March 17, 2025 • 49 mins
On this special episode of Rugby Direct, Elliott Smith and Liam Napier are joined by NZR CEO Mark Robinson and All Blacks head coach Scott 'Razor' Robertson for an exclusive and extended interview.
They update us on all the big rugby issues and state of the game, including their stance on eligibility, broadcast and sponsorship, the upcoming international rugby calendar and what success looks like in 2025. Plus, what talent are catching their eyes in Super Rugby.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
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Inside the Game from every angle.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
It's Rugby Direct with Elliott Smith powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Welcome into Rugby Direct powered by Habit Heath, tackling all
your ax and pains from sports and work. A special
bonus edition of Rugby Direct with two great guests that
we were lucky enough to have for an extended interview. Myself,
Elliott Smith and Liam Napier sat down with New Zealand
Rugby Chief Executive Mark Robinson and All Blacks head coach
(00:46):
Scott Robertson to discuss plenty of issues across the game
super rugby, the eligibility to make for the All Blacks,
looking back at twenty twenty four, the challenges New Zealand
Rugby faces, and to look ahead to twenty twenty five.
Plenty of issues to discuss right across rugby. It was
great to have Mark Robinson and Scott Robertson join us
(01:06):
on the podcast. I began by asking about their relationship
which has gone all the way back to the nineteen
nineties and the early two thousands, when they played together
at the Crusaders to now as All Blacks head coach
and New Zealand Rugby chief executive.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Well, yeah, we met probably like you say it in
the late nineties. Raised was already in christ Church from memory,
and I'd come home from England. I was studying over
there to Cannaby and the Crusaders, so we sort of
started knocking around back then. And my vivid memories of
Razor back then was obviously aside from a great player,
even back then, you know, he's a carrying a coaching
(01:43):
a playbook around, you know, he was highly engaged in
tactics and the game itself and that sort of thing.
So it was no great surprise I guess as time
has eventuated that he's ended up where he has. Even
then he had a real key in the game and
the technical tactical side me less, So you know, I
was sort of more engaged at that time around things
that were happening around our environment and wider issues around
(02:06):
rugby and that sort of thing. But we said some
great memories, you know, obviously fortunately playing a really successful
era with great coaches and teammates and that sort of thing,
and they probably for a few years where Rose was
off doing his thing and I was and it wasn't
until a little while ago where we sort of started
reconnecting up for obvious reasons. So you know, did things
in France and Japan, and it was in different parts
(02:26):
of the world. So but yeah, I mean once you
played together and spend time together, you always retain a
connection of sorts. And so it's been really neat working
together in the last little while and getting to spend
more time together.
Speaker 5 (02:39):
It's got any good tales and memories from the from
the playing days, pre season, on the field, off the field, let.
Speaker 6 (02:49):
Stay on field. I think we just remember Robert was
a strict rugby player. You know, he knew the game.
He always kept us feeding the tackle, so you always
rang off his shoulder. He always had a little offload
on him. So he said a huge He hasn't scored
too many, but there's a few assists. So yeah, look
(03:09):
we had it was a great times playing and now
you know, the opportunity for us to go back to
the game and our roles and like we said, you
know we've quite wildly been around play love sas and
you come back to and to do a role that
we're doing so patiently and for our for our country's honor.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
What have you made at the start to Super Rugby
twenty twenty five show?
Speaker 6 (03:30):
Yeah, how good. I think everyone's talking about anywhere you go,
just at the quality of football, the skill sets, the
young parts that are coming through teams. Is a bit
of jeopardy, you know, and can win. And I just
think shape of the game. You know that the ball
and play and all around the world is really high.
But Super Rugby has been great to watch and enjoyed
(03:52):
it as from a coaching point of view, section point
of view, but also just as in viewership.
Speaker 7 (03:57):
You know, you really entertained early doors.
Speaker 5 (04:00):
Obviously were four rounds in, but I think you had
ten new or blacks in your first year. Anyone catching
your eye at this early stage.
Speaker 6 (04:08):
Yeah, there is, there always is. Look if I say
any names or you know, that's what I've learned, you
in trouble if you if you make suggestions. But I look,
there's always I think some guys that have had their
first supers or second supers have really stood up. They've
had opportunities, been a couple of injuries they've taken that
(04:30):
you know, they've got regular game time and you know
they're playing playing some feedless footy and because every game
has is tight, you see them under pressure as well
in your and just really enjoying the skill sets and bravery.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Mark we've talked about about the changes to Super Rugby
have the last four or five years. How exciting for
you in your role that Super Rugby has got off
to a hiss and rule this year.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Yeah, I mean there's a lot of things coming to fruition,
aren't there that we've talked about for a little while.
One was, as Raisor said, the shape of the game
and the work we've we've done there, and he and
I are in London recently some of those big global
meetings and really really positive to hear the recognition of
the leadership work we've taken there starting to be a fruit.
So that's that's one great thing. Clearly, the Australian teams
(05:16):
are highly competitive and that's you know, creating jeopardy as
raises mentioned, and real uncertainty and results. And then I
think combined we've seen the Commission be able to stand
up in a ralibly short amount of time. As we've
always said, have a real dedicated focus on the competition,
and in terms of the way it's package, branded, communicated,
(05:37):
there's been some real improvements there. I mean, how good's
fantasy you know, I'm I'm sure you guys are chipping away.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
You raise, I hear you you're in the fantasy's who's
in your team?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (05:51):
Look, we got an email about three days beforehand when
my three sons are at it and chipping away at
me and asking. They said, you need to know how
to do it. Obviously we're doing it.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
Yeah, we're all you know, straight down the line and
all that.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
So it's been really good for the competition though, discussions
and assuming the NRAL in the past, but just being
able to talk about with your colleagues, your friends about
who's in your team, who's out, and I'm sure you
guys have had discussions about it even though you're allowed
to play. Just how it's sort of changed the dynamics
a little bit of the competition.
Speaker 6 (06:24):
I'll give you a high buy. And isn't it You
actually got a bit of skin, isn't it? Because your
back your players and your team and you know you're
looking at your phone watching rugby. It's all of a sudden,
people looking up and checking scores, it's live and just
that that's where our game is. The entertiment tainment partner.
It's just another layer and engaging with people.
Speaker 5 (06:42):
If we're gettingto some some hot topics, eligibility is a
big one. There's been an evolution over time. We all
know that you currently can't select All Blacks from offshore.
Speaker 7 (06:53):
There's the sabbatical options.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
Where do you both sit currently about the eligibility stance
and where do you see it getting too in the
next few years.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Yeah, well, we're really clear as an organization. You know,
been a lot of say, speculation and talk about it,
but through all of that we've been really firm that
it's been a big part of successive New Zealand Rugby
and the All Blacks for some time. It is a
key sort of incentive for players to remain here and
(07:24):
it is something that is also important for the wider
pathways and development of the game here. So look, it's right.
It's an area where there's always probably going to be
you know, a degree of scrutiny as it is for
many yeas of the game. It's great, you know, there's
passion and interest in the game. But for us, we've
been able to for a long period of time, retain
the vast majority of players we've been wanting to retain,
(07:47):
and then obviously in the last little while there's been
as you said, within the policy, there's the tools and
flexibility to be creative where we need to recognize some
of those long term servants that have given so much
to the game and be able to give back while
retaining them, you know, longer term with the All Blacks
and New Zealand Rugby. So overall, you know, we'll always
be open to sort of looking at in the future,
(08:09):
but at the moment we're pretty firm and supportive of it.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Raising you've long them obviously been your one of your
lines has been keep an open mind. Where are you
at at the moment with the eligibility Suga.
Speaker 6 (08:19):
Yeah, Look, I had a first a year, you know,
so I said, I have a year to look at
it and where I stand. And the first thing is,
you know, my intentions for the the comment was is
it fit for purpose? Still? You know currently in this
model where we're sitting, you know, globally and internally, you know,
one of my jobs is to make sure that the
(08:40):
pathways is strong so we can keep it, can do
a flow of quality players enjoy the game and also
want to come through and be professional rugby players and aspiration.
So we'll talk a little bit later on around the
pathway stuff that we're doing. But look, look, I understand
how important is and now I'm probably got more insight
around the flexibility there is. There isn't the current regulations.
(09:05):
You know, it is fit for purpose. There is a
little bit of flexibility there. And I just want to
sort of give you an example an open mind as
someone like a Jordi Barrett. You know, traditionally we've gone
to Japan to play. And when Jordi came and said,
I've got an option for for for Leinster and another
an opportunity, you know, we zoomed and we talked through
(09:26):
all the practicalities. What would what would his season look like?
Going north? Is it going to make him a better player?
You know? And once we'd listened and you know, he
had a majority of the six nations off, he'd had
a break, he'd been well coached. You know, I just
had to catch up with Jack Naber when I was
over there and talked and sat down with him and
(09:48):
just how impressed he was as a as a player
as a man, how hard he worked on and off
the field. That was just incredibly impressed. You know, we
touched base with him. He's an on field coach to Jordy,
so he'd be leaning on and off the field, and
that's a prime example of keeping open mind. Someone like
himself going north. Okay, great, we're in a position now
we'll hear come back as a better player and ultimately
(10:10):
that's what we want out of this. And he's just
one example. You know, potentially more to come.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Do you see see more potentially of those sort of
deals happening in the future.
Speaker 6 (10:19):
Yeah, yeah, look at what's worked. You know, look if
at the essences. You know, we're still keeping the integrity
of all our pathway programs. So a guy doesn't go
away and play. We're picking people from overseas. They've earned
the opportunity, they've been loyal, they've done their time. They
get to go away and then come back. And he'll
come back and you know, he'll be a coach at
(10:40):
the Canes again. As there's a great player player coach
as we know, and other players you know where they
sit in their career, they had that opportunity to as well.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Because you look at South Africa obviously, and they can
pick whoever they want, whenever they want. That wouldn't work
for the all blacks.
Speaker 6 (10:56):
You don't think, well, one sort of thing. I've learned
to talk through it and you look at ther stats
and it suits their model. It suits their model for
them where they currently are, you know, financially, where they sit.
What do we current competitions in their players, so that
there's model for us. We're in great shape. You know,
(11:18):
we've got a great group of low all blacks and
you know, super players that want to be all blacks
and young kids that want to be all blacks and
know that they're playing our country. To get that dead opportunity.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
I mean, we've got to focus guys on what we
think is best for New Zealand. When there's always that's
a beauty of the sport. There's always comparisons and analysis
is the different models. But we fundamentally believe this can
work for New Zealand rugby and we are retaining majority
of players and you know, whilst we might not have
all the resource and all the money compared to some markets,
(11:53):
we're working really hard around environments. You know, great coaching environments,
great competitions got virgin and competitions are going to get
better and better. Grete five year calendar coming up. In
terms of what's possible around rugby in this part of
the world with the Lions tours, the South Africa All
Blacks concept, I mean, we think super rugby is going
to get better and better. So focusing really hard on
will always keep you a little bit on what's going
(12:14):
on around the world, but focusing really hard on what
we're doing as well.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
You mentioned the Jaudy Bearer example. Yes, another one who
you don't have access to. Richid Wonger World Class ten.
