July 10, 2024 • 43 mins
What if the body positivity movement you know today is actually working against its original goals? In this episode, we're talking about how the body positivity movement, initially focused on fat liberation and dismantling oppressive systems, has been hijacked by mainstream culture. Learn how today's body positivity often centers on privileged bodies, sidelining those it was meant to uplift, including fat, disabled, and BIPOC individuals.
We're talking about:
- how mainstream body positivity can uphold & sometimes even strengthen the oppressive narratives of diet culture
- the harsh realities faced by people in larger bodies when it comes to accessible clothing & public spaces
- the economic & social justice implications of these exclusions
- how the lack of inclusivity in fashion & essential public spaces not only impacts personal aesthetics but also creates significant barriers in employment & daily life
- weight bias in the medical field & beyond, and how weight stigma leads to inferior healthcare & delayed treatments.
- how anti-fat bias seeps into employment, education, and even the judicial system, with shocking statistics about wage disparities & job discrimination.
This episode is a powerful call to move beyond superficial body positivity towards true body liberation and fat positivity, advocating for systemic change and inclusivity.
Referenced in this episode
"From New York to Instagram: The History of the Body Positivity Movement"
"Body Positivity Doesn't Mean What You Think It Does"
Ragen Chastain - Templates to Ask for Accommodation
Stay in touch with the pod on IG @satisfactionfactorpod!
And here's where you can continue to find us:
Sadie Simpson: www.sadiesimpson.com or IG @sadiemsimpson
Naomi Katz: www.happyshapes.co or IG @happyshapesnaomi
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Naomi Katz (00:03):
Welcome to Satisfaction Factor, the podcast
where we explore how ditchingdiet culture makes our whole
lives more satisfying.
Welcome back to SatisfactionFactor.
I'm Naomi Katz, an intuitiveeating and body image coach.
(00:24):
I'm Sadie Simpson, a groupfitness instructor and personal
trainer.
So this week we've got anothergreat topic that we think you're
really going to enjoy.
But before we dive in, just aquick reminder about the
satisfaction space, our onlinepodcast community.
We know it can be hard to findanti-diet community that's
aligned with your values,especially if you're the first
in your family or friend groupto make moves towards ditching
(00:46):
diet culture, and that's why wecreated the Satisfaction Space.
If you've ever found yourselflistening to the podcast and
wanting to add something to theconversation or ask a question,
this space was created for you.
The Satisfaction Space is anonline membership community that
includes a private community offolks who share similar values
and interests that you can talkto and connect with outside of
(01:08):
Facebook.
Bonus content during thepodcast, off weeks, monthly live
virtual hangouts with us and acommunity feed where you can
post your comments or questionsand get feedback from us, as
well as your fellow communitymembers.
Membership to the SatisfactionSpace is just $10 a month and
can be canceled at any time andyou can enroll at
(01:29):
thesatisfactionspacemnco andthat link always lives in our
show notes.
Sadie Simpson (01:36):
If you want to support the show but don't want
to commit to a monthlymembership.
We also have merch.
We recently added four newdesigns inspired by our Joyful
Movement Athlete conversation afew episodes ago, so we've got a
handful of designs on TeePublicthat can be printed as stickers
, t-shirts, sweatshirts, mugs,tote bags and whatever else you
like.
T-shirts and sweatshirts comein sizes up to 5X and you can
(01:57):
check that out at the link inour show notes.
Naomi Katz (02:00):
So we've talked before on the pod about how body
positivity is a great entrypoint into more expansive ideas
about body respect, bodyliberation, fat positivity and
fat liberation, and we all needentry points, right, right, so
like no shade to entry pointshere.
But today we're going to talkabout some specific reasons why
(02:24):
body positivity is not reallythe whole picture and not really
the answer that we often thinkit's going to be when we first
start down this road.
Yeah, so I have used thisanalogy when we've talked about
this on the pod before aboutpublic transportation, right,
where, like once you're throughthe door, like once you've
(02:51):
gotten on the bus or the train,you need to move past the door,
past the entryway, and movefurther into the bus or the
train so that you're notblocking the way for others.
Right, and this episode isgoing to be about why that's so
important and why not movingpast that entry point, even in
body positivity, really doeskind of hinder access for others
(03:12):
.
Sadie Simpson (03:13):
I love a good public transportation analogy
yeah.
Naomi Katz (03:17):
And I just I love that this like continues to work
.
It does Okay.
So obviously, like, let's lay alittle bit of groundwork here.
So first let's talk about bodypositivity, like quote unquote
body positivity.
So the body positivity movementactually began in the 1960s as
(03:40):
an extension of the civil rightsmovement and it was created by
and for people in marginalizedbodies.
So it was based in fatliberation and it very much
included work around dismantlingcapitalism, the patriarchy,
heteronormativity and whitesupremacy.
(04:01):
It didn't just include thoseconversations, it was rooted in
those concepts and it wascreated by and for the people
most impacted by those things.
We are going to link to tworeally great articles about the
history of body positivity andfat liberation in the show notes
(04:23):
.
So if you're interested in likea little bit more of a deep
dive about the details of howthat came about, I highly
recommend checking out the shownotes and checking out those
articles.
They're really, they're reallygreat.
Unfortunately, today'smainstream body positivity is
not any of those things.
(04:43):
Body positivity is not any ofthose things.
So like when we see quoteunquote body positivity in
social media and often even inarticles and you know, when we
see influencers talking about it, when we see the hashtag for it
.
That's not the body positivitythat they're talking about.
That's not the body positivitythat they're talking about.
(05:06):
Today's mainstream bodypositivity is really more of
like a social media andmarketing tool that has their
bodies to show fat rolls or, youknow, stretch marks or things
(05:31):
like that for social media cloutand traction or it's you know
being.
It's the same thing.
It's centering all those samepeople by corporations who are
using it to make money.
Just plain and simple, itabsolutely excludes actual fat
(05:54):
folks.
So, like the mainstream bodypositivity movement these days
kind of tops out at small fat atbest.
Sometimes it doesn't even getto small fat.
We just get like that quoteunquote midsize, and a lot of
times it also includes a lot ofmessaging around like as long as
(06:16):
you're healthy or love yourbody for what it can do, and
stuff like that which we'vetalked about.
You know the ableism inherent inLove your Body for what it Can
Do, and it just generally kindof excludes disabled folks,
people of color, lgbtqia plusfolks and really the most
(06:37):
marginalized of us and, as aresult, kind of just continues
to uphold the same privilegedbeauty standards that it says
it's working against, and so itkind of has become this like
(06:57):
echo chamber for people whoalready hold a lot of privilege,
already hold a lot of privilege, and you know it's a place for
those people to just makethemselves feel good through a
lot of toxic positivity and likespiritual bypassing.
There's a lot of, you know, wedon't really talk about.
You know the actual experiencesof oppression and things like
(07:22):
that.
There's just a lot of just loveyourself and you're enough, and
you know things like that thatare just meant to kind of like
gloss over the actual systemicissues that people sometimes
might be facing.
The other thing is that itfocuses a ton on like self-love
(07:45):
and very individual messagingLike you change your mindset
instead of a discussion or anyactivism around the actual
oppressive systems that dietculture is upholding and so,
like basically mainstream bodypositivity is just has become
(08:06):
just an offshoot of diet cultureat this point and the problem
is that, like you know, this isa really good way to kind of
recognize that diet cultureisn't just a product of, like
the weight loss and fitnessindustries.
Right, it's an offshoot of allthe oppressive systems like
(08:27):
anti-fatness, white supremacy,misogyny, homophobia,
transphobia, capitalism, ableism, healthism, colonialism, like
all the isms.
Diet culture thrives at theintersection of those systems,
and so so, if we're going tofight against it, we have to
really acknowledge thatcomplexity which right.
Sadie Simpson (08:49):
Well, and this like one of the first episodes
that we ever recorded was dietculture is about more than just
diets or something like prettyclose to that title.
And that I mean, obviously,some of our older episodes.
When people are first findingus, they're going to be probably
the most listened to, but Ifeel like that's like one of the
most highly listened to.
