Behind the Glow: How to Know If Your Red Light Therapy Actually Works with Bjorn Ekeberg of Flexbeam - Episode 269 - Sandy K Nutrition - Health & Lifestyle Queen

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Sandy Kruse (00:02):
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Hi everyone, welcome to Sandy KNutrition, health and Lifestyle

(01:38):
Queen.
This week, I am bringing to youa really great discussion all
about red light therapy, and myguest is Bjorn Ekeberg of
FlexBeam.
So Bjorn's going to break itdown for us and help us
understand which red lighttherapies actually work and what

(01:59):
do they work for.
The fact is is that the marketis saturated now and we buy all
these devices.
Some are really cheap, some aremid-range, some are really high
end and we don't reallynecessarily know how to tell the
difference.
So on feedspotcom, I will havethe actual link in my show notes

(02:33):
.
I was voted number three in thetop 20 best holistic podcasts
best holistic podcasts Guys.
This is such a big deal for meand I'm going to tell you why
and what makes it a big deal.
I never paid a penny to benamed here.

(02:57):
I've actually written a prettyimportant article, which I will
also link in the show notes ofthis podcast on my LinkedIn, and
it's really about this wellnessindustry, and I'm not calling
specific people out, I don't dothat.

(03:17):
However, I'm in this wellnessindustry and I have seen
unbelievable saturation,crowdedness, competitiveness,
ego power you name it.
Over the last eight years, it'sbecome crazy and it's no

(03:39):
different in some instances thanbig pharma, and so people are
left saying, well, who do Itrust, like, who do I trust?
All these people are paying tobe seen and who do I trust?
Well, you trust yourself, and Iget into this in this article
on LinkedIn, so I will link itin the show notes.

(04:01):
I would love for you to connectwith me there from a business
perspective.
I do do a few things, but mynumber one passion over profit
is this podcast.
You're going to read about whyin this LinkedIn article.
Also to support me, to supportmy work, to support my podcast.

(04:25):
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Now, being a paid member isn'ta fortune, it's eight bucks a
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It's just helpful for mebecause, as I explained, mostly

(05:09):
everything that I do on Sandy KNutrition is not mostly all of
what I do on Sandy K Nutritionis passion, passion over profit.
That's the facts.
So find me anywhere andeverywhere.
My sub stack is sandykruse.

(05:31):
substackcom the link will be inthe show notes and follow me
there.
You can also choose the freeoption as well.
I have some great episodescoming.
I would love for you to hitfollow wherever you are
listening to this and share thisepisode with at least one

(05:55):
person.
Do it through text, do itthrough social media.
Tag me at Sandy K Nutritionwherever it is that you do
social media.
And the other thing I'm goingto ask you to do is to rate and
review my podcast whereveryou're listening, because this
helps me to keep getting amazingguests each and every week,

(06:18):
like Bjorn.
And now let's cut on through tothis amazing episode with Bjorn
Ekeberg of FlexBeam.
Hi everyone, welcome to Sandy KNutrition, health and Lifestyle
Queen.
Today with me, I have a specialguest.
His name is Bjorn Ekeberg.
I pronounced it right, didn't I?

(06:40):
Bjorn?
Bjorn is coming to us all theway from Norway.
You're in Norway right now,aren't you?

Bjorn Ekeberg (06:48):
That's right, Sandy.
It's a pleasure to be on.

Yeah.
So Bjorn is the co-founder ofRecharge Health and is
pioneering breakthroughs in thewellness industry with FlexBeam.
It is a targeted infraredtherapy device that's
transforming recovery for over20,000 athletes and health

(07:12):
enthusiasts, and I will say Ihave been using red light
therapy for many years.
We actually built a therapyroom.
You know, back this is probablygoing back, I think it's around
seven years we were like, okay,what do we do with this space?
Do we want to build a home gym?

(07:32):
And we're like, no, let's builda therapy room instead.
So we have infrared sauna, wehave red light therapy.
Back then I didn't know aboutFlexBeam, and so I'm learning a
lot more about FlexBeam.
And today we're going to talkto you about red light.
We're going to talk to youabout the benefits, what to look

(07:53):
for in a device, because thespace is getting extremely
crowded, and this is really justto help you understand why you
would want this and truly, Ican't imagine my life without
red light.
I feel like it's one of thosenecessary devices.
So this is going to be a reallygood conversation and hopefully

(08:15):
everybody will.
You know, when they listen,they'll understand okay, I need
this for this and this is what Ilook for, and this is how I can
understand why there's so manydifferent devices at so many
different variances in price andcost and usage and it's getting
confusing.
So I'm just so happy to haveyou today, bjorn, just to

(08:37):
clarify everything for us and,with that, welcome Thank you for
coming today.

Thank you so much for having me on, and let's at
least give it a shot to try toclarify things.
I can also see the spacebecoming incredibly confusing.

Yes, but you know what?
Like, let's face facts.
It's the wellness industryoverall is getting pretty
crowded and we kind of don'tknow, like okay, like what's
right for me, and everybody hastheir own personal story on what
they need certain things for.
So I always like to ask what'syour story?

(09:12):
How did you get into thisindustry?

I didn't consciously get into it, it
pulled me in.
I can say my background is Idid a PhD in Canada, where
you're based as well, and I hada career path that I was a
philosopher of science and I waseducated in a lot of history
and philosophy of physics andcosmology, which I'd written a

(09:36):
book about and I've debated andI'm often invited to discuss
topics around that.
Still, it was part of my sortof academic background, uh, and
I made a conscious choice Iwanted to be in the creative
industries and build somethingand not be in academia.
And then many, many years later, um, like about six years ago,

(09:56):
uh, two of my currentco-founders pulled me and I knew
these guys from before.
They were based in asia, theythey were making hardware,
electronics type things, solarcell lamps and they were deep
into researching light and theytold me they'd come across like
they showed me the research likenasa research and behind that
pubmed literature on somethingcalled photobiomodulation, uh,

(10:21):
which is the sort of academicumbrella term for what we're
going to talk about here today,like red light and near infrared
light and ways you can healyourself with light.
And they were blown away bysome of the studies that showed
clear physiological impacts atthe cellular level from exposure
to near infrared light inparticular, and also red light

(10:44):
for skin, and they were justblown away that it's like.
This is not something we'dheard about before, which it's
also totally new to me.
So they were in a position tomake a device and like to
actually design it from scratch,because they also realized when
they researched this, likethere are panels out there and
there are lamps, and like youcan buy the stuff but nobody

