September 18, 2024 • 53 mins
Have you ever been told that losing weight is the key to relieving joint pain? Prepare to challenge that belief as we explore the complex relationship between joint pain, weight, and overall health with Dr. Lisa Folden!
Dr. Lisa N. Folden is a North Carolina licensed physical therapist, NASM certified behavior change specialist and Anti-diet Health & Body Image Coach. She owns Healthy Phit Physical Therapy & Wellness Consultants in Charlotte, NC where she provides trauma-informed and weight-inclusive care to clients in diverse bodies and those in eating disorder recovery.
As a health at every size (HAES®️) ambassador and movement expert, Dr. Folden assists clients seeking healthier lifestyles. Her weight-neutral approach encourages intuitive eating, joyful movement, body acceptance and breaking up with toxic diet culture.
Dr. Lisa is a mom of three, published author and speaker whose goal is to see as many people as possible living their best lives without worrying about their weight!
In this episode, we're chatting about:
- the misconceptions surrounding body size and health
- the importance of self-compassion, and the impact of anti-diet work far beyond food and exercise
- the significant roles of age, activity levels, strength, flexibility, injuries, posture, and lifestyle changes in managing pain
- the myth that weight is the primary cause of joint discomfort, and how bones and joints are designed to handle progressive loads, even for those who have always lived in larger bodies
- the pervasive anti-fat bias in the medical and fitness industries, where weight gain is often lazily cited as the root cause of various health issues
- the importance of a more compassionate and comprehensive approach to health.
You can connect with Dr. Lisa and learn how to work with her on Instagram @healthyphit, on Facebook, on Pinterest, or at her website. And be sure to check out her 30-day Body Respect Journal!
Stay in touch with the pod on IG @satisfactionfactorpod!
And here's where you can continue to find us:
Sadie Simpson: www.sadiesimpson.com or IG @sadiemsimpson
Naomi Katz: www.happyshapes.co or IG @happyshapesnaomi
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Satisfaction Factor, the podcast
where we explore how ditchingdiet culture makes our whole
lives more satisfying.
Welcome back to SatisfactionFactor.
I'm Naomi Katz, an intuitiveeating and body image coach.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm Sadie Simpson, a intuitive eating and body image
coach.
I'm Sadie Simpson, a groupfitness instructor and personal
trainer.
Before we dig into this week'sepisode, just a reminder.
If you would like to supportthe show, we have merch.
We have a handful of designswe'll keep public that can be
printed as stickers, t-shirts,sweatshirts, mugs, tote bags and
whatever else you like.
T-shirts and sweatshirts comeinto sizes up to 5X and you can
check that out at the link inour show notes.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Also just a reminder that if you're looking for some
support in your intuitive eatingand anti-diet work, I've got
availability for all of mycoaching options.
I've got spots available forone-on-one intuitive eating and
anti-diet coaching.
I have spots available for myindividual pay what you can
calls mindset reset calls, andthe wait list is also open for
(01:11):
the next cohort of my groupcoaching program, Nourish and
Bloom, and you can get all ofthe information about all of
those options on my website,happyshapesco.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Today we're talking to Dr Lisa Folden about
weight-neutral approaches tojoint pain, mobility and other
physical health issues.
Dr Lisa Ann Folden is a NorthCarolina licensed physical
therapist, nasm certifiedbehavior change specialist and
anti-diet, health and body imagecoach.
She owns Healthy Fit PhysicalTherapy and Wellness Consultants
(01:43):
in Charlotte, north Carolina,where she provides
trauma-informed andweight-inclusive care to clients
in diverse bodies and those ineating disorder recovery.
As a health-at-every-sizeambassador and movement expert,
dr Fulton assists clientsseeking healthier lifestyles.
Her weight-neutral approachencourages intuitive eating,
joyful movement, body acceptanceand breaking up with toxic diet
(02:06):
culture.
Dr Lisa is a mom of three,published author and speaker
whose goal is to see as manypeople as possible living their
best lives without worryingabout their weight.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
And we are so excited to talk to Lisa, because this
is a topic that we've beenwanting to cover for the entire
time that we've been doing thispodcast, which is three years
now, and Lisa is specificallywho we've wanted to invite to
talk with us about it.
