September 4, 2024 • 45 mins
In this episode, we're exploring the powerful ways straight-sized & smaller fat individuals can champion fat liberation and make the world safer for all bodies. With ten practical tips, we guide you on how to become a proactive ally, stressing that advocacy should be a collective effort rather than a burden solely on those who experience marginalization.
We're talking about:
- Actionable strategies for combating offensive humor and fostering inclusive environments
- The importance of providing constructive feedback
- The nuances of navigating social settings with inclusivity in mind
- Why where we spend our money matters
- The significance of reducing the additional burdens on those in larger bodies by doing our share of the labor.
Join us for a compelling conversation that not only educates but also calls for genuine empathy and systemic change.
Stay in touch with the pod on IG @satisfactionfactorpod!
And here's where you can continue to find us:
Sadie Simpson: www.sadiesimpson.com or IG @sadiemsimpson
Naomi Katz: www.happyshapes.co or IG @happyshapesnaomi
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Satisfaction Factor, the podcast
where we explore how ditchingdiet culture makes our whole
lives more satisfying.
Welcome back to SatisfactionFactor.
I'm Naomi Katz, an intuitiveeating and body image coach.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm Sadie Simpson, a intuitive eating and body image
coach.
I'm Sadie Simpson, a groupfitness instructor and personal
trainer.
Before we dig into this week'sepisode, just a reminder if
you'd like to support the show,we have merch.
We have a handful of designs onTeePublic that can be printed
as stickers, t-shirts,sweatshirts, mugs, tote bags and
whatever else you like.
T-shirts and sweatshirts comeinto sizes up to 5X and you can
(00:45):
check that out at the link inour show notes.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Also just a reminder that if you are looking for
support in your anti-diet andintuitive eating work, I have
availability for all of mycoaching options.
I have spots available forone-to-one intuitive eating and
anti-diet coaching.
That comes in coaching packagesof six, nine or 12 months.
I offer payment plans and otheraccessible pricing options.
(01:11):
Those packages include weeklyZoom calls, voxer messaging,
access between calls and copiesof the intuitive eating workbook
and the your Body Is Not AnApology workbook.
You can get all the informationabout that coaching and submit
your application athappyshapesco slash coaching.
I also offer individual pay whatyou can coaching calls, called
(01:33):
mindset reset calls.
These are individual hour-longcalls to discuss specific
sticking points without along-term coaching commitment.
You can get all the informationabout that and sign up for a
call at happyshapesco slashmindset reset.
And lastly, I am currentlytrying to gauge interest for a
fall cohort of my group coachingprogram, nourish and Bloom.
(01:55):
That's a 40-week group programincluding weekly written content
, monthly group calls, monthlyjournaling prompts and an online
community space.
You can get all the informationabout that at happyshapesco
slash nourish and bloom waitlist.
And if you're at all interested, please do get on the waitlist,
as that's how I'm going to knowif there's enough interest to
(02:17):
run that fall cohort.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yay, those all sound like amazing options, like
you've got a little bit ofsomething for everybody, if they
want the one-on-one support orif they are possibly interested
in the group or the one-off.
Like it's great to have options.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, I like to have all my bases covered and like
all the levels of accessibilitycovered too, yes.
Yeah, that's awesome.
We are talking about howstraight-sized folks can best
support and act in allyship withfat folks Good topic.
(02:52):
So we talk a lot about how thiswork is like much bigger than
how we feel about ourselves andhow it has to include work on a
societal level, because fatliberation and body liberation
are ultimately about making theworld safer and more inclusive
for all bodies, and that jobshouldn't rest solely on the
(03:13):
shoulders of the folks who aremost impacted by marginalization
of bodies.
So, like, yes, we talk a lot.
We want fat folks to be able toadvocate for themselves.
That's super important andunfortunately, sometimes society
is more willing to hear andrespond to advocacy from people
(03:36):
who fit their preconceivedideals.
That's shitty and it's not fairand it's terrible, but it's
also true, and so we really needfolks in straight side bodies
to help with this and to act insupport and allyship and
advocacy.
And so today we want to giveyou some ideas of how to do that
(04:00):
, because it's easy for us to belike do this, but you might not
even know where to start.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's good again to havesome practical ideas, and I feel
like a lot of the ideas thatwe're going to talk about today
can possibly spark other ideasfor other folks, maybe even
things we haven't thought aboutor things we're not talking
about on this episode, or maybeexamples other people possibly
have or can share.
If you have examples, you'realways welcome to come send us a
(04:27):
message on instagram atsatisfaction factor pod.
But this is a good, I feel likeconversation to have on a
societal level.
So this is our little corner ofsociety.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I guess that we can have this conversation I love, I
love thinking of this as ourlittle corner of society it's
like a society, like like onBridgerton, like we're going to
be out in society.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yes, for sure.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
The other thing that I think is important to say
before we dig into this is thatand we've talked about this
before too weight stigma andthin privilege exist on a
spectrum, exist on a spectrumand so like, yes, we're saying
straight size folks, but whatwe're really talking about and
this is really good advice forsmaller fat folks and basically
anyone who sits further towardthe thin privilege side of the
(05:14):
spectrum.
So like I identify as small fatand absolutely feel like this
is advice for me as well.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah, yeah, cool, let's do it, let's talk about it
, let's go through the list.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Fantastic, we've got 10 things here for you today,
cause I like a nice round numberlist.
I feel like we've done a fewrecently that have been like
seven or something like that andit's made me really
uncomfortable.
So I'm very happy that we have10 today, top 10.
Okay, so number one first andforemost, do your own work on
(05:52):
unpacking your anti-fat biases.
That's the hardest one and themost long term one, but it's
also at the top of the listbecause it is absolutely the
most important and mostimpactful thing.
If you have terrible feelingsabout fat on your own body, you
(06:14):
are definitely projecting thatoutward in some way or another.
Aubrey Gordon talks about thisall the time.
Your fat friends know how youfeel about fatness, even if you
think you're just directing itat yourself.
But yeah, if you hold negativefeelings toward fat bodies, even
(06:36):
your own, your fat friends andfamily know If being fat is your
greatest fear and you'reworking to avoid it for yourself
at all costs.
There is no way that the fatpeople in your life don't know
that their bodies are yournightmare and that's not good,
(06:58):
like they know that you are nota safe person for their bodies
and their lived experiences andstuff like that.
So this is important becauseyou have to start there.
So doing the work to unpack andto let go of your own biases is
going to minimize the harm thatyou do to fat folks, which you
(07:23):
are doing, even if inadvertently, like nobody's, saying you're
maliciously out there likemaking fat people feel bad and
doing harm.
But the reality is that if youare not a safe person for your
own body, you're probably not asafe person for other people's
bodies either.
Is it going to erase that harmor entirely prevent it?
(07:48):
Probably not.
I don't think there's really away to do that.
Like, we all are going to doharm somewhere along the line,
but it is going to minimize it.
It's going to help you tounderstand why things are
harmful when somebody does bringit to your attention, and it's
also going to help youunderstand why all the other
stuff on this list is sonecessary.
(08:09):
So, like this is, it's a placeto start, but it's not the kind
of thing where, like, you haveto finish this part before you
do anything else on the list.
This is something to doalongside everything else on the
list.
Basically, yeah, yeah, if thiswas like a chart.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
You would have this number, one thing, and then,
everything else would likebranch off the side and the nice
little tree pattern orsomething I don't know.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
And, um, you know you, itdoesn't have to start with like
you don't have to dive into liketherapy or coaching or
something like that.
Maybe at some point, that issomething you want to pursue.
You can start with like readingbooks.
Aubrey Gordon has two that arefantastic.
Check those out.
You know, your Body Is Not AnApology is an excellent book.
(08:55):
You can read the intuitiveeating book, but I don't
actually know how superimportant that is for this
particular task.
There's tons of books on fatliberation, body liberation,
anti-diet Anti-Diet by ChristyHarrison is an excellent book to
check out.
There's, you know, you canstart with things that feel
approachable and just sort ofcrack your mind open a little
(09:19):
bit and then start looking atmaybe some of the more the
deeper work of like coaching orsomething like that Thing.
Two, don't talk about your diet, your body size, etc.
And shut down that kind of talkaround you whenever possible.
(09:39):
Ooh, this is like a two-parter,yeah.
So here's the thing.
Ooh, this is like a two-parter,yeah.
So here's the thing, even ifyou are still doing the work and
you still have some feelingsabout your own body and all of
that stuff, frankly, even if youare still pursuing weight loss
for yourself, you don't have totalk about it, yep, especially
(10:05):
to or around the fat folks inyour life.
We have talked about this before.
Like body autonomy iseverything.
Like it is the root of all ofthis.
So do what you feel is best foryourself, no judgment.
But talking about it, especiallywithout consent, is not a
neutral or autonomous act.