(11:04):
seems to know about it, nobody'susing it, and we figured the
reason why is because it'sreally actually quite cumbersome
to use it that way and it's notreally optimally designed, and
we thought in the future, thisis something that is in needs to
be in every person's home andthe reason it's not there
already which is astoundinggiven that there are decades of

(11:25):
research behind it is thatnobody has made a device like
good enough to use at home orsomething that really actually
fits in.
So that's what we set out to doand we teamed up with a doctor
who medical doctor, who hasworked in the space for 30 years
with lasers and similar kindsof treatments and has always
carried around a dream that thisis something that people could

(11:46):
have at home so they don't haveto go to an expensive clinic
like hers to get reactive kindof treatment but could actually
proactive and preventively keepthemselves really healthy.
So my part of it was marketingand storytelling and like
getting like trying to take thisthing to market, trying to find
an audience.
And while we've been doing thisand perfecting our sort of

(12:09):
advanced, more innovativeversion of red light therapy,
the space has just completelygone explosive like and it's
suddenly now something prettymuch every person I meet, in
north america at least, haveheard about it.
Very few people may not haveused it, but it's now now a big
thing and when we started it wasvery nerdy and niche and that's

(12:29):
only six years ago that it waslike its own kind of little
industry.
So it's a very exciting timeand yeah, that's sort of the
background, how I came into it.
And now I'm all about trying todrive this kind of broader
awareness that I think we needabout what light is and how it
heals, and try to make sense ofthis discovery and make it

(12:52):
accessible to everyone.

I think that that's a good place to start, right
when you said what light is.
So you know, we get so muchconflicting information we get.
You know avoid the sun, don'tgo in the sun, it's dangerous,
it's going to give you skincancer.
But there's different spectrumsand there's a safe way to be in

(13:19):
the sun.
And how does red light therapyconnect to the sun?
Because we know every livingcreature needs light.
So can you get into thatconnection, bjorn?

Yeah, if we start at the like, let's start at the
macro level.
Yeah, it's with the sun, right?
Which is this like?
We have our own relationship tothe sun in our culture, but I
think we largely take it forgranted.
But it is a source of energy inall our entire solar system.
Everything that we see aroundus and ourselves are all based

(13:56):
on the sun.
It's like our plants the plantsthat we eat get their energy
from the sun and the animalsthat eat the plants get energy
from the sun, and so on, and wedo directly ourselves.
The sun comes to us, the way wemeasure it through physics, on
an entire electromagneticspectrum, as we call it.
So it's a whole range ofwavelengths that we've been able

(14:16):
to identify, all the differentpeaks and valleys of what is in
the sun's total energy fieldpeaks and valleys of what is in
the sun's total energy field,and that goes from the gamma
rays on one side of the spectrumto like really minute, like
longer wavelengths.
In the middle you have somethingcalled visible light, which is
the light that we see, andthat's only a tiny part of that

(14:36):
spectrum.
And infrared is in the heatsection of the spectrum, is
invisible but it's close to it.
So that's just the broadercontext that the sun has all of
it and we're exposed to it allthe time through our atmospheric
bubble, in our little earthlycorner.
But most of the time when weare exposed to sunshine we get

(14:58):
exposed to a whole range ofwavelengths that are also off
the spectrum of what we can see.
A lot of that in the infraredrange.
Actually, more than half of theenergy from the sun comes from
infrared, which is associatedwavelengths that are also off
the spectrum of what we can see.
A lot of that in the infraredrange.
Actually, more than half of theenergy from the sun comes from
infrared, which is associatedwith heat.
So I just wanted to lay out ifthat makes sense as a starting
point.

Mm-hmm.

So this whole study of photobiomodulation, or
how light affects our physiology, starts with some insights on
how certain wavelengths seem totrigger certain responses in the
body, and the standout here isnear infrared light.
It's in the spectrum of 800 to880 nanometers, sometimes up to

(15:40):
950 if we're getting verytechnical, sometimes up to 950
if we're getting very technical.
But where the body seems tolike there is a cellular
mechanism that starts happening.
That's been uh welldemonstrated and this light is
something that we get if we'reout in the sunshine a lot.
But what red light therapy cando, and what we did in a
concentrated device like ourflex beam is just having these
wavelengths that are clearlyassociated with the healing
response in the body.

(16:01):
Red light therapy can do andwhat we did in a concentrated
device like our flex beam isjust having these wavelengths
that are clearly associated withthe healing response in the
body and just sort of isolatethem so you can have access to
them anytime.
So it's more concentrated thanthe sun, but the energy in red
light therapy and infrared lightit is the same as what comes

(16:21):
from the sun, so that's why it'san entirely natural kind of
solution.
We already get this, but notenough of it.

Okay, and not enough of it, I will say,
because I think it's even worsenow because everyone's like oh,
you know the sun, the ozone,everyone's going to get skin
cancer.
Listen, I come from a verydifferent point of view, where I

(16:52):
try and get sun on my skinwithout sunscreen.
Okay, not right now, becauseToronto's horrible, but even
when you're out in the daylight,like I walk my dog every single
day during the day, and I tryand get the light on my skin.
There's certain situations, ofcourse, like I'm not going to go

(17:13):
and suntan and bake my skin,but a little bit of light is a
good thing.
So tell me why near is like,would you say, near is the most
healing of all the spectrums oflight.

That's the one that's most closely associated
with a cellular response, andthe reason has to do with the
wavelength, the length of thewavelengths, which is what
determines where you are on theelectromagnetic spectrum.
So infrared wavelengths arelonger than the visible ones we
see, so they're too long for theeye to catch, but when they are

(17:56):
just long enough they penetratethe skin.
So the infrared that you getfrom the skin if you imagine
that you, for example, face abeautiful sunset or sunrise or
something that glow, you see theredness in that moment, but you
can also feel the sun's impacton your skin.

(18:18):
It feels warming.
That warming effect is infrared.
So even if you just saw apicture but there's more to it
than just that it's a beautifulcolor that infrared, certain
wavelengths of it, can penetrate.
If you have enough dosage orenough concentration, you can
penetrate two, three, up to fourinches in through the skin.