And then one there's beenmultiple instances where I've
(09:12):
talked to people I know in reallife that have, like
specifically brought up thatepisode and the idea that diet
culture is more than justdieting and just diets and just
weight loss and that sort ofthing.
Like that's a big eye openerfor a lot of people.
Like it was a big eye openerfor me when this first became a
concept that I was aware of.
So it's a it's a big deal andit's something that is not often
(09:35):
talked about in the mainstream.
Naomi Katz (09:36):
Like I know, in the social media accounts I follow
nowadays, like I hear this a lotmore, but like in the
beginnings I did not know a lotabout this hear this a lot more
but, like, in the beginnings Idid not know a lot about this
Most definitely Like we keeptalking about it because as
people enter this world, it'simportant for them to hear this
and learn it so they can movepast to that entry point.
(09:58):
Like and yeah, and like.
I think it's really importantto define diet culture in this
way in this episode, especiallybecause it really lends it, it
really makes it so that we cansee how the quote unquote body
positivity in the mainstream.
Actually, because it's stillupholding all of the systems
(10:22):
it's not so much body positiveas it is diet culture.
No matter how much they talkabout self-love, right, and you
know again, like just thatconstant focus on the individual
and like.
And when we say the individual,what we're talking about is
body image right, like how wepersonally feel about our bodies
(10:45):
and like that's important, likehealing our body image is
essential and it's powerful.
But it's also just the start.
Again, it's that like entryright.
Like we also have to be like ifwe actually want to dismantle
diet culture, like, if weactually want to exit diet
culture, then we also have toaddress the weight stigma, the
(11:08):
structural anti-fat bias thatexists on a broader scale, and
that means unpacking this stuffon multiple fronts.
So like, yes, we have to unpackit within ourselves, also in
our relationships and also inthe institutions that we
interact with.
And so just telling people tolike love themselves and that
(11:28):
you know they're beautiful atany size and all of that stuff,
like that's great, like I wantpeople to feel good about
themselves, but it doesn't do.
It doesn't really do what weneed it to do to separate it
from diet culture.
I mean all of this to saybasically that the issue with
body positivity is we all havebad body image days, but we
(11:53):
don't all experience systemicexclusion from society.
Sadie Simpson (11:57):
Yes.
Naomi Katz (11:59):
Right, and if we're, if we're topping out at small
fat, cisgender, able-bodied,then we're really contributing
to that systemic exclusion andso like body positivity ends up
just being kind of another formof diet culture, if that's where
(12:21):
we stop, if it's if that'swhere we stop.
So what we wanted to do todaywas talk about like four
systemic issues that bodypositivity in the mainstream
really fails to acknowledge oraddress, so that we can do some
(12:42):
of that, moving past the entrypoint and getting a little like
a broader understanding of whythis is a systemic issue, not a
love yourself issue.
Sadie Simpson (12:53):
I love this.
I'm glad you had this idea forthis topic because I feel like
if I would have had sort of aframework like this, going into
my experience with this as likea smaller, able-bodied white
woman, like it would have been.
Naomi Katz (13:10):
I don't know it's.
Sadie Simpson (13:10):
I like having a framework and I think this is
gonna be a really helpfulepisode for a lot of folks
totally, and we know you love aframework.
I do.
I love a framework.
Naomi Katz (13:19):
I think, honestly, I think everyone like I'd be
lying if I said I didn't alsolove the framework.
So, um, okay, so the first thingand I think we're, and I'd be
lying if I said I didn't alsolove the framework.
So okay, so the first thing andI think we're, and we're
starting with this one because Ithink it's the one that is just
, I feel like, most wrapped upin mainstream body positivity,
and that is a the systemic issuethat we're going to talk about
(13:41):
is the lack of access toclothing, right, so mainstream
body positivity does nothing toincrease access to clothing for
people in larger bodies and,worse, it often results in
companies that claim to be quoteunquote inclusive and sometimes
(14:01):
even get praised for beinginclusive, without actually
including the folks who need itmost.
Sadie Simpson (14:09):
Like the old Navy fiasco of two years ago or
whatever it was.
Naomi Katz (14:13):
Yes, exactly.
So, yeah, we're talking aboutplaces that have never carried
extended sizing deciding thatthey're going to start carrying
extended sizing, but, like, when, when they're it's not selling
out after six months, pullingthe plug on it because, oh,
(14:34):
people aren't responding to itand it's like no, it's just that
you haven't served thispopulation in like the entirety
of your existence.
You need people, need time torealize that you're an option.
It's also, you know, carryingthings online but not in stores,
but the thing that alwaysreally gets me is all of the
(14:56):
places that are like we're soinclusive but only go up to a 3X
.
Yeah, like that's not asinclusive as you think it is
folks.
Sadie Simpson (15:07):
There is a very large percentage of our
population that would be atleast three X or above, like
that's.
That's excluding, I don't knowthe stats.
Like a lot of a big percentageof people.
Naomi Katz (15:18):
Absolutely Like I.
You know I am a small fatperson.
So, again, like just in therealm of fat identity, like you
know, just in the realm ofconsistently being in plus sizes
and there are a lot of storeswhere I wear a 2X, so like if
there's only one size above thatin your store, a lot of people
(15:43):
are being excluded from beingable to shop and yet you claim
inclusivity.
There's also all of the shopsthat are like oh, we're super
inclusive, we go up to a sizewhatever, but all the models on
their pages are in small bodies,wearing straight sizes.
And it's like, okay, like I'mglad you carry these things, but
(16:04):
why would I buy anything that Ican't see?
On a person who is plus size,things fit differently.
Like it's just lot of ways itallows these companies to
capitalize on something thatthey're actually standing in the
(16:30):
way of.
Interestingly, I was doing someresearch for a webinar a while
back and one of the things thatI came across that kind of blew
my mind is that, like, onlyabout 20% of the apparel market
is geared towards plus sizewomen, even though 70% of us
(16:52):
women are at least a size 16.
Oh my God.
Sadie Simpson (16:56):
That is wild.
Like you're missing a hugemarket of people that would be
willing to buy a product if itexisted for them.
Like I feel like that's afinancial somebody's missing out
financially, if nothing else.
Like if they want to becapitalists and they want to
make money.
Naomi Katz (17:16):
Like they're missing out on money here truly like
it's actually even just a badlike, never mind the social
justice aspects of it, like,nevermind the humanitarian
aspects of it, it is a badbusiness practice, yeah, and
then you know, the thing is thatEven when you do find inclusive
and plus size, like accessibleclothing, a lot of times it's
(17:40):
more expensive.
A lot of times it's online only, which, like think about how
many times you've maybe neededto pick up something at the last
minute for an event God forbidyou're traveling and the airline
loses your luggage.
Um, god forbid you're travelingand the airline loses your
(18:01):
luggage.
Like you know any number ofthings well, when stores only
carry your size online, it meansyou can't walk into a store and
buy something at the lastminute.
Um, it's, you know, among otherissues with that, but like
that's, that's kind of a bigdeal, yeah, and and the other
thing is that, like, this isn'tjust a matter of aesthetics,
like it's not just a matter oflike, oh, I can't wear the
(18:22):
clothes that I want.
Clothing impacts things likeemployment, right, like can you
dress appropriately for the jobyou're applying for, and stuff
like that.
And the thing is that and we'regoing to talk about this a
little later fat folks alreadyface discrimination, not to
mention other marginalizedidentities.
(18:42):
These people already facediscrimination in the workplace
and then not being able toaccess clothing adds a layer to
that, makes it even harder forthem to overcome that
discrimination in the workplace.
So this isn't just about like,oh, I don't have enough choices
for what I want to wear.
It's like, oh, I can't get ajob because I can't find work.
(19:07):
Wear in my size.
Sadie Simpson (19:08):
Yeah.
Naomi Katz (19:10):
Yeah, the next systemic thing is lack of access
to public spaces.
So mainstream body positivitydoes nothing to address the ways
that larger bodied folks arestructurally excluded from
public spaces like airplanes,amusement park rides, theaters,
(19:34):
waiting rooms, hair salons,restaurants, restaurants, like
all of that stuff.
Um, I actually again I found aninteresting statistic that in
the past decade airline seatshave narrowed from 18.5 inches
to 17 inches what right is thatto try to cram more seats in?
