Rugby Direct - Episode 149

This week on Rugby Direct, Elliott Smith and Liam Napier are back in the studio for 2025 and not a moment too soon as we reflect on the major rugby issues over the summer break including Joe Schmidt's confirmed impending departure as Wallabies coach, Richie Mo'unga not returning to New Zealand Rugby as early as hoped, the Six Nations in full swing and the TJ Perenara haka developments.

We also preview the Super Rugby season, the likely contenders for the title and the big improvers ahead of Friday night's season start, as well as speak to competition CEO Jack Mesley. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News talks it be
Follow this and our Wide Ranger podcast now on iHeartRadio,
Inside the Game from Every Angle. It's Rugby Direct with
Elliott Smith powered by news talks it B.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome back to Rugby Directs powered by Habit Health, tackling
all your aches and pains from sports and work. It
has been I think about two and a half months,
but your favorite podcast is back in the feed. Elliott
Smith and Liam Napier Cross News Talks, ABB and New Zealand.
Here all back for twenty twenty five on Rugby Direct.

(00:45):
Liam decent summer.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
Was it has been Elliott, Great to see you mate,
Welcome back. Yeah, I had a good summer, lots of
sun and surfing, family and friends. So good to be back.
And Rugby's Rugby's here. Isn't it a one week earlier
than their previous years? And cricket season can take a hike.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Cricket season is year round now that's the you know,
everyone talked about rugby and croaching on cricket season. Cricket
season just goes twelve months a year. At least rugby
you get a little bit of a break. We've missed
a fair bit, haven't we over the last two and
a half months while we've been on sabbatical, getting the
overseas wages in Japan and various things into the main account.

Speaker 4 (01:25):
Yeah, thanks to Sheba. Appreciate, appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, they're gonna come on board as a sponsor. Let's
go through a few of those topics now in a
bit of what we've missed segment to kick things off.
First and foremost news late last week Joe Schmidt out
as Wallaby's coach after the Rugby Championship. Interesting that this
was dressed up by Rugby Australia as a slight contract extension.
He was supposed to end or his contract ended after

(01:49):
the Lions series. Now signed on for the Rugby Championship,
but he is going to leave after that. I guess
your reaction and what this means now for Rugby Australia
and the Wallabies.

Speaker 3 (01:59):
Not a great surprise, I think when you know the
circumstances around Joe Schmitt and his family, his son and
his health challenges. He wants to be close to home
and prioritize his family. His intention was only ever going
to be to take the Wallabies through to the Lions

(02:21):
and I think we've already seen quite drastic improvements since
he's taken over. It's easy to forget the absolutely disastrous
Eddie Jones era that that he came on on board
after look, Rugby Australia would have desperately wanted him to
stay because of those improvements. Because of you only have
to hear people like Joseph Suey Lee talk about Joe

(02:45):
Schmitt and you know sue Lee has come from a
rugby league background and speaks so highly of Joe. So
I think all the players involved with Echo that we
heard that with the All Blacks, Joe Schmitt's level of detail,
his analysis, his feedback for players, as.

Speaker 4 (03:02):
You know, second to none.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
So Australia in an ideal will would have retained him.

Speaker 4 (03:08):
He will be a massive loss.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
It is good he's staying on post Arabia Championship and
it's still a big task between now and the Lions series.
I guess what do you view the Wallabies prospects as
it stands for that line series? It will come round fast.
It's only in July. And can the Wallabies replace Josemitt?

Speaker 2 (03:28):
Well, I think it for the Wallabies they can do
something in this British and Irish line series because I
don't think that the lines are infallible. I think the
Australia is certainly capable of taking at least a Test
off them. Where they can get to is another matter entirely,
but I think this Australian team is capable of getting

(03:49):
at least one match, and you look at the lines
in their recent history, it takes a while for them
to come in. The Test team tends to play it's
one of those big tour matches at least, and then
into a Test match. Off the back of it, Australia's
got Fiji first and foremost, they'll get some cohesion there.
A lot of the combinations will have been playing Super
rugby as well, so I think off the back of

(04:11):
what they did on the end of year tour, Australia
can head into that series with a little bit of confidence.
You've still got it as outsiders, but I think they're
certainly capable of shaking things up and maybe taking a
Test off the lines. Would be great if it was
one all heading into the third and final Test, and
I would put some pressure on there. And I think
now that the future of joshmud has been decided, there'll

(04:32):
be a bit more clarity in camp. It won't just
be the unknown that's hanging over them. By then they'll
know who's coming in as the head coach for the
End of View Tour and beyond through the World Cup,
so there'll be a bit more continuity and that person
you would expect would probably come in for the line
series and perhaps we have a watching brief over them.
So I think Australia, on the basis of what we

(04:54):
saw in the last year's End of View Tour, can
take a little bit of confidence out of that. As
for the replacements for Joe Shmidt, I think you look
at the obvious ones, Dan mccallor from the waratahs Le's
Kiss from the Reeds seems likely. Stephen Larkham. You know,
maybe there's other contenders around the globe, perhaps someone like
a Vencotta, maybe from the Blues as contracted through to

(05:16):
twenty six.

Speaker 4 (05:17):
Ronan o'garaz has put his hand up.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:20):
I think Leo McDonald as a potential wildcard as well.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah, so, I mean I guess they're our contenders there.
It's just a matter for Rugby Australia to figure out
where they want to go to and they'll have to
be careful about it because they've improved under Joe Schmidt.
They won't want to go backwards to the dark days
of Eddie Jones in twenty twenty three. So that's going
to be fascinating to see what kind of coach they
land on, where the jo Schmitt will stay on in

(05:45):
an advisory role, which he sounds like he's open to
according to some of the reporting from our colleagues across
the Tasman So it's going to be interesting. Dan mchaal
has certainly been earmarked as a coach of the future,
but maybe Liz Kiss just has his ear and it
knows in front because he has worked with josemt before
itd Island.

Speaker 3 (06:01):
Yeah, the mumblings of heard is highly likely to be
an Australian coach and Australians love their own. While Eddie
Jones was a disaster, You've had a period of foreign
coaches and I think ideally you would have one of
your own, and yeah, I think from the outside looking
in for me, it does appear to be a two

(06:23):
horse race between mccullor and Liz Kiss, and I'll be
very impressed by what les Kiss has done coming back.
He has a not a strong established relationship with Joe,
but they have worked together in some capacity previously, so
that would work and goes to what you're saying before
about Joe potentially staying on in an over arching role

(06:46):
or an advisory role, whatever that may be. And he
did that with the Blues with Leam McDonald and that
worked brilliantly, didn't it. So I think the Wallabies will
be desperate to retain him in that capacity, but I
will be surprised if it's not an Australian coach that
does succeed him.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
The tricky thing about I mean, it sounds great on
paper Jotion staying on in an advisory rob, but that
can quickly become too many cooks in the kitchen. Obviously
he's going to be based on this side of the Tasman.
It's going to be matter for whoever the head coach
is to decide whether that's something they want, whether they
want that extra word. We sort of work well with
the All Blacks and then Jo Schmitt became came on
board full time in that coaching stuff. So it's going

(07:24):
to be interesting to see how that unfolds. If you're
Joe Schmidt, obviously back in New Zealand, do you want
to be still semi coaching Australia from Afar? Do you
want to stick your ow into something on this side
of the Tasman? Should New Zealand Rugby make an approach
to him to get him involved in some way, whether
it's not the All Blacks but an overarching role perhaps
in rugby. You know, the Crusaders for example, could use

(07:47):
them next year. Their succession plan has been blown out
of the waters. So yeah, if you're Joschmidt, what do
you look to do here? Because obviously being on the
side of the Tasman, being close to family is very
important to him.