(18:40):
So that way you're able toreach cells, cells in muscle
tissue, into joints, ligamentsetc.
And what's under the, thedermis and epidermis, like under
the skin, and this opens up toan entirely different method of
healing, in a way, becauseyou're able to expose those

(19:00):
cells to something that theythen react to, and there's
cascading reactions at thecellular level and with blood
cells and so on that it'striggered.
So this ability to actually godeep into the body without any
invasive procedure, just throughlight, that is very specific to
near infrared and I thinkthat's related to why that has

(19:21):
such an effect.
Most other wavelengths cannotpenetrate and if you go to a far
infrared wavelength, forexample, that is popular in
saunas currently, thatwavelength is actually so far it
doesn't go through.
It actually interacts with theskin and induces sweat, which is

(19:42):
why people tend to likeinfrared saunas because it makes
them sweat a lot.
People tend to like infraredsaunas because it makes them
sweat a lot, right?
So there's a very narrow windowof wavelengths is what I'm
after here that has this abilityto penetrate the skin and
that's, I think, the secretbehind sort of near infrared
therapy.

Can it reach as deep as like organs?

Yes, it can if you are close enough to it and
have the right dosage right.
So I'm sure, as we're gettingfurther into this, we'll discuss
more around power and dosageand these like differentiating
factors between devices outthere.
But if you have the rightdevice and you can put it
straight on like you can reach akidney or a liver, for example,

(20:23):
and shine a light there, andthe reason why that is of
significance for your health,potentially is that your organs
are the most packed withmitochondria, which is the
organelles in your cells thatare responsible for energy
production.
You have them all over yourbody.

(20:46):
In fact, it's been calculatedthat 10% of your body weight
consists of mitochondria.

It's just like they are an enormously large part of
your whole system, but they areunevenly distributed and
there's a lot of them in yourgut and in your organs
specifically.
So, yes, targeted treatment isable to reach organs.
Yeah, you and I were brieflytalking for, for those of you
listen, you know I don't have athyroid gland those of you who
have been listening to mypodcast for a while, and so it's
different for me but a lot ofpeople who follow me have
thyroid dysfunction and I doknow that certain devices again,

(21:26):
it depends, I guess, on thewavelength and the power can
actually help those.
And we're not making medicalclaims here, by the way, folks.
We're just providingeducational information.
This is not medical informationfor anybody specifically who's
listening, but I do know ofindividuals who have used

(21:49):
specific red light therapydevices, who have Hashimoto's,
which is an autoimmune diseaseof the thyroid gland, because
and I think one of the factorsis exactly what you said, bjorn,
about the mitochondria yeah,yeah, I think that's the main

(22:10):
established mechanism in theliterature for the question why
the heck does this work?

And then there's so many studies that show
correlations between light, likeusing red light therapy, and
versus control group for certainvarious outcomes for pain and
inflammation, muscle repairrecovery, pain and inflammation,
muscle repair recovery.
There's a whole lot that isstudied in terms of its benefits

(22:38):
, but the cellular level, it'sthe mitochondria that seem to be
the trick, and mitochondria areessential for your health in
any kind of longevity sense aswell.

Yeah.
So for anyone who doesn't know,I mean your mitochondria are
the powerhouses of the cell andwe know that as we age, our
mitochondria gets, or can get,more and more dysfunctional as
we age, right, so it's prettyimportant that we keep these
little mitochondria healthy.

(23:08):
Question so we kind of touchedon near, but what about mid?
Because you hear near mid, far.
What does mid do?

There are fewer studies that show anything in
particular around the midinfrared.
I know there are variouswavelengths that have been
studied.
The most intensively studiedare in the near range and in the
far range.
Um 940 nanometers, I just sawstudy on, would be considered
probably still near bordering onmid.

(23:43):
Uh, from what I am able tounderstand and again I'm not the
scientist here, I'm just tryingto wade through the different
information and and filter it umis that the wavelengths then
end up in a range that makesthem less effective at
penetrating.

Basically, and far.
I guess far is more of thatwhole body detox sweat therapy
is.
Does that make sense?

yeah, so that would be sort of 11, 1200
nanometers and up and furtherout on the spectrum.
Then the wavelengths are solong that they actually do not
penetrate the skin, but theyinteract with it, as I was
mentioning before, so theyinduce a sweat response yeah, so
I guess it has some benefit,depending on what you're going
for, right?

(24:34):
Yeah, it is, and it's more youget into the infrared.
Let's say, the further you getout on the infrared spectrum,
the more heat you generate.
Right, and heat therapy has itsown uses, just like cold
therapy and others.
But when we're talking aboutnear infrared and red light,
we're talking about a specificmodality that's able to treat in

(24:55):
a way like you're stimulatingyour cells to be stronger and
better at what they do, to bemore efficient, and that's a
completely different modalitythan applying heat and cold, for
example, which can bebeneficial for circulation, and
there's a reason why a lot ofathletes use it.
But what's unique aboutneuroinfrared light is this
capacity to actually feed moreenergy to the cells.

So then it has like it would.
Logically, it would make sensethat you know it's not a one and
done it continues.
If you use it regularly, it'scontinuing to do good things for
your body.

It really does and it's consistent use over
time is what will yield the realbenefits.
And I sometimes worry that alot of the hype around the space
and the confusion is comingfrom.
You know all the marketing likethis, like relieve pain, reduce
inflammation, get rid of thisand that and all of it that it's
the impression that it's just aquick miracle kind of fix and

(25:58):
you can just use it for half anhour one day and then it's fine.
It really you need to use itover time.
In some cases you can getresults very quickly, but mostly
, and if it's any kind of issueyou've had for a while, it's
something you have to integrateinto your daily life.
And that's actually where westarted, when we wanted to

(26:20):
innovate on the existing redlight therapy out there was
realizing that, yes, you can buya lamp or you can hang a panel
on your wall and stand in frontof it, but in order to get
benefits from red light therapyyou have to be consistent in
using it.
And if you have a complicatedor like it's a more cumbersome

(26:40):
way, we know that compliancegoes down as in people stop
using it over time.
You know we all go through thatinitial phase of the honeymoon,
of like, oh, this is exciting,I read about this new thing and
I'm going to try it.
And then after a while, um,taking off all your clothes and
standing in front of a sort of apanel for half an hour, like

(27:01):
every night, it gets old fast.
So our vision of this is thatit has to be something that is
in skin contact, close to you,portable, so that you can you
can integrate it into any partof your day, and that's what we
set out to do with FlexBeam.

Yeah, because I'm one of those panel users and I
don't, at the start, exactlylike what you said.
Like you know you go.
I feel like it's just not aseffective either.
Versus, let's say, I'm justgoing to give an example here,

(27:37):
just throwing this out therelet's say you're somebody who
kind of has issues with tendonsright, I actually know I have
more of a predisposition tohaving tendinitis genetically
and I've had chronic Achillestendinitis.
I actually had to do PRP manyyears ago and it worked.