You know, I'm well, I think you both. You know,
went up to Japan to meet with him at the
back end of last year. I don't know the nature
of those conversations, but obviously there was a desire to
bring him home early. Why did he not come home
(12:37):
early was as simple as couldn't reach terms with Tashiba
financially or.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
There's a lot of speculations around that last year wasn't
the ELM. So look, I think clearly people understand there
were some conversations through last year, but ultimately, you know,
Richie's made a decision to work through to the obligations
under his contract. You know, we respect that and we're
(13:03):
moving forward. As we say, we're really clear on our
eligibility rules, and you know we certainly always respect players
that have left the All Blacks and are playing off shore.
And there's always a degree of contact. You know that
that happens, but that's good coaches and good good people
doing their jobs probably, and that happens a lot of level.
That happens with players that are very much passed, you know,
(13:25):
their playing careers, and that that's just the nature of
the all Black environment and the All Black family. So hey, look,
you know we're clearly moving forward and got a lot
of belief and the people coming through and the protocols
were gone in place.
Speaker 5 (13:38):
Scott Distill hope Richie will come back next year that
winners contract finishes and push for a place in the
twenty twenty seven World cut.
Speaker 6 (13:47):
Yeah, look, all plays you want me all your best
players available. You know that's what it takes to win
a Rugby World Cup. And you know you keep connected
with all of them, doesn't matter and where they are at,
you know you still get message from from the old
players now and again, chicking in and making sure you know,
Sam Kaine, so there's time, but he's you know, he's
(14:09):
a prime example. You know he checks it and making
sure everything's right in the off season. But yeah, you
just want your best players.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Saw Boden Baron and Damian McKenzie last year have that
ten jersey. How important are they in this next three
years for you as an All Blacks coach?
Speaker 6 (14:25):
Oh critical, Look like I just you know b Mac,
you know what he year that he had gave him
plenty of opportunity, you know, just his ability to control
the game with his boot. You know, I think the
Irish game, how good was that? You know the week
before he came on and kicked the ball from the
selon to England to change the match. And then then
(14:46):
he owned that game against Ireland, you know, and got
picked in the World fifteen as a ten. And you know,
so it's impact off the bench as match management, his
ability to lead the teams to being credible. And you've
got Bone who's just evergreen, just keeps going and so
so classy, just got so much time time. He's a game,
(15:10):
there's a kicking game. Been awesome for US coaches. He's
been great off field. So both of them compliment each
other really well, and because they can pay ten and
fifteen and you know both have grad and pecks off
the bench are really really available to us.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
I think the makes off contract this year. Yeah, you're
going down to the tron and a rasource or something.
Speaker 7 (15:30):
Keep him in for a minute.
Speaker 6 (15:32):
Oh look, you know he's he's a linebreaker. He's got
that special ability to do something others don't, you know,
every intention and work as hard as we possibly can.
And they have a player like him. You know, he's
in that peak of his powers of twenty nine. He's
learned so much, he's mature, and you know for sure
(15:55):
we're on them.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Yeah, Razor, how would you look back at your first
year in charge last year in twenty twenty four. I'm
sure he had a few thoughts about that over summer.
How you look back now where we sit here in March.
Speaker 6 (16:06):
You have plenty of views and more into I look
from a personal point of view and a team point
of view, Like I think, you only learn by doing. Really,
otherwise you're just reading, aren't you until you actually put
your hands to it and your feet toward and you
actually take step forward to the moment. So all the
preparation that I've done coaching before. It got you to
that point, but then it's the people in front of
(16:27):
you and your and your environment and your group and
what that needs. Like so statistically it's like we you know,
made the most line breaks, most of defender's bet and
most off flows and most carries and will rub you.
So it was some incredible stats. You know, we've got
better and better as our game understanding and the calls
and we embedded it through the year, and but we
(16:49):
just didn't quite couldn't finish enough. You know, there was
three games that are one scores. You know they could
have gone each way, you know about to ball risk
all things that's test footy, you know, so finishing a
little bit of execution and a little bit of maybe
game management, and so that's been our focus. But also
(17:11):
with the intent just how much we've created. That's that's
the part that gets us excited. You know, we're aligned
with know how our weeks are. It was a massive
change for all of us, so you know we're in
a good spot.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Do those stats give you confidence that you're on the
right right track, you know obviously, Yeah.
Speaker 6 (17:28):
That's one I mentioned.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Yeah, one of the states that you need to improve
your top top of those worldboard.
Speaker 6 (17:36):
Look in the just thing, it's the tightest internation rugby
is the title has ever been in history. You know,
there's there's one score games. The top eight all can
beat each other, you know. Look, you can look at
Italy and Argentina, you know a couple of scores just recently.
But other than that, on their day, you know a
lot of their players playing the top fourteen, they play together,
they've come through their age groups together, they play in
(18:00):
the same team and their comps, or they're playing for
Toulouse or or been in a top club up in Europe.
So the coach really well, so Test forty as tits
has ever been, you know, and that's a great challenge.
That's why you look at it. You know you're going
to be tested every test match. Tier one's extremely strong.
(18:21):
TI two you know, on the day can come through
install they get everyone available, and that's what normally happens
around World Cups. So just as tough to beat as well.
So yeah, there's there's lots of challenges, but goad opportunities
as well.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fairs.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Every try try ten sixty sec every tackle to tackle,
tackles get up again?
Speaker 6 (18:51):
Are it's rugby direct?
Speaker 7 (18:53):
Ladies talk on a person all of you?
Speaker 5 (18:56):
Ovious said seven years with the Crusader's unrivaled success. From
I guess a pure coaching point of view, how different
was it Super rugby to international?
Speaker 7 (19:05):
How you prepare your week? The intensity of it?
Speaker 5 (19:08):
You know, I guess Super rugby is more of a
campaign where Test rugby is very week to week.
Speaker 7 (19:14):
How different was it?
Speaker 6 (19:15):
Yeah? Look, the thing is because we came in, everything
was new and new, change of calls and new stuff
and everything. It took a while to know just when
you embied something. When you learn, like just instinctively you
move before the call. You know, it takes time to
listen to a call. What is our call? Where we're
going to go? And if someone just yells out blast
(19:36):
or whatever the word is, where do they have to be?
And it took us a couple of even though the
moving before it's actually been said, because they're instinctively understanding
where to go. So it took us that period of
time to go and during our weeks, you know, getting
the balance of the week, the intensity, you know, we're
away one hundred and twenty days, twenty one she's on.
So how do you get the balance of the week.
(19:57):
You spend a lot of time with your leaders, you know,
making sure you're managing get the best out of them.
They energy levels high, but you're still giving them what
they need. From a rugby point of view, and culturally.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
The theming elements a big part of you and you're
coaching super rugby. With the Crusaders, you had the Rumble
and the jungle. I think there was the Melbourne Storm
one and there was a Seventh Heaven.
Speaker 7 (20:23):
With the All Blacks. What was that like?
Speaker 5 (20:25):
You know, I think there was together we walk and
maybe on the end of your tour looking to create
something around the Invincibles.
Speaker 7 (20:33):
What was that like? Did it work?
Speaker 5 (20:37):
Can you give us any insights as to what sort
of themes that you tried to bring.
Speaker 6 (20:42):
I'll talk about the ones you mentioned at the end
of the year. We use the Invincibles, you know, then
incredible tour that they had and way for nine months.
I think what was after he of a boat trip
and we just wanted to show respect. One part of
the thing around the theme is entwined the legacy and
the people that walked before us and what they've done,
how they left it for in print, so weekend from
(21:03):
and what we need to do it. So you know,
the theme for the end of their tour was some
basic five games, fourteen games, you know, the most in
the test season he's been and how do we create
a togetherness so that year we take this on. You know,
you Ireland haven't lost the home for a number of
(21:26):
years and nineteen Test matches and you know, TWI twicken
them and then you go to France with probably one
of the best shows he's been and footy and how
do you embrace that and how do you how do
you how do you come all on? Because that's what
the Invincibles were, So look, we tied a little bit
of the theme around that, just to make sure we'll
bring the past, the prison and what import we want
to leave for now. Yeah, I got some goodbye and
(21:47):
the boys still talk about it and and you know,
just to learn the stories of what they went through
was a big part of.
Speaker 7 (21:55):
How we tied it and got a couple up your
sleeve for this year.
Speaker 6 (21:58):
Yeah, I think just one a natural storyteller enjoy that
side of the game. Cannects put picture, puts, pictures, pictures
and peace head so they start seeing before they do
something what we're trying to achieve.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
We'll look at twenty twenty five in a moment or two.
But Mark, I guess, where do you see New Zealand
rugby at at the moment? Is that obviously the any
of sug which is unplayed recent times is questions about
I guess, revenue streams and everything like that. So New
Zealand rugby is a head since twenty twenty five. You
mentioned in the big five years coming up, where do
you think the state of the game is in New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
Well, we're really optimistic about the future. We've been really
clear about that and already in this year, and we've
talked about Super Rugby already in some of the work
coming to Fruition that we've talked about. On the field,
we're seeing some amazing signals throughout the community game and
some constant initiative and leadership that we're playing into the
community space. We were kicking off some new initiatives at
(22:54):
the moment as it relates to you know, the business
of the sport. We still remain incredibly optimistic about the
strength of our organization and brands, and I think that's
probably one thing raised as we talks about what's being new.
It's the insights he's gotten to being offshore with the
team and seeing the connection that we have to different
(23:16):
organizations and fans around the world, and that really provides
the basis for us to continue to grow. So, you know,
you mentioned Anios. We've been really clear that we believe
in the position we have around that issue really strongly.
But at the same time, we are obviously having conversations
about other future partners or growing existing partnerships, and those
(23:39):
conversations are going well as well, so a lot there's
certainly some work to do this year. We've been really
clear around that that we want to have a look
at the model, the overall model for the game and
the system in New Zealand. We've never had more revenue.
You know, we're well north of three hundred and fifty
million dollars per year in the game now, so we
believe that should form the basis for creating a model
where we can invest in all of the right areas,
(24:00):
be more aligned as a game, to recognize the purpose
of each stakeholder within the system, and create a model
that everyone can live with you in the near future,
or while we continue to build a business case for
growing revenue where we see on an everyday basis where
there is potential and really believe in it.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
The broadcast negotiations are gouably the biggest ticket item in
the game.
Speaker 7 (24:23):
How's that going?
Speaker 5 (24:25):
And I guess specifically around the zone, did do you
see them as a as a genuine player? Do your
hope expect them to lodge and offer to create some
competitive tension there?
