Manager-Employee Relationships: Shaping Career Trajectories

Episode Transcript
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Announcer (00:05):
And now the number one audio program that helps you
to hire, get hired and soarhigher in the Salesforce
ecosystem.
It's the Salesforce Career Showwith Josh Matthews and Vanessa
Grant.
Okay, dope.

Josh Matthews (00:21):
Let's do this, guys.
Welcome to the career show.
Salesforce career show that is.
It's going to stop that musicfor a minute, so welcome to the
show, everybody.
Today we will be exploring thediffering viewpoints, objectives
and the relationships betweenmanagers and their employees,
and to accomplish this, we havea mother-daughter team to
discuss this in detail.
So not only are they currentlyworking together right now, but

(00:44):
they've done so with their ownSalesforce consulting firm as
well, not that long, you know.
Previous to this role, we havewith us today, martha Hardy.
Martha is the director of CRMat Pape Group, out of Oregon.
Martha leads a team of 18Salesforce experts across six
divisions, ensuring optimizedCRM use and best practices.
She's got 15 years ofexperience and five

(01:08):
certifications.
She also co-founded aSalesforce consulting practice
for SMBs and is an advocate forpractical, efficient solutions.
And then also with us is heroffspring, mariah Hardy-Spence.
Welcome Mariah.
Mariah is the SalesforceMarketing Ops Manager at Pape
Group.
She specializes in, of allthings, marketing Cloud.
She's a recognized SalesforceMarketing Champion.

(01:31):
She holds seven certifications.
She recently spoke atDreamforce, just like our
illustrious Vanessa Grant.
Here.
She excels in processoptimization, drawing on her
experience managing ahigh-performing team over at
Anheuser-Busch.
So welcome both of you Go aheadand unmute and say hi.

Mariah Hardy-Spence (01:47):
Hello there .
So excited to be on the show.
Thanks so much for having us.
Nice to meet you, Josh.
Nice to meet you, Vanessa.

Thank you, Mariah .

Martha Hardy (01:56):
Hello everybody, Thanks for having us, Josh and
Vanessa, and I look forward toour conversation today.

We're going to launch right into that
conversation as soon as we get ahello from Vanessa and just
kind of cover a couple of cooltopics real quick.
So, vanessa, how's it going?

Vanessa Grant (02:10):
Hey Josh, I am doing great Kind of
post-Dreamforce the dust hassettled and trying to kind of
navigate my way through soloconsultancy these days.

Yeah, so that's a big announcement for our
audience that you actuallyfinally made the decision on
what you're going to be doingfor your career for at least the
next coming days, months,possibly years.
Tell us about it.

Well, when I announced on LinkedIn that I'd
been laid off it's weird to say,but the response was rather
remarkable and just a lot ofopportunities presented
themselves.
Remarkable and just a lot ofopportunities presented
themselves.
And I realized that you know asmuch as I don't.
It's the self limiting beliefsand I've always said I didn't
feel like I had anentrepreneurial bone in my body,

(02:54):
but the opportunities presentedthemselves and I was like you
know what?
I could always go back and tryand find a full time job.
Let me give this a shot and seewhere it goes.
And I'm doing that now and sofar so good, just keeping busy.

Well, I'm really excited for you.
I think a lot of our listeningaudience is excited for you
because it's going to be, it'sgoing to give you some really
fresh perspectives on what manythousands of people in the
ecosystem do, which is maybe not, maybe it's not a business, but
they're, you know, independentconsultant, let's say, and I
think it's a great experience todo that.
I still kind of moonlight doingthat sort of stuff with

(03:27):
business consulting on the side,just a little bit here and
there, and it's fun.
It's like, you know, I've gotmy company and then I got my own
thing, you know, which is a lotof fun to have and it helps us
to also exercise different partsof our brain when we get a
chance to do that.
Now we had oh, I'm going to justtell everyone real quick I just
posted a picture of me andMartha from dream force.

(03:48):
So if you want to check it out,it's just go to at the Josh
force here on X and you can seeme and Martha kicking it in the
sun, sunny sunshine of SanFrancisco back in September.
So we had Vanessa and I had achance to.
Well, I guess it was just me,but I think I really would have
only known her through.
You Got to run into Gilda fromSalesforce, who's director of

(04:13):
product marketing, and she came,I'm afraid to even pronounce
her last name.
I'm afraid I'm going to botchit, is it Helena?

I think that's about as close as I can get.

Okay, all right.
So you know I said hi to Gildaover at Florida Dreamin' in
Clearwater in between thehurricanes, like smack right in
between them, for a few days,and you know she was a guest on
our show when we ran it withBrandon about four weeks ago.
It was really nice to have herthere and I'd seen her but
hadn't said hi at Dreamforce.
Anyway, we got to talking andshe said she really loves the

(04:46):
show, loves that we'reconsistent with it, loves what
we're bringing to the ecosystemwith this program.
And so you know what she did.
She offered us an opportunityto give away some wonderful
prizes to our listening audience, both to our live audience as
well as to our listeningaudience from the podcast

(05:06):
audience as well as to ourlistening audience from the
podcast.
And so today we are going toannounce a contest.
We're not giving all thedetails of the contest yet, but
I did.
I think Vanessa and I bothagreed it makes sense for us to
tell you what we're going to begiving away and a little bit
more about the dates.
We'll tell you how to actuallyget entered into this contest
for these awesome prizes.
But, vanessa, why don't youtake it from here?
When are we going to be doing adrawing and what specifically

(05:29):
are we going to be giving away?

Well, we are going to have the luxury of
giving away five Salesforcecertifications, which is huge at
this time.
I think very few folks are ableto give away certifications
these days and I feel reallyfortunate that we've been seen
and our work is being rewardedand that we can pass on those

(05:52):
rewards to the folks thathopefully benefit from our show
now, besides the content, maybealso with the certification that
they can celebrate with us.

Absolutely.

As far as the timing goes, I might have to
look that up.

December 4th is going to be yeah, that's the
date we're going to announce thewinners and, again, we're going
to tell everybody all about iton the next show, that's in two
weeks from today, and we'regoing to tell you exactly how
you can enter.
You can actually enter multipletimes and give yourself the
best chance.
We're giving away five vouchersfor certifications valued at up

(06:29):
to $400 per certification.
So that's $2,000 of giveawayawesomeness, which I think is
fantastic.
It's very generous from Gilda,it's generous from Salesforce
and, again, we do reallyappreciate the recognition.
Now I think it makes sense tosay if you are one of the

(06:50):
winners of these and you blow iton a $75 certification, well,
it feels a little bit like awaste, right, so they're worth
up to $400.
But if you use it on a $75certification, well, you're
blowing $325 right out thewindow.
But it's totally up to you.
So, whoever wins it, I imaginewe're going to have five

(07:11):
different winners.
You can't win more than once,but we're going to have five
different winners and you canspend it on the cert of your
choice.
You still have to earn the cert, okay, you still have to earn
the cert, but at least thesevouchers will help contribute
greatly to reducing the cost ofgetting your next certification.
All right, cool, anything else.
Any quick updates before welaunch into our topic of the day

(07:33):
here Vanessa.

Oh, no big news items lately as far as I can
think of in the Salesforceecosystem.
So I think the big news is thevoucher giveaway.
That is the big news.

