July 27, 2025 • 42 mins
Feeling overwhelmed by menopause and weight gain? Winnie Kok, a mountain climber, leadership expert, and wellness coach, shares her proven strategies for navigating this challenging time. Learn how to harness the power of mindfulness, self-care, and resilience to achieve your weight loss goals and build a fulfilling life. This episode is packed with actionable advice and inspiration to help you conquer your own mountains.
Connect with Winnie:
Instagram: genesis.pw
LinkedIn: LinkedIn.com/in/winniekok
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Sage Women, the podcast for midlife ladies
navigating perimenopause, menopause, and healthy aging.
I'm Melanie White, and each weekI talk with experts and women,
sharing real stories, practical insights, and smart tips to
thrive through this stage of life and beyond.
It's Melanie White on the Sage Women Podcast, and I'm here with
Winnie Cock, who is the HR business partner and talent
(00:23):
acquisition lead in an Asia Pacific global organization.
And today, we're going to be talking about women in
leadership, the challenges that they face, Winnie's own
transformational journey throughmidlife and menopause, her
aspirations as a Mountaineer, and her transition into a new
way of life, health, helping other women go through what
(00:44):
she's been through before. Winnie, thank you for being
here. Really appreciate you taking the
time. It's my pleasure.
I'm very happy to be here as well.
Thank you. And so for the next, I suppose,
20 or 30 minutes, we'll be talking about a lot of your
experiences just to really showcase what's possible for
midlife women and perhaps what they need to be thinking about.
(01:05):
But as a starting point, I suppose I'd love to find out
what you see happening in globalcompanies as an HR professional.
What are the challenges that women are facing and what are
the aspirations that they have? I guess that's a few, few
things. I think we're at the personal
front because I'm a single mum. So having a young child to kind
(01:27):
of manage between, how do you want to balance your career
versus your personal life? It's actually quite challenging.
But I guess also having very good family support, it's very
fundamental for this things thatI want to do.
And on top of that, like you mentioned, I've been to hiking,
so I travel a lot for work and also for leisure.
(01:49):
So you can imagine the amount oftime that I have to, I have to
spend between these two. It's it's quite, you need to
plan it really well in order to be able to manage your own self
versus the family obligations and work and.
What sorts of things are you seeing happening in the in the
(02:10):
leadership sector, in organizations?
What are the trends of things that women are facing as
challenges around mid life? Yeah, so as I mentioned about
my, how my, how the personal front works, right.
So a lot of people, especially in their 30's, the young, of
course, when you are young, fresh from school, it's easy to,
you know, go into a career like I want to learn as much as I can
(02:32):
and then I grow within the job. Then you go into a phase where
you either had setting up families or you have other
obligations that you need to look after parents or any other
things that happens. So sometimes the women will
usually take a second backseat in how they how they want to
take their career forward because their first priority is
(02:53):
always the children, their family.
So one of the things that are wedo a lot in our organization,
there's a big company we in terms of diversity inclusions,
how we balance out the OR equal opportunity for male and female
as well, right. So we know that women tends to
have that nurturing nature of wanting to look after family and
(03:17):
then how husband is growing in the career.
How do we balance out between the two of us and things like
that. So I think, I think one thing we
run in within the organization is really helping women to find
time to balance this out in order to not compromise what's
in it for themselves, not just for the family as part of a
(03:38):
sacrifice, you call it. But I guess it's also about
looking after yourself well before you can look after
others. I think that is a lot of we, we
actually took a lot of time spending time on female
leadership to help them grow andand in the role where giving
them supports within the organization so that they can
(03:59):
balance both work and personal life as well.
It sounds like you're taking a health first kind of approach,
helping women to really not justget career opportunities at
work, but also to make enough time to look after their basic
health needs and to go through some of the challenges that
they're facing with support. Yes, that's right.
(04:20):
So as you know that if we don't look after our self wealth and
especially physical and mental, both mental and physical, right.
If you think about physical you if especially meet life women,
we tends to because of hormonal change, the menopause and things
like that. That comes to play when we get
higher in the oppositions, the lot more stress as you can
imagine and also balancing up tothe obligations within the work
(04:44):
that is very demanding. At the same time.
You probably had a teenage children at home and how do you
still able to spend time with them?
At the same time having for myself, for example, because I'm
in Asia Pacific regional role. So to work through all the time
zone, I don't have basically a nine to five job.
So I'm from Australia time all the way down to US time.
(05:08):
And how do I still find time in between that?
You plan ahead of time where youcan find time for your fitness
exercise versus how to eat at the right timing so that you
don't miss out on food, the nutritions that you need and the
quality of sleep as well. You might not sleep 8 hours, for
example, but at least you know that you know when to switch off
(05:29):
in order to be able to have timefor yourself recharge so that
you can come back fresh the nextday.
So, so these are the things thatyou need to, I mean, my personal
experience, I'm able to plan ahead of time, looking at my
calendars every day, to be honest, in order to know exactly
which are the time and, and daysthat I have time for myself.
(05:52):
Wow, you sound very organized, and I hear that you're focusing
on your well-being on a day-to-day basis too.
Yeah. I mean, I would say I wasn't
like that before. I was always being pulled in
different direction for whoever demands my attention.
So the self-care is pretty much absent, if I can say that.
(06:13):
But I get to start to realize that over the last few years,
especially when, you know, when I'm getting older, I get tired
easily. When you are entering the pre
and perimenopause phase, right, we all that it takes a lot on
our body to be able to show up the same way.
I'm basically a very high energyenergy person, so to speak,
(06:36):
because I climb mountains, I do a lot of gym exercise.
So naturally I am my, but my body doesn't want to cooperate
with me. I want to say that way.
So I need to be able to find a different approach in order to
still go into a phase where I still enjoy what I do, but I
(06:57):
have to tweak it somehow becauseI have to admit that I'm getting
older. But yet it's time.
You don't want to compromise what you enjoy doing.
So you constantly have to unlearn and relearn in order to
adapt. I think that is something that
I, I, I've learned along the wayand I think the last few years
I've attended this program that talks about humanity leadership.
(07:19):
So in the last four months programme with the mentor that
works alongside with me, I was able to then realize, even
though it's a no brainer, but when someone asked me, when you
have a problem, who do you look to look for?
And it's paused for a while, I couldn't answer because I'm the
one who actually help other people solve problems.
(07:41):
But when I have a problem myself, I don't know who and to
because I try to solve my own problem and I think I'm not
unique. And I realised that a lot of
women especially tends to do that so or rather even men
sometimes, right? Because of the pride that help
was being brought up that we solved our own problem.
(08:02):
We tends to figure that out ourself and we sometimes get
entangled with our own issues and in our little bubble.
So how do we then seek help? Because a lot of time when I was
coaching employees within the organization, they often thinks
that if I reach out, ask to say that I have a problem, it's a
(08:24):
sign of weakness. All know that being vulnerable
and to be able to address this is a courage.
So that is a strength, not a weakness.
So you gain much more by seekinghelp if you are stuck in certain
situation that I think I've learned over the program and I
that's why I decided that I needto spend more time with myself.
(08:48):
And you shouldn't feel guilty because if you feel guilty, then
you'll go back to the old versions of yourself.
And if you know how to learn howto say no to a certain extent,
you are not setting boundaries to protect yourself.
So I think that's something I'velearned over the last 4-5 years.
And I, I see a big difference inmyself.
(09:10):
And to be honest, a lot of people around me say that too,
that I can see, you know, peoplewho are known me for 10-15
years, they will say they can see the change in me of how I
show up somebody a lot more confident, more up there where
people would trust me a lot morebecause I can, I can, I can
(09:31):
share a lot more in terms of howI balance self versus others.
So I'm not guilty. If give you an example, like
when I'm coaching people now andI talk about personal values,
when I ask people to pick the top three values of themselves,
family is always one of them. And I told this first.
I told many of my my clients, I said I don't pick family as a
(09:55):
top three, not because I don't see them as important.
It's because if I don't look within myself that I, I truly
show up. Well, my family will become
compromised. So they're equally important.
But it's just that the top threepersonal value has to be linked
to my own self worth and self love.
(10:16):
Otherwise this thing will never happen.