(19:57):
The airplane.
Sadie Simpson (19:58):
For sure, it's kind of a dumb question, but I'm
like okay absolutely that'swhat it is.
Naomi Katz (20:06):
Um, airline bathrooms have gone from 33 to
34 inches wide to just 26 incheswide.
It's a really big change, rightand like.
The thing is like, yeah, that'ssuper uncomfortable.
It also often requires peopleto purchase an expensive second
(20:27):
seat and it, because everybody'sso cramped together, tends to
result in, like ridicule andanger from other passengers, and
there's even been instances oflike folks in larger bodies
actually being removed from aplane, which you know can be
(20:49):
inconvenient, but it can alsohave dire consequences.
There was a situation in 2012where a woman literally died
because she was, I believe thesituation was that she was on
her way for medical treatmentbut like was removed from the
plane, having to do with beingin a larger body, but like it
was a whole thing.
Like this, again, we're not justtalking about minor
(21:10):
inconvenience or discomfort here.
We're talking about like big,like these things.
These are a big deal, um andyou know that's just the the
start of it, obviously like thelack of chairs in waiting rooms
for people, um, not being ableto go to restaurants, not being
(21:32):
able to go to theaters, notbeing able to go to restaurants,
not being able to go totheaters, not being able to go
to hair salons, like I don'tknow why hair salons always have
chairs with arms, for one thing, and they're so small.
They are small.
I actually just this week ormaybe last week.
So Reagan Chastain has thatweight and healthcare newsletter
(21:56):
on Substack, which is amazing,highly recommend.
I know we've talked about it onthe pod before, it's the
greatest.
And she actually just sent outan email last week that had
templates for emails to medicalproviders, talking about, you
know, chairs and waiting rooms,blood pressure cuffs, like
(22:19):
things like that.
We'll link to that newsletterin the show notes also, because
part of this is learning toadvocate for these things when
we see that there's a lack.
Okay, the third issue is lack ofaccess to compassionate and
(22:41):
competent healthcare.
Speaking of, you know,mainstream body positivity does
nothing to address the ways thatthe healthcare system
stigmatizes and denies ethical,evidence-based care to folks in
larger bodies, which is aliteral life and death problem
(23:01):
and in a lot of ways, again,mainstream body positivity kind
of makes it worse by sayingthings like as long as you're
healthy and love your body forwhat it can do, without any
acknowledgement of the obstaclesto health, the ableism of that.
You know, things like that.
(23:24):
I think it's really important,as we start talking about this
topic, to note that historically, the rhetoric around fatness
and health didn't come aboutuntil well after the bias
against fatness was establishedthrough racial rhetoric.
You know, the scope of thisepisode is not about the
(23:45):
difference between weight andhealth, but it is really
important to recognize that as asociety, we decided fat was bad
and then we sought to provethat medically, not the other
way around, right and so again,the as long as you're healthy
rhetoric doesn't really holdwater in terms of like how we
(24:10):
stigmatize fatness and, ofcourse, the result of that
stigma is weight-centric medicalcare, which means that folks in
larger bodies are often unableto access evidence-based care.
They're often stigmatizedbecause of their body size.
Actually have Aubrey Gordon hastalked about being prescribed
(24:43):
statins just because the doctorassumed, since she was fat, she
was going to need them.
Like a sensor for cholesterol,even though her cholesterol was
fine, and that like it's.
Like it's not the worst thingsomebody could be prescribed,
but it does have side effects.
Like it's not good.
Sadie Simpson (25:02):
It is not necessary Like if you don't have
a condition that needs that.
Naomi Katz (25:06):
Yeah, and also somebody who doesn't have high
cholesterol.
Like taking statins.
It is bad for your health.
Like you should not be takingstatins if you don't have high
cholesterol.
Like you should not be takingstatins if you don't have high
cholesterol.
And then the flip side of thatis that fat folks are often
denied treatment or diagnosisfor ailments that they do have.
(25:34):
So when Regan Chastain was onthe pod, she talked about having
strep throat and going to thedoctor and being told to lose
weight and like having to fightwith this doctor just to get
antibiotics for her strep throat, which under no circumstances
was going to be solved by her byweight loss.
And of course, like that's arelatively mild situation.
There have been a lot of othersituations where people have
been diagnosed so late that it'sactually resulted in death,
(25:57):
mm-hmm and so like it'sliterally a life and death issue
.
And you know, research hasshown that primary care
providers are generally prone tospend less time with patients
in larger bodies.
They're more likely to ratethose encounters as a waste of
time.
They're more likely to ratethose encounters as a waste of
(26:20):
time.
And even if the treatment isn'tthat bad like even if you're
not getting misdiagnosed orwhatever, every doctor's visit
is still full of comments aboutweight, worst case scenarios
(26:40):
about their health, pressure tochange body size and so much of
that is rooted in the use of theracist BMI.
I have told this story before, Ithink, when I talked about the
to this medical facility thatall over the place had these
(27:03):
flyers up that were like westand against racism.
But then I went in and got thistotally inappropriate medical
recommendation based solely onmy BMI, and it was and I really
wanted to be like don't reallyunderstand what you're doing
here, Do you?
Sadie Simpson (27:22):
And they don't.
That's the thing.
Naomi Katz (27:23):
They don't, and that's the problem.
But yeah, you know, medicalweight bias means that people
are getting inferior medicaltreatment, and it also causes
people to delay seeing a doctorbecause of the stigma and the
poor treatment they receive, andboth of those things mean that
(27:44):
folks in larger bodiesexperience worse medical
outcomes than folks in smallerbodies, and that's so important
to acknowledge because itexplains like there is a
statistical correlation betweenfatness and negative health
outcomes not causation, thoughand this poor medical care and
this delaying of medical careexplains a big part of why that
(28:07):
correlation might exist, and weare never controlling for that
when we're when we're talkingabout that correlation.
Sadie Simpson (28:14):
Right.
Naomi Katz (28:15):
And of course, there's like an
intersectionality conversationto have there too, because
there's also evidence that women, gender non-conforming folks,
people of color, are also oftendismissed or stigmatized in
medical settings, and so all ofthese things can just compound
that experience of weight stigma.
And you know, telling peoplethat their body is fine as long
(28:39):
as they're healthy ignores allof this stuff and, if anything,
almost worsens it, because it'slike, again, you can't love your
body out of weight stigma.
And putting the condition ofyou're only allowed to love your
body if you're healthy is makesthat inaccessible for huge
(29:03):
portions of the population.
Okay, and then the last thingis that there's systemic
discrimination against folks inlarger bodies, in hiring,
housing, schooling and the legalsystem yep, yep, yep, yep.
And mainstream body positivityignores all of those things.
(29:28):
Yes, and so this is a an AubreyGordon quote.
In 48 of the 50 us States, it isperfectly legal to deny someone
housing employment, a table ata restaurant or a room in a
hotel just because they're fat.
Wow, right.
Which is mind blowing, like,notably, very recently, new York
(29:49):
city passed a law banningsize-based discrimination, which
is great.
Massachusetts, if anybody, ifany of our listeners are in
Massachusetts, I believe thereis a similar bill in the in
state legislature right now, socontact your reps about that,
(30:10):
but we have got a long way to go, obviously, um, but but yeah, I
mean there are.
There are very distinct um andstudied instances of
discrimination in all of thesefields.
So, like in hiring and wages,there was an informal study in
(30:31):
2017 of over 500 hiring managersthat tested attitudes toward
potential employees based onsize by showing photos.
21% of the people testeddescribed the fattest women in
the photos as lazy andunprofessional, more than any of
the other photos they wereshown.
(30:51):
Only 18% said she hadleadership potential and only
15% said they would evenconsider hiring her oh my gosh
Based purely on a photo.
Sadie Simpson (31:05):
That's messed up.
Naomi Katz (31:07):
In a 2015 study, people were shown digital
resumes with photos of non-fatpeople and then digitally
altered photos of those samepeople as fat, and in that study
, fat job candidates were deemedsignificantly less competent
than non-fat candidates.
Job candidates were deemedsignificantly less competent
(31:29):
than non-fat candidates Againreminder that in this study,
they were literally talkingabout the same people.
