
like a team that could use a break, that could
use a summer break, that had been playing all the
way back since February for Super Rugby so and in
some cases you know japan players Ardie and Bowden barrett
I been playing since December, so I think there was
a bit of a lesson there for Scott Robertson and
that you just can't play these players week in week out,

(03:55):
especially when you have the big three matches on the
tour without wanting to be disrespectful to Japan or Italy.
It was always set up to be England, Ireland and
France as the middle three weeks. Those are the big
matches and there are a precious few opportunities to learn
about players in a test rugby environment. And you look
at next year, okay, second stringth French teams luckly to

(04:16):
come Rugby Championship, then a Grand Slam Tour, certainly not
many opportunities on the face of it next year, maybe
against Wales potentially at the end of the year, but
very few opportunities to learn without wanting to disrespect Italy.
This was a chance, I think, to not only bring
in some new players and get some fresh blood in
there and learn about these players while balancing a performance imperative,

(04:37):
but also give some of these players that are been
playing three consecutive weeks, you know, a bit of a
breather and you know, whilst the TD I've been playing
is there was his fifth straight test, fifth country, five weeks,
five tests. So I think it was a bit of
lesson there for Scott Robinson and the All Blacks coaching
stuff that you can't just flog these players into the
ground week after week.

Speaker 4 (04:56):
Yeah, massively, and all conventional wisdom tells you an international
rugby in particular that you can't play. You think about
a World Cup context. Everyone talks about having to play
three knockout matches in a row and how that's extremely taxing. Now,
while the Northern Tours not the World Cup, the All

(05:16):
Blacks played England, Island and France in fifteen days. I
think it was huge ask to do that from a
physicality point of view, from a mental toll, you're traveling
admittedly not large distances, but you have come from Japan.
All those things have a cumulative effect. The match was

(05:38):
England to Ireland was a six day turnaround, and yeah,
you've got players like Wallace a tit adjusting to the
international stage. So it was a faux pas from the
All Blacks to not recognize the fatigue and and a
missed opportunity, Like you say to not give those players
opportunities because they don't come around every day. And if

(06:03):
you're on tour, if you're a guy like Stephen Peter
Fetter and you've played one game against Japan, what sort
of encouragement does that give you for the following year
when you've been waiting to have some form of exposure
to You only learn through doing through game time. So
a big faux pas, I think from the All Blacks
from a selection perspective, A because they didn't get the performance,

(06:26):
but B because there was a common theme I think
with being overly conservative. And I guess we'll come to
that when we look at the overall complexion of the season.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
Yeah, let's look at the tour overall. I think you
have to in my mind, I think you regard it
as a success. Two wins over England and Ireland at
one point lost to France. It could have gone the
other way but for our Georgian friend having some interesting interpretations.
Whether they would have won it another matter entirely, but
certainly the refereeing didn't help in that test. Then a

(06:58):
poor performance against it lead How would you classify the
end of Year tour Abortion of the All Black Season.

Speaker 4 (07:04):
Yeah, I think it was a success definitely. If you
take a step back and think about where the All
Blacks were going into that tour, you and I expected
predicted they would lose one test, and for me that
was actually hugely optimistic. I went away thinking, actually, maybe
I should have said two losses, because that was more
realistic in my mind at the time. The one over

(07:27):
Islands was hugely significant. I think there is a bit
of context in that that the All Black's got them cold,
but I think we saw throughout November that maybe Islands stagnating, declining,
So the All Blacks deserve that victory. The one over England.
It's never easy to win at Twickenham and France. They

(07:50):
should have won that so that they were one point
away from an unbeaten Northern Tour. And I know just
from listening to some of the players and Scott Robinson
that he built the theme of that tour around trying
to replicate the Invincibles, you know, it's like with the
the themes, and they were very close and I think

(08:13):
they largely exceeded expectations. But the book nding that tour
with that performance against Italy does leave you a few
rocks under the beach towels, or it wasn't the lasting
impression that the All Blacks wanted to leave.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
It's always the last test of the year. Let's leave
aside World Cup years because that is obvious that that
is always going to leave aside a different feeling. But
you think back twenty twenty two the drawer against England,
Wich should have been a comfortable victory at Twickenham twenty
twenty one, the lost to France to end the year
twenty twenty was a different years, so.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
Let's leave that aside.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
But it's always that last performance and you think all
the way back to twenty twelve when they were beaten
by England comfortably at Tweklom. I think it was thirty
eight to twenty one. Off the top of my head.
It's that last performance of the year which is the
calling card, the signature moment that people remember as they
go into summer.

Speaker 4 (09:05):
What shapes the narrative of the season. I guess what
it all so says is probably from physically we've touched on,
but mentally it is really tough when you can see
the finish line, when you know you're going to fly home.
Maybe you've mentally got one foot on the plane. You're
thinking about seeing your family, or getting home, getting some sun,

(09:28):
taking the boots off, whatever it may be. But anytime,
even outside of a sporting context, when the finish line
is in sight, it can be really hard to just
get there. It's within touching distance. So those results speak
to that, don't they. This was a fourteen test season
for the All Blacks, nine tests away from home. It

(09:48):
was a brutally tough campaign, two tests in the Republic
and a new group.

Speaker 5 (09:55):
So look, the end of your.

Speaker 4 (09:56):
Tour was a success, but that the last performance does
shape the narrative.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
Before we get into some awards, Liam, i'mlet's throw something
at you. Are the All Blacks in a better spot
at the end of this year than they were at
the end of last year?

Speaker 4 (10:12):
I don't know, you're not comparing apples with apples because
those players, you know, the centurions moving on. Is that
a lot of those guys that are replaceable Brodierrotelic, Sam White, Locke,
Aaron Smith, generational players, right, And I think that coaching

(10:33):
team at the back end of last year had got
the All Blacks to a very strong position, and we
saw that they probably should have won the World Cup.
What I would say about this All Black team is
they did have a roller coaster year, but they have
really unearthed some potential generational players as well. And my
frustration is some of those guys weren't promoted early enough

(10:56):
or enough throughout the year. But there's a lot more
growth in this team. If you had to pin me
down to an answer, I would say, no, you well.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
Those points you raise are very valid. I think they haven't.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
I mean, if you look at it at the start
of the year, middle of the year, there wasn't a
lot of confidence that this team could go north and
only lose one game. You know, we talked about it
that maybe losing two was a real possibility. So I
think maybe not year or year, but certainly from the
middle point of the year, after they're loss to Argentina

(11:34):
and South Africa was a three straight games, I think
they lost at that point that middling performance in Sydney
was very good first half Paul second half. To come
out of that, I think and ascend towards the end
of the year. I think they're in a better spot
than they were middle a year but I don't know
about you, and you'm going to take the was it
played the fifth on that one? Vince that that's the word. Yeah,

(11:57):
I guess you look at a selection point of view
before dig into those awards. Probably conservatism is that the
overall arching theme of the year from the or bakes.
In some ways that's good because I think they've given
We've debated this on the our podcast before about around
Sam came. I think he was the best player in
the position until he leaves that's his jersey. But I

(12:17):
would have liked to see more of Billy Proctor this year.
Obviously left the two early for the birth of his child,
so we didn't see him. Whether we would have seen
him against Italy on this team that was selected, probably
not so. I think it took a while, but there
were signs there that he began to find a little
bit more about players, but probably goes back to that
Italy point, just a little bit too much conservatism around

(12:38):
the overall selection of the other team.