I've got some really small news, but I was
equally as stoked.
You know.
Gilda said well, hey, josh, youknow what do you want?
You've got a hoodie, or you'vegot a hoodie already, right, I
was like I don't have a hoodie.
She's like why not?
It's like I'm not certified,I'm not like a trailhead guy, I
don't do it.
She's like cut that out, youdeserve a hoodie for all you do.
And I was like oh, my God,that's so nice and I swear to

(08:03):
God, no joke.
I almost cried because it feltyou know, we've been doing this
show.
It's like I don't even know, isit four years now?
It's a long.
It's been a while.
Yeah, the podcast not as long.
But we've been doing this sinceCOVID, right Since COVID came
out, and I don't even rememberwhat year that was, I think 2020
.
So we've been doing this forabout three and a half, four and
a half years I can't evenremember anymore and it felt so

(08:27):
awesome I've been.
You know, I first usedSalesforce in 99.
They were a client back in, oh2000.
I can't remember 1516 aroundthat time.
And then, you know, beenrunning this company for just
over six years.
We celebrated six years thismonth and so I got my hoodie and
it fits great.
And then, you know, beenrunning this company for just
over six years.
We celebrated six years thismonth and so I got my hoodie and

(08:47):
it fits great and it looksawesome.
It's a little bit warm to wearwhere I live, but I'm definitely
going to be packing it on mynext conference.
So thanks again to Gilda.
If you're listening to this,you are an absolute gem and a
star and we appreciate you somuch.
Thank you for yourcontributions here to the show.
And with that we're going to goahead and dive right in.
So today we are talking aboutthe different perspectives, the

(09:10):
different viewpoints, objectivesand relationship between
managers and their employees.
I'd like to start with Martha.
The relationships betweenemployees and employers can be
awesome.
They can be powerfulconnections.
They can be career magnifiersright.
They can career accelerators,and they can also ruin your life

(09:32):
right.
If that relationship is off, ifit's a bad match or a bad
personality or simply justpersonalities that don't gel,
what do you do to protectyourself Pape Group, the whole
team from potentially bringingsomeone on board that could
disrupt that sort of facilitybetween you and your employees?

Yeah.
So I think the thing for me isI take time when I'm in the
interview process.
I ask non-technical questions,like most people do, I think,
when they're in that process,but then I also try to find
strengths within the person andtheir answers on those
non-technical questions that canhelp support other team members

(10:20):
where they may be strugglingwith something or not quite as
strong, and so that's one thingthat I do in my interviewing
process to try to make sure thatpeople will be able to come
into the team and be a greatteam member and help solve the
problems, you know, not justtechnical but within the team
and the weaker points that wehave.

Sure and look you know, most people who are
managers or leaders in a spaceare.
You know they're both a leaderor manager, and they're also an
employee.
So how has being a managerinformed or changed your
behavior as an employee?

Well, that's a really good one.
I think what I've learned overthe time of being a manager I
kind of came into this role asat one level where I was working
in the team and then I, youknow, elevated up to be the
director, and I think what I'vereally taken into consideration
is that feeling of being in theteam and working with them and

(11:22):
keeping that mindset that theyare facing challenges.
You know, some days it'stechnology, some day it's team
members, sometimes it's outsideof work, and I try to keep that
in mind.
When I'm, you know, approachinga situation or a project,
whatever it might be, I'm takingthose things into consideration
and not just what I'm seeing infront of me for that project or

(11:46):
that particular situation.

Yeah, that makes sense.
And, Mariah, what's it like towork for your mom?
I mean, that's an interestingdynamic that most of us, I think
you know.
If it's 19 and we're allworking for our pops, you know,
grocery store in Brooklyn, likeit's a different thing.
Or mom dad's printing pressright, like it's not like that
so much anymore in America.
What's it like to work for yourparent in a professional

(12:11):
setting?

Absolutely, and I do want to clarify that I
don't report directly to Martha.
We would have a huge HR problemif that were the case.
Pape Group is a family company,but that would be just an HR
nightmare.
But I do work within Martha'steam.
I work on the marketingautomation team and my manager

(12:32):
reports directly to Martha, andour work is very much driven by
her as the director of CRM, andso for me, I love working with
Martha.
We had previously workedtogether at our consulting
company, and Martha is a serialentrepreneur actually, and so I
had always grown up aroundfamily businesses, so for me

(12:54):
it's quite second nature.
But Martha is the entire reasonI got into the Salesforce
ecosystem, so all of this reallyfeels quite natural, to be
honest, and that might be aunique perspective.
Some other people might notthrive in that environment, but
it's been great for me.

Sure, and just let's clarify real quick.
So it's only about 2.50 in theafternoon in Oregon, where you
guys are, and you shared with mea little bit earlier today that
it's Martha until five o'clockand after that it's mom.

Right, that's exactly what I was going to ask
when did?
It switch from mom to Martha.

Yep, it's usually 4.30 or 5.
So sometimes I will come downto the corporate office for work
and we'll have our work day andit's Martha, and then after 5
pm, you know, we will go and getour nails done together and
then it's mom and Mariah timeand we have a very clear cut off
of things that are talked about, aren't talked about, et cetera

(13:54):
.
So, and I think that's justyears of practice again from
having family businesses.

Do you ever slip up, though?
Do you ever say mom or mommy ina meeting, just by accident?

I did once say mom in a meeting and it
threw me off.
It threw me for the biggestloop.
It had never happened before.
So I don't know what had gonewrong in my morning, but we all
recovered, it was fine.

There you go.
There you go.
Interesting Vanessa, did youhave another question?
I don't want to dominate.

No, that was the question is when does it switch
from Martha to mom?

Yeah, there we go Now.
Mariah, you'd said something.
You'd indicated that and I'lljust quote you here that no one
cares about your career as muchas you do and that it's
important to take someinitiatives to ensure that
you're doing your best to lookout for yourself and for your
career.
Can you elaborate on that alittle bit?

My background before I got into the
Salesforce ecosystem was inoperations management for the
world's largest brewer,anheuser-busch, and I managed
truck drivers there, and what Ilearned about being an employee
while I was a manager was thatthe employees who really stuck
out to me were the truck driverswho would come and want to

(15:10):
learn more.
They would consciously maketime to talk to me about what I
was doing in the office becauseat some point they wanted to be
an operations supervisor, theywanted to manage truck drivers,
etc.
And I always appreciated thatbecause as a manager I had so
much to do, I had so much on myplate and sometimes I wasn't

(15:31):
very good at that sort ofprofessional development for my
employees, and I think that's anarea where probably all
managers can improve.
Josh and Vanessa, I don't knowif you agree with that or if you
hear that often.

Yeah, what do you think, vanessa?

I mean, I think it's true that the employee is
the only one who's going to carethe most.
It is their responsibility atthe end of the day.

Yeah, guys, look, get some autonomy, own your own
crap right, figure it out.
You're from the lucky club thatdoesn't ever really have to
work Like no one's really gonnalook out for your career the way
that you do.
And unfortunately, not enoughpeople do look out for their
career.
They don't even know how.
I mean, there's no class thatI've ever heard of and it's been

(16:17):
a long time since I've been incollege, but I've never heard of
, at least when I was coming upof a class that teaches you how
to look out for your career,right, how to speak up for
yourself, how to plan atrajectory.
Now there are people you know.
There are people in the US andaround the world.
Sometimes their whole careerlife is already planned out for
them, you know, and like they,by their parents.

(16:40):
Depends on the culture thatyou're coming from.
Sometimes it's like, nope,you're going to be a lawyer.
Nope, you're going to be adoctor.
Nope, you're going to be anengineer or anything like that.
But oftentimes you just kind offall into it because of two
things One, proximity to thecareers, just like you with your
mom, right, or with Martha, andthen also with just the sort of
genetic disposition towardsbeing able to have a certain

(17:05):
level, a certain high level ofcompetency within a specific
role, right?
So, as an example, I'm not apsychologist.
My mother is Mother's apsychologist.
I'm not, but I study humanbehavior.
It's part of my job, you know,and I think my interest in that
and my exploration in humanbehavior and reading facial

(17:27):
expressions and tone and burn,tempo and all of that stuff
helps me to do a better job.
So it's not falling too far awayfrom the tree but it's still
right in there and that's agenetic disposition.
So if you're in that situation,it's great.
You get the support of yourparents, get the support of your
family.
Some folks don't have folks tolook after them.

(17:48):
Other folks have folks, butthose folks aren't looking after
them.
And so ultimately theresponsibility lies on the
individual right To takeownership of what they're going
to do with their life and map itout.
And when you don't, you know,when you don't know where you're
going, you just might get there.

And I think there is a, you know, a certain it's
up to you as the employee toadvocate for yourself within
your organization if you arelooking to move in certain
directions or need support incertain directions.
It's for me, I kind of think ofit as like one of the things
that you can use as leverage tokeep you.

(18:24):
It's not always going to bejust salary.
Maybe there's mentorship, maybethere's time that you can spend
working in the Department ofShadowing, like also being vocal
about what your career goalsare, and hopefully you're
working with a manager thatcares enough about maybe giving
you some slack in that regard totry and explore new things and

(18:46):
see where you might have skillsor help build up those skills,
especially if they'd be valuablefor the organization as well.
I mean, I think that youultimately have to be
responsible, but trying to butbe vocal about it.