It's just that in one set, thephoto had been digitally altered
to make them look fat and,interestingly, in this one, even
fat participants showed a biasagainst fat candidates, which
really clearly shows how weinternalize these stigmas.
(31:50):
Yet another reason why justtelling people to love their
bodies is not actually going tohelp us unpack these systemic
issues.
In a 2010 study in the US, theyshowed that heavy women earned
(32:14):
$9,000 less than average weightcounterparts.
Very heavy women earned $19,000less, oh my God.
Sadie Simpson (32:25):
And then on the flip side very thin women earned
$22,000 more than averageweight counterparts.
Naomi Katz (32:28):
That is such crap, Yep.
And again like think about thatin the context of and fat folks
need to pay more for theirclothes and things like that,
Right.
Sadie Simpson (32:38):
Double airplane seats like double airplane seats
extra stuff Exactly Yep, um.
Naomi Katz (32:45):
And then, lastly, in Englandland, women who are just
one stone, which is 14 poundsover their bmi mandated weight,
earn 1500 pounds less than athinner woman, 14 pounds over
your quote, unquote bmi, myended weight, mandated weight,
is like nothing.
No, it's like one dress size.
Sadie Simpson (33:09):
Yes.
Naomi Katz (33:11):
Yeah, oh my gosh.
And again, bmi hugelyproblematic, racist, all the
things.
Discrimination in school andeducation also a thing.
So, according to a 2018 metaanalysis, fat people are less
likely to go to college,regardless of their competence.
Fat women are less likely tohave their college tuition paid
(33:32):
for by their parents, which, inthe time of student loan debt,
is like a really big deal.
Fat students are less likely toget letters of recommendation
from their teachers likely toget letters of recommendation
from their teachers, and fatstudents are shown to receive
significantly lower grades inschool, despite showing no
statistically significantdifferences in intelligence or
(33:54):
test scores.
Oh my gosh.
And by test scores obviouslythey're talking about like
standardized test scores, notlike their tests in school,
because that would be theirgrades, yeah, like their weekly
spelling test or whatever Right.
Yeah, all of these thingsimportant again, how that
translates to hiring, how thattranslates to income, like all
(34:18):
of that stuff, and there's a lot.
I'm sure you know there'sreasons for this, but the
anti-fat bias is a big part ofit and all.
And we have to keep in mindintersectionality in all of
these things too.
Right, because we also seediscrimination in hiring and
schooling with, you know, peopleof color, with, you know,
gender non-conforming folks,with LGBTQIA plus individuals,
(34:43):
like all of that stuff, and soso, like, it's important to
remember that this stuffcompounds, um, within the
judicial system, like which Ifeel like was one that kind of I
I don't know like maybe itshouldn't have surprised.
It shouldn't have surprised me,especially because of what we
know about the roots of dietculture in white supremacy and
(35:06):
stuff like that and the way thatshows up in the judicial system
, but still, this stuff reallysurprised me.
Um, and so there's a 2013 studyshowed that men were more
likely to find a fat womanguilty of the same crime.
So, interestingly, women judgedboth defendants the same
(35:27):
whether they were, whether thefemale was thin or fat, and
there was no difference byanybody based on weight.
If the defendants were maleinstead of female.
Okay, stat victims of sexualassault are also often thought
to be either lying or that theyshould be quote, flattered.
(35:47):
Oh no, yep, this, notably.
This was a sentiment that waslike, explicitly expressed by a
quebec judge in 2017 oh my gosh.
And, of course, all the time incomment sections online, which
is like oh, whatever it'scomment sections online except
those are the people who wouldmake up a jury yep, so that
(36:11):
matters.
And then in like a very extremecase, fatness was even used as
a defense by the nypd againstthe murder of eric garner in
2014.
So er Eric Garner, a Black man,was killed on video when an
NYPD officer choked him to death, and in the 2019 administrative
(36:35):
hearings to determine if theofficer would keep his job, the
defense team argued that theofficer should not be held
accountable because Garner wasfat.
They said said quote he diedfrom being morbidly obese he was
a ticking time bomb thatresisted arrest.
If he was put in a bear hug, itwould have been the same outcome
(36:56):
oh my god, that is the worsthorrible, absolutely horrible.
Um, and it's like, it'sliterally, it's saying the the
quiet part out loud.
There too, like it's, it's,there's not.
They're not even pretendingthat it's anything other than
anti-fatness.
(37:16):
There and again, it's such a aclear illustration of how the
anti-fatness intersects withother marginalization too, like
white supremacy.
So, yeah, like.
Ultimately, these are really bigsystemic issues that aren't
going to be solved by us lovingour bodies, no matter what
(37:39):
mainstream body positivity tellsus right and like and again.
Ultimately, that's what bodypositivity misses.
We can't body image our way outof discrimination or social
exclusion.
And listen, if you are new tothe idea of body positivity and
listening to this, thisinformation is not meant to
(38:00):
shame you.
It's not meant to make you feellike you're doing anything
wrong.
Like we said in the beginning,we all need entry points.
We love an entry point.
So welcome, right, welcome tobody positivity.
Now here's your invitation tomove further into the movement,
into the practice, into theunderstanding around these
(38:22):
issues.
This is an invitation to learnmore about body liberation,
about fat positivity, about fatliberation, and also to notice
when body positivity is beingused as a way to sell us things
that very much do not move thedial on any of these bigger
issues and, for that matter,sometimes set that dial back If
(38:46):
you are interested in gettingsome support for deepening your
own anti-diet practice andincluding a systemic lens in
your work, because this stuff ishard.
It is like none of us havelearned this stuff on our own.
In fact, if you subscribe tothe Satisfaction Space, you will
hear in our bonus episode nextweek how each of us came into
(39:07):
this work and found our way pastthe entry point.
But I do want to remind youthat I have spots open for
one-on-one intuitive eating andanti-diet coaching.
I am a big believer in havingconversations around these
topics and breaking down thesystemic parts of diet culture
as a part of our work together,and I support a lot of my
(39:29):
clients as they learn toadvocate for themselves and for
others in situations wherethey're experiencing
marginalization.
So you can get all of theinformation about coaching and
submit your application athappyshapesco slash coaching and
we will put that link in theshow note as well.
Sadie Simpson (39:49):
Awesome.
Okay, Naomi, what's satisfyingfor you right now?
Naomi Katz (39:53):
So currently what is satisfying for me is that Ben
is starting to get into some ofmy favorite little like pop
culture, like obsessions, sothat we can share them together.
He just started reading a courtof thorns and roses oh snap and
we have watched, um, the firstseveral episodes of supernatural
(40:14):
together.
Okay, and I am like ecstaticabout it.
It's like it's just it's fun,like I'm super excited to like
to to talk to him about it.
Like Every time he reads, I'mlike what did you read?
Today I'm also rereading thebook so that I can have it fresh
(40:35):
to talk to him about it, but italso just makes me feel so
loved.
It's an awesome thing that he'sdoing to share these things
with me, and so, yeah, that's my, that's my thing for today.
What is satisfying you rightnow?
Sadie Simpson (40:53):
So my satisfying thing comes from something that
is not satisfying.
I guess this is like turninglemons into lemonade and
whatever you know, makinglemonade out of lemons and
whatever you know making makinglemonade out of lemons.
Um, at where I teach wateraerobics at the ymca, they are
working on the like hvac systemand including included in that
(41:17):
is the dehumidification systemand if you've ever been inside
of an indoor pool, it is like sohot and so humid and and this
is like when the systems areworking correctly, and so for
the last couple of weeks it'slike the dehumidification like
has not worked.
It is so freaking hot in thepool and so typically I teach
(41:37):
from the pool deck.
But since it's been so hot I'vebeen getting in the water to
teach my water aerobics classesand it's so fun like I it has
been so long since likeoccasionally I'll try to go take
other people's like wateraerobics classes and it's so fun
Like it has been so long sincelike occasionally I'll try to go
take other people's like wateraerobics classes and things, but
I don't really get a chance todo it very often and to actually
get in the water is verysatisfying and enjoyable to do
(41:59):
exercise in the water Like Itotally forget how pleasant it
is to do that.
So if you're listening and youneed a fun and satisfying form
of exercise.
