July 8, 2025 • 28 mins
The dance between dependence and independence shapes every connection in our lives, yet few of us truly understand the patterns dictating our relationship behaviors. David and Hannah Sage unravel the complex spectrum of dependency – from the complete reliance we experience as infants to the fierce independence many strive for as adults.
Through vivid tree analogies and real-life examples, this thoughtful exploration reveals why neither extreme dependence nor rigid independence leads to fulfilling relationships. The hosts challenge the American ideal of complete self-reliance, pointing out that even the most "independent" among us rely constantly on others through the fabric of society, language, and cooperation.
The discussion takes a particularly illuminating turn when examining codependence – that tangled dynamic where one person's self-worth becomes enmeshed with another's needs. Using popular culture references like "The Notebook," the Sages show how media often romanticizes unhealthy dependency patterns. Ernest Hemingway's poignant quote about losing yourself while loving too much strikes at the heart of why codependence damages both individuals in a relationship.
Where does the balance lie? The podcast introduces interdependence as the relationship sweet spot – when two whole, capable people consciously choose to connect and collaborate because it enhances both lives. Drawing from Stephen Covey's principles of win-win thinking and synergy, the hosts demonstrate how interdependent relationships create something greater than either person could achieve alone – where one plus one equals three.
For anyone struggling with relationship patterns, this episode offers practical strategies to foster healthier connections: developing self-awareness about dependency tendencies, practicing honest communication, embracing vulnerability, and maintaining individual interests. The wisdom shared applies not just to romantic partnerships but to friendships, family dynamics, and workplace relationships.
Whether you're recovering from a codependent past or working to open up after years of fierce independence, this conversation provides a roadmap toward connections that nurture rather than deplete. Ready to transform how you relate to everyone in your life? Listen, reflect, and take one small step toward interdependence today.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Sage Solutions Podcast, where we talk
about all things personalgrowth, personal development and
becoming your best self.
My name is David Sage and I ama self-worth and confidence
coach with Sage CoachingSolutions.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hey guys, hannah Sage here, david's wife.
Hey guys, Hannah Sage here,david's wife.
I'm here with David in ourstudio and today we are going to
explore three key concepts thatshape how we connect with
others.
We're going to unpack somerelationship dynamics and
discuss independence,codependence and interdependence
.
All right, babe, take it away.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
As Hannah said, in today's topic we'll be going
through the various differentforms of dependency or lack
thereof, and how they have adeep influence on our
relationships with other people,not just our romantic
relationships, but ourfriendships, our familial
relationships and, to somedegree, every single person you
(01:03):
meet.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
But before we get into it, our goal with this
podcast is to share free,helpful tools with you and
anyone you know who is lookingto improve their life.
So take action, subscribe andshare this podcast with them.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
So I'm actually going to break it down even further
into four different topicsDependence, independence,
codependence and interdependence.
Understanding the differencebetween these isn't just
academic.
It's the key to unlockinghealthier, more fulfilling
connections with everyone inyour life.
So let's start with the firstone Dependence.
(01:40):
We all start in that same place.
Everyone starts fully dependentas infants.
We are completely reliant onour caregivers for survival.
It's a necessary and beautifulstage of life.
Nobody blames a baby for notbeing independent, but as we
(02:01):
grow, the goal is to move beyondthis.
The challenge is that sometimeswe carry some of the patterns
of dependence into our adultrelationships.
This can look like needingconstant validation from a
partner, being unable to makedecisions on your own, or
feeling a sense of panic at thethought of being alone at all.
(02:23):
It's a state of but I can'twithout you.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Like you said, there's a natural progression
from dependency to independence.
But as we get older youdefinitely need to take some
ownership and to grow away fromthat dependent state, Like as a
woman.
I think most women have dated aman who is very dependent on
(02:48):
his mom, kind of like a mama'sboy.
I'm sure lots of women canrelate here, and it's sweet for
a while until it honestlybecomes a very unattractive
quality, Unfortunately.
It's a good thing because theyhave a close relationship, but
(03:09):
it gets taken too far and itgets a little weird.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
There's nothing wrong with having a good relationship
with your mother as a man.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, but when you're 25 and mommy has to do
everything for you.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
That's well, yeah, you can have a good relationship
without being dependent onsomeone.
Now I want to be clear.
Barring extreme medical,physical or psychological
circumstances, no adult is fullydependent on another person.
(03:40):
Everyone has landed somewhereon that spectrum between full
dependence and 100% independence.
And if we're actually going totalk about the reality of
independence versus dependence,barring a couple extreme
exceptions, nobody is trulyindependent.
(04:03):
We don't live in a society whereevery single thing that you use
and every single thing that youdo has to be done by yourself
in order to survive.
If you look at the everydayproducts that you use, the
services that you use, the legalguarantees that we all have,
the house that was built, welive in society with other
(04:25):
people, and the foundation ofthat society is cooperation,
trust and dependence.
Through specialization andexchange, we do a job that helps
society and all of the membersof society.
Many other people do other jobsthat fill other roles of
society.
(04:45):
We are all depending on eachother to lift up and uphold all
of the different pieces ofsociety.