Speaker 8 (24:35):
Well, you know, we can't talk about that. I'd say
what I said before. We we we really believe in
the product. We believe in the future calendar.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
We believe having just got back from London where the
quality of the international game and the new competitions is going.
We believe there's more storytelling and star power and the
key personalities in the game, be they players, coaches, whatever
they may be, men's womens. You know, we just think
the future of the sport is really exciting and and
(25:08):
we think, you know, when you step back and you
look at the history of our sport by comparison to others,
we're very very young on this journey of professionalism in
our sport and we're really living through the next iteration
of that right now. So you know, some of these
things take time, but it's clear the more time you
spend in some of those different environments. There's a lot
to be optimistic.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Around the Nation's Cup coming in next year. That's that ever
forgetting too is the Club World Cup, which is on
the horizon I think still to be signed off. But
is this the biggest change for rugby since it went
pro just all these new elements coming into.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
The games in terms of calendar.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Daring, competition.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think we're really proud of
the work we've done in the space. We've played a
key leadership role in a lot of those competitions you mentioned,
you know, and that alongside the work we've done on
field product means that I think there's clear signals we're
listening to the fans here. We know the players are
(26:04):
really excited about it. I think when Raiser thinks about,
you know, a long tour to South Africa, excitement and
then Jesus is new and different, a couple of deep
breaths that come in there.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
But we've got a spreadsheets a hundred for a warm
up game leaning myself might be able to help her.
Speaker 6 (26:28):
Okay, get your health checks.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
So so yeah, I mean overall, we think it's as
I said earlier, this sort of culmination of a lot
of hard work coming together to mean there's really exciting future.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
And edit of the game is just picking up on
something Mark said before about personalities in the game. You
know you're a character, you've got a personality. Has there
been an adjustment living in the bright spotlights? You know?
Speaker 7 (27:00):
Have you had to adjust it all? Or do you
feel like you can be authentically you.
Speaker 6 (27:05):
I look on as myself. I think it's Mom and
Dad taught me that growing up and always put on
me to make sure that you can be yourself. One
thing as being a public figure, you can get public feedback.
So and that's the great thing, Like you've actually got
to embrace it because if you've got you know, somebody
in the queue at the supermarket and you know she's
(27:31):
she's someone's grannies that someone's kids played and I watched them,
you know, and you should have picked them. And you
know everyone's a selector because they allowed to be. And
this is great and someone will give you a reas night.
But that's part of the role. And so now now
you're in the you're in the country figure or a
(27:51):
public figure. You just got to accept it and realize
that they care. You know, they are saying it because
they care about the game and they've got an opinion
and there are part of it. So that's a that's
a real honor. That's how I see it. But you know,
the everything you say or do, there's always as someone's
always got another angle on it. Like you genuinely want
(28:12):
to do something good intent, but you're doing it for
this reason, you know, And that's your guys job, isn't
it You guys to find an angle and dig a
hole in it and accept the that's part of the role.
Speaker 5 (28:23):
Just on that theme, I guess in terms of personalities,
do you think Rugby could sell its personalities better? Because
it is I guess hard as well in a media
landscape where things can be skewed. But I guess if
you look at Global Sport America in particular, they project
and sell their athletes and their personalities really well.
Speaker 4 (28:43):
Well. I think again, we're on a bit of an
evolution in the space, aren't we. And I think you'd
have to agree that over the last few years. We've
certainly been more open and accessible in a lot of
our environments, but there's a you know, there's a real
constant sort of tension in this space. In the New
Zealand Rugby and All Blacks and Black Ferns have always
(29:06):
been founded on team first and what's best the team,
what's speaks for the country, what's special for the organization,
and we're just seeing this evolution to the fact that players,
you know, they want to have voice, they and we
want to embrace that. The fact that you know, there
are issues, there are topics they want to maybe be
more open about, and we have to find a way
to embrace that and evolve as a sport so it
(29:27):
doesn't happen overnight. You know, we hear that feedback to
you know, the reference to the US sports and that
sort of thing, but that is professional sports, you know,
decades old are you know, probably centuries old in some
regards of professional sports. So we're sort of on a
path that we really believe in, but sometimes it just
takes time.
Speaker 7 (29:47):
I was just going to bounce around.
Speaker 5 (29:48):
But going back to the Rugby's greatest role, we talked
about South Africa. That's going to be a great, fantastic
tour that I think there's going to be four tests
and a bit of debate about where that fourth fourth
one is going to be. Are you going to give
us a Rugby Direct exclusive today and tell us whether
we're going to twicken them all the states for that
fourth test?
Speaker 4 (30:08):
Definitely would. Yeah, I know we're still working on it,
you know, and uh, look, we just sort of reiterate
just how excited we are about the concepts. So look
when we when we can share and announce more formally,
we we will. But the work's heading in the right direction.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fans.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Every try try and sixty six every tackle to tack
tackles get up again.
Speaker 6 (30:43):
Afore it's Rugby Direct Talk.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
You're both in Europe recently for Shape of Game meetings
and seeing the six nations. What did you both glean
about the shape of the game globally and where it's
heading to at the moment?
Speaker 6 (30:57):
Yeah, from a from a laws part of it point
of view was really it was really good just to
see how they run it it. Since your short version
is is not going to be too much variation, so
we can be consistent and certify what's been done so
we can get really good at it. It's good, good
for the public, good for the players, good for the
coaches and all stakeholders to make sure and the game
(31:20):
is in a good state, you know, all and play
creating that fatigue the games, rolling people more engaged. So
that side of it they've always you know, they covered
off the TMO, the foul play stuff, the innovations, the
processes and protocols that go on with that as well,
and probably the big thing was, you know, the working
(31:41):
part was a networking and it was a great chance
for sit down with Andy Farrell watch the England Scotland
game with him and he's obviously there with a selection
point of view, and so we're in the corner of
the essay. It was quite nice just to sit down
and spend a bit of time with him and understand,
you know, his approach to the to the Lions tour.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
As we record this on the cusp of the Final
Six Nations weekend, what have you made of the competition
and seeing it up close, you know over the last
few weeks.
Speaker 6 (32:07):
Oh, good for the you know, great ball and play,
a lot of tries off off float, the quality of
the kicking has been to be but just teams just
playing you know, tight matches, you know every anyone can
sort of win it for a long period of time.
And now it's coming down to the final weekend, so
it's everything in one out of a comp So yeah,
(32:28):
it's great quality.
Speaker 7 (32:29):
Put you on the spot. Here's the world rugby rankings.
Speaker 5 (32:32):
Can you give me your top five world rugby rankings
of test nations?
Speaker 6 (32:38):
Can I say what they are?
Speaker 7 (32:40):
Yeah? No, no, no, no, no your your version?
Speaker 6 (32:43):
No you can't. There will be a headline. Someone's going
to be upset and the guy beside.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Me, Mark, what did you make about the shape of
the game and where it's from a global perspective?
Speaker 4 (33:01):
I think Raiser has covered off really well that on
field component. So what i'd is just the way that's
feeding into the future of competitions and calendars, as I've
spoken about a few times already today. So look the
Nation's Cup, we took another step forward. There are a
number of meetings around that, and lock we're only July
(33:24):
next year, so we're only whatever it's thirteen or fourteen
months until we get into that now. So real momentum
starting to build around that so that was positive and
as Raisers also said, it's the networking. It's the opportunity
to be in the same proximity as leading coaches, leading
high performance people, commercial partners, other CEOs and a whole
range of different settings that really makes that time valuable.
(33:47):
And you know, we do spend a bit of time
offshore obviously, and people often ask questions about that. But
when you see around where the future of the sport
and been growing value in the sport is for a
you know, relatively tiny country like New Zealand, as isolated
as we are, we have to be having a presence
in some of those key markets and outside of the
UK and Europe, Asia and North America. With what's coming
(34:10):
up in the future around World Cups O there is
We've talked about so a lot of meetings talking about
the next five to ten years of the sport and
how we can play a leadership role in advocating opportunities
in those markets and by the same token, helping create
values so that ultimately we can invest back in the
game at all levels here and I think that's missed sometimes.
You know, people see either the all Blacks or myself
(34:33):
in different parts of the world. This is ultimately to
grow value, to invest to make sure New Zealand Rugby
stays strong and the game can be fostered at all levels.
That's all we're trying to achieve here, and so we
see us invest into you know, I was in Kai
Tai yesterday, great session with North and Rugby and they're
doing this amazing little development up and around one of
them grounds. There as a regional academy in that area.
(34:54):
That's only been possible because of the revenue growth we've
had in New Zealand rugby and the ability to invest
into some of those initiatives. And that's happening, believe it
or not. That's happening around a ranger, lots of little
different areas in the country at the moment, which is
really happening for US.
Speaker 5 (35:08):
Scot If we look at HITS at twenty twenty five,
I guess your coaching team had a few changes last year.
How did how did they you know, learn and grow
and evolve and is that settled for this year going
to stay the same?
Speaker 6 (35:21):
Yeah, yep, it's a it's a group that were headed
end of the tour to probably just started implumt a
bit of a DNA how we wanted to play the
game and had the ball in their hands for long
periods of time and put a lot of pressure on teams.
So that will continue. You know, like I said, you
look at you look at the trends, you look at
(35:42):
how oppositions play. You look at the French because that's
who we're playing next, and you see the opportunities but
also their threats. You know, they're going to bring a
hell of a team out. You know, Fabian Guilty has
been there seven years. He knows his way around the
rugby world. He's got a really good dep deep squad,
folly old players that all could play test football. There's
enough experience, enough cohesion, and you know, people say, oh
(36:06):
what sort of team they got to playing out. They're
going to bring out a good team, you know, and
that their season finishes one the final of the top
forty in finishes a week later because of the Olympics.
That's just the way the season's gone. And but they'll
bring them. You know, we expect them to bring out
the Intermax and Panos and whoever is in that final.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
You cano come, you can because there's been talk about
obviously a B team, but you reckon the top players
will come down to yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (36:33):
Yeah, I think I think it's you have to have
that oncet, don't you otherwise? You know, you know, we
know we've last year. You never assume anything at Test footy.
You know, you're you're one card away, a couple of
penalties away from being in the corner, and then your
games change really quickly. And the quality and the depth,
(36:55):
especially in the French squad from the twenties that have
come through. So when what he's done in the last
couple of summers of their summer tours, you know, he's
taken a group of players they haven't been in their finals,
but they're playing now. You know, Bill Buddy and Yeah
and all those guys are coming through, you know, Jellybear,
all of them can step up. You look at the
(37:17):
department off and Luc who came on and wow. You know,
so the depth and quality is there is going to
be a hell of a Test series. You know, it's
the last time we'll get probably three games and one
one country, you know, a true, a true series in
that regard over the period of time. So we're expecting
the best of them.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Jordi will you you talk about him early. Is he
going to be available for that French series you look
to maybe get him back to New Zealand and restam.