Consent is not a neutral orautonomous act, and so that's
(10:25):
the part that we're talkingabout here.
Like, ideally, it would beamazing if you did the work and
got to the place where you alsowanted to give up dieting and
made peace with your body andall of that stuff.
But even if that's not whereyou're at, you don't have to
talk about it.
And beyond your own diet andbody talk, you can be the one to
(10:48):
change the topic when it comesup in groups, rather than
letting that responsibility fallto the person in the group who
is maybe most harmed or mostvulnerable to that conversation
and, because society is what itis, would also probably be the
most likely to be judged forchanging the topic away from
that.
(11:08):
So, like you, be that person,don't make them be that person
yeah, well, this is something Imean.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
This comes up probably on a weekly basis in in
all of my jobs, in any groupfitness class, sometimes in in
personal training, depending onthe scenario, but especially in
a group class where there'sdifferent personalities,
different viewpoints on bodiesand body size and all that sort
of thing.
(11:35):
But like it is definitelybecome a common practice for me
to redirect conversations ingroup classes and not all the
time, but in a lot of scenariosit's a good opportunity to just
kind of throw in a little bit ofeducation about, especially
around movement as it is relatedto, like, body size and body
(11:55):
size change and things like that.
But definitely redirection isis uh, it's my go-to, because a
lot of times, like we're gettingready to start class and then
somebody comes in and is like Istarted the whole 30 or whatever
you know something, something,just out of nowhere, and it's
like, okay, let's turn thatmusic on and we're just going to
get started, people.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, I am sure that you dealwith this all the time and it's
a really good reminder that thisworks on a personal and
professional level.
Like this like maybe you'relike in your office in the break
room and somebody startstalking about diet or bodies or
whatever.
Like maybe you're a teacher,it's like back to school time
(12:37):
and like the kids in your classare starting to talk about this
stuff.
Like maybe you're a personaltrainer.
Like there's just there's a lotof contexts where this stuff
Like um, maybe you're a personaltrainer.
Like there's just there's a lotof contexts where this works.
And PS, we have multipleepisodes all about strategies
for disrupting diet talk.
So, um, definitely like, goahead and listen to those
(13:00):
episodes to help you do thispart.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah Well, I will say like I've also talked to folks
that have listened to some ofthose episodes or maybe have
done their own work, kind ofoutside of listening to the
podcast, but other bodyliberation, anti-diet based work
and folks have shared with mestories, though of how they have
done this, like how they'vebeen in conversations with their
families or friends orcoworkers or whatever.
(13:24):
How they've been inconversations with their
families or friends or coworkersor whatever and they've been
able to be the person to kind ofchange the subject or to
redirect or whatever, and itjust it feels really cool to be
able to have conversations likethat with other people.
So also on that note too, likeif you're able to find other
folks to kind of to share yourwins, so to speak, is nice,
because we don't often get achance to have wins.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
It's not like we're sharing like oh, I lost 50
pounds weight loss win situation, it's like the opposite of that
so we have, if we have somesort of community and somewhere
in some way to to discuss thesetopics is very helpful for sure,
which you can always come andsend us a message on Instagram
and we will cheer you on forsure.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
We will.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Okay, action number three speak up when people say
derogatory things about fatness,about fat people.
Maybe that's jokes, maybethat's like outright malicious
stuff, but regardless, speak up.
One Like you.
(14:38):
Be the one to say somethinglike this is super, and this is
incredibly important, even ifthere are no fat people around
when it happens.
Right, because it perpetuatesharmful stereotypes and
misinformation.
If you wouldn't stay silentwhen you hear somebody say
something racist, don't staysilent when you hear something
say something racist.
Don't stay silent when you hearsomething somebody say
something fat phobic, it's, it'sthe.
(15:00):
The reason you wouldn't staysilent for one is exactly the
same reason why you shouldn'tstay silent for the other,
because these are both likeissues of systemic oppression,
and these comments uphold that.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I like to think of it like how you said even if
somebody in a bigger body is notin the room and somebody's
making like snide comments, likeimagine that somebody is,
imagine that your friend whomight be in a bigger body is
there like would you wantsomebody to say something like
that in front of your friend?
No, you would not want that tohappen.
So like, if it helps to kind ofimagine something like, that
(15:36):
helps me a lot.
Like if I'm in situations whereit's maybe straight size,
smaller people all in a room,maybe somebody makes a joke or
something like that, to be like,oh my god, if they said that in
front of so-and-so, I would, Iwould be livid, so right yes,
and that's the thing is, like Idon't care if I'm one-on-one
with somebody like no, likethat's not okay.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
I'm gonna say something, and there's a lot of
ways to handle that too.
Again, like, feel free to checkout our past episodes.
One technique that I've reallythat I've seen a lot online
lately that I really really likeis asking them to explain why,
like for a joke, for instance,to explain why it's funny.
Right, it's not something I'veever thought about, but it makes
(16:26):
so much sense because, like,having to like put into words
why this like horribly offensivejoke is funny is going to like
trip them up, especially because, again, like maybe this is
naive, but I actually don'tthink it is.
I even people who are makingjokes like this I don't think
(16:49):
are doing it to intentionally bemalicious.
Like I don't think theyunderstand the systemic
oppression part of this, thebias, the discrimination, like I
think there's a lot of layersthat they don't understand about
it and I think sometimes don'teven really understand how
harmful the joke is.
(17:11):
But then you go to make themexplain it and like that's going
to be really uncomfortable andit's going to make them realize
how offensive it is too yeah,that's a really neat technique
because it's almost like a.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
It turns it back on the other person and kind of
makes them start to consider ohwhy am I saying this?
Am I just repeating it becausesomebody else said it, like
whatever.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, and it's like it's not quite as
confrontational as being likedon't say that, which is fine,
like I'm also fine with don'tsay that, but like it can also,
just like you can kind of playdumb a little, you can be like I
don't get that.
Can you explain it to me?
Like why is that funny?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
like you can kind of play dumb a little you can be
like I don't get that.
Can you explain it to me?
Like why is that funny?
I like this.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
I'm like jotting notes right now.
I think that's a greattechnique, as always, I love
options that like take intoaccount people's abilities and
preferences and communicationstyles and stuff like that, and
so like, yeah, that was one thatI really enjoyed.
Action number four send emailsto people like to both tell them
(18:21):
if their spaces are notinclusive and also thank you
emails when they do provideparticularly inclusive spaces
amen, amen.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Like we love a good complaint letter, we love a good
negative comment card, but wealso love a positive.
Like we never it just ingeneral.
We is like the universal wenever did.
I say universal we.
We never get like publiccompliments, like Google reviews
or Yelp reviews or whatever.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Like heck yes, I love that Totally, that totally.
It's so funny.
I've been sending emails aboutlike lack of inclusivity for
years, but I actually neverthought to send positive
feedback about inclusivity untila friend mentioned it like a
couple weeks ago, that she doesthat and I was like, oh, like I
love that like we've learned foryears that positive
(19:14):
reinforcement is more productivethan negative, so like, let's
keep reinforcing the good.
Totally.
You know.
I also like I put this actionitem on here as send emails.
What it really is is givefeedback.
Personally, I like doing thisin email format because I am
pretty conflict avoidant andanxious, so like saying
(19:37):
something in person doeshorrible things to like my
adrenaline and my nervous system, like I'll be sweating for days
.
My heart rate will not likereturn to normal for a week,
like it's bad.
But an email is so easy, likeeverywhere has contact forms
online, like so it's not evenlike you have to have a person
(19:59):
to contact.
If you do, that's great,because that's probably going to
get eyes better than justthrough a contact form.
But even a contact form is likesomething right.
The other thing is I personallylike to phrase this as like I
know that you want to serve asmany people as possible.
I know that you want to fosteran inclusive environment.
(20:20):
I know that you want to do this, so here's a way that you could
be doing that more, so thatlike it kind of assumes positive
intention rather than just likecriticizing.
Yeah, I like that, and like I, Ilike that and like, I feel like
people I don't know I feel likepeople respond better, if
you're like, assuming positiveintent on their end like and
(20:44):
like because what are they gonnasay?
Like oh no, actually I don't, Idon't care about inclusivity.
Like that's not nobody, likepeople are gonna feel weird
saying that.
I think a lot of this is justmake people feel weird.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
So they do what you want.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
But not really Very bad consent stuff.
It's not that and yeah, it'struly.
It's not about manipulatingpeople, but it is about doing
things in a way where people aregoing to be more open to
(21:22):
hearing what you're saying, toaccepting the feedback that
you're giving, and so, startingat a place where you're assuming
positive intent is helpful, itlike couches it in a positive
light instead of just likecriticism which people can like
just shut down.
Yeah for sure.
Um, action five decline beingweighed at the doctor unless
(21:46):
it's absolutely necessary.
Um, we've talked about this amillion times.
We've done entire episodesabout like medical stuff.