We are reliant on people thatare no longer with us and their
ideas and the things thatthey've built.
So I think it's important thatwe all acknowledge that nobody
is truly independent.
We rely on using the samelanguage.
(05:07):
We trust each other, that wordsmean the same thing, so that we
can actually communicateeffectively.
It's a very different way oflooking at the world, our lives
and society, but truly theamount of trust through unspoken
social rules, language andexchange of goods with things as
symbolic as money means that weput a lot of trust and
(05:30):
interdependence in each other sothat we can make society
function much more than havingto scrounge and survive on our
own.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
That's some good insights and a little funny in a
way, because I tend to considermyself a decently independent
person and in the past Iprobably would have said I'm
extremely independent.
But if I was actually extremelyindependent I'd be some lone
wolf girl living in a cave whodidn't know how to communicate
(06:02):
eating bugs for a living.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
With like no education.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
No language.
I'd be like growling, whodidn't know how to communicate
eating bugs for a living With,like, no education, no language
I'd be like growling, yeah.
So it's one thing to say I'mindependent, but to say I am
extremely independent personit's like, well, the shirt
you're wearing is from China.
Someone made that.
Like, I don't think you are asindependent as you say, but you
can have independent qualitiesthat you appreciate about
(06:28):
yourself.
Like I said, I tend to be afairly independent person and in
the past it's been tooindependent to the point where
when David and I were juststarted out dating, it was a
little bit of a slower datingexperience in the beginning
because it took me a while toopen up and to allow David
inside of my world that I hadcreated for myself because I had
(06:50):
considered myself soindependent.
It can be unhealthy either way.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
When taken to an extreme Exactly and in general,
if you were going to try andpush yourself towards one of the
extremes or the other in a veryunsophisticated, un-nuanced
approach, if you had to make itkind of a dichotomy, it's
(07:17):
probably better to be much moreon the independent side than
much more on the dependent side.
Being able to rely on yourself,being self-sufficient in at
least a chunk of areas or,comparatively, in the world and
in society in your life, beingable to primarily function on
(07:38):
your own, comes with itsbenefits.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Let's take a minute here to define independence.
Independence is aboutself-reliance.
It's having a strong sense ofself, being able to stand on
your own two feet, make your owndecisions and take care of your
needs without constant relianceon others.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
So as we go through this roller coaster of life,
changing our state of dependencefrom absolute dependence to
more and more independent,becoming more and more
self-reliant, we have thispendulum swing and as it swings,
it swings more and more towardsindependence.
(08:20):
This is the phase many of usstrive for and it's pretty
celebrated in our culture,especially in the US.
It's the I-can-do-it-myselfstage.
It's about self-reliance,making your own choices and
taking care of your own needs.
And don't get me wrong, ahealthy sense of independence is
(08:40):
a vital part of adulthood.
But if we swing the pendulumtoo far into this, it can lead
to isolation, becomes a state ofI don't need anyone.
This can manifest as areluctance to ask for help, a
fear of vulnerability andkeeping others at a distance to
protect our own autonomy.
(09:02):
While it feels safe, it canactually be incredibly lonely.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Right, that makes sense, because I feel like with
independence, you do need astrong sense of self, but that
needs to come before you canconnect effectively with other
people, so you don't lose yourown identity with other people
so you don't lose your ownidentity.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
It's almost like you have to go through this journey
of figuring out where your stateof dependence lies and over
time, like I said before, we allstart at full dependence and
you have to navigate this gameof life to find where your
dependence should end up falling.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Right, and it might be a little different for
different people.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Oh, 100% and that's okay.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
The Horsham Clinic states, while crucial for
personal growth, extremeindependence in relationships
can lead to a lack of deepconnection, as individuals may
struggle to rely on or acceptsupport from a partner.
I have a visual analogy to gowith this.
So for independence, imagine asturdy, well-rooted tree
(10:15):
standing tall on its own.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah, I think the tree analogy is an interesting
way of visualizing it.
I think if you were tovisualize independence going too
far, it would be like the treetrying to survive without the
dirt, the sun and the water.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Right, and obviously it's not going to make it very
far.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Now let's move on to a term that I'm sure most of you
have heard of Codependence.
This is a more complex andoften misunderstood concept.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Codependency is when two things grow to become
dependent upon one another, butthere's a little bit of a
different definition to thatwhen it comes to human
relationships.
In a codependent relationship,one person relies excessively on
another for emotional supportand validation, often to the
(11:08):
detriment of their own needs andwell-being.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
It's not just being clingy.
Codependence is a dysfunctionalrelationship pattern where one
or both people's self-esteem andemotional needs are overly
dependent on the other people'sself-esteem and emotional needs
are overly dependent on theother.
It's a dynamic where one personis often the giver and the
other is often the taker, butboth are locked in a cycle of
(11:34):
unhealthy reliance.
The giver usually enables thetaker's poor behavior and the
taker relies on the giver toavoid responsibility.
It's a state of I can'tfunction without you and you
can't function without meneeding you.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
It actually had me think of the movie the Notebook.
While often romanticized, theNotebook focuses on the
relationship between Allie andNoah.