Speaker 6 (37:42):
Yeah, Look, it depends how deep part of us was
him to be available for sure, that was part of
the deal. That's why it works so well and how
they've looked after him. Unfouse, We've got some really good
centers in Leinster and just the way it works with
their final for the u RC. You know here we
definitely come back and be available.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
How do you balance I guess this cause is second.
You're obviously selecting on form versus reputational players that have
done the job for you previously in an all black stusey.
What's the balance that you look for as a coach?
Speaker 6 (38:11):
A good question. Current form is important and look you
still know the class that there's going to be there,
and some guys step up at test footy consistently, doesn't
matter if they're playing here Japan, we'll come back from oversee.
They've just got the ability to step up really quickly.
But a little bit on foreign forming combinations. So look,
(38:31):
but as this she has come on, it's chucked up
some great young potentials and names and some some players
they have been around a while and that's good. That's
what we want, you know, around the ability to make
it as tough as we possibly can and be consistent
each week, and players are doing that. So it's a
balance of the two.
Speaker 5 (38:50):
How much do you live in them now and how
much do you plan ahead when you you know, obviously
the World Cups big ticular item we talked about Richard
Wong about there's others like leicesterifying and Nook who's coming
home next year? So what's the balance between living in
the now and thinking where do I have to be
in twelve twenty four months time?
Speaker 6 (39:11):
Yeah? Great, so you know your squad see if you
look at twenty seven because you have to there's no
development time for me, one of the only teams really
that in World rugby that you know developments, you win
and develop and you know I learned that through the twenties.
(39:31):
You know, you don't develop them when that's so you
have to have the balance of the two and that's
a real art. There's a skill you know, giving guys opportunities,
but having to win the test match in front of you,
you know, the season last year there was a balance
of the of the two and we've had your ten
debutants this year. If you get four or five and
the next next two years, you start to slidify your group.
(39:52):
There's always bolted, there's always opportunities, there's always I want
to make that really clear, So don't shut any doors.
But then you build the cohesion and understanding and teams
that have to go through tough tours, tough tests and
build relationships and cohesion. They know how to win game
manage together. So then you start to still vide the
(40:13):
group at the back end.
Speaker 5 (40:14):
Just in terms of that selection stopped me if I'm
wrong here, but how much does it evolve week to week?
Because my senses that the loss in Wellington to the
Pumas the following week at eden Park you may have
been given guys more opportunities had you not lost that test.
So is there is there that sort of swing in
(40:35):
a week? Results have a big factor in selection.
Speaker 6 (40:41):
They can do they can do, you know, like that's
a prime example. I think you're you're right, there probably
would have been some more opportunities, but Eden Park so
dear to us it deserves the honoring of our best
test team for that for that week. And as I
said like Argentina were good, you know, and we had
you know, six bodies come back the next week two
(41:01):
which helped. So you know, you all of a sudden
you get a bench, you know, and things. You get
a depth in your squad straight away, and you've got
to respect the team that you're playing in and also
the beautiful place of Eden Park.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
You mentioned Eden Park September the sixth. Yeah, how much
you're looking forward to that test already? The spring Box
coming to town.
Speaker 6 (41:21):
Yeah, a great opportunity. You know, it's on the line,
isn't it. Those are the ones you want to play
in and those ones that get Rugby or every New
Zealanders so everyone excited about So, yeah, it's definitely on
their calendar. It's exciting.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
We've seen the spring Box use a six to two
and a seven to one bench in France go with
it as well, seven to one. Any chance we see
the All Blacks go a seven to one bench at
some point under Scott Robertson.
Speaker 6 (41:48):
Well, it's in the laws. So people say, you know,
the first thing you're clear is you know, is it right? Well,
that's right because in the laws you can do it.
And the way they play teams play, especially now, and
the fatigue that comes in the games affords the impacts
the context that they have so high, so they've got
the immediate effect on the game, especially after halftime. And
(42:12):
you know, when you can bring an initial loose forward
makes a massive difference to it. Yeah, so you look
at it. You know, we've considered it ourselves. We believe
that wasn't quite We went it was it quite week
for it. But look it's working and renovative and you've
you've got to you've got to keep it on that trend.
Speaker 5 (42:32):
So it's deffie an option one smoky out there at
the moment for you both, Haylen Ponger. Any any sense
that he may come over and have a crack at
rugby in the next year or two.
Speaker 4 (42:49):
Are you're hitting me there, mate, I'm not. I'm not
across seen maybe, but I haven't seen that.
Speaker 6 (42:55):
Oh look, look obviously he's done it, you know, a
few years ago as well. He's obviously showed us tim
and interest. But if he comes to us, he will
have a conversation. You always do was keep the door open.
But he's a hell of a player, isn't he. If
he shows interest, you know, there could be a conversation
if he gets so that.
Speaker 5 (43:14):
What about more broadly, I guess about the NRL converts
in rugby union.
Speaker 7 (43:19):
We've seen.
Speaker 5 (43:21):
Rogers, two of us, Shik, Joseph Suili, Sonny, but Williams
back in time. What what's your view about whether it
works and maybe how long a successful transition would take?
Speaker 6 (43:35):
Yeah, good, good question. Traditionally, the backs or outside backs
that come over, you know, especially or even you look
back and you know the lotty to carry days, don't you.
You know Wendle Sailor Rogers, Yeah, Matt Rodgers and those
sorts of guys. You know, like they've got a role
defend the last or second to last on the wing.
(43:55):
So they've got crearly great ball carriers, good defenders, tacklers, sorry,
but the defensive stuff on the edge. That those are
the ones who made the transition. So you look at Sonny,
they're a great So everyone's different. Firstly, different skill sets.
Sunny when he came over, he was still in his
early twenties. He'd gone through Toulon, had a great period
(44:18):
of you know, he was mentored by Tana. He had
a period of time where he learned the game because
you go to learn the game if you've been out
for a period of time and then how long how
quickly can you transition? The great thing is for him
is because his long levers is a big man, he
could get his arms free, just carried hard, got his
shoulders through the line and had a good offload. So
(44:41):
he came to a great club and well coached with
Dave Rennie and the Chiefs, and all of a sudden
he was fast tracked. So everyone's going to be different
how quickly you come through, But probably the best ones
and the best transitions. I've got a multi skill set,
and you know it's up to them how quickly they transition.
Speaker 7 (45:03):
JK.
Speaker 5 (45:04):
Mark ellis they went the other ways. You think you
two could have hit a crack believed well, I did.
Speaker 6 (45:10):
Play a little bit when I was going up and
had a couple offers along the way. You know, yeah, but.
Speaker 7 (45:15):
It was her game calling.
Speaker 6 (45:17):
Oh a lot of Britain go there, that's Jesus more
in trouble. But I think I think you know that
you look at their game and you learn a lot
of it. You know, Look, Rugby follows a lot of
the trends in league. You know, with the way they're defend.
They back in the day, they're shutting. Now they're coming
(45:38):
off and getting in passing lanes and league defense, speed,
leagues of texts. You spend a lot of time looking
at them, and you might and but our Game two
is so innovative and you know, a lot more kicking
and stuff in it as well. But yeah, we can
learn off each other. But yeah, definitely definitely a back row.
Speaker 3 (45:57):
Yeah, as we wrap this up, guys, final question for
both of you help for Raiser, what does success look
like for the All Blacks and twenty twenty five? And
for Mark Robinson what does it broad look like for
New Zealand rugby success in twenty two You decide between
yourselves so you.
Speaker 4 (46:11):
Oh, look, I've spoken to a few of the things
through through the interview, Elliott, but we've got a big
focus this year on the opportunity to look at our model,
the overall model and system and sustainability of the game.
So we're looking forward to taking the opportunity to work
with stakeholders and partnering to grow that. That's really important
to us. Clearly on the field, you know, it's a
(46:33):
big year with the Black Ferns in terms of Rugby
World Cup twenty five, it's our pinnacle event this year.
And then we've just talked a bit or a lot
about the All Blacks this year and the opportunities they have.
It's just an incredible schedule domestically and internationally. You know,
we haven't touched on the Chicago game today, but you know,
selling that well in that market that quickly is phenomenal.
(46:56):
So there's there's lots of great opportunities on the field
with our teams and Blacks, and then at the community game,
as I said, we've got just loads of really good
innovation coming into that space. Excited about some really good signs.
In the last two years, we've had consecutive significant growth
in some areas of the game which are really positive
about as well. So so yeah, look, if you if
(47:18):
you're sort of if you chunk those areas up, there's
there's clearly winning it on the on the global stage,
there's community and what's dear to us here and growing
that and then's our model and part of that, I
guess the final point would be continuing to grow our
commercial reach and our digital reach, because that's that's the
basis for growing value in the game and being able
to reinvest back into it. So along the way there's
(47:40):
some real key measures and what we do there. So
it's always heaps on guys, but we're you know, we're
equally passionate about our areas and what we're trying to
achieve and looking forward to the year.
Speaker 6 (47:50):
Yeah, sere with the Black fans as well. They're a
bit to do with nun Bunting. One way of set
it up. Everyone's lined with another demon black from the coaches,
so you know with Ubunting and Arabia, couple of them
so all the best you know, we watch from a
farm connecting. So how exciting is that we learn a
bit off them as well? You always do. Success for
(48:10):
us is actually keep creating, but finishing and executing, you know,
both sides of the ball. It's really critical and and
just you just keep temping ours you know, our DNA
on the game, keep being trusted, trusting ourselves and being
brave and playing some good footy and then we'll get results.
Speaker 7 (48:30):
How important is it?
Speaker 5 (48:31):
Just lastly that you do have the the faith and
trust and confidence to stick with what you want to
do and not.
Speaker 7 (48:40):
Follow others or bowl to pressure or results.
Speaker 5 (48:42):
But but if it doesn't work, you have the faith
to stick with what stylistically you want to do.
Speaker 6 (48:49):
Yeah, there's the imbalance of it. You've still got to
have people that challenge your thoughts or on it, but
thoughts on it. But you're still got to go back
to your the identity piece to what am I going
to stand by here? What's really important to us? Make
sure you have metrics that keep on top of it,
and someone on your shoulders. Well, just keep reminding you
either doing a good job or you could do the
(49:09):
like you guys.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
It's Scott Robertson. Thank you so Much's I on Rugby Direct.
It's been a great discussion. Thanks guys.
Speaker 4 (49:19):
Thanks guys, appreciate its.