(27:58):
But I feel like when you have achronic issue in an area let's
say you're a golfer and Ipersonally know through
experience that when it'sapplied directly onto the body

(28:21):
it's just more effective.
Because I have the panel and Ihave found that the panel is,
you know, sure I might begetting a whole body effect, but
when I need something moretargeted, I've also used cheaper
devices Bjorn, and you know I'mgoing to say more economical

(28:41):
that's a nicer word, isn't it?
But there's a lot of reallyyou're not sure if it's really
doing the work.
So people who are looking forsomething that is proven, what
do they look for?
Because we know there's a lotof these little devices that you

(29:04):
can just put on your body thatsay they're red light therapy
and do all these magical things.
What?

do we look for?
Yeah, there's a couple ofthings to look for that are
differentiating marks, I think,of a good device versus a not,
or one that is questionable.
But if we start with panelslike the comparison with panels,
for example there are manyprofessional grade panels out
there that really have greatpower output and have the right

(29:34):
dosage Like they're actuallylike really good panels you
might have one of those.
Like we know, most of thepanels on the market they
actually all come from one oftwo factories in China that
produce them and then they'rebranded and lots of people are
competing with the same idea.
Basically, if you have theright LEDs in them and so on,
you get the right output.
The same idea basically, if youhave the right LEDs in them and

(29:55):
so on, you get the right output.
The issue with panels has to dowith compliance that you just
talked about, and just over timeit's more cumbersome.
But it's also abouteffectiveness, because you can't
stand very close to a panellike very close, and stick your
skin close to it without kind ofburning your skin, because
they're very hot.
They also have a lot ofradiation, like EMF radiation
for those who are watching thatas well and so you need to stand

(30:19):
at a distance, and that's whatthey recommend.
Also, the further away you arefrom a panel I mean only if you
are 10 inches away from a panelyou lost something like 80% of
the output, right, because it'sonly effective close to the
light source itself, but youhave to stand away from it, and
you have to be evenly away fromit, which is even more difficult

(30:40):
with a curved body and so on.
So if you're standing up frontof the panel, your nose is
getting more exposure than yourears, right, just because of the
penetration depth.
Yeah, all of this is kind of ofit's physics and it's just uh,
transforming like very strong,good lights into a practical
usage.
So that's why we wanted todevelop a different, something

(31:00):
you could wear on the skin andso on.
The other differentiating factorother than form factor for use,
uh, is power, which is theother part of effectiveness,
right.
So you need to have the rightdosage, and our inventor's rule
of thumb for this is if itdoesn't have a fan, it's not

(31:21):
strong enough.
So any belt out there, anylittle pad or panel that has it,
can have tons.
I have seen ones that have likehundreds of leds, right, like
little red diamonds all around.
It looks like it covers a lot,like we run that through our
tests and our optical spectrumanalyzers and measure the output

(31:43):
.
I mean the total output is likea 20th of what a panel or a
flex beam will have right, orlike sometimes even just one
percent of it is like it's megaineffective.
So from a pure physicsperspective, you cannot apply
that even straight on your skinand get more than just
fractional kind of penetration,because the dose is just not

(32:03):
there, it's not strong enough.
Uh, so that's the reason why youwill find cheaper contraptions
on the market.
Especially Amazon is like a seaof garbage that we see like
devices that have all the sameclaims that is associated with
red light therapy.
All of those claims associatedwith red light therapy are also

(32:25):
cleared by the FDA as a certainmedical class, status, etc.
Status, et cetera.
So there are things you canbenchmark against.
That it's it's devices in thiscategory are known to or are
okay to say that it, you know,heals in various ways and
reduces inflammation, all ofthat stuff.
But they're kind of free ridingon the medical category with
completely ineffective devicesthat have minimal output.

(32:45):
Um, so you may see some skin uhimprovements, for example by
using something like, uh like acheap belt type solution in that
area, but any serious chargingover your mitochondria, it's
just not going to happen.

That is so important, what you just said,
because I actually I think I dida show on red light therapy,
like maybe it was in my firstyear and I think that was what
was missing.
We talked about the like thenanometers, you know, for near
mid far.

(33:23):
We talked about that.
But you just mentioned the fan.
So I have, I have, that panelthat I told you about and it has
a fan.

Yeah.

I have your FlexBeam right here.
For those of you who areactually watching this.
This is what a FlexBeam lookslike and I've been using it and
I'll explain what I've beenusing it for in a minute.
But I also have those cheaplittle belts, because they're

(33:55):
cheap, cheap and cheerful, so,but there's no fan and what's
really fascinating.
So for anybody who's listening,you will see that they are FDA
compliant because their littlebelt carries that proper

(34:15):
whatever spectrum nanometers forthe device to be classified.
However, it's missing the fan,it's missing the power.
You will not get the same bangfor your buck.
Let's just say You're not goingto get the results.

That's exactly right, and it's about dosage and
I think it's the missing pieceeven in the FDA compliance
because, you're totally right,it's associated with wavelength
and everybody talks aboutwavelength and there's a lot of
nerding out there about specificwavelengths and so on, and from
all the research that we cansee is that within a spectrum
it's all effective within acertain spectrum.

(34:57):
What really matters, beyond justbeing within this generally
part of the spectrum thatclearly works, is really much
more important is the output.
So whether it's an opticalpower, like how many watts it
gives as a total, and irradiance, which is a measure of how
dense that energy is on yourskin, that those are the factors

(35:21):
that go into a dose, and doseis just one of those things that
heavily researched and I meanwe can talk about uh, also the,
the different, like there'sranges within which it's very
effective, that we can see, andit varies individually.
But all of those sort ofcheaper devices that don't have

(35:44):
built-in fans that means thelight are not powerful enough,
that's, and it's not out enoughoutput in the light to cool them
down, right, like to be cooleddown none of those devices are
able to give you a dose anythingnear what is being demonstrated
as necessary.

To actually do anything that's going to be
lasting in the body.
Yeah, that's very powerful foryou guys who are listening.
Just you know if you're goingto get anything out of like and
to understand because it's socrowded out there in red light.
Just understand that.
And, of course, look at thewavelengths, but you know it's

(36:22):
going to have the rightwavelengths if it's saying it's
FDA cleared right.