Speaker 3 (07:58):
I think, like you say, it does depend on who
the next Wallaby's coach is. But look, he'll keep his
options open and there'll be no shortage of suitors for
his services, whether that be on the international market or domestically.
And yeah, he is with the Blues previously, but they're
in a good space here. Has a tight relationship with
Vern Cotter as well. But at the moment certainly the

(08:21):
Blues don't need them, do they. They're going for back
to back titles and I've got a very very strong
coaching team. So yeah, very interesting to see where Joe
goes next. But I think one thing is certain and
that he will continue coaching in some capacity because he
is extremely passionate and when he does get involved, he

(08:42):
tends to be all in.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
Indeed, let's move on watch the space on that topic.
Another big one from the summer, Richie Wong doesn't come home,
won't be available for the All Blacks. As perhaps predicted
in twenty twenty five, there was almost an expectation that
he was going to be back in New Zealand rugby
at some point this year. It got to that point
that it was seemed fairly obvious or fairly certain that

(09:06):
he was going to be released year early by Toshiba.
There was going to be some working around of his
contract with them. He'd come back and be eligible for
the All Blacks from twenty twenty five and play for
the Crusaders twenty six and twenty seven. That didn't happen.
So I guess if your reaction to that, because as
we sat here last year it seemed like that it

(09:28):
was heading to that conclusion.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
Yeah, very surprised, I think I said. At one point
I put my house on it that he was coming home.
So I'm homeless as of this year. If anyone wants
to take me in they would would be very eternally grateful.
But look, it was all smoke signals. Everything pointed towards
that happening. Scott Robertson and Mark Robertson went up to

(09:50):
Japan to try and.

Speaker 4 (09:52):
Get that over.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
The line. For me had to be financial. That's the
only reason why they couldn't get over the line. Richie's
earning close to over then two million dollars a year
in Japan, so clearly he's on rugby weren't in a
position willing to bridge that gap. Maybe that he would

(10:15):
have been offered close to a million to come home.
So it's a significant shortfall, wasn't it. But it is
only one year and a Ritchie really wanted that number
ten Jersey, if he really wanted to work with Razor,
then he had to make that sacrifice that other New
Zealand rugby players who are playing in New Zealand do

(10:36):
make from a financial sense. But it does change the landscape,
doesn't it. Because if you look back to the end
of last year and we thought Muhoger was coming home
in July. He's always been raisers.

Speaker 4 (10:48):
Man.

Speaker 3 (10:49):
Now you're looking more longer term, aren't you. With McKenzie
and Barrett going head to heads. Even guys like Stephen
Peterfetter may have been looking leaving. Harry Plummer when he
decided to go following the Super Rugby season. I spoke
to him and he said that Muhoger coming home was
a fact in his decision because he was that much

(11:11):
further down the pecking order. So I think everyone, including
you know, Harry Plummer and and these sort of guys,
expected him to come home, so it is a major
surprise that he's not.

Speaker 2 (11:21):
So is this a matter of New Zealand Rugby and
Tshiba not being able to meet the asking price orr
New Zealand Raby? I will be able to meet Sheba's
asking price to release him from.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
His contract or Ritchie's desired salary.

Speaker 4 (11:34):
I think yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
There was all sorts of talk about maybe brokering a
deal with to Sheba where he would come back for
two years until the Ragby will cup and then maybe
go back to to Sheba, but that hasn't worked out.

Speaker 4 (11:49):
And the other part about that equation is.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
Richie will now have what's basically a year of Test
rugby to get up to speed to try and stake
his claim for that number ten Jersey. And while he
has that relationship with Razor, we've seen consistently how hard
it is to come back. No matter what anyone says,
who's on the payroll in Japan, it's infinitely harder to

(12:14):
come back from Japan and walk straight into Test rugby
than it is to go from Super rugby to Test rugby.
It is a rung down and so he would have
been there for two and a half years, and I'm
not denying he's still a world class player, but it
does take time to get up to speed, to get
used to the pace and intensity and line speed, pressure,

(12:36):
all those different elements that Test rugby brings. So it's
going to be much harder for him to waltz back
into their all Black team. And for Razor, having invested
in Damian McKenzie and Boden Barra and others, it's a
very going to be a very very difficult, delicate balancing
act for him.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
It is because those players, whichever way they split it,
McKenzie and Barrett will both get tests at ten this year.
Whoever becomes the first choice. It was barred at the
end of last year, but both of them will get
game time at teen this year. It's another year under
their belts, it's another year playing under Scott Robinson's game
plan as All Blacks coach. And then Richiemong is going
to have to come and cold, assuming it even comes

(13:16):
back next year, and that's the other thing he hasn't signed.
He may go to Sven, might put some more money
on the table and go, here's another few million for
another three year deal. You might go, actually, I don't
need to come back, So we're you know, we thought
he would come back. Then he may not come back
at all.

Speaker 3 (13:31):
We've seen that with guys like Charles Piedsows Stephen Latour.
Once you move abroad, the longer you're there, the more
comfortable you become. You're earning exceptional money, your family's settled,
so there's lots of different factors to consider. And you
know who knows he could play for Tonga. Yeah, that

(13:52):
possibility is not off the table either. So you're right,
there's no guarantees he does come home. Now, you'd suspect
Razer will still be in his heir, He'll still want
them back, but who knows.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
James O'Connor, you know, might block his path of the Crusaders,
he might have to go elsewhere.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
Well, look, Riley Warhap has seen the light and gone
to the Canes, so there's hope for him yet.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
The king pen of your fantasy team, I believe. Also
Sean Stephenson. This is a bubbled way with summer as well.
He's gone to Japan for a few weeks, to Kibota,
back for about round four in Super Rugby. Sounds like
you'll be going full time as of twenty twenty six,
So sort of a short term solution to a longer

(14:34):
problem for the Chiefs and Shawan Stevenson and New Zealand
Rugby and Caboda. Look, he's been there or there about
Shawan Stevenson. You can hardly blame him for taking it.
But there's been whispers he's going to the NRL, he's
going off sure of various things. Finally does go off, sure,
and it's only for a short term deal for now.