It's so interesting. You must come across, and I, I
know I do. You must come across a lot of
women who are feeling guilty about putting themselves first,
who are finding it hard to say no, to set boundaries around
work, perhaps to say no to theirfamilies, sometimes to meet
their own needs. Yes, definitely.
(10:38):
If I use a work context, I when I was first promoted into the
Asia Pacific role from a countryRd. to APEC role, you can
imagine the transition that's really large dealing with
leaders from who has been with the company for a long, long
time and they are very senior intheir position And I was then
(10:59):
promoted as a senior manager only.
So you, you don't have the job title as the same as them as a
vice president and so on and so forth.
But one thing that I knew for and my role was newly created.
So you can imagine they never had a HR business partner
telling them what to do and not to do.
So I have to show up the way I, I was tasked to ensure that I'm
(11:23):
on par with them even though I don't have the job title.
So, so they will come to me at the beginning and initial phase.
Nothing wrong with them behavinglike this because they had been
like this for four years, right?So while your company is also
restructuring, changing the structure, the, the whole
hierarchy, and when it come to me, they will say, we need, I
want to do this and this and that.
(11:44):
And I said, no, you can't do that because, you know, global
wants it that way. And they will say, no, I want it
that way because that's how theyare show up all the time.
But but then you, if you, if you, if you really, if you're
being, you have your responsibility to task to make
sure that they really cooperate.You will need to find a way to
(12:05):
understand them. You know, why?
Why do they say no to me? And then from there I approach
it differently and then say, no,we can't do this.
However, we can work around certain things to still take
what you want. And then I negotiate with
global. So I become the bridge between
them. So that's also to build trust
(12:26):
over time and let there goes with my personal life.
So if I in any relationship thatI'm in, be it platonic or even
intimate relationship, that is something that I've learned over
the years that if I want to say no, I shouldn't be guilty, but I
will need to be able to regulatemy own emotion first before I
show up and say to kind of negotiate what it's in between
(12:49):
that we can meet so that both party are happy.
You know, I'm hearing that you've stepped into a big
challenging situation, an opportunity for growth, and you
really stood up for that. And you, you invested in
learning your own way of saying no and setting boundaries, but
making it accommodating at the same time.
(13:11):
So that, and I love that you talk about regulating your
emotions because that's often the thing that gets in the way,
right? We think, oh, I'm going to let
someone down or I'm not going todo the right thing, or they're
going to get angry with me. And so we deflect or we avoid or
we give in or whatever it is. And then that leaves us in a
deficit position. Yes, that's right.
(13:32):
And also, but and also when I'm coaching people, usually I will
observe the personality type because different personality
show up differently and they take, they receive information
differently as well. So I usually will observe the
body language, what they say. Yeah, sometimes what they say
(13:55):
doesn't doesn't match with actually how they feel.
So we probe further. So one of the things that I do a
lot is actually what they say onsurface.
I would never react. I will go deeper and ask them
more questions and then you knowwhat they actually truly mean
because especially senior leaders, right, they're not easy
to be able to tell you because of pride as well.
(14:17):
They will not show up and tell you this is, this is this is I'm
scared because I'm fear of something or whatsoever.
You are supposed to protect thembecause that's my job too as AHR
business partner. So, so in any relationship, I
would say, whether work or personal life, and if you
empathize, I think that empathy is one key thing that I've
(14:38):
learned. If you can empathize the
person's situation, you will, you will be more willing to show
up to help and support them through the transition.
This part of change management, everybody has to go through.
So, so I think that's basically how I've, I've showed up.
I think my job has helped me a lot in shaping my the way I the
(14:58):
way I deal with people because I'm personally from young, I'm
very impatient. I might be quickly.
And so sometimes as when I was younger, I used to step on
someone, somebody's toe and I was being told a few times.
So but over the years, right, you understand if you empathize
and when you empathize and you listen, you're likely to get the
respond that you would would be able to help them much more.
(15:22):
Yeah. Yeah, that's really well said.
And you said you're a mountain climber and I'm speculating that
that also has a lot to do with your capacity to step up into
leadership and to become more confident and and certain about
yourself and to be able to go through your own change
management management process. Yeah.
(15:44):
I think about climbing mountains.
What? What's going on there, Winnie?
It's a it's a very interesting journey.
I would say when I started climbing in year 2000, that was
my first mountain. But I was you prepared and
somebody just talked me through like, hey, you know, we're gonna
climb a mountain, let's go. And I was very young that time.
(16:06):
I was in my 20s. So I thought, hey, you know, I'm
should be fit enough to do that.So I didn't exercise much and I
just went that three days, two night almost killed me.
But I still managed to reach thetop because my, my, my kind of
like, oh, I didn't want to lose face.
I need to make sure I get to thetop.
So there's a bit of that ego so pushing me up.
(16:29):
But then I suffered when I was descending and of course the
next few weeks. But since then, why I fell in
love. As you probably see from this
backdrop, I love the kind of view scenery that you gain when
you are at top of the mountain where this is something that you
can see on TV and picture. But you when you're standing on
top of the mountain, you're seeing that down or in in eye
(16:49):
level. There's no words to describe.
I can't even describe to you howI feel.
So I think that was where I start.
Fell in love with climbing, but I've never still learned to
enjoy the journey. I just know that I want to go
there, but I never prepare myself properly.
So I often suffer the whole journey and I will come back
(17:12):
regretting through the whole journey I'll be regretting, I'll
come back. Oh, I feel good and I'll start
over again. But then I realized as I and in
in during the COVID time, I put on so much weight.
As I mentioned, as I grow older,the body starts to change.
I don't know what's happening. I still do the same thing as I
was before, but I keep putting on weight.
(17:33):
Then I told myself then it's affecting my exercise, affecting
my climbing, affecting my energylevel and my focus spend.
That's why I decided that I needto do something differently.
And in COVID, and you know, we all knew to COVID, we don't know
what's what's going to happen tous.
And I was newly promoted to the role to the APEC role at the
same time. I decided to go on my weight
loss journey. Everything comes at the same
(17:56):
time. Wow.
So I kind of put it like a mission, like how I put it to my
calendar, making sure I plan everything.
And because I enjoy cooking. So I start to Google and
research of how should I eat healthily.
So and I watch a lot of podcast reports.
I sound sounded like a bit like a doctor now.
So I start reading a lot of clinical papers, watch podcast
(18:20):
from weight loss doctors, nutritionists, dietitian from
different countries. So I compare notes.
Even though it's self-taught, I have to make sure that whatever
people telling me are the real stuff, the science stuff.
So I sustainable weight loss. So then it links to my then my
exercise and when I now start totrain more, I felt that I enjoy
(18:43):
my modern climbing a lot better.I start to appreciate my energy
level, my the surrounding aroundme.
And it's no longer just about some meeting.
It's about the journey now and then it builds confident with my
body and my mind. And one thing that show up for
my leadership role from, from the climbing is emotional
(19:05):
resilience. There are days that you feel
like giving up. I can quote you an example.
When I, when I did Everspace Cam, I have to hike for 12 days.
So imagine with the backpack of,you know, 5 to 10 kilogram, you
have to walk an average of 5-6 hours every day for 12 days.
(19:26):
And the summit days will be verylong.
It could be 9 hours, for example.
And it's very cold, you don't sleep properly at high altitude,
the oxygen level is very low. So you have to baffle battle
with a lot of things around you.But if you are not giving up,
right, And that's where your main long term goal is, to reach
(19:47):
the summit, come down safely. And, and when you have that
mission in mind, you tend to start to think differently.
So endurance starts to build andyou are able to push it on.
There are people who I talked towho have never climbed mountain.
They'll go like, how would you want to do things like this?
It's such a torture. But when you start to appreciate
(20:07):
it, you build resilience over time.
And there's a lot of teamwork inmountaineering because all are
like minded people, all going through the same thing.
We, even though we are strangersfrom different country, we
support each other to ensure that we encourage each other up
the mountain. So these are the things that.
We don't get to see on a day-to-day.
(20:28):
So when you are able to do that and you come down safely and
successfully, you appreciate life a little differently.
Then when I come back to my day job and my life, you tends to be
a little bit more at peace, karma and you deal with chaos a
little bit different, if that makes sense.
(20:48):
So that's where I I look at lookat mountaineering in the past.
It's just about submitting in the view.