Yeah, it's.
A more distinguishing mark isthe energy density and the
dosage, like basically how muchlight is being fed, because that
also determines the ability topenetrate.
To put it this way, a weakerdevice will also not penetrate,
it will not give you the dose,but it will also not travel far
enough into your body and to hitenough cells to actually for

(36:49):
that theoretical energy at thesurface to be actually taken up,
to actually for thattheoretical energy at the
surface to be actually taken up.
So, in a certain sense, themore powerful your dosage, the
deeper it's going to go and themore energy it's going to give
you.
That being said, there's adifferent side to this, where
too much is also not a greatthing.
So you don't necessarily wantto grill yourself, but you just
want to make sure that you are,like within at least above that

(37:11):
minimum threshold actually alittle bit above but that it's
powerful enough to stimulatemore of your cells.

Oh question, since you mentioned that we don't want
to grill ourselves, of course,like you, don't want to fry in
the sun either, but are thereany contraindications for
anybody who's using a red lighttherapy device that is really
powerful, like yours?

Generally speaking, no Like.
There are a couple of groupsI'll return to like specific
cases, but generally speakingthis is what's kind of
fascinating about near infraredlight is there are no known side
effects to doing too much, forexample, what too much means is
that your body adapts tooquickly and therefore you don't

(38:13):
get an effect.
Now that's a strange notion inthe body that's called a
hormetic stress response.
So your cells, basically theyrespond because they're being
stressed into becoming stronger.
To put it this way, it's thesame principle as goes into
something like cold plunging.

(38:34):
It's the same principle, reallythat goes into hard exercise,
for example, is that you aretemporarily making your cells
weaker and more stressed inorder for them to bounce back.
So everything, all the researchon dosage is about finding
there's an optimal window.
It's sometimes referred to asthe biphasic dose response.

(38:57):
It is like a Goldilocks zone inthe middle where you hit just
the right notes.
The body is appropriately oradequately stressed, but doesn't
get so much that it can'tquickly recover from it either.
So too little, we alreadycovered.
That's like clear from the weaklights, then no response.
But too much just leads to thebody basically over adapting and

(39:18):
you're not getting the responseyou need.

That makes a lot of sense for me, because I am like
the queen of balance.
I actually have a t-shirt thatsays it's all about the balance,
you know.

It's all about the balance.

Yeah, but that's life, it's all about the balance
in everything in life.
So it does make sense to me,because when I was really using
that panel in my little therapyroom the big one it said your
body.
There will be no benefit toyour body if you use it for

(39:52):
longer than 15 minutes andwithin I think it was six hours
or something or maybe eighthours.
So basically you could do itlike in the morning and you
could do it in the evening andyou'll kind of have that balance
.
If you do it anymore it'sreally not going to benefit you.
So it's kind of like you workwith a lot of athletes, right.

Yeah, that's right.
We have a lot of athletes andsort of biohackers and health
professionals are ambassadorsand use the device heavily.

So how do they use it, bjorn?
How does an athlete use it?
How does an athlete use it?

(40:53):
How does somebody who's evenstill because most of my
listeners are over 40, we're nottalking about 20 year olds, who
have a little bit more you know, resiliency and youth behind
them, right?
So if you're over 40, you know,I personally have taken a
little bit of time off from thegym.
There's reasons for that, butthere's a lot of people who are
massively, you know, workoutenthusiasts.
So how do they use this?

So one of the strange or weird things about
red light therapy that makes thewhole space confusing, I think,
is that the potential, like thelist of potential benefits and
applications, is just so longthat it almost sounds ridiculous
Like from we talked about painand inflammation, muscle repair
and so on, and then you can.
The list goes on and on and onand it's like it sounds too much

(41:27):
.
It sounds like one of thoseAmerican infomercials from the
90s, kind of it's like wait,there's more, there's this.
Uh, right, so, and we see thiswe survey our users, what they
use red light therapy for, andit really is covers a whole
range of different applications.
But broadly speaking, I wouldsay there are two main sort of
ways for our device, which isportable or like a wearable in

(41:51):
the sports fields.
It is targeted for any forinjuries or prevention of
injuries.
That's why most of our soccerplayers, tennis players, golfers
and so on have embraced it.
That has to do with the nature.
The design of the device isthat it can wrap around any part

(42:12):
of your body, so it actuallyfolds completely around an elbow
or around a knee, for example,which means you get light from
multiple angles and, as we justtalked about.
It penetrates right and it canpenetrate from three different
angles at the same time.
You can treat deep into ameniscus, you can treat like
into an elbow joint.
So this makes it unparalleledin effectiveness for treating

(42:35):
something relatively deep oranything targeted in the body.
So for a lot of athletes, forany hips or joints or any
targeted areas I think most ofus have some sort of spot in the
body that's weaker or that ismore prone to injury or that is
maybe recovering from an oldinjury.
So for any such uses it's avery easy solution, so to speak,

(42:56):
and that it's actually just.
You just roll it aroundwherever you need some of that
extra attention and just blastthe energy right there where
it's needed.
So that would be the sort ofthe more the most common use for
anybody.
Really, you don't even have tobe an athlete to use it this way
.

But that's the sports angle can I, can I just
interject here?
So I think this is an importantpoint because I have a lot of
women who listen, who areperimenopausal or menopausal or
even past menopause, and there Ihave a lot of women in my
community who are not takingbioidentical hormones.

(43:37):
And this is no judgment, it'sjust saying, you know it's not
for them.
And a very well, I'm going tosay it this way A very
well-researched point is thatwhen our estrogen declines as
women, we tend to get more achesand pains.
Okay.
So, and just like what you said,bjorn, a lot of people have a

(44:01):
weak spot.
It's like that, you know, likeI know for me, right around the
time I was beginning late stagesof perimenopause, I started to
develop problems with my wristand it's like my weak link.
So I will say this is anexcellent application for women

(44:25):
who have that weak link, andthat can be whether you're on
HRT or not, like I'm on it, butbecause I have thyroid issues,
you know that, in addition tobeing in menopause those two
factors this has been amazingfor me.
And then I also want to saythere's amazing benefits for

(44:49):
women who want their skin tolook better too, right, yeah,
which is remarkable, isn't it?

That it also works for the skin, which we
haven't even talked about.
No, no, no.

But I wanted to mention because I know you're
talking about athletes becauseso many women who listen to my
podcast are in my same agecategory.
I want to mention I know a lotof women, honestly, that are my
age.
I don't think I know a singlewoman that doesn't have
something wrong, whether it'sfrozen shoulder or problems with

(45:22):
their elbow, problems withtheir knee, problems with their
feet.
It's amazing.
I don't think it's talked aboutenough, but FlexBeam I've been
using it in, you know, my littlehyperthyroid state that I've
been in for a while and it'sreally helped me.
But it can also help women whoare in a hypothyroid state,
women who are in aperimenopausal or menopausal

(45:45):
state.
So you don't have to be anathlete to use something like
this.
I just had to interject therebecause I know that there's so
many women who will go oh my God, yes, I need that.