Speaker 3 (14:51):
Yeah. Look, he's painted his colors to the wall and
like you say, you can't blame him. He has been
knocking on the door for several years and the thing
with Sean and I think most people are aware who
have followed his career or followed rugby, there's always been
concerns about him defensively and his ability in contact. He
is an exceptionally gifted athlete. He can kick, he's very

(15:16):
silky with his schools. He can create for others, he
can finish. He can do a lot of things. But
on the defensive side of the ball he has been
exposed at times and we saw that even in his
Test debut. I think it was against the Wallabies in Dunedin,
and several All Blacks coaches have held reservations. You know

(15:36):
that happened with Ian Foster regime and now with Scott Robertson.
He was in the All Blacks fifteen but never really
elevated beyond that. So New Zealand Ragby were clearly reluctant,
unwilling to let him walk out of his contract with
the Chiefs.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
So they when the name of the squad's, you know,
it's different to perhaps if he come to them in
September of last year he might have been the chance
of getting a release.

Speaker 3 (16:03):
So they've broken a deal where he goes he comes
back for the Super season and then he'll go back
to Japan and you know what, He's served the Chiefs
really well. He's been a multi All Black. You wish
him well and by all means mate Bank, because your
career is infinite. But unfortunately he is in one of,
if not the most congested areas.

Speaker 4 (16:24):
Traditionally in the New Zealand game.

Speaker 3 (16:26):
You know, New Zealand traditionally produces wings every single season,
fullbacks the same. It's very hard to get a look
in there, and if you've got slight deficiencies in your game,
then that can hurt you.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
Indeed, let's move on to some other news that happened
over summer. I think we touched on it at the
end of last year. TJ Penina and the All Blacks
hocker in Churin. It's now emerged, according to reporting in
the New Zealand Herald, that took members of the All
Blacks by surprise, the message that TJ Peninara sceend. Obviously,

(17:01):
TJ is now playing in Japan full time. But you
look at that story and go just doesn't feel right though. Yes,
the whole way it's sort of played out from both
a media perspective and also an All Black perspective. Does it
your take on this.

Speaker 4 (17:18):
Ye, it wasn't surprised that there were divisions.

Speaker 3 (17:20):
I think if you go back to the Hurricanes poa Hucker,
I don't think in any if you got thirty if
you walk down the street and got thirty people together,
they're not going to share the same political views. And
that extends to sport, and so it's very hard for
someone to take soul authority of that and say we're

(17:43):
all on the same page, we're sending this message. Personally,
I support the message, but that doesn't mean that all
the Barrett brothers do or Damian McKenzie does. And if
you think back to the photos that were posted postmatch,
it was very clear that some people were on board
with that and some people weren't.

Speaker 4 (18:01):
And so that's that's come to.

Speaker 3 (18:02):
Lights and I think it could have been handled better.
But the only way you probably could have avoided it
was leaving TJ Pedinara out of that test and his
final test for the All Blacks. That would have been
a massive call, but it was a big issue. It
sparked a lot of division and I think if TJ

(18:23):
went back again, he would probably do it again because
he's very passionate about that issue, but people will have
a lot of differing, varying views on whether he was
right to do that.

Speaker 4 (18:33):
How do you see that?

Speaker 2 (18:34):
I think you're exactly right. And now on the head.
When you gather thirty odd people into a room or
a team or whatever it is, they're not going to
share the same beliefs. And when you do something like
a hucker, Yes, TJ was the leader of the hacker,
and he's the public face of the hucker and has
been of this particular hucker, but it's seen as an

(18:54):
All Blacks hucker. You're representing your teammates, the other twenty
two players that are standing alongside you delivering the hucker,
regardless of whether it's your message at the front. And
it was explained to me that, yes, TJ's done the
message itself. That's his here, that's his message at the
top of the hacker, and the rest is the team hucker.
But it doesn't always come across that way. And when
it seems like it's gone under the radar a little

(19:17):
bit and hasn't been presented as to the true nature
of the message that the All Blacks were expecting because
it was sold as a unity and then the message
about whit's sung. I think the all Blacks players do
have a right perhaps to be a little bit upset
if that was the message, because you're standing there, there's
twenty two people, twenty three people as essentially co signing

(19:37):
this message, and if you don't agree with it, regardless
of your political beliefs, I think that you've been misrepresented.
So I can completely understand why it has caused some consternation.
And you know, maybe TJ could have done this and
put this messagecross in a different way. It wouldn't it have
been as high profile as doing it in a hucker
in this final Test match. There are other avenues, and

(20:00):
I guess maybe you saw this way as the biggest
way to create some waves, some interest, because certainly it
managed to do that.

Speaker 3 (20:06):
Yeah, the only other I guess I'd just draw another
analogy in that if if we're going to go down
this line, then keep all politicians away from sport, you know,
because everyone's not going to want the acting Prime minister
in the changing rooms getting smamy and imposing for political clout.

(20:27):
So that anytime there's a political issue, it's it's highly charged.
So personally, I'd like to see them keep keep keep distanced.
Politicians often use sports to leverage their their profile and
those sorts of things, and that makes me square them
a lot, So that that sort of thing makes makes

(20:50):
me feel uncomfortable, but it's very common in the modern worlds.
And looking back at this instant, there were telltale signs,
weren't there. The All Blacks on social media didn't share
t J Perrena's message. That actually cut that out of
their of their of their vision on social media. So
it was clear at the time, even with those who
posted in the photos and those who didn't, that maybe

(21:12):
everyone wasn't on the same page. So yeah, I think
if Scott Robinson and the All Blacks had their time again,
maybe they'll do it differently. But it is a very
delicate situation to handle indeed.

Speaker 2 (21:23):
So let's move on to some rugby. The Six Nations
underway two rounds down a fellow week this week, so
we break in the Six Nations, but you'll read on
what we've seen so far. Liam the cream has risen
to the top a little bit, but some surprises along
the way, England beating France and a cracking game at
Twickenham over the weekend so I thought it was excellent.

(21:44):
Island's been very good the opening couple of weeks whiles
have been shit house you'll read on the first couple
of weeks.

Speaker 3 (21:52):
Yeah, I guess apart from Ireland, it's a very even tournament,
isn't it. And I would argue maybe not of a
gold standard. I think that England France tests very dramatic, captivating,
but not necessarily of the highest quality. I think we're
seeing that France to a degree have an element of

(22:12):
being home track bullies. They're not as good away from
home and you could see that in DuPont's performance. Maybe
they don't have the same level of care or passion
and maybe there's a bit of resentment from my side
about the team, the second string team they're going to
send out here in July, and just their attitude I
think to playing away from home, something that if they

(22:32):
want to be considered the world's best rugby nation, they
need to address. Ireland hold the mantle. They did a
number on Scotland. I think that was a very convincing
performance away from home Atale continue to improve And the
point I'd make about Wales is from my side, at
least there's no glee in their struggles. Fourteen losses in

(22:54):
a row. They're at their lowest EBB. This is a
very passionate historic rugby nation and they are on their
knees and it's very sad to see.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
It is sad to see.