I highly recommend wateraerobics inside the water, not
on the pool deck.
It's, it's very fabulous.
Naomi Katz (42:15):
That sounds awesome.
That is a great example ofmaking lemonade out of lemons.
When you first started thatstory I was like, oh my God,
that sounds horrible.
But then you were like I got inthe water and I was like, ooh,
I was that meme of that girlwho's like Ooh, and I was like
oh I know that meme, and that'sexactly what it is.
Amazing.
Sadie Simpson (42:39):
Awesome.
Well, if you enjoyed thisepisode, be sure to let us know
about it.
Leave us a positive rating andreview on Apple podcasts or
Spotify, and you can also comefind us on Instagram.
We are at satisfaction factorpod and we love hearing from
folks over there.
Naomi Katz (42:56):
That's it for us this week.
We'll catch you next time.
Welcome to Satisfaction Factor, the podcast
where we explore how ditchingdiet culture makes our whole
lives more satisfying.
Welcome back to SatisfactionFactor.
I'm Naomi Katz, an intuitiveeating and body image coach.
(00:24):
I'm Sadie Simpson, a groupfitness instructor and personal
trainer.
So this week we've got anothergreat topic that we think you're
really going to enjoy.
But before we dive in, just aquick reminder about the
satisfaction space, our onlinepodcast community.
We know it can be hard to findanti-diet community that's
aligned with your values,especially if you're the first
in your family or friend groupto make moves towards ditching
(00:46):
diet culture, and that's why wecreated the Satisfaction Space.
If you've ever found yourselflistening to the podcast and
wanting to add something to theconversation or ask a question,
this space was created for you.
The Satisfaction Space is anonline membership community that
includes a private community offolks who share similar values
and interests that you can talkto and connect with outside of
(01:08):
Facebook.
Bonus content during thepodcast, off weeks, monthly live
virtual hangouts with us and acommunity feed where you can
post your comments or questionsand get feedback from us, as
well as your fellow communitymembers.
Membership to the SatisfactionSpace is just $10 a month and
can be canceled at any time andyou can enroll at
(01:29):
thesatisfactionspacemnco andthat link always lives in our
show notes.
Sadie Simpson (01:36):
If you want to support the show but don't want
to commit to a monthlymembership.
We also have merch.
We recently added four newdesigns inspired by our Joyful
Movement Athlete conversation afew episodes ago, so we've got a
handful of designs on TeePublicthat can be printed as stickers
, t-shirts, sweatshirts, mugs,tote bags and whatever else you
like.
T-shirts and sweatshirts comein sizes up to 5X and you can
(01:57):
check that out at the link inour show notes.
Naomi Katz (02:00):
So we've talked before on the pod about how body
positivity is a great entrypoint into more expansive ideas
about body respect, bodyliberation, fat positivity and
fat liberation, and we all needentry points, right, right, so
like no shade to entry pointshere.
But today we're going to talkabout some specific reasons why
(02:24):
body positivity is not reallythe whole picture and not really
the answer that we often thinkit's going to be when we first
start down this road.
Yeah, so I have used thisanalogy when we've talked about
this on the pod before aboutpublic transportation, right,
where, like once you're throughthe door, like once you've
(02:51):
gotten on the bus or the train,you need to move past the door,
past the entryway, and movefurther into the bus or the
train so that you're notblocking the way for others.
Right, and this episode isgoing to be about why that's so
important and why not movingpast that entry point, even in
body positivity, really doeskind of hinder access for others
(03:12):
.
Sadie Simpson (03:13):
I love a good public transportation analogy
yeah.
Naomi Katz (03:17):
And I just I love that this like continues to work
.
It does Okay.
So obviously, like, let's lay alittle bit of groundwork here.
So first let's talk about bodypositivity, like quote unquote
body positivity.
So the body positivity movementactually began in the 1960s as
(03:40):
an extension of the civil rightsmovement and it was created by
and for people in marginalizedbodies.
So it was based in fatliberation and it very much
included work around dismantlingcapitalism, the patriarchy,
heteronormativity and whitesupremacy.
(04:01):
It didn't just include thoseconversations, it was rooted in
those concepts and it wascreated by and for the people
most impacted by those things.
We are going to link to tworeally great articles about the
history of body positivity andfat liberation in the show notes
(04:23):
.
So if you're interested in likea little bit more of a deep
dive about the details of howthat came about, I highly
recommend checking out the shownotes and checking out those
articles.
They're really, they're reallygreat.
Unfortunately, today'smainstream body positivity is
not any of those things.
(04:43):
Body positivity is not any ofthose things.
So like when we see quoteunquote body positivity in
social media and often even inarticles and you know, when we
see influencers talking about it, when we see the hashtag for it
.
That's not the body positivitythat they're talking about.
That's not the body positivitythat they're talking about.
(05:06):
Today's mainstream bodypositivity is really more of
like a social media andmarketing tool that has their
bodies to show fat rolls or, youknow, stretch marks or things
(05:31):
like that for social media cloutand traction or it's you know
being.
It's the same thing.
It's centering all those samepeople by corporations who are
using it to make money.
Just plain and simple, itabsolutely excludes actual fat
(05:54):
folks.
So, like the mainstream bodypositivity movement these days
kind of tops out at small fat atbest.
Sometimes it doesn't even getto small fat.
We just get like that quoteunquote midsize, and a lot of
times it also includes a lot ofmessaging around like as long as
(06:16):
you're healthy or love yourbody for what it can do, and
stuff like that which we'vetalked about.
You know the ableism inherent inLove your Body for what it Can
Do, and it just generally kindof excludes disabled folks,
people of color, lgbtqia plusfolks and really the most
(06:37):
marginalized of us and, as aresult, kind of just continues
to uphold the same privilegedbeauty standards that it says
it's working against, and so itkind of has become this like
(06:57):
echo chamber for people whoalready hold a lot of privilege,
already hold a lot of privilege, and you know it's a place for
those people to just makethemselves feel good through a
lot of toxic positivity and likespiritual bypassing.
There's a lot of, you know, wedon't really talk about.
You know the actual experiencesof oppression and things like
(07:22):
that.
There's just a lot of just loveyourself and you're enough, and
you know things like that thatare just meant to kind of like
gloss over the actual systemicissues that people sometimes
might be facing.
The other thing is that itfocuses a ton on like self-love
(07:45):
and very individual messagingLike you change your mindset
instead of a discussion or anyactivism around the actual
oppressive systems that dietculture is upholding and so,
like basically mainstream bodypositivity is just has become
(08:06):
just an offshoot of diet cultureat this point and the problem
is that, like you know, this isa really good way to kind of
recognize that diet cultureisn't just a product of, like
the weight loss and fitnessindustries.
Right, it's an offshoot of allthe oppressive systems like
(08:27):
anti-fatness, white supremacy,misogyny, homophobia,
transphobia, capitalism, ableism, healthism, colonialism, like
all the isms.
Diet culture thrives at theintersection of those systems,
and so so, if we're going tofight against it, we have to
really acknowledge thatcomplexity which right.
Sadie Simpson (08:49):
Well, and this like one of the first episodes
that we ever recorded was dietculture is about more than just
diets or something like prettyclose to that title.
And that I mean, obviously,some of our older episodes.
When people are first findingus, they're going to be probably
the most listened to, but Ifeel like that's like one of the
most highly listened to.
And then one there's beenmultiple instances where I've
(09:12):
talked to people I know in reallife that have, like
specifically brought up thatepisode and the idea that diet
culture is more than justdieting and just diets and just
weight loss and that sort ofthing.
Like that's a big eye openerfor a lot of people.
Like it was a big eye openerfor me when this first became a
concept that I was aware of.
So it's a it's a big deal andit's something that is not often
(09:35):
talked about in the mainstream.
Naomi Katz (09:36):
Like I know, in the social media accounts I follow
nowadays, like I hear this a lotmore, but like in the
beginnings I did not know a lotabout this hear this a lot more
but, like, in the beginnings Idid not know a lot about this
Most definitely Like we keeptalking about it because as
people enter this world, it'simportant for them to hear this
and learn it so they can movepast to that entry point.
(09:58):
Like and yeah, and like.