Now I start to appreciate the journey and the people that I
meet, the things that I learned along the way.
So now I'm my mission is to my my long term vision is to is to
challenge the elevation. With the age I'm in, I have to
(21:08):
do a lot more training in order for my body to be ready to climb
higher mountain. That's incredible, Winnie.
That's so incredible, so inspiring.
And you said something there that I thought was interesting.
You talked about it, you changedthe way you're thinking it.
(21:30):
You mentioned going from that it's all about the summit to
enjoying the journey. What do you think changed in
your thinking and what was perhaps a pivotal moment or a
pivotal time where your thinkingchanged?
Yeah. So I think a lot of time is
because when you're in the mountain, you don't have your
mobile phone, yeah, you don't have a lot of distraction have
(21:54):
only you and the mountain. So and when you finish climbing
for the day, because we start the day very early like 6630 and
then we finish by about if we are, if we walk, we, we hike
fast enough, we will be down by the other next point at about
2:00 PM, three PM the Max. And you have the whole night to
yourself. So and you of course mingle
(22:16):
whoever is there in the in the tent area whatsoever.
You only focus on things that you truly enjoy and believed in.
And you, you start to listen more because you don't have
distraction. So when that comes in, it gives
you a peace, a sense of peace when you are focusing on self.
(22:39):
Yeah, yeah, I see that. I see them when you are at home,
right? If you don't consciously make
time the same as how you would do in the mountain, you will be
in Pool in different direction. So having to be able to
appreciate what you have and understand why is it important
for self. And it actually clear up your
(23:02):
mind when that happens, when youcome back home, back to your
usual self with your way of lifestyle, you tends to want
you, you, you, you yearn to havethat little time to space,
pockets of space to you for yourself.
So when that happened, it becomes is a conscious effort at
the beginning. Then slowly it becomes a new
(23:25):
habit that I must have that selftime.
So I'm saying about my, my, my days of work, right?
In the past, when I was in a corporate job, I work, I can
work early, as early as 8:00 AM in the morning because of
Australia, as late as 8 to 10:00PM at night because of US.
So the day looks very, very long.
(23:46):
But in between you have pockets of time.
So how do you plan it like you plan your work that you have
rocket in your calendar. When do you exercise, when do
you eat your meals? So you still have that balance
time for yourself. So when that I do that more, it
becomes a norm and I find that if I can do the reflection, the
(24:06):
self reflection, when you're in a mountain, when you look at
nothing else, right, you do a lot of self reflection.
So that is the reason why I start to appreciate that's a
long time. I'm hearing an element of
spirituality or mindfulness there, as well as that really
tactical organization and that commitment to yourself of I must
(24:28):
make time for these pockets of time so that I can be at peace.
And there's this and then the physical act of mountaineering
is the resilience building part where you're pushing and
challenging yourself in different ways.
And with teams, there's a lot actually wrapped up in the in
that journey. And one important factor, when
(24:50):
you're climbing mountain, you only focus on your breathing
because you want. Imagine if you walk for six
hours, you need to be able to not just have the physical body.
So a lot of people would think that if I'm fit enough, I can
climb a mountain. It doesn't work like this.
So you it's all in your mind. Because if you rush, for
example, you compete, someone walks faster than you and you
(25:12):
want to compete, right? You walk faster.
You forgot about altitude sickness.
It can slows you down. But if you go to just just me, I
don't care. It's not a competition so long.
I reached the summit by the designated time.
It's just me. You're competing with yourself,
nothing else. So, so you actually focus on
breathing a lot as part of my fullness.
(25:33):
So because you want your energy level to be consistent in order
to be able to go to the next destination that you are
arriving. So if you were to use the same
example on things that you do ona daily basis, if you want to
reach the next destination, if you focus on self where you want
(25:53):
to hit, how you want to hit towards 2 and what tools and
resources you need to hit there.And you will likely to reach
there because your mind is very clear.
But the moment you have people who distracts you, competing
with you, saying things that's bad that oh, you're going very
slow, you need to speed up or whatsoever it would, it would
(26:14):
kind of beat you up a little bitand then it will slows you down.
You probably would give up. Yeah, I've seen people who gave
up very easily in the mountain because you you get trained so
quickly, you can't breathe properly.
And so people tend to give up. But if you know, with the right
group of people who supported you at the same time, you will
(26:37):
see yourself keep pushing on. That's what I talk about
endurance and the resilience that builds over time.
It's such a metaphor for life too, isn't it?
I mean, we in our daily lives, we have to climb mountains and
sometimes that's also things like weight loss or getting
through menopause. That is its own journey to a
(26:57):
summit that we might not be ableto see.
And you've lost weight. Can you tell us a little bit
about that too, Winnie? I know you touched on it
earlier, but we'd love to learn a bit more about what?
What's the transformation that you've been through, I suppose?
It was funny that I've all, I mean, I think it happens to a
lot of women. We tends to take this weight
(27:18):
loss as a topic of lifelong learning.
Yeah. So I when I was younger, I
always lose weight, gain weight again, lose weight, gain weight.
I and I've tried any kinds of weight loss.
You can even the illegal one. If I can say anything that will
make me lose weight, I will try.But then this time round was a
(27:40):
little different. Like I said, Kovic time, there's
no one else and Jim was close. I can't do anything.
It's just me and myself again. So what do I do in order to make
sure that I was at my prime? I've never been so big before.
I was weighing 82 kilogram at myprime and I was wearing a size
(28:00):
16 in my life. I've never done that in my life.
So I kind of scared myself and say, look, I, I can't, I can't
go on like this, right? I need to do something about it.
So that's how I started the journey of learning, you know,
go Googling, reading up a lot ofpapers and, and health related
matters. And I experimented on myself.
And when I start to lose weight,I start to appreciate what the
(28:25):
science tells you about knowing how your body reacts to
different things. So it's not just about someone
tells you, oh, this will help you lose weight or this is a
good food that you should try Because everyone's lifestyle is
different. Everyone's reacting to food and
and exercise is also different. So you need to find the right
(28:45):
way for yourself. So likewise for me, I decided
that this experiment a few things and you start to lose
weight. So in 18 months I've lost 24
kilogram and not just that, I get actually a Chinese
physician. It was funny that I actually
went to a Chinese physician for acupuncture for my shoulder
(29:06):
because I do weight training andthe garden doctors were asking
me, so why did you, how did you get this injury?
So I said, oh, because I go to the gym, I do my tie.
So that's why you overuse my shoulder.
And I told him that I lost 24 kilogram.
He said, he said to me in his own words, he says, if you
didn't tell me that you lost 20 plus kilogram, I will not know.
(29:29):
I can't tell because there's a glow in your face.
And you like, you know, you knowhow people lose so much weight
in a short, short span of time, right?
You tend to have wrinkles and you dry skin and your hair
starts to look very pale. So she said, if you didn't tell
me, I wouldn't, I wouldn't thinkyou you did lost so much weight.
(29:49):
So I guess I've done the right thing.
So I think what happened then I was able to keep the weight off
for the last five years. But of course the recent time
because of my perimenopause lastyear I start to gain some weight
and whatever I used to know doesn't seems to work this time.
So I was a bit of an anxious mode and I was freaking out to
(30:11):
be honest. I don't want to gain weight
again so I really want to lose back to my usual self.
So I decided to see a dietitian and to see a gyne gynecologist
who specialized in, sorry, menopause so that I can then
relearn about my body. And then that's where the week
came off. And surprisingly, I talked to so
(30:34):
many people around me who's about my age, who was going
through perimenopause. No one talks about it,
surprisingly. And I said why those people need
to suffer. We know menopause is part of our
life. We can't get that, but we don't
need to suffer. So once I approach the experts
in this field, in three weeks I lost 3 kilogram so that and then
(30:59):
I was able to keep it off until today.
So I think I think that is and and it affects my sleep and my
exercise. So with that weight loss and
eating readjust the food and my exercise, my energy came back
and I was able to do much more thing.
And especially now in my new business, then you know I can
(31:20):
have the energy to be able to domuch more things.
That's such an incredible story went in through this whole
episode so far. I'm hearing persistence, grit,
resilience and inner strength and also a real zest.
You talked about your skin glowing and I see that in you.