Speaker 4 (23:08):
I can't see them turning it around here.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
No, that's the thing that's not like a different coach
is going to absently be able to waiver wand because
they thought that Warren Gatton was going to do. And
when you look at Wayne Pivock's results when he got
sent packing, they actually compare not too bad. The fact
is that they've had this generation for quite some time
that were very very good and could contend with the

(23:32):
wilds Besus, Wynne Jones, Warburton retired a bit longer than
the other's Dan Lydiott, Fellatad's still going number of couple of
good tens, bigger and all these players that were very
very good, seems like those coming into a place and
just haven't got the same quality. And whether that's down
to a provincial level in Wales not providing the talent

(23:54):
the pathways through, I think there's some issues there. Without
knowing the intricacies too much of the Welsh domestic game,
but that certainly seems to be reading some of the
articles where some of the issues lie. There are some
promising players there, you know, Aaron Wayne Wright's a good
player of mine. A couple of others Jack Morgan are
very very good. But if you're far between, they don't
look like world beaters. And it's not like a coach

(24:16):
is not getting the message through. I just don't think
the players, whether it's Warren Gatland to whoever, is going
to be able to turn the ship around anytime soon.

Speaker 3 (24:23):
Yeah, the systematic issues and wells and the domestic game,
and that the financial state of the game, which is
prevalent throughout the international rugby worlds. I know we're going
to touch on Warren lately but later, but I do
think it was a massive mistake to bring him back.
You're looking at a previous generation, like you say, in

(24:44):
terms of the players, you're looking at him with rose
into glasses. There were clear signs that rugby had pat
moved on. He struggled when he came back to New Zealand,
and it was seen as a very easy, quick fit solution.
You hide someone on reputation alone, and that's really blowing
up in their face now.

Speaker 2 (25:03):
It certainly is and it's hard to see where the
next one comes from. I don't see them getting another
winning the Six Nations barring a massive upset. Maybe you know,
they play Ireland and someone gets red carded full red card,
you know, something like that, they play fifteen on fourteen,
maybe they can get a win that way. But you're
looking for things like that because they just do not
have the quality to match any of the other teams
in the Six Nations. They were, to be honest, well

(25:25):
beaten by Adelie. It was only the late couple of
schools that got them even close to the Italians that
are well beaten. Their attacking structure is poor. That's where
I think Warren Gatland does have some issues because their
structure on the park is poor. Attacking selection and attack yeah,
as it just looks labored, there's nothing much to it.
And again Warren ball, the game's moved on from that

(25:48):
and that's where I think maybe new coach can ad something,
but they're not going to turn things around overnight.

Speaker 3 (25:53):
And the tough thing now is it's seen as a
poison chalice. If you heard Rodan O'Gara talk, he was like,
no thanks, and that would be the attitude of a
number of quality and coaches around the world. You are
staking the reputation and you've got an expectant rugby public

(26:15):
to come in and turn things around immediately.

Speaker 4 (26:17):
So it's not a desired position. So where do you
turn to?

Speaker 2 (26:22):
Very good question. We will take a break here on
Rugby Direct. Comeback with our Super Rugby preview the Final four.
Jack Measley here the Super Rugby CEO to join us
as well as Rugby Direct continues with Habit Health.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fares.

Speaker 2 (26:42):
Every try try ten sixty second, every tackle, put back
the tackles, get up again. Take you before I'm not
It's Rugby Direct. You're back with Rugby Direct powered by
Habit Health. Let's get stuck into a bit of a
Super Rugby preview. We are days out from the opening
game of the season Crusaders and Hurricanes February fourteen. It

(27:04):
all gets underway. You can hear all the New Zealand
franchise games on Gold Sport and iHeartRadio. Ligam Super Regular
rolls around again. I guess there's always a bit of
intrigue at the start of the season with some offseason
signings and everything like that. But to me, as is customary,
I suppose the defending champions go in his favorites. You
look at the Blues, they'll be hard to beat again

(27:25):
and hard to go past the scheme of things.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
Yeah, Look, I think this season does hold more intrigue
than others because we've had the demise of the Rebels
and I think that will change the landscape in Australia.
You've seen the Wara Tars in particular pickup of a
host of former Melbourne players Rob Leota and they've got
Sue Lee and a number of others. I think Taniela

(27:50):
Tupo Yep and Dan mccallor is a big in for
them as coach side. Expect the war Tars to improve
and the competitiveness across the world maybe with the exception
of the Force to lift in Australia, I expect more
Ona Pacifica to be better. With Ardie Severe probably the
biggest transfer in Super rigby history. They've got a better

(28:12):
coaching team, they've got a stable base. But the wider
New Zealand landscape does look to be the Blues title
to lose. They've got a pretty stable squad, stable coaching team,
Van Cotter's back, and then you had two time Player
of the Year Boden Barrett and the mix Man. They
are stacked from a playmaking perspective, Harry Plummer, Stephen Peter Fetter,

(28:36):
Boden Barrett's You've got Zen Sullivan there as well. You
look at at the back line, Ricoewanni, Caleb Clark, Mark.

Speaker 4 (28:44):
Talah, a j Lamb.

Speaker 3 (28:47):
But it was the four pack that did it for
the Blues last year, you know, so it is hard
to go past the Blues. I think Wallace a TC
is a massive loss for the Chiefs. They were well
beaten and last year's final, but were had a late
season run. The Canes were a surprise package last year
top the table. Nobody saw that coming with no Adie
Severe and a new coach and Clark laid Law.

Speaker 4 (29:10):
Can they back it up?

Speaker 3 (29:11):
And the Crusaders they were an absolute calamity. Surely they
can't be that bad again. They've got will Jordan back,
Cody Taylor will be back, Scott Barrett should play a
lot more to Mighty Williams. I think I went through
They've got something like thirteen all blacks in that team,
so there's really no excuses for them not to be better.

(29:32):
What's your broad expectations.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Oh, look, I think it is hard to go past
the Blues again because, as you say, you add in
Bowden Barrett. The question is how they juggle all of
that and how they keep everyone happy with the amount
of game time. Who plays Where does Boden Barrett play ten?
Do you move them to fifteen? Harry Plumber, Steven Peter Fetter?
How do you balance all of that? Because yet it's

(29:55):
all very well having great depth, and that's what the
best sides in super rugby are being built on. You
look at the Crusaders and that dynasty they formed in
other teams, the Chiefs and the twenty tens as well
built it on depth. But you've also got to have
the players in the right positions on the park and
those key starting positions to get things right, and that
can be an issue where things fall down if players
are expecting more game time than they actually get. So

(30:17):
I think the Blues head in his favorites are really
like look at them, They've lost a key to Jouannie,
but they do have players like Anton Segna, Cameron Sawa
four who are next in line and ready to step up.
They had taste of game time in recent seasons Adrian.

Speaker 4 (30:28):
Houston's Doulton Publi So yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, any number of players there, you know, I think
it's hard to go past the kind of quality and
the depth that they've built there. The Chiefs I grew
Wallace a TD being up for them is a big blow.
I'm interested to see how Clayton McMillan balances things as well.
Damien McKenzie wants time at teen obviously, Josh Jacob it
looks like a real up and comer. Do they give

(30:52):
him game time at ten and move McKenzie back to
fifteen Tenny Naneaea tutro Is there are thereabouts, but they're
going to lose Shawan Stevenson for at least the first
four weeks, so how do they balance that. That's the
interesting thing for me. Moving down the country that the
Hurricanes know Jordi Barrett at Leinster Ardie's gone. That's a
big loss for them, so it's hard to know exactly

(31:12):
what to get from the Hurricanes. No Brick Cameron, so
they lost a bit at ten this year as well.
Doing Flanders has suffered a broken league.