Yeah, and that's actually a perfect bridge or
interjection for like betweenthe two broad areas that we see
of usage for flex beam.
So the sports athlete drivenone, it's really muscular,
skeletal right.
Sports athlete driven one, it'sreally muscular, skeletal right
.
So it's repairing anything thatis either your muscles or any
joint, tendon, ligament,skeletal kind of function is in

(46:19):
some way impaired.
This kind of treatment is likeis unparalleled for that and
that's why it's a no brainer fora lot of top athletes to use
and then for people who aregenerally, but for anyone that
has this kind of issue.
The other broader category iswhat I would call a health
category.
That is much more about.

(46:40):
It's about gut health, it'sabout organ health, women's
health.
This is actually a big emergingissue from a lot of our users.
Big emerging issue from a lotof our users can be used against
endometriosis and complicationsaround this period, pain cramps
, muscle, menstrual cramps.
It's based fertility as well,because you can again, you can

(47:05):
target a certain area into yourovaries with the light if you do
it at the right setting.
So a lot of these sort of moreinternal kind of uses that are
health promoting.
Longevity is a big thing aswell, and then a lot of the uses
are either along the spine oron the gut or directly on the
organ.
This is a kind of use that is,we are seeing a pattern among

(47:31):
our users.
It's very, very common.
I think there is an increasedfocus and awareness around our
general state of health that youdon't need to necessarily have
pain in your elbow specificallyfrom an event to be able to
benefit from a targetedtreatment like this.

That's amazing.
So you can put this device onyour belly just to improve your
gut health in general.

Yeah, and in fact this is now one of the most
popular applications we have andwe designed this.
When you see the device youheld up and show it to your
listeners, anyone that wants tocheck it out online as well.
You'll see it sort of designedand optimized for like wrapping
around a shoulder, elbow, etcetera, or anywhere on the body
for musculoskeletal.
What we didn't really quiteexpect was all these uses around

(48:21):
gut health and organs and so on.
So with gut health there is asteady flow of new studies and
Dr Zulia Frost, who's ourmedical doctor, who's one of my
co-founders she sends me sort ofevery week new studies that are
emerging in this field and ingut health.
There's some very, veryinteresting one that show
changes to the intestinal flora.

(48:43):
Your whole microbiome isaffected by the light, provided
of course you can reach it withan appropriate dose.
But by the light provided ofcourse you can reach it with an
appropriate dose.
But all the light receptors inyour gut respond to this light
and because your gut is solinked to your brain through the
gut-brain axis or this neuralpathway, it can also have

(49:04):
cognitive effect for a lot ofpeople.
So we have special protocolsfor that, like how to improve
your gut health over time with adevice like this.

That's amazing.
So, wow, I wonder.
I'm just curious, I wonder ifthere's any research.
Maybe you would know this isI'm just top of my head thinking
about this.
You know, here in Canadathere's been so many people who
have had this walking pneumoniaLike I'm wondering if it would
help the lungs.

(49:33):
If there's any research there.

There's a lot of emergent research on long COVID
and post-COVID type studies thatshow a definite effect in, like
recovery times for people.
I myself was one of those.
Like I got a really bad case ofCOVID a few years ago when it
was finally hit me, in which itwas really lodged in my throat

(49:59):
and I mean I think I was advisedto take all kinds of antivirals
and crazy things or just liketrying all of these different
things to try to keep this atbay, and in the end it was
actually my own flex beam that Iapplied as it occurred around
like this and put one lightdiode straight on my throat for

(50:20):
20, 30 minutes a day, likereally just the kind of
aggressively going at it withnear infrared light, just right
where it was lodged and for whatit's worth, it was the most
effective, like nothing elsereally helped it.
But once I started doing that,it kind of reversed it very
quickly and we know a lot.
We have a lot of use cases thatsuggest using it over the lungs

(50:45):
can help with any respiratoryinfection or recovering from it,
and the reason again, like whythis makes sense is that you
have a lot of mitochondria inyour lungs and you are able to.
With a flex beam you canactually reach into your lungs
and stimulate them so that theyrecover much faster.
In fact Dr Zulid just sent me astudy yesterday that was doing

(51:07):
this like test control groups,randomized control, trial, um
comparing red light therapy.
They didn't use flex beam but acomparable device with the
comparable like in terms ofoutput and wavelengths, um that
really showed like remarkableresults, like 30 40 faster

(51:27):
recovery for patients in thelong covid.
I'm happy to link to the studyif you want to for your
listeners, but these kinds ofresults are kind of mind-blowing
.
But again, when you understandthe sort of the mechanism, how
it works, it makes sense that ithas a lot of these potential
upsides or benefits for, like,respiratory type illnesses.

(51:49):
So recovering from a cold, forexample, much faster with a
device like ours.

This is fascinating to me because I didn't even
think about asking that until Iwas talking to you.
I'm like, oh my God, like thelungs.
Yes, so many mitochondriawithin the lungs and a lot of
times, okay, I also had COVIDand you know, I don't.
I don't know this was.

(52:16):
It would have been like atleast two or three years ago
when I got it and I had that,you know, the six or eight week
cough that never goes away, andI never would have thought of
red light to help with this.
Because you know, just like you, you know I was given all this

(52:38):
stuff puffers, steroids,antibiotics, all that stuff and
truly what helped was I actuallyfinally started taking high
doses of N-acetylcysteine,finally started taking high
doses of N-acetylcysteine, andthen I resolved it kind of
myself because I had to takematters in my own hand.
I'm like I'm not coughinganymore.

(52:58):
Damn it, I can't do thisanymore.
But you know what Does yourwebsite have?
A lot of the research on there,bjorn?

Yeah, we have a scientific studies section in
which we give abstracts but wealso link to the original study
so you can get a glance.
Look at the studies that youwant.
Like that are more interestingfor you.
But there's this curatedselection I would say, so I'm
going to make sure I put youknow obviously in the
description.

I will have your website, I will have your
website, but maybe I will alsoput I'm going to have to remind
myself put a link to the linkthat is specifically for the
research, because a lot ofpeople want to see the research
Now in the research.
Here's a question for you Doesit so?
It will talk about the spectrumand the wavelengths, but does

(53:48):
it also talk about the powerpart of it, like your device
actually has, like outputinformation, does it?