Speaker 4 (12:40):
Yeah, I think what we saw from Raza was he
felt the weight of expectation. There is a massive difference
between Super Rugby and the All Blacks, and I think
the burden of history, of the legacy of the National
spotlight weighed on him heavily and we saw that that
was born out in his selections. The vast majority of

(13:04):
the development came this year.

Speaker 5 (13:07):
It was forced.

Speaker 4 (13:08):
Wallace the Tt only got his chance in South Africa
because of an injury to Dalton Papale.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yeah and Ethan blackhad was injured for that second Test,
and Captain.

Speaker 4 (13:20):
Peter Luckeye doesn't play probably for the All Blacks on
the Northern Tour if Dalton papal Ly, Luke Jacobson and
Ethan Blackheader don't are if they're not injured. He doesn't
play seventy eight minutes off the bench against Ireland. Al
Moor doesn't get the time that he does against England

(13:41):
and Ireland if Cody Taylor's not injured. Cortez Ratsma's one
guy that they did promote and Tupu Vai was a
great success. But then you look at someone like Severy Reese.
The faith and loyalty was retained in him far too
long and so they got that call roll largely for

(14:03):
the bulk of the season, with Mark Talia coming through
at the back end of the year. Billy Procter, another
you mentioned they're not used throughout the whole Rugby Championship,
but that's just a did set shocker. He was one
of the four midfielders in Super Rugby. The Puma's loss
in Wellington really shell shock Bill Blacks. I think they

(14:24):
had targeted the second Test at Eden Park as a
chance to bring some of those goes through. But when
they lost that game, they battened down the hatches and
it became all about winning. And yes, you have to
win Test rugby, but you also have to develop players
and you can't do that through not playing guys. And

(14:44):
I think there was even that game and Wellington. You know,
when did Scott Robinson become so sentimental with starting you
know TJ. Peternara in that Test and Wellington when courses
lastma had played so well the week before. Some of
those selections I struggled with. Yeah, I just feel like

(15:04):
a lot of those guys needed to be promoted. Stephen
Peter Fetzer was another. Why didn't he get at least
one Test at ten? You know he's sitting back now
thinking well, where am I in the pecking order. I
would not be surprised in any way, shape or form
if he leaves for Japan in the near future. He
hasn't been nurtured, hasn't been given an opportunity. Looking at
getting Richie back, you go further down the pecking order.

(15:25):
We've already seen it with Harry Plummer that scenario. So
if you don't give these guys the opportunities, if you
don't nurture them, if you don't develop them, they're going
to leave. So the overarching theme for me from this
All Black coaching team was conservatism when it came to selection,
and I think that was just the difference the weight
of expectation when it came to results.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
Let's move on to some of the awards for the
season that we've conjured up. That leads us nicely into
a best selection, worse selection. Liam your thoughts and feelings
on the best selection for the All Blacks this year
and the worst one?

Speaker 4 (16:01):
Well, the best, as I mentioned it was forced. But
Wallace the TC, you know what a absolute revelation he's
been coming and starting against the box and Cape Town.
Just his all roundability, isn't it. It's his footwork at
the line, his destructive ball carrying. I think it's got
a bit of work to do on his defense and

(16:24):
patience to a degree to you know, throwing a wild
offload where maybe he should go down, but sometimes that
sticks and he's a superstar.

Speaker 5 (16:32):
It's a fine line.

Speaker 4 (16:33):
So whether he played blindside or number eight, he's the
future of the All Blacks loose forward so best and
this will come as no shock to you, the worst
Chaffey Harkeey mate.

Speaker 3 (16:45):
Wow was he selected?

Speaker 5 (16:48):
He was in the squad.

Speaker 3 (16:49):
I can't have a crack at Schaefe mate.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
I'm going to go best selection. Agree with you on
was so Tisi? Yeah, I mean hard to go past him,
isn't it the impact that he's had in the year.
We went talking about him at the start of the
year on Rugby Derick as a Chiefs play a little alone,
you know, the way that he's come on to the team.
So I agree with that. Look. Phinlay Christie is probably
the worst selection. It felt like time to move on
around the half backs and Ken Roygard was injured, but

(17:14):
they clung on to him for a little bit and
then cut the rope after that England series. I get
they wanted experience, but it just felt like time had
moved on a little bit from Finlay Christie I think
he did a good job under Ian Foster.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
He has played very well for the Blues.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
But in terms of international rugby, I think the jury's
always been out on Finlay, so I think they kept
him and then probably kept him on a little bit
too long for that England series once had found Nola
Hotham and we're comfortable with that.

Speaker 3 (17:42):
That was the end of that. Best performance, worst performance
of the year.

Speaker 4 (17:45):
Best performance is Ireland because of the way they finished
that game and throughout this year the Rugby Championship five
final quarter fades and France as well. Second half performance
you mentioned obviously the Georgian referee and other circumstances. The
TMO coming in and didn't help the All Blacks, but

(18:07):
their second half was infinitely worse. They didn't control the
pace in tempo, they made a number of different eras
against front so the back end the matches has been
a big issue for the All Blacks and they flipped
that script against Island. The bench came on, made a
massive impact and they've finished over the top of Ireland,
scoring late, winning by ten points. So and that was

(18:29):
their biggest scalp of the year. Worst performance probably the
Pumas and Wellington. There was real panic in the ranks.
You think about that double pass where they'd lost forty
meters under their own goal line. We're just like, what
the hell is going on here? Is this the All Blacks?
There is this under fives rugby that you don't see

(18:52):
those sort of basic eras from the All Blacks.

Speaker 5 (18:55):
So there was real panic.

Speaker 4 (18:58):
It seemed like there was a lack of leadership, lack
of composure, and it was it was hard to unravel
what was unfolding before your eyes. I think the worst
loss for me was was France in Paris, because the
All Blacks were the better team, but the worst performance
was the Pumas.