I think it's really importantto define diet culture in this
way in this episode, especiallybecause it really lends it, it
really makes it so that we cansee how the quote unquote body
positivity in the mainstream.
Actually, because it's stillupholding all of the systems
(10:22):
it's not so much body positiveas it is diet culture.
No matter how much they talkabout self-love, right, and you
know again, like just thatconstant focus on the individual
and like.
And when we say the individual,what we're talking about is
body image right, like how wepersonally feel about our bodies
(10:45):
and like that's important, likehealing our body image is
essential and it's powerful.
But it's also just the start.
Again, it's that like entryright.
Like we also have to be like ifwe actually want to dismantle
diet culture, like, if weactually want to exit diet
culture, then we also have toaddress the weight stigma, the
(11:08):
structural anti-fat bias thatexists on a broader scale, and
that means unpacking this stuffon multiple fronts.
So like, yes, we have to unpackit within ourselves, also in
our relationships and also inthe institutions that we
interact with.
And so just telling people tolike love themselves and that
(11:28):
you know they're beautiful atany size and all of that stuff,
like that's great, like I wantpeople to feel good about
themselves, but it doesn't do.
It doesn't really do what weneed it to do to separate it
from diet culture.
I mean all of this to saybasically that the issue with
body positivity is we all havebad body image days, but we
(11:53):
don't all experience systemicexclusion from society.
Sadie Simpson (11:57):
Yes.
Naomi Katz (11:59):
Right, and if we're, if we're topping out at small
fat, cisgender, able-bodied,then we're really contributing
to that systemic exclusion andso like body positivity ends up
just being kind of another formof diet culture, if that's where
(12:21):
we stop, if it's if that'swhere we stop.
So what we wanted to do todaywas talk about like four
systemic issues that bodypositivity in the mainstream
really fails to acknowledge oraddress, so that we can do some
(12:42):
of that, moving past the entrypoint and getting a little like
a broader understanding of whythis is a systemic issue, not a
love yourself issue.
Sadie Simpson (12:53):
I love this.
I'm glad you had this idea forthis topic because I feel like
if I would have had sort of aframework like this, going into
my experience with this as likea smaller, able-bodied white
woman, like it would have been.
Naomi Katz (13:10):
I don't know it's.
Sadie Simpson (13:10):
I like having a framework and I think this is
gonna be a really helpfulepisode for a lot of folks
totally, and we know you love aframework.
I do.
I love a framework.
Naomi Katz (13:19):
I think, honestly, I think everyone like I'd be
lying if I said I didn't alsolove the framework.
So, um, okay, so the first thingand I think we're, and I'd be
lying if I said I didn't alsolove the framework.
So okay, so the first thing andI think we're, and we're
starting with this one because Ithink it's the one that is just
, I feel like, most wrapped upin mainstream body positivity,
and that is a the systemic issuethat we're going to talk about
(13:41):
is the lack of access toclothing, right, so mainstream
body positivity does nothing toincrease access to clothing for
people in larger bodies and,worse, it often results in
companies that claim to be quoteunquote inclusive and sometimes
(14:01):
even get praised for beinginclusive, without actually
including the folks who need itmost.
Sadie Simpson (14:09):
Like the old Navy fiasco of two years ago or
whatever it was.
Naomi Katz (14:13):
Yes, exactly.
So, yeah, we're talking aboutplaces that have never carried
extended sizing deciding thatthey're going to start carrying
extended sizing, but, like, when, when they're it's not selling
out after six months, pullingthe plug on it because, oh,
(14:34):
people aren't responding to itand it's like no, it's just that
you haven't served thispopulation in like the entirety
of your existence.
You need people, need time torealize that you're an option.
It's also, you know, carryingthings online but not in stores,
but the thing that alwaysreally gets me is all of the
(14:56):
places that are like we're soinclusive but only go up to a 3X
.
Yeah, like that's not asinclusive as you think it is
folks.
Sadie Simpson (15:07):
There is a very large percentage of our
population that would be atleast three X or above, like
that's.
That's excluding, I don't knowthe stats.
Like a lot of a big percentageof people.
Naomi Katz (15:18):
Absolutely Like I.
You know I am a small fatperson.
So, again, like just in therealm of fat identity, like you
know, just in the realm ofconsistently being in plus sizes
and there are a lot of storeswhere I wear a 2X, so like if
there's only one size above thatin your store, a lot of people
(15:43):
are being excluded from beingable to shop and yet you claim
inclusivity.
There's also all of the shopsthat are like oh, we're super
inclusive, we go up to a sizewhatever, but all the models on
their pages are in small bodies,wearing straight sizes.
And it's like, okay, like I'mglad you carry these things, but
(16:04):
why would I buy anything that Ican't see?
On a person who is plus size,things fit differently.
Like it's just lot of ways itallows these companies to
capitalize on something thatthey're actually standing in the
(16:30):
way of.
Interestingly, I was doing someresearch for a webinar a while
back and one of the things thatI came across that kind of blew
my mind is that, like, onlyabout 20% of the apparel market
is geared towards plus sizewomen, even though 70% of us
(16:52):
women are at least a size 16.
Oh my God.
Sadie Simpson (16:56):
That is wild.
Like you're missing a hugemarket of people that would be
willing to buy a product if itexisted for them.
Like I feel like that's afinancial somebody's missing out
financially, if nothing else.
Like if they want to becapitalists and they want to
make money.
Naomi Katz (17:16):
Like they're missing out on money here truly like
it's actually even just a badlike, never mind the social
justice aspects of it, like,nevermind the humanitarian
aspects of it, it is a badbusiness practice, yeah, and
then you know, the thing is thatEven when you do find inclusive
and plus size, like accessibleclothing, a lot of times it's
(17:40):
more expensive.
A lot of times it's online only, which, like think about how
many times you've maybe neededto pick up something at the last
minute for an event God forbidyou're traveling and the airline
loses your luggage.
Um, god forbid you're travelingand the airline loses your
(18:01):
luggage.
Like you know any number ofthings well, when stores only
carry your size online, it meansyou can't walk into a store and
buy something at the lastminute.
Um, it's, you know, among otherissues with that, but like
that's, that's kind of a bigdeal, yeah, and and the other
thing is that, like, this isn'tjust a matter of aesthetics,
like it's not just a matter oflike, oh, I can't wear the
(18:22):
clothes that I want.
Clothing impacts things likeemployment, right, like can you
dress appropriately for the jobyou're applying for, and stuff
like that.
And the thing is that and we'regoing to talk about this a
little later fat folks alreadyface discrimination, not to
mention other marginalizedidentities.
(18:42):
These people already facediscrimination in the workplace
and then not being able toaccess clothing adds a layer to
that, makes it even harder forthem to overcome that
discrimination in the workplace.
So this isn't just about like,oh, I don't have enough choices
for what I want to wear.
It's like, oh, I can't get ajob because I can't find work.
(19:07):
Wear in my size.
Sadie Simpson (19:08):
Yeah.
Naomi Katz (19:10):
Yeah, the next systemic thing is lack of access
to public spaces.
So mainstream body positivitydoes nothing to address the ways
that larger bodied folks arestructurally excluded from
public spaces like airplanes,amusement park rides, theaters,
(19:34):
waiting rooms, hair salons,restaurants, restaurants, like
all of that stuff.
Um, I actually again I found aninteresting statistic that in
the past decade airline seatshave narrowed from 18.5 inches
to 17 inches what right is thatto try to cram more seats in?
(19:57):
The airplane.
Sadie Simpson (19:58):
For sure, it's kind of a dumb question, but I'm
like okay absolutely that'swhat it is.
Naomi Katz (20:06):
Um, airline bathrooms have gone from 33 to
34 inches wide to just 26 incheswide.
It's a really big change, rightand like.
The thing is like, yeah, that'ssuper uncomfortable.
It also often requires peopleto purchase an expensive second
(20:27):
seat and it, because everybody'sso cramped together, tends to
result in, like ridicule andanger from other passengers, and
there's even been instances oflike folks in larger bodies
actually being removed from aplane, which you know can be
(20:49):
inconvenient, but it can alsohave dire consequences.
There was a situation in 2012where a woman literally died
because she was, I believe thesituation was that she was on
her way for medical treatmentbut like was removed from the
plane, having to do with beingin a larger body, but like it
was a whole thing.