You have have that calm energy that that glow of I'm looking
(31:46):
after myself and you can see that you are because it's
showing up. It's coming from the inside.
Thank you. So I think one thing I also
wanted to mention, whoever's listening, right during the 18
months of weight loss and also my mountain climbing, it doesn't
go smooth sailing. Yes, I have the perseverance, I
(32:07):
have the resilience, but there'sa lot of setbacks as well,
right. So I think that we cannot, we
cannot ignore because otherwise people will always think and
that and that get that a lot of compliments that way people will
think that oh, we need this, youcan do it, how disciplined you
are. I won't be able to do it.
I said that's not true. And to be honest, I have gone
(32:28):
through two surgery in the threeyears, the last three years I
have an ankle surgery that my ligament torn and I take one
full year to recuperate. I have to go for physio for my
rehab and I was still thinking of climbing.
So you can imagine that that itself takes a toll on me in my
(32:51):
exercise and my training. So but I need to find ways of
how do I slowly build my muscle mass and my energy back?
So I work very closely with my physiotherapist on what are the
exercise I can start doing whileI still, you know, recovering
from my ankle surgery and my climb in 2023 when I was
(33:12):
supposed to climb Kilimanjaro, Ihad a sleep dish and I refuse to
cancel my my my client because that's my second attempt.
I told my orthopedic specialist.I think he freaked out when I
refuse to cancel and I'm due to climb in two months.
What can you do before the surgery that I can still climb
(33:36):
the mountain? He probably think I'm mad, but
but I and what he what he has done is OK.
What I can do is I will have to do so he actually inject me my
we call it ITB, which is our, you know, our site of our, our
thigh. Yeah.
Iliotibial Band, yes. Yeah. 26 jab.
(33:59):
Wow. Low low low dose of steroids in
order to make sure my legs hold together to protect my lower
back so that I can climb the entire mountain which is 8 days
so and and during the summit daywhich is at night at about 11:30
PMI start my ascent and I'm supposed to due to arrive there
(34:22):
before sunrise. I'm glad I still did.
But during halfway through the journey is the seven hours up
the the inclination and halfway through my lower back my leg
gave way. They decided to stop working but
I had my painkiller with me. So I told my guy.
(34:44):
So he was pulling me when I was going up and we take the
painkiller. Well it lets the medication
kicked in. I was able to finish the entire
climb and I came back successfully because I can't
climb the second time. The first time because I
couldn't make up to it because Igot high altitude sickness.
And he said I have to abort my summit.
I can't do this again the secondtime because it's too expensive
(35:06):
to climb. So the whole trip cost me about
14 thirteen, $14,000 in for the two trips.
So I can't do this again. So I managed to finish it.
I was very emotional when I arrived at the summit, to be
honest, and I came back straightafter the climb in early
January. I had my slip this surgery and
yet the same time it doesn't compromise my weight loss,
(35:28):
right? I had to maintain it in order to
make sure that I recover from itand so and so forth.
So so that is the that is the challenges I still face in
between those time and on top ofthat, my work that I have to
deal with and keeping that going.
Yeah, keeping your family. Together, keeping your work
going, keeping your training going managing an injury it's a
(35:49):
lot to handle and Winnie as we start to wrap up, I suppose I'm
really interested in what you'regoing to do with all of this
experience that you've got from HR corporate professional
mountain climbing your own personal weight loss journey
and. And a significant transformation
and some really important skillsthat you'd learn, you've learned
(36:10):
along the way of loving the journey.
Where is it all going for you? Yeah, So I like.
I finished my I I've decided to start my own business as a well
health and Wellness coach. So I really do see so much
benefit me going through the journey with a lot of help from
people. As you can hear from my story,
right, I didn't do this all by myself, even though yes, I'm
(36:32):
determined to do it, but withoutthe support from the external
people, from family, from from, you know, people just taking on
my crazy ideas and supported me through to be honest, I won't
get to where I am today. So now going through a new
change myself, right from somebody who is very comfortable
in my corporate job, get a good paying salary and now going to I
(36:56):
don't know where my next paycheck would be, but I really,
and, but I still quite determined that this is the half
I want to go because I benefit so much from all this lifelong
learning. And I really think that if I can
touch somebody's heart and really help them along in making
small changes in their life, I think that to me, it's a much
(37:18):
more from a former, I call it a wealth abundance.
It's not so much of finances anymore.
It's really seeing someone change for the better in their
own life. So much fulfilment for me.
I think that's at my face of my life right now.
I think that's what I I look forand that's the reason why I
decided to start this business. Isn't it an interesting time of?
(37:41):
Life midlife, when you start to throw everything up in the air
and say who am I now and what's really meaningful and purposeful
and I can hear your journey and your experience is something
that you can translate into other people's experiences.
You can help them to to go on their own journeys and I love
the the way you talk about smallchanges because we know that
(38:04):
those little things can have a huge impact yes so if I take.
Mountaineering as an example nowfor me, my vision statement for
myself is to become a a a mountaineering Mountaineer that
I can climb a 8000 mountain that's 8000 meters mountain.
So I never would dream that I would do that.
(38:26):
And yes, it will still be a dream at the moment, but I'm
slowly training myself to increase the elevation so and by
September I'm climbing 6400. If I'm successful then I will be
climbing a 7000 next year. So it's just about progressing.
And then tweak your training accordingly because based on the
training I am going through right now, my performance coach
(38:49):
has given me a lot of positive feedback that my body is is is
responding very well with the training.
So I should be hopefully fingerscrossed that I will be able to
climb my 6004. Then from there I will build the
confident to be able to challenge the 7000.
So that is progression, but it will not come overnight.
(39:09):
It will take three years or fouryears to come, but I'm not in a
hurry. But I have a hurry, of course,
from an age perspective, but I'mnot in a hurry in the terms that
you have to do it next year. So if you are realistic enough,
you will be able to know what steps you take slowly, step by
step to get to where you want tobe.
(39:30):
And isn't the lesson about? Being realistic, definitely it's
not about getting. To the summit, it's about.
Loving the journey. Yes, that's right.
I think that's. Also come to realization that
when I when I go through my mountaineering journey, I
realized that that's the way to go.
Because if you don't enjoy your journey, anything that you do,
(39:50):
you get frustrated because you seems to think you're too far
away, away from what you want toachieve.
So even at my as my career as well.
I never thought that I will be in a regional role.
For example, when the opportunity came out, I I was
hesitant as well. Like why did you choose me?
I never had a regional experience.
(40:12):
And my bosses has been telling me that it's because over the
over the years they observe how am I willing to take on new
things and willing to learn as it goes without expecting
anything of it, right? And because they see that mean
me, that's why they know if theygive me another new things, they
(40:33):
know that I will push myself through.
And I wasn't ahr person before my entire life.
So I was halfway through my roleand I was made redundant in one
of the organization and somebodyjust spotted me and said why
don't you join me in HR? I said, but why do you want me?
Because I don't have HR experience.
And he says, look, you have so much transferable skill that
(40:56):
they have observed. That is something that I can't
teach you from a behaviour pointof view, but I can teach you HR
because it's a technical knowledge.
So I can put you to school and then you do it.
So I actually did my HR management degree course.
I only got my degree in HR management at the age of 41.
(41:18):
Amazing. And I just got.
Promoted as an. HR manager at that time, so I
was doing both and travelling between Singapore and Indonesia
the full year. Every two weeks I'm in different
country and I'm studying in my new job at the same time.
So if I put my mind in it, I believe in it.
I will keep going no matter how hard it is.
(41:40):
And of course with the support my family, I mean, they're,
they're used to my craziness. And you're role modelling for
them, I guess that's why. They, they know that I can do
it, so they want to, They want to help me in any ways to give
me more peace at home so that I can keep pushing what I believe
in, just like the business I'm in now.
(42:01):
My parents, of course, they freaked out like I, I stopped
getting an income rate, but theyare very supportive, my son as
well. So I think all my close friend
around me was really trying to help me to, you know, network
and get my exposure so that I get more business leads and so
on. So all these are the helps that
(42:22):
I get when they believed in me, and that starts with believing
in yourself. I just love this conversation.
Winnie, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
I'm going to share your details in our show notes so that if
anyone wants to get in touch with you to talk about coaching
or to understand more about any,any of the work that you've
done, which is absolutely amazing.