Definitely go check out out theReagan Chastain episode for
like how to go about dealingwith this stuff.
In a perfect world, it wouldn'tmatter if we got weight or not.
Like weight could just be likea neutral piece of data that was
(22:09):
collected but didn't impactanything.
But that's not the case.
Weight is treated like thedeciding factor in how most
people are medically treated,which literally has life and
death impact, mostly for folksin larger bodies, primarily for
folks in larger bodies, buthonestly for all of us in some
(22:30):
way or another.
So the more we can push backagainst the idea that weight is
a relevant measurement thatneeds to be taken at every
medical encounter, the betterthat's going to be for everyone.
Which means, even if youpersonally are totally okay with
seeing or knowing your weight,which is great, good for you.
(22:52):
Again, like, ideally, thatwould be a neutral thing that
we'd all be fine with, even ifyou're in a straight sized body
and it's very unlikely that yourdoctor is going to make
criticisms or, you know,misdiagnose or you know
recommend weight loss as asolution.
(23:13):
Like, even if all of that istrue, you're doing something
good by declining to be weight,because it sends a message, it
disrupts the status quo and whenstraight-sized folks do it, it
also, again, unfortunately, cancarry more weight.
No pun intended, but becauseit's not going to be dismissed.
(23:38):
The same way that it might bedismissed if somebody in a
larger body declines to beweighed, where, like, that can
be written off as like, oh, thatperson feels ashamed of their
weight, that person is emotional, that person is irrational,
that person is self-destructive,like, whatever.
It's just it's not going to beframed that way when a person in
(23:59):
a smaller body declines to beweighed.
So it just it's a good thing todo as a practice when, again,
when it's not medicallynecessary, which sometimes it is
Okay.
Action six shop at places thathave inclusive sizing, like,
obviously, folks in largerbodies don't really have a
(24:19):
choice about this one, butthat's what makes it such a
great act of allyship for folksin smaller bodies.
Like corporations don't dothings out of the goodness of
their hearts, they do things tomake money.
They do things to make money.
So if we all started shoppingonly at places with inclusive
sizing, there would be afinancial impact, yes, and there
(24:47):
would be like financialmotivation for these brands to
offer more inclusive sizing.
And just like I want to sayside note, but it's actually not
a side note, it is literallythe point of this action.
Item 3X is not all thatinclusive.
I feel like it's a bare minimum, like it's better than nothing,
but it leaves a lot of folksout, especially if sizing runs
(25:10):
small, which a lot of places do,yes, run small, which a lot of
places do yes, like I can wear a2x from some places, which
means that, like there are a lotof people who can't shop there
at all.
Nope, um and like, honestly,even in places where I wear a
like a 1x, which is like morestandard, that's still like a 3X
(25:34):
is just not enough of a range.
So, and especially because,like, the average size of like
is like a US 16, 18, which is a1X usually, sometimes a 1X is
like a 14, 16, again becausesizes are weird and sometimes
(25:54):
they run smaller or whatever,but the point is like that's
average and so if you only go upto a 3X, that's not a good size
range.
Yeah, um, but 3x, I feel like,is like a bare minimum yeah um,
but I hate when places are likewhere's clothing for all bodies?
(26:18):
we stop at a 3x and it's like no, you're not.
Like I've seen worse, but likethis is definitely not all
bodies.
Um, so yeah, like, even if youpersonally can shop anywhere if
you have the means, becausesometimes places with inclusive
sizing are more expensive notalways, but sometimes if you
(26:41):
have the means, put that moneyinto a place that has inclusive
sizing leads kind of directly toaction number seven, which is
support fat businesses, fatmedia, like fat everything.
Basically, you know, buy thingsfrom fat creators, watch tv and
movies with fat characters,especially fat leads, when you
(27:05):
can find them.
Read books with fat maincharacters.
Like, show them, jerry, my mylike 90s kid is coming out, but
so I want to jerry mcguire this.
Show them the money.
But like literally, like putthe money in the hands of fat
(27:25):
people.
And also show networks,production companies, like
publishers, like all of thesepeople, that there is money in
positive portrayals of fatcharacters.
Um, it's similar to like, youknow, the whole thing used to be
like oh, there's no money inmovies about women, there's no
(27:50):
money in women's sports, andlike, more and more, the public
proved that wrong, yep, and sonow we're getting more of those
things and this is the samething.
Okay, action number eight Don'tsit in the armless chairs.
I feel like an umbrella thinglike this is an example of like
(28:13):
a much bigger thing.
But so, specifically, armlesschairs, most places have very
limited seating for folks inlarger bodies.
Obviously, that's the largerlike systemic problem and that's
why what we talked aboutearlier, about like giving
feedback, sending emails, is soimportant.
But there's like the systemicside of things and the personal
(28:34):
side of things, and so this is apersonal action we can take to
make sure that those limitedseats are available for the
people who actually need them.
I don't know, at some point Idon't know, maybe a couple of
years ago I started to noticethat I'd go into usually in a
doctor's office, like waitingroom that there'd be like a
(28:54):
handful of chairs that were bigenough to accommodate larger
bodies, which great, and I wouldgo in and like 90% of the time,
there was some skinny personsitting in these chairs.
That sounds derogatory.
It was more just that, like inthe moment, I was like why
there's like an entire waitingroom of chairs that you could
(29:14):
easily comfortably sit in.
What was it that made youchoose the one chair that would
be accessible for somebody in alarger body, when you obviously
do not need that?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yeah, I feel like people are just oblivious, they
just don't think.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Well and.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
I can even think the last time we went to the
pediatrician's office causethere's even different size
chairs like the like kind of adouble chair, single chair,
armless chairs, arm chairs evenin the pediatrician's office,
and I remember my kid went andsat in like this bigger kind of
double chair, and he was like,oh, this is this one's more like
a couch I can lay down.
I was like no, let.
(29:51):
And he's like, oh, this is thisone's more like a couch I can
lay down.
I was like no, let's just comeover here and you sit in this
chair and I'll sit in this chairLike it's.
You know, I didn't get intodetails with him in the moment,
but I feel like as he gets olderand is more aware, like that's
a great opportunity to talk tomy child about this as we're
going into the doctor's office,because he like immediately was
drawn to this larger chair and Iwas like that's not for you,
son yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Um, first of all, I love that you did that and like,
yeah, like when you're, whenit's like a child, maybe that's
not like in the moment at thedoctor's office, like maybe
that's not the time to have thebig conversation, but like it
does it, you still handled it.
And like later you can have aconversation about it.
Like absolutely, I am listen.
(30:34):
I don't want to be like Iunderstand that.
Like we can't always see thereasons why people need
accommodations, like a need foran armless chair or a larger
chair outside of like body size,but that doesn't mean there
(30:56):
isn't one.
So like I'm not saying likedon't walk up to people in the
office and be like, get out ofthat chair.
You don't know what people are,what people are dealing with.
It's the same as like don'tharass people in.
Like you know disabled parkingspots.
Like because you don't know,you don't know why they're there
.
Like just don't do that.
But you personally can make achoice about not participating
(31:21):
in that behavior.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, well, I think that that also opens up the idea
and the conversation of beingmindful of accessibility needs
in general and public.
Like thinking about bathroomstalls and sink accessibility,
parking situations and even whenyou're going somewhere with
your friends.
Like not squishing three adults, large or small, like not
(31:44):
squishing adults together in aseat is going to be
uncomfortable, but also beingmindful of people's body sizes.
But even thinking about, likewhenever we're going on group
trips or we're going on hangoutswith people and we're
carpooling, considering, maybeasking our friends maybe we have
friends in bigger bodies, maybethey're more comfortable
driving their own vehicle, maybethey want to be the driver for
(32:06):
the other folks.
Or like offering the passengerseat to people instead of again
like just trying to make peopleuncomfortable in a vehicle that
they are not not comfortable in.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
This is kind of why I said itwas like the umbrella problem
from like a bigger conversation,because, yes, like it's
absolutely like, there's a lotof examples of the same dynamic
where it's like you can you canbe aware of the fact that other
bodies might need differentaccommodations.
(32:38):
Right, um, I love what youbrought up about parking like
that's the other, like when yougo to park, park in the center
of the parking spot so there isroom on either side.
Parking lots for folks in largerbodies can be really tricky and
not great anyway, because a lotof parking spots are very
(33:00):
narrow and the cars are closetogether.
But when people park stupidlyand carelessly and right on the
line, it makes it practicallyimpossible.
You're literally trappingpeople in their cars or just
making it so that there isn't aparking spot for them Because,
like they probably know, oh Ican't park in the spot next to
(33:21):
that person.
But like what if they'realready parked and you come and
park, you know, right up next tothem and now they can't get
into their car?
Like be mindful of this stuff.
Like it's honestly what itreally comes down to is just
being mindful of the ways thatthe world is not built for folks
in larger bodies and like beand and taking whatever actions
(33:44):
you can to minimize that.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I feel like this is our one and only opportunity to
capitalize on like a viral trend.