So just give it to yourself.
And you can also be responsible.
You know, one of the ways youcan be responsible is by
selecting opportunities atcompanies that do invest in
their employees, right, like oneof my clients, mike Vukovic,
over at Wise Wolves, they reallycare about their employees.
They do it at Galvin, they doit at remember we had our

(19:18):
friends Jimmy and Drew fromFlock came on.
They talked a lot about whatthey do for their employees and
helping to map out where theircareer goes.
And if it leads them off-prem,you know into another role,
that's okay.
You know it's still a goodrelationship.
They're still going to investin their employees, so I think
that's a really excellent point.

(19:39):
So, mariah, how have you sortof looked after and managed your
own career then?
Absolutely.

So while I was an operations manager, I
realized that I really did notwant to be in a warehouse 24-7.
And I knew that I had to sortof take a page out of the book
of those drivers who I reallyadmired, who would come to me
and try to learn how to be anoperations manager, how to move
up in the company.
I had to take a page out oftheir book and start to search.
Okay, how can I advocate formyself more if I want to change

(20:13):
careers, if I want to learn more, if I want to do something
different?
So that led me to talking tojust a bunch of different people
to figure out what's out there.
I think that we get maybepigeonholed.
If we go to college for aspecific major or we get a
specific certification insomething we tend to think
there's only one career or onlyone way to make money, and

(20:37):
there's really not.
There's so many differentopportunities.
And, of course, one of thepeople I started talking to was
my mom, martha Hardy, who hadfounded a Salesforce consulting
company.

Momtha Hardy, you can do that, momtha Hardy, I
like it.

Momtha Hardy, yeah, and she had said
you know, in your current jobyou are solving these really big
problems and you love solvingproblems, you love business
operations, you love makingbusinesses better and improving
things.
And did you know that you cando the same thing through the

(21:13):
use of technology and it'scalled Salesforce?
And I said tell me more.
And so that was really my firstbig step, and sort of
advocating for my own career wasjust trying to collect more
information, right, Not feelinglike, okay, well, now I'm just
stuck in this one swim lane thatI've chosen and now I'm going

(21:33):
to be here for 40 years.
That's just not the reality oftoday's economy, especially so
that was really.
The first step was gatheringmore information.

And then, martha, for you.
You know what is it like foryou as a leader and as a manager
when someone comes, when youhave an employee, and they come
to you and say, hey, I'm reallyinterested in growing my career,
can you help me?
I mean, how much more time,energy, mentorship do those
folks get over, say and I don'twant to call anyone on your team

(22:05):
average, but let's just say,tip, the more typical employee
who's kind of doing their job,of keeping to themselves.
What's that experience like foryou?

So I have regular check-ins, one-on-ones every
other week with my team membersand I try to talk about goals.
I bring up the conversationaround goals.
Some people are, yes, please, Iwant to set goals, I'm going to
crush them.
I have this roadmap for myself,like you talk about, josh.
Some people are driven withthat.
Others we set smaller goals,but I still like them to get

(22:35):
into the habit of setting somesort of a goal, just so that
then they can see improvementover time that they're with me
at the organization.
I will find other members thatsometimes I encourage them
because I'm planning for a newrole.
I need to expand our team.
I've expanded our team over thepast four years and so I will

(22:56):
find characteristics that Ithink would benefit that new
role that I need and then helpmentor the person and get them
trained to be able to step intothat role once I post it and so
what kinds of characteristicsthough?

I hope you don't mind drilling down on that a
little bit, because I thinklisteners want to know like,
well, what do you mean?
Like, can I demonstrate certaincharacteristics so I can, you
know, broaden my horizons orgrow in my role?

Yeah.
So when I think about so, Ihave a DevOps role that I
recently created and with thatrole I was nurturing
characteristics around process,right, they're very strict on
the process.
If I'm working with them andsomething goes out of sequence,
I can tell that it has notreally stopped them, but paused

(23:45):
them, Right.
So then I'm like, okay, theyare very process driven.
They understand you need tohave one, two, three and it
needs to go exactly in thatsequence and they are going to
do that every time.
And so those are the thingsthat I look at.
It's kind of depending on therole and almost like the
behaviors related to the role.
So, when I had to have a rolethat needs to be able to work

(24:06):
welly not welly, that's notreally a technical word but be
effective, working across teams,and to be able to manage
difficult situations.
Then I'm looking for a specificskill set that has presented
that they can address difficultconversations across teams when
there are dotted lines, becausethere's a lot of dotted lines in

(24:28):
our organization.
So I'm looking for that.
You know kind of thatpolitician mentality of I can
reach across the aisle and wecan have conversations and make
progress.

So a couple of questions I have for you, just
because stuff that I'vestruggled with when I've managed
teams.
So when you have these weeklycheck-ins with folks, do you use
the same format for themeetings for every person?
Like, is the same template thatyou'd use and, if so, like what
are the things?
What are your agenda items thatusually cover in these meetings

(25:00):
besides the goals?

Yeah, that's a good question.
So I don't use the sametemplate for everybody.
I tried that at the beginningand some people didn't respond
well to that same approach andso I worked with each individual
I'm meeting with and we haveour own way that we come into
our one-on-ones.
Some of them are more relaxedand you know we start with, you

(25:25):
know, maybe a 10 minuteconversation about lifespan or
something personal, and then wekind of get into project updates
.
Some people only kind of wantto stick to the project updates.
They don't really want a lot ofchit chat and then they want to
be able to go and you know, ifwe can give time back, if I can
give them 10 minutes back,they're like that's great.
Go, and you know, if we cangive time back, if I can give

(25:46):
them 10 minutes back, they'relike that's great.

So I think it just is kind of an individual
approach I've taken and that'swhat I've found to be most
effective.
Now, do you have separatemeetings on their I guess, the
career goal aspects or howthey're doing in their
particular roles, and how oftendo you have those meetings, or
is that just kind of?

incorporated in the weekly.
It kind of depends on theperson again, but we do yearly
evaluations and so during thatyearly review I set goals in
there, a trial basically, and wehave a software that manages
that and I set the goals inthere that I'd like to see for
them professionally in the nextyear, and then I've also helped.

(26:21):
Sometimes it's a personal goaland so I don't call those out,
of course, in the interview orin the review process, but we do
check in on those and I've hada couple of team members that
have appreciated that I, youknow, I've noticed something out
in their outside, outside ofwork space, and then we've
worked on a few things there.
So I've kind of become a mentorin a way, not just that manager

(26:44):
.

And the last thought I had on this and
another one that I kind of havestruggled with.
You know, when you have a busySalesforce team, there's so much
doing that needs to happen asfar as project work that it is
almost challenging sometimes toallot the time to have those
one-on-ones weekly.
How do you find that balancewhen there you know if there's a

(27:07):
project on fire or if there's alot of pressure to get things
done, like how sacred are thoseone-on-ones compared to the
day-to-day work that you have toaccomplish?

That's another good question.
I try to keep the one-on-ones,unless there's some you know,
some reason why I need to moveit.
And then if I move it, I try tokeep it within that same week.
If I'm not able to keep ourone-on-one, I always do a you
know a team's check-in and emailand ask the question you know,
is there something pressing thatyou need my help with or an

(27:37):
update you need to give me?
I'm sorry, I have to, you know,cancel our one-on-one for these
two weeks.
If there's, you know, somethingcomes up, I will fit you in,
and that's kind of the way thatI've approached that.
Usually the members, the teammembers that I'm working with,
they, if they see that there'syou know I'm very busy or
something is you know they'remindful that my time is under a

(27:58):
crunch they'll reach out to meand say, hey, I don't really
have anything this week.
I can give you time back and Iappreciate that too.