(42:42):
Oh, I'm going to share those details if that's OK.
Thank you, Melanie. Thanks for letting me share.
My story in this podcast, so inspiring, I love it.
And I'm sure everyone else will too.
Thanks very much. We thank you very much.
Welcome to Sage Women, the podcast for midlife ladies
navigating perimenopause, menopause, and healthy aging.
I'm Melanie White, and each weekI talk with experts and women,
sharing real stories, practical insights, and smart tips to
thrive through this stage of life and beyond.
It's Melanie White on the Sage Women Podcast, and I'm here with
Winnie Cock, who is the HR business partner and talent
(00:23):
acquisition lead in an Asia Pacific global organization.
And today, we're going to be talking about women in
leadership, the challenges that they face, Winnie's own
transformational journey throughmidlife and menopause, her
aspirations as a Mountaineer, and her transition into a new
way of life, health, helping other women go through what
(00:44):
she's been through before. Winnie, thank you for being
here. Really appreciate you taking the
time. It's my pleasure.
I'm very happy to be here as well.
Thank you. And so for the next, I suppose,
20 or 30 minutes, we'll be talking about a lot of your
experiences just to really showcase what's possible for
midlife women and perhaps what they need to be thinking about.
(01:05):
But as a starting point, I suppose I'd love to find out
what you see happening in globalcompanies as an HR professional.
What are the challenges that women are facing and what are
the aspirations that they have? I guess that's a few, few
things. I think we're at the personal
front because I'm a single mum. So having a young child to kind
(01:27):
of manage between, how do you want to balance your career
versus your personal life? It's actually quite challenging.
But I guess also having very good family support, it's very
fundamental for this things thatI want to do.
And on top of that, like you mentioned, I've been to hiking,
so I travel a lot for work and also for leisure.
(01:49):
So you can imagine the amount oftime that I have to, I have to
spend between these two. It's it's quite, you need to
plan it really well in order to be able to manage your own self
versus the family obligations and work and.
What sorts of things are you seeing happening in the in the
(02:10):
leadership sector, in organizations?
What are the trends of things that women are facing as
challenges around mid life? Yeah, so as I mentioned about
my, how my, how the personal front works, right.
So a lot of people, especially in their 30's, the young, of
course, when you are young, fresh from school, it's easy to,
you know, go into a career like I want to learn as much as I can
(02:32):
and then I grow within the job. Then you go into a phase where
you either had setting up families or you have other
obligations that you need to look after parents or any other
things that happens. So sometimes the women will
usually take a second backseat in how they how they want to
take their career forward because their first priority is
(02:53):
always the children, their family.
So one of the things that are wedo a lot in our organization,
there's a big company we in terms of diversity inclusions,
how we balance out the OR equal opportunity for male and female
as well, right. So we know that women tends to
have that nurturing nature of wanting to look after family and
(03:17):
then how husband is growing in the career.
How do we balance out between the two of us and things like
that. So I think, I think one thing we
run in within the organization is really helping women to find
time to balance this out in order to not compromise what's
in it for themselves, not just for the family as part of a
(03:38):
sacrifice, you call it. But I guess it's also about
looking after yourself well before you can look after
others. I think that is a lot of we, we
actually took a lot of time spending time on female
leadership to help them grow andand in the role where giving
them supports within the organization so that they can
(03:59):
balance both work and personal life as well.
It sounds like you're taking a health first kind of approach,
helping women to really not justget career opportunities at
work, but also to make enough time to look after their basic
health needs and to go through some of the challenges that
they're facing with support. Yes, that's right.
(04:20):
So as you know that if we don't look after our self wealth and
especially physical and mental, both mental and physical, right.
If you think about physical you if especially meet life women,
we tends to because of hormonal change, the menopause and things
like that. That comes to play when we get
higher in the oppositions, the lot more stress as you can
imagine and also balancing up tothe obligations within the work
(04:44):
that is very demanding. At the same time.
You probably had a teenage children at home and how do you
still able to spend time with them?
At the same time having for myself, for example, because I'm
in Asia Pacific regional role. So to work through all the time
zone, I don't have basically a nine to five job.
So I'm from Australia time all the way down to US time.
(05:08):
And how do I still find time in between that?
You plan ahead of time where youcan find time for your fitness
exercise versus how to eat at the right timing so that you
don't miss out on food, the nutritions that you need and the
quality of sleep as well. You might not sleep 8 hours, for
example, but at least you know that you know when to switch off
(05:29):
in order to be able to have timefor yourself recharge so that
you can come back fresh the nextday.
So, so these are the things thatyou need to, I mean, my personal
experience, I'm able to plan ahead of time, looking at my
calendars every day, to be honest, in order to know exactly
which are the time and, and daysthat I have time for myself.
(05:52):
Wow, you sound very organized, and I hear that you're focusing
on your well-being on a day-to-day basis too.
Yeah. I mean, I would say I wasn't
like that before. I was always being pulled in
different direction for whoever demands my attention.
So the self-care is pretty much absent, if I can say that.
(06:13):
But I get to start to realize that over the last few years,
especially when, you know, when I'm getting older, I get tired
easily. When you are entering the pre
and perimenopause phase, right, we all that it takes a lot on
our body to be able to show up the same way.
I'm basically a very high energyenergy person, so to speak,
(06:36):
because I climb mountains, I do a lot of gym exercise.
So naturally I am my, but my body doesn't want to cooperate
with me. I want to say that way.
So I need to be able to find a different approach in order to
still go into a phase where I still enjoy what I do, but I
(06:57):
have to tweak it somehow becauseI have to admit that I'm getting
older. But yet it's time.
You don't want to compromise what you enjoy doing.
So you constantly have to unlearn and relearn in order to
adapt. I think that is something that
I, I, I've learned along the wayand I think the last few years
I've attended this program that talks about humanity leadership.
(07:19):
So in the last four months programme with the mentor that
works alongside with me, I was able to then realize, even
though it's a no brainer, but when someone asked me, when you
have a problem, who do you look to look for?
And it's paused for a while, I couldn't answer because I'm the
one who actually help other people solve problems.
(07:41):
But when I have a problem myself, I don't know who and to
because I try to solve my own problem and I think I'm not
unique. And I realised that a lot of
women especially tends to do that so or rather even men
sometimes, right? Because of the pride that help
was being brought up that we solved our own problem.
(08:02):
We tends to figure that out ourself and we sometimes get
entangled with our own issues and in our little bubble.
So how do we then seek help? Because a lot of time when I was
coaching employees within the organization, they often thinks
that if I reach out, ask to say that I have a problem, it's a
(08:24):
sign of weakness. All know that being vulnerable
and to be able to address this is a courage.
So that is a strength, not a weakness.
So you gain much more by seekinghelp if you are stuck in certain
situation that I think I've learned over the program and I
that's why I decided that I needto spend more time with myself.
(08:48):
And you shouldn't feel guilty because if you feel guilty, then
you'll go back to the old versions of yourself.
And if you know how to learn howto say no to a certain extent,
you are not setting boundaries to protect yourself.
So I think that's something I'velearned over the last 4-5 years.
And I, I see a big difference inmyself.
(09:10):
And to be honest, a lot of people around me say that too,
that I can see, you know, peoplewho are known me for 10-15
years, they will say they can see the change in me of how I
show up somebody a lot more confident, more up there where
people would trust me a lot morebecause I can, I can, I can
(09:31):
share a lot more in terms of howI balance self versus others.
So I'm not guilty. If give you an example, like
when I'm coaching people now andI talk about personal values,
when I ask people to pick the top three values of themselves,
family is always one of them. And I told this first.
I told many of my my clients, I said I don't pick family as a
(09:55):
top three, not because I don't see them as important.
It's because if I don't look within myself that I, I truly
show up. Well, my family will become
compromised. So they're equally important.
But it's just that the top threepersonal value has to be linked
to my own self worth and self love.
(10:16):
Otherwise this thing will never happen.
It's so interesting. You must come across, and I, I
know I do. You must come across a lot of
women who are feeling guilty about putting themselves first,
who are finding it hard to say no, to set boundaries around
work, perhaps to say no to theirfamilies, sometimes to meet
their own needs. Yes, definitely.