And we got it in just in time,because our next episode, on
(02:40):
October 2nd, will be both our100th episode and our last
episode.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Ah, cue like the sound effect music here.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
We have a lot of thoughts and feelings about this
and we are going to be sharingall of them with you then, so be
sure to tune in on October 2ndfor our 100th episode, our third
anniversary and our goodbyeepisode.
But for now, let's talk to Lisa.
Welcome, lisa.
Thank you so much for beinghere with us today.
We are so excited to be gettingto talk to you.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Thank you for having me.
I'm very excited to have thisconversation also.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
We are somewhat local , like we're all in North
Carolina and we have beenwanting to invite you on the pod
for a while, so we're like veryexcited that you're finally
here.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Same same same.
What part of North Carolina arey'all in?
We're in Asheville.
Okay, that's right.
I remember that I loveAsheville.
Yeah, so not too far yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Not too far at all.
Okay, so we're going to startwith the first question that we
ask everybody.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your experience with diet
culture and maybe how that's ledyou to the work that you do
today?
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Yeah, it's a loaded question, but absolutely, diet
culture was like my whole lifeand it was, I would say,
primarily self-inflicted.
I did not have a mother thatgrew up like you know, body
checking and doing a whole lotof that.
So that was nice.
But my dad was a fitnesscompetitor and I didn't live
(04:17):
with him.
But you know, he was veryinfluential in my life.
I just I looked up to him, Iput him on a pedestal and he was
Mr Michigan in 1989 for thelightweight division, so oh, wow
, and so I watched him work outand when I got into high school
and I got into sports, he wouldhave me come to the gym and I
would work out after working outat school and I would see, you
(04:39):
know, all of these people withthese, you know muscles or
really tone, tight, thin bodies,and that was just my perception
of health.
That is what I thought healthwas, and the irony in that is
becoming an adult andrecognizing that all of the
things that my dad was doing inhis fitness competitor life was
like absolutely disordered and Imean severe, under eating,
(05:04):
working out hours a day and then, when competition season was
over, just binging like crazy.
So, um, but I back then that'swhat I pictured to be health,
and so, um, I I'm always a veryshort statured woman and I just
wanted to be small, like I justbelieve that my body getting big
(05:24):
was bad, and so I probablystarted dieting as early as 14.
And everything, all the thingsover the course of my life.
It wasn't until I was about 37.
And I'm only 43.
I was 37 when I finally stopped, but I think the culminating
moment of it all was afterhaving my third child and I was
(05:48):
done breastfeeding him and Istarted gaining weight and I was
like Whoa we can't do this.
How dare we gain weight?
I went into overdrive and sothis is sort of the beginning of
, like, my really reallydisordered behaviors I would say
, exercising daily and severelyunder eating, all of those
things and I just got to a pointwhere I couldn't hold on Like I
(06:11):
didn't know left from right.
My mind was consumed withthoughts of food and movement
all day long and I wasoverwhelmed and I really, you
know I know not everyonebelieves in God or higher power,
but I really feel like Godconspired with the universe to
plant a book in my face and itwas health at every size,
(06:32):
because I never searched forthis.
I certainly didn't search forit in this moment.
To this day, I can't reallyrecall how I stumbled upon it.
My Instagram feed was not thatof anti-diet or body neutral or
anti-fetal.
It wasn't.
So I don't know how it happened, but it came to me and I read
that book and, for someone who'svery into science and research,
(06:55):
reading about it, I don't lovedoing it, but it was mind
blowing to understand finally,to have a, to have the, the
vocabulary to explain what mybody had been doing to me my
whole life, or what I had beendoing to my body my whole life,
and having the language and andunderstanding the science behind
(07:18):
it blew my mind.
And once I had that knowledge,it was like I can't keep living
like this.
So I, I mean, I took a hardleft down from diet culture lane
(07:42):
and I just started reading andlearning and listening to
podcasts and connecting withpeople in this community.