That's very good.
I think she muted her thing,but I think that's very, you
know, a responsible way toapproach it.
I know Steven could let youknow if he was speaking right
now.
I would say yeah, Josh rarelykeeps his Friday meetings with
me.
We have so many, you know.
We're talking mostly every day,right, so we can cover a lot of
this stuff.
But I'm a big fan of the weeklyor the bi weekly meeting and,

(28:28):
with some forgiveness, right,Like you skip one out of the
month, like it's not the end ofthe world, you know.
So you can be flexible and thenjust communicate via email or
Slack or, you know, whatever.
As you mentioned, Martha, youknow what's most pressing.
I'd like to explore for a moment, if we can, a little bit about

(28:51):
the way employees perceivemanagers versus and managers,
you know, perceive employeesbecause it's a real thing, right
, it's a real thing and you canthink of it almost in terms of
like being a student in school,high school, middle school,
grade school, you know, and yourteacher's the boss.
So we start with thatrelationship pretty early and
we're indoctrinated into thisexperience that this person's

(29:14):
older than us Generally.
It's not necessarily the case inthe working world, but as a,
you know, student teacherrelationship.
You know this person's older,they're taller than us, they're
bigger than us, and so and wespend years and years 10, 12,
well, I guess 13 years, whichcan include kindergarten in this
kind of environment, and thenwe go in to the workplace, where

(29:34):
there should be more deference,and so those kids who had
deference for their teacherstend to exhibit deference to
their managers, and the kidsthat don't in school tend not to
in adulthood managers and thekids that don't in school tend
not to in adulthood and theirlives suffer greatly because
they are practicallyunemployable when there's not
deference for the people who'vebeen there longer and have been

(29:54):
and have the answers right.
So it's a but as we mature andas we age, I believe our
relationships with our managersreally change.
You know, change in a very bigway.
Is that something?
I'll just open it up to both ofyou or anyone who's the speaker
right now to let us know howhave relationships changed,

(30:14):
either with your employees, asyou've gained more experience,
or with your employers or yourmanagers, as you've matured as
well?

managers as you've matured as well.
I've been lucky to have verygood managers in my career thus
far, so I've always had greatrelationships with them.
My managers have always lookedout for my career development,
for my well-being, for my health.
I think I've gotten very luckythere.
I will say one thing that Inoticed being a manager and I
was a very young manager in myformer career, before technology

(30:49):
but one thing that really stuckwith me is that when you become
a manager, you become part ofthe them.
If a company has the perceptionof them versus us, right If
them is the corporation if themas the management.
Once you become a manager,you're now part of the them, and
how you approach that is veryimportant.

(31:10):
A lot of that has to do withthe company culture.
You know how you're going to beperceived by your employees.
You know if they like workingfor the company, if they don't
like it, what decisions thecompany's making as a whole.
But it's a very tricky thingtransition to make.
It can be very challenging,especially if you're going from
a peer-to-peer relationship tothen becoming a manager.

(31:33):
So there's really no easy wayto navigate it.
And it does change.
It does change yourrelationships.

It sure does, and it does take time.
I interviewed a fellow todaywho spoke about this
specifically.
He was talking about howchallenging it was when he got a
promotion and now he was stillsort of a player coach.
I mean he's still doing thesame job as his employees.
Steven's had a role like thatin a prior life.
I've had a role like that in aprior life where all of a sudden

(32:04):
, these people that you'rehanging out with and kicking it
and getting drinks with, orgoing to the movies with or
having over to your house, andall of a sudden they're
reporting to you.
And this is why it can be.
You know it's important to havepositive, influential
relationships within theworkplace, but if your goal is
to grow your career within thatspecific and you are super

(32:26):
chummy, just like one of thechummiest chumpsters ever it's
going to be a massive and verydifficult transition into
leadership and a lot of timesyou might not even feel like
you're very supported by thosepeople that you believe you have
a strong, positive, friendlyrelationship with or even close

(32:46):
friendship with.
So to go from, you know, beingbest buddies with someone and
then all of a sudden they'rereporting to you, it doesn't
survive the way thatrelationship doesn't survive in
the same way that you or theymay want to, and it can be
difficult to feel like you'rebeing supported if there's any

(33:08):
jealousy or animosity or someonefeeling like they were passed
over and you got the promotion.
Did you ever experience that,Mariah?

Yes, and most of my management experience
again draws from my careerprior to technology, so you know
it's a different industrywithin operations.

Yeah, but it doesn't matter.
Like it's work is work, it'sokay.

Yeah, I did have a situation where I was an
operations supervisor and therewere a few people who wanted
the job.
That came open when, when mymanager left, I had a great
manager at Anheuser-Busch.
His name was Don Shout out Don,I know he's not listening, but
he was just incredible and heleft.
His senior operations managerposition opened up and it was me

(33:55):
and a couple of otheroperations supervisors who were
out of the Pacific Northwestbranches and a couple of the
other branches from the US andwe all kind of wanted this job
and I wound up getting the joband it really changed my
relationship with some of theother ops supervisors out of the
other branches and that wasreally difficult because, you

(34:16):
know, these were people whopreviously we were you know, we
were chummy, we would go to StLouis together for work trips
and it did just sort of changethe dynamic and I had to step
into a role where I was, youknow, responsible for a
multimillion dollar budget.
I was responsible for 50different but I was going to
gain something else and itwouldn't be a direct one-to-one

(34:53):
trade-off.
It's not like, oh, I lostsomething bad, I got something
good.
No, I lost something good, butI also got something else.
Good, but they're going to bevery different and that was a
really difficult transition, butit is part of your career path.
It is just sort of what happens.

It is what happens.
It is what happens and it's youknow.
I think it's worth mentioning.
This is a very excellent reasonnot to talk smack about people
in the workplace, right?
Don't be a sewer rat.
Don't dish the dirt, so tospeak, if you want to grow in
your career, because the lastthing that you want is to get
that promotion.

(35:30):
You beat out your friend andthen your friend turns on you
and starts badmouthing Now, thishas not happened to me, but it
starts badmouthing.
Now you're in a position ofpower.
Maybe they're trying to sinkyou, keep you from getting that
job, or maybe they're trying tobuild resistance to you.
This happens, right, there arepolitics in the workplace and

(35:50):
they are multifaceted andthey're different in each
company, but they fall into ageneral group of versions of
politics, and so you just don'twant to get involved in that.
Don't give anyone leveragenegative leverage on you when
you start a new job.
Just don't do it.
It's bad form and it caninhibit your career.

(36:11):
I mean, this is what TV showsare made of, right?
Something bad from the pastcomes back to bite you.
I mean, that's a normal theme.
You know that's probably one ofShakespeare's 16 general plots,
right?
So just kind of keep your noseclean when you jump into a new
job.
So I'd like to ask you, martha,what are some of the, what are

(36:33):
some of the things that you'venoticed have helped Like for the
employees that you have?
What are some things that someof your employees are doing that
help them to stand out in youreyes, that you know it grows.
It grows your esteem for themwhen they do blank, when they do
X, y, z.

(36:53):
What would some of those thingsbe?

I think the key is communication.
If they are communicatingeither with me or with the
members of the projects thatthey're working on, and they are
communicating in a cadence thatis appropriate and, you know,
not in a manner that is, I guess, not kind and not negative and

(37:16):
different things like thatPositive, friendly open.
Yeah, positive, friendly butprofessional.
Like I said, we have a lot ofdotted lines, so we're working
across organizations within ourorganization, and so I think
that's one of the things acrossorganizations within our
organization, and so I thinkthat's one of the things Are
they able to communicate in away that is effective and are
they able to get people to seetheir point of view?

(37:39):
A lot of times, it's us tellingyou know, or recommending best
practices, and so can theycommunicate that best practice
and the need to follow whatwe're asking in an effective way
and keep relationships, notburn bridges.

Sure, and what about you, mariah, from an
employee standpoint?
I understand you're a leader aswell, but from an employee
standpoint, what are somestrategies that you've employed
to ensure a positiverelationship between you and
your immediate manager?

So Martha had said that there are annual
reviews that she does with herdirect reports and something
that I love to do is actually todo quarterly reviews with my
manager.
And these aren't officialreviews per se, but I love to
set up a quarterly check in withmy manager to make sure that

(38:32):
we're covering any careerdevelopment that I need.
But it also opens up anotherline of communication, like
Martha had mentioned it just itopens up that line between me
and my manager even more.
So I know that if there'ssomething that's going to be on
my mind for a project, maybe inthe next six months, okay I can

(38:53):
just add that to my runningagenda for our next quarterly
check-in.
You know it's another touchpoint that I can have with my
manager to check those thingsoff the list that are in the
back of my mind.
So that's something that I loveto do.
It's another way to advocatefor my career.
I can come to those check-inswith some of my accomplishments,

(39:17):
some of the things that I wantto do.
I always come with an area Ican improve.
I think it's really important.
If you're going to send yourboss a list of your
accomplishments, you shouldprobably have one or two areas
you can improve as well.

