August 10, 2025 • 37 mins
This week on Rugby Direct, Elliott Smith and Liam Napier discuss Richie Mo'unga's impending return to New Zealand Rugby in 11 months time and what it means for the All Blacks, Crusaders and Canterbury.
We also preview the Rugby Championship starting this weekend, with a specific eye to the All Blacks and Argentina this weekend in Cordoba. We ask what success looks like in the Rugby Championship for the All Blacks this year and discuss the future of the Rugby Championship as it prepares to undergo some changes.
And we also hear from Argentina's Kiwi attack coach Kendrick Lynn ahead of the All Blacks test.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks ed B.
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Strike Down the Middle.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Of Dry, Dicky Scy try.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Get inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct
with Elliot Smith and Leam Napier powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome into Rugby Direct powered by Forklift Solutions. Back again
as we count down to the first test of the
Rugby Championship. First weekend of the Rugby Championship and from
a New Zealand perspective, the All Blacks in action against
Argentina ten past nine on Sunday morning in called Dobe.
You can hear it live on News Talks ab Gold
(00:57):
Sport and iHeartRadio. But before we get into that big
welcome into Liam Napier as always, greetings, great to be
here earlier yep, and we counting down obviously to that
test mat for some big news in the back end
of last week that Richie Muwong is returning to New
Zealand rugby in more eleven months time July twenty twenty
six through to December twenty twenty seven. I mean this
(01:21):
has been in the background for quite some time. Even
since he left. Basically it was trying to get him
back to New Zealand Rugby. They finally managed to get
his signature on the line for an eighteen month deal.
It means he'll play at the twenty twenty seven Rugby
World Cup, if selected and if fit. I guess your
reaction to that news.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
First and foremost, it's not a surprise, as Elliott, I
think it was always a case of when, not if
Richie Muwanga would return home. It's probably a year later
than everyone anticipated.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Certainly there was a.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Widespread expectation that he would cut short that deal that
didn't eventuate. New Zealand Rugby ends Toshiba couldn't agree financial terms,
but he is coming home eighteen months. It's an interesting
length of contract. I guess it's does mean he's eligible
for the World Cup, as you mentioned, but it's a
(02:16):
bit of a hit and run mission, isn't It allows
him to potentially go back to Japan and kash and
again there and it's going to be a very interesting
dynamic for Scott Robinson to manage because Boden Barrett is
taking a claim as the All Blacks starting first choice.
Ten Damien McKenzie is there. You've got Reuben Love and
(02:40):
Stephen Peter Fetter and behind them. But Rich mu Wonga
is a world class ten. We haven't seen him on
the international stage for a couple of years, but Robinson
has always wanted him, hasn't he And now he will
get him back. How does he manage that scenario?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Well, I has been looking in the background and you know,
Boden Barrett and Damien McKenzie aren't stupid. They would know
that this was a likely possibility for twenty twenty seven
and that's you know, it's not really a surprise. I
don't think, you know, they can't have been thinking that
this is going to be straightforward that they're the one
two for the World Cup. Yup, There's going to be
(03:17):
some things to manage, but perhaps no more than other players.
It's just been a higher profile inclusion. And you know,
Boden Barrett himself has come back from playing in Japan,
hasn't missed much All Black rugby because of that. But
you know t J. Petinara has come back in There's
been precedent before and at some point later in the
year lestifying a Nuoku will come back in. So it's
(03:37):
because I think the ten is such a pervotal role
that everyone goes house is going to be balanced. But
to this point in time, hard to argue that Barrett
or Mackenzie have gone there. You know, the laydown Missie
option to start at ten for the All Blacks right
through the cycle. Mackenzie had his opportunities last year. Now
Boden Barrett is the first choice in the minds of
(03:59):
that and suspect Richie Wong will get a run next year.
So over the next eighteen months or thereabouts, there's probably
going to be a lot of test matches for these
players to show they wear and by the time you
get to August September whenever it is, twenty twenty seven,
Bill Blacks will have an idea of their pecking order.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yeah, I think Boden Barrett hasn't fully convinced yet, but
he's certainly building a case, isn't he that he has
come again as a test verse five? He is showing
that game control along with the moments of brilliance. But yeah,
I just this's going to be some personalities to manage
(04:37):
and some big selection calls because you bring a guy
like Richie Muwonga an out and out competitor, a world
class player. He's not going to want to sit on
the bench. He's going to want to start. You want
all the best players available for the All Blacks. But yeah,
it's going to be a tricky dynamic for Robertson to
manage because he has invested in Bowden, probably told him
(04:59):
he's his guy. He's told Damien he's right there and
he's going to get his chance. And then suddenly Richie's
back and he's got eighteen months to contest that starting
ten Jersey. So and as you mentioned, there are other
dynamics that play there, listifying and look who could feasibly
push Rikawani out of the first choice squad. So how
(05:22):
Robertson manages those selection dynamics can have a destabilizing effect
on a squad potentially could do.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
But there's no guarantee that by twenty twenty seven McKenzie
and Barretts or more longer for that exactly, for that matter,
in that All Blacks twenty twenty seven squad. You know,
players come in and out of times. You're not guaranteed
in All Blacks Jersey, So you know us you've got
to manage people that are in your squad. But there's
also a requirement to do what's best for the All
Blacks and the All Blacks Jersey. And if that is
(05:52):
selecting Richie Moonger because he's the best available ten in
Robertson's mind, then I think he has to go do it.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
So what what shaped does Muwanga come back in? Because
generally Jordi Barrett's the exception and he tellingly didn't go
to Japan. He went to let Leinster. Muanga has led
to Shepard to back to back League One titles in
Japan and the footage you see of him as they're
(06:18):
still carving up playing well, but most, if not all
players that have come back from Japan take a while
to find their feet. It's a different style of rugby.
It's not at test rugby level. Eighteen months isn't a
huge amount of time and he's not just going to
be starting every game. What sort of form shape do
(06:38):
you expect him to come back in.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Well, two years driving to Shuba and two titles there
is what he's been able to deliver there, and yeah,
it's probably not at the same level of rugby. But
I think the Japanese competition is probably because it's out
of sight, out of mind, doesn't get the perhaps credit
it deserves. It has evolved into a much better competition
than it was five ten years ago. It's a lot tighter,
(07:00):
there's not as many blowouts than there has been before.
So yep, there'll be a major adjustment required from Moong
coming back to New Zealand rugby. But he's been in
the drivers seat and he's led them to two titles,
so he's clearly got that golden touch that has continued
at the Crusaders. There's a lot of factors at played
that are going to have to be managed and whether
he comes back in it and straight for his choice, so
whether he has to go and play some tour games,
(07:20):
whatever it might be, it's gonna be fascinating, as you said,
to see arm folds.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
It is, and there's going to be a number of
comings and goings because next year Antonina Brown, Rico Awani
and Artie Severa or skipping Super Rugby, they will come
back and be available for the All Blacks. But and
then Richie comes back, maybe Shannon Frazell as well, So look,
you get all those guys back on deck at strengthens
(07:45):
the All Blacks, doesn't.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
It It does, indeed a couple of other we but
some pieces doing the rounds and super Rugby. You've got
some whispers or some news to report to us on
Rugby Direct.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Yeah, if he whispers Eliot, it sounds like Angus Tartovel
potentially shifting from the Blues to the Highlanders form All
Blacks been well traveled around the traps. I guess he's
stuck behind. And Josh for Stur is a big mover
at the Blues and offered to hing a fuss. He's
meant to be back next year. That's yet to be confirmed,
(08:15):
but that's what I'm hearing, And apparently the Highland is
making a big play for Josh Jacob. Jacob has contracted
to the Chiefs in twenty twenty six. But for me,
I don't know how what you'll read on this is,
but he's a wasted talent at the Chiefs. He's barely
had many starts playing back up to McKenzie. The Hearland
is a crying out for a ten. Jacob's got a
(08:38):
young family. But in my mind it was a wrong decision,
or however you want to describe it, to turn down
the Crusaders when they approached him a couple of years ago.