Speaker 2 (19:16):
I agree on the Pumas almost slightly different and so
the worst performance was that last forty minutes against Australia
in Sydney, because it was atrociously bad. I mean it
was everything that could go wrong was possibly going wrong
in that game that they were on track at one
point to blitz them by sixty. Really they started that
game so strongly and then just completely looked like a

(19:39):
different team after halftime. So worst performance is that forty
minutes against Australia. Best performance after grew with Island I
was going to go trying to go somewhere different and
try and be a little bit cute about my answer here.
I was going to say the first seventy minutes at
Alice Park all the first forty minutes that start to France.
But that probably paints a bit of a picture, isn't
it that the All Blacks this year have been a

(20:00):
team of halves, a team of moments, a team of
passages of play, but not a team of eighty minutes.

Speaker 4 (20:06):
Yeah, consistently inconsistent. Just on that Sydney performance, the All
Blacks had fourteen yellow cards in their last ten tests
and so that's one major area that proved costly this year.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
They started very strongly on that front and it got
worse and worse and worse the year went on. So
that's something they need to look at heading into next year,
is the discipline and how far that line goes. Player
of the Year one back, one forward, please limb.

Speaker 4 (20:36):
I'm going to go to Pouvai for four of the year.
If you go back to the start of this year,
Sam White, Locke, Brody Rittelic gone, Scott Barrett, miss chunks
of this year through Andrew Patrick Tupolo to the same.
If there was one area Scott Robinson was sitting up
at night in a cold sweat, it was Locke and

(20:58):
Tupuv had done a four year apprenticeship behind those guys,
not really proven himself because he hadn't had the opportunities.
He played blindside a wee but played lock. But this
was his year and he seized it big time against
and big Test too again against the box in South
Africa Ireland England became a real presence at the line

(21:21):
out over the ball as well, very mobile, so he
was a big mover for me in the forward pack
and in the back line. This is much tougher because
Dealix took a long time to find a lot of
their selections and there was a lot of change. I'm

(21:44):
going to probably say someone like.

Speaker 3 (21:49):
Here we go, here we go.

Speaker 4 (21:53):
Well, Jordan, I think by the back end of this
year he was a big mover. He's been waiting a
long time for that fifteen role. Wasn't perfect, had a
tough introduction coming back from shoulder injury. Was really scratchy.
In his first Test at fullback this year in Cape Town,
had it under the bar Ja hyball with the box

(22:13):
but I just think he brings a real different attacking
dimension and he is a more traditional fullback than what
the All Blacks have used in the last World Cup cycle.
When you think about Boden Barrett, who was probably more
a kick first fullback, where Will Jordan's very much run
first and he's a real attacking weapon. I think he's
got thirty eight trials and forty one tests just unreal

(22:34):
strike great.

Speaker 5 (22:35):
So I'll go of Jordan my.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
Forward of the year. I'm going to a Wallace to
TZ look tossed up between two Bovin and Wallace to TV.
In fact, you could throw Troll Omex in there as well.
Maybe Cody Taylor if he'm playing against Ireland one of
those big tests he missed obviously through the head knock
in England as well.

Speaker 5 (22:54):
Tyro in particular, absolute rock Well.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
The first choice, probably the best in the world actually
in his position. He's got to that point. So I'm
going to Wallace to TV just for the impact he
made to that All Blacks team from as we touched
on before, from nowhere to being a bolted on first
choice player by the end of the season. I'm giving
it to Wallace to Titi so I'm locking him as
my forward back is a tough choice.

Speaker 3 (23:18):
I'm gonna get Caleb Clark.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yeah, good shot, because you think aback the last year
at the World Cup, he didn't get a lot of opportunities.
He was pretty much out of it. He was in
the squad, but it's pretty much not in the first
choice twenty three, or if he was, he was breeding
twenty three. This year he had a very good Super
Rugby season hat trick in the final and then built himself,
I thought, into clearly the first choice left winger in
the All Blacks once again. So for a player that

(23:41):
burst onto the scene in twenty twenty probably had an
ill fated and a trip to the sevens and twenty
one that maybe you want to take back and injuries
and things like that, I think Caleb Clark gets my.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
Vote for the Back of the Year.

Speaker 4 (23:52):
So just on that though, you rattled off a number
of names in the forward pack, which I agree with,
and the backlune we're both struggling, which says a lot.
I think about the All Blacks attack yep. And the
performance of the back line as a whole.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
Well, I think yeah, And you did a piece on
this we'll get into a prediction fortween twenty five shortly,
but I think that the issue going twenty twenty f
what is the best nine through fifteen And also the
bench make up for the All Blacks. I think in
a weird way, they've got the best players in the
positions in the country in those juerseys, but that doesn't
necessarily mean the the best players for the All Blacks
back line. And you look at that Jordi Barrett, Rico

(24:26):
you won in midfield. Both exceptional players. But I don't
know that All Blacks are getting enough out of midfield
at the moment in terms of their attack. Ten Boden
Barrett came in there later in the season. I thought
he was assured and pretty good in those performances. I
like Damian McKenzie coming off the bench. I think that's
the position that I would have him in. Boden Barretts

(24:48):
will come off the bench at the start of the
year and perform very very well. Those are kind of
impact players. But the back line I think is the
big work on for the All Blacks going into twenty
twenty five.

Speaker 4 (24:58):
Yeah, at its big time, And I agree with you
about the midfield. I don't think it was Jordie's greatest year.
I don't know if they're using Rico and the best
way he Rico is hugely or a. He's polarizing and
I don't think people are seeing enough from him on attack,
but he is an absolute rock on defense and he

(25:19):
was huge in that Irish tests Wyin shut down Bundy
a key forced him into a number of different eras.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah, he's huge on attack, He's sorry huge on defense.
He is probably the best defensive center in the world.

Speaker 4 (25:32):
But they were using him a lot. Hardball carries short
balls at the line into content and there was a
lot of lost position in that way. So I think
the midfield does needs just give some people an opportunity.
We mentioned Billy Proctor aj Lamb. I think you know
there's others around. So if I looked at the All

(25:55):
Blacks back line as a whole, you'd say camera regards
locked at halfback on form currently Caleb Clark and Mark
Dala on the wings and Will Jordan at fullback, and
you would say that the midfield is largely set. But
I would like to see a bit of experimentation there
and I think longer term it's proven that other wingers
will emerge as well. That they the All Blacks tend

(26:18):
to pick on form and World Cup years struck while
they Ron's hot with wingers. That that's how it tends
to happen. Tends a bit of a state of flux.
So yeah, the back line is the real interesting touch
point for next year. They need more from the All Black.
We need to see more continuity, strike plays, attacking punch

(26:39):
from the All Blacks.

Speaker 3 (26:40):
Don't we do.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
I think that is that the major work on heading
into the year. Let's give us a rating for the
All Blacks out of ten for the season or a
great which everyone you prefer.

Speaker 4 (26:51):
I'm going to go C plus. Did that for the
written piece and I'm happy with it. I think it's
a patchy pass. If you look at the context of
the year, you know they started, I think take a
step back.

Speaker 5 (27:06):
This was the biggest.