But we can be demure and we canbe mindful about our
surroundings.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Very demure, very mindful, not sitting in the
armless chairs.
Right Action nine builds righton top of this one, which is
thinking about your fat friend'scomfort when you go places
Seating, accessibility, sizing,things like that.
So like you be the one to tellthe host at the restaurant that
(34:20):
you want a table instead of abooth.
Like you call the theater tosee what the seat sizes are and
whether there's any accessibleseating.
You get online and see what thelayout and the seating at the
bar and the restaurant is likebefore suggesting it as a
hangout.
Like you make sure the storesyou're visiting on your shopping
day carry their sizes.
(34:40):
This one's a little tricky, butwhenever possible, make sure
the furniture in your house hasinclusive weight limits so they
don't have to worry about thatwhen they come visit.
That is very hard becauseweight limits on on affordable
furniture are not great and likeand furniture is super
expensive.
(35:01):
So like.
This one is like a when you can,when at least, at least keep it
in mind while you're shopping.
But like it's hard and like andlike.
That's just.
That is a systemic problem thatis not necessarily yours to
solve.
So it's just a do what you can,but ultimately, like fat folks
do so much labor to researchthis stuff before going places.
(35:25):
So like help them out, likeshare some of that burden, like
the fact that they are the onesmost impacted by this doesn't
mean that they should also carryall the labor of it.
And actually looking into thisstuff and planning for it and
taking it into consideration isgoing to show them that you see
(35:48):
them and you care about them and, like all of that stuff, that
they're not an afterthought andthat you understand some of
their lived experiences, andthat's huge.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Well, and this happens quite a bit also in my
personal training sessions andin group classes but being more
mindful of like words that I'mchoosing to say that feels more
comfortable for people.
Not only that, but likeequipment use, like when I'm
thinking of certain pieces ofequipment, some things just
aren't going to work for certainbodies, like barbell deadlifts,
(36:22):
for example.
Sometimes if people have abigger belly that maybe sticks
out more towards the front, itis not going to be that
comfortable for some body typesto do to conventional deadlifts
with a barbell.
Or maybe, like we need toreadjust somebody's stance or we
need to choose somethingdifferent, like dumbbells or
kettlebells or different thingslike that.
But definitely being moremindful of that in a fitness
(36:46):
scenario has been, like, very,very important for my work, for
sure, but not only that, likebeing considerate of equipment
and being an advocate for that,like whenever I know that the
gym is considering purchasingnew treadmills or bikes or
ellipticals or whatever.
Like reminding people likelet's check the weight
(37:08):
capacities of these thingsbecause we need to be able to
serve lots of different bodysizes on this equipment yeah,
that is huge and like honestlyit's so.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Like, on a personal note, it's something that I
continue to be very frustratedwith in the pilates world,
because it is just amazing howoften things are cued in a way
that like does not accommodatefor having a belly like at all
and like how often it's like,and it's cute in a way where
(37:39):
it's like it's not a suggestionand it's not like a there's no
alternative cuing or anythinglike that.
It's just like this veryspecific, like regimented way of
cuing things and it's like Iknow better.
So I still do what I need to dofor my body, but like there are
other people in this class whomight not know that, so yeah, ps
(38:01):
, uh, I can.
Lindsay, who is fat bodyPilates on Instagram, does
workshops like every few monthson, like making Pilates queuing
and like equipment modificationsfor fat bodies.
So like, if any Pilatesinstructors are listening to
(38:23):
this, definitely go follow her,definitely take those workshops
because it's a practice makingthose adjustments, and so like
having much like this episode,like having somebody to be like
okay, cause you might even.
Like your intent is there.
Like you want to create aninclusive environment but you
don't necessarily know what'sinclusive and not inclusive, or
(38:43):
like how to go about doing that.
So like, let somebody teach you.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that's really importantand even I mean this applies
specifically to teaching afitness class scenario, but I
feel like it could be replicatedin other areas but like being
able to change the plan that youhave in your brain, like not
only in a fitness situation, butlike going out with friends or
(39:08):
choosing a different restaurantor whatever, like you may have a
set plan and once you get thereit might not be the right plan.
So being able to be flexiblebecause I know there was one
time I had a plan to use acouple of different balls, like
the big stability, like the bigyoga balls, and then even like
the smaller, like squishyPilates balls in a class and it
(39:30):
was not accessible for peopleand slash or it freaked people
out Like people were, even ifthey were maybe at the cusp of
the weight capacity of the ball.
They were like, fortunately,verbally told me they're like
I'm scared, I'm going to popthis ball and I'm like we can
change the plan.
But kind of being more mindfulof that on the front end can
(39:51):
save people like stress fromhaving to tell me that they're
that on the front end, can savepeople like stress from having
to tell me that they're afraidthat the ball may pop or
something like that, and thatmay, you know, be helpful for
other people in the class too.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Absolutely and like, on the one hand, like don't
assume people's abilities, buton the other hand, when like,
like if you can anticipate someof that stuff, so that they
don't have to say, like I'mafraid I'm going to pop this
ball, or like again, I'm afraidI'm going to break your couch,
(40:20):
or like something like that,that's nice.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
That's nice to do for people.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Yeah, having said that, that kind of brings us to
our action number 10, which isask your fat friends and family
what they need.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yes, just ask people.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Like it is.
It's actually okay, like I knowyou don't want the burden to be
on them to like educate you orand we do want to take the
burden off them to do theendless research and like all of
this stuff.
We do want to try andanticipate some of the stuff.
That's like more obvious, thatwe know, but like it's also okay
to say, hey, what do you needfrom me?
(41:00):
Like what can I do to make thiseasier for you, to make this
better for you, to support you,like that's a beautiful thing to
do for somebody.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
I think so too, and I love this.
One like this is my favoriteone of all of them, because I
feel like we tend to be afraidthat we're going to offend
somebody, that if we ask themwhat they need, but it's like
it's literally not offensive.
We have this fear that we'regoing to make somebody
uncomfortable and it's theopposite.
Like anytime I have ever donethis, it has literally been the
(41:31):
exact opposite of beingoffensive is made people feel
more comfortable, more heard,more respected.
It's.
It's been a great situationevery time.
So just just ask people.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah, totally.
I agree, like on the whenpeople have asked me what I need
for things, it's like I'mterrible at answering, but I
also like feel very cared forand, like you know, and again
like respected, heard all ofthat scene, all of that stuff,
and it's like that's, that'sreally nice and it's also just
(42:03):
like, again, it's just like anacknowledgement of live, of
their lived experience.
It's just like letting themknow that you know that like
shit is hard.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Right, like, and that you are, like, willing and able
to share that burden with themor, like you know, share some of
the work of making things lesshard.
Yeah, that's, that's a big dealfor people.
So, yeah, like, that's finallylike actually talk to and
communicate with your friendsand family.
(42:38):
A million other things thatcould go on this list but, again
, I like a nice round number.
But if you listen to this, ifyou are in a larger body and
there are other things that youwish that your friends, your
(43:00):
family that, like people insmaller bodies would do to like,
help, support you, to act inallyship, send us a message, let
us know.
We will share it on instagram.
And, like you know, let peopleknow.
If you are a person in asmaller body who does things to
support and act on the allyshipthat's not on this list, send a
(43:23):
message, let us know.
We will share it on instagram.
Like, I would love for peopleto have more resources of like
where to start and what to dowith this stuff.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Awesome.
Well, Naomi, what's satisfyingfor you right now?
Speaker 1 (43:37):
This is so ridiculous .
But here's what's satisfying meright now Calvin Klein came out
with their 2024 campaign andit's Jeremy Allen White again,
and I just I'm very happy, I'mvery happy about it.
There's even a dog in some ofthe pictures, and it's just.
I just I'm very happy, I'm veryhappy.
There's even a dog in some ofthe pictures, and it's just.
I mean, is there anythingbetter?
(43:58):
Like no, I'm.
This is my summer made.
It's good.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
That's a.
That's a pretty good one rightthere.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
What is satisfying for you right now.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Recently I had a birthday and my mom got me a
very exciting birthday present.
She got me, like one of thesemassive tubs of cookie dough
from Sam's Club for part of mybirthday present and I'm like
what?
That's the perfect birthdaypresent for me.
And I can eat some of thecookie dough and I can make some
cookies and they just keep oncoming.
(44:30):
So that has been a verysatisfying gift for me.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
First of all, I was totally.
My first question was going tobe whether you bake the cookies
or eat the cookie dough.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
So I love that you do .
Speaker 1 (44:40):
My second question is what kind of cookie dough?
Oh?
Speaker 2 (44:43):
chocolate chip like just good old fashioned chip.
Pillsbury chocolate chip cookiedough.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Awesome.
I love that.
That is a really good birthdaygift.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
It is.