He could have had opportunities there. You need to be
playing rugby. He's started a lot for the All Blacks fifteen,
so he's on that radar, but his talents, his progression
(08:59):
has stagnated. So Brady McAllister moved from the Crusaders to
the Chiefs.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
And he had a year to go on his contract
is where he got a early release from the Crusaders.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
It's not common, but it's not without precedent, and it
is good to be talking about these sort of stories
because super rogue we tends to die out of season,
so interesting to see where those guys end up. But
Heland is clearly on a big recruitment drive, having signed
David Kibwa, was defense coach. Jamie Joseph is expected to
lead their All Blacks fifteen. So could get in Jacob's
(09:31):
ear and try and convince him could do.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
And I'm also hearing Olie mathis poised to sign for
the Crusaders. I know he's been asked about it in
recent weeks and has sort of played it down, but
my understanding is that he will be at the Crusaders. Well,
one of the young, real young talents of New Zealand rugby.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Very promising, undoubtedly shining again for Wakatur the other nights,
broad range of skills. Doesn't he for a loose forwards? Yeah?
I think those in Chiefs country would be pretty pretty
pissed about that.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
But a good get for the Casaders.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah, and the Crusade mean the Chiefs have now got
to get another loose FORWD in the All Blacks and
the form Simon Parker, so it's pathway a little bit
blocked the end, although he could play out on the wing,
which we'll send him to for White Cut. So let's
get into the Rugby Championship with the All Blacks playing
Argentina first up. Obviously, the squad was named last week
for there's tour and a large squad for the tour.
(10:24):
I guess if you compare it to quote unquote the
top team that started the French series and say that
they say Wellington and that first test in Dunedin, do
we expect many changes or does it matter of say,
you know, the players like Scott Barrett coming back into
the second row, you know Wallace a t t at
number eight, Those sort of things for this test and
(10:45):
first test in called over well.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
I think first and foremost this will be the All
Black's first choice team. They're not going to take any
chances with the Pumas that lost to them and Wellington
last year will still firmly sticking the clare and that
won't allow the Pumas that the elements of surprise that
they had maybe the All Blacks underestimated of them, maybe
though caught by a surprise. That certainly won't be the
(11:07):
case into Argentina for two games over there, So it
will be the All Blacks' best available team. And with
that and minds, you know you'd expect if Wallace is fit,
he probably comes back in and starts, doesn't he And
the same for Scott Barrett Well.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I think it's a straightforward thing, isn't it. You know
Leo Will he's not there, so Tidi comes back in,
assuming he's good to go at number eight. It's the
path of least resistance. You don't have to tweak too
many things. That's assuming he's poised to get through eighty minutes,
I guess is the one question that would be there
around it. But if he's in the squad good to go.
Then I'd say Wallace a TDI comes in the half
(11:43):
back is fascinating. Now, of course he's right Tomid. Does
he just elevate himself to nine or is there actually
a little bit of a conversation to be had there?
Speaker 3 (11:51):
No, I think Courtez comes in at nine. Finlay hasn't
been around that group, and Preston probably still has a
bit of time to get up to speeds his first
time in the All Blacks can be but players can
get a bit overall by that, So I think Courtez
comes into art there. What's the most contestable role? We
(12:13):
know the first choice the incumbents Tomighty Williams isn't available
for the first Test. Sounds like you'll come back for
the seconds. What do you see is the most contestable
probably to provide a six the midfields. Does Billy Proctor
get another gut center?
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I think Billy Procter does go. I mean, I think
those roles are contestable over time. Maybe not so much
for this Test match as a one off for and
you know, just singling it out, but I think over
time those jerseys are still contestable. In terms of blind
soide flanker. In terms of center, Billy Proctor had two tests.
I would have liked to see him get a third
in that series. He didn't. I suspect he's still at
this point in time the first choice in the All Blacks. Minds.
(12:51):
We had Scott Hansen say during the week that it's
not other run as possibility. We might see Rico Yuani
go back and descend it, but he's been included as
an outside back and in this squad as well, So yeah,
I'd go Billy Proctor at thirteen outside Jordi Barrett feels
like the most natural combine nation that they've got there,
and just hope that that Test rugby clicks for Billy
(13:14):
proped to because it probably hasn't to this point.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Yeah, I thought he was. He got better as that
series war on. In Wellington. I thought he played well
on both sides of the ball, particularly in the second half,
but hasn't looked as good as he did in Super
rugby and just needs that more time, I think. Just
note that Simon Parker is being playing NPC this weekend
so clearly won't be included in that. In that first
(13:40):
test squads, he was the notable inclusion in the All
Black s Rugby Championship mix. And there's a couple of others.
Aren't there playing the MPC this weekend? Yeah there are
last weekend yep, so interesting see how they come through that.
Trying to think off Tom Ofhead who exactly they are,
But yeah, the players are playing an MPC of the weekend,
just being mon't be playing the first test, and it's
(14:02):
just it's a nightmare to get to Argentina. It takes
about seventy two hours, not that much, but they weren't
playing in that first test.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
No wings.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Do you expect Rico and severice very contestable spots on
the wing?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
But I do, Yeah, I think for this first test
match and if they win in Cordo. But it doesn't
give them a license necessarily because Argentina are a very
very tough team and often better when they've had you know,
one game and can can see the team. I suspect,
you know, suspect that probably that may give them a
little bit of license to look at it in Atawa
(14:37):
or even the Leroy Carter for the second test of
this trip. But I would be very surprised if anything
other than the incumbents and by using incumbents and Inta
combas Rico, Uani and Severice get the nod there and
then Will Jordan at fullback. So that's the team that
I would pick. Feels relatively straightforward to this point.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Yeah, front row tyro a Lomax out, so Fletch Newell
probably comes in there. What about Lucid with to Mighty
Williams still one week away from coming back.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I think to Grout starts there. You know, I thought
he built over that series. He's still, in my mind,
not delivering what the All Blacks would like him to.
I don't think that the passing game comes natural to
ethan degree that the All Blacks are clearly attacking in
that shape now and asking their props to do a
(15:26):
little little bit more handling of the ball and setting
up the back line as well, just in some of
the carries they're doing. So I can't see them going
against the grain for that one. But again, the second Test,
if the All Blacks won the first one, could be
interesting because you still have a week off in between
the Second Test and Buenos Aire's and coming home for
(15:47):
that game at Eden Park. But they may just look
to get some players on ice get to Mighty Williams
and the team and.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Change a few things up.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
If we take a step back and look at the
Rugby Championship as a whole, what's the successful tournament for
the All Blacks that they didn't want it last year,
lost those two games in South Africa. They've never in
history not won the Rugby Championship too in a row.
Is it as simple as when the title or bust?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I think it is this year because they have the
softer Rugby Championship draw that you would get and I
use this with the greatest subspect to Argentina, but they're
still searching for that first one on home soil and
until that comes in, it will be seen as a
softer trip having two games in Argentina rather than the
two in South Africa under the format that the Rugby
(16:32):
Championship now operates, so when you've got South Africa twice
at home, it's easy than playing them at Alice Park
and playing them in Cape Town wherever it might be.
So I think this year it's win or bust for
Scott Robertson and his team, and the All Blacks have
never not won at two years in a row, so
there's an expectation that they'll bounce back. South Africa's gonna
(16:54):
be all mightily tough when they come to Eden Park
and to Sky Stadium in a few weeks time. But
I think that they have to go out and win
it otherwise it can't be deemed a successful campaign.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
What's the you, Yeah, I think there should write be
an expectation that the All Blacks reclaim the Rugby Championship.