Yes, and you'll find it in most devices and also
in most studies it's specified.
If it's a serious study it'sspecified the output, at least
the irradiance or the density ofthe device.
So that's usually possible toascertain.
I can mention in the COVIDstudy I just saw, which is very
recent, there was a 30% fasterdischarge from hospital for that

(54:24):
group that used a comparabledevice to ours in terms of
output and wavelength, right,but they measured it against
this pretty large control groupa comparable device to ours in
terms of output and wavelength,but they measured it against
this pretty large control group,measured it against antibiotic
and physiotherapy.
So one group got antibioticsand they got physiotherapy and

(54:44):
the other group got red lighttherapy and the LED, like this,
treatment with red light therapywas twice as effective on all
the markers for heart health andlung health heart health.

How does it affect heart health?

uh, that has to do with the circulation in in
your whole bloodstream and theimpact on red blood cell.
I mean the link between theheart and the lungs was also
measured here.
This is like pulmonary diseasestype studies and so on.

That's amazing.
I'm so glad we uncovered thisin this recording Because I
don't think a lot of people knowthis, Bjorn.

No, it was really fascinating research.
And again, the game changerhere is like near infrared right
Light at the right dosage,right?
Uh, I think a lot of the hypearound red light therapy and a
lot of people hear about it nowis the red of red light therapy
which we haven't talked aboutyet, which has to do with skin.

You, may have seen how cosmetic applications there
are.

You may have seen how cosmetic applications there
are.

Yes.

And probably for a lot of listeners of yours as
well, like red light therapy ismaybe primarily they've heard of
it through something like amask or something like an
application for skin.

Right, but those masks, they don't have a fan, do
they?

No, and they don't have any infrared light.
So here is this is one of themost confusing points that we're
faced with.
So when you have a panel likeyou're using and like our
version now, flexbeam, which isa more like a newer, more
advanced innovation on that, butit's basically the same output
as a panel.
It's just packed into a kind ofa belt-like shape, both of

(56:33):
those.
We call it red light therapy,but it's really red plus near
infrared, and the near infraredis very strong In our device.
It's particularly what weemphasize.
But a typical panel and alsoflex pin will have both of those
wavelengths.
So red works for the skin andnear infrared under the skin.
However, this whole new masksensation that has appeared in

(56:55):
all the cosmetic applicationsthat are all as red light
therapy red light therapy isjust red light, so it only goes
skin level.

Like, just like, probably like the first, you
know layer or two.
It doesn't go deep enough toreally make lasting change,
would you say.

I would differentiate it as that it will
work on the skin.
It will give you very nice andglowing skin, but it will not
stimulate cells underneath theskin or it won't have the effect
that infrared light is able togive, because it penetrates
Right.
So a mask can give you a verylike a.
A mask can give you a very likea good mask will give you a
good glow, so to speak.

(57:36):
Like.
It will work on the skin,because the red light is very
clearly shown to improvecollagen production and elastin
production in the skin, and sothere's a very good reason why
it's sort of exploding as a as aphenomenon.
What gets confusing is that itthen covers over near infrared
light, which is really the morepowerful, deeper kind of

(57:57):
penetration and more healthbenefits you get.

So red light only is is really only works on the
skin so because I'm just kind ofthinking, because women my age,
you know, we've got a fewissues Like we've got like the
skin, we get melasma, we getwrinkles, but then we also get

(58:22):
jowls.
I'm just making aging sobeautiful, aren't I?
Let's be honest, I like it yeahbut it's true, right, these are
the issues and I like I had todo a lot of work to get my skin
to where it is now, and I had tobecause I really didn't care

(58:43):
much for my skin when I wasyounger, let's just say, and
also, health has a big, it has ahuge impact on your glow.
How you look on the outside,it's always inside out, right,
of course.
So this to me, I'm justthinking logically so if I just
go and buy one of those reallyexpensive masks because they are

(59:06):
expensive I mean, I've seenthem upwards of even five grand
for some like that's a lotYou're going to get probably
maybe a little bit of fading ofmelasma, right, because it's
like skin surface, but it'sprobably not going to work deep
enough to help with, like youknow that I like to say because

(59:31):
I'm a big skin geek, you know,getting that snatch jawline, not
having the jowls Well, you needto go a little deeper for that.
So it kind of makes logicalsense that you got to go more
with a more powerful lightspectrum.
With a more powerful lightspectrum Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does.
However, if you only have redlight, you don't necessarily
need to have extremely highpower necessarily, because if
it's close to the skin, what youwant is to cover it as evenly
as possible with a certain kindof dosage.
But the power is particularlyimportant for near infrared

(01:00:14):
because it affects thepenetration possibility in there
, what else you stimulate.
So you're 100% right in thatbeing able to penetrate more
deeply and to treat more deeplyleads to better overall health,
which then has its impact on theskin anyway.
It's just that red light hasits own like surface level

(01:00:36):
effect as well that you can get.

Sandy Kruse (01:00:41):
See, yeah, I get it like the red light, but I'm
just thinking.
You know it should improveelasticity of the skin too,
right?
If it's going to improvecollagen improves elasticity,
which would help with the jowls.
It's kind of like this you know, wonderful downstream positive

(01:01:02):
effect.

Bjorn Ekeberg (01:01:03):
Yeah, like if you have both.
It's the most beneficial.
If you have near infrared andred, it's like you get deeper,
but most of the masks and mostof the cosmetic applications
will only be red and if theyhave near infrared built in,
they will usually be quite sortof weak right.
What they have going for them isthey're often designed for the

(01:01:26):
face, to contour around the faceand so on, and they're easy to
put on.
So I know of some masks thatreally work.
I also know of some masks thatlook similar, much cheaper, and
that don't work, and I'm prettysure some of the highest priced
ones aren't necessarily betterthan the mid-range ones, right.
So this is also a big markupterritory.
But overall, cheap masks also,from everything we know, don't

(01:01:50):
necessarily work.

Okay, so let's, because we're I think we're
almost at an hour, but I want tofirst of all do you have to
protect your eyes when you usethis, Like on your, because I
haven't used it on my face yet.

No, I mean as long as you avoid staring
directly into the light for anylong time.
I mean, if you just close youreyes while you're using it, then
it's totally fine.

Because I think I saw some research about if you
use red light just with youreyes closed, it can actually
help with things like maculardegeneration and it's actually
good for your eyes, but not,like you said, staring right
into it.

Yeah, this is some of the more interesting
research in recent years thathave emerged.
A lot of attention on how itcould potentially reverse cornea
conditions.
It can be very helpful formacular conditions with red
light specifically.
That being said, it's morerecent than the cases we've seen
.
It's more experimental and it'sall very specific to dose.