Speaker 4 (27:09):
Coaching management change for the All Blacks in twenty years
and that is significant. It is going to take time,
but there was errors made. Leo McDonald came and went
very abruptly five tests into the year. That's a black
mark on the season. A costly payouts for.

Speaker 5 (27:29):
Leon to go.

Speaker 4 (27:31):
He was signed for four years paid out for two
So the All Black start the year patchy, trying to
integrate all these changes with England the Raby Championships fifty percent,
they lose the Freedom Cup for the first time since
two thousand and nine and the Rabby Championship for the
first time in five years as well.

Speaker 5 (27:51):
Context as well.

Speaker 4 (27:52):
You know, the Springboks are the best team in the
world and quite far ahead of everyone else at the moment,
and you go into their backyard, the All Blacks could
wold have should have won that and then they have
a successful end of year tour.

Speaker 5 (28:03):
So for me, it's a patchy pass.

Speaker 4 (28:06):
We've talked about the selections, inconsistencies within games, the promise
of emerging talents, and this coaching team hopefully getting better,
but I want to see more.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
I'm going to be minus just on the basis that
interviewed too, because it could have you know, if they've
lost twice then there's some serious questions and there are
serious questions, but it could have been some serious questions
heading into the off season around the direction of this team.
But the fact that they beat England and I lost
by one point just elevates them above a you know,
seas to get degrees, but be minus for me at
the end of the year.

Speaker 4 (28:39):
Okay, And so what about Razor, Let's give him a mark.
It's his first year. He's come off the back of
seven titles for the Crusaders, stepped into the role he's
coveted for so long. I think he had nine months
to prepare for it. He was appointed, you know, prior
to the World Cup that was highly controversial, had all
that time to prepare his strategy team. But there's nothing

(29:01):
like being in the hot seat.

Speaker 5 (29:03):
How did he go?

Speaker 2 (29:04):
Look, I think he learned over the course of the
year things about Test rugby coaching wise. Obviously he's played it,
but the game has moved on a bit since he
played it. Obviously way different to Super rugby. The management
of players. You know, we touched on the Italy performance then,
but if that was Super rugby and it was say,

(29:25):
substitute Mowana Pacifica in that era for athlete, then Scott
Robinson's banking change that the Crusaders to keep his players fresh.
But because that pressure environment of Test rugby is so absolute,
he doesn't feel comfortable yet enough to trust the players
that he's got. So look, I think you look at

(29:45):
it and go could have been a bit more ruthless.
I mean I spoke to him after the game for
an interview at season review and he said similar lines.
Could he have been more ruthless or could he have
made those decisions? And that's something that keeps him up
at night. Got rid of Leo on McDonald when it
was clear it wasn't working. But I think you need
to probably impart more of that ruthlessness and inverted commas
into selections and team strategy. So probably give it a

(30:11):
similar All Blacks grade B plus be minus brother.

Speaker 4 (30:15):
I'm going to give Razor a C. I think it
was a big, big learning year for him. I think
he will be better for the experience. But there were
a lot of challenges for him on the Leo McDonald front,
and there were potential inconsistencies as well. When you look
at Damian McKenzie missing the bus in San Diego and
not getting any punishment, Ethan de Groot breaks curfew in

(30:37):
Japan gets a one game punishment. Those are the things
that can create a bit of dissatisfaction within the team.
I think it's.

Speaker 5 (30:46):
Tough any well.

Speaker 4 (30:50):
Scott Barrets's captain, and that's not a new partnership, but
it is elevated to a whole other level. Coming into
the All Blacks, He's got a whole new coaching team,
so major challenges. But I think rightly or wrongly, there
were massive expectations on Razor and he hasn't met those yet.

Speaker 5 (31:08):
But I'll give him a pass for this year.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Okay, let's move on to you had an all backs
boulterer for twenty twenty five that you wanted to throw
at me.

Speaker 4 (31:17):
Yes, not going to be the one you thought. And
this is my This is not the way I would go.
But Shaffi Hockey Razor is big on experience, right. We've
seen that this year with Sam came and TJ. Peter Andara.
I can see them going back to Finlay Christie and
the half bat mix. I don't know if no Hopam

(31:40):
is going to be deemed ready, and with TJ. Peter
and A moving on, I feel like they're going to
want a safety blanket.

Speaker 5 (31:48):
That's a bit of experience.

Speaker 4 (31:49):
I know he hasn't played the same number of tests
as TJ. I would not be surprised to see Finlay
back in the mix next year. That's not the way
I would go but there's an all backs bowler, there's
a bolt. If there's a bolter for you in twenty
twenty five.

Speaker 2 (32:05):
You look at that next look, I don't think Cortius
right my head. The greatest two tours, some of that
is own doing. Some of that I thought wasn't well protected.
That ruck didn't get a lot of clean ball. The
refereeing on that was a bit dubious at times. But
the All Blacks, we're giving me a lot of protection
around the ruck in those matches he started. I think

(32:25):
there is just yea, there is a question, no doubt
about half back. Can Roy guard clearly the best half
back in New Zealand at the moment. Cortez Ratama, we'll
get another Super Rugby season under his belt next year.
You look at the Hurricanes and roygad is going to
start a lot of that game time there. The Crusaders
have Mitch Strummond, Noah Hotham, Kyle Preston down the Highlanders.

(32:47):
You know, for Fakatava, how far far has he fallen
down the ranks?

Speaker 5 (32:50):
I forgot man really isn't he?

Speaker 2 (32:52):
And you know he was the next big thing two
or three years back and now he can can't make
the All Blacks fifteen selections, So I think there is
a question mark around half back next year. Maybe maybe
you're right, Maybe maybe he's back in the mix for
next year.

Speaker 5 (33:07):
Could be.

Speaker 4 (33:08):
I think there is a real discussion to be had
about who deputizes and how you get that max right,
because as you say, Cortez was very good early on
there when he was starting, but coming off the bench
just exposed up north with that rut pressure.

Speaker 5 (33:25):
Yeah, so who's your bolter?

Speaker 2 (33:27):
Well, Olie Mathis is the player that I would look
at for the All Blacks Now. He's off playing sevens
at the moment, whether that's his choice of whether that's
a New Zealand Rocky Pathway selection or what so. He
probably not going to be playing superbar injuries or something
like that, but I'd be looking to him. Look, he
looks good enough with a bit more rugby under his
belt to be playing.

Speaker 5 (33:47):
What position does he play?

Speaker 3 (33:48):
That's the beauty of it.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
I think he could go on the bench with the
All Blacks and cover flanker or winger. And I think
that's maybe an area as well where we talk about
the strategy and various things. Is that not so much
a bomb squad, but just around using the bench in
the right positions and being a bit more innovative around
some of those selections and looking to do things a

(34:10):
little bit differently that the All Blacks could go with.
And I think someone like a hybrid player like that
could be the kind of player that you look to.