If you remove the title, I think going one on
one with the spring Box would be acceptable, Probably less
so if that loss comes at Eden Park, just because
of the historical significance and everything that's gone before. The
(17:29):
All Blacks always talk about the history, the legacy and
they will be desperate to uphold that. That matches, in
my mind, the most important Test match this year, and
the spring Box will be gunning for it. But just
because of where the Springboks are at, I think there
does need to be a bit of context about them
being world champions. The depth are built their record over
(17:51):
the past few years.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
But yeah, the All Blacks are on home soil.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
There on home soil and they've got a record that
they you know, winning is you know what they're expected
to do it's the key to their commercial success. So
you've got to win these big games when they come along.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
They do and so reclaim the title. But as far
from straightforward.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
All right, we'll give me your finishing order then for
the Rugby Championship.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
All right, look, oh, the Box a favorites, but I'll
back the All Blacks to finish top to win the
Rugby Championship. Box second, I'm going to say the Pumas
finish third and the Wallaby's fourth. I think the lines
tour will actually take a bit of a toll on
them by the end, and they'll be missing a few
(18:37):
of those key guys like Skelton. I think he may
be available for the opening Rugby Championship game against the Box,
but then we'll go back to France and yeah, I
just feel like the Wallabies may run out of depth
and a bit of steam.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah. I kind of feel the same way. It's going
to be a long six games by the time they
get to Perth for that final game against the All Blacks,
I will probably Yeah, I'm going to go South Africa
finish top. I think they'll split one one in New
Zealand and some of the other results will conspire to
to get them to the top. The All Blacks will
just narrowly miss out and maybe you know, in seven
(19:13):
eight weeks time we're reviewing it as a good campaign,
but not a great one from the All Blacks. And third,
I think probably the Wallabies just to buy the basis
that well they've got the Poombers twice at home. I
think they should beat the Poomers twice at home, although
the last time the Pumas are there from memory they'll
drop one of them. So it is set up as
an interesting Rugby Championship, isn't it. And there's a lot
(19:34):
of questions around the Rugby Championships future. We've got the
rugby's greatest rivalry coming in next year, still to be
officially confirmed, but it is happening. Three tests against the
spring Box. The All Blacks will go over the year.
It'll return in twenty thirty. So the Rugby Championships in
an interesting place, isn't it? Because this year it's the
full format. We won't see the full format again until
(19:55):
twenty twenty eight. Given twenty twenty seven is a Rugby
World Cup year, it's truncated so and then after that
you know it's pushed back a little bit because the
Lion's coming to New Zealand. If unless Stephen Jones has
his way and they go and play in France, then
it's South Africa coming here for three tests. So is
that an interesting juncture the Rugby Championship And I guess
(20:16):
if you're the All Blacks and New Zealand Rugby and
Sansar as a whole kind of needs to have a
bit of a stake in the ground as to what
the Rugby Championship actually is and where it goes to
from here.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Yeah, it was so to simplify that it's the full
version once every four years, and that's not totally their
Sansar is doing or the Southern Hemisphere because of that
World Cup year as you mentioned. But I think the
less you have of something, the more you the more, the.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
Less prestige it has.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
And there's an argument for me that the Rugby Championship
is the toughest regular tournament in the world. I think
because of the travel for one, and because of the
fact that the All Blacks and Springboks are in the
six nations. Is competitive. But Wales have fallen off a cliff.
Italy a getting better, but they are too reasonable, wind
(21:15):
banking games in the Six Nations. It's got great traveling fans,
but I think I think the Rugby Championship in my mind,
is actually harder to win, but it does lose significance
and prestige when it's out of sight, out of mind.
And if you're the Wallabies, I'm a huge fan of
bringing back these South African tours. That's going to be
(21:36):
massive in a rugby sphere for those countries. But if
you're the Wallabies or Poomas, you're sort of left out
in the cold for two years, aren't you.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
You are.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
And clearly in zid Are and South African rugby have
gone bug of that. Don't worry about them. We will
push on with what we want to do and that's
the right. But it does leave them out in the cold.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
And there are negotiations compensation agreements to be agreed being
negotiated currently behind closed doors between New Zealand Rugby and
Rugby Australia.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
Because of that.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
What I would say is though in terms of this
Rugby Championship, it's never the tournament itself, always feels like
a little bit of an afterthought to the little two
match series that play out in between, and you know,
most people looking forward to the you know, the spring
box in the middle of it, those two tests in there,
you know they're going to go on on to two
Tests tour to Argentina and then obviously the Bledderso carp
(22:33):
at the end. This is from a New Zealand perspective obviously,
but it feels like almost those little two match tours
feel more important than the points table at the end
of the Rugby Championship. And maybe that's where it's got
to because you know, I take your point around the
competitiveness and that things like that, but it doesn't have
the same prestige in terms of winning the Six Nations
winning the Rugby Championship in my mind.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
No, I agree, because it doesn't have the historical significance.
It doesn't have the traveling fans and the same intense
passionate following. Yeah, and you're right. I think since the
four went to those two match towards, it did become
more about those mini face offs than previously where it
(23:16):
was one off match against South Africa, then Australia and
the Pumas and sort of doing the round. So yeah,
rugby evolves doesn't it, And that's the greatest rivalry between
the Orblex and spring Box is going to be massive
once every four years. So I'm not going to sit
here and say they've got it wrong. But I think
the Ruby Championship over time that the prestige of it
(23:39):
winning it has been slowly eroded.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, and I think that the two match series probably
as you said, have contributed to that. And it feels
like the Ruby Championships are just sort of a bucket
to have these fixtures in rather than a trophy that
means a lot. And you know, your mileage and your
point of view may vary on that if you're listening,
but it does feel that, yeah, maybe these tweaks it
(24:02):
might not be the best thing for its long term health.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Yeah. I think it did mean a lot to the
spring Box last year because it was the first time
that'd on it in a long time. Neil Black's held
an ironclad grip on it, so it meant a lot
to them then, But it would probably mean less to
them this year if they want to.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, and look, if your Black beats at Africa to nil,
what are you most a mirror of the year. The
fact that beats to Africa to nil, or the fact
that they won the Rugby Championship.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Yeah, you could argue the Freedom Cup holds prior to
place over the Rugby Championship quite.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Possibly, and then that was big for South Africa as
well getting it back last year as well a few
other matters to touch on this week in terms of
the Rugby World Australia confirming the Ghetto Law has been axed.
I think it was about a year ago. Actually they
managed to sort of sweep that through, but it's finally
come to public conscience now.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fares, Every.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Tri drive a sixty severy tackle, tack tackles, get up again.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
Before it's Rugby Direct.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Ladies talks one of the great names of the law,
the Ghetto Law, when it came in in twenty fifteen
for that Rugby World Cup with Michael Chicker and co.
Feels like it's probably served its time from an Australian
perspective though, I mean this is by the sound of
it been in place for about a year and Joe
Schmidt hasn't gone balls to the war wall and picked
(25:27):
through France and England and Japan. To pick all the
possible overseas players he can. So while the law has gone,
certainly from Joe Schmidt's perspective, it doesn't feel like he's
just going to go and look overseas and Super Rugby
be damned.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
So I guess the getto law was brought in the
twenty fifteen World Cup for when Michael Chicker was coached,
so they could select Ghetto and Drew Mitchell and maybe
a couple of others, and it has evolved over time.
The Wallabies in recent times have had some with Karev,
Marika Cotta, Betty will Skelton. I think they picked Kwake Cooper,
(26:06):
maybe a couple of others and whatnot. But honestly, I
don't see it having a drastic effect because well, at
least while Joe Schmitt's there, because he has prioritized selecting domestically,
and I think the caveat or the expectation is if
(26:27):
there's a fifty to fifty decision, they will select local.
And the other reality is there's actually not that many
spots in the global game open now in Japan or
France or the UK or wherever it is. You have
to be quite an elite player to get those and
it's not you know that the financial landscape recruiting is
(26:47):
not what it used to be. So yeah, maybe we
see a few more top line Australian players shoot offshore
and the rather than the test game. The big impact
could come at super rugby level, right Like Australia are
just starting to improve in the demise of the Melbourne Rebels.
If you take a few key guys out of those teams,
(27:10):
that could really affect their progress and their teams need
all the help they can get to be competitive.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah, feeling under Jochma I don't see it changing. He's
obviously there till the end of the year. Then Liscus
comes in. Maybe Liscus will be more of a globalist
and look to go to every corner of the world
and pick players through and bring them through. But it
sounds like a law that's been dropped. But I don't
expect wholesale changes anytime soon. To the Wallabies, it just
doesn't feel like something. I mean, you look back to
(27:38):
that ghetto time they needed a playmaker, they needed a
Matt Gesso to come into the mix. That law was
created for him. I don't see the same. You know,
maybe apart from Will Skelton that the same need for
you know, opening the gates that there is now no.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
The one big kick in the guts would be someone
like Joseph sue Eli. He's their pin up boy right now.