(10:38):
If I use a work context, I when I was first promoted into the
Asia Pacific role from a countryRd. to APEC role, you can
imagine the transition that's really large dealing with
leaders from who has been with the company for a long, long
time and they are very senior intheir position And I was then
(10:59):
promoted as a senior manager only.
So you, you don't have the job title as the same as them as a
vice president and so on and so forth.
But one thing that I knew for and my role was newly created.
So you can imagine they never had a HR business partner
telling them what to do and not to do.
So I have to show up the way I, I was tasked to ensure that I'm
(11:23):
on par with them even though I don't have the job title.
So, so they will come to me at the beginning and initial phase.
Nothing wrong with them behavinglike this because they had been
like this for four years, right?So while your company is also
restructuring, changing the structure, the, the whole
hierarchy, and when it come to me, they will say, we need, I
want to do this and this and that.
(11:44):
And I said, no, you can't do that because, you know, global
wants it that way. And they will say, no, I want it
that way because that's how theyare show up all the time.
But but then you, if you, if you, if you really, if you're
being, you have your responsibility to task to make
sure that they really cooperate.You will need to find a way to
(12:05):
understand them. You know, why?
Why do they say no to me? And then from there I approach
it differently and then say, no,we can't do this.
However, we can work around certain things to still take
what you want. And then I negotiate with
global. So I become the bridge between
them. So that's also to build trust
(12:26):
over time and let there goes with my personal life.
So if I in any relationship thatI'm in, be it platonic or even
intimate relationship, that is something that I've learned over
the years that if I want to say no, I shouldn't be guilty, but I
will need to be able to regulatemy own emotion first before I
show up and say to kind of negotiate what it's in between
(12:49):
that we can meet so that both party are happy.
You know, I'm hearing that you've stepped into a big
challenging situation, an opportunity for growth, and you
really stood up for that. And you, you invested in
learning your own way of saying no and setting boundaries, but
making it accommodating at the same time.
(13:11):
So that, and I love that you talk about regulating your
emotions because that's often the thing that gets in the way,
right? We think, oh, I'm going to let
someone down or I'm not going todo the right thing, or they're
going to get angry with me. And so we deflect or we avoid or
we give in or whatever it is. And then that leaves us in a
deficit position. Yes, that's right.
(13:32):
And also, but and also when I'm coaching people, usually I will
observe the personality type because different personality
show up differently and they take, they receive information
differently as well. So I usually will observe the
body language, what they say. Yeah, sometimes what they say
(13:55):
doesn't doesn't match with actually how they feel.
So we probe further. So one of the things that I do a
lot is actually what they say onsurface.
I would never react. I will go deeper and ask them
more questions and then you knowwhat they actually truly mean
because especially senior leaders, right, they're not easy
to be able to tell you because of pride as well.
(14:17):
They will not show up and tell you this is, this is this is I'm
scared because I'm fear of something or whatsoever.
You are supposed to protect thembecause that's my job too as AHR
business partner. So, so in any relationship, I
would say, whether work or personal life, and if you
empathize, I think that empathy is one key thing that I've
(14:38):
learned. If you can empathize the
person's situation, you will, you will be more willing to show
up to help and support them through the transition.
This part of change management, everybody has to go through.
So, so I think that's basically how I've, I've showed up.
I think my job has helped me a lot in shaping my the way I the
(14:58):
way I deal with people because I'm personally from young, I'm
very impatient. I might be quickly.
And so sometimes as when I was younger, I used to step on
someone, somebody's toe and I was being told a few times.
So but over the years, right, you understand if you empathize
and when you empathize and you listen, you're likely to get the
respond that you would would be able to help them much more.
(15:22):
Yeah. Yeah, that's really well said.
And you said you're a mountain climber and I'm speculating that
that also has a lot to do with your capacity to step up into
leadership and to become more confident and and certain about
yourself and to be able to go through your own change
management management process. Yeah.
(15:44):
I think about climbing mountains.
What? What's going on there, Winnie?
It's a it's a very interesting journey.
I would say when I started climbing in year 2000, that was
my first mountain. But I was you prepared and
somebody just talked me through like, hey, you know, we're gonna
climb a mountain, let's go. And I was very young that time.
(16:06):
I was in my 20s. So I thought, hey, you know, I'm
should be fit enough to do that.So I didn't exercise much and I
just went that three days, two night almost killed me.
But I still managed to reach thetop because my, my, my kind of
like, oh, I didn't want to lose face.
I need to make sure I get to thetop.
So there's a bit of that ego so pushing me up.
(16:29):
But then I suffered when I was descending and of course the
next few weeks. But since then, why I fell in
love. As you probably see from this
backdrop, I love the kind of view scenery that you gain when
you are at top of the mountain where this is something that you
can see on TV and picture. But you when you're standing on
top of the mountain, you're seeing that down or in in eye
(16:49):
level. There's no words to describe.
I can't even describe to you howI feel.
So I think that was where I start.
Fell in love with climbing, but I've never still learned to
enjoy the journey. I just know that I want to go
there, but I never prepare myself properly.
So I often suffer the whole journey and I will come back
(17:12):
regretting through the whole journey I'll be regretting, I'll
come back. Oh, I feel good and I'll start
over again. But then I realized as I and in
in during the COVID time, I put on so much weight.
As I mentioned, as I grow older,the body starts to change.
I don't know what's happening. I still do the same thing as I
was before, but I keep putting on weight.
(17:33):
Then I told myself then it's affecting my exercise, affecting
my climbing, affecting my energylevel and my focus spend.
That's why I decided that I needto do something differently.
And in COVID, and you know, we all knew to COVID, we don't know
what's what's going to happen tous.
And I was newly promoted to the role to the APEC role at the
same time. I decided to go on my weight
loss journey. Everything comes at the same
(17:56):
time. Wow.
So I kind of put it like a mission, like how I put it to my
calendar, making sure I plan everything.
And because I enjoy cooking. So I start to Google and
research of how should I eat healthily.
So and I watch a lot of podcast reports.
I sound sounded like a bit like a doctor now.
So I start reading a lot of clinical papers, watch podcast
(18:20):
from weight loss doctors, nutritionists, dietitian from
different countries. So I compare notes.
Even though it's self-taught, I have to make sure that whatever
people telling me are the real stuff, the science stuff.
So I sustainable weight loss. So then it links to my then my
exercise and when I now start totrain more, I felt that I enjoy
(18:43):
my modern climbing a lot better.I start to appreciate my energy
level, my the surrounding aroundme.
And it's no longer just about some meeting.
It's about the journey now and then it builds confident with my
body and my mind. And one thing that show up for
my leadership role from, from the climbing is emotional
(19:05):
resilience. There are days that you feel
like giving up. I can quote you an example.
When I, when I did Everspace Cam, I have to hike for 12 days.
So imagine with the backpack of,you know, 5 to 10 kilogram, you
have to walk an average of 5-6 hours every day for 12 days.
(19:26):
And the summit days will be verylong.
It could be 9 hours, for example.
And it's very cold, you don't sleep properly at high altitude,
the oxygen level is very low. So you have to baffle battle
with a lot of things around you.But if you are not giving up,
right, And that's where your main long term goal is, to reach
(19:47):
the summit, come down safely. And, and when you have that
mission in mind, you tend to start to think differently.
So endurance starts to build andyou are able to push it on.
There are people who I talked towho have never climbed mountain.
They'll go like, how would you want to do things like this?
It's such a torture. But when you start to appreciate
(20:07):
it, you build resilience over time.
And there's a lot of teamwork inmountaineering because all are
like minded people, all going through the same thing.
We, even though we are strangersfrom different country, we
support each other to ensure that we encourage each other up
the mountain. So these are the things that.
We don't get to see on a day-to-day.
(20:28):
So when you are able to do that and you come down safely and
successfully, you appreciate life a little differently.
Then when I come back to my day job and my life, you tends to be
a little bit more at peace, karma and you deal with chaos a
little bit different, if that makes sense.
(20:48):
So that's where I I look at lookat mountaineering in the past.
It's just about submitting in the view.
Now I start to appreciate the journey and the people that I
meet, the things that I learned along the way.
So now I'm my mission is to my my long term vision is to is to
challenge the elevation. With the age I'm in, I have to
(21:08):
do a lot more training in order for my body to be ready to climb
higher mountain. That's incredible, Winnie.