(01:02:58):
So be careful if you want toexperiment this way.
We don't recommend anybody justusing it like a regular muscle
session and just do 10 minutesand stare into the lid.
That's really not advisablebecause it's a very specific
kind of condition.

Okay, yeah, and again you know we are saying,
we're just not dangerous.
We're just having a discussionhere.
You have to talk to your ownpractitioner about anything that
you're going to do that youknow you're not sure about and
that might affect your health.
So make sure you do that.
But I want to quickly look atthis, because your flex beam has

(01:03:39):
three different options.
Why is that?

Yeah, and it relates exactly to what we've
been discussing now thedifference between near infrared
light and red, discussing nowthe difference between
near-infrared light and red.
So we wanted to give people aneasy way to differentiate a skin
treatment from a deep tissuekind of session.
So we have three settings.
The first one is skin mode, soit's primarily red light, so

(01:04:05):
it's similar light spectrum asyou will find in a very advanced
mask.
We don't usually promote it forthe face because if you look at
the way it's designed andshaped it isn't really like it's
really designed for like tocover any kind of body part.
But you can use it for yourface.
If you just hold it, say, 10centimeters away or something,

(01:04:31):
you can light up your whole faceand get a nice even glow.
So you can't use Flexbeam foryour face or any part of your
skin.
But often people are lookingfor something specific, like
they buy a face mask separately.

So you don't want to lie on the couch with it just
like on your face, you have tohold it farther away.

I mean, if you put it, it's just the
practicality thing, Sandy, thatif you just crunch it on your
face, you're going to getcertain spots of your face are
treated, but not the whole thing.

Got it.

So if you can hold it at this kind of distance
, like to here in front, youwill get an even glow around so
that your whole face will beaffected.
So it's totally possible to useFlexBeam for that, and that's
number one.
That's for setting, one Veryoften used, or like more
frequently used perhaps withwound healing or anything also

(01:05:20):
on the body, like for scars toheal faster, etc.
Then you want the surfacesetting with maximum red light
and a little bit of nearinfrared to get sort of just
into the epidermis, but not more.

Okay.

Setting two is comparable to what you have in
your panel, I believe, which isequal amounts of red and near
infrared.
They're both these bandwidthsat the same time and both quite
strong.
So that's the medium likethat's the center option.
If you're ever in doubt it'snever really wrong you can
always use setting two.
And then we have setting three,which is our particular

(01:05:55):
innovation is we just maximizethe near infrared and we have
just a little bit of red so thatyou get conduction of light all
the way through the skin andalso skin sort of reaction to it
.
But it's really the whole thingis that it goes deeper.
So we call that the deep tissuekind of treatment.
That's what you would use ifyou need, for example, to treat

(01:06:16):
into a joint.

Okay, that will have a deeper penetration.
I guess, or if you want to do alittle bit of you know gut
health work, you want to usenumber three because you want to
have it a little deeper, right,yes?

Two will also work because it will penetrate
and give more on the skin leveland a little bit further in, but
three will go the deepest.
So, yeah, reaching more deeplyin, or if there's an organ
you're trying to target for afew minutes, or something like
this, then setting three isprobably the most popular
setting on the device, which isquite unique for red light

(01:06:51):
therapy devices as well, to havean infrared or predominantly
near infrared setting.

I'm just thinking see, this is my brain turning.
I'm just thinking this would begreat for saggy skin on your
abs too.

Yeah, I think then you want to to use setting
two, which has more red light init as well, and you get them a
more sort of complete, um,complete range of treatment from
the skin level and in yeah,yeah, you must think I'm so
shallow, I'm really interestedin the, the aesthetics, so not
at all, and a lot of our usersare, and of course it's.

(01:07:32):
I mean, we're talking about somany potential benefits and
applications and it's a targeteddevice.
I mean sometimes maybe the thebiggest challenge is where.
Where do you want to start andtreat first, because you can't
do everything at the same timeand all day around either for it
to be effective.

Yeah, this is.
This is such a greatconversation.
We covered so much.
Is there anything that wemissed that you wanted to
mention before we close off?

I think we covered the most important parts
around.
Now let's see wavelengths anddosage and how to differentiate
different devices, and I hopethis was helpful to bring some
sort of clarity on some of thoseissues.
And I think, for anyone who'seager to check out more, we have

(01:08:23):
a website rechargehealth.
This is where we also sellFlexBeam, which is our device,
so you can either search forFlexBeam or go to rechargehealth
.
We have lots of scientificstudies and more background
information.
For anyone that wants to deepdive a bit more and learn about
specifics, we have alsointroduced a membership program
that's guided by our doctor,medical doctor.

(01:08:45):
So we have a space base.
There's a free space that youcan access, with protocols for
specific things like gut health,immune support, all of those
different things that are ourdoctor's specific guidelines for
how to get the most out of yourdevice, like how often to use
and where and so on, topersonalize it.
And this is also, I think, adifferentiator for us in the

(01:09:07):
space.
We want to innovate on thedevice itself, but it's really
about education and making surethat people understand and that
they can use it properly, andthen new uses are also invented
as we go along.
I mean the stuff about guthealth and some of the glands
that we talked about.
We didn't really have this inmind when we designed it and we
discovered our users arereporting back.
Hey, it's amazing for my liver,right, and it's like, oh, oh,

(01:09:29):
yeah, but that makes sense.
And then we make a liversupport protocol for it, etc.
So I love that we are alsoevolving this as part of a part
of the business, and soon wewill also have an app that makes
it easier for people to get theguidelines straight on their
phone.
Um so uh, I encourage you tohave a look there and to check

(01:09:49):
out some of those features, andespecially around the education
of it.

This has been such a great and you know very.
I think we uncovered somedifferent things in this
conversation than the usual,which is what I always like to
do, so thank you so much foryour time.
I really appreciate thisconversation.

Thank you so much , Sandy.
It was a pleasure to be on.
Thanks for having me.

I hope you enjoyed this episode.
Be sure to share it withsomeone you know might benefit,
and always remember when yourate, review, subscribe, you
help to support my content andhelp me to keep going and
bringing these conversations toyou each and every week.

(01:10:42):
Join me next week for a newtopic, new guest, new exciting
conversations to help you liveyour best life.

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Behind the Glow: How to Know If Your Red Light Therapy Actually Works with Bjorn Ekeberg of Flexbeam - Episode 269

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Behind the Glow: How to Know If Your Red Light Therapy Actually Works with Bjorn Ekeberg of Flexbeam - Episode 269