And then I had to change the waythat I approached my work.
Because of a physical therapist, I was very you know, very
traditionally trained and againassociated weight with worsening
health, weight with joint pain,weight, all these things.
(08:04):
And so I had to shift from thatand begin teaching my clients
in a new way and coaching myclients in a new way, and it was
so affirming and so freeing.
It's like the weight is justlifted off your shoulders this
idea that you have to ascribe tothese these rules and these
(08:26):
principles, and you must do thisand this and this, and then,
when it doesn't work well, youmust've done something wrong, so
do it again.
So letting go of that, it wasjust.
It completely changed my lifeand I couldn't practice in the
same way anymore.
You know, being a part of thehealth and wellness world.
So that's the condensed butstill long version, part of the
health and wellness world.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
So that's the convinced but still long version
.
Yeah, no, I mean, I love thatstory.
It's so.
I love hearing people's storiesof how they come to this stuff.
It's always it's amazing to mehow our stories overlap on this,
like everybody's storiesoverlap on this, and what's so
funny is people are always likeI have no idea how I came across
(09:08):
this, it just showed up when Ineeded it and like and I just
love that.
And then it just clicks becauseit's so representative of your
personal experience A lot oftimes of what you're seeing with
your clients but can't explain,of times of what you're seeing
with your clients but can'texplain, and it just like opens
up this whole world and like,and also just like, takes this
(09:29):
huge weight off your shouldersof like, so much self blame, so
much beating yourself up on apersonal level, on a
professional level, and thenit's like oh no, this is
actually just how things aresupposed to be actually just how
things are supposed to be.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yeah, yeah, go figure right.
And it played into other areasof life.
You know, always like aimingfor perfection, um, seeing, you
know, and I always caveat thiswith you know, no one is saying
hard work isn't, you know, greatthing for achieving certain
goals, but I overemphasized,like the self um, the, the, the
(10:11):
role that you play in in yourhealth and in everything.
And so, for me, controlling mylife and making it go the way I
believed it should go was aboutbeing perfect and doing all the
things right.
I was a very good dieter.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Let me just put that out there.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Okay, I was good at it because there was a time in
my life when I could follow therules to a T.
But then I looked in other,like I was a very good student
as well.
I was a very good employee, youknow, because I I believed in
the value of hard work, and Istill do to an extent.
But but I let it drive me tothis idea of perfectionism.
(10:48):
If you can just work hardenough, you can change and do
anything in your life, and thatis what I believed about my body
for so long.
Like you can beat this bodyinto submission and make it
exactly how you want it to be,and recognizing like no, you
can't Right, right, and eventrying is so harmful to yourself
(11:09):
.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah Well, I mean even the language there, like
beat this body into submission.
That sounds terrible, it'sawful.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
It's awful, but in the fitness world mainstream
fitness culture that is thelanguage that you know we use.
Beat myself into submission,suck it up, no pain, no gain,
like what.
But that's how I grew up andwhat I thought was, you know,
(11:39):
the road to good health andrecognizing that it was not even
good health for my body, but itwas like even worse for my
mental and emotional health.
That was the part where it waslike, oh, I've been neglecting.
You know two thirds of who I amRight.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
My body look a certain way so, and then you can
start blaming yourself for thattoo.
So you have to kind of let go.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
But yeah, that that's a huge thing, like so many, so
often, when people get to thatpoint, when they do have that
like aha moment of like, oh, Iactually can't hard work and
control my way out of geneticsand social determinants of
health and like structural andsystemic issues and stuff like
(12:27):
that.
Like you have that aha momentand then you go oh my God, what
have I been doing with my life?
And there's this other, and solike it's just, it's just this
ability to like, access,compassion for yourself, all
around, that's the key.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
That is the key.
If I had a dollar, for how manytimes I said compassion in a
session, you know, in sessionswith clients, because that's all
it is.
It's giving ourselves acompassion we give other people
every single day, like everysingle day we're nicer to other
people than we are to ourselvesand it's a shame and so, yeah,
that's my whole goal now like tobe kind to myself.