It is a very good gift.
The gift that keeps on givinguntil we run out of cookie dough
.
Right, but then you can getmore and it's fine.
Well, if you enjoyed thisepisode, be sure to leave us a
rating and review on Applepodcasts or Spotify.
Those ratings and reviews helpus reach more people and it just
helps get the anti-diet messageout into the world.
(45:13):
We are also on Instagram atsatisfaction factor pod.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
That's it for us this week.
We'll catch you next time.
Welcome to Satisfaction Factor, the podcast
where we explore how ditchingdiet culture makes our whole
lives more satisfying.
Welcome back to SatisfactionFactor.
I'm Naomi Katz, an intuitiveeating and body image coach.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm Sadie Simpson, a intuitive eating and body image
coach.
I'm Sadie Simpson, a groupfitness instructor and personal
trainer.
Before we dig into this week'sepisode, just a reminder if
you'd like to support the show,we have merch.
We have a handful of designs onTeePublic that can be printed
as stickers, t-shirts,sweatshirts, mugs, tote bags and
whatever else you like.
T-shirts and sweatshirts comeinto sizes up to 5X and you can
(00:45):
check that out at the link inour show notes.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Also just a reminder that if you are looking for
support in your anti-diet andintuitive eating work, I have
availability for all of mycoaching options.
I have spots available forone-to-one intuitive eating and
anti-diet coaching.
That comes in coaching packagesof six, nine or 12 months.
I offer payment plans and otheraccessible pricing options.
(01:11):
Those packages include weeklyZoom calls, voxer messaging,
access between calls and copiesof the intuitive eating workbook
and the your Body Is Not AnApology workbook.
You can get all the informationabout that coaching and submit
your application athappyshapesco slash coaching.
I also offer individual pay whatyou can coaching calls, called
(01:33):
mindset reset calls.
These are individual hour-longcalls to discuss specific
sticking points without along-term coaching commitment.
You can get all the informationabout that and sign up for a
call at happyshapesco slashmindset reset.
And lastly, I am currentlytrying to gauge interest for a
fall cohort of my group coachingprogram, nourish and Bloom.
(01:55):
That's a 40-week group programincluding weekly written content
, monthly group calls, monthlyjournaling prompts and an online
community space.
You can get all the informationabout that at happyshapesco
slash nourish and bloom waitlist.
And if you're at all interested, please do get on the waitlist,
as that's how I'm going to knowif there's enough interest to
(02:17):
run that fall cohort.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yay, those all sound like amazing options, like
you've got a little bit ofsomething for everybody, if they
want the one-on-one support orif they are possibly interested
in the group or the one-off.
Like it's great to have options.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, I like to have all my bases covered and like
all the levels of accessibilitycovered too, yes.
Yeah, that's awesome.
We are talking about howstraight-sized folks can best
support and act in allyship withfat folks Good topic.
(02:52):
So we talk a lot about how thiswork is like much bigger than
how we feel about ourselves andhow it has to include work on a
societal level, because fatliberation and body liberation
are ultimately about making theworld safer and more inclusive
for all bodies, and that jobshouldn't rest solely on the
(03:13):
shoulders of the folks who aremost impacted by marginalization
of bodies.
So, like, yes, we talk a lot.
We want fat folks to be able toadvocate for themselves.
That's super important andunfortunately, sometimes society
is more willing to hear andrespond to advocacy from people
(03:36):
who fit their preconceivedideals.
That's shitty and it's not fairand it's terrible, but it's
also true, and so we really needfolks in straight side bodies
to help with this and to act insupport and allyship and
advocacy.
And so today we want to giveyou some ideas of how to do that
(04:00):
, because it's easy for us to belike do this, but you might not
even know where to start.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's good again to havesome practical ideas, and I feel
like a lot of the ideas thatwe're going to talk about today
can possibly spark other ideasfor other folks, maybe even
things we haven't thought aboutor things we're not talking
about on this episode, or maybeexamples other people possibly
have or can share.
If you have examples, you'realways welcome to come send us a
(04:27):
message on instagram atsatisfaction factor pod.
But this is a good, I feel likeconversation to have on a
societal level.
So this is our little corner ofsociety.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I guess that we can have this conversation I love, I
love thinking of this as ourlittle corner of society it's
like a society, like like onBridgerton, like we're going to
be out in society.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yes, for sure.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
The other thing that I think is important to say
before we dig into this is thatand we've talked about this
before too weight stigma andthin privilege exist on a
spectrum, exist on a spectrumand so like, yes, we're saying
straight size folks, but whatwe're really talking about and
this is really good advice forsmaller fat folks and basically
anyone who sits further towardthe thin privilege side of the
(05:14):
spectrum.
So like I identify as small fatand absolutely feel like this
is advice for me as well.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah, yeah, cool, let's do it, let's talk about it
, let's go through the list.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Fantastic, we've got 10 things here for you today,
cause I like a nice round numberlist.
I feel like we've done a fewrecently that have been like
seven or something like that andit's made me really
uncomfortable.
So I'm very happy that we have10 today, top 10.
Okay, so number one first andforemost, do your own work on
(05:52):
unpacking your anti-fat biases.
That's the hardest one and themost long term one, but it's
also at the top of the listbecause it is absolutely the
most important and mostimpactful thing.
If you have terrible feelingsabout fat on your own body, you
(06:14):
are definitely projecting thatoutward in some way or another.
Aubrey Gordon talks about thisall the time.
Your fat friends know how youfeel about fatness, even if you
think you're just directing itat yourself.
But yeah, if you hold negativefeelings toward fat bodies, even
(06:36):
your own, your fat friends andfamily know If being fat is your
greatest fear and you'reworking to avoid it for yourself
at all costs.
There is no way that the fatpeople in your life don't know
that their bodies are yournightmare and that's not good,
(06:58):
like they know that you are nota safe person for their bodies
and their lived experiences andstuff like that.
So this is important becauseyou have to start there.
So doing the work to unpack andto let go of your own biases is
going to minimize the harm thatyou do to fat folks, which you
(07:23):
are doing, even if inadvertently, like nobody's, saying you're
maliciously out there likemaking fat people feel bad and
doing harm.
But the reality is that if youare not a safe person for your
own body, you're probably not asafe person for other people's
bodies either.
Is it going to erase that harmor entirely prevent it?
(07:48):
Probably not.
I don't think there's really away to do that.
Like, we all are going to doharm somewhere along the line,
but it is going to minimize it.
It's going to help you tounderstand why things are
harmful when somebody does bringit to your attention, and it's
also going to help youunderstand why all the other
stuff on this list is sonecessary.
(08:09):
So, like this is, it's a placeto start, but it's not the kind
of thing where, like, you haveto finish this part before you
do anything else on the list.
This is something to doalongside everything else on the
list.
Basically, yeah, yeah, if thiswas like a chart.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
You would have this number, one thing, and then,
everything else would likebranch off the side and the nice
little tree pattern orsomething I don't know.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
And, um, you know you, itdoesn't have to start with like
you don't have to dive into liketherapy or coaching or
something like that.
Maybe at some point, that issomething you want to pursue.
You can start with like readingbooks.
Aubrey Gordon has two that arefantastic.
Check those out.
You know, your Body Is Not AnApology is an excellent book.
(08:55):
You can read the intuitiveeating book, but I don't
actually know how superimportant that is for this
particular task.
There's tons of books on fatliberation, body liberation,
anti-diet Anti-Diet by ChristyHarrison is an excellent book to
check out.
There's, you know, you canstart with things that feel
approachable and just sort ofcrack your mind open a little
(09:19):
bit and then start looking atmaybe some of the more the
deeper work of like coaching orsomething like that Thing.
Two, don't talk about your diet, your body size, etc.
And shut down that kind of talkaround you whenever possible.
(09:39):
Ooh, this is like a two-parter,yeah.
So here's the thing.
Ooh, this is like a two-parter,yeah.
So here's the thing, even ifyou are still doing the work and
you still have some feelingsabout your own body and all of
that stuff, frankly, even if youare still pursuing weight loss
for yourself, you don't have totalk about it, yep, especially
(10:05):
to or around the fat folks inyour life.
We have talked about this before.
Like body autonomy iseverything.
Like it is the root of all ofthis.
So do what you feel is best foryourself, no judgment.
But talking about it, especiallywithout consent, is not a
neutral or autonomous act.
Consent is not a neutral orautonomous act, and so that's
(10:25):
the part that we're talkingabout here.
Like, ideally, it would beamazing if you did the work and
got to the place where you alsowanted to give up dieting and
made peace with your body andall of that stuff.
But even if that's not whereyou're at, you don't have to
talk about it.
And beyond your own diet andbody talk, you can be the one to
(10:48):
change the topic when it comesup in groups, rather than
letting that responsibility fallto the person in the group who
is maybe most harmed or mostvulnerable to that conversation
and, because society is what itis, would also probably be the
most likely to be judged forchanging the topic away from
that.