Speaker 4 (34:18):
Yeah, maybe I think he probably needs a wee bit
more size to be a test loose for but I
agree that what a valuable asset to have a guy
that can genuinely play that breadth of position.

Speaker 5 (34:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:31):
So yeah, I mean, depending on how the Stevens goes,
I'll be looking at him maybe for a need of
your two next year.

Speaker 4 (34:35):
I got another one here just on top of the
head to put you on the spot biggest mover and
next year. So it could be somebody that has played
for the All Blacks has not I'll go first to
give you a bit of time demment. So I'm going
to go Fabian Holland. For me, it was really telling
to hear Sam Caine speak so glowingly of his character.

(34:57):
Fabian has been fast tracked a little bit with the
change in eligibility played for the All Blacks fifteen spent
time in the All Blacks camp. He's a unit and
that extra height is massive from a line out target.
He will only get better under Jamie Joseph at the
Highlanders as well. I can see him surpassing Josh Lord

(35:19):
Sam Dowry and being a bolted on All Black next year.
So I'll put you on the spot here. Is there
anybody else that that could be a big mover?

Speaker 2 (35:30):
You have put me on the spot. I'm trying to
think of who might come into Ammonia and Narawa maybe well,
look Schaffy Harks. So it's hard to see. Look, I
agree on Fabian Holland. He when he was training in Turin,
and look, he is just huge. He is a huge,
big body that the All Blacks don't really produce and

(35:51):
are looking to produce. And you look at the effort
that put into trying to get Josh Lord, because I've
spotted him and gone, that's a two meter tall body
that it probably needs a bit more sized. But if
we can get him into he already plays rugby. If
we get him into our environment and get him up
to the level, then he's a you know, it could
be a test quality player hasn't had a lot of
opportunities joshlaught at either super level or Test level. But

(36:13):
Fabian Horn looks like that player that's already filled out
on the frame, that is ready to go. So I agree.
Next year I think is going to be a big
year for Fabian horned in that Max so I think, yeah,
I can't think of anyone on the top of my head,
but yeah, I think next year selections are going to
be very very interesting. Whether Scott Robertson sort of cuts

(36:34):
a few of the experienced players, whether he remains loyal
is going to be fascinating to a lot of those
players that he selected this year. I think next year's
selection is going to tell a lot more about whether
this it's all Blacks team's hitting.

Speaker 4 (36:49):
Well, we'll casting the head to next year. So let's
look at who's coming home lessifying a nook who is
coming home And when we talk about the complexion of
the midfields, a guy who's versatile can play wing, a
guy who raises very familiar withl for the Crusas and
we've seen that benefit your mate Shay Slandy Jordie is

(37:15):
a Leicester currently preparing to play his first game for
the Irish powerhouse province over there. He's going to need
to be managed next year because you talk about Boden
Barr and Ardie Severe playing in Japan and coming back
and how there's a usual adjustment period. Well, Jordie's going
to be shot. He's got no offseason. He's not going
to be able to He could walk back in and

(37:36):
play July because he'd be match foot, but he'd hit
the wall a couple of months later. So there is
going to be some change, some rotation in that midfield.
And the other guy, of course is Richie Wonger.

Speaker 3 (37:49):
Where are we at with that?

Speaker 4 (37:51):
I think he's dead set coming home to be available
for the All Blacks and twenty twenty five, so not
the Crusaders, And maybe they'll work some sort of option
where there's an agreement that he goes back to Japan
to fulfill the last year post World Cup, something like that.
But all the noise, everything from the moment Chris Lendrim

(38:14):
came on with us, has pointed to that eventuating, and
I think that will happen. Firstly, do you expect him
to come home? And secondly, is he the savior? Because
that's basically what he's been built up to be and
the perception of raises push for tweaks to the eligibility.

(38:36):
It's not all based around Richie. But he's his quarterback,
he's his guy. What if he's not, what if it
doesn't work? Is he as good as he's been built
up to be? I guess I think he will come back.

Speaker 3 (38:48):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
I mean negotiations I think is still going on in
the background. I think he will return to New Zealand
rugby and that'll be a bonus for him. Look, you
look at Richie Wong and it kind of took a
wee while from defined his feet that test level.

Speaker 3 (39:03):
And is he a better option than Bodenbauer to Iman McKinsey.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
Well, he's an out and out specialist ten and so
I can't play anywhere else in the team. I think
by the end of last year he was certainly a
very very good Test footballer. But is he the savior? No,
I don't think anyone's a savior coming back to New
Zealand rugby. I think it's wrong to paint anyone as

(39:31):
a potential savior to this All Blacks team or whatever
it might be. Is he a good player that could
add something to the All Blacks absolutely, But I think
trying to yeah, suguce that the All Blacks fortunes will
automatically rise because Richie Wong is back at ten I
think is a bit of a misstep. And he clearly
works well with Scott Robertson, knows them inside out, knows

(39:52):
the game plan, knows the way he wants to play.
But Test rugby it's so much different to Super rugby
and that's something that I'm sure you know Richie himself
would admit that it took him a while to get
to the grips of Test rugby compared to that Super plays.

Speaker 4 (40:09):
Yeah, I think he would definitely improve the All Blacks
attack because it's not just Razor, it's Scott Hansen as well.
There's clearly that established relationship understanding there. I would be
very very cautionary of expecting Ritchie to come back and
slide straight back into Test rugby. We've seen it time
and time again with guys coming back from Japan. He's
been there two years, is at least two rungs down

(40:34):
from Test rugby, and so he's going to need in
a period a period of adjustment. And then there's the
relationship dynamic between How does Razor manage that with Boden
and Dmak? Will that force one, if not both, to
leave and go to Japan post before the next World Cup.

(40:54):
So you want your best players available, but there is
consequences that will arrive out of that. So very interesting
to see how that scenario plays out. But I think
we're in agreement that he will be back next year.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
He will, that's certainly the word, and probably eligible from
what the Rugby Championship onwards. Potentially maybe that France. There
is no leicstifying who's eligible from the Rugby Championship if
memory serves, so whether it's different for Richie Morning, even
it's come from Japan and not France, is going to
be interesting.

Speaker 3 (41:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (41:24):
I think you'd expect both those guys to be floating
around the squads, whether they available or not.

Speaker 5 (41:29):
We've seen them bend the rules to suit.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
Speaking of bending the rules, eligibility again a hot topic
this year, Scott Robertson was asked on the postmatches as
well media zom for to MW Zealand Media after the
Turin test around it said some similar lines to what
he said already, keep asking the board to keep them
in an open mind. I guess the board's going to
change soon. It's going to be some different faces on there.

(41:54):
Where do you sit on that argument?