Speaker 3 (31:20):
So there's been so many injuries, and I think part
of that's down to the encouragement to be to disclose
these injuries, which is positive from a public point of view.

Speaker 4 (31:31):
I think everyone should be informed.

Speaker 3 (31:33):
But there has been some big casualties throughout well at
the back end of last year which weren't disclosed I
think by the All Blacks.

Speaker 4 (31:40):
Guys like Reuben Love.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
Sadari's now out for the season.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
Yeah, of course, yeah, but guys like I suffer our
moor Wallace a tit. We weren't aware they were injured
for the All Blacks, So what actually happened and why
did they? Did they play against Italy and then, like
you say, Sam Dowry throughout the preseason, so I think
you're always going to get that to start the year.
The Crusader's lost a couple of props as well, so
interesting to see how that shakes down. One of the

(32:05):
big questions I think for teams like the Hurricanes and
the Crews. One of the big overarching themes I think
from in his Geller perspective, as so many of the
playmakers are congested in the Upper North Island with the
Chiefs and Blues, so the Hurricanes are probably going to
start the season with Harry Godfrey. The Crusaders are what

(32:26):
Taha Kima or James O'Connor. The Highlands have got camp
probably going to invest heavily in Cam Miller. So there's
a real disparity in class there and how much of
affect that does that play?

Speaker 2 (32:39):
So I think it's a big time. You look at
the Super Rugby champions throughout the years and you need
a quality ten to steer you to the title. Pretty
much can't get by. But you might have some other
superstars on the team, but if you're lacking at ten,
you just can't get the job done. And no doubt
the Crusaders have been scratching around. Maybe they thought that
m longer'll be back next year. Now they've got to

(33:00):
look elsewhere and go, you know, as Taha Kima a
guy for another season after this. Rivers Rayhan is injured
for a bit of the season and James O'Connor's there.
The Hurricanes obviously Britt Cameron injured, Callum Harkins come into
the squad. They've got a lot of questions around that.
Rubin Love might play a bit of ten, but he's
not back until March, so he expects. So yeah, I

(33:22):
think this has been a problem in sub rugby before that.
A lot of the talent has been congested in one
position in one team. The Crusaders for years had a
lot of playmakers, and then you know, Colin Slade goes
south to the Highlanders for a bit, other you know,
other changes as well. But you've got to have a
quality ten and if you don't have it, the job
becomes very very hard. So immediately you look at the
Blues and the Chiefs with all black quality tens and

(33:45):
go they're automatically a step ahead. You mentioned the Holland
is there as well. Hard to know what to expect
from them under Jamie Joseph this year. A lot of
young players, a lot of academy players that are now
coming through. Fabian Holland had a bit of a taste
of the all Blacks environment. Didn't get on the park,
you know, Timothy, Timothy taaa why very impressive last year

(34:06):
I thought for the Highlanders O captain this show captain
this year. If you rent a player of immense super
rugby experience, but again very young team and hard to
know where they are going to pick up the wins,
especially against New Zealand teams this year.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
Yeah, one thing you do know, and what I have heard,
is that Jamie Joseph hasn't changed. Some of the trainings
have been notoriously ruthless, so they will be fits. Their
forward pack will be uncompromising with I think it's a
good move Clark Deermody going back into that capacity, but

(34:44):
they really do need to quickly unearth some of that
rising talent, don't They find a few nuggets of gold,
hang on to them, promote them, invest in them, and
that's what they've been trying to do.

Speaker 4 (34:54):
But they face an up fill battle.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
They do. I spoke to Sean Withy last week and
he reckoned they could do some surprise some teams this
year and certainly they're capable of doing that. But you know,
guy only get you so far in Super Rugby. You've
got to be consistent and you might pick up a
win here or there, but you've got to be ultra
consistent across the course of the seas and I think
it might be perhaps a year or two too early

(35:17):
for some of those young players at the Highlanders.

Speaker 3 (35:19):
From a neutual perspective, Super Rugby needs those surprises that
they need Australia to come in and rock the Blues
the Chiefs at home to turn the competition on it here,
they need the Fijian Jura to win. Away from home,
they need the Landers to pull off a few shock
upsets to spark that interest. If it's just goes to
scripts as we expect, the Chiefs and Blues playing another

(35:42):
title decider, it's not ho' harm. You and I are
still going to be engaged and interested, but it's not
going to attract the casual fans. So it needs to
be competitive. We need upsets, we need surprises. You need
teams like the Highlanders, Wina Pacifica, the Waratahs, whoever it
is to really you know, turn the tables spark some

(36:02):
interests because otherwise, but it's gonna be tough like that
Blues team is pretty much international quality it is.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
Let's dig a little into Moreida Pacifica Artie Savia going there,
as you mentioned a touch earlier, the biggest transfer in
Super rugby history that they've pulled off there. How much
will that instantly improve them? And what can they expect
in terms of results this year? They've had some tweaks
to some other positions, but buying large ARTI is the

(36:33):
big magnet that has comeing to their team. He's going
to captain them this year. How much of an instant
influence can be on one PACIFICA And do they become playoff.

Speaker 3 (36:41):
Cordy No, I don't think they've become playoff quality, but
that's very much their aspiration.

Speaker 4 (36:47):
It very much should be.

Speaker 3 (36:49):
I think Ardia is without doubt one of the most
inspirational figures, particularly from a Pacificer perspective, and he will
he will bring people with him. I think it's worth
noting that he is probably not going to be in
that team next year because he has a sabbatical option
that will mitigate his influence. But from this year at

(37:10):
least he will come in. He we've all heard that
he's lifted standards and expectations across the entire team. He's
been anointed captain. As he said, his style of rugby.
We'll bring people with him, but it's not going to
be enough. I don't think to bring Moana into the playoffs.

(37:33):
But one other point to note is I think they've
got something like fourteen new recruits and they have improved
their coaching team. They brought in celelem up Asuur who
was coaching Samoa, and they've got Tom Coventry and Tana
Umager and that's infinitely better than where they were with
Aaron Major a few years ago. It's a lot of unrest.
He was basically forced out by player power. They've got

(37:54):
a stable training base. They still don't have a home
as such, which is challenging, but you know, they've got
I think Jackson gunn Bash it was a good pickup
Solomon ala Malo brought him back from the NRL, So
they have got some decent pickups there. It's just whether
they have the quality and the consistency I think to

(38:16):
back it up week after week. But I would expect
them to be to improve and be competitive.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yeah, which is exactly what we need out of that
team and heading into the future of Super Rugby as well,
because to touch on that, you know, eleven teams is
suboptimal for this competition. There have been questions around one
of Pacific's ongoing involvements in this. They've seem to have
been put to bed, at least for the time being,
but there's always gonna be a question mark, especially when

(38:43):
the results on the park haven't been as good as
they can be, So if you look to Super Rugby's future,
it's probably got to expand again and find a twelfth
team because eleven is suboptimal in terms of draw buys,
everything like that, playoff systems. So just to be looking
at an overall picture, it's going to be interesting to
see where Super Rugby goes to in twenty twenty six,

(39:06):
which is also the commencement of a new broadcast deal
which is to be signed on both sides of the Tasment.