It's an intense relationship,but it also showcases
codependency.
Their passionate love isentwined with a deep reliance on
each other, and their inabilityto be apart highlights a lack
(12:15):
of individual identity andboundaries, and they end up
self-sabotaging any otherrelationships and individual
growth that they would havebecause of their codependent
nature.
While this movie is seen as atimeless romance, it also
showcases poor expectations of arelationship and what you can
(12:38):
expect from someone else.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Like unrealistic expectations.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, I can't even imagine how many divorces
happened in 2004 after thatmovie came out.
Imagine all of these womencoming home from the movies and
saying why don't you love me theway that Noah loved Allie?
Oh man, those poor guys.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
So in these codependent relationships where
we have the roles of giver andtaker, it's often not that cut
and dry.
In some circumstances oneperson might be the giver and
the other might be the taker,and vice versa.
Having this fully enmeshed,multi-directional codependency,
(13:24):
that makes up a very complexrelationship.
This doesn't mean that alldependence in a relationship is
unhealthy.
This codependent giver-takerdynamic is different from
healthy dependence.
It's a loss of self in theother person.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
I actually have a great quote from one of my
favorite authors of all time,Ernest Hemingway the most
painful thing is losing yourselfin the process of loving
someone too much and forgettingthat you are special too.
Oh, that's a good one.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
And forgetting that you are special too.
Ooh, that's a good one.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Mm-hmm.
Melody Beattie, author ofCodependent no More and a
codependency expert, has a lotto say on this matter, so I
definitely recommend checkingout her book if this is starting
to resonate with you a littlebit.
But something that she says isthe surest way to make ourselves
crazy is to get involved inother people's business, and the
quickest way to become sane andhappy is to tend to our own
(14:22):
affairs.
After reading that, my firstthought went to codependent
relationships between parentsand kids.
I think we're kind ofhighlighting romantic
relationships, but I thinkcodependency shows up a lot of
times with a parent and a child,and a lot of times it's the
(14:43):
parent who has a hard timeletting go of the child and
allowing them to becomeindependent.
They need that dependency, sothey tend to hinder their child
from that growth, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Oh for sure this is kind of resonating with some of
the stuff that we've talkedabout in focusing on your locus
of control and sort of MelRobbins' let them theory where
if you're trying to controlother people, you're entangling
yourself in things that youdon't have full control over and
it's often going to make thingseven worse and make yourself
(15:24):
more frustrated.
I think if those quotes weretaken to an extreme they
probably wouldn't actually behelpful, but they're trying to
get across that in manycircumstances, trying to manage
other people's lives and notfocusing on managing your own
life is going to lead todysfunctional forms of
(15:45):
relationships and unhappiness inyour own life.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Going back to our tree analogy from Independence,
if you recall, I have one aswell for codependency.
If you recall, I have one aswell for codependency.
One tree has wrapped its rootscompletely around the other,
smothering and potentiallystrangling it, and neither can
thrive independently.
Or one tree is bending overcompletely to support a waning
(16:11):
tree, becoming crooked anddamaging itself to keep the
other one up.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
I think that's a really helpful picture, like the
visual of that, especially whenyou compare it to the first one
, Paints a pretty clear image inmy mind.
So if dependence is I need you,independence is I don't need
you, Independence is I don'tneed you, and then codependence
(16:40):
is this tangled we need eachother in an unhealthy way.
Then what's the goal?
Well, the goal, the sweet spot,the foundation of truly
thriving relationships isinterdependence.
Of truly thriving relationshipsis interdependence.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Interdependence is the state of we choose to
cooperate for our mutual benefit, all while maintaining your
individuality and autonomy.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
It's the beautiful synergistic space where two
whole independent people cometogether to create something
greater than the sum of theirparts.
It's not about losing yourself.
It's about enhancing yourselfthrough connection.
In an interdependentrelationship.
You are both self-reliant andmutually supportive.
(17:30):
You can function independently,but you choose to be together
because your lives are enrichedby it independently, but you
choose to be together becauseyour lives are enriched by it.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
It's a healthy give and take, with clean and healthy
boundaries, respectingindividual identities, open
communication and sharedresponsibilities.
Stephen Covey talks about thisin his book the Seven Habits of
Highly Effective People thatdependent people need others to
get what they want.
Independent people can get whatthey want through their own
(18:01):
efforts.
Interdependent people combinetheir own efforts with the
efforts of others to achievetheir greatest success.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
It's funny that you bring up Stephen Covey, because
two of his seven habits ofhighly effective people are
really built aroundinterdependence.
One of them is called thinkwin-win, which is, whenever
possible, try and find asolution that is not a win for
(18:30):
you and a lose for anotherperson, but whenever you can
find a solution that is a winfor the other person and a win
for you.
Not everything is a zero-sumgame In life.
Whenever you can aim forwin-win.
Another one of his habits ofhighly effective people is to
synergize.
Now what does that mean?
(18:51):
The definition of synergy isthe interaction or cooperation
of two or more people to producea combined effect greater than
the sum of their separate parts.
What does this mean?
It's when one plus one equalsthree.
It's when two people workingtogether create more benefit
(19:12):
than they could if they wereworking alone, and a lot of this
is that foundation of society.