(11:08):
So, like you, be that person,don't make them be that person
yeah, well, this is something Imean.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
This comes up probably on a weekly basis in in
all of my jobs, in any groupfitness class, sometimes in in
personal training, depending onthe scenario, but especially in
a group class where there'sdifferent personalities,
different viewpoints on bodiesand body size and all that sort
of thing.
(11:35):
But like it is definitelybecome a common practice for me
to redirect conversations ingroup classes and not all the
time, but in a lot of scenariosit's a good opportunity to just
kind of throw in a little bit ofeducation about, especially
around movement as it is relatedto, like, body size and body
(11:55):
size change and things like that.
But definitely redirection isis uh, it's my go-to, because a
lot of times, like we're gettingready to start class and then
somebody comes in and is like Istarted the whole 30 or whatever
you know something, something,just out of nowhere, and it's
like, okay, let's turn thatmusic on and we're just going to
get started, people.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, I am sure that you dealwith this all the time and it's
a really good reminder that thisworks on a personal and
professional level.
Like this like maybe you'relike in your office in the break
room and somebody startstalking about diet or bodies or
whatever.
Like maybe you're a teacher,it's like back to school time
(12:37):
and like the kids in your classare starting to talk about this
stuff.
Like maybe you're a personaltrainer.
Like there's just there's a lotof contexts where this stuff
Like um, maybe you're a personaltrainer.
Like there's just there's a lotof contexts where this works.
And PS, we have multipleepisodes all about strategies
for disrupting diet talk.
So, um, definitely like, goahead and listen to those
(13:00):
episodes to help you do thispart.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah Well, I will say like I've also talked to folks
that have listened to some ofthose episodes or maybe have
done their own work, kind ofoutside of listening to the
podcast, but other bodyliberation, anti-diet based work
and folks have shared with mestories, though of how they have
done this, like how they'vebeen in conversations with their
families or friends orcoworkers or whatever.
(13:24):
How they've been inconversations with their
families or friends or coworkersor whatever and they've been
able to be the person to kind ofchange the subject or to
redirect or whatever, and itjust it feels really cool to be
able to have conversations likethat with other people.
So also on that note too, likeif you're able to find other
folks to kind of to share yourwins, so to speak, is nice,
because we don't often get achance to have wins.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
It's not like we're sharing like oh, I lost 50
pounds weight loss win situation, it's like the opposite of that
so we have, if we have somesort of community and somewhere
in some way to to discuss thesetopics is very helpful for sure,
which you can always come andsend us a message on Instagram
and we will cheer you on forsure.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
We will.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Okay, action number three speak up when people say
derogatory things about fatness,about fat people.
Maybe that's jokes, maybethat's like outright malicious
stuff, but regardless, speak up.
One Like you.
(14:38):
Be the one to say somethinglike this is super, and this is
incredibly important, even ifthere are no fat people around
when it happens.
Right, because it perpetuatesharmful stereotypes and
misinformation.
If you wouldn't stay silentwhen you hear somebody say
something racist, don't staysilent when you hear something
say something racist.
Don't stay silent when you hearsomething somebody say
something fat phobic, it's, it'sthe.
(15:00):
The reason you wouldn't staysilent for one is exactly the
same reason why you shouldn'tstay silent for the other,
because these are both likeissues of systemic oppression,
and these comments uphold that.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I like to think of it like how you said even if
somebody in a bigger body is notin the room and somebody's
making like snide comments, likeimagine that somebody is,
imagine that your friend whomight be in a bigger body is
there like would you wantsomebody to say something like
that in front of your friend?
No, you would not want that tohappen.
So like, if it helps to kind ofimagine something like, that
(15:36):
helps me a lot.
Like if I'm in situations whereit's maybe straight size,
smaller people all in a room,maybe somebody makes a joke or
something like that, to be like,oh my god, if they said that in
front of so-and-so, I would, Iwould be livid, so right yes,
and that's the thing is, like Idon't care if I'm one-on-one
with somebody like no, likethat's not okay.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
I'm gonna say something, and there's a lot of
ways to handle that too.
Again, like, feel free to checkout our past episodes.
One technique that I've reallythat I've seen a lot online
lately that I really really likeis asking them to explain why,
like for a joke, for instance,to explain why it's funny.
Right, it's not something I'veever thought about, but it makes
(16:26):
so much sense because, like,having to like put into words
why this like horribly offensivejoke is funny is going to like
trip them up, especially because, again, like maybe this is
naive, but I actually don'tthink it is.
I even people who are makingjokes like this I don't think
(16:49):
are doing it to intentionally bemalicious.
Like I don't think theyunderstand the systemic
oppression part of this, thebias, the discrimination, like I
think there's a lot of layersthat they don't understand about
it and I think sometimes don'teven really understand how
harmful the joke is.
(17:11):
But then you go to make themexplain it and like that's going
to be really uncomfortable andit's going to make them realize
how offensive it is too yeah,that's a really neat technique
because it's almost like a.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
It turns it back on the other person and kind of
makes them start to consider ohwhy am I saying this?
Am I just repeating it becausesomebody else said it, like
whatever.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, and it's like it's not quite as
confrontational as being likedon't say that, which is fine,
like I'm also fine with don'tsay that, but like it can also,
just like you can kind of playdumb a little, you can be like I
don't get that.
Can you explain it to me?
Like why is that funny?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
like you can kind of play dumb a little you can be
like I don't get that.
Can you explain it to me?
Like why is that funny?
I like this.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
I'm like jotting notes right now.
I think that's a greattechnique, as always, I love
options that like take intoaccount people's abilities and
preferences and communicationstyles and stuff like that, and
so like, yeah, that was one thatI really enjoyed.
Action number four send emailsto people like to both tell them
(18:21):
if their spaces are notinclusive and also thank you
emails when they do provideparticularly inclusive spaces
amen, amen.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Like we love a good complaint letter, we love a good
negative comment card, but wealso love a positive.
Like we never it just ingeneral.
We is like the universal wenever did.
I say universal we.
We never get like publiccompliments, like Google reviews
or Yelp reviews or whatever.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Like heck yes, I love that Totally, that totally.
It's so funny.
I've been sending emails aboutlike lack of inclusivity for
years, but I actually neverthought to send positive
feedback about inclusivity untila friend mentioned it like a
couple weeks ago, that she doesthat and I was like, oh, like I
love that like we've learned foryears that positive
(19:14):
reinforcement is more productivethan negative, so like, let's
keep reinforcing the good.
Totally.
You know.
I also like I put this actionitem on here as send emails.
What it really is is givefeedback.
Personally, I like doing thisin email format because I am
pretty conflict avoidant andanxious, so like saying
(19:37):
something in person doeshorrible things to like my
adrenaline and my nervous system, like I'll be sweating for days
.
My heart rate will not likereturn to normal for a week,
like it's bad.
But an email is so easy, likeeverywhere has contact forms
online, like so it's not evenlike you have to have a person
(19:59):
to contact.
If you do, that's great,because that's probably going to
get eyes better than justthrough a contact form.
But even a contact form is likesomething right.
The other thing is I personallylike to phrase this as like I
know that you want to serve asmany people as possible.
I know that you want to fosteran inclusive environment.
(20:20):
I know that you want to do this, so here's a way that you could
be doing that more, so thatlike it kind of assumes positive
intention rather than just likecriticizing.
Yeah, I like that, and like I, Ilike that and like, I feel like
people I don't know I feel likepeople respond better, if
you're like, assuming positiveintent on their end like and
(20:44):
like because what are they gonnasay?
Like oh no, actually I don't, Idon't care about inclusivity.
Like that's not nobody, likepeople are gonna feel weird
saying that.
I think a lot of this is justmake people feel weird.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
So they do what you want.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
But not really Very bad consent stuff.
It's not that and yeah, it'struly.
It's not about manipulatingpeople, but it is about doing
things in a way where people aregoing to be more open to
(21:22):
hearing what you're saying, toaccepting the feedback that
you're giving, and so, startingat a place where you're assuming
positive intent is helpful, itlike couches it in a positive
light instead of just likecriticism which people can like
just shut down.
Yeah for sure.
Um, action five decline beingweighed at the doctor unless
(21:46):
it's absolutely necessary.
Um, we've talked about this amillion times.
We've done entire episodesabout like medical stuff.
Definitely go check out out theReagan Chastain episode for
like how to go about dealingwith this stuff.
In a perfect world, it wouldn'tmatter if we got weight or not.
Like weight could just be likea neutral piece of data that was
(22:09):
collected but didn't impactanything.
But that's not the case.
Weight is treated like thedeciding factor in how most
people are medically treated,which literally has life and
death impact, mostly for folksin larger bodies, primarily for
folks in larger bodies, buthonestly for all of us in some
(22:30):
way or another.