Sure they're all perfect.
Well, it takes the bullet outof the gun which we talk about a
lot on here.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So yeah, those quarterly checkins for me are really great from
a communication standpoint anda career development standpoint.

I think it's impressive to just you know when
I have an employee that says,hey, I would really like it, if
you know, four times a year Icould have a special meeting
with you and talk about mycareer, not talk about the deals
we've got going on, the peopleI'm interviewing, the clients
that we're serving.
Just leave all of that off thetable and talk about how am I

(39:59):
doing, what should I be doingdifferently, how can I get
better, what's next in line forme and where can I invest my
time so that I'm better for thisrole right now and more
prepared for the role that'sgoing to come next.
That's powerful, right?
Because it's showingaccountability, which is
practically my favorite word inthe English language

(40:23):
accountability, and it shows pro.
You know, proaction,proactivity, what is the word?
What would you say Shows pro?
What is it?
Anyone?

An aptitude for planning.

How about that?
There you go, I like that, okay.
Aptitude for planning Okay.
Thank you, mariah, for rescuingme from my word salad Very much
appreciated Okay.
So, Mariah, you had actuallytalked or made mention that some
jobs can be like a form of paidgrad school and I love that,
but I wanted you you know someof our audience may have heard

(40:54):
us talk a little bit about thatin the past, but could you just
kind of elaborate on that alittle bit?

Absolutely.
This is a term that I heardfrom a YouTuber, actually
Michelle Carre.
She does these great YouTubevideos where she does impressive
stunts or she trains like aboxer for a week, et cetera, and
I heard her use this termbecause she had talked about
getting into YouTube.
It's really an on the job skillset, right, you can't really go

(41:19):
to grad school to become aYouTuber.
And even if you could, it wouldprobably be money not well
spent because things arechanging so quickly.
And when I heard her say this, Isort of had this light bulb go
off about my career intechnology and how I could
probably use my job as paid gradschool so I could learn as much

(41:42):
as I could.
I could soak up a lot ofknowledge, I could network and
meet a ton of people and be paidwhile I did it, whereas other
people maybe, who go to gradschool for a different type of
career and you know theyprobably need to go to grad
school for that career Forexample, if they want to go, you
know, teach history orsomething like that, okay, they
probably need to go to gradschool.

But for me perform surgery maybe right.

Yes, Build a bridge.
I I forgot about doctors.

Build bridges for people, things like that.
My husband's an engineer.

I should have known that there you go.
Yeah.
So this concept of paid gradschool I think is very relevant
for the technology industry.
And if you take that initiativeto set up these quarterly
check-ins with your manager, askfor specific projects that you
want to work on, things thatyou're interested in, Ask if you

(42:33):
can go to your local Chamber ofCommerce business lunch each
month, you know, and if youremployer will pay for that,
maybe one business month, excuseme, business lunch a month.
There we go.
There's your paid grad school,there's your network that you
would have gotten from attendinga university.
So there's a lot of opportunityout there.

There sure is, and I think, particularly for
people who are transitioningcareers, breaking into a new
industry.
For example, maybe they werewhatever?
An insurance adjuster and nowthey're going to be a Salesforce
administrator or consultantright, it's different, it's just
not the same thing.
They're both professional gigs,but, let's face it, you know
they don't have experience yetand sometimes they'll have to

(43:17):
accept an offer from a companythat's willing to take a chance
on them.
That's less than what they'vebeen earning and that can feel
painful, especially if they'rejust going to go into debt by
accepting this role.
But it's often not always, butoften a necessary step, and
that's something I share withfolks.
You know, fairly frequentlyit's just a different version of

(43:38):
what you've just shared, whichis look, you know, you go do
this.
Yeah, you're going to get paid30 grand less than what you're
used to, right, but that's onlygoing to be for a year and a
half or whatever.
It is right.
So you would go spend that on ayear of you know getting you
know for one year of an MBAprogram right, an affordable MBA
program that would be.
And so you've got to thinkabout what is this investment

(44:01):
like?
And, yeah, I'm going to takeless, but that value is just
deposits in the bank of yourfuture, right?
Because pretty soon now you'regoing to start making more and
more.
I mean, it happened with me.
I was making I think I wasmaking 90 grand at a job.
I was an internal recruiter fora multi-billion dollar

(44:22):
electronics company and I leftand I took a job for 55 grand.
Now I had a brand new baby.
It was tight.
It was difficult to accept sucha reduction in my compensation.
And then you know whatever thenext year I think I made you
know about the same that I'dmade in my other role.
And then the following year Imade twice in one year what I'd

(44:45):
made, you know, two yearspreviously.
So more than covered it, right.
And then it just goes up fromthere, right?
So you've got to look at thesethings, particularly now.
I'm talking about commissionstuff and you know sales stuff,
where there's less of a cap onhow much you can earn, but it
applies whether it's, you know,a commission role or not a
commission role, right, you'rejust going to get those raises.

(45:06):
But sometimes, yeah, you got topay for grad school by
accepting a job that will giveyou experience and opportunity
and mentorship in exchange forless money.
So, martha, what about for you?
I really am interested in whatkind of advice you give to
people.
Or actually, better yet, let'sfocus on this Confidence right?

(45:27):
Because you made mention that,the importance of confidence for
employees.
How do you help buildconfidence in your employees?

I think I start building confidence by giving
them small tasks.
I know that they can build uponand so say you know it's, I
need you to do X and I need youto do it at this cadence, and
then they can complete that.
And then it's like okay, well,now I want you to lead this
meeting for me and I need you toprepare like this.

(45:57):
And so I start with small tasksand have them build upon that.
And then you know, if I'mlistening to them and I hear
them say something, you know, Idon't think I can do that.
I just don't get it, I justdon't understand that.
Then I'll reach out at anothertime, just with them, and say,

(46:17):
hey, let's figure out how tomake it to where you do feel
like you can handle that, or yougot that under your belt so
that you don't feel like you'renot confident.
Um, because a lot of timeswe're working all, we're a
virtual team mostly, and sowe're on virtual.
You know web calls and all thattogether.
And so I want everybody to feelconfident.
And I do have meetings where Itell everybody I want you on
camera, but then I do havemeetings where they don't have

(46:40):
to be on camera, because somepeople aren't comfortable on
camera, right?
So I try to figure out how tohelp people build their
confidence where I can and it'susually it's usually on the side
to where people don't even knowthat I'm doing it.

Got it.
Can we talk about this camerathing, vanessa?
Do you remember we had like ago ahead and unmute?
Vanessa, do you remember we hadlike a long convo about this?
But I'm always happy to revisitit because to me I think that
people when they're on a meeting, if they were going to be at
the office and the meeting wasgoing to be in person, I believe

(47:16):
that they should have theircamera on right, because the
verbal communication, like wemiss so much on verbal community
, you know, outside of verbalcommunication, when we're
missing facial expression, tone,you know breathing, we can't
tell if someone's well or not,if they're feeling good, if
they're feeling sick, like wecan't tell that stuff.
But your opinion was that it'sgets really old, especially

(47:40):
after like eight hours on acamera where you're just going
to watch your death.

Yeah, I mean, I think they've done studies like
Zoom.
Fatigue is like a thing.
So for me, I think it reallydepends on what, like what are
you trying to get out of it?
So like if it's a discoverymeeting.
I think it's really beneficialto have cameras on, because you
know when they're talking aboutthe pain points, you can see the
pain in their eyes.
You can see if, when you'retrying to speak about a business

(48:07):
process that they just told youabout and you're trying to get
validation, you can see if maybethey give you a little bit of
an eyebrow at a certain pointand maybe you missed a step.
Or you missed a step.
That's the kind of stuff whereokay, camera I think really
important.
I think when you're havingthose quarterly meetings with
the folks that you manage abouthow they're tracking and how

(48:28):
they're tracking towards theirgoals and how you can support
them, they can see the empathyin your face if you have your
camera on.
I also think, like you know, dowe need cameras on for a daily
stand up?
Probably not, you know.
Do we need?
Do we need cameras on for Idon't know, like it depends on
on the meeting.