Like this, again, we're not justtalking about minor
(21:10):
inconvenience or discomfort here.
We're talking about like big,like these things.
These are a big deal, um andyou know that's just the the
start of it, obviously like thelack of chairs in waiting rooms
for people, um, not being ableto go to restaurants, not being
(21:32):
able to go to theaters, notbeing able to go to restaurants,
not being able to go totheaters, not being able to go
to hair salons, like I don'tknow why hair salons always have
chairs with arms, for one thing, and they're so small.
They are small.
I actually just this week ormaybe last week.
So Reagan Chastain has thatweight and healthcare newsletter
(21:56):
on Substack, which is amazing,highly recommend.
I know we've talked about it onthe pod before, it's the
greatest.
And she actually just sent outan email last week that had
templates for emails to medicalproviders, talking about, you
know, chairs and waiting rooms,blood pressure cuffs, like
(22:19):
things like that.
We'll link to that newsletterin the show notes also, because
part of this is learning toadvocate for these things when
we see that there's a lack.
Okay, the third issue is lack ofaccess to compassionate and
(22:41):
competent healthcare.
Speaking of, you know,mainstream body positivity does
nothing to address the ways thatthe healthcare system
stigmatizes and denies ethical,evidence-based care to folks in
larger bodies, which is aliteral life and death problem
(23:01):
and in a lot of ways, again,mainstream body positivity kind
of makes it worse by sayingthings like as long as you're
healthy and love your body forwhat it can do, without any
acknowledgement of the obstaclesto health, the ableism of that.
You know, things like that.
(23:24):
I think it's really important,as we start talking about this
topic, to note that historically, the rhetoric around fatness
and health didn't come aboutuntil well after the bias
against fatness was establishedthrough racial rhetoric.
You know, the scope of thisepisode is not about the
(23:45):
difference between weight andhealth, but it is really
important to recognize that as asociety, we decided fat was bad
and then we sought to provethat medically, not the other
way around, right and so again,the as long as you're healthy
rhetoric doesn't really holdwater in terms of like how we
(24:10):
stigmatize fatness and, ofcourse, the result of that
stigma is weight-centric medicalcare, which means that folks in
larger bodies are often unableto access evidence-based care.
They're often stigmatizedbecause of their body size.
Actually have Aubrey Gordon hastalked about being prescribed
(24:43):
statins just because the doctorassumed, since she was fat, she
was going to need them.
Like a sensor for cholesterol,even though her cholesterol was
fine, and that like it's.
Like it's not the worst thingsomebody could be prescribed,
but it does have side effects.
Like it's not good.
Sadie Simpson (25:02):
It is not necessary Like if you don't have
a condition that needs that.
Naomi Katz (25:06):
Yeah, and also somebody who doesn't have high
cholesterol.
Like taking statins.
It is bad for your health.
Like you should not be takingstatins if you don't have high
cholesterol.
Like you should not be takingstatins if you don't have high
cholesterol.
And then the flip side of thatis that fat folks are often
denied treatment or diagnosisfor ailments that they do have.
(25:34):
So when Regan Chastain was onthe pod, she talked about having
strep throat and going to thedoctor and being told to lose
weight and like having to fightwith this doctor just to get
antibiotics for her strep throat, which under no circumstances
was going to be solved by her byweight loss.
And of course, like that's arelatively mild situation.
There have been a lot of othersituations where people have
been diagnosed so late that it'sactually resulted in death,
(25:57):
mm-hmm and so like it'sliterally a life and death issue
.
And you know, research hasshown that primary care
providers are generally prone tospend less time with patients
in larger bodies.
They're more likely to ratethose encounters as a waste of
time.
They're more likely to ratethose encounters as a waste of
(26:20):
time.
And even if the treatment isn'tthat bad like even if you're
not getting misdiagnosed orwhatever, every doctor's visit
is still full of comments aboutweight, worst case scenarios
(26:40):
about their health, pressure tochange body size and so much of
that is rooted in the use of theracist BMI.
I have told this story before, Ithink, when I talked about the
to this medical facility thatall over the place had these
(27:03):
flyers up that were like westand against racism.
But then I went in and got thistotally inappropriate medical
recommendation based solely onmy BMI, and it was and I really
wanted to be like don't reallyunderstand what you're doing
here, Do you?
Sadie Simpson (27:22):
And they don't.
That's the thing.
Naomi Katz (27:23):
They don't, and that's the problem.
But yeah, you know, medicalweight bias means that people
are getting inferior medicaltreatment, and it also causes
people to delay seeing a doctorbecause of the stigma and the
poor treatment they receive, andboth of those things mean that
(27:44):
folks in larger bodiesexperience worse medical
outcomes than folks in smallerbodies, and that's so important
to acknowledge because itexplains like there is a
statistical correlation betweenfatness and negative health
outcomes not causation, thoughand this poor medical care and
this delaying of medical careexplains a big part of why that
(28:07):
correlation might exist, and weare never controlling for that
when we're when we're talkingabout that correlation.
Sadie Simpson (28:14):
Right.
Naomi Katz (28:15):
And of course, there's like an
intersectionality conversationto have there too, because
there's also evidence that women, gender non-conforming folks,
people of color, are also oftendismissed or stigmatized in
medical settings, and so all ofthese things can just compound
that experience of weight stigma.
And you know, telling peoplethat their body is fine as long
(28:39):
as they're healthy ignores allof this stuff and, if anything,
almost worsens it, because it'slike, again, you can't love your
body out of weight stigma.
And putting the condition ofyou're only allowed to love your
body if you're healthy is makesthat inaccessible for huge
(29:03):
portions of the population.
Okay, and then the last thingis that there's systemic
discrimination against folks inlarger bodies, in hiring,
housing, schooling and the legalsystem yep, yep, yep, yep.
And mainstream body positivityignores all of those things.
(29:28):
Yes, and so this is a an AubreyGordon quote.
In 48 of the 50 us States, it isperfectly legal to deny someone
housing employment, a table ata restaurant or a room in a
hotel just because they're fat.
Wow, right.
Which is mind blowing, like,notably, very recently, new York
(29:49):
city passed a law banningsize-based discrimination, which
is great.
Massachusetts, if anybody, ifany of our listeners are in
Massachusetts, I believe thereis a similar bill in the in
state legislature right now, socontact your reps about that,
(30:10):
but we have got a long way to go, obviously, um, but but yeah, I
mean there are.
There are very distinct um andstudied instances of
discrimination in all of thesefields.
So, like in hiring and wages,there was an informal study in
(30:31):
2017 of over 500 hiring managersthat tested attitudes toward
potential employees based onsize by showing photos.
21% of the people testeddescribed the fattest women in
the photos as lazy andunprofessional, more than any of
the other photos they wereshown.
(30:51):
Only 18% said she hadleadership potential and only
15% said they would evenconsider hiring her oh my gosh
Based purely on a photo.
Sadie Simpson (31:05):
That's messed up.
Naomi Katz (31:07):
In a 2015 study, people were shown digital
resumes with photos of non-fatpeople and then digitally
altered photos of those samepeople as fat, and in that study
, fat job candidates were deemedsignificantly less competent
than non-fat candidates.
Job candidates were deemedsignificantly less competent
(31:29):
than non-fat candidates Againreminder that in this study,
they were literally talkingabout the same people.
It's just that in one set, thephoto had been digitally altered
to make them look fat and,interestingly, in this one, even
fat participants showed a biasagainst fat candidates, which
really clearly shows how weinternalize these stigmas.
(31:50):
Yet another reason why justtelling people to love their
bodies is not actually going tohelp us unpack these systemic
issues.
In a 2010 study in the US, theyshowed that heavy women earned
(32:14):
$9,000 less than average weightcounterparts.
Very heavy women earned $19,000less, oh my God.
Sadie Simpson (32:25):
And then on the flip side very thin women earned
$22,000 more than averageweight counterparts.
Naomi Katz (32:28):
That is such crap, Yep.
And again like think about thatin the context of and fat folks
need to pay more for theirclothes and things like that,
Right.
Sadie Simpson (32:38):
Double airplane seats like double airplane seats
extra stuff Exactly Yep, um.