He was the face of their lines tour. If he
went to Japan or France or wherever and they still
selected him for the Wallabies, well that's a big blow
for Super Rugby. Yeah it is.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, having him in the war Tars has been has
been immense with them. Although I saw that Buzz Rothfield
from in a Roll through sixty was suggesting that he
may not be at the Wartars next year and may
go elsewhere in Australian Super Rugby. So watch this space.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
He's not seeking a pay bump for it.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Maybe he'll end up at the Hurricanes or the Crusaders
or somewhere all the Highlanders, you know Jamie josephs on
the recruitment drivers who touched on the top of the episode.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
Maybe oh, they can select from New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
So straight out of bond Die down to Sint Clea Beach.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
Get him over, Jamie ill improve his game.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
That's right before we go on Rugby Direct Kenny Lynn,
one of the cult heroes of the NPC and Super Rugby.
What a decade ago, maybe a little bit longer, close
to fifteen years ago. Now on the Argentina coaching staff
as the attack coach and Liam you caught up with
Kenny Lynn and got the lowdown on the Argentinians.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
I did the Southern Man by way of Leon back
to the Landers and was joined the Plumas in June
last year, so I was in the coaching box for
their upset triumph over the All Blacks and Wellington and yeah,
interesting to see what he can bring to them in
the Ragpiya Championship.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Let's ever listen to that now before we go on
rapid director.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
What's it been like? I guess some different culture, different
rugby environment, but to be immersed in the you know,
an international team, pretty pretty great opportunity.
Speaker 5 (29:30):
Yeah, yeah, great opportunity.
Speaker 6 (29:31):
Always always thought it would be amazing a coach international,
had never really thought that would be that would be
an option RGY. But it's been great, I.
Speaker 5 (29:43):
Mean, very different and that it's such a unique set up.
Speaker 6 (29:50):
Vast majority of the team playing Europe but then come
back and then join up for the RG and then,
so you've kind of got Northern Hemansphere based club club
players but then play in Southern Hemisphere Ragbory Championship and international.
Speaker 5 (30:03):
But it's great. Like I I knew.
Speaker 6 (30:07):
One of the other coaches, Fernandez Lobbe a little bit
because I did my top coaching stufficate in France and
we were two of the only foreigners on that on
the course one year, so I met him that ways,
he's a good lad and Felipe Contempory, head coaches, is
really really great man to work with as well, so
(30:27):
that certainly made it, you know, enjoyable, and yeah, they're
a good crew, they're good people, and I especially thought
with Argentina, I feel like Argentina in a lot of
ways almost sometimes can be run second favorite team and
that have had that underdog status in the past, but
(30:50):
capable of.
Speaker 5 (30:51):
Pulling off big performances and player kind of style of
rugby you enjoy.
Speaker 6 (30:56):
So I really wanted to get a part of that
and see what I could do to keep growing it,
and thought as well, there's a fear bit opportunity there
and that the team age wise, they're pretty a lot
of twenty five, six twenty seven year olds who have
played together a lot, especially for the Jeduaries, so I
thought there was potential there as well to keep improving.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
And your role specifically is a tech coach.
Speaker 5 (31:23):
Yeah, side to attack and backs.
Speaker 6 (31:26):
But there's just four coaches, so we share a fair
amount and what we do, like we cross over and
like Felipay's obviously head coach and does the defense, but
has got a good attacking mind as well, so we
share a few bit of what we're doing.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
But yeah, that is mate for wrong.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
How would you describe your philosophy? I guess broaderly and
I guess agent seen in the Poomas. I've got a
bit of a blended game, don't they. They obviously a
pretty big pack, great at the breakdown, but can really
move the ball, great athletes offload, look to play at pace.
So does that sort of align with how you see
(32:07):
the game, Yeah, very much. So, like.
Speaker 6 (32:11):
There's a there's certainly an element of unstructured play that
the the Argentinians really enjoy and seem to thrive off,
which is that playing fast, keeping it alive, running hard
into space.
Speaker 5 (32:29):
And so it's kind of like harnessing that.
Speaker 6 (32:33):
Really big on the guys being brave and I guess
freeing them up so that they can they feel like
they can go out there.
Speaker 5 (32:40):
On the on the game day and and have a crack.
Speaker 6 (32:44):
So I guess that's it's that mix between giving them
detail which you need an international game to break down defenses,
understanding how we play and their roles, but also getting
them into that stage where they just feel like that
they can look up and play what he was in
front of them and get that good Argentinian flear which
can which can come out. Yeah, we're working a lot
(33:07):
as well and how we can I guess a good
thing about the team is that they're capable of, I
guess emotionally really getting up. But what we're really working
on as well as making sure that we can get
that right balance between being in that right head space
for emotionally you're right up to rip right in, but
(33:27):
not letting it maybe go over where it can lead
to discipline or eras or that kind of thing. So yeah,
that's a big thing that we're focusing on as a
staff as well.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
So you came in June last year, I guess you
know there's been some big results the British and Irish
lines being the spring box the Wallabies and of course
the All Blacks and Wellington.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
What what was it like.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Being on the other side of the fence for that result.
Speaker 6 (33:59):
Yeah, well it was amazing to be a part of
because yeah, like it's that's a huge result all last year.
I think what we got those results were through real
consistency of preparation and Felipe's done really well and establishing
(34:19):
really really good core values within the group and how
we behave and stuff, and I think that's what helped us.
Speaker 5 (34:25):
I just have that season last year, certainly.
Speaker 6 (34:30):
A little bit different being a key we coaching against
the All Blacks, but it was it was probably only
probably felt the most strangers from the lead up to
the game, and then once you're into it, yes you're
rolling on with the Pomas and doing everything I can
for them to.
Speaker 5 (34:44):
Perform and win. So yeah, it felt great.
Speaker 6 (34:48):
And then it was really good to back that up
and be able to beat the spring Box and have
we had a really good performance against Aussie over there
where we had a record score against them. But again
for us, like our next level for our growth is
to be able to do that again and then also
back it up game after game, because we did have
ups and downs. You know, each time we did beat
the top guys, we lost the next game. But that
(35:12):
Lions game was really really good, Like, we were really
happy with that. We only had five days to get
together as a group and you know, we all got
to go over in Dublin and it's a big event
the Lions, you know. But I was happy that we
started that season like that and the type of rugby
we played as well as exactly what we've been working on,
really good, positive and scoring good tries.
Speaker 5 (35:31):
But yeah, that was good.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
What do you think it would mean to them? You know,
they're not off for various firsts and recent times. What
do you think it would mean to beat your blacks
on home saw for the first time?
Speaker 5 (35:45):
I would be huge. I think.
Speaker 6 (35:49):
Rugby and Argentina is in an interesting spot whereas there
was a rocky period probably five or six years ago,
and now it's really in a moving in a positive direction.
Speaker 5 (36:00):
Like amateur rugby, which is the bulk.
Speaker 6 (36:04):
Of that in Argentina is thriving, like the club scene
there is awesome, and I think what we did last year,
hopefully the style of play we're trying to bring in,
which is real positive and fast and open. We'll keep
growing that energy and so to beat a team like
the All Blacks at home would be would be huge.
(36:25):
It would be huge to kind of, I guess back
up what we did last year and solidify what we're
trying to achieve, you know, as specially as we built
in these next few years. So made it would be huge.