So the more we can push backagainst the idea that weight is
a relevant measurement thatneeds to be taken at every
medical encounter, the betterthat's going to be for everyone.
Which means, even if youpersonally are totally okay with
seeing or knowing your weight,which is great, good for you.
(22:52):
Again, like, ideally, thatwould be a neutral thing that
we'd all be fine with, even ifyou're in a straight sized body
and it's very unlikely that yourdoctor is going to make
criticisms or, you know,misdiagnose or you know
recommend weight loss as asolution.
(23:13):
Like, even if all of that istrue, you're doing something
good by declining to be weight,because it sends a message, it
disrupts the status quo and whenstraight-sized folks do it, it
also, again, unfortunately, cancarry more weight.
No pun intended, but becauseit's not going to be dismissed.
(23:38):
The same way that it might bedismissed if somebody in a
larger body declines to beweighed, where, like, that can
be written off as like, oh, thatperson feels ashamed of their
weight, that person is emotional, that person is irrational,
that person is self-destructive,like, whatever.
It's just it's not going to beframed that way when a person in
(23:59):
a smaller body declines to beweighed.
So it just it's a good thing todo as a practice when, again,
when it's not medicallynecessary, which sometimes it is
Okay.
Action six shop at places thathave inclusive sizing, like,
obviously, folks in largerbodies don't really have a
(24:19):
choice about this one, butthat's what makes it such a
great act of allyship for folksin smaller bodies.
Like corporations don't dothings out of the goodness of
their hearts, they do things tomake money.
They do things to make money.
So if we all started shoppingonly at places with inclusive
sizing, there would be afinancial impact, yes, and there
(24:47):
would be like financialmotivation for these brands to
offer more inclusive sizing.
And just like I want to sayside note, but it's actually not
a side note, it is literallythe point of this action.
Item 3X is not all thatinclusive.
I feel like it's a bare minimum, like it's better than nothing,
but it leaves a lot of folksout, especially if sizing runs
(25:10):
small, which a lot of places do,yes, run small, which a lot of
places do yes, like I can wear a2x from some places, which
means that, like there are a lotof people who can't shop there
at all.
Nope, um and like, honestly,even in places where I wear a
like a 1x, which is like morestandard, that's still like a 3X
(25:34):
is just not enough of a range.
So, and especially because,like, the average size of like
is like a US 16, 18, which is a1X usually, sometimes a 1X is
like a 14, 16, again becausesizes are weird and sometimes
(25:54):
they run smaller or whatever,but the point is like that's
average and so if you only go upto a 3X, that's not a good size
range.
Yeah, um, but 3x, I feel like,is like a bare minimum yeah um,
but I hate when places are likewhere's clothing for all bodies?
(26:18):
we stop at a 3x and it's like no, you're not.
Like I've seen worse, but likethis is definitely not all
bodies.
Um, so yeah, like, even if youpersonally can shop anywhere if
you have the means, becausesometimes places with inclusive
sizing are more expensive notalways, but sometimes if you
(26:41):
have the means, put that moneyinto a place that has inclusive
sizing leads kind of directly toaction number seven, which is
support fat businesses, fatmedia, like fat everything.
Basically, you know, buy thingsfrom fat creators, watch tv and
movies with fat characters,especially fat leads, when you
(27:05):
can find them.
Read books with fat maincharacters.
Like, show them, jerry, my mylike 90s kid is coming out, but
so I want to jerry mcguire this.
Show them the money.
But like literally, like putthe money in the hands of fat
(27:25):
people.
And also show networks,production companies, like
publishers, like all of thesepeople, that there is money in
positive portrayals of fatcharacters.
Um, it's similar to like, youknow, the whole thing used to be
like oh, there's no money inmovies about women, there's no
(27:50):
money in women's sports, andlike, more and more, the public
proved that wrong, yep, and sonow we're getting more of those
things and this is the samething.
Okay, action number eight Don'tsit in the armless chairs.
I feel like an umbrella thinglike this is an example of like
(28:13):
a much bigger thing.
But so, specifically, armlesschairs, most places have very
limited seating for folks inlarger bodies.
Obviously, that's the largerlike systemic problem and that's
why what we talked aboutearlier, about like giving
feedback, sending emails, is soimportant.
But there's like the systemicside of things and the personal
(28:34):
side of things, and so this is apersonal action we can take to
make sure that those limitedseats are available for the
people who actually need them.
I don't know, at some point Idon't know, maybe a couple of
years ago I started to noticethat I'd go into usually in a
doctor's office, like waitingroom that there'd be like a
(28:54):
handful of chairs that were bigenough to accommodate larger
bodies, which great, and I wouldgo in and like 90% of the time,
there was some skinny personsitting in these chairs.
That sounds derogatory.
It was more just that, like inthe moment, I was like why
there's like an entire waitingroom of chairs that you could
(29:14):
easily comfortably sit in.
What was it that made youchoose the one chair that would
be accessible for somebody in alarger body, when you obviously
do not need that?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yeah, I feel like people are just oblivious, they
just don't think.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Well and.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
I can even think the last time we went to the
pediatrician's office causethere's even different size
chairs like the like kind of adouble chair, single chair,
armless chairs, arm chairs evenin the pediatrician's office,
and I remember my kid went andsat in like this bigger kind of
double chair, and he was like,oh, this is this one's more like
a couch I can lay down.
I was like no, let.
(29:51):
And he's like, oh, this is thisone's more like a couch I can
lay down.
I was like no, let's just comeover here and you sit in this
chair and I'll sit in this chairLike it's.
You know, I didn't get intodetails with him in the moment,
but I feel like as he gets olderand is more aware, like that's
a great opportunity to talk tomy child about this as we're
going into the doctor's office,because he like immediately was
drawn to this larger chair and Iwas like that's not for you,
son yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Um, first of all, I love that you did that and like,
yeah, like when you're, whenit's like a child, maybe that's
not like in the moment at thedoctor's office, like maybe
that's not the time to have thebig conversation, but like it
does it, you still handled it.
And like later you can have aconversation about it.
Like absolutely, I am listen.
(30:34):
I don't want to be like Iunderstand that.
Like we can't always see thereasons why people need
accommodations, like a need foran armless chair or a larger
chair outside of like body size,but that doesn't mean there
(30:56):
isn't one.
So like I'm not saying likedon't walk up to people in the
office and be like, get out ofthat chair.
You don't know what people are,what people are dealing with.
It's the same as like don'tharass people in.
Like you know disabled parkingspots.
Like because you don't know,you don't know why they're there
.
Like just don't do that.
But you personally can make achoice about not participating
(31:21):
in that behavior.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, well, I think that that also opens up the idea
and the conversation of beingmindful of accessibility needs
in general and public.
Like thinking about bathroomstalls and sink accessibility,
parking situations and even whenyou're going somewhere with
your friends.
Like not squishing three adults, large or small, like not
(31:44):
squishing adults together in aseat is going to be
uncomfortable, but also beingmindful of people's body sizes.
But even thinking about, likewhenever we're going on group
trips or we're going on hangoutswith people and we're
carpooling, considering, maybeasking our friends maybe we have
friends in bigger bodies, maybethey're more comfortable
driving their own vehicle, maybethey want to be the driver for
(32:06):
the other folks.
Or like offering the passengerseat to people instead of again
like just trying to make peopleuncomfortable in a vehicle that
they are not not comfortable in.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
This is kind of why I said itwas like the umbrella problem
from like a bigger conversation,because, yes, like it's
absolutely like, there's a lotof examples of the same dynamic
where it's like you can you canbe aware of the fact that other
bodies might need differentaccommodations.
(32:38):
Right, um, I love what youbrought up about parking like
that's the other, like when yougo to park, park in the center
of the parking spot so there isroom on either side.
Parking lots for folks in largerbodies can be really tricky and
not great anyway, because a lotof parking spots are very
(33:00):
narrow and the cars are closetogether.
But when people park stupidlyand carelessly and right on the
line, it makes it practicallyimpossible.
You're literally trappingpeople in their cars or just
making it so that there isn't aparking spot for them Because,
like they probably know, oh Ican't park in the spot next to
(33:21):
that person.
But like what if they'realready parked and you come and
park, you know, right up next tothem and now they can't get
into their car?
Like be mindful of this stuff.
Like it's honestly what itreally comes down to is just
being mindful of the ways thatthe world is not built for folks
in larger bodies and like beand and taking whatever actions
(33:44):
you can to minimize that.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I feel like this is our one and only opportunity to
capitalize on like a viral trend.
But we can be demure and we canbe mindful about our
surroundings.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Very demure, very mindful, not sitting in the
armless chairs.
Right Action nine builds righton top of this one, which is
thinking about your fat friend'scomfort when you go places
Seating, accessibility, sizing,things like that.
So like you be the one to tellthe host at the restaurant that
(34:20):
you want a table instead of abooth.