(13:06):
And it shows up in letting goof diets and letting go of you
know all the toxic messages weget from from that industry.
But even things like justgiving myself a pass, like I, I
would never I used to nevercancel a thing.
I said I was going to a thing,my word is my bond, I am at the
thing or we are doing the thing.
(13:27):
But this past two years, justbeing able to say, you know what
, when I scheduled this, Ithought it was going to work and
I feel awful today, orsomething's off or I just need a
day, or I just need a minuteand it's.
It's been so beautiful to seethe response that people give
you like okay, absolutely, Iunderstand and you're like yeah
(13:54):
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
I have never that was a huge learning curve for me
too, and, like when I starteddoing that, I have never had
anybody give me a hard timeabout canceling something like,
and that has blown my mind.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
So silly how we do that to ourselves.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Absolutely.
But it's so interesting howlike, ultimately it's all just
perfectionism, like the, thedieting, the, like the, the
health stuff, the um, like allof that, like controlling and
everything, and ultimatelythat's.
There's no way that's onlygoing to show up in relation to
(14:31):
food and our body.
It's going to show up in allkinds of places in our lives.
And so there's like such alarger path here to like
deconstructing perfectionism,when we start to let go of it
around food and bodies, likedeconstructing perfectionism
when we start to let go of itaround food and bodies.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Oh gosh, you are just , like I don't know, bringing up
too many things, because whatI'm finding is it's in every
part of my life yeah, every partand you know, not something
that I've talked about publiclyvery much, but I'm in the
process of going through adivorce and that whole process
is bringing up so many of thesame things that came up as I as
(15:09):
I divorced diet, culture likeletting go of these ideas of
what your life is supposed tolook like and what you're
supposed to look like and whatyour family is supposed to look
like.
And, oh my God, it's kicking mywhole butt.
I mean, I'm still in the thickof it, obviously, but it's just
been astonishing to see theparallels in different aspects
(15:32):
of my life.
But you're right, it comes, itcomes around in in so many other
issues and relationships andareas of life.
For sure, and it'sperfectionism is a big part of
it, so yeah, thank you forsharing that with us.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
And like, and yeah, I mean that's something I see,
I've seen in my life, I've seenin with clients is that like our
relationships, like how we showup in our relationships and how
we offer ourselves compassionin different areas of our lives,
how we handle transition, andlike all of that stuff is just
(16:08):
so heavily impacted by all ofthis?
Yeah, it really is.
I love that you already haveall of these self-compassion
tools to offer yourself rightnow.
That's so nice.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I need them trust me.
Yeah, for sure, A lot happening, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Absolutely Well, just to sort of transition the topic
a little bit works from thishealth at every size, weight
neutral, weight inclusiveperspective for health overall,
(16:48):
but also specifically forphysical therapy things, you
know, joint pain, mobility,flexibility, physical wellness
in general and I'd love to talka little bit more about that,
because so often the likecontrolling narrative,
especially around joint pain, isoh, you have joint pain, well,
(17:10):
you should lose weight, right,and I think that's something
that's really really hard forpeople to let go of.
Oh yeah.
So I'm kind of curious like,first of all, is that true?
Do we actually need to loseweight in order to improve our
joint pain, our mobility, all ofthat stuff?
Speaker 3 (17:48):
the science, people listening.
The science behind bonebuilding, bone strengthening is
that our bones respond to theprogressive load that they
receive, and that is why we havepeople doing strength training
where they're loading theirbodies with weights or doing
body weight exercises.
That weight bearing through thebones specifically we're
talking about the lowerextremity bones and joints is
(18:08):
actually helpful to buildingstrong bones, and so this
concept, especially when we'retalking about people who have
always lived in larger or fatbodies their bones are made for
them, are made for them.
(18:30):
So this idea that your jointpain is heavily impacted by the
size and weight of your body isit's just a flawed concept, and
I'm not saying that there'snever an instance where your
weight can can impact yourjoints.