Yeah, if you're screen sharing for an hour like
who cares, right, like a problemwith a Jira board like is it?

does it really make a difference?
So so that's where I try to be.
I try to be upfront about whichmeetings I want cameras for in
the agenda, just so everybody'sprepared, cause it's also rough
when you're like, okay,everybody turn your cameras on
and like all of a sudden youknow I think I was having this
conversation earlier in the weekthat there's a lot of women

(49:16):
that work remote now that we allhave our trustee.
You know kind of looks fancycardigan draped behind our chair
and our trustee just have tothrow on lipstick and our
trustee scrunchie.
So if we have to lookpresentable in like a minute
flat, we probably could.
But I think a little bit ofnotice is helpful so that it you

(49:37):
know people understand what theexpectations are going into the
meeting.

Sure yeah.

But I think in general, having a default of put
on your camera if you want to,is you know is a little bit
kinder.

Definitely.
Might make sense your camera, ifyou want to is, you know, is a
little bit kinder, definitely.
Yeah, hey, mariah.
What do employees typically getwrong about management?
Like when they think ofmanagers and management.
Let's say someone's not amanager Anyone who's in middle
management gets it but let's saysomeone's you know, you don't
even have to be entry level, youcan be a, you know, like a
senior DBA or something likethat and not a manager.

(50:10):
Right, but what do employeesoften get wrong?
In other words, what are theycomplaining about their managers
?
That just kind of proves thatthey don't know what's going on.
Does that make sense?

That does make sense, I think.
Circling back to the careerdevelopment aspect, I think it's
misunderstood when a managerdoes not necessarily have that
as their highest priority.
An employee might think, oh, mymanager doesn't care about me,
they don't care about my careerdevelopment, I'm going nowhere

(50:46):
in my job, et cetera.
And in reality your manager hasso much going on in their job,
they have so much on their plate.
They probably have multipleexecutives who are giving them
different directions to run withprojects.

Yeah, definitely in IT, yeah.

Yes, especially in the CRM world,
because you're working betweenIT sales marketing etc.

All of it.

Yes, your manager has sometimes very
serious HR things that arecoming up, whether that's with
their other employees ortraining they need to do,
mandates, dates.
If you're in an industry thatis very dangerous or serious for

(51:34):
example, when I was inwarehousing your manager has
important things like people'slives that they're worried about
.
They're worried about safetyviolations, etc.
And so if you're thinking that,oh, my manager does not care
about my development, they don'tcare about me.
Usually it's just that they'reso busy they have not had the
time to reach out and schedulethat quarterly check in or to

(51:55):
ask if you wanted to go to thattraining next year, etc.
And so if you can just sort ofwrap your head around, their
plate is full.
And if I can just take this onesmall thing off their plate,
take it on the mind and insteadfeel empowered by that, that I
get to be in control of mycareer development and this is
what I'm going to do about it.

(52:16):
It makes things so much better.
It will really improve therelationship.

That is absolutely fantastic advice,
mariah, and I think it's verypoignant.
The tech world lost somewherearound 530,000 employees in the
last two years.
Serious stuff.
Half a million people losttheir jobs in tech, and it's
monumental and what that means.

(52:41):
It doesn't necessarily meanthat there's less work, right.
It might for some companies.
A lot of companies went out ofbusiness, but for some now it's
just the same.
Amount of work is falling onfewer shoulders, right, and it
seems like that's a perfectrecipe to let go of things that
aren't pressing, like what isSteven going to do in two years,

(53:04):
or what is Sheba going to do inthree years, or what's Mike
going to?
You know, concentrate on sixmonths from now for something
that might help him in fiveyears.
Right, that long-term stuff.
It just gets wiped right offthe desk and into the box and
then chucked in the closet andhopefully someone cracks it open

(53:25):
again someday during bettertimes.
But it's a real thing and Ithink a lot of people are
experiencing that right now.
So what can someone do when theyare feeling that way?
I mean, you've alreadyhighlighted a number of
different things, right, liketake responsibility, look for
where responsibility has beenabdicated and assume the
responsibility for it.
You know, what can we really doto have a better relationship

(53:47):
with a manager?
And I'll tell you the numberone reason why people leave a
job.
The number one reason is theydon't like their boss.
Okay, that's a fact.
So how can we, as employees, ifwe don't like our boss, what
can we do about it?
And, martha, I'm going to askyou a reverse of that question,
that question from a manager'sperspective here.

(54:09):
But I'm kind of curious whatcan?
Because, mariah, look, you'vehad I'm assuming you've had
employees, or at least coworkersand peers, and you get along
with your boss, fine, I thinkyou probably get along with
everybody.
But you're looking across thecube farm and seeing someone who
just hasn't figured it out.
What advice would you give tothose people who just can't seem

(54:31):
to get along or lack respectfor their immediate supervisor?

That is such a difficult question to
answer.

Yeah, it's hard.
If you need a minute, it's fine.
Let's open up the floor.
Reed, feel free to pipe up.
Peter, if you're on right now,feel free to pipe up Vanessa
you're asking how to deal with amanager that you don't like.
Yeah, yeah.
What should someone do about it?

I think I'm with Farai.
It's a tough one.
I mean generally, I think it's.
You know, maybe there's like amental decision tree on how long
have you been at the job, how,what are the politics, how big

(55:30):
is the company, how good is theopportunity, how good is the
market?
There's a lot of questions, Ithink, involved lateral, or
better then do that, but that'sthe nuclear option.

I mean like, what can we, what can someone do
before that?
I mean I've got some thoughtsbut I wanted to open it to the
floor.

Yeah, I mean, I'd love to hear yours.
I have not successfully managedto change any managers and go
wow, things are going reallyterribly.

And now they're going super well, because I did
X, y and Z, no idea, sure, yeah,no, fair enough.
Well, look, I've had somepretty pretty bad managers in my
life, not very good ones,people that I absolutely
couldn't stand and did notrespect, but still had to find a
way to get along with them, andsometimes I was able to do that
and sometimes I wasn't able todo that.
But I think this is about youjust apply the same rules for

(56:24):
wanting a successfulrelationship with anyone,
whether it's your you knowhusband, wife or romantic
partner, whether it's for aparent or with your child, right
or or with your friends, andthat is to first seek to
understand and then to beunderstood, right.
So you've got to ask yourselfand this is hard because these

(56:44):
are emotional things I don'tlike that person, and you may
know why.
Oh, he always does this, or shealways says this, or she
interrupts me, or I don't gettime on the meeting floor to
share my ideas.
They shoot my ideas down allthe time, whatever it is, they
always smile and say hi toeverybody, and when they see me,

(57:07):
they don't smile at all.
There are all these littlephysical cues that we can pick
up that makes us feel like we'renot liked.
And when we feel like we're notliked, we're probably not going
to like that person very much.
And, by the way, there are alot of terrible managers.
There are literally millions ofhorrible managers in America.
Millions of them people,millions of terrible, rotten,
crappy shouldn't be a leadermanagers in the world.

(57:28):
And it's a problem, right, andusually it starts with hiring.
But let's say someone islistening to this program and
they're in that situation rightnow.
What I would have you do is thefollowing.
Number one I would ask yourselfto really think what is this
person's responsibilities?
You know, what are they youmentioned earlier, like hey,
they could be really busy.
They're thinking about people'ssafety.

(57:48):
They're thinking about you know, they're reporting to five
different executives, like howmuch pressure are they under?
And, by the way, you might notlike your manager because you
think they're lazy, right,that's a possibility too.
You think that they're makingtwice as much as you, but
they're working half as hard,and that, guess what is kind of
how it goes sometimes.
Right, it just is.