It'll be huge for the country and it would be
huge for the team.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
That it'll do us for Rugby Direct looking forward to
kick off nineteen someday morning, the All Blacks in Argentina
in Cordoba and Ligham look forward to hearing all about
your adventures in Cordoba and beyond when we catch up
next week.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yes, indeed, La, I need to return the favor you
brought me home a we melback last year, so it'd
be rude if I didn't.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
Do the same.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
I look forward to receiving that on your return. We
all catch up with Liam next week on Rugby Director
thanks to Lars and bars Englishee. Next time, I'm on
right B Direct thanks to Forklift Solutions, lifting you and
your business to a higher level.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
For more from news talks at b listen live on
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You're listening to a podcast from News Talks ed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Strike Down the Middle.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Of Dry, Dicky Scy try.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Get inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct
with Elliot Smith and Leam Napier powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome into Rugby Direct powered by Forklift Solutions. Back again
as we count down to the first test of the
Rugby Championship. First weekend of the Rugby Championship and from
a New Zealand perspective, the All Blacks in action against
Argentina ten past nine on Sunday morning in called Dobe.
You can hear it live on News Talks ab Gold
(00:57):
Sport and iHeartRadio. But before we get into that big
welcome into Liam Napier as always, greetings, great to be
here earlier yep, and we counting down obviously to that
test mat for some big news in the back end
of last week that Richie Muwong is returning to New
Zealand rugby in more eleven months time July twenty twenty
six through to December twenty twenty seven. I mean this
(01:21):
has been in the background for quite some time. Even
since he left. Basically it was trying to get him
back to New Zealand Rugby. They finally managed to get
his signature on the line for an eighteen month deal.
It means he'll play at the twenty twenty seven Rugby
World Cup, if selected and if fit. I guess your
reaction to that news.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
First and foremost, it's not a surprise, as Elliott, I
think it was always a case of when, not if
Richie Muwanga would return home. It's probably a year later
than everyone anticipated.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Certainly there was a.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Widespread expectation that he would cut short that deal that
didn't eventuate. New Zealand Rugby ends Toshiba couldn't agree financial terms,
but he is coming home eighteen months. It's an interesting
length of contract. I guess it's does mean he's eligible
for the World Cup, as you mentioned, but it's a
(02:16):
bit of a hit and run mission, isn't It allows
him to potentially go back to Japan and kash and
again there and it's going to be a very interesting
dynamic for Scott Robinson to manage because Boden Barrett is
taking a claim as the All Blacks starting first choice.
Ten Damien McKenzie is there. You've got Reuben Love and
(02:40):
Stephen Peter Fetter and behind them. But Rich mu Wonga
is a world class ten. We haven't seen him on
the international stage for a couple of years, but Robinson
has always wanted him, hasn't he And now he will
get him back. How does he manage that scenario?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Well, I has been looking in the background and you know,
Boden Barrett and Damien McKenzie aren't stupid. They would know
that this was a likely possibility for twenty twenty seven
and that's you know, it's not really a surprise. I
don't think, you know, they can't have been thinking that
this is going to be straightforward that they're the one
two for the World Cup. Yup, There's going to be
(03:17):
some things to manage, but perhaps no more than other players.
It's just been a higher profile inclusion. And you know,
Boden Barrett himself has come back from playing in Japan,
hasn't missed much All Black rugby because of that. But
you know t J. Petinara has come back in There's
been precedent before and at some point later in the
year lestifying a Nuoku will come back in. So it's
(03:37):
because I think the ten is such a pervotal role
that everyone goes house is going to be balanced. But
to this point in time, hard to argue that Barrett
or Mackenzie have gone there. You know, the laydown Missie
option to start at ten for the All Blacks right
through the cycle. Mackenzie had his opportunities last year. Now
Boden Barrett is the first choice in the minds of
(03:59):
that and suspect Richie Wong will get a run next year.
So over the next eighteen months or thereabouts, there's probably
going to be a lot of test matches for these
players to show they wear and by the time you
get to August September whenever it is, twenty twenty seven,
Bill Blacks will have an idea of their pecking order.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yeah, I think Boden Barrett hasn't fully convinced yet, but
he's certainly building a case, isn't he that he has
come again as a test verse five? He is showing
that game control along with the moments of brilliance. But yeah,
I just this's going to be some personalities to manage
(04:37):
and some big selection calls because you bring a guy
like Richie Muwonga an out and out competitor, a world
class player. He's not going to want to sit on
the bench. He's going to want to start. You want
all the best players available for the All Blacks. But yeah,
it's going to be a tricky dynamic for Robertson to
manage because he has invested in Bowden, probably told him
(04:59):
he's his guy. He's told Damien he's right there and
he's going to get his chance. And then suddenly Richie's
back and he's got eighteen months to contest that starting
ten Jersey. So and as you mentioned, there are other
dynamics that play there, listifying and look who could feasibly
push Rikawani out of the first choice squad. So how
(05:22):
Robertson manages those selection dynamics can have a destabilizing effect
on a squad potentially could do.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
But there's no guarantee that by twenty twenty seven McKenzie
and Barretts or more longer for that exactly, for that matter,
in that All Blacks twenty twenty seven squad. You know,
players come in and out of times. You're not guaranteed
in All Blacks Jersey, So you know us you've got
to manage people that are in your squad. But there's
also a requirement to do what's best for the All
Blacks and the All Blacks Jersey. And if that is
(05:52):
selecting Richie Moonger because he's the best available ten in
Robertson's mind, then I think he has to go do it.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
So what what shaped does Muwanga come back in? Because
generally Jordi Barrett's the exception and he tellingly didn't go
to Japan. He went to let Leinster. Muanga has led
to Shepard to back to back League One titles in
Japan and the footage you see of him as they're
(06:18):
still carving up playing well, but most, if not all
players that have come back from Japan take a while
to find their feet. It's a different style of rugby.
It's not at test rugby level. Eighteen months isn't a
huge amount of time and he's not just going to
be starting every game. What sort of form shape do
(06:38):
you expect him to come back in.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Well, two years driving to Shuba and two titles there
is what he's been able to deliver there, and yeah,
it's probably not at the same level of rugby. But
I think the Japanese competition is probably because it's out
of sight, out of mind, doesn't get the perhaps credit
it deserves. It has evolved into a much better competition
than it was five ten years ago. It's a lot tighter,
(07:00):
there's not as many blowouts than there has been before.
So yep, there'll be a major adjustment required from Moong
coming back to New Zealand rugby. But he's been in
the drivers seat and he's led them to two titles,
so he's clearly got that golden touch that has continued
at the Crusaders. There's a lot of factors at played
that are going to have to be managed and whether
he comes back in it and straight for his choice, so
whether he has to go and play some tour games,
(07:20):
whatever it might be, it's gonna be fascinating, as you said,
to see arm folds.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
It is, and there's going to be a number of
comings and goings because next year Antonina Brown, Rico Awani
and Artie Severa or skipping Super Rugby, they will come
back and be available for the All Blacks. But and
then Richie comes back, maybe Shannon Frazell as well, So look,
you get all those guys back on deck at strengthens
(07:45):
the All Blacks, doesn't.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
It It does, indeed a couple of other we but
some pieces doing the rounds and super Rugby. You've got
some whispers or some news to report to us on
Rugby Direct.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Yeah, if he whispers Eliot, it sounds like Angus Tartovel
potentially shifting from the Blues to the Highlanders form All
Blacks been well traveled around the traps. I guess he's
stuck behind. And Josh for Stur is a big mover
at the Blues and offered to hing a fuss. He's
meant to be back next year. That's yet to be confirmed,
(08:15):
but that's what I'm hearing, And apparently the Highland is
making a big play for Josh Jacob. Jacob has contracted
to the Chiefs in twenty twenty six. But for me,
I don't know how what you'll read on this is,
but he's a wasted talent at the Chiefs. He's barely
had many starts playing back up to McKenzie. The Hearland
is a crying out for a ten. Jacob's got a
(08:38):
young family. But in my mind it was a wrong decision,
or however you want to describe it, to turn down
the Crusaders when they approached him a couple of years ago.