Speaker 6 (49:22):
Rugby Direct.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
How would buds talks b That was Mirke Robinson and
Scott Robertson joining us on Rugby Direct. Hope you enjoyed
that chat with them, an extended chance to get into
some of the issues around New Zealand rugby. Hopefully it
answered some of your questions as listeners as well. All
thanks to our friends at Habit Health tackling all your
(49:44):
aches and pains from sport and work. Thanks to those
that help produce that podcast Andy Enuff for tying Get
All Together. We'll be back next week with more Rugby Direct.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
For more from News Talks, ed B, Listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Inside the Game from every angle.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
It's Rugby Direct with Elliott Smith powered by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Welcome into Rugby Direct powered by Habit Heath, tackling all
your ax and pains from sports and work. A special
bonus edition of Rugby Direct with two great guests that
we were lucky enough to have for an extended interview. Myself,
Elliott Smith and Liam Napier sat down with New Zealand
Rugby Chief Executive Mark Robinson and All Blacks head coach
(00:46):
Scott Robertson to discuss plenty of issues across the game
super rugby, the eligibility to make for the All Blacks,
looking back at twenty twenty four, the challenges New Zealand
Rugby faces, and to look ahead to twenty twenty five.
Plenty of issues to discuss right across rugby. It was
great to have Mark Robinson and Scott Robertson join us
(01:06):
on the podcast. I began by asking about their relationship
which has gone all the way back to the nineteen
nineties and the early two thousands, when they played together
at the Crusaders to now as All Blacks head coach
and New Zealand Rugby chief executive.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Well, yeah, we met probably like you say it in
the late nineties. Raised was already in christ Church from memory,
and I'd come home from England. I was studying over
there to Cannaby and the Crusaders, so we sort of
started knocking around back then. And my vivid memories of
Razor back then was obviously aside from a great player,
even back then, you know, he's a carrying a coaching
(01:43):
a playbook around, you know, he was highly engaged in
tactics and the game itself and that sort of thing.
So it was no great surprise I guess as time
has eventuated that he's ended up where he has. Even
then he had a real key in the game and
the technical tactical side me less, So you know, I
was sort of more engaged at that time around things
that were happening around our environment and wider issues around
(02:06):
rugby and that sort of thing. But we said some
great memories, you know, obviously fortunately playing a really successful
era with great coaches and teammates and that sort of thing,
and they probably for a few years where Rose was
off doing his thing and I was and it wasn't
until a little while ago where we sort of started
reconnecting up for obvious reasons. So you know, did things
in France and Japan, and it was in different parts
(02:26):
of the world. So but yeah, I mean once you
played together and spend time together, you always retain a
connection of sorts. And so it's been really neat working
together in the last little while and getting to spend
more time together.
Speaker 5 (02:39):
It's got any good tales and memories from the from
the playing days, pre season, on the field, off the field, let.
Speaker 6 (02:49):
Stay on field. I think we just remember Robert was
a strict rugby player. You know, he knew the game.
He always kept us feeding the tackle, so you always
rang off his shoulder. He always had a little offload
on him. So he said a huge He hasn't scored
too many, but there's a few assists. So yeah, look
(03:09):
we had it was a great times playing and now
you know, the opportunity for us to go back to
the game and our roles and like we said, you
know we've quite wildly been around play love sas and
you come back to and to do a role that
we're doing so patiently and for our for our country's honor.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
What have you made at the start to Super Rugby
twenty twenty five show?
Speaker 6 (03:30):
Yeah, how good. I think everyone's talking about anywhere you go,
just at the quality of football, the skill sets, the
young parts that are coming through teams. Is a bit
of jeopardy, you know, and can win. And I just
think shape of the game. You know that the ball
and play and all around the world is really high.
But Super Rugby has been great to watch and enjoyed
(03:52):
it as from a coaching point of view, section point
of view, but also just as in viewership.
Speaker 7 (03:57):
You know, you really entertained early doors.
Speaker 5 (04:00):
Obviously were four rounds in, but I think you had
ten new or blacks in your first year. Anyone catching
your eye at this early stage.
Speaker 6 (04:08):
Yeah, there is, there always is. Look if I say
any names or you know, that's what I've learned, you
in trouble if you if you make suggestions. But I look,
there's always I think some guys that have had their
first supers or second supers have really stood up. They've
had opportunities, been a couple of injuries they've taken that
(04:30):
you know, they've got regular game time and you know
they're playing playing some feedless footy and because every game
has is tight, you see them under pressure as well
in your and just really enjoying the skill sets and bravery.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Mark we've talked about about the changes to Super Rugby
have the last four or five years. How exciting for
you in your role that Super Rugby has got off
to a hiss and rule this year.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Yeah, I mean there's a lot of things coming to fruition,
aren't there that we've talked about for a little while.
One was, as Raisor said, the shape of the game
and the work we've we've done there, and he and
I are in London recently some of those big global
meetings and really really positive to hear the recognition of
the leadership work we've taken there starting to be a fruit.
So that's that's one great thing. Clearly, the Australian teams
(05:16):
are highly competitive and that's you know, creating jeopardy as
raises mentioned, and real uncertainty and results. And then I
think combined we've seen the Commission be able to stand
up in a ralibly short amount of time. As we've
always said, have a real dedicated focus on the competition,
and in terms of the way it's package, branded, communicated,
(05:37):
there's been some real improvements there. I mean, how good's
fantasy you know, I'm I'm sure you guys are chipping away.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
You raise, I hear you you're in the fantasy's who's
in your team?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (05:51):
Look, we got an email about three days beforehand when
my three sons are at it and chipping away at
me and asking. They said, you need to know how
to do it. Obviously we're doing it.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
Yeah, we're all you know, straight down the line and
all that.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
So it's been really good for the competition though, discussions
and assuming the NRAL in the past, but just being
able to talk about with your colleagues, your friends about
who's in your team, who's out, and I'm sure you
guys have had discussions about it even though you're allowed
to play. Just how it's sort of changed the dynamics
a little bit of the competition.
Speaker 6 (06:24):
I'll give you a high buy. And isn't it You
actually got a bit of skin, isn't it? Because your
back your players and your team and you know you're
looking at your phone watching rugby. It's all of a sudden,
people looking up and checking scores, it's live and just
that that's where our game is. The entertiment tainment partner.
It's just another layer and engaging with people.
Speaker 5 (06:42):
If we're gettingto some some hot topics, eligibility is a
big one. There's been an evolution over time. We all
know that you currently can't select All Blacks from offshore.
Speaker 7 (06:53):
There's the sabbatical options.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
Where do you both sit currently about the eligibility stance
and where do you see it getting too in the
next few years.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Yeah, well, we're really clear as an organization. You know,
been a lot of say, speculation and talk about it,
but through all of that we've been really firm that
it's been a big part of successive New Zealand Rugby
and the All Blacks for some time. It is a
key sort of incentive for players to remain here and
(07:24):
it is something that is also important for the wider
pathways and development of the game here. So look, it's right.
It's an area where there's always probably going to be
you know, a degree of scrutiny as it is for
many yeas of the game. It's great, you know, there's
passion and interest in the game. But for us, we've
been able to for a long period of time, retain
the vast majority of players we've been wanting to retain,
(07:47):
and then obviously in the last little while there's been
as you said, within the policy, there's the tools and
flexibility to be creative where we need to recognize some
of those long term servants that have given so much
to the game and be able to give back while
retaining them, you know, longer term with the All Blacks
and New Zealand Rugby. So overall, you know, we'll always
be open to sort of looking at in the future,
(08:09):
but at the moment we're pretty firm and supportive of it.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Raising you've long them obviously been your one of your
lines has been keep an open mind. Where are you
at at the moment with the eligibility Suga.
Speaker 6 (08:19):
Yeah, Look, I had a first a year, you know,
so I said, I have a year to look at
it and where I stand. And the first thing is,
you know, my intentions for the the comment was is
it fit for purpose? Still? You know currently in this
model where we're sitting, you know, globally and internally, you know,
one of my jobs is to make sure that the
(08:40):
pathways is strong so we can keep it, can do
a flow of quality players enjoy the game and also
want to come through and be professional rugby players and aspiration.
So we'll talk a little bit later on around the
pathway stuff that we're doing. But look, look, I understand
how important is and now I'm probably got more insight
around the flexibility there is. There isn't the current regulations.
(09:05):
You know, it is fit for purpose. There is a
little bit of flexibility there. And I just want to
sort of give you an example an open mind as
someone like a Jordi Barrett. You know, traditionally we've gone
to Japan to play. And when Jordi came and said,
I've got an option for for for Leinster and another
an opportunity, you know, we zoomed and we talked through
(09:26):
all the practicalities. What would what would his season look like?
Going north? Is it going to make him a better player?
You know? And once we'd listened and you know, he
had a majority of the six nations off, he'd had
a break, he'd been well coached. You know, I just
had to catch up with Jack Naber when I was
over there and talked and sat down with him and
(09:48):
just how impressed he was as a as a player
as a man, how hard he worked on and off
the field. That was just incredibly impressed. You know, we
touched base with him. He's an on field coach to Jordy,
so he'd be leaning on and off the field, and
that's a prime example of keeping open mind. Someone like
himself going north. Okay, great, we're in a position now
we'll hear come back as a better player and ultimately
(10:10):
that's what we want out of this. And he's just
one example. You know, potentially more to come.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Do you see see more potentially of those sort of
deals happening in the future.
Speaker 6 (10:19):
Yeah, yeah, look at what's worked. You know, look if
at the essences. You know, we're still keeping the integrity
of all our pathway programs. So a guy doesn't go
away and play. We're picking people from overseas. They've earned
the opportunity, they've been loyal, they've done their time. They
get to go away and then come back. And he'll
come back and you know, he'll be a coach at
(10:40):
the Canes again. As there's a great player player coach
as we know, and other players you know where they
sit in their career, they had that opportunity to as well.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Because you look at South Africa obviously, and they can
pick whoever they want, whenever they want. That wouldn't work
for the all blacks.
Speaker 6 (10:56):
You don't think, well, one sort of thing. I've learned
to talk through it and you look at ther stats
and it suits their model. It suits their model for
them where they currently are, you know, financially, where they sit.
What do we current competitions in their players, so that
there's model for us. We're in great shape. You know,
(11:18):
we've got a great group of low all blacks and
you know, super players that want to be all blacks
and young kids that want to be all blacks and
know that they're playing our country. To get that dead opportunity.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
I mean, we've got to focus guys on what we
think is best for New Zealand. When there's always that's
a beauty of the sport. There's always comparisons and analysis
is the different models. But we fundamentally believe this can
work for New Zealand rugby and we are retaining majority
of players and you know, whilst we might not have
all the resource and all the money compared to some markets,
(11:53):
we're working really hard around environments. You know, great coaching environments,
great competitions got virgin and competitions are going to get
better and better. Grete five year calendar coming up. In
terms of what's possible around rugby in this part of
the world with the Lions tours, the South Africa All
Blacks concept, I mean, we think super rugby is going
to get better and better. So focusing really hard on
will always keep you a little bit on what's going
(12:14):
on around the world, but focusing really hard on what
we're doing as well.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
You mentioned the Jaudy Bearer example. Yes, another one who
you don't have access to. Richid Wonger World Class ten.