Speaker 4 (41:57):
My view hasn't really changed. I think from what I
understand Ray's argument is he wants more flexibility around Japan specifically,
and the sabbatical being increased, allowing a Richie Mouonga to
go for two years. It's a dangerous precedent because, however

(42:20):
you want to spin it, it does undermine Super Rugby massively.
And I saw recently Paul Cully did a piece with
the five check chief executives of Super Rugby. No surprises,
none of them want it, and I think the values
that competition. And I also think we need to be

(42:42):
really cautionary about saying the Springboks have got it right
because they have golden generation of players and they also
have incredible depth, and what works for them doesn't have
to work for us, and we don't know how that's
going to play out for them long term, and that this.

Speaker 5 (43:02):
Cap scenario expanding.

Speaker 4 (43:04):
The eligibility has not worked for other nations as well,
so it's not a one size fits all. So as
it stands, I'm happy without us. I would like I
don't think we should bend over backwards to suit raisor
I think the focus should be on developing players we have.

Speaker 3 (43:20):
I'd like you to keep an open mind on it, Liam,
if you could look. What I would say is.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
From my understanding from one of hers, that Japan are
lesson LEAs luckly to assign players to one year deals.

Speaker 3 (43:36):
They just don't work for them. They don't get the
value out of it.

Speaker 5 (43:38):
And that makes sense, doesn't it.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
And so if players are offering, sorry, if clubs are
offering two year deals to players and going come up
for two years, then they resigned for New Zealand Rugby.
After that there remain eligible for the all Black skin
entire time. I don't know that I have a huge
issue with that necessarily.

Speaker 4 (43:54):
How many of you letting go though, because then you
take Artie severe Rich and along a Boden Barrett, like
the superstars of the game out of Super Rugby for
two years.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
But they already are out of Super Rugby for two years.
Addie Savia didn't play this and Super Rugby he's not
going to play for Mowana in twenty six off the
top of my head, so what's like, what's the is
it more confusing to have them out for a two
year block straight away? Or oh, Artie's playing Formana this year,
he's not playing next year and he's coming back in
twenty seven.

Speaker 5 (44:22):
How many of these are are you allowing?

Speaker 3 (44:25):
Oh? Well, I think you can put a cap on it.

Speaker 5 (44:27):
How many? How many? Give me a number?

Speaker 3 (44:29):
Five?

Speaker 4 (44:30):
Are you taking the five best players, five Super the
best players out of Super eight? Well they are Ritchie
Artie Severe World Player of the Year the year before.

Speaker 3 (44:40):
What's the TV two p y.

Speaker 4 (44:43):
You're struggling to put bums on seats in this competition
and you're taking the five best players out.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
Yeah, and Ardie Savie didn't play for the Hurricanes this year.
Jordi Barrett's not playing for the Hurricanes next year.

Speaker 5 (44:51):
That's fair. These are one so these are one year currently,
one year at a time.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
Yeah, but that makes no sense.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Like if you're looking, if you're a fan of Super Rugby, Oh,
is Jordi playing for Super for the Hurricanes this year?

Speaker 3 (45:02):
I know he's not.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
He's away this year, is already playing for the Hurricanes
Orana this year? I know this is his way yet
go out for two years and a block, you know,
what's happening. They're away in Japan, they come back for
two consecutive blocks.

Speaker 3 (45:12):
At the end of two consecutive seasons.

Speaker 4 (45:13):
You're doubling the time that they're out of the competition. Well, no,
they're already out for most of them, for one year
at a time. But is it be said to have
the Boden? Barratt's another example. He's been in and out
of the Blues environment ever since he signed. You're right,
it has happened and it goes back. Brodie Rittelic. You
know so many So what's more confused?

Speaker 2 (45:30):
Like what's better to actually generally know that a player
is going to do his time overseas then come back
for good, good inverted commas or do a year about
what's what's better for the comp I don't know that
the inconsistency is that good for super Rugby?

Speaker 4 (45:43):
Maybe not, but Leasa's best. The more excess super Abia
has to its best players, the better.

Speaker 2 (45:51):
Okay, would you allow super Abia to expand the borders
so you're allowed to select safe from Australia?

Speaker 4 (46:00):
I would allow it if Japan were in the competition,
because then you still have eyes on those players. You
still have them coming to play Eden Park in Hamilton
and in Dunedin.

Speaker 3 (46:10):
What's in it for Japan though, Well, nothing.

Speaker 4 (46:13):
And that's why they're not engaged with it yet. But
that's that's New Zealand Rugby's dream scenario. Because Japan pays
some of their best players wages, They're still in the competition,
they still have visibility. That's their dream scenario. Whether it
will happen as a completely another kettle of fish.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
We're talking about Japan joining Super Rugby, what about Super
Rugby joining League One.

Speaker 4 (46:39):
I think they'd be open to if they could make
it work. What's the difference really, it's just a branding exercise.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
Probably, but Japan, Japan with the power base that there,
that Super Rugby gets consumed by league.

Speaker 4 (46:50):
New Zealand Rugby's dream is to have the best maybe
three top league teams.

Speaker 5 (46:54):
But if you're Japan, what's in it for you?

Speaker 3 (46:58):
Really? Well, not a lot, not a lot. But he's
on for you.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
Joey marn who has a storming year for Toyota the
war tis go yep. We want to get him back
in the midfield. What don't get him playing with Sulei
reunite that Rooster's combination should he be eligible for the
All Blacks. Joey Martin, who plays the war at us
wildly off topic and hypotheticals here, but.

Speaker 4 (47:20):
I would say new Ze Raby would make that happen.
That'd been the rules, and I would not be shocked
to see. I haven't seen Joey Marnin who play yet,
but based on what Joseph sue Lee look Suey Lee
is not the finished article brilliant attack. He's been exposed
on defence, so he's got a lot to learn in
the game and he's going to do that through Super Rugby.

(47:42):
But we've seen it with Roger two of us as
sick and he was fast tracked because of who he was,
and I would not be surprised to see the All
Blacks do something similar with Joey Marno in the coming years.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
Final topic in the signal of the podcast before we
get into the final four wild Player of the Year awards.
World Rugby's Awards were dished out. What a week or
so ago, now, any surprises there for you?

Speaker 3 (48:07):
Liam? That raised the want to.

Speaker 4 (48:10):
Look Eban It's that was my player of the Year.
Peter steff De tweet was huge for the box at
the World Cup, but I thought Evan was a rung
above him and the French sevens coach winning Player of
the Year, I thought pretty tough on.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
RUSSI Well, for me, I don't think you can give
it to both because both him and Antoine, because I
don't have an issued necessarily with Anton departmenting seven's player
of the Year because you put him in that environment.
It elevated them to be Olympic champions. That's the impact
he had on that team. But then I don't think
he can give it to the coach necessarily at the
same time, because it wasn't like it was his coaching.