He could have had opportunities there. You need to be
playing rugby. He's started a lot for the All Blacks fifteen,
so he's on that radar, but his talents, his progression
(08:59):
has stagnated. So Brady McAllister moved from the Crusaders to
the Chiefs.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
And he had a year to go on his contract
is where he got a early release from the Crusaders.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
It's not common, but it's not without precedent, and it
is good to be talking about these sort of stories
because super rogue we tends to die out of season,
so interesting to see where those guys end up. But
Heland is clearly on a big recruitment drive, having signed
David Kibwa, was defense coach. Jamie Joseph is expected to
lead their All Blacks fifteen. So could get in Jacob's
(09:31):
ear and try and convince him could do.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
And I'm also hearing Olie mathis poised to sign for
the Crusaders. I know he's been asked about it in
recent weeks and has sort of played it down, but
my understanding is that he will be at the Crusaders. Well,
one of the young, real young talents of New Zealand rugby.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Very promising, undoubtedly shining again for Wakatur the other nights,
broad range of skills. Doesn't he for a loose forwards? Yeah?
I think those in Chiefs country would be pretty pretty
pissed about that.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
But a good get for the Casaders.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah, and the Crusade mean the Chiefs have now got
to get another loose FORWD in the All Blacks and
the form Simon Parker, so it's pathway a little bit
blocked the end, although he could play out on the wing,
which we'll send him to for White Cut. So let's
get into the Rugby Championship with the All Blacks playing
Argentina first up. Obviously, the squad was named last week
for there's tour and a large squad for the tour.
(10:24):
I guess if you compare it to quote unquote the
top team that started the French series and say that
they say Wellington and that first test in Dunedin, do
we expect many changes or does it matter of say,
you know, the players like Scott Barrett coming back into
the second row, you know Wallace a t t at
number eight, Those sort of things for this test and
(10:45):
first test in called over well.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
I think first and foremost this will be the All
Black's first choice team. They're not going to take any
chances with the Pumas that lost to them and Wellington
last year will still firmly sticking the clare and that
won't allow the Pumas that the elements of surprise that
they had maybe the All Blacks underestimated of them, maybe
though caught by a surprise. That certainly won't be the
(11:07):
case into Argentina for two games over there, So it
will be the All Blacks' best available team. And with
that and minds, you know you'd expect if Wallace is fit,
he probably comes back in and starts, doesn't he And
the same for Scott Barrett Well.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I think it's a straightforward thing, isn't it. You know
Leo Will he's not there, so Tidi comes back in,
assuming he's good to go at number eight. It's the
path of least resistance. You don't have to tweak too
many things. That's assuming he's poised to get through eighty minutes,
I guess is the one question that would be there
around it. But if he's in the squad good to go.
Then I'd say Wallace a TDI comes in the half
(11:43):
back is fascinating. Now, of course he's right Tomid. Does
he just elevate himself to nine or is there actually
a little bit of a conversation to be had there?
Speaker 3 (11:51):
No, I think Courtez comes in at nine. Finlay hasn't
been around that group, and Preston probably still has a
bit of time to get up to speeds his first
time in the All Blacks can be but players can
get a bit overall by that, So I think Courtez
comes into art there. What's the most contestable role? We
(12:13):
know the first choice the incumbents Tomighty Williams isn't available
for the first Test. Sounds like you'll come back for
the seconds. What do you see is the most contestable
probably to provide a six the midfields. Does Billy Proctor
get another gut center?
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I think Billy Procter does go. I mean, I think
those roles are contestable over time. Maybe not so much
for this Test match as a one off for and
you know, just singling it out, but I think over
time those jerseys are still contestable. In terms of blind
soide flanker. In terms of center, Billy Proctor had two tests.
I would have liked to see him get a third
in that series. He didn't. I suspect he's still at
this point in time the first choice in the All Blacks. Minds.
(12:51):
We had Scott Hansen say during the week that it's
not other run as possibility. We might see Rico Yuani
go back and descend it, but he's been included as
an outside back and in this squad as well, So yeah,
I'd go Billy Proctor at thirteen outside Jordi Barrett feels
like the most natural combine nation that they've got there,
and just hope that that Test rugby clicks for Billy
(13:14):
proped to because it probably hasn't to this point.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Yeah, I thought he was. He got better as that
series war on. In Wellington. I thought he played well
on both sides of the ball, particularly in the second half,
but hasn't looked as good as he did in Super
rugby and just needs that more time, I think. Just
note that Simon Parker is being playing NPC this weekend
so clearly won't be included in that. In that first
(13:40):
test squads, he was the notable inclusion in the All
Black s Rugby Championship mix. And there's a couple of others.
Aren't there playing the MPC this weekend? Yeah there are
last weekend yep, so interesting see how they come through that.
Trying to think off Tom Ofhead who exactly they are,
But yeah, the players are playing an MPC of the weekend,
just being mon't be playing the first test, and it's
(14:02):
just it's a nightmare to get to Argentina. It takes
about seventy two hours, not that much, but they weren't
playing in that first test.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
No wings.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Do you expect Rico and severice very contestable spots on
the wing?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
But I do, Yeah, I think for this first test
match and if they win in Cordo. But it doesn't
give them a license necessarily because Argentina are a very
very tough team and often better when they've had you know,
one game and can can see the team. I suspect,
you know, suspect that probably that may give them a
little bit of license to look at it in Atawa
(14:37):
or even the Leroy Carter for the second test of
this trip. But I would be very surprised if anything
other than the incumbents and by using incumbents and Inta
combas Rico, Uani and Severice get the nod there and
then Will Jordan at fullback. So that's the team that
I would pick. Feels relatively straightforward to this point.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Yeah, front row tyro a Lomax out, so Fletch Newell
probably comes in there. What about Lucid with to Mighty
Williams still one week away from coming back.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I think to Grout starts there. You know, I thought
he built over that series. He's still, in my mind,
not delivering what the All Blacks would like him to.
I don't think that the passing game comes natural to
ethan degree that the All Blacks are clearly attacking in
that shape now and asking their props to do a
(15:26):
little little bit more handling of the ball and setting
up the back line as well, just in some of
the carries they're doing. So I can't see them going
against the grain for that one. But again, the second Test,
if the All Blacks won the first one, could be
interesting because you still have a week off in between
the Second Test and Buenos Aire's and coming home for
(15:47):
that game at Eden Park. But they may just look
to get some players on ice get to Mighty Williams
and the team and.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Change a few things up.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
If we take a step back and look at the
Rugby Championship as a whole, what's the successful tournament for
the All Blacks that they didn't want it last year,
lost those two games in South Africa. They've never in
history not won the Rugby Championship too in a row.
Is it as simple as when the title or bust?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I think it is this year because they have the
softer Rugby Championship draw that you would get and I
use this with the greatest subspect to Argentina, but they're
still searching for that first one on home soil and
until that comes in, it will be seen as a
softer trip having two games in Argentina rather than the
two in South Africa under the format that the Rugby
(16:32):
Championship now operates, so when you've got South Africa twice
at home, it's easy than playing them at Alice Park
and playing them in Cape Town wherever it might be.
So I think this year it's win or bust for
Scott Robertson and his team, and the All Blacks have
never not won at two years in a row, so
there's an expectation that they'll bounce back. South Africa's gonna
(16:54):
be all mightily tough when they come to Eden Park
and to Sky Stadium in a few weeks time. But
I think that they have to go out and win
it otherwise it can't be deemed a successful campaign.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
What's the you, Yeah, I think there should write be
an expectation that the All Blacks reclaim the Rugby Championship.