You know, I'm well, I think you both. You know,
went up to Japan to meet with him at the
back end of last year. I don't know the nature
of those conversations, but obviously there was a desire to
bring him home early. Why did he not come home
(12:37):
early was as simple as couldn't reach terms with Tashiba
financially or.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
There's a lot of speculations around that last year wasn't
the ELM. So look, I think clearly people understand there
were some conversations through last year, but ultimately, you know,
Richie's made a decision to work through to the obligations
under his contract. You know, we respect that and we're
(13:03):
moving forward. As we say, we're really clear on our
eligibility rules, and you know we certainly always respect players
that have left the All Blacks and are playing off shore.
And there's always a degree of contact. You know that
that happens, but that's good coaches and good good people
doing their jobs probably, and that happens a lot of level.
That happens with players that are very much passed, you know,
(13:25):
their playing careers, and that that's just the nature of
the all Black environment and the All Black family. So hey, look,
you know we're clearly moving forward and got a lot
of belief and the people coming through and the protocols
were gone in place.
Speaker 5 (13:38):
Scott Distill hope Richie will come back next year that
winners contract finishes and push for a place in the
twenty twenty seven World cut.
Speaker 6 (13:47):
Yeah, look, all plays you want me all your best
players available. You know that's what it takes to win
a Rugby World Cup. And you know you keep connected
with all of them, doesn't matter and where they are at,
you know you still get message from from the old
players now and again, chicking in and making sure you know,
Sam Kaine, so there's time, but he's you know, he's
(14:09):
a prime example. You know he checks it and making
sure everything's right in the off season. But yeah, you
just want your best players.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Saw Boden Baron and Damian McKenzie last year have that
ten jersey. How important are they in this next three
years for you as an All Blacks coach?
Speaker 6 (14:25):
Oh critical, Look like I just you know b Mac,
you know what he year that he had gave him
plenty of opportunity, you know, just his ability to control
the game with his boot. You know, I think the
Irish game, how good was that? You know the week
before he came on and kicked the ball from the
selon to England to change the match. And then then
(14:46):
he owned that game against Ireland, you know, and got
picked in the World fifteen as a ten. And you know,
so it's impact off the bench as match management, his
ability to lead the teams to being credible. And you've
got Bone who's just evergreen, just keeps going and so
so classy, just got so much time time. He's a game,
(15:10):
there's a kicking game. Been awesome for US coaches. He's
been great off field. So both of them compliment each
other really well, and because they can pay ten and
fifteen and you know both have grad and pecks off
the bench are really really available to us.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
I think the makes off contract this year. Yeah, you're
going down to the tron and a rasource or something.
Speaker 7 (15:30):
Keep him in for a minute.
Speaker 6 (15:32):
Oh look, you know he's he's a linebreaker. He's got
that special ability to do something others don't, you know,
every intention and work as hard as we possibly can.
And they have a player like him. You know, he's
in that peak of his powers of twenty nine. He's
learned so much, he's mature, and you know for sure
(15:55):
we're on them.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Yeah, Razor, how would you look back at your first
year in charge last year in twenty twenty four. I'm
sure he had a few thoughts about that over summer.
How you look back now where we sit here in March.
Speaker 6 (16:06):
You have plenty of views and more into I look
from a personal point of view and a team point
of view, Like I think, you only learn by doing. Really,
otherwise you're just reading, aren't you until you actually put
your hands to it and your feet toward and you
actually take step forward to the moment. So all the
preparation that I've done coaching before. It got you to
that point, but then it's the people in front of
(16:27):
you and your and your environment and your group and
what that needs. Like so statistically it's like we you know,
made the most line breaks, most of defender's bet and
most off flows and most carries and will rub you.
So it was some incredible stats. You know, we've got
better and better as our game understanding and the calls
and we embedded it through the year, and but we
(16:49):
just didn't quite couldn't finish enough. You know, there was
three games that are one scores. You know they could
have gone each way, you know about to ball risk
all things that's test footy, you know, so finishing a
little bit of execution and a little bit of maybe
game management, and so that's been our focus. But also
(17:11):
with the intent just how much we've created. That's that's
the part that gets us excited. You know, we're aligned
with know how our weeks are. It was a massive
change for all of us, so you know we're in
a good spot.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Do those stats give you confidence that you're on the
right right track, you know obviously, Yeah.
Speaker 6 (17:28):
That's one I mentioned.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Yeah, one of the states that you need to improve
your top top of those worldboard.
Speaker 6 (17:36):
Look in the just thing, it's the tightest internation rugby
is the title has ever been in history. You know,
there's there's one score games. The top eight all can
beat each other, you know. Look, you can look at
Italy and Argentina, you know a couple of scores just recently.
But other than that, on their day, you know a
lot of their players playing the top fourteen, they play together,
they've come through their age groups together, they play in
(18:00):
the same team and their comps, or they're playing for
Toulouse or or been in a top club up in Europe.
So the coach really well, so Test forty as tits
has ever been, you know, and that's a great challenge.
That's why you look at it. You know you're going
to be tested every test match. Tier one's extremely strong.
(18:21):
TI two you know, on the day can come through
install they get everyone available, and that's what normally happens
around World Cups. So just as tough to beat as well.
So yeah, there's there's lots of challenges, but goad opportunities
as well.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fairs.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Every try try ten sixty sec every tackle to tackle,
tackles get up again?
Speaker 6 (18:51):
Are it's rugby direct?
Speaker 7 (18:53):
Ladies talk on a person all of you?
Speaker 5 (18:56):
Ovious said seven years with the Crusader's unrivaled success. From
I guess a pure coaching point of view, how different
was it Super rugby to international?
Speaker 7 (19:05):
How you prepare your week? The intensity of it?
Speaker 5 (19:08):
You know, I guess Super rugby is more of a
campaign where Test rugby is very week to week.
Speaker 7 (19:14):
How different was it?
Speaker 6 (19:15):
Yeah? Look, the thing is because we came in, everything
was new and new, change of calls and new stuff
and everything. It took a while to know just when
you embied something. When you learn, like just instinctively you
move before the call. You know, it takes time to
listen to a call. What is our call? Where we're
going to go? And if someone just yells out blast
(19:36):
or whatever the word is, where do they have to be?
And it took us a couple of even though the
moving before it's actually been said, because they're instinctively understanding
where to go. So it took us that period of
time to go and during our weeks, you know, getting
the balance of the week, the intensity, you know, we're
away one hundred and twenty days, twenty one she's on.
So how do you get the balance of the week.
(19:57):
You spend a lot of time with your leaders, you know,
making sure you're managing get the best out of them.
They energy levels high, but you're still giving them what
they need. From a rugby point of view, and culturally.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
The theming elements a big part of you and you're
coaching super rugby. With the Crusaders, you had the Rumble
and the jungle. I think there was the Melbourne Storm
one and there was a Seventh Heaven.
Speaker 7 (20:23):
With the All Blacks. What was that like?
Speaker 5 (20:25):
You know, I think there was together we walk and
maybe on the end of your tour looking to create
something around the Invincibles.
Speaker 7 (20:33):
What was that like? Did it work?
Speaker 5 (20:37):
Can you give us any insights as to what sort
of themes that you tried to bring.
Speaker 6 (20:42):
I'll talk about the ones you mentioned at the end
of the year. We use the Invincibles, you know, then
incredible tour that they had and way for nine months.
I think what was after he of a boat trip
and we just wanted to show respect. One part of
the thing around the theme is entwined the legacy and
the people that walked before us and what they've done,
how they left it for in print, so weekend from
(21:03):
and what we need to do it. So you know,
the theme for the end of their tour was some
basic five games, fourteen games, you know, the most in
the test season he's been and how do we create
a togetherness so that year we take this on. You know,
you Ireland haven't lost the home for a number of
(21:26):
years and nineteen Test matches and you know, TWI twicken
them and then you go to France with probably one
of the best shows he's been and footy and how
do you embrace that and how do you how do
you how do you come all on? Because that's what
the Invincibles were, So look, we tied a little bit
of the theme around that, just to make sure we'll
bring the past, the prison and what import we want
to leave for now. Yeah, I got some goodbye and
(21:47):
the boys still talk about it and and you know,
just to learn the stories of what they went through
was a big part of.
Speaker 7 (21:55):
How we tied it and got a couple up your
sleeve for this year.
Speaker 6 (21:58):
Yeah, I think just one a natural storyteller enjoy that
side of the game. Cannects put picture, puts, pictures, pictures
and peace head so they start seeing before they do
something what we're trying to achieve.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
We'll look at twenty twenty five in a moment or two.
But Mark, I guess, where do you see New Zealand
rugby at at the moment? Is that obviously the any
of sug which is unplayed recent times is questions about
I guess, revenue streams and everything like that. So New
Zealand rugby is a head since twenty twenty five. You
mentioned in the big five years coming up, where do
you think the state of the game is in New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
Well, we're really optimistic about the future. We've been really
clear about that and already in this year, and we've
talked about Super Rugby already in some of the work
coming to Fruition that we've talked about. On the field,
we're seeing some amazing signals throughout the community game and
some constant initiative and leadership that we're playing into the
community space. We were kicking off some new initiatives at
(22:54):
the moment as it relates to you know, the business
of the sport. We still remain incredibly optimistic about the
strength of our organization and brands, and I think that's
probably one thing raised as we talks about what's being new.
It's the insights he's gotten to being offshore with the
team and seeing the connection that we have to different
(23:16):
organizations and fans around the world, and that really provides
the basis for us to continue to grow. So, you know,
you mentioned Anios. We've been really clear that we believe
in the position we have around that issue really strongly.
But at the same time, we are obviously having conversations
about other future partners or growing existing partnerships, and those
(23:39):
conversations are going well as well, so a lot there's
certainly some work to do this year. We've been really
clear around that that we want to have a look
at the model, the overall model for the game and
the system in New Zealand. We've never had more revenue.
You know, we're well north of three hundred and fifty
million dollars per year in the game now, so we
believe that should form the basis for creating a model
where we can invest in all of the right areas,
(24:00):
be more aligned as a game, to recognize the purpose
of each stakeholder within the system, and create a model
that everyone can live with you in the near future,
or while we continue to build a business case for
growing revenue where we see on an everyday basis where
there is potential and really believe in it.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
The broadcast negotiations are gouably the biggest ticket item in
the game.
Speaker 7 (24:23):
How's that going?
Speaker 5 (24:25):
And I guess specifically around the zone, did do you
see them as a as a genuine player? Do your
hope expect them to lodge and offer to create some
competitive tension there?
Speaker 8 (24:35):
Well, you know, we can't talk about that. I'd say
what I said before. We we we really believe in
the product. We believe in the future calendar.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
We believe having just got back from London where the
quality of the international game and the new competitions is going.