That's so incredible, so inspiring.
And you said something there that I thought was interesting.
You talked about it, you changedthe way you're thinking it.
(21:30):
You mentioned going from that it's all about the summit to
enjoying the journey. What do you think changed in
your thinking and what was perhaps a pivotal moment or a
pivotal time where your thinkingchanged?
Yeah. So I think a lot of time is
because when you're in the mountain, you don't have your
mobile phone, yeah, you don't have a lot of distraction have
(21:54):
only you and the mountain. So and when you finish climbing
for the day, because we start the day very early like 6630 and
then we finish by about if we are, if we walk, we, we hike
fast enough, we will be down by the other next point at about
2:00 PM, three PM the Max. And you have the whole night to
yourself. So and you of course mingle
(22:16):
whoever is there in the in the tent area whatsoever.
You only focus on things that you truly enjoy and believed in.
And you, you start to listen more because you don't have
distraction. So when that comes in, it gives
you a peace, a sense of peace when you are focusing on self.
(22:39):
Yeah, yeah, I see that. I see them when you are at home,
right? If you don't consciously make
time the same as how you would do in the mountain, you will be
in Pool in different direction. So having to be able to
appreciate what you have and understand why is it important
for self. And it actually clear up your
(23:02):
mind when that happens, when youcome back home, back to your
usual self with your way of lifestyle, you tends to want
you, you, you, you yearn to havethat little time to space,
pockets of space to you for yourself.
So when that happened, it becomes is a conscious effort at
the beginning. Then slowly it becomes a new
(23:25):
habit that I must have that selftime.
So I'm saying about my, my, my days of work, right?
In the past, when I was in a corporate job, I work, I can
work early, as early as 8:00 AM in the morning because of
Australia, as late as 8 to 10:00PM at night because of US.
So the day looks very, very long.
(23:46):
But in between you have pockets of time.
So how do you plan it like you plan your work that you have
rocket in your calendar. When do you exercise, when do
you eat your meals? So you still have that balance
time for yourself. So when that I do that more, it
becomes a norm and I find that if I can do the reflection, the
(24:06):
self reflection, when you're in a mountain, when you look at
nothing else, right, you do a lot of self reflection.
So that is the reason why I start to appreciate that's a
long time. I'm hearing an element of
spirituality or mindfulness there, as well as that really
tactical organization and that commitment to yourself of I must
(24:28):
make time for these pockets of time so that I can be at peace.
And there's this and then the physical act of mountaineering
is the resilience building part where you're pushing and
challenging yourself in different ways.
And with teams, there's a lot actually wrapped up in the in
that journey. And one important factor, when
(24:50):
you're climbing mountain, you only focus on your breathing
because you want. Imagine if you walk for six
hours, you need to be able to not just have the physical body.
So a lot of people would think that if I'm fit enough, I can
climb a mountain. It doesn't work like this.
So you it's all in your mind. Because if you rush, for
example, you compete, someone walks faster than you and you
(25:12):
want to compete, right? You walk faster.
You forgot about altitude sickness.
It can slows you down. But if you go to just just me, I
don't care. It's not a competition so long.
I reached the summit by the designated time.
It's just me. You're competing with yourself,
nothing else. So, so you actually focus on
breathing a lot as part of my fullness.
(25:33):
So because you want your energy level to be consistent in order
to be able to go to the next destination that you are
arriving. So if you were to use the same
example on things that you do ona daily basis, if you want to
reach the next destination, if you focus on self where you want
(25:53):
to hit, how you want to hit towards 2 and what tools and
resources you need to hit there.And you will likely to reach
there because your mind is very clear.
But the moment you have people who distracts you, competing
with you, saying things that's bad that oh, you're going very
slow, you need to speed up or whatsoever it would, it would
(26:14):
kind of beat you up a little bitand then it will slows you down.
You probably would give up. Yeah, I've seen people who gave
up very easily in the mountain because you you get trained so
quickly, you can't breathe properly.
And so people tend to give up. But if you know, with the right
group of people who supported you at the same time, you will
(26:37):
see yourself keep pushing on. That's what I talk about
endurance and the resilience that builds over time.
It's such a metaphor for life too, isn't it?
I mean, we in our daily lives, we have to climb mountains and
sometimes that's also things like weight loss or getting
through menopause. That is its own journey to a
(26:57):
summit that we might not be ableto see.
And you've lost weight. Can you tell us a little bit
about that too, Winnie? I know you touched on it
earlier, but we'd love to learn a bit more about what?
What's the transformation that you've been through, I suppose?
It was funny that I've all, I mean, I think it happens to a
lot of women. We tends to take this weight
(27:18):
loss as a topic of lifelong learning.
Yeah. So I when I was younger, I
always lose weight, gain weight again, lose weight, gain weight.
I and I've tried any kinds of weight loss.
You can even the illegal one. If I can say anything that will
make me lose weight, I will try.But then this time round was a
(27:40):
little different. Like I said, Kovic time, there's
no one else and Jim was close. I can't do anything.
It's just me and myself again. So what do I do in order to make
sure that I was at my prime? I've never been so big before.
I was weighing 82 kilogram at myprime and I was wearing a size
(28:00):
16 in my life. I've never done that in my life.
So I kind of scared myself and say, look, I, I can't, I can't
go on like this, right? I need to do something about it.
So that's how I started the journey of learning, you know,
go Googling, reading up a lot ofpapers and, and health related
matters. And I experimented on myself.
And when I start to lose weight,I start to appreciate what the
(28:25):
science tells you about knowing how your body reacts to
different things. So it's not just about someone
tells you, oh, this will help you lose weight or this is a
good food that you should try Because everyone's lifestyle is
different. Everyone's reacting to food and
and exercise is also different. So you need to find the right
(28:45):
way for yourself. So likewise for me, I decided
that this experiment a few things and you start to lose
weight. So in 18 months I've lost 24
kilogram and not just that, I get actually a Chinese
physician. It was funny that I actually
went to a Chinese physician for acupuncture for my shoulder
(29:06):
because I do weight training andthe garden doctors were asking
me, so why did you, how did you get this injury?
So I said, oh, because I go to the gym, I do my tie.
So that's why you overuse my shoulder.
And I told him that I lost 24 kilogram.
He said, he said to me in his own words, he says, if you
didn't tell me that you lost 20 plus kilogram, I will not know.
(29:29):
I can't tell because there's a glow in your face.
And you like, you know, you knowhow people lose so much weight
in a short, short span of time, right?
You tend to have wrinkles and you dry skin and your hair
starts to look very pale. So she said, if you didn't tell
me, I wouldn't, I wouldn't thinkyou you did lost so much weight.
(29:49):
So I guess I've done the right thing.
So I think what happened then I was able to keep the weight off
for the last five years. But of course the recent time
because of my perimenopause lastyear I start to gain some weight
and whatever I used to know doesn't seems to work this time.
So I was a bit of an anxious mode and I was freaking out to
(30:11):
be honest. I don't want to gain weight
again so I really want to lose back to my usual self.
So I decided to see a dietitian and to see a gyne gynecologist
who specialized in, sorry, menopause so that I can then
relearn about my body. And then that's where the week
came off. And surprisingly, I talked to so
(30:34):
many people around me who's about my age, who was going
through perimenopause. No one talks about it,
surprisingly. And I said why those people need
to suffer. We know menopause is part of our
life. We can't get that, but we don't
need to suffer. So once I approach the experts
in this field, in three weeks I lost 3 kilogram so that and then
(30:59):
I was able to keep it off until today.
So I think I think that is and and it affects my sleep and my
exercise. So with that weight loss and
eating readjust the food and my exercise, my energy came back
and I was able to do much more thing.
And especially now in my new business, then you know I can
(31:20):
have the energy to be able to domuch more things.
That's such an incredible story went in through this whole
episode so far. I'm hearing persistence, grit,
resilience and inner strength and also a real zest.
You talked about your skin glowing and I see that in you.
You have have that calm energy that that glow of I'm looking
(31:46):
after myself and you can see that you are because it's
showing up. It's coming from the inside.