Speaker 3 (39:10):
Yeah, and it sounds like positive news out of Australia
that they're going to get significant uplift over there, which
is great news for them and great news for New
Zella Rugby because they've effectively been subsidizing Australia to keep
them off their knees. With the major events that they've got coming,
Super Ragby definitely wants needs another team. Where that comes
from and whether it's going to improve the competition, the

(39:32):
jury is out there. As you mentioned, eleven teams and
the top six final system this year, and I'm going
to put the onus on you, how Eliott and tell
your wee story. So I went over to Australia the
Gold Coast earlier this year for a boxing event. David Nacre,
it's fight over there, and I ran into none other
than Scott Robertson at the airport and neither of neither

(39:55):
he nor me could decipher this top six play a format.
At the time was early January, so I've got a
bit of time to work it out. But can you
explain to the punters out there, and the simplest possible
layman's terms, how this finals format works.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
It would be my pleasure, Liam. So you have six
teams in the playoffs. I'm with you now, yeah, good
start one play six, two plays five, three plays four.
The winners go through to the next round. So three winners,
three winners, the highest remaining seed that lost, so that

(40:35):
it'll be either team one, two or three. Well depends
who lost, it could be four.

Speaker 4 (40:41):
Yeah, gotcha.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
They will go through to.

Speaker 4 (40:44):
The semi finals.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Semifinals, so they get a second life. So it's not
the format that I would have gone with put it
that way, but it gives Super Rugby the most of
the maximum games in terms of the broadcasters, which you know,
I don't think is the right way to go about it.
But that's the way they've gone about it. You know,
the simplest way we to give one and two a
week off, three plays, six, four plays five instantly into

(41:06):
the semis.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
After that, that was the point is going to make.
There's not really enough reward. Is therefore topping the log.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
No, you get a second life if you're the losing
team from the first week that is the highest seed.
But if there are upsets there, you could be gone
first week. And I just don't know that there's enough reward,
Especially when you're putting six of eleven teams into a
plaoff system. You've got to give the upper teams some
more award, a second chance, whatever it might be, a
week off, some reward there. What they've gone with is

(41:33):
giving ultimately more games to the broadcasters. And we'll see
how it works this year. You know, maybe we're about
twelve next year and we can reinstate that popular eighteen
plaff that you were so forgot.

Speaker 4 (41:44):
Yes, there's very much a stopgap measure. All right, I'll
give you. I'll give you a pass mark for that.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
It's a pleasure. Is there any whispers about a twelve team?
Are we're hearing anything?

Speaker 4 (41:54):
Not currently.

Speaker 3 (41:54):
I mean, we had whispers last year about the hagaad
is about. You know, there's always talk about a team
in the West Coast of America. There's the long term
desire to bring in some of the Japanese top leagues,
but the incentive for them.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
Well, Butt and Barrett mentioned that last week, didn't he
that I'd love to see that Japan unless you were
to create a multiple division competition because there's so many
Japan japan teams, how do you peck and go to
Shiba Toyota, Kiboda Suntory. You're coming through with us, but
sorry to the Panasonic Wild Nights, you're gone. Unless you
were to create sort of a multi division Super rugby

(42:32):
competition that included Japan. It was three divisions, you can
include all those teams there. I just don't see how
that gets off the ground.

Speaker 4 (42:39):
I think longer term that's probably where it's going to
get to.

Speaker 3 (42:42):
They'll have to not bow to the Japanese wishes. But
they hold all the cards. Yeah, and they hold all
the money and money talks, and you've got the World
Club Championship to consider as well. If that still gets
off the ground.

Speaker 2 (42:57):
I understand as it is, yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:58):
Yeah, and that's twenty twenty six, twenty eight, I think
for twenty eight.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
Yeah, so there's a few things to play arts, but
I think Japan at least has a has a Rugby identity.
If you're going to go plunker team in the West
coast of the States, that's going to be a failure.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
No, And I think Boden Barrett made a good point
around the travel factor on tour with some of those teams,
and you could replace some of the factor of South Africa,
the fact that a lot of the Suffragan's actually playing
in Japan. If you bring them in, you're playing a
Peter Steff Bigthow, You're playing you know, Fuff the Clerk,
all those sort of players, You're actually playing them while

(43:36):
you play those Japan teams. It's a matter of how
it shakes down whether it could work as another matter entirely. Yeah. Yeah,
And the Japan teams instantly become better because they've got
more money.

Speaker 4 (43:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
All right, So let's get into some predictions for the
season of fact, let's do some tips for the weekend. First
and foremost, as we always do.

Speaker 4 (43:55):
Who's winning Round one, don't we?

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Friday Night Crusader's Hurricanes. Well the Hurricanes has got No.

Speaker 3 (43:59):
Ten so well yeah, because the Crusaders have got international
quality in their ranks.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
Walby's teen, Walby's teen, thank you very much.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
Well Luck, I hate to break it to here, but
your season is going to start where it left off
last year.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
With a win against Mowana. I think it was last year.

Speaker 4 (44:18):
Get on the cane cane train, mate.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Cane train is not going to get out of the station.
It is Crusaders. I'm going that way seven five and
Rob and Rob we trust before we make a big
play for Joe Schmidt in twenty twenty six and beyond.
Colm Mansbridge, if you're listening, get on the blower of
Joe right now. Wartars Highland is the star studded war
Retars in Sydney entertaining the Highlanders.

Speaker 4 (44:44):
Well it's a tough one, isn't it? Round one?

Speaker 3 (44:47):
I am going to go the war Tars.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
Yes, am, I I think they've got too much quality.
Will start the season. Sorry, Paul Kelly with the win
the drawer hosting the Brumbies. I know last week at
the Super Rugby Lord and showed us Ateno Robert Tamanda
was looking forward to welcoming the Brumbies on a sweltering
Saturday afternoon in Fiji.

Speaker 4 (45:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:10):
Look, I think I'm going to go the Brumbies and
I think Glenn Jackson's the new coach of the Dura
this year and I think they will not be as
good as they have been.

Speaker 4 (45:21):
In recent years.

Speaker 3 (45:22):
What's wrong with Queen Jackson. I don't not knocking Glenn.
I just think it's a bit of a transition here
for the for the.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
Seven five Saturday night. Looking forward to commentating this on
Goldswoldn't iHeartRadio? Grand Final rematch Blues and Chiefs Eden Park.
Do the Chiefs avenge in some way their defeat at
the same ground last year in the final?

Speaker 3 (45:44):
They do not, but it will be highly competitive and
what a way to start this season. Great to see Supergue.
We finally get some scheduling, right, Yeah, I'm with you.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
I think the Blues when that one and the Force
welcome on one to Pacifica to a Perth nine point
thirty five Saturday nights again. You can hear this song
called Sporting Nightheart Radio.