If you remove the title, I think going one on
one with the spring Box would be acceptable, Probably less
so if that loss comes at Eden Park, just because
of the historical significance and everything that's gone before. The
(17:29):
All Blacks always talk about the history, the legacy and
they will be desperate to uphold that. That matches, in
my mind, the most important Test match this year, and
the spring Box will be gunning for it. But just
because of where the Springboks are at, I think there
does need to be a bit of context about them
being world champions. The depth are built their record over
(17:51):
the past few years.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
But yeah, the All Blacks are on home soil.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
There on home soil and they've got a record that
they you know, winning is you know what they're expected
to do it's the key to their commercial success. So
you've got to win these big games when they come along.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
They do and so reclaim the title. But as far
from straightforward.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
All right, we'll give me your finishing order then for
the Rugby Championship.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
All right, look, oh, the Box a favorites, but I'll
back the All Blacks to finish top to win the
Rugby Championship. Box second, I'm going to say the Pumas
finish third and the Wallaby's fourth. I think the lines
tour will actually take a bit of a toll on
them by the end, and they'll be missing a few
(18:37):
of those key guys like Skelton. I think he may
be available for the opening Rugby Championship game against the Box,
but then we'll go back to France and yeah, I
just feel like the Wallabies may run out of depth
and a bit of steam.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah. I kind of feel the same way. It's going
to be a long six games by the time they
get to Perth for that final game against the All Blacks,
I will probably Yeah, I'm going to go South Africa
finish top. I think they'll split one one in New
Zealand and some of the other results will conspire to
to get them to the top. The All Blacks will
just narrowly miss out and maybe you know, in seven
(19:13):
eight weeks time we're reviewing it as a good campaign,
but not a great one from the All Blacks. And third,
I think probably the Wallabies just to buy the basis
that well they've got the Poombers twice at home. I
think they should beat the Poomers twice at home, although
the last time the Pumas are there from memory they'll
drop one of them. So it is set up as
an interesting Rugby Championship, isn't it. And there's a lot
(19:34):
of questions around the Rugby Championships future. We've got the
rugby's greatest rivalry coming in next year, still to be
officially confirmed, but it is happening. Three tests against the
spring Box. The All Blacks will go over the year.
It'll return in twenty thirty. So the Rugby Championships in
an interesting place, isn't it? Because this year it's the
full format. We won't see the full format again until
(19:55):
twenty twenty eight. Given twenty twenty seven is a Rugby
World Cup year, it's truncated so and then after that
you know it's pushed back a little bit because the
Lion's coming to New Zealand. If unless Stephen Jones has
his way and they go and play in France, then
it's South Africa coming here for three tests. So is
that an interesting juncture the Rugby Championship And I guess
(20:16):
if you're the All Blacks and New Zealand Rugby and
Sansar as a whole kind of needs to have a
bit of a stake in the ground as to what
the Rugby Championship actually is and where it goes to
from here.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Yeah, it was so to simplify that it's the full
version once every four years, and that's not totally their
Sansar is doing or the Southern Hemisphere because of that
World Cup year as you mentioned. But I think the
less you have of something, the more you the more, the.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
Less prestige it has.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
And there's an argument for me that the Rugby Championship
is the toughest regular tournament in the world. I think
because of the travel for one, and because of the
fact that the All Blacks and Springboks are in the
six nations. Is competitive. But Wales have fallen off a cliff.
Italy a getting better, but they are too reasonable, wind
(21:15):
banking games in the Six Nations. It's got great traveling fans,
but I think I think the Rugby Championship in my mind,
is actually harder to win, but it does lose significance
and prestige when it's out of sight, out of mind.
And if you're the Wallabies, I'm a huge fan of
bringing back these South African tours. That's going to be
(21:36):
massive in a rugby sphere for those countries. But if
you're the Wallabies or Poomas, you're sort of left out
in the cold for two years, aren't you.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
You are.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
And clearly in zid Are and South African rugby have
gone bug of that. Don't worry about them. We will
push on with what we want to do and that's
the right. But it does leave them out in the cold.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
And there are negotiations compensation agreements to be agreed being
negotiated currently behind closed doors between New Zealand Rugby and
Rugby Australia.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
Because of that.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
What I would say is though in terms of this
Rugby Championship, it's never the tournament itself, always feels like
a little bit of an afterthought to the little two
match series that play out in between, and you know,
most people looking forward to the you know, the spring
box in the middle of it, those two tests in there,
you know they're going to go on on to two
Tests tour to Argentina and then obviously the Bledderso carp
(22:33):
at the end. This is from a New Zealand perspective obviously,
but it feels like almost those little two match tours
feel more important than the points table at the end
of the Rugby Championship. And maybe that's where it's got
to because you know, I take your point around the
competitiveness and that things like that, but it doesn't have
the same prestige in terms of winning the Six Nations
winning the Rugby Championship in my mind.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
No, I agree, because it doesn't have the historical significance.
It doesn't have the traveling fans and the same intense
passionate following. Yeah, and you're right. I think since the
four went to those two match towards, it did become
more about those mini face offs than previously where it
(23:16):
was one off match against South Africa, then Australia and
the Pumas and sort of doing the round. So yeah,
rugby evolves doesn't it, And that's the greatest rivalry between
the Orblex and spring Box is going to be massive
once every four years. So I'm not going to sit
here and say they've got it wrong. But I think
the Ruby Championship over time that the prestige of it
(23:39):
winning it has been slowly eroded.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, and I think that the two match series probably
as you said, have contributed to that. And it feels
like the Ruby Championships are just sort of a bucket
to have these fixtures in rather than a trophy that
means a lot. And you know, your mileage and your
point of view may vary on that if you're listening,
but it does feel that, yeah, maybe these tweaks it
(24:02):
might not be the best thing for its long term health.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Yeah. I think it did mean a lot to the
spring Box last year because it was the first time
that'd on it in a long time. Neil Black's held
an ironclad grip on it, so it meant a lot
to them then, But it would probably mean less to
them this year if they want to.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, and look, if your Black beats at Africa to nil,
what are you most a mirror of the year. The
fact that beats to Africa to nil, or the fact
that they won the Rugby Championship.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Yeah, you could argue the Freedom Cup holds prior to
place over the Rugby Championship quite.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Possibly, and then that was big for South Africa as
well getting it back last year as well a few
other matters to touch on this week in terms of
the Rugby World Australia confirming the Ghetto Law has been axed.
I think it was about a year ago. Actually they
managed to sort of sweep that through, but it's finally
come to public conscience now.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fares, Every.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Tri drive a sixty severy tackle, tack tackles, get up again.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
Before it's Rugby Direct.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Ladies talks one of the great names of the law,
the Ghetto Law, when it came in in twenty fifteen
for that Rugby World Cup with Michael Chicker and co.
Feels like it's probably served its time from an Australian
perspective though, I mean this is by the sound of
it been in place for about a year and Joe
Schmidt hasn't gone balls to the war wall and picked
(25:27):
through France and England and Japan. To pick all the
possible overseas players he can. So while the law has gone,
certainly from Joe Schmidt's perspective, it doesn't feel like he's
just going to go and look overseas and Super Rugby
be damned.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
So I guess the getto law was brought in the
twenty fifteen World Cup for when Michael Chicker was coached,
so they could select Ghetto and Drew Mitchell and maybe
a couple of others, and it has evolved over time.
The Wallabies in recent times have had some with Karev,
Marika Cotta, Betty will Skelton. I think they picked Kwake Cooper,
(26:06):
maybe a couple of others and whatnot. But honestly, I
don't see it having a drastic effect because well, at
least while Joe Schmitt's there, because he has prioritized selecting domestically,
and I think the caveat or the expectation is if
(26:27):
there's a fifty to fifty decision, they will select local.
And the other reality is there's actually not that many
spots in the global game open now in Japan or
France or the UK or wherever it is. You have
to be quite an elite player to get those and
it's not you know that the financial landscape recruiting is
(26:47):
not what it used to be. So yeah, maybe we
see a few more top line Australian players shoot offshore
and the rather than the test game. The big impact
could come at super rugby level, right Like Australia are
just starting to improve in the demise of the Melbourne Rebels.
If you take a few key guys out of those teams,
(27:10):
that could really affect their progress and their teams need
all the help they can get to be competitive.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah, feeling under Jochma I don't see it changing. He's
obviously there till the end of the year. Then Liscus
comes in. Maybe Liscus will be more of a globalist
and look to go to every corner of the world
and pick players through and bring them through. But it
sounds like a law that's been dropped. But I don't
expect wholesale changes anytime soon. To the Wallabies, it just
doesn't feel like something. I mean, you look back to
(27:38):
that ghetto time they needed a playmaker, they needed a
Matt Gesso to come into the mix. That law was
created for him. I don't see the same. You know,
maybe apart from Will Skelton that the same need for
you know, opening the gates that there is now no.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
The one big kick in the guts would be someone
like Joseph sue Eli. He's their pin up boy right now.