Thank you. So I think one thing I also
wanted to mention, whoever's listening, right during the 18
months of weight loss and also my mountain climbing, it doesn't
go smooth sailing. Yes, I have the perseverance, I
(32:07):
have the resilience, but there'sa lot of setbacks as well,
right. So I think that we cannot, we
cannot ignore because otherwise people will always think and
that and that get that a lot of compliments that way people will
think that oh, we need this, youcan do it, how disciplined you
are. I won't be able to do it.
I said that's not true. And to be honest, I have gone
(32:28):
through two surgery in the threeyears, the last three years I
have an ankle surgery that my ligament torn and I take one
full year to recuperate. I have to go for physio for my
rehab and I was still thinking of climbing.
So you can imagine that that itself takes a toll on me in my
(32:51):
exercise and my training. So but I need to find ways of
how do I slowly build my muscle mass and my energy back?
So I work very closely with my physiotherapist on what are the
exercise I can start doing whileI still, you know, recovering
from my ankle surgery and my climb in 2023 when I was
(33:12):
supposed to climb Kilimanjaro, Ihad a sleep dish and I refuse to
cancel my my my client because that's my second attempt.
I told my orthopedic specialist.I think he freaked out when I
refuse to cancel and I'm due to climb in two months.
What can you do before the surgery that I can still climb
(33:36):
the mountain? He probably think I'm mad, but
but I and what he what he has done is OK.
What I can do is I will have to do so he actually inject me my
we call it ITB, which is our, you know, our site of our, our
thigh. Yeah.
Iliotibial Band, yes. Yeah. 26 jab.
(33:59):
Wow. Low low low dose of steroids in
order to make sure my legs hold together to protect my lower
back so that I can climb the entire mountain which is 8 days
so and and during the summit daywhich is at night at about 11:30
PMI start my ascent and I'm supposed to due to arrive there
(34:22):
before sunrise. I'm glad I still did.
But during halfway through the journey is the seven hours up
the the inclination and halfway through my lower back my leg
gave way. They decided to stop working but
I had my painkiller with me. So I told my guy.
(34:44):
So he was pulling me when I was going up and we take the
painkiller. Well it lets the medication
kicked in. I was able to finish the entire
climb and I came back successfully because I can't
climb the second time. The first time because I
couldn't make up to it because Igot high altitude sickness.
And he said I have to abort my summit.
I can't do this again the secondtime because it's too expensive
(35:06):
to climb. So the whole trip cost me about
14 thirteen, $14,000 in for the two trips.
So I can't do this again. So I managed to finish it.
I was very emotional when I arrived at the summit, to be
honest, and I came back straightafter the climb in early
January. I had my slip this surgery and
yet the same time it doesn't compromise my weight loss,
(35:28):
right? I had to maintain it in order to
make sure that I recover from itand so and so forth.
So so that is the that is the challenges I still face in
between those time and on top ofthat, my work that I have to
deal with and keeping that going.
Yeah, keeping your family. Together, keeping your work
going, keeping your training going managing an injury it's a
(35:49):
lot to handle and Winnie as we start to wrap up, I suppose I'm
really interested in what you'regoing to do with all of this
experience that you've got from HR corporate professional
mountain climbing your own personal weight loss journey
and. And a significant transformation
and some really important skillsthat you'd learn, you've learned
(36:10):
along the way of loving the journey.
Where is it all going for you? Yeah, So I like.
I finished my I I've decided to start my own business as a well
health and Wellness coach. So I really do see so much
benefit me going through the journey with a lot of help from
people. As you can hear from my story,
right, I didn't do this all by myself, even though yes, I'm
(36:32):
determined to do it, but withoutthe support from the external
people, from family, from from, you know, people just taking on
my crazy ideas and supported me through to be honest, I won't
get to where I am today. So now going through a new
change myself, right from somebody who is very comfortable
in my corporate job, get a good paying salary and now going to I
(36:56):
don't know where my next paycheck would be, but I really,
and, but I still quite determined that this is the half
I want to go because I benefit so much from all this lifelong
learning. And I really think that if I can
touch somebody's heart and really help them along in making
small changes in their life, I think that to me, it's a much
(37:18):
more from a former, I call it a wealth abundance.
It's not so much of finances anymore.
It's really seeing someone change for the better in their
own life. So much fulfilment for me.
I think that's at my face of my life right now.
I think that's what I I look forand that's the reason why I
decided to start this business. Isn't it an interesting time of?
(37:41):
Life midlife, when you start to throw everything up in the air
and say who am I now and what's really meaningful and purposeful
and I can hear your journey and your experience is something
that you can translate into other people's experiences.
You can help them to to go on their own journeys and I love
the the way you talk about smallchanges because we know that
(38:04):
those little things can have a huge impact yes so if I take.
Mountaineering as an example nowfor me, my vision statement for
myself is to become a a a mountaineering Mountaineer that
I can climb a 8000 mountain that's 8000 meters mountain.
So I never would dream that I would do that.
(38:26):
And yes, it will still be a dream at the moment, but I'm
slowly training myself to increase the elevation so and by
September I'm climbing 6400. If I'm successful then I will be
climbing a 7000 next year. So it's just about progressing.
And then tweak your training accordingly because based on the
training I am going through right now, my performance coach
(38:49):
has given me a lot of positive feedback that my body is is is
responding very well with the training.
So I should be hopefully fingerscrossed that I will be able to
climb my 6004. Then from there I will build the
confident to be able to challenge the 7000.
So that is progression, but it will not come overnight.
(39:09):
It will take three years or fouryears to come, but I'm not in a
hurry. But I have a hurry, of course,
from an age perspective, but I'mnot in a hurry in the terms that
you have to do it next year. So if you are realistic enough,
you will be able to know what steps you take slowly, step by
step to get to where you want tobe.
(39:30):
And isn't the lesson about? Being realistic, definitely it's
not about getting. To the summit, it's about.
Loving the journey. Yes, that's right.
I think that's. Also come to realization that
when I when I go through my mountaineering journey, I
realized that that's the way to go.
Because if you don't enjoy your journey, anything that you do,
(39:50):
you get frustrated because you seems to think you're too far
away, away from what you want toachieve.
So even at my as my career as well.
I never thought that I will be in a regional role.
For example, when the opportunity came out, I I was
hesitant as well. Like why did you choose me?
I never had a regional experience.
(40:12):
And my bosses has been telling me that it's because over the
over the years they observe how am I willing to take on new
things and willing to learn as it goes without expecting
anything of it, right? And because they see that mean
me, that's why they know if theygive me another new things, they
(40:33):
know that I will push myself through.
And I wasn't ahr person before my entire life.
So I was halfway through my roleand I was made redundant in one
of the organization and somebodyjust spotted me and said why
don't you join me in HR? I said, but why do you want me?
Because I don't have HR experience.
And he says, look, you have so much transferable skill that
(40:56):
they have observed. That is something that I can't
teach you from a behaviour pointof view, but I can teach you HR
because it's a technical knowledge.
So I can put you to school and then you do it.
So I actually did my HR management degree course.
I only got my degree in HR management at the age of 41.
(41:18):
Amazing. And I just got.
Promoted as an. HR manager at that time, so I
was doing both and travelling between Singapore and Indonesia
the full year. Every two weeks I'm in different
country and I'm studying in my new job at the same time.
So if I put my mind in it, I believe in it.
I will keep going no matter how hard it is.
(41:40):
And of course with the support my family, I mean, they're,
they're used to my craziness. And you're role modelling for
them, I guess that's why. They, they know that I can do
it, so they want to, They want to help me in any ways to give
me more peace at home so that I can keep pushing what I believe
in, just like the business I'm in now.
(42:01):
My parents, of course, they freaked out like I, I stopped
getting an income rate, but theyare very supportive, my son as
well. So I think all my close friend
around me was really trying to help me to, you know, network
and get my exposure so that I get more business leads and so
on. So all these are the helps that
(42:22):
I get when they believed in me, and that starts with believing
in yourself. I just love this conversation.
Winnie, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
I'm going to share your details in our show notes so that if
anyone wants to get in touch with you to talk about coaching
or to understand more about any,any of the work that you've
done, which is absolutely amazing.
(42:42):
Oh, I'm going to share those details if that's OK.
Thank you, Melanie. Thanks for letting me share.
My story in this podcast, so inspiring, I love it.
And I'm sure everyone else will too.
Thanks very much. We thank you very much.
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