I was talking aboutspecialization and exchange.
So if Hannah knows that I'mreally good at researching
things and I know that she'sreally good at building things,
we can delegate tasks to eachother that we know we are each
(19:33):
more suited for to get a betteroutcome, or even better yet.
We cooperate on something thatwe're both good at, which allows
us to come up with somethingbetter than either of us could
have alone.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Now many people might be thinking and this is a
question for you, david isinterdependence just a fancy
word for dependence?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Is interdependence just a fancy word for dependence
?
No, interdependence is theability to be primarily
self-reliant, but the wisdom tochoose when it's more beneficial
for yourself and or for othersfor you to depend on other
people, and when it's much morebeneficial for other people to
depend on you or for both of youto depend on each other, while
(20:21):
not being locked into having todo it that way.
This leaves room for thingslike win-win thinking and
synergy.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Very well said.
Dependency implies a need torely on someone else for your
well-being or identity.
Interdependence, as StephenCovey said, is when independent
people combine their own effortswith the efforts of others to
achieve their greatest success.
It's a choice to collaborateand support each other from a
(20:50):
place of strength and notweakness and not weakness.
Going back to my tree analogiesfor interdependence, think of
two strong, well-rooted treeswhose branches intertwine
gracefully, supporting eachother through storms but each
maintaining its own trunk androot system.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
I think this tree example shows in a highly visual
way how these different formsof dependence in our
relationships have an effect onthe individual, how it warps or
changes or supports the tree inits life, in its journey.
But what about when it comes tothe relationship In between any
(21:35):
two people?
When they form a socialconnection of any sort, whether
it's a romantic relationship, afriendship or anything else a
third entity is created.
You have Hannah, and then youhave me, and then you have our
relationship, and a lot of timesrelationship therapists or
counselors will talk about howyou have to support the health
(21:57):
of the relationship in additionto the health of the individuals
.
So I want to use an analogythat talks a bit more about how
these forms of dependence affectthe relationship.
Think of it like two strongpillars standing side by side to
support a magnificent arch.
If one pillar is weakdependence the arch crumbles.
(22:21):
If the pillars are too farapart full independence they
can't support anything together.
If they are leaning on eachother just to stay upright
codependence then they are bothunstable and easily knocked over
.
But when they stand strong ontheir own, side by side, not too
(22:43):
close, not too far apart, theycan create something beautiful
and enduring.
In this example, each pillarare the individuals making up
the relationship, but thestrength of the relationship or
the relationship itself is thearchway, not the pillars.
(23:04):
As we saw in the example, itseems that the healthiest
relationships, both for therelationship and for the
individuals, are built on afoundation of interdependence.
This isn't just a feel-goodidea.
There's science to back it up.
A fascinating meta-analysispublished in the Psychological
Bulletin looked at numerousstudies on cooperation and
competition.
(23:24):
The research consistently foundthat cooperation, a key element
of interdependence, leads tohigher achievement and greater
psychological health thanindividualistic or competitive
approaches.
In essence, we are wired tothrive when we work together in
healthy, interdependent ways.
(23:46):
So how do we cultivate this inour everyday lives?
Here are a few strategies.
To start, let's buildself-awareness.
Understand your own tendencies.
Do you lean towards dependence,needing constant reassurance,
or are you fiercely independent,pushing away help?
(24:06):
Acknowledging your startingpoint is the first step.
Next, practice clear and honestcommunication.
In interdependent relationships,individuals can express their
needs and boundaries withoutfear of judgment or abandonment.
This means using I statements,for example.
Instead of saying you neverhelped me, you could say I feel
(24:29):
overwhelmed and would appreciateyour help with this.
Your help with this, or, aswe've talked about in previous
episodes, the story that I'mtelling myself is that.
And then you fill in the blank.
Third, embrace vulnerability.
This is a tough one for manypeople, especially those who
(24:50):
pride themselves on theirindependence, but true
interdependence requires thecourage to be vulnerable, to
admit when you need help and toallow others to see your
authentic self.
Finally, maintain your owninterests and friendships.
In an interdependentrelationship or partnership.
(25:13):
You don't have to do everythingtogether.
Having your own hobbies,passions and friends outside of
the relationship strengthensyour sense of self, making you a
stronger pillar in the arch.
I want to leave you with apowerful quote from the
brilliant writer and activistBell Hooks.
(25:33):
She said to be loving is to beopen to grief, to despair, to
anger and to other emotionsbesides just rapturous joy.
To be loving is to be open tothe full range of human feeling.
Interdependence is about beingopen to that full range of human
(25:53):
feelings.
Open to that full range ofhuman feelings both in ourselves
and in others.
You're not going to be perfect.
Relationships are messy andit's not always easy, but it is
the path to the most profoundand lasting connections.
So I want to invite you toreflect on your relationships.
Want to invite you to reflecton your relationships.
(26:14):
Where do you see patterns ofdependence, interdependence or
codependence, and how can youtake one small step towards
fostering more interdependence?
It could be as simple as askingfor help when you need it, or
offering support to someonewithout expecting anything in
return.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
The key takeaway of this podcast is this Strive for
healthy interdependence in yourrelationships.