He was the face of their lines tour. If he
went to Japan or France or wherever and they still
selected him for the Wallabies, well that's a big blow
for Super Rugby. Yeah it is.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, having him in the war Tars has been has
been immense with them. Although I saw that Buzz Rothfield
from in a Roll through sixty was suggesting that he
may not be at the Wartars next year and may
go elsewhere in Australian Super Rugby. So watch this space.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
He's not seeking a pay bump for it.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Maybe he'll end up at the Hurricanes or the Crusaders
or somewhere all the Highlanders, you know Jamie josephs on
the recruitment drivers who touched on the top of the episode.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
Maybe oh, they can select from New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
So straight out of bond Die down to Sint Clea Beach.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
Get him over, Jamie ill improve his game.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
That's right before we go on Rugby Direct Kenny Lynn,
one of the cult heroes of the NPC and Super Rugby.
What a decade ago, maybe a little bit longer, close
to fifteen years ago. Now on the Argentina coaching staff
as the attack coach and Liam you caught up with
Kenny Lynn and got the lowdown on the Argentinians.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
I did the Southern Man by way of Leon back
to the Landers and was joined the Plumas in June
last year, so I was in the coaching box for
their upset triumph over the All Blacks and Wellington and yeah,
interesting to see what he can bring to them in
the Ragpiya Championship.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Let's ever listen to that now before we go on
rapid director.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
What's it been like? I guess some different culture, different
rugby environment, but to be immersed in the you know,
an international team, pretty pretty great opportunity.
Speaker 5 (29:30):
Yeah, yeah, great opportunity.
Speaker 6 (29:31):
Always always thought it would be amazing a coach international,
had never really thought that would be that would be
an option RGY. But it's been great, I.
Speaker 5 (29:43):
Mean, very different and that it's such a unique set up.
Speaker 6 (29:50):
Vast majority of the team playing Europe but then come
back and then join up for the RG and then,
so you've kind of got Northern Hemansphere based club club
players but then play in Southern Hemisphere Ragbory Championship and international.
Speaker 5 (30:03):
But it's great. Like I I knew.
Speaker 6 (30:07):
One of the other coaches, Fernandez Lobbe a little bit
because I did my top coaching stufficate in France and
we were two of the only foreigners on that on
the course one year, so I met him that ways,
he's a good lad and Felipe Contempory, head coaches, is
really really great man to work with as well, so
(30:27):
that certainly made it, you know, enjoyable, and yeah, they're
a good crew, they're good people, and I especially thought
with Argentina, I feel like Argentina in a lot of
ways almost sometimes can be run second favorite team and
that have had that underdog status in the past, but
(30:50):
capable of.
Speaker 5 (30:51):
Pulling off big performances and player kind of style of
rugby you enjoy.
Speaker 6 (30:56):
So I really wanted to get a part of that
and see what I could do to keep growing it,
and thought as well, there's a fear bit opportunity there
and that the team age wise, they're pretty a lot
of twenty five, six twenty seven year olds who have
played together a lot, especially for the Jeduaries, so I
thought there was potential there as well to keep improving.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
And your role specifically is a tech coach.
Speaker 5 (31:23):
Yeah, side to attack and backs.
Speaker 6 (31:26):
But there's just four coaches, so we share a fair
amount and what we do, like we cross over and
like Felipay's obviously head coach and does the defense, but
has got a good attacking mind as well, so we
share a few bit of what we're doing.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
But yeah, that is mate for wrong.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
How would you describe your philosophy? I guess broaderly and
I guess agent seen in the Poomas. I've got a
bit of a blended game, don't they. They obviously a
pretty big pack, great at the breakdown, but can really
move the ball, great athletes offload, look to play at pace.
So does that sort of align with how you see
(32:07):
the game, Yeah, very much. So, like.
Speaker 6 (32:11):
There's a there's certainly an element of unstructured play that
the the Argentinians really enjoy and seem to thrive off,
which is that playing fast, keeping it alive, running hard
into space.
Speaker 5 (32:29):
And so it's kind of like harnessing that.
Speaker 6 (32:33):
Really big on the guys being brave and I guess
freeing them up so that they can they feel like
they can go out there.
Speaker 5 (32:40):
On the on the game day and and have a crack.
Speaker 6 (32:44):
So I guess that's it's that mix between giving them
detail which you need an international game to break down defenses,
understanding how we play and their roles, but also getting
them into that stage where they just feel like that
they can look up and play what he was in
front of them and get that good Argentinian flear which
can which can come out. Yeah, we're working a lot
(33:07):
as well and how we can I guess a good
thing about the team is that they're capable of, I
guess emotionally really getting up. But what we're really working
on as well as making sure that we can get
that right balance between being in that right head space
for emotionally you're right up to rip right in, but
(33:27):
not letting it maybe go over where it can lead
to discipline or eras or that kind of thing. So yeah,
that's a big thing that we're focusing on as a
staff as well.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
So you came in June last year, I guess you
know there's been some big results the British and Irish
lines being the spring box the Wallabies and of course
the All Blacks and Wellington.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
What what was it like.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Being on the other side of the fence for that result.
Speaker 6 (33:59):
Yeah, well it was amazing to be a part of
because yeah, like it's that's a huge result all last year.
I think what we got those results were through real
consistency of preparation and Felipe's done really well and establishing
(34:19):
really really good core values within the group and how
we behave and stuff, and I think that's what helped us.
Speaker 5 (34:25):
I just have that season last year, certainly.
Speaker 6 (34:30):
A little bit different being a key we coaching against
the All Blacks, but it was it was probably only
probably felt the most strangers from the lead up to
the game, and then once you're into it, yes you're
rolling on with the Pomas and doing everything I can
for them to.
Speaker 5 (34:44):
Perform and win. So yeah, it felt great.
Speaker 6 (34:48):
And then it was really good to back that up
and be able to beat the spring Box and have
we had a really good performance against Aussie over there
where we had a record score against them. But again
for us, like our next level for our growth is
to be able to do that again and then also
back it up game after game, because we did have
ups and downs. You know, each time we did beat
the top guys, we lost the next game. But that
(35:12):
Lions game was really really good, Like, we were really
happy with that. We only had five days to get
together as a group and you know, we all got
to go over in Dublin and it's a big event
the Lions, you know. But I was happy that we
started that season like that and the type of rugby
we played as well as exactly what we've been working on,
really good, positive and scoring good tries.
Speaker 5 (35:31):
But yeah, that was good.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
What do you think it would mean to them? You know,
they're not off for various firsts and recent times. What
do you think it would mean to beat your blacks
on home saw for the first time?
Speaker 5 (35:45):
I would be huge. I think.
Speaker 6 (35:49):
Rugby and Argentina is in an interesting spot whereas there
was a rocky period probably five or six years ago,
and now it's really in a moving in a positive direction.
Speaker 5 (36:00):
Like amateur rugby, which is the bulk.
Speaker 6 (36:04):
Of that in Argentina is thriving, like the club scene
there is awesome, and I think what we did last year,
hopefully the style of play we're trying to bring in,
which is real positive and fast and open. We'll keep
growing that energy and so to beat a team like
the All Blacks at home would be would be huge.
(36:25):
It would be huge to kind of, I guess back
up what we did last year and solidify what we're
trying to achieve, you know, as specially as we built
in these next few years. So made it would be huge.
It'll be huge for the country and it would be
huge for the team.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
That it'll do us for Rugby Direct looking forward to
kick off nineteen someday morning, the All Blacks in Argentina
in Cordoba and Ligham look forward to hearing all about
your adventures in Cordoba and beyond when we catch up
next week.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yes, indeed, La, I need to return the favor you
brought me home a we melback last year, so it'd
be rude if I didn't.
Speaker 4 (37:00):
Do the same.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
I look forward to receiving that on your return. We
all catch up with Liam next week on Rugby Director
thanks to Lars and bars Englishee. Next time, I'm on
right B Direct thanks to Forklift Solutions, lifting you and
your business to a higher level.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
For more from news talks at b listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio,
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