We believe there's more storytelling and star power and the
key personalities in the game, be they players, coaches, whatever
they may be, men's womens. You know, we just think
the future of the sport is really exciting and and
(25:08):
we think, you know, when you step back and you
look at the history of our sport by comparison to others,
we're very very young on this journey of professionalism in
our sport and we're really living through the next iteration
of that right now. So you know, some of these
things take time, but it's clear the more time you
spend in some of those different environments. There's a lot
to be optimistic.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Around the Nation's Cup coming in next year. That's that ever
forgetting too is the Club World Cup, which is on
the horizon I think still to be signed off. But
is this the biggest change for rugby since it went
pro just all these new elements coming into.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
The games in terms of calendar.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Daring, competition.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think we're really proud of
the work we've done in the space. We've played a
key leadership role in a lot of those competitions you mentioned,
you know, and that alongside the work we've done on
field product means that I think there's clear signals we're
listening to the fans here. We know the players are
(26:04):
really excited about it. I think when Raiser thinks about,
you know, a long tour to South Africa, excitement and
then Jesus is new and different, a couple of deep
breaths that come in there.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
But we've got a spreadsheets a hundred for a warm
up game leaning myself might be able to help her.
Speaker 6 (26:28):
Okay, get your health checks.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
So so yeah, I mean overall, we think it's as
I said earlier, this sort of culmination of a lot
of hard work coming together to mean there's really exciting future.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
And edit of the game is just picking up on
something Mark said before about personalities in the game. You
know you're a character, you've got a personality. Has there
been an adjustment living in the bright spotlights? You know?
Speaker 7 (27:00):
Have you had to adjust it all? Or do you
feel like you can be authentically you.
Speaker 6 (27:05):
I look on as myself. I think it's Mom and
Dad taught me that growing up and always put on
me to make sure that you can be yourself. One
thing as being a public figure, you can get public feedback.
So and that's the great thing, Like you've actually got
to embrace it because if you've got you know, somebody
in the queue at the supermarket and you know she's
(27:31):
she's someone's grannies that someone's kids played and I watched them,
you know, and you should have picked them. And you
know everyone's a selector because they allowed to be. And
this is great and someone will give you a reas night.
But that's part of the role. And so now now
you're in the you're in the country figure or a
(27:51):
public figure. You just got to accept it and realize
that they care. You know, they are saying it because
they care about the game and they've got an opinion
and there are part of it. So that's a that's
a real honor. That's how I see it. But you know,
the everything you say or do, there's always as someone's
always got another angle on it. Like you genuinely want
(28:12):
to do something good intent, but you're doing it for
this reason, you know, And that's your guys job, isn't
it You guys to find an angle and dig a
hole in it and accept the that's part of the role.
Speaker 5 (28:23):
Just on that theme, I guess in terms of personalities,
do you think Rugby could sell its personalities better? Because
it is I guess hard as well in a media
landscape where things can be skewed. But I guess if
you look at Global Sport America in particular, they project
and sell their athletes and their personalities really well.
Speaker 4 (28:43):
Well. I think again, we're on a bit of an
evolution in the space, aren't we. And I think you'd
have to agree that over the last few years. We've
certainly been more open and accessible in a lot of
our environments, but there's a you know, there's a real
constant sort of tension in this space. In the New
Zealand Rugby and All Blacks and Black Ferns have always
(29:06):
been founded on team first and what's best the team,
what's speaks for the country, what's special for the organization,
and we're just seeing this evolution to the fact that players,
you know, they want to have voice, they and we
want to embrace that. The fact that you know, there
are issues, there are topics they want to maybe be
more open about, and we have to find a way
to embrace that and evolve as a sport so it
(29:27):
doesn't happen overnight. You know, we hear that feedback to
you know, the reference to the US sports and that
sort of thing, but that is professional sports, you know,
decades old are you know, probably centuries old in some
regards of professional sports. So we're sort of on a
path that we really believe in, but sometimes it just
takes time.
Speaker 7 (29:47):
I was just going to bounce around.
Speaker 5 (29:48):
But going back to the Rugby's greatest role, we talked
about South Africa. That's going to be a great, fantastic
tour that I think there's going to be four tests
and a bit of debate about where that fourth fourth
one is going to be. Are you going to give
us a Rugby Direct exclusive today and tell us whether
we're going to twicken them all the states for that
fourth test?
Speaker 4 (30:08):
Definitely would. Yeah, I know we're still working on it,
you know, and uh, look, we just sort of reiterate
just how excited we are about the concepts. So look
when we when we can share and announce more formally,
we we will. But the work's heading in the right direction.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fans.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Every try try and sixty six every tackle to tack
tackles get up again.
Speaker 6 (30:43):
Afore it's Rugby Direct Talk.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
You're both in Europe recently for Shape of Game meetings
and seeing the six nations. What did you both glean
about the shape of the game globally and where it's
heading to at the moment?
Speaker 6 (30:57):
Yeah, from a from a laws part of it point
of view was really it was really good just to
see how they run it it. Since your short version
is is not going to be too much variation, so
we can be consistent and certify what's been done so
we can get really good at it. It's good, good
for the public, good for the players, good for the
coaches and all stakeholders to make sure and the game
(31:20):
is in a good state, you know, all and play
creating that fatigue the games, rolling people more engaged. So
that side of it they've always you know, they covered
off the TMO, the foul play stuff, the innovations, the
processes and protocols that go on with that as well,
and probably the big thing was, you know, the working
(31:41):
part was a networking and it was a great chance
for sit down with Andy Farrell watch the England Scotland
game with him and he's obviously there with a selection
point of view, and so we're in the corner of
the essay. It was quite nice just to sit down
and spend a bit of time with him and understand,
you know, his approach to the to the Lions tour.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
As we record this on the cusp of the Final
Six Nations weekend, what have you made of the competition
and seeing it up close, you know over the last
few weeks.
Speaker 6 (32:07):
Oh, good for the you know, great ball and play,
a lot of tries off off float, the quality of
the kicking has been to be but just teams just
playing you know, tight matches, you know every anyone can
sort of win it for a long period of time.
And now it's coming down to the final weekend, so
it's everything in one out of a comp So yeah,
(32:28):
it's great quality.
Speaker 7 (32:29):
Put you on the spot. Here's the world rugby rankings.
Speaker 5 (32:32):
Can you give me your top five world rugby rankings
of test nations?
Speaker 6 (32:38):
Can I say what they are?
Speaker 7 (32:40):
Yeah? No, no, no, no, no your your version?
Speaker 6 (32:43):
No you can't. There will be a headline. Someone's going
to be upset and the guy beside.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Me, Mark, what did you make about the shape of
the game and where it's from a global perspective?
Speaker 4 (33:01):
I think Raiser has covered off really well that on
field component. So what i'd is just the way that's
feeding into the future of competitions and calendars, as I've
spoken about a few times already today. So look the
Nation's Cup, we took another step forward. There are a
number of meetings around that, and lock we're only July
(33:24):
next year, so we're only whatever it's thirteen or fourteen
months until we get into that now. So real momentum
starting to build around that so that was positive and
as Raisers also said, it's the networking. It's the opportunity
to be in the same proximity as leading coaches, leading
high performance people, commercial partners, other CEOs and a whole
range of different settings that really makes that time valuable.
(33:47):
And you know, we do spend a bit of time
offshore obviously, and people often ask questions about that. But
when you see around where the future of the sport
and been growing value in the sport is for a
you know, relatively tiny country like New Zealand, as isolated
as we are, we have to be having a presence
in some of those key markets and outside of the
UK and Europe, Asia and North America. With what's coming
(34:10):
up in the future around World Cups O there is
We've talked about so a lot of meetings talking about
the next five to ten years of the sport and
how we can play a leadership role in advocating opportunities
in those markets and by the same token, helping create
values so that ultimately we can invest back in the
game at all levels here and I think that's missed sometimes.
You know, people see either the all Blacks or myself
(34:33):
in different parts of the world. This is ultimately to
grow value, to invest to make sure New Zealand Rugby
stays strong and the game can be fostered at all levels.
That's all we're trying to achieve here, and so we
see us invest into you know, I was in Kai
Tai yesterday, great session with North and Rugby and they're
doing this amazing little development up and around one of
them grounds. There as a regional academy in that area.
(34:54):
That's only been possible because of the revenue growth we've
had in New Zealand rugby and the ability to invest
into some of those initiatives. And that's happening, believe it
or not. That's happening around a ranger, lots of little
different areas in the country at the moment, which is
really happening for US.
Speaker 5 (35:08):
Scot If we look at HITS at twenty twenty five,
I guess your coaching team had a few changes last year.
How did how did they you know, learn and grow
and evolve and is that settled for this year going
to stay the same?
Speaker 6 (35:21):
Yeah, yep, it's a it's a group that were headed
end of the tour to probably just started implumt a
bit of a DNA how we wanted to play the
game and had the ball in their hands for long
periods of time and put a lot of pressure on teams.
So that will continue. You know, like I said, you
look at you look at the trends, you look at
(35:42):
how oppositions play. You look at the French because that's
who we're playing next, and you see the opportunities but
also their threats. You know, they're going to bring a
hell of a team out. You know, Fabian Guilty has
been there seven years. He knows his way around the
rugby world. He's got a really good dep deep squad,
folly old players that all could play test football. There's
enough experience, enough cohesion, and you know, people say, oh
(36:06):
what sort of team they got to playing out. They're
going to bring out a good team, you know, and
that their season finishes one the final of the top
forty in finishes a week later because of the Olympics.
That's just the way the season's gone. And but they'll
bring them. You know, we expect them to bring out
the Intermax and Panos and whoever is in that final.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
You cano come, you can because there's been talk about
obviously a B team, but you reckon the top players
will come down to yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (36:33):
Yeah, I think I think it's you have to have
that oncet, don't you otherwise? You know, you know, we
know we've last year. You never assume anything at Test footy.
You know, you're you're one card away, a couple of
penalties away from being in the corner, and then your
games change really quickly. And the quality and the depth,
(36:55):
especially in the French squad from the twenties that have
come through. So when what he's done in the last
couple of summers of their summer tours, you know, he's
taken a group of players they haven't been in their finals,
but they're playing now. You know, Bill Buddy and Yeah
and all those guys are coming through, you know, Jellybear,
all of them can step up. You look at the
(37:17):
department off and Luc who came on and wow. You know,
so the depth and quality is there is going to
be a hell of a Test series. You know, it's
the last time we'll get probably three games and one
one country, you know, a true, a true series in
that regard over the period of time. So we're expecting
the best of them.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Jordi will you you talk about him early. Is he
going to be available for that French series you look
to maybe get him back to New Zealand and restam.