Build your independence,understand where you end and
others begin, and choose toconnect from a place of
wholeness, not neediness.
Your relationships and yourlife will be infinitely richer
for it, not neediness yourrelationships and your life will
(26:59):
be infinitely richer for it.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
And remember you are enough and you deserve to fill
up your inner cup with happiness, confidence and self-compassion
.
Thank you for listening to theSage Solutions Podcast.
Your time is valuable and I'mso glad you choose to learn and
grow here with me.
If you haven't already, don'tforget to subscribe so you don't
(27:28):
miss out on more Sage advice.
One last thing the legallanguage.
This podcast is for educationaland informational purposes only
.
No coaching client relationshipis formed.
It is not intended as asubstitute for the personalized
(27:50):
advice of a physician,professional coach,
psychotherapist or otherqualified professional.
Welcome to the Sage Solutions Podcast, where we talk
about all things personalgrowth, personal development and
becoming your best self.
My name is David Sage and I ama self-worth and confidence
coach with Sage CoachingSolutions.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hey guys, hannah Sage here, david's wife.
Hey guys, Hannah Sage here,david's wife.
I'm here with David in ourstudio and today we are going to
explore three key concepts thatshape how we connect with
others.
We're going to unpack somerelationship dynamics and
discuss independence,codependence and interdependence
.
All right, babe, take it away.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
As Hannah said, in today's topic we'll be going
through the various differentforms of dependency or lack
thereof, and how they have adeep influence on our
relationships with other people,not just our romantic
relationships, but ourfriendships, our familial
relationships and, to somedegree, every single person you
(01:03):
meet.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
But before we get into it, our goal with this
podcast is to share free,helpful tools with you and
anyone you know who is lookingto improve their life.
So take action, subscribe andshare this podcast with them.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
So I'm actually going to break it down even further
into four different topicsDependence, independence,
codependence and interdependence.
Understanding the differencebetween these isn't just
academic.
It's the key to unlockinghealthier, more fulfilling
connections with everyone inyour life.
So let's start with the firstone Dependence.
(01:40):
We all start in that same place.
Everyone starts fully dependentas infants.
We are completely reliant onour caregivers for survival.
It's a necessary and beautifulstage of life.
Nobody blames a baby for notbeing independent, but as we
(02:01):
grow, the goal is to move beyondthis.
The challenge is that sometimeswe carry some of the patterns
of dependence into our adultrelationships.
This can look like needingconstant validation from a
partner, being unable to makedecisions on your own, or
feeling a sense of panic at thethought of being alone at all.
(02:23):
It's a state of but I can'twithout you.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Like you said, there's a natural progression
from dependency to independence.
But as we get older youdefinitely need to take some
ownership and to grow away fromthat dependent state, Like as a
woman.
I think most women have dated aman who is very dependent on
(02:48):
his mom, kind of like a mama'sboy.
I'm sure lots of women canrelate here, and it's sweet for
a while until it honestlybecomes a very unattractive
quality, Unfortunately.
It's a good thing because theyhave a close relationship, but
(03:09):
it gets taken too far and itgets a little weird.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
There's nothing wrong with having a good relationship
with your mother as a man.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, but when you're 25 and mommy has to do
everything for you.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
That's well, yeah, you can have a good relationship
without being dependent onsomeone.
Now I want to be clear.
Barring extreme medical,physical or psychological
circumstances, no adult is fullydependent on another person.
(03:40):
Everyone has landed somewhereon that spectrum between full
dependence and 100% independence.
And if we're actually going totalk about the reality of
independence versus dependence,barring a couple extreme
exceptions, nobody is trulyindependent.
(04:03):
We don't live in a society whereevery single thing that you use
and every single thing that youdo has to be done by yourself
in order to survive.
If you look at the everydayproducts that you use, the
services that you use, the legalguarantees that we all have,
the house that was built, welive in society with other
(04:25):
people, and the foundation ofthat society is cooperation,
trust and dependence.
Through specialization andexchange, we do a job that helps
society and all of the membersof society.
Many other people do other jobsthat fill other roles of
society.
(04:45):
We are all depending on eachother to lift up and uphold all
of the different pieces ofsociety.
We are reliant on people thatare no longer with us and their
ideas and the things thatthey've built.
So I think it's important thatwe all acknowledge that nobody
is truly independent.
We rely on using the samelanguage.
(05:07):
We trust each other, that wordsmean the same thing, so that we
can actually communicateeffectively.
It's a very different way oflooking at the world, our lives
and society, but truly theamount of trust through unspoken
social rules, language andexchange of goods with things as
symbolic as money means that weput a lot of trust and
(05:30):
interdependence in each other sothat we can make society
function much more than havingto scrounge and survive on our
own.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
That's some good insights and a little funny in a
way, because I tend to considermyself a decently independent
person and in the past Iprobably would have said I'm
extremely independent.
But if I was actually extremelyindependent I'd be some lone
wolf girl living in a cave whodidn't know how to communicate
(06:02):
eating bugs for a living.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
With like no education.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
No language.