(58:15):
So first try and understandwhat's the situation and then
try and focus on whatspecifically is like.
What was the moment?
I chose not to like this personBecause it's a choice.
Right, the feeling isn't achoice, but then the decision to
let that feeling drive yourbehavior around that individual,
that is a choice.
Does that make sense, guys?
That does make sense, yeah, sobecause you can be like yeah, I
don't like this person.
And when I don't like someone,we fall into certain patterns of

(58:35):
behavior.
Around people that we don'tlike, we're not gonna smile at
them, we're gonna avoid eyecontact, we're going to try to
avoid meetings, we'lldeprioritize the tasks that
they've requested of us.
For people that we like more, Imean, it's just, this is normal
natural social organization,right.
Some Rene Descartes stuff, somesocial contracts, this is like

(58:57):
basic human behavior things,right.
But then once we, when we canfigure out, it's like oh, I
didn't like them because Iso-and-so told me that they did
this and they screwed over myfriend.
It might not have anything todo with you, it could be hearsay
, right, and you might trust theperson that you heard it from,
and maybe there's somecredibility to it.
But maybe there's not.
You know, we don't know whattheir motives are for spreading

(59:18):
false things or amplifyingthings that aren't necessarily
that big a deal, right, like,I'll be like oh, I heard Zooey
Deschanel is really hard to workwith.
Now, I think she's a jerk.
Like that's stupid.

(59:38):
I'm sure she's not a jerk,that's just silly stuff.
So what makes you really notlike someone?
Figure out what was the turningpoint in your decision.
And then, how much are youallowing that behavior to rule
you?
Here's the other thing what ifthere was some stupid little
thing and then you just stoppedperforming for that person?
Or they've asked you multipletimes to get something done, or
to do a habit or change a habit,and you don't like them for it

(59:59):
because it feels like your momor your dad come down on you.
You know, I know I said I takethe garbage out, leave it alone.
Mom, you know, like and you canget these kinds of very
immature emotional responsesthat are on autopilot, right
that you just start behavinglike a child, like a hurt,
spoiled child Maybe not spoiled,but like a hurt or injured

(01:00:20):
child, right?
And so you've got to figurethat out.
And then I would encouragepeople to do two things.
The first thing I wouldrecommend you do is be amazing
at your job, despite your boss.
Do an incredible job.
They ask something of you.
Do it, do it fast, do it rightaway.
Become invaluable to them.
Right, they will.
It will change.

(01:00:42):
It will change.
And then you gotta ask yourselflike do I talk too much?
Do I look like I'm goofing offin the office too much compared
to other people.
Are my numbers down right?
That's your fault, that's nottheir fault, that's your fault.
People don't like takingresponsibility for their
misdeeds.
They don't like to do it.

(01:01:02):
How many people walk into apolice station every single day
of the year and say I did it, itwas me?
A lot of people do that.
Not.
A lot of people call someone upand say, hey, you know what?
I think that I've been not avery nice employee to have.
I think that I've been poutyand grumpy and that's probably
made me not the best person tobe hanging around or wanting to

(01:01:26):
spend time with.
And then that makes me feellike I'm being kind of cast to
the wayside and like I'munimportant here in this
business.
And I want to tell you I'mreally sorry.
This has been going on in mylife, that's been going on in my
life and so on and so forth,and I'd like a do-over.
So that's an option there too.
We've got Reed, who justunmuted.

(01:01:46):
Welcome Reed.

Reed Marquand (01:01:47):
I agree with what you said, but also with what
Vanessa said, and there's toomany situations to try to give
like a blanket answer to, Iwould think.
But let's say you're havingdifficulty with a reasonable
person, or you know someone youdon't know all that well or what
have you.
I think some of it is justfinding some common ground that
maybe is outside of work.

(01:02:08):
That doesn't mean you have togo to, you know a nuggets game
or what have you.
You know sort of thing.
But just try and you knowwhether.
Can I ask you to lunch?
Can I talk about how I can workthings better for you?
You know, don't fall on yoursword or anything like that, but
make it a bit more about youhelping them instead of bringing
a problem to them, saying youknow this isn't working out or

(01:02:29):
we don't get along together.
Don't be that forthright, justbe like hey, I'd like to talk
about how perhaps I can workwith you better, sort of thing.
Yeah, there you go Kind ofthoughts on that or your own,
but I feel like instead ofsaying flat out, hey, there's a
problem and we need to solve it,or go the nuclear option or any
of those things, maybe approachit outside of the core items

(01:02:53):
you're working on, outside ofcore personality between the two
of you, just see what kind ofcommon ground you can build from
.

Josh Matthews (01:02:59):
Yeah, that's really.
It's a really goodrecommendation, reid, and I
would say it depends.
I've had employees.
Look, I wasn't always the bestmanager, I just wasn't.
And you know, when I look backat my first handful of years in
a leadership role, I was reallyproud of a lot of things I did.
I grew a number one division ina big company and we kicked ass

(01:03:20):
.
We had a lot of fun doing it.
But there were some people, someemployees, that I'd hired that
didn't really gel with my style,and that's on me.
I didn't screen them enough.
I didn't figure out who's goingto adapt to my style of
management so that I don't haveto feel like I'm wearing, you
know, 10 different costumesthroughout the day.

(01:03:41):
I mean, you still have to.
Martha made a really good point.
You know you've got to sort ofcater to the individual, but the
individuals have to cater.
They all have to cater to themanager's style, right?
And if you don't fit with amanager's style and it's too
much work, if it pulls you toomuch out of your natural mode of
behaving and operating as anindividual, as the individual

(01:04:03):
that you are, it's not going tobe, it's not going to end with
ideal results, it might not endin disaster, but it's probably
not going to end in a promotion,right?
It's probably not going to endin a promotion, right?
It's probably not going to endwith like career acceleration
and lifelong camaraderie.
And I can tell you that I'vehad at least a couple people

(01:04:23):
come to me and tell me hey, josh, I need to talk to you.
When you said this in thismeeting, I felt like you threw
me under the bus.
Or when you laughed about blah,blah, blah it actually hurt my
feelings and here's why.
Or I felt like you threw meunder the bus.
Or when you laughed about blah,blah, blah.

Reed Marquand (01:04:35):
It actually hurt my feelings and here's why.

Or I felt like I had a.
Really I spent a lot of time onthis idea and I felt like you
shot it down before I'd evenfinished explaining it.
My listening skills were not onpar 20 years ago with what they
are now.
It took me time and a lot ofself-examination and ugly, ugly
shit to have to think about.
Nobody likes to do it because ithurts, it doesn't feel good to

(01:04:59):
think not nice things aboutyourself and, in particular,
it's even worse when you thinkabout how you may have you know,
without intention hurtsomeone's feelings right or made
them feel like they weren'taccepted, like that's a painful
experience for an individual togo through.
But it's really fuckingimportant that you've got to do

(01:05:21):
it, particularly if you're amanager, so that you can have
the kind of team that you wantand people feel like they can
come to you.
And I think that's a big thingas a manager and I want to ask
you about this, martha, afterI'm done with my mini diatribe
of hijacking this show.
But you know, creating anenvironment where people can
feel that, no matter what, theycan speak to you I feel like

(01:05:42):
I've always been able to do thatbut that they can feel like
they can come and tell youwhat's on their mind.
I think is critical.
Martha, what do you think?

Martha Hardy (01:05:49):
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, josh.
After I have a turnover on theteam either it's expected or
unexpected I always do someself-reflection on could I have
done anything different in thatsituation or to prevent that
situation.
I understand what you're sayingabout the team needs to be able

(01:06:12):
to evolve into the managerstyle, because I have actually
seen that I have a member Ithink of and they were very
structured.
They're used to more of astructured manager, maybe more
of almost like a micromanager.
And so it took me a little bit,took me about three months to be
able to effectively work withthat member when they joined the
team, because that's not mystyle.
You're a professional, I'm aprofessional, I've hired you to

(01:06:33):
do a job.
I expect you to be able to doyour job.
I shouldn't have to give you alist of everything to do every
week, right?
So so I do.
I do see that point, and theyhave come to the place where we
can work effectively togethernow.

Yeah, that's terrific.
I'm glad that you were able to.
I'm glad that you have that asa practice.
It really is.
It's like people do it whenthey leave jobs what did I do
well, what didn't I do well?
You can go check out, go toJosh Force on YouTube.
One word and it's the I lost myjob.
You know, like I lost my job,what am I going to do now?
Episode that's two part, butpart one talks a little bit
about that.