Like you call the theater tosee what the seat sizes are and
whether there's any accessibleseating.
You get online and see what thelayout and the seating at the
bar and the restaurant is likebefore suggesting it as a
hangout.
Like you make sure the storesyou're visiting on your shopping
day carry their sizes.
(34:40):
This one's a little tricky, butwhenever possible, make sure
the furniture in your house hasinclusive weight limits so they
don't have to worry about thatwhen they come visit.
That is very hard becauseweight limits on on affordable
furniture are not great and likeand furniture is super
expensive.
(35:01):
So like.
This one is like a when you can,when at least, at least keep it
in mind while you're shopping.
But like it's hard and like andlike.
That's just.
That is a systemic problem thatis not necessarily yours to
solve.
So it's just a do what you can,but ultimately, like fat folks
do so much labor to researchthis stuff before going places.
(35:25):
So like help them out, likeshare some of that burden, like
the fact that they are the onesmost impacted by this doesn't
mean that they should also carryall the labor of it.
And actually looking into thisstuff and planning for it and
taking it into consideration isgoing to show them that you see
(35:48):
them and you care about them and, like all of that stuff, that
they're not an afterthought andthat you understand some of
their lived experiences, andthat's huge.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Well, and this happens quite a bit also in my
personal training sessions andin group classes but being more
mindful of like words that I'mchoosing to say that feels more
comfortable for people.
Not only that, but likeequipment use, like when I'm
thinking of certain pieces ofequipment, some things just
aren't going to work for certainbodies, like barbell deadlifts,
(36:22):
for example.
Sometimes if people have abigger belly that maybe sticks
out more towards the front, itis not going to be that
comfortable for some body typesto do to conventional deadlifts
with a barbell.
Or maybe, like we need toreadjust somebody's stance or we
need to choose somethingdifferent, like dumbbells or
kettlebells or different thingslike that.
But definitely being moremindful of that in a fitness
(36:46):
scenario has been, like, very,very important for my work, for
sure, but not only that, likebeing considerate of equipment
and being an advocate for that,like whenever I know that the
gym is considering purchasingnew treadmills or bikes or
ellipticals or whatever.
Like reminding people likelet's check the weight
(37:08):
capacities of these thingsbecause we need to be able to
serve lots of different bodysizes on this equipment yeah,
that is huge and like honestlyit's so.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Like, on a personal note, it's something that I
continue to be very frustratedwith in the pilates world,
because it is just amazing howoften things are cued in a way
that like does not accommodatefor having a belly like at all
and like how often it's like,and it's cute in a way where
(37:39):
it's like it's not a suggestionand it's not like a there's no
alternative cuing or anythinglike that.
It's just like this veryspecific, like regimented way of
cuing things and it's like Iknow better.
So I still do what I need to dofor my body, but like there are
other people in this class whomight not know that, so yeah, ps
(38:01):
, uh, I can.
Lindsay, who is fat bodyPilates on Instagram, does
workshops like every few monthson, like making Pilates queuing
and like equipment modificationsfor fat bodies.
So like, if any Pilatesinstructors are listening to
(38:23):
this, definitely go follow her,definitely take those workshops
because it's a practice makingthose adjustments, and so like
having much like this episode,like having somebody to be like
okay, cause you might even.
Like your intent is there.
Like you want to create aninclusive environment but you
don't necessarily know what'sinclusive and not inclusive, or
(38:43):
like how to go about doing that.
So like, let somebody teach you.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, that's really importantand even I mean this applies
specifically to teaching afitness class scenario, but I
feel like it could be replicatedin other areas but like being
able to change the plan that youhave in your brain, like not
only in a fitness situation, butlike going out with friends or
(39:08):
choosing a different restaurantor whatever, like you may have a
set plan and once you get thereit might not be the right plan.
So being able to be flexiblebecause I know there was one
time I had a plan to use acouple of different balls, like
the big stability, like the bigyoga balls, and then even like
the smaller, like squishyPilates balls in a class and it
(39:30):
was not accessible for peopleand slash or it freaked people
out Like people were, even ifthey were maybe at the cusp of
the weight capacity of the ball.
They were like, fortunately,verbally told me they're like
I'm scared, I'm going to popthis ball and I'm like we can
change the plan.
But kind of being more mindfulof that on the front end can
(39:51):
save people like stress fromhaving to tell me that they're
that on the front end, can savepeople like stress from having
to tell me that they're afraidthat the ball may pop or
something like that, and thatmay, you know, be helpful for
other people in the class too.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Absolutely and like, on the one hand, like don't
assume people's abilities, buton the other hand, when like,
like if you can anticipate someof that stuff, so that they
don't have to say, like I'mafraid I'm going to pop this
ball, or like again, I'm afraidI'm going to break your couch,
(40:20):
or like something like that,that's nice.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
That's nice to do for people.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Yeah, having said that, that kind of brings us to
our action number 10, which isask your fat friends and family
what they need.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yes, just ask people.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Like it is.
It's actually okay, like I knowyou don't want the burden to be
on them to like educate you orand we do want to take the
burden off them to do theendless research and like all of
this stuff.
We do want to try andanticipate some of the stuff.
That's like more obvious, thatwe know, but like it's also okay
to say, hey, what do you needfrom me?
(41:00):
Like what can I do to make thiseasier for you, to make this
better for you, to support you,like that's a beautiful thing to
do for somebody.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
I think so too, and I love this.
One like this is my favoriteone of all of them, because I
feel like we tend to be afraidthat we're going to offend
somebody, that if we ask themwhat they need, but it's like
it's literally not offensive.
We have this fear that we'regoing to make somebody
uncomfortable and it's theopposite.
Like anytime I have ever donethis, it has literally been the
(41:31):
exact opposite of beingoffensive is made people feel
more comfortable, more heard,more respected.
It's.
It's been a great situationevery time.
So just just ask people.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah, totally.
I agree, like on the whenpeople have asked me what I need
for things, it's like I'mterrible at answering, but I
also like feel very cared forand, like you know, and again
like respected, heard all ofthat scene, all of that stuff,
and it's like that's, that'sreally nice and it's also just
(42:03):
like, again, it's just like anacknowledgement of live, of
their lived experience.
It's just like letting themknow that you know that like
shit is hard.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Right, like, and that you are, like, willing and able
to share that burden with themor, like you know, share some of
the work of making things lesshard.
Yeah, that's, that's a big dealfor people.
So, yeah, like, that's finallylike actually talk to and
communicate with your friendsand family.
(42:38):
A million other things thatcould go on this list but, again
, I like a nice round number.
But if you listen to this, ifyou are in a larger body and
there are other things that youwish that your friends, your
(43:00):
family that, like people insmaller bodies would do to like,
help, support you, to act inallyship, send us a message, let
us know.
We will share it on instagram.
And, like you know, let peopleknow.
If you are a person in asmaller body who does things to
support and act on the allyshipthat's not on this list, send a
(43:23):
message, let us know.
We will share it on instagram.
Like, I would love for peopleto have more resources of like
where to start and what to dowith this stuff.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Awesome.
Well, Naomi, what's satisfyingfor you right now?
Speaker 1 (43:37):
This is so ridiculous .
But here's what's satisfying meright now Calvin Klein came out
with their 2024 campaign andit's Jeremy Allen White again,
and I just I'm very happy, I'mvery happy about it.
There's even a dog in some ofthe pictures, and it's just.
I just I'm very happy, I'm veryhappy.
There's even a dog in some ofthe pictures, and it's just.
I mean, is there anythingbetter?
(43:58):
Like no, I'm.
This is my summer made.
It's good.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
That's a.
That's a pretty good one rightthere.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
What is satisfying for you right now.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Recently I had a birthday and my mom got me a
very exciting birthday present.
She got me, like one of thesemassive tubs of cookie dough
from Sam's Club for part of mybirthday present and I'm like
what?
That's the perfect birthdaypresent for me.
And I can eat some of thecookie dough and I can make some
cookies and they just keep oncoming.
(44:30):
So that has been a verysatisfying gift for me.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
First of all, I was totally.
My first question was going tobe whether you bake the cookies
or eat the cookie dough.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
So I love that you do .
Speaker 1 (44:40):
My second question is what kind of cookie dough?
Oh?
Speaker 2 (44:43):
chocolate chip like just good old fashioned chip.
Pillsbury chocolate chip cookiedough.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Awesome.
I love that.
That is a really good birthdaygift.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
It is.
It is a very good gift.
The gift that keeps on givinguntil we run out of cookie dough
.
Right, but then you can getmore and it's fine.
Well, if you enjoyed thisepisode, be sure to leave us a
rating and review on Applepodcasts or Spotify.
Those ratings and reviews helpus reach more people and it just
helps get the anti-diet messageout into the world.
(45:13):
We are also on Instagram atsatisfaction factor pod.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
That's it for us this week.
We'll catch you next time.
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