I'd be like growling, whodidn't know how to communicate
eating bugs for a living With,like, no education, no language
I'd be like growling, yeah.
So it's one thing to say I'mindependent, but to say I am
extremely independent personit's like, well, the shirt
you're wearing is from China.
Someone made that.
Like, I don't think you are asindependent as you say, but you
can have independent qualitiesthat you appreciate about
(06:28):
yourself.
Like I said, I tend to be afairly independent person and in
the past it's been tooindependent to the point where
when David and I were juststarted out dating, it was a
little bit of a slower datingexperience in the beginning
because it took me a while toopen up and to allow David
inside of my world that I hadcreated for myself because I had
(06:50):
considered myself soindependent.
It can be unhealthy either way.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
When taken to an extreme Exactly and in general,
if you were going to try andpush yourself towards one of the
extremes or the other in a veryunsophisticated, un-nuanced
approach, if you had to make itkind of a dichotomy, it's
(07:17):
probably better to be much moreon the independent side than
much more on the dependent side.
Being able to rely on yourself,being self-sufficient in at
least a chunk of areas or,comparatively, in the world and
in society in your life, beingable to primarily function on
(07:38):
your own, comes with itsbenefits.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Let's take a minute here to define independence.
Independence is aboutself-reliance.
It's having a strong sense ofself, being able to stand on
your own two feet, make your owndecisions and take care of your
needs without constant relianceon others.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
So as we go through this roller coaster of life,
changing our state of dependencefrom absolute dependence to
more and more independent,becoming more and more
self-reliant, we have thispendulum swing and as it swings,
it swings more and more towardsindependence.
(08:20):
This is the phase many of usstrive for and it's pretty
celebrated in our culture,especially in the US.
It's the I-can-do-it-myselfstage.
It's about self-reliance,making your own choices and
taking care of your own needs.
And don't get me wrong, ahealthy sense of independence is
(08:40):
a vital part of adulthood.
But if we swing the pendulumtoo far into this, it can lead
to isolation, becomes a state ofI don't need anyone.
This can manifest as areluctance to ask for help, a
fear of vulnerability andkeeping others at a distance to
protect our own autonomy.
(09:02):
While it feels safe, it canactually be incredibly lonely.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Right, that makes sense, because I feel like with
independence, you do need astrong sense of self, but that
needs to come before you canconnect effectively with other
people, so you don't lose yourown identity with other people
so you don't lose your ownidentity.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
It's almost like you have to go through this journey
of figuring out where your stateof dependence lies and over
time, like I said before, we allstart at full dependence and
you have to navigate this gameof life to find where your
dependence should end up falling.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Right, and it might be a little different for
different people.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Oh, 100% and that's okay.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
The Horsham Clinic states, while crucial for
personal growth, extremeindependence in relationships
can lead to a lack of deepconnection, as individuals may
struggle to rely on or acceptsupport from a partner.
I have a visual analogy to gowith this.
So for independence, imagine asturdy, well-rooted tree
(10:15):
standing tall on its own.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah, I think the tree analogy is an interesting
way of visualizing it.
I think if you were tovisualize independence going too
far, it would be like the treetrying to survive without the
dirt, the sun and the water.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Right, and obviously it's not going to make it very
far.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Now let's move on to a term that I'm sure most of you
have heard of Codependence.
This is a more complex andoften misunderstood concept.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Codependency is when two things grow to become
dependent upon one another, butthere's a little bit of a
different definition to thatwhen it comes to human
relationships.
In a codependent relationship,one person relies excessively on
another for emotional supportand validation, often to the
(11:08):
detriment of their own needs andwell-being.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
It's not just being clingy.
Codependence is a dysfunctionalrelationship pattern where one
or both people's self-esteem andemotional needs are overly
dependent on the other people'sself-esteem and emotional needs
are overly dependent on theother.
It's a dynamic where one personis often the giver and the
other is often the taker, butboth are locked in a cycle of
(11:34):
unhealthy reliance.
The giver usually enables thetaker's poor behavior and the
taker relies on the giver toavoid responsibility.
It's a state of I can'tfunction without you and you
can't function without meneeding you.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
It actually had me think of the movie the Notebook.
While often romanticized, theNotebook focuses on the
relationship between Allie andNoah.
It's an intense relationship,but it also showcases
codependency.
Their passionate love isentwined with a deep reliance on
each other, and their inabilityto be apart highlights a lack
(12:15):
of individual identity andboundaries, and they end up
self-sabotaging any otherrelationships and individual
growth that they would havebecause of their codependent
nature.
While this movie is seen as atimeless romance, it also
showcases poor expectations of arelationship and what you can
(12:38):
expect from someone else.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Like unrealistic expectations.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, I can't even imagine how many divorces
happened in 2004 after thatmovie came out.
Imagine all of these womencoming home from the movies and
saying why don't you love me theway that Noah loved Allie?
Oh man, those poor guys.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
So in these codependent relationships where
we have the roles of giver andtaker, it's often not that cut
and dry.
In some circumstances oneperson might be the giver and
the other might be the taker,and vice versa.
Having this fully enmeshed,multi-directional codependency,
(13:24):
that makes up a very complexrelationship.