(01:07:06):
Part one or part two, I can'tremember.
Watch them all, Watch all ofthe videos.
But that self-examination isreally critical and guess what
people?
You can do it before you gointo a job.
Right, you can go in to get anew role and then you can just
pause and just sit there forlike an hour, a cup of coffee
and your morning cigar orwhatever you're doing, and the

(01:07:27):
scratch pad or your Evernote orwhatever it is, and just start
hammering out what did I do welland what do I want to keep
doing well, and where did I fallshort?
In my responsibilities, in mycommunication, in my fortitude
Did I have?
Was my skin too thin?
Do I need to work on that?

(01:07:48):
Do I need to toughen up?
Is my skin too thick?
Do I need to soften up a littlebit around others?
How do I want to be when I walkin on day one at this new
company?
Maybe I know one person overthere, Maybe I know no one.
This is personal reinventiontime.
Every time you swap jobs, youreally get to determine okay, I

(01:08:14):
made these mistakes in the past.
These are the ones that I'mcommitted and focused on not
doing again.
Here is my contingency plan.
If I'm feeling frustrated,instead of opening my mouth and
demonstrating dissent in ameeting in a public way, for
instance, maybe I will keep mymouth shut, even though that
hurts and feels painful it's ananathema to my typical

(01:08:37):
personality and behavioral styleand then I can sleep on it,
which is something you might notdo Now.
You sleep on it and then youcan figure out.
Does it still bother you thenext day?
Maybe you just played thepolitical game, my friend,
Congratulations.
You kept your mouth shut,because that's half the freaking
game.
Half the game of the politicalgame is keeping your mouth shut,

(01:08:59):
and the other half is speakingup when you might not want to.
That's politics, right there inan office, I think.
What do you guys think?
What are politics like in anoffice?
What are the things that happen?

politically.
I think you're right on withthat.
I think you're spot on.
Actually, it's knowing when tosay something and knowing when
to stay quiet.
Yeah, that's what I've learnedyeah, exactly yeah.

It's always that staying quiet part that I've had
to learn, you and me both.

Vanessa Grant (01:09:22):
I'm, I've been, I've run into that not heck.
I think I've probably even runinto it on this on the show
occasionally.
I think it also and with withmartha and mariah I'd be curious
to like consulting sometimescan be.
I don't know, maybe you have adifferent perspective.
I guess in my experience overthe years and with a lot of

(01:09:43):
folks that I've spoken to in theecosystem like consulting feels
very, in certain ways, acrossthe board not just in Salesforce
but just in general to me, andso I know sometimes I struggle
not speaking up and asking whywe aren't doing things
differently.
But I think maybe that's alsothe business analyst in me is,

(01:10:04):
you know, when so manyconsultancies, I think, spend
more time trying to figure outhow to make a PowerPoint
presentation for executivesthat's going to be read once
sexy and spend thousands on it,you, the client, spend thousands
on it as opposed to focusing ondelivering value and things
like that.
And these are across the board.

(01:10:24):
It's just the way thatconsulting has been done for
decades and that's the kind ofstuff where I find myself
particularly struggling to nottry and change things from the
inside and try to get folks todo things differently.
But I also feel like, oh, ifyou question why things are
being done, because they'vealways been done that way that
you could also not, you know,seem like you're not a good

(01:10:48):
cultural fit.

Yeah, fall in line, vanessa.
What are you doing?
Keep that mouth shut?
I mean, what a terrible feelingthat is, though, right, you
know we do get punished foropening our mouths people like
you and me, right?
I remember I was working at avery large company and I had a
middle manager title, and I didsome research on all the

(01:11:10):
employees.
I had a ranking of 1,000employees at this company and
all of their production.
Now, this was not my job on allthe employees.
I had a ranking of a thousandemployees at this company and
all of their production.
Now, this was not my job, right, but I wanted to look at this
because I'd realized that peoplewho have more than three years
of experience tend not to staywith this company.
We had insane amounts ofturnover.
It was terrible and I wanted tofix it, not just for my team,

(01:11:33):
but I wanted to fix it for thewhole company.
So I ran an analysis on howmany people are producing how
much after how many years, andthen I looked at whether or not
there were any programs forhelping people who are valued
employees and high producers tostay beyond three years, and I
brought it to the powers that bea couple of them.

(01:11:56):
I presented all of my findingsand I was basically told to shut
my mouth in a really nice way.
That's not your job.
We have other people that aredoing that.
I was like, are they?
And then I'm like, oh, are they?
But are they?
Because I'm looking at thestats here.
I haven't heard of anyinitiatives.
I don't see anything Like whatare you guys doing?

(01:12:16):
They didn't like that and amonth later they took $100,000
of revenue per month off of mybooks and wanted to kick me off
of my top client and then knockme down Like it was just.
It was so stupid I'm not sayingthat's why all that stuff
happened right, but it wasn'treceived well.
Now, when I came back to thiscompany some years later, they'd
fixed a lot of that problemright and I doubt it had

(01:12:41):
anything to do with me and myfindings and running it up the
food chain.
But it took them years and thenthey figured out.
It's like, oh, these peoplejust want a better title, they
don't even need more money, theyjust want to be called a vice
president, associate vicepresident, and that'll keep them
, keep someone there for another18 to 24 months.
That kind of stuff.

(01:13:03):
Bullshit stuff, you know.
But they figured it out, but itwas painful.
I got my teeth kicked in forthat and all I was trying to do
was save them money, reduceturnover and deliver better,
better results to our clients.
So you know it's like know youraudience, know when to speak up
and who, where you have alliesand where you don't like it's
politics is a real thing.
You know, martha, have you everhad to do?
You have any stories of havingto play the political game that

(01:13:25):
you feel comfortable sharing inan open forum like this?

I think.
I think for me, the challengehas been building the bridges.
So, you know, previously therewas the Salesforce was previous
to my coming on here at Pat BayGroup and there were other
people that had parts in thechoosing, the implementation,
those types of things, otherpartners that had worked on it,
and so I came in and reallyworked hard to build bridges and

(01:13:50):
earn trust.
I think that was one of thebiggest things that I had to
deal with the politics of youknow something prior to my time,
but that still affected me inmy role, and so I really worked
on building bridges and helpingeach one of the operating
companies, our divisions, buildup their team members that work
within the CRM ecosystem as well, and so that would be kind of

(01:14:12):
what I would say is, you know,dealing with that piece of it
and understanding and owningthat it was there, it was not
because of me, but it's stillsomething that I have to deal
with and struggle through.
Sure.

Yeah Well, thank you for sharing that.
Guys, we're coming up to thetop of the hour.
It's a 90 minute program andwe're just about there.
Before we say our goodbyes,just a couple of quick notes in
case you jumped into this show alittle bit late.
One, vanessa and I are givingaway five vouchers for
Salesforce certifications andwe're going to announce the

(01:14:44):
rules of that contest on ournext program, which is in two
weeks that is, the 6th ofNovember, so we may or may not
know who's the president by then.
Hopefully you cast a vote forsomeone that you really think is
going to do an awesome job andI hope you vote well.
The other thing is we have anumber of open positions, some

(01:15:05):
new roles that we'd like toannounce right now Engineering
Manager of Platform and QAAutomation.
Salesforce Engineering.
Manager of Product Developmentfor an ISV and a Salesforce
engineering tech lead.
We also have a Salesforcenonprofit consultant job.
We almost always you probablyhave heard this constantly we
are constantly filling theseroles because one of our clients

(01:15:29):
and partners is constantlygrowing.
So if you're an NPSP or anonprofit cloud professional
who's a consultant or anywherein the nonprofit world, we'd
love to hear from you,specifically Steven Greger, and
you can reach him, steven, atthesalesforcerecruitercom.
So stay tuned in two weeks andfor now.

(01:15:51):
Can't thank Martha and Mariahenough.
Dynamic duo mother-daughterteam over from Pape Group.
You guys have been fantasticguests, provided a lot of
helpful insights.
So thank you so much for beingon the show today and thank you,
vanessa.
Great questions, great insightstoday.
Appreciate Reed for piping uphere on this show as well, and

(01:16:12):
we're going to have a show withReed here fairly soon.
Got to get that recalendared.
So let's just say our farewells, move on and wish everybody a
great week.
Thanks guys.

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