Of course and I see this morewhen people gain a large amount
of weight in a very short windowof time, which is usually when
someone is on some sort ofmedication that makes them like
really shift bodies, like reallyquickly, right, that can have
(18:52):
an impact, because it's not theprogressive load of normal
weight gain, right that yourjoints have the opportunity to
adjust to.
So that would be like anexample of where it might be a
direct correlation impact orcausative impact is what I'll
say.
What most people experience isthat correlation right?
(19:13):
They're like when I was youngerand I was thinner, I didn't
have joint pain.
Now that I'm older and I'mheavier, I have joint pain.
It's the weight and I get that.
I get why you see it that way,but I just want people to think
a little deeper, because yousaid two things.
Two things Right, right, older,yeah, so.
(19:35):
Is it the weight?
Or is it age related changes?
Hello, because that is just thenature of our bodies we age the
nature of our bodies.
We age, things get older andsome things are, are less
competent than they are in ouryouth.
Such is life, right, yeah?
Or?
And?
(19:56):
Or.
Because more than one or two orthree or five things can be
true.
Is it the changes that yourlifestyle has sustained over the
course of time?
Right, and people naturallyassociate that.
Well, the weight change?
Well, yes, and that will change.
But did your activity levelchange, right?
(20:17):
Has your strength changed?
Has your flexibility changedover the course of all these
years?
Did you incur any injuries inthis joint?
You know what I mean.
Has your posture changed?
All of these things impact ourjoint health, and so when we
just narrow in and decide it'sjust the weight, we're really
(20:37):
doing our bodies a disservice,because we're not looking at the
whole picture.
And you can find a correlation,I think, the one that comes up
all the time, I think is it baldmen and lung cancer?
That?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
could be wrong, but yeah, no, it's something like
that, but this correlation.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
So many bald men they have.
So many bald men have a higheroccurrence of lung cancer and
literally we know from sciencethe baldness and the cancer have
nothing to do with each other.
They're just correlated.
Just happens to be that way forother factors outside of those
two things.
And so when we're talking aboutweight and joint pain, a lot of
(21:14):
times people just pull thosetwo entities out and be like,
well, you cause this and that'snot what's happening.
There can be correlationsbecause, yes, if you go from
being a very active person tobeing way more inactive, if you
have an injury and find that youcan't do the things you used to
do, if you are expending lessenergy than you used to, and add
(21:35):
in just aging, hormonal changes, all that stuff, it's very
likely that you will gain weight.
But that doesn't mean theweight is causing the pain in
the joints.
What is likely causing the painin the joints are the
degenerative changes.
We know that is directly causalto joint pain and a lack of
strength and flexibility thatyou're experiencing the joint
because of the lack of activityor whatever, and hydration and
(22:00):
supplementation, all the things.
There's so many factors thatdirectly impact the joint pain.
Um, and weight is notnecessarily one of them.
So that's one of the myths Ilike busting for people, because
people come in with a lot ofself blame around joint pain and
our medical system is so unkindto people in larger bodies and
I mean I have clients right nowthat they their joints are done
(22:23):
from life not from anything todo like, just from life and they
need to have a jointreplacement surgery and they're
denied because they're too large, their BMI is too high, which
is a whole thing.
It's a whole thing.
Advocacy is so important andthat's, you know, for me, the
work that I do is so importantbecause I have to show these if
I can't get them the surgerywhich you know we try but I have
(22:45):
to show them so much compassionand help them be more
compassionate to themselves,because they take on the blame
of like, well, this is my faultIf I had just figured out how to
lose weight or figure out howto stay small and it's like this
is not your fault.
This is something that youdon't deserve to just happen to
happen, like so many otherhorrible, annoying, upsetting
things in life.
You didn't do this to yourself.
(23:08):
Other horrible, annoying,upsetting things in life.
You didn't do this to yourself.
So taking that blame away ishuge because our medical system
puts it, puts it on us.
So we need to know we didn't dothis ourselves.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
You said so many things that Iloved there and so I just want
to backtrack to like a couple ofparts of that.