Speaker 6 (37:42):
Yeah, Look, it depends how deep part of us was
him to be available for sure, that was part of
the deal. That's why it works so well and how
they've looked after him. Unfouse, We've got some really good
centers in Leinster and just the way it works with
their final for the u RC. You know here we
definitely come back and be available.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
How do you balance I guess this cause is second.
You're obviously selecting on form versus reputational players that have
done the job for you previously in an all black stusey.
What's the balance that you look for as a coach?
Speaker 6 (38:11):
A good question. Current form is important and look you
still know the class that there's going to be there,
and some guys step up at test footy consistently, doesn't
matter if they're playing here Japan, we'll come back from oversee.
They've just got the ability to step up really quickly.
But a little bit on foreign forming combinations. So look,
(38:31):
but as this she has come on, it's chucked up
some great young potentials and names and some some players
they have been around a while and that's good. That's
what we want, you know, around the ability to make
it as tough as we possibly can and be consistent
each week, and players are doing that. So it's a
balance of the two.
Speaker 5 (38:50):
How much do you live in them now and how
much do you plan ahead when you you know, obviously
the World Cups big ticular item we talked about Richard
Wong about there's others like leicesterifying and Nook who's coming
home next year? So what's the balance between living in
the now and thinking where do I have to be
in twelve twenty four months time?
Speaker 6 (39:11):
Yeah? Great, so you know your squad see if you
look at twenty seven because you have to there's no
development time for me, one of the only teams really
that in World rugby that you know developments, you win
and develop and you know I learned that through the twenties.
(39:31):
You know, you don't develop them when that's so you
have to have the balance of the two and that's
a real art. There's a skill you know, giving guys opportunities,
but having to win the test match in front of you,
you know, the season last year there was a balance
of the of the two and we've had your ten
debutants this year. If you get four or five and
the next next two years, you start to slidify your group.
(39:52):
There's always bolted, there's always opportunities, there's always I want
to make that really clear, So don't shut any doors.
But then you build the cohesion and understanding and teams
that have to go through tough tours, tough tests and
build relationships and cohesion. They know how to win game
manage together. So then you start to still vide the
(40:13):
group at the back end.
Speaker 5 (40:14):
Just in terms of that selection stopped me if I'm
wrong here, but how much does it evolve week to week?
Because my senses that the loss in Wellington to the
Pumas the following week at eden Park you may have
been given guys more opportunities had you not lost that test.
So is there is there that sort of swing in
(40:35):
a week? Results have a big factor in selection.
Speaker 6 (40:41):
They can do they can do, you know, like that's
a prime example. I think you're you're right, there probably
would have been some more opportunities, but Eden Park so
dear to us it deserves the honoring of our best
test team for that for that week. And as I
said like Argentina were good, you know, and we had
you know, six bodies come back the next week two
(41:01):
which helped. So you know, you all of a sudden
you get a bench, you know, and things. You get
a depth in your squad straight away, and you've got
to respect the team that you're playing in and also
the beautiful place of Eden Park.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
You mentioned Eden Park September the sixth. Yeah, how much
you're looking forward to that test already? The spring Box
coming to town.
Speaker 6 (41:21):
Yeah, a great opportunity. You know, it's on the line,
isn't it. Those are the ones you want to play
in and those ones that get Rugby or every New
Zealanders so everyone excited about So, yeah, it's definitely on
their calendar. It's exciting.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
We've seen the spring Box use a six to two
and a seven to one bench in France go with
it as well, seven to one. Any chance we see
the All Blacks go a seven to one bench at
some point under Scott Robertson.
Speaker 6 (41:48):
Well, it's in the laws. So people say, you know,
the first thing you're clear is you know, is it right? Well,
that's right because in the laws you can do it.
And the way they play teams play, especially now, and
the fatigue that comes in the games affords the impacts
the context that they have so high, so they've got
the immediate effect on the game, especially after halftime. And
(42:12):
you know, when you can bring an initial loose forward
makes a massive difference to it. Yeah, so you look
at it. You know, we've considered it ourselves. We believe
that wasn't quite We went it was it quite week
for it. But look it's working and renovative and you've
you've got to you've got to keep it on that trend.
Speaker 5 (42:32):
So it's deffie an option one smoky out there at
the moment for you both, Haylen Ponger. Any any sense
that he may come over and have a crack at
rugby in the next year or two.
Speaker 4 (42:49):
Are you're hitting me there, mate, I'm not. I'm not
across seen maybe, but I haven't seen that.
Speaker 6 (42:55):
Oh look, look obviously he's done it, you know, a
few years ago as well. He's obviously showed us tim
and interest. But if he comes to us, he will
have a conversation. You always do was keep the door open.
But he's a hell of a player, isn't he. If
he shows interest, you know, there could be a conversation
if he gets so that.
Speaker 5 (43:14):
What about more broadly, I guess about the NRL converts
in rugby union.
Speaker 7 (43:19):
We've seen.
Speaker 5 (43:21):
Rogers, two of us, Shik, Joseph Suili, Sonny, but Williams
back in time. What what's your view about whether it
works and maybe how long a successful transition would take?
Speaker 6 (43:35):
Yeah, good, good question. Traditionally, the backs or outside backs
that come over, you know, especially or even you look
back and you know the lotty to carry days, don't you.
You know Wendle Sailor Rogers, Yeah, Matt Rodgers and those
sorts of guys. You know, like they've got a role
defend the last or second to last on the wing.
(43:55):
So they've got crearly great ball carriers, good defenders, tacklers, sorry,
but the defensive stuff on the edge. That those are
the ones who made the transition. So you look at Sonny,
they're a great So everyone's different. Firstly, different skill sets.
Sunny when he came over, he was still in his
early twenties. He'd gone through Toulon, had a great period
(44:18):
of you know, he was mentored by Tana. He had
a period of time where he learned the game because
you go to learn the game if you've been out
for a period of time and then how long how
quickly can you transition? The great thing is for him
is because his long levers is a big man, he
could get his arms free, just carried hard, got his
shoulders through the line and had a good offload. So
(44:41):
he came to a great club and well coached with
Dave Rennie and the Chiefs, and all of a sudden
he was fast tracked. So everyone's going to be different
how quickly you come through, But probably the best ones
and the best transitions. I've got a multi skill set,
and you know it's up to them how quickly they transition.
Speaker 7 (45:03):
JK.
Speaker 5 (45:04):
Mark ellis they went the other ways. You think you
two could have hit a crack believed well, I did.
Speaker 6 (45:10):
Play a little bit when I was going up and
had a couple offers along the way. You know, yeah, but.
Speaker 7 (45:15):
It was her game calling.
Speaker 6 (45:17):
Oh a lot of Britain go there, that's Jesus more
in trouble. But I think I think you know that
you look at their game and you learn a lot
of it. You know, Look, Rugby follows a lot of
the trends in league. You know, with the way they're defend.
They back in the day, they're shutting. Now they're coming
(45:38):
off and getting in passing lanes and league defense, speed,
leagues of texts. You spend a lot of time looking
at them, and you might and but our Game two
is so innovative and you know, a lot more kicking
and stuff in it as well. But yeah, we can
learn off each other. But yeah, definitely definitely a back row.
Speaker 3 (45:57):
Yeah, as we wrap this up, guys, final question for
both of you help for Raiser, what does success look
like for the All Blacks and twenty twenty five? And
for Mark Robinson what does it broad look like for
New Zealand rugby success in twenty two You decide between
yourselves so you.
Speaker 4 (46:11):
Oh, look, I've spoken to a few of the things
through through the interview, Elliott, but we've got a big
focus this year on the opportunity to look at our model,
the overall model and system and sustainability of the game.
So we're looking forward to taking the opportunity to work
with stakeholders and partnering to grow that. That's really important
to us. Clearly on the field, you know, it's a
(46:33):
big year with the Black Ferns in terms of Rugby
World Cup twenty five, it's our pinnacle event this year.
And then we've just talked a bit or a lot
about the All Blacks this year and the opportunities they have.
It's just an incredible schedule domestically and internationally. You know,
we haven't touched on the Chicago game today, but you know,
selling that well in that market that quickly is phenomenal.
(46:56):
So there's there's lots of great opportunities on the field
with our teams and Blacks, and then at the community game,
as I said, we've got just loads of really good
innovation coming into that space. Excited about some really good signs.
In the last two years, we've had consecutive significant growth
in some areas of the game which are really positive
about as well. So so yeah, look, if you if
(47:18):
you're sort of if you chunk those areas up, there's
there's clearly winning it on the on the global stage,
there's community and what's dear to us here and growing
that and then's our model and part of that, I
guess the final point would be continuing to grow our
commercial reach and our digital reach, because that's that's the
basis for growing value in the game and being able
to reinvest back into it. So along the way there's
(47:40):
some real key measures and what we do there. So
it's always heaps on guys, but we're you know, we're
equally passionate about our areas and what we're trying to
achieve and looking forward to the year.
Speaker 6 (47:50):
Yeah, sere with the Black fans as well. They're a
bit to do with nun Bunting. One way of set
it up. Everyone's lined with another demon black from the coaches,
so you know with Ubunting and Arabia, couple of them
so all the best you know, we watch from a
farm connecting. So how exciting is that we learn a
bit off them as well? You always do. Success for
(48:10):
us is actually keep creating, but finishing and executing, you know,
both sides of the ball. It's really critical and and
just you just keep temping ours you know, our DNA
on the game, keep being trusted, trusting ourselves and being
brave and playing some good footy and then we'll get results.
Speaker 7 (48:30):
How important is it?
Speaker 5 (48:31):
Just lastly that you do have the the faith and
trust and confidence to stick with what you want to
do and not.
Speaker 7 (48:40):
Follow others or bowl to pressure or results.
Speaker 5 (48:42):
But but if it doesn't work, you have the faith
to stick with what stylistically you want to do.
Speaker 6 (48:49):
Yeah, there's the imbalance of it. You've still got to
have people that challenge your thoughts or on it, but
thoughts on it. But you're still got to go back
to your the identity piece to what am I going
to stand by here? What's really important to us? Make
sure you have metrics that keep on top of it,
and someone on your shoulders. Well, just keep reminding you
either doing a good job or you could do the
(49:09):
like you guys.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
It's Scott Robertson. Thank you so Much's I on Rugby Direct.
It's been a great discussion. Thanks guys.
Speaker 4 (49:19):
Thanks guys, appreciate its.
Speaker 6 (49:22):
Rugby Direct.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
How would buds talks b That was Mirke Robinson and
Scott Robertson joining us on Rugby Direct. Hope you enjoyed
that chat with them, an extended chance to get into
some of the issues around New Zealand rugby. Hopefully it
answered some of your questions as listeners as well. All
thanks to our friends at Habit Health tackling all your
(49:44):
aches and pains from sport and work. Thanks to those
that help produce that podcast Andy Enuff for tying Get
All Together. We'll be back next week with more Rugby Direct.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
For more from News Talks, ed B, Listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio
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