(48:45):
It was Anton de Pont's just incredible ability. They got
in that Olympic gode. But it came off the bench,
scored two tries. It wasn't as though I was the
coaching that got on there. So Russia Rasmas I think
can feel pretty hard done by in that regard. So too,
I think Corey Sweeney can back to back gold medals
in the Olympics for the New Zealand women's team doesn't
get a look in there. Somehow the French bloke gets it,

(49:07):
so they always come up with some weird and wonderful
things as will play it Rugby awards.

Speaker 4 (49:12):
At least Wallace one. That was a laydown massa for him.
Before we move on, we do have one other topic
for next year. We have jumped around here, but who's
in the firing line for twenty twenty five? Probably you
for putting an alarm on the just one of the
many contexts calling me.

Speaker 3 (49:29):
They're asking with that Rugby Rick Plocas is going to be.

Speaker 5 (49:31):
A who's in the firing line?

Speaker 4 (49:34):
Personally, I think Gats doesn't get fired because he's too expensive.
But old uncle Robin christ Church, can.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
We do get Rob to Rob to the valleys and
Gats to Warriorble to rugby parking?

Speaker 3 (49:49):
Christ Church to Wales? Want Rob?

Speaker 5 (49:51):
Does anyone want?

Speaker 3 (49:53):
Does anyone want Warren?

Speaker 4 (49:54):
It was a special to see Brad and war back
at the Crusaders and he could be a real succession
plan in the coming years.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Welcome home, by the way, Thank you. Look, I think
I think you're right about they can't afford to Wales.
Rugby is an absolute state at the moment, all those
issues around the women's team and everything going on there.
The men's team is a basketcase coach by Warren Gatland,
who's time out of international rugby should have been years ago.
So I can't see them getting rid of them becausey't

(50:27):
simply can't afford it. The Crusader's, on the other hand,
Thomasy Allison was their succession plan.

Speaker 3 (50:32):
He's now gone.

Speaker 2 (50:32):
Oh I'll have a job at the All Blacks, and
a permanent one at that because Leon McDonald's left. So
I think I think the Crusaders will be better next
year for a variety of reasons. But to me it
always felt like a two year deal for Robpinnion. That
was probably him done and dusted. So they're going to
have to look elsewhere. I'll be looking at Joe Schmitt.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
Come on down, Brad Moore, closer to.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
Home, Joe Schmitt. Wallaby's Well, we'll get into this in
a moment or two. But if I'm the Crusaders, I'm
going to Joe Schmitt AND's going come home, come home
to New Zealand.

Speaker 3 (51:06):
He mean he lives in New Zealand.

Speaker 5 (51:07):
Anyway, great option. Anyway, I'd snap up Joe Schmitt.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
So come on Men's Bridge, if you're listening, get on
the bar. We'll take a break, come back with more
after this on Rugby Director.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fares.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
Every try, try ten sixty sec, every tackle, don't pack
the tackle?

Speaker 3 (51:28):
Get up again? Will I take him before our times?

Speaker 5 (51:32):
It's Rugby Direct.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Welcome back into Rugby Direct time Now for the final
four four rugby topics, Liam and I would debate them. Liam,
will Joe Schmitt stay at the Wallabies beyond the end
of the line series.

Speaker 5 (51:49):
If they beat the Lions? He will? And if they don't,
he won't.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
You can you take that long to decide about it?
I reckon I'll have to decide in the summertime, like
in the coming weeks, because the Australian rugby's, you know,
off the whole of the back of the lines to it.
They're gonna have to go straight into a rugby Championship
with someone in place, whether it's Joe Schmitt, whether it's
Stephen Kham, Dan McKellar, Michael Checker was going.

Speaker 5 (52:12):
To ask you, well, Penny, what's the succession plan for Penny? Good?
Good gags, good gags?

Speaker 2 (52:19):
They don't Well, I suppose they've got a group of
Australian coaches now back in McKellar and.

Speaker 3 (52:24):
Marke Kellen is a great option after one year at
the Warrior Tis.

Speaker 2 (52:27):
I suppose whether they be ready, but I suppose you've
got to take these opportunities when they come. Look, I
know that Australian Rugby will be desperate to keep Joe
Schmidty'll throw as much money as they possibly can at
him to keep him there. With that's going to be
enough is the question for him because.

Speaker 3 (52:43):
He's got so many.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
He's got issues obviously back at home around his family
and things like that, so it needs to be in
New Zealand where they can accommodate that. Still, whether he's
comfortable doing that for you know, it's very well doing
it for eighteen months, but doing it for another two
and a half years leading into a World Cup is
another question entirely. But you look at the impact he's
made on that team. They need to throw the money
they need to convince him to stay.

Speaker 4 (53:06):
Well, yeah, you're right they they would love to keep him,
But I think Joe went into that with a two
year rebuild. You know, hit job, get and get out,
do what he can. But he's also a guy that's
once he's in and he's got his feet under the desk.

(53:26):
He's very controlling, very passionate. It will be hard for
him to walk away, So I think on the balance
of what you're saying, you know, with his family and everything,
he probably will leave. But if that does come to pass,
I think you'll find it very hard.

Speaker 2 (53:43):
Christy Dorian from the Raw friend of the Pods and
obviously with the USPN scrumpop with them earlier in the year,
suggesting I spoke to him on new stooks he'd been
the weekend, suggesting that probably unlikely, more unlikely than not
he will re sign. Sorry, more unlikely than likely that
he will stay at Rugby Australia. You know, maybe comes
back from his end OFAR tour, looks at the progress
and goes stick around for another couple of years.

Speaker 5 (54:06):
Wild card Leel McDonald to the war. It would be
a wild card.

Speaker 4 (54:10):
There were a few whispers they've gone a wee bit quiet,
but I would not rule it out.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
Watch the Space topic number two Sevy Reese news coming
before we record this podcast, or a day before we
record this podcast that he was discharged with that conviction
on the basis of some unruly behavior of the night
after Cup day in christ Juts in twenty twenty three.
So what was that three weeks after the World Cup final?

(54:38):
What are his All Blacks prospects heading into next year
and would you stick with him, you know, on the
basis of this latest indiscretion.

Speaker 4 (54:47):
I think this latest indiscretion in the context of sev
Reese's career is relatively minor. But and look, everyone makes
mistakes in life. I'm in glasshouse. You know, everyone deserves
second chances. But it's when you start making repeat mistakes
that you become a lib liddy. In an employer context,

(55:10):
Sevhu's re signed for two years. I think it was
around I'm not sure if it was around the time
of this incident or just after. So he becomes high
risk for New Zealand Rugby and added the time at
a time when has placed in the All Blacks is
under question. So as his stocks are seemingly declining and

(55:33):
you've got these off field incidents, you start to question
these things, don't you. Lucky, by all accounts, has made
some positive change since this incident, given up alcohol, made
some which has had a big impact on him. But
it's the fact that he has now been discharged twice
that people get their back up about.