So, first of all, I loved whatyou said about the kind of
progressive load, and I want tokind of talk about that a little
bit more, because I thinkwhat's really really interesting
and I think this is somethingthat is honestly going to like
(23:38):
blow people's minds when theythink about it, because we don't
think about it this way butlike, like why wouldn't you know
we don't talk about the harmsof progressive overload in
squatting or something like that?
Like that's fine, definitely dothat, but but you definitely
(24:01):
can't just have body weight thatdoes that.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
That's, that's bad.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Right and like when you put it in that perspective,
it's like why?
Why do you think that your bodycan adapt to one of these
things and not the other?
Like why is one of these thingsokay and the other is your
fault?
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Yeah, because the pathology of of weight and body
size is a lucrative business.
So if we can make peoplebelieve that they are the cause
of their problems and fatness isa problem, then we can get
money for fixing the problem.
And that's what it is.
I mean, that's all it is,unfortunately, and it's lazy
(24:44):
medicine.
That's what I call lazymedicine.
It's like I'm not going to digto figure anything else out, I'm
just going to see it's anti-fatbias, that's what it is.
I'm going to see this person inthis large body and make
assumptions about what they do,what they eat, how they live and
I'm going to say if you justworked out more and ate a little
less, change your diet up andlose some weight, you probably
(25:05):
won't experience that painanymore.
Change your diet up and losesome weight, you probably won't
experience that pain anymore.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, and and even though the science doesn't
support it at all the researchdoesn't support it at all we
just, it's a low-hanging fruit,it's just, it's the easy grab so
, and it's also so interestingbecause it's like it's
counterintuitive too, becausepart of that prescription for
weight loss is probably going tobe exercise, which probably is
(25:30):
going to include some kind ofstrength training and
progressive overload.
And so it's just so interestingthat, like, you're basically
prescribing for somebody to dosomething that their body is
actually already doing andhaving trouble with and like
needing some support with anyway.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yep, absolutely.
It literally makes no sensewhen you think about it that way
.
There's no rhyme or reason toit.
Because if that were the case,we would tell people, especially
we would tell everyone in a fator large body don't lift
weights, because more weight onyour joints is just going to
make that joint pain worse.
We don't do that.
We encourage them to liftweights and also to overdo
(26:09):
cardio, but we encourage that wedon't tell them like, oh no,
that added weight is going toblow your knees out, because,
one, it's not and two, becausethat's not how our bodies work.
Our bodies literally adjust tothe load that they are given,
and that is especially true whenwe're talking about, you know,
(26:29):
strength training, building upour bones, building up our
muscles.
So, yeah, it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
It does not translate , and I think sometimes people
just need to hear it out loud tobe like oh, I mean, I needed to
hear that out loud Because assomebody that works in fitness,
like personal training, teaching, group exercise this comes up
all the time and to have thislanguage of progressive overload
(26:55):
of your body, like buildingthis progressive strength more
or less over time.
Like I'm literally just goingto send everybody to listen to
this podcast episode becausethis like puts into words a lot
of conversations that I havethat I felt like I've just kind
of muddled my way through thismakes so much sense to me.
(27:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Absolutely and I also liked the framing of like that.
There are some exceptions likethat.
There is occasionally aninstance where you do see, like
rapid weight gain, where yourbody has it doesn't have the the
time to adapt the way, the wayit needs to.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
But I also.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
I also like your framing of it is like rapid and
unusual, usually from amedication Cause.
I think a lot of times peopleare will be like, oh well, I've
put on X amount of weight overthe past year and it's like,
yeah, but like that'sessentially progressive overload
.
You didn't just like snap yourfingers and add a bunch of
(28:00):
weight to your body.
You've gradually been adding itover the year, which means your
body is adapting to it asyou're adding it.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Absolutely.
That's very different than Istarted this steroid, steroidal
medication for this conditionthat I have, and in a week I was
up 20 pounds.
You know that's very differentthan than gaining the weight
over the course of a year or sixmonths or whatever.
So, yeah, I do think those aresituations, and then, you know,
a lot of times that's fluid andfluid impacts us in different
(28:29):
ways as well.