This doesn't mean that alldependence in a relationship is
unhealthy.
This codependent giver-takerdynamic is different from
healthy dependence.
It's a loss of self in theother person.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
I actually have a great quote from one of my
favorite authors of all time,Ernest Hemingway the most
painful thing is losing yourselfin the process of loving
someone too much and forgettingthat you are special too.
Oh, that's a good one.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
And forgetting that you are special too.
Ooh, that's a good one.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Mm-hmm.
Melody Beattie, author ofCodependent no More and a
codependency expert, has a lotto say on this matter, so I
definitely recommend checkingout her book if this is starting
to resonate with you a littlebit.
But something that she says isthe surest way to make ourselves
crazy is to get involved inother people's business, and the
quickest way to become sane andhappy is to tend to our own
(14:22):
affairs.
After reading that, my firstthought went to codependent
relationships between parentsand kids.
I think we're kind ofhighlighting romantic
relationships, but I thinkcodependency shows up a lot of
times with a parent and a child,and a lot of times it's the
(14:43):
parent who has a hard timeletting go of the child and
allowing them to becomeindependent.
They need that dependency, sothey tend to hinder their child
from that growth, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Oh for sure this is kind of resonating with some of
the stuff that we've talkedabout in focusing on your locus
of control and sort of MelRobbins' let them theory where
if you're trying to controlother people, you're entangling
yourself in things that youdon't have full control over and
it's often going to make thingseven worse and make yourself
(15:24):
more frustrated.
I think if those quotes weretaken to an extreme they
probably wouldn't actually behelpful, but they're trying to
get across that in manycircumstances, trying to manage
other people's lives and notfocusing on managing your own
life is going to lead todysfunctional forms of
(15:45):
relationships and unhappiness inyour own life.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Going back to our tree analogy from Independence,
if you recall, I have one aswell for codependency.
If you recall, I have one aswell for codependency.
One tree has wrapped its rootscompletely around the other,
smothering and potentiallystrangling it, and neither can
thrive independently.
Or one tree is bending overcompletely to support a waning
(16:11):
tree, becoming crooked anddamaging itself to keep the
other one up.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
I think that's a really helpful picture, like the
visual of that, especially whenyou compare it to the first one
, Paints a pretty clear image inmy mind.
So if dependence is I need you,independence is I don't need
you, Independence is I don'tneed you, and then codependence
(16:40):
is this tangled we need eachother in an unhealthy way.
Then what's the goal?
Well, the goal, the sweet spot,the foundation of truly
thriving relationships isinterdependence.
Of truly thriving relationshipsis interdependence.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Interdependence is the state of we choose to
cooperate for our mutual benefit, all while maintaining your
individuality and autonomy.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
It's the beautiful synergistic space where two
whole independent people cometogether to create something
greater than the sum of theirparts.
It's not about losing yourself.
It's about enhancing yourselfthrough connection.
In an interdependentrelationship.
You are both self-reliant andmutually supportive.
(17:30):
You can function independently,but you choose to be together
because your lives are enrichedby it independently, but you
choose to be together becauseyour lives are enriched by it.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
It's a healthy give and take, with clean and healthy
boundaries, respectingindividual identities, open
communication and sharedresponsibilities.
Stephen Covey talks about thisin his book the Seven Habits of
Highly Effective People thatdependent people need others to
get what they want.
Independent people can get whatthey want through their own
(18:01):
efforts.
Interdependent people combinetheir own efforts with the
efforts of others to achievetheir greatest success.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
It's funny that you bring up Stephen Covey, because
two of his seven habits ofhighly effective people are
really built aroundinterdependence.
One of them is called thinkwin-win, which is, whenever
possible, try and find asolution that is not a win for
(18:30):
you and a lose for anotherperson, but whenever you can
find a solution that is a winfor the other person and a win
for you.
Not everything is a zero-sumgame In life.
Whenever you can aim forwin-win.
Another one of his habits ofhighly effective people is to
synergize.
Now what does that mean?
(18:51):
The definition of synergy isthe interaction or cooperation
of two or more people to producea combined effect greater than
the sum of their separate parts.
What does this mean?
It's when one plus one equalsthree.
It's when two people workingtogether create more benefit
(19:12):
than they could if they wereworking alone, and a lot of this
is that foundation of society.
I was talking aboutspecialization and exchange.
So if Hannah knows that I'mreally good at researching
things and I know that she'sreally good at building things,
we can delegate tasks to eachother that we know we are each
(19:33):
more suited for to get a betteroutcome, or even better yet.
We cooperate on something thatwe're both good at, which allows
us to come up with somethingbetter than either of us could
have alone.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Now many people might be thinking and this is a
question for you, david isinterdependence just a fancy
word for dependence?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Is interdependence just a fancy word for dependence
?
No, interdependence is theability to be primarily
self-reliant, but the wisdom tochoose when it's more beneficial
for yourself and or for othersfor you to depend on other
people, and when it's much morebeneficial for other people to
depend on you or for both of youto depend on each other, while
(20:21):
not being locked into having todo it that way.
This leaves room for thingslike win-win thinking and
synergy.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Very well said.