Speaker 3 (46:06):
You know what, I'm going to tip my line at
a one that it's always a tough place to win,
but a bit of positivity, so I'll give them the
benefit of the doubt to start there.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
I've got the fourth couple of new recruits, Darcy Sway,
a few others.

Speaker 4 (46:20):
He's got a good reputation, that's right.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
Yeah, hopefully it doesn't injure anyone.

Speaker 3 (46:26):
Yeah, an interesting matchup. When he comes head to have
quinter Pi, he'll be.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
Fireworks, could be fireworks. Right, let's get into our final four.
Big question, Liam, give me your winner of Super Rugby
plus the five other playoff sides.

Speaker 3 (46:40):
Okay, so Blues to win. Unfortunately, it's a bit boring
and predictable. Chiefs, Canes, Brumbies, Reds and maybe maybe the
Saders sneaking there and just scraping to sixth.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
Scrape into sixth. I think the Blues win it again.
I think the Chiefs made the playoffs, Crusaders make the playoffs,
the war Tars make the playoffs.

Speaker 4 (47:10):
You're going the Tars? Okay, Yeah, the.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
Reds make the playoffs and the drumount of playoffs.

Speaker 4 (47:14):
You left the Canes out, lift.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
The Canes out. You're no no Jordi, no TJ no
first five, no media managers, organizations and is Peter luck
to get to christ.

Speaker 3 (47:28):
Great in your Billy Proctor, suffer more, Tyre Lomax, mate,
lose your tin.

Speaker 4 (47:34):
The list goes on.

Speaker 3 (47:35):
Harry Godfree, we trust man, We'll see and Ruben Love
will be back.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
Yeah, that'll be a big game once they get him back.
But I think it'll be they'll be chasing it.

Speaker 4 (47:43):
Look, you're going to regard you know, I'm not going
to let you forget this.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
Okay, Super Rugby m v P.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
Oh well, probably if the Blues are winning, it probably
has to be someone from the Blues.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
Because it could be an all around team performance. It
gets the Blues to the title. You might have someone
starring in a wicked team that gets all the points
every week. Hoskins last year, you're true. I am going
to go with not finily Christie cam Roygaate. Oh yeah,

(48:18):
well there is another one you missed. You know, I'm
going to go Harry Plumber on his way out the door,
Harry Plumber. Is he going to get enough game time?

Speaker 4 (48:28):
Well, he could play twelve.

Speaker 3 (48:30):
Boden can play fullback and you know what, it'd be
pretty hard to go past him after what he did
last year. But very interesting to see how that plays out,
isn't it.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
I'm going Joseph Sua Lee to be the super rugby
m VP. Cool.

Speaker 4 (48:44):
What positions is he going to play?

Speaker 2 (48:45):
Fullback?

Speaker 4 (48:46):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (48:46):
It sounds like he's been training there and I would
like to see that. But more space to Rome. He's
brolling in the air. Get him evolved, get him in space. Absolutely,
he's really on the tars yeast. This happens every year.
The Hype train now the Sydney and they fall flat.
The style of forward for the hype trade drinking the
kool well.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
Last year write tipped the Chiefs drew a Fighter, which
did the exactly yes yes. Topic three in the final four,
who are you Wooden Spooners.

Speaker 4 (49:18):
Going to go the force?

Speaker 2 (49:19):
The force? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (49:23):
Mawana no love, no love, okay?

Speaker 2 (49:29):
Topic number four. I originally wrote this last night before
some news reports had emerged that there's emergency Wales board
meeting in forty eight hours as well as rub union
to decide the future of Warren Gallon. The original question
Lamb was will Warren Gatlan still be Wales coach by
the time the All Blacks visited in November? The new
question is will Warren Gatlin still be the Wales coach
by the time we do this podcast next week.

Speaker 3 (49:51):
I think he will. But he should have been gone
at the back end of last year. They made a mistake.
They it was a weak decision, but I personally don't
see there's a lot of upside and rushing into appointing
an interim What are they going to do put Rob
Howley in there mid tournaments? They need to take time,

(50:13):
have a proper recruitment process find their next coach. But look,
it's bloody grim, isn't it. And I wouldn't blame them
for getting rid of them. Maybe they save themselves some
money by saving wait until the end of the tournament.

Speaker 4 (50:26):
I'm not too sure.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
Yeah, I mean they're probably hoping he resigns and perhaps
of feeding out some of these stories to go, Colin Warren,
save us a bit of coin and just fall on
your sword. Whether that happens or not, I don't know,
but maybe an interim coach you might be able to
get a bit of a new coach bounce. Just for
the back end of this tournament. I think they've got
Island next. When the competition returns from the break this week,

(50:48):
I think he's gone and we'll have an interim coach
in charge for the rest of the six nations and then
they can go and recruit. And we touched on some
of those contenders around the place, you know for the
Wallabies job. Maybe some of them look to the valleys
and go that way. And before we go on Rugby
Direct this week, good chance to catch up worth a

(51:09):
number of the rugby identities last week at the Super
Rugby launch in Sydney, and also sat down with the
chief executive of Super Rugby Jack Missley, as he counts
down to his first season in charge. Let's have a listen,
Jack Missley, chief executive of Superroggy Pacific. Welcome to Rugby Direct.
Thanks for your time, thanks for having us. How excited
to you your first season in charge of Super Rugby Pacific.

Speaker 5 (51:32):
Yeah, I'm so excited.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
I can't wait for it to be.

Speaker 5 (51:35):
To kick it off on the fourteenth of February. I've
had six months in the role now and you know,
I thoroughly enjoyed my time getting to know everyone sort
of in the ecosystem and getting the planned down for
twenty five and yeah, just itchy feet now to kick
it off and get it going.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
No rebels obviously, the ship, which has been well documented.
Do you think there'll be a concentration of talent on
those Australian teams and how will that affect the overall
product on the park?

Speaker 5 (52:02):
Yeah, I mean there's no doubt squads have been bolstered
and you know, we're glad we could. You know that
they've those players are found a home that will just
drive competition for place, drive standards in all those all
those organizations, and hopefully we see that come out on.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
The on the park. I guess everyone's got an idea
and everyone's got an opinion around with Super Rugby can
be better? How tricky is that? Balancing that and trying
to implement new things? And we've seen the fantasy competition
this year, but it feels like a competition with everyone's
got an idea of how it could be improved or changed.
How do you balance that as the chief executive? Yeah, well, firstly.

Speaker 5 (52:41):
We're really lucky that people care enough to have an opinion,
So you know that's exciting, and you know what we've
got to work through is how we prioritize the things
that we do with the with the resources we have.
And so for us, that's about making sure we're listening,
but also going and seeking seeking information, be that fan

(53:06):
insight or be that shape of game data to work
through what will have the most impact and then balancing
that across a competition that spans across five different countries
and he's watched globally, and so that added complexity of
where to focus, you know, comes with a little bit
of Okay, well this might work really well in New Zealand,

(53:32):
maybe that's not an issue in Australia. So that is
a challenge. But we have there's a lot of low
hanging fruit. I think that we still have to pick
to make sure that we are as good as we
can be on field, and that you know, we have
all of the tools for fans to engage with the competition,

(53:52):
so there's still lots of work to do.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
One of those is Fantasy, which is launching for the
first time to the Super Agybander the season, something that
fans have cried out for for a while. How important
is that strategically to get that into the market and
have people playing that.