Speaker 5 (55:54):
It's it's the.

Speaker 4 (55:55):
Preferential the perception of the preference, preferential treatment given to
an all black over an ordinary citizen. And it's the
twenty eight it's the twenty eighteen incident, in particular, the
incident involving his former partner. That one really greats people
because if you and I do that, by all accounts,

(56:18):
we're convicted.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
Well do we know that? Though? Do we know that?
Because I know for sure?

Speaker 5 (56:21):
No.

Speaker 2 (56:22):
I think everyone's got this idea that if you're an
all black you get preferential treatment. But the thing is
that's because it's reporter on and it's publicized. If you
were a plumber or an electrician or an accountant, do
you get the same treatment? Who knows, But they're not publicized,
they're not reporter on. So maybe you do get the
same treatment.

Speaker 4 (56:38):
Where it does help your case as you have high
profile endorsements from coaches and whatnot, and it does genuinely
jeopardize your career and that you can't enter some countries
with a conviction.

Speaker 5 (56:52):
You can't.

Speaker 4 (56:53):
He had a contracts in France and Ireland fall through
despite not but despite getting discharged. They didn't want him
because of that. Yeah, so that was a moral decision
for Conic at the time. So that's where it does
benefits or Blacks or sportsmen that do have to travel.

(57:13):
Judges take into consideration the impact on their careers. So
that's where it does differentiate from a plumber or whoever.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
Yeah, but then you go, does it outweigh the does
the charge or the outweigh the consequences? And that's I
suppose the only thing around it is if you're a
whole profile, then it does you know, a minor and
inverted commas and discretion could outweigh could you know, the
close coinses could outwigh what was actually what actually happened,

(57:40):
And that would not necessarily apply to Joe blogs walking
down the street.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
I's not forget as well.

Speaker 4 (57:44):
Sorry, I was just gonna say, I think it's the
repeat offending and what seven has to do now he's
made positive, James has to stay squeaky clean.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
Let's not forget as well. Sibery said, probably one of
his best super rugby seasons this year. Didn't have a
great all Black season and poor game against France, but
he was with her was because it was weighing on
him and in the background and thinking he had to
sort of outperform or whatever it was. But he was
actually very good in super Uguba this year, by far
away the crusaders best player. So it wasn't as though

(58:10):
he wasn't hard. It's fair, but he was good. Rugby
was so like it's not as though he's.

Speaker 5 (58:17):
And performed well against England initially but then tailed off.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
That's right right into our board in a state of flux,
expecting some news on that front in our Rugby direct
off season. I guess Liam, there's some names being bandied about.
What are you hearing and who would you like to
see on the border. Is there a dream appointments beyond
one of us two that you'd like.

Speaker 3 (58:40):
To sell the board?

Speaker 5 (58:41):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (58:42):
My application didn't make it past his first reading, so
tough to say.

Speaker 3 (58:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (58:46):
I thought I had some friends.

Speaker 3 (58:47):
But Christmas re cardless.

Speaker 4 (58:51):
It's going to be a very interesting nine person board.
A how many of the existing board members come back
and there has been a lot of whispers about people applying.
Greg Barclay was one. I did a story about having
the former ICC chairman, not sure if he he necessarily
ticks enough boxes because there's very stringent criteria about having

(59:13):
served on a provincial you know board or in governance
and stipulations around diversity, whether it's Maldi, Pacifica or gender.
So it is a hard board to appoints on merit.
There's other names, Yeah, there's other names. David Kirk, former

(59:38):
World Cup winning captain minusnez he might have pulled out,
but was in the mix. Taine Randall was another who applied,
and there's a few whispers about former police boss Andrew
Costa Soles Costa and Nathan Guy was another one. Former
national MP. So a real cross section of New Zealand society,

(59:59):
so interesting to see how that shakes down. And of
course COMCO, the separate board responsible for all of New
Zealand rugby's revenue. They need a new boss with Craig
Fenton exiting as well, so some big appointments in the works.

Speaker 5 (01:00:14):
Venezella Rugby.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
Yeah, watched the space over summer and finally Liam balance
of power where does it lie twelve months or thereabouts
on from the Rugby World Cup in the North or
in the South.

Speaker 4 (01:00:26):
No offence citting here, Earliott. It's marginally in the South.
The spring Boks and World champions and the other the
best team in the world by a long way. Argentina
were the big movers this year. Slightly disappointing India tour
for them that they did push Islands, but they were
They were underwhelming against France and I think the All
Blacks have a lot of improvement left in them. The

(01:00:46):
Wallabies were up and down, but on the rise. I
think Islands are declining. England's are in a bit of
a state of flux. They lost Felix Jones and their
coaching team. Big out for them. France very good at home.
Question marks about them traveling because they just send second
string teams away in July. So I think the South

(01:01:09):
edge is it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
I do think it's South comfortably, to be honest, South
Africa tick number one in the world by some way.
Australia on the rise, the All Blacks begin of year tour.
As we've discussed England down, Ireland stagnated, Scotland up, France up.
Wales's basically a Tier two nation so and then you go.

(01:01:34):
Brett Robinson is also the world rugby cheer. So it's
been a great last couple of months of the South. Yeah,
bring it home, bring it home. Well, speaking of the South.
That is time for summer in the Southern Hemisphere and
time for summer for Rugby Direct. Our final podcast of
the year, Liam, it's been a pleasure as always. I
think we've moted through about forty plus episodes this year.

(01:01:54):
Some highlights from the year. Really enjoyed our chat with
Aaron Smith. If you're at a loss over summer and
haven't listened to that one high they recommend going back
and listening to that podcast of Aaron Smith roughly middle
of the year. I think we spoke to him, enjoyed
that one. It's been another year for Rugby Direct.

Speaker 4 (01:02:09):
Has indeed, it's been good times, good debates, and next
year I think we're looking at getting maybe an email or.

Speaker 3 (01:02:17):
You're moving into the twenty fifth century, we're going to
get an email.

Speaker 4 (01:02:20):
Something for you to come at us, give us some feedback,
you know, get aggressive, whatever whatever that may be.

Speaker 5 (01:02:28):
Thanks for listening. We appreciate all the feedback.

Speaker 4 (01:02:31):
And Elliott's informed me he has got his beginning line
trim for summer, so I'll try and supply a photo
to keep you entertained before our next pod.

Speaker 3 (01:02:41):
Trimmed and ready to go. What's it? Backsack and crack.
That's good to god.

Speaker 5 (01:02:46):
You beautiful momentary.

Speaker 3 (01:02:48):
We'll leave you with that average over summer. Thank you
very much.

Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
We look forward to your company again in February. Big
thanks as well to our producer Last and Bars English.
We're producing this podcast right from February through to December.

Speaker 3 (01:02:58):
We will see you again next year.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
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