Dependency implies a need torely on someone else for your
well-being or identity.
Interdependence, as StephenCovey said, is when independent
people combine their own effortswith the efforts of others to
achieve their greatest success.
It's a choice to collaborateand support each other from a
(20:50):
place of strength and notweakness and not weakness.
Going back to my tree analogiesfor interdependence, think of
two strong, well-rooted treeswhose branches intertwine
gracefully, supporting eachother through storms but each
maintaining its own trunk androot system.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
I think this tree example shows in a highly visual
way how these different formsof dependence in our
relationships have an effect onthe individual, how it warps or
changes or supports the tree inits life, in its journey.
But what about when it comes tothe relationship In between any
(21:35):
two people?
When they form a socialconnection of any sort, whether
it's a romantic relationship, afriendship or anything else a
third entity is created.
You have Hannah, and then youhave me, and then you have our
relationship, and a lot of timesrelationship therapists or
counselors will talk about howyou have to support the health
(21:57):
of the relationship in additionto the health of the individuals
.
So I want to use an analogythat talks a bit more about how
these forms of dependence affectthe relationship.
Think of it like two strongpillars standing side by side to
support a magnificent arch.
If one pillar is weakdependence the arch crumbles.
(22:21):
If the pillars are too farapart full independence they
can't support anything together.
If they are leaning on eachother just to stay upright
codependence then they are bothunstable and easily knocked over
.
But when they stand strong ontheir own, side by side, not too
(22:43):
close, not too far apart, theycan create something beautiful
and enduring.
In this example, each pillarare the individuals making up
the relationship, but thestrength of the relationship or
the relationship itself is thearchway, not the pillars.
(23:04):
As we saw in the example, itseems that the healthiest
relationships, both for therelationship and for the
individuals, are built on afoundation of interdependence.
This isn't just a feel-goodidea.
There's science to back it up.
A fascinating meta-analysispublished in the Psychological
Bulletin looked at numerousstudies on cooperation and
competition.
(23:24):
The research consistently foundthat cooperation, a key element
of interdependence, leads tohigher achievement and greater
psychological health thanindividualistic or competitive
approaches.
In essence, we are wired tothrive when we work together in
healthy, interdependent ways.
(23:46):
So how do we cultivate this inour everyday lives?
Here are a few strategies.
To start, let's buildself-awareness.
Understand your own tendencies.
Do you lean towards dependence,needing constant reassurance,
or are you fiercely independent,pushing away help?
(24:06):
Acknowledging your startingpoint is the first step.
Next, practice clear and honestcommunication.
In interdependent relationships,individuals can express their
needs and boundaries withoutfear of judgment or abandonment.
This means using I statements,for example.
Instead of saying you neverhelped me, you could say I feel
(24:29):
overwhelmed and would appreciateyour help with this.
Your help with this, or, aswe've talked about in previous
episodes, the story that I'mtelling myself is that.
And then you fill in the blank.
Third, embrace vulnerability.
This is a tough one for manypeople, especially those who
(24:50):
pride themselves on theirindependence, but true
interdependence requires thecourage to be vulnerable, to
admit when you need help and toallow others to see your
authentic self.
Finally, maintain your owninterests and friendships.
In an interdependentrelationship or partnership.
(25:13):
You don't have to do everythingtogether.
Having your own hobbies,passions and friends outside of
the relationship strengthensyour sense of self, making you a
stronger pillar in the arch.
I want to leave you with apowerful quote from the
brilliant writer and activistBell Hooks.
(25:33):
She said to be loving is to beopen to grief, to despair, to
anger and to other emotionsbesides just rapturous joy.
To be loving is to be open tothe full range of human feeling.
Interdependence is about beingopen to that full range of human
(25:53):
feelings.
Open to that full range ofhuman feelings both in ourselves
and in others.
You're not going to be perfect.
Relationships are messy andit's not always easy, but it is
the path to the most profoundand lasting connections.
So I want to invite you toreflect on your relationships.
Want to invite you to reflecton your relationships.
(26:14):
Where do you see patterns ofdependence, interdependence or
codependence, and how can youtake one small step towards
fostering more interdependence?
It could be as simple as askingfor help when you need it, or
offering support to someonewithout expecting anything in
return.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
The key takeaway of this podcast is this Strive for
healthy interdependence in yourrelationships.
Build your independence,understand where you end and
others begin, and choose toconnect from a place of
wholeness, not neediness.
Your relationships and yourlife will be infinitely richer
for it, not neediness yourrelationships and your life will
(26:59):
be infinitely richer for it.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
And remember you are enough and you deserve to fill
up your inner cup with happiness, confidence and self-compassion
.
Thank you for listening to theSage Solutions Podcast.
Your time is valuable and I'mso glad you choose to learn and
grow here with me.
If you haven't already, don'tforget to subscribe so you don't
(27:28):
miss out on more Sage advice.
One last thing the legallanguage.
This podcast is for educationaland informational purposes only
.
No coaching client relationshipis formed.
It is not intended as asubstitute for the personalized
(27:50):
advice of a physician,professional coach,
psychotherapist or otherqualified professional.
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