Speaker 5 (54:05):
Yeah, I mean it's a great example of you know,
fans wanting different ways to engage with the competition, and
gamification is a really growing part of sport, so it's
it is really important and we can't wait for fans
to to start playing. We also want that to feel

(54:27):
a whole new sort of content cycle which which we
can have fun with, bring new voices into the competition,
and where we're working through how we support those emerging
voices as well. So yeah, gamification more broadly is going
to continue to be important for us to look at.
You know, we've decided with Fantasy to go with a

(54:50):
fairly accessible product to start with that will be really
easy to use, and you know, we're already getting feedback
from more hardcore super fans wanting you know, other iterations
of Fantasy with drafts and things like that. So you know,
the so there's so many different things we can be doing,

(55:10):
and we'll continue to look at how we build on
the foundations we're laying.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
You've come from the A League, which is I guess
in Australia. Ge'st the NRAL of AFL. What listens do
you learned from the A League that you can implement
in super Rugby.

Speaker 5 (55:26):
Yeah, it was my time in the A League and
you know, prior to that, I also worked for one
of the NRL clubs so yeah, there's some good learnings
that I've got from from some of our competitors. Now,
my time at the A Leagues was was really interesting.
It was a time where the A League stepped away
from Football Australia and ran as its own entity. So

(55:48):
there are some commonalities there with us setting up a
new a new entity to run Super Rugby and so
you know, there are some direct learnings there around the
phasing in what we should focus on, where we should
where we should allocate resource, and work through what's what's important.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
You know.

Speaker 5 (56:08):
In the unbundling on the A Leagues from Football Australia,
one of the learnings was that we focused a lot
on content and digital platform but maybe didn't have as
close a eye on.

Speaker 4 (56:23):
Our core product on the ground.

Speaker 5 (56:26):
And so we're really trying to get that balance right
to make sure the amazing athletes with God on the
park are playing as good as shape of game as
we can for fans, and to ensure that the diverse
skill sets that exists through one to twenty three can shine,
but also then balance that with stuff off the park

(56:47):
to drive fan interest and appeal. So yeah, lots of
learnings from the previous experience.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
So it's no longer really about the eighty minutes on
the park of the weekend. It's that full week sort
of experience, isn't it. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 5 (56:59):
We know, the old business model of sport would be that, okay,
clubs have fourteen games to run their business. With the
advent of digital media, clubs now have the ability, the
competition now has the ability to engage arou undred and
sixty five days of the year. And you know, making
sure our full week in a Super Rugby Pacific week

(57:22):
is full and fans are getting the information they want
is really important.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
And then our next.

Speaker 5 (57:27):
Step is to work through, Okay, outside of those nineteen
weeks of Super Rugby, how we feel in conversations about
Super Rugby the rest of the year, because there is
so much that happens within our clubs and within the
competition outside of those nineteen weeks that fans want to
know more about.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
You know, that could be filling squads and how clubs
go about it.

Speaker 5 (57:49):
That could be you know, there's huge interest in preseason
training on things like you know, you know who's lifting what,
who's running what, and so you know, once we get
our nineteen weeks sorted and really embed that communication flow
and that content. You know, the next thing for us

(58:10):
is to extend out of that nineteen weeks.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
Without the rebels this year down to eleven teams. Is
that sustainable for this competition to have eleven teams? Does
it need to be twelve? Ordre us that ten? Can
you get by with that odd number for too long?

Speaker 1 (58:26):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (58:26):
I think we can.

Speaker 5 (58:28):
There's no doubt an odd number throws up some complexity
when it comes to fixturing and feeling key slots around
a weekend.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
But you know, we'll see.

Speaker 5 (58:40):
You know, we think we've done a good job with
a fixture in balancing balancing those complexities spacing of buyers
for example, ensuring that we're hitting key markets across the
Pacific every week.

Speaker 2 (58:54):
But we'll live and learn through that.

Speaker 5 (58:55):
And being its first year, we'll continue to really watch
that closely.

Speaker 2 (58:59):
You've mentioned those timeslots there you mentioned in your speech
before afternoon fan friendly sort of timeslots which people have
been crying out for a while. How important. So I
guess keep that accessible four p thirty Saturday afternoon, three
o'clock Sunday, whatever it might be to get those new
fans on board. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (59:17):
I mean, I'm a father of three.

Speaker 2 (59:19):
Myself, so.

Speaker 5 (59:21):
It is really important that we hit those spots and
that we you know, we're also thinking about the nuances
of different geographies because an afternoons lot doesn't work for everyone,
and so you know, what works in Duneden is different
to what works in Wellington is different to what works
in Sydney, and so as well as making sure we

(59:44):
have those you know, family friendly time slots, you know,
where we want to go with fixturing is adding in
that additional level of smarts to make sure that we're
considering you know, Chiefs fans being different to you know,
Brumbies fans, and so you know, we're looking at that

(01:00:05):
in terms of our planning horizons. You know, we want
to get ahead of venue availability to give us more
options and we want more time to be able to
implement some of those things as well.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
No super Round this year. Do you envisit it being
on the scheduling in at some point?

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:00:22):
I do. I think it's a great weekend to celebrate
super Abi specific and Rugby more broadly and bring fans together.
We're certainly looking at for twenty twenty six and beyond
and having some really good discussions with some.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
Territories and cities that.

Speaker 5 (01:00:42):
I think would be super exciting for Super Ambi fans.

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
With just a few days to launch. Now, I guess
the work's being done. You can just sort of leave
it to the players and it's ultimately up to them,
isn't it. Whether you know, the Aussie sides come together
and put some pressure on the New Zealand sides, or
whether it's the Blues that go back to back. But
ultimately it's down to the players and the product, isn't it.
And that dictates a lot of it. Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:01:06):
But as a competition, you know, week in week out,
we will be reviewing the on field product, working with
the match officials.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
To make sure that our focus area.

Speaker 5 (01:01:20):
Is to set the players up for success are executed well.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
And then, as we've.

Speaker 5 (01:01:26):
Talked about, making sure each week that consistent fly of communication,
whether it be injury update, judicial outcomes, team lists, all
of those things happen, you know, in a really great
way so that fans, media, our great broadcast partners have
all the information they need to have the water cooler

(01:01:49):
conversation or you know for yourself, you know, be able
to report on the on the comp.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
So there we go Jack Measley and we will hopefully
get him back on the podcast as the season goes on. Truly,
plenty of issues that we can get stuck into with
Jack at some point a bit later in the season. Liam,
it's been good to be back and get back into
the rug your Direct studios for twenty twenty five and
promises to be a big old year, doesn't it.

Speaker 4 (01:02:12):
It does.

Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
Indeed it can smell the linament, shoulders are warm, hamstrings
are getting there. A few hot colds yeap, much needed.
At they say literally, have a good week.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
We'll catch you back next week on Rugby Directs. Thanks
to Habit Health tackling all your aches and pains from
sport on work

Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
For more from News Talks ed B Listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
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