Naomi Katz (32:45):
And then, lastly, in Englandland, women who are just
one stone, which is 14 poundsover their bmi mandated weight,
earn 1500 pounds less than athinner woman, 14 pounds over
your quote, unquote bmi, myended weight, mandated weight,
is like nothing.
No, it's like one dress size.
Sadie Simpson (33:09):
Yes.
Naomi Katz (33:11):
Yeah, oh my gosh.
And again, bmi hugelyproblematic, racist, all the
things.
Discrimination in school andeducation also a thing.
So, according to a 2018 metaanalysis, fat people are less
likely to go to college,regardless of their competence.
Fat women are less likely tohave their college tuition paid
(33:32):
for by their parents, which, inthe time of student loan debt,
is like a really big deal.
Fat students are less likely toget letters of recommendation
from their teachers likely toget letters of recommendation
from their teachers, and fatstudents are shown to receive
significantly lower grades inschool, despite showing no
statistically significantdifferences in intelligence or
(33:54):
test scores.
Oh my gosh.
And by test scores obviouslythey're talking about like
standardized test scores, notlike their tests in school,
because that would be theirgrades, yeah, like their weekly
spelling test or whatever Right.
Yeah, all of these thingsimportant again, how that
translates to hiring, how thattranslates to income, like all
(34:18):
of that stuff, and there's a lot.
I'm sure you know there'sreasons for this, but the
anti-fat bias is a big part ofit and all.
And we have to keep in mindintersectionality in all of
these things too.
Right, because we also seediscrimination in hiring and
schooling with, you know, peopleof color, with, you know,
gender non-conforming folks,with LGBTQIA plus individuals,
(34:43):
like all of that stuff, and soso, like, it's important to
remember that this stuffcompounds, um, within the
judicial system, like which Ifeel like was one that kind of I
I don't know like maybe itshouldn't have surprised.
It shouldn't have surprised me,especially because of what we
know about the roots of dietculture in white supremacy and
(35:06):
stuff like that and the way thatshows up in the judicial system
, but still, this stuff reallysurprised me.
Um, and so there's a 2013 studyshowed that men were more
likely to find a fat womanguilty of the same crime.
So, interestingly, women judgedboth defendants the same
(35:27):
whether they were, whether thefemale was thin or fat, and
there was no difference byanybody based on weight.
If the defendants were maleinstead of female.
Okay, stat victims of sexualassault are also often thought
to be either lying or that theyshould be quote, flattered.
(35:47):
Oh no, yep, this, notably.
This was a sentiment that waslike, explicitly expressed by a
quebec judge in 2017 oh my gosh.
And, of course, all the time incomment sections online, which
is like oh, whatever it'scomment sections online except
those are the people who wouldmake up a jury yep, so that
(36:11):
matters.
And then in like a very extremecase, fatness was even used as
a defense by the nypd againstthe murder of eric garner in
2014.
So er Eric Garner, a Black man,was killed on video when an
NYPD officer choked him to death, and in the 2019 administrative
(36:35):
hearings to determine if theofficer would keep his job, the
defense team argued that theofficer should not be held
accountable because Garner wasfat.
They said said quote he diedfrom being morbidly obese he was
a ticking time bomb thatresisted arrest.
If he was put in a bear hug, itwould have been the same outcome
(36:56):
oh my god, that is the worsthorrible, absolutely horrible.
Um, and it's like, it'sliterally, it's saying the the
quiet part out loud.
There too, like it's, it's,there's not.
They're not even pretendingthat it's anything other than
anti-fatness.
(37:16):
There and again, it's such a aclear illustration of how the
anti-fatness intersects withother marginalization too, like
white supremacy.
So, yeah, like.
Ultimately, these are really bigsystemic issues that aren't
going to be solved by us lovingour bodies, no matter what
(37:39):
mainstream body positivity tellsus right and like and again.
Ultimately, that's what bodypositivity misses.
We can't body image our way outof discrimination or social
exclusion.
And listen, if you are new tothe idea of body positivity and
listening to this, thisinformation is not meant to
(38:00):
shame you.
It's not meant to make you feellike you're doing anything
wrong.
Like we said in the beginning,we all need entry points.
We love an entry point.
So welcome, right, welcome tobody positivity.
Now here's your invitation tomove further into the movement,
into the practice, into theunderstanding around these
(38:22):
issues.
This is an invitation to learnmore about body liberation,
about fat positivity, about fatliberation, and also to notice
when body positivity is beingused as a way to sell us things
that very much do not move thedial on any of these bigger
issues and, for that matter,sometimes set that dial back If
(38:46):
you are interested in gettingsome support for deepening your
own anti-diet practice andincluding a systemic lens in
your work, because this stuff ishard.
It is like none of us havelearned this stuff on our own.
In fact, if you subscribe tothe Satisfaction Space, you will
hear in our bonus episode nextweek how each of us came into
(39:07):
this work and found our way pastthe entry point.
But I do want to remind youthat I have spots open for
one-on-one intuitive eating andanti-diet coaching.
I am a big believer in havingconversations around these
topics and breaking down thesystemic parts of diet culture
as a part of our work together,and I support a lot of my
(39:29):
clients as they learn toadvocate for themselves and for
others in situations wherethey're experiencing
marginalization.
So you can get all of theinformation about coaching and
submit your application athappyshapesco slash coaching and
we will put that link in theshow note as well.
Sadie Simpson (39:49):
Awesome.
Okay, Naomi, what's satisfyingfor you right now?
Naomi Katz (39:53):
So currently what is satisfying for me is that Ben
is starting to get into some ofmy favorite little like pop
culture, like obsessions, sothat we can share them together.
He just started reading a courtof thorns and roses oh snap and
we have watched, um, the firstseveral episodes of supernatural
(40:14):
together.
Okay, and I am like ecstaticabout it.
It's like it's just it's fun,like I'm super excited to like
to to talk to him about it.
Like Every time he reads, I'mlike what did you read?
Today I'm also rereading thebook so that I can have it fresh
(40:35):
to talk to him about it, but italso just makes me feel so
loved.
It's an awesome thing that he'sdoing to share these things
with me, and so, yeah, that's my, that's my thing for today.
What is satisfying you rightnow?
Sadie Simpson (40:53):
So my satisfying thing comes from something that
is not satisfying.
I guess this is like turninglemons into lemonade and
whatever you know, makinglemonade out of lemons and
whatever you know making makinglemonade out of lemons.
Um, at where I teach wateraerobics at the ymca, they are
working on the like hvac systemand including included in that
(41:17):
is the dehumidification systemand if you've ever been inside
of an indoor pool, it is like sohot and so humid and and this
is like when the systems areworking correctly, and so for
the last couple of weeks it'slike the dehumidification like
has not worked.
It is so freaking hot in thepool and so typically I teach
(41:37):
from the pool deck.
But since it's been so hot I'vebeen getting in the water to
teach my water aerobics classesand it's so fun like I it has
been so long since likeoccasionally I'll try to go take
other people's like wateraerobics classes and it's so fun
Like it has been so long sincelike occasionally I'll try to go
take other people's like wateraerobics classes and things, but
I don't really get a chance todo it very often and to actually
get in the water is verysatisfying and enjoyable to do
(41:59):
exercise in the water Like Itotally forget how pleasant it
is to do that.
So if you're listening and youneed a fun and satisfying form
of exercise.
I highly recommend wateraerobics inside the water, not
on the pool deck.
It's, it's very fabulous.
Naomi Katz (42:15):
That sounds awesome.
That is a great example ofmaking lemonade out of lemons.
When you first started thatstory I was like, oh my God,
that sounds horrible.
But then you were like I got inthe water and I was like, ooh,
I was that meme of that girlwho's like Ooh, and I was like
oh I know that meme, and that'sexactly what it is.
Amazing.
Sadie Simpson (42:39):
Awesome.
Well, if you enjoyed thisepisode, be sure to let us know
about it.
Leave us a positive rating andreview on Apple podcasts or
Spotify, and you can also comefind us on Instagram.
We are at satisfaction factorpod and we love hearing from
folks over there.
Naomi Katz (42:56):
That's it for us this week.
We'll catch you next time.
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