So so, yeah, there are somedefinite considerations for
changing in body size anddealing with pain in our joints,
but it's, it's just not the oldschool lazy medicine thought
process that you got fat and nowyour joints hurt, so fix it
Like that's just.
It's just dumb, it's and it'snot, it's not right.
That's really just the bottomline.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Absolutely, and then I also really appreciate the
like, the perspective ofmultiple things are often
happening at the same time.
And like weight gain may be asymptom of the thing that is
also causing the joint pain orthe change in mobility or things
(29:11):
like that, and so, like it'seasy to say well, both of these
things happened at the same time, so the weight gain is the
reason.
But like that, it's soimportant to to kind of look at
the bigger picture of like no,what else is happening that
could possibly have led to bothof these things?
Like that's a conversation Ihave with clients all the time
(29:36):
about like well, I felt better,Like my body felt better, I was
able to move better, like when Iwas in a smaller body, and it's
like, okay, but what else haschanged since you put on the
weight?
Like what?
Else have you?
What in your lifestyle haschanged, Like that could also be
making things not feel so good.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Yeah, that's, and I have that conversation.
Sometimes it's on social mediawhen I talk about.
Like you know, you didn't causeyour joint pain by gaining
weight and losing weight won'tnecessarily change it.
And people are like, well, Ifelt so much better when I lost
weight and I'm like, okay,that's really good for you, I'm
so glad you feel better.
But maybe maybe it was theweight.
In your case I don't live inyour body and I trust that you
(30:14):
are the expert of that and I'mnot but maybe it was the changes
in the nutritional intake, likemaybe you were eating more
nutritionally dense foods, ormaybe you were drinking a lot
more water, or maybe you weretaking some really good
supplements for your bones, ormaybe you were moving more,
maybe you were stretching more,maybe you were doing more
functional tasks like thosethings aid in the lessening of
(30:39):
joint pain far more thanchanging your body size.
So having that conversation onthe other end but also I like to
remind people that if weight,body size, fat composition
whatever you want to say is theculprit for joint pain, why are
there thin people with jointpain?
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Always.
There's nothing that only fatpeople deal with, except for,
like anti-fat bias, obviously.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
Exactly Just weight-based discrimination,
Absolutely.
Why is?
Why are there thin people withjoint pain and why are there
larger body people who don'thave joint pain?
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Right.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Yeah, yeah.
If we can't explain that, thenlike, yeah, that's the whole
basis of the conversation.
And so when I am trying to, youknow, help my clients advocate
for themselves, I often say youknow, if you're going to the
doctor for joint pain and youhappen to exist in a larger body
, just just preemptively tellyour doctor, or wait till after
(31:40):
they make their recommendations,but tell them I would like some
treatment options that youwould give a person in a smaller
body.
What would you say if I weighed100 pounds less or whatever?
What would you say if I was ina straight size, thin, normal,
quote, unquote normal?
What would you say to my jointpain?
What would be your suggestions,your treatment options?
(32:00):
Because they wouldn't be weightloss.
So just dig a little bit, youknow like, force them out of
that lazy medicine box and seewhat they come up with then.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Absolutely Well speaking of that.
So you are a physical therapistwho does not treat joint pain
with recommendations for weightloss.
So how do you support people in, you know, improving their
joint pain, their mobility,things like that, without
focusing on weight loss?
What are things that actuallydo work and do help?
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Great question.
So, first and foremost, Icomplete an actual physical
examination.
Again, if I had a dollar forevery time, someone told me they
went to see a physicaltherapist, a medical doctor,
whomever, who didn't even touchthem, just ask a couple of
questions or sometimes don'teven ask questions and just made
a treatment plan.
So the first thing I do is I doa complete physical examination
(32:56):
and then I ask you a millionquestions.
The first half of our sessionis talking, because there's no
way I can help you if I don'thave an understanding of who you
are, what your lifestyle lookslike, and I can't make
assumptions about that.
I need to know from you and Ineed to look at your body and
check the range of motion inyour joints and test your
(33:17):
strength and and check yourligamentous integrity.
And you know, palpate and feeland see if there's tender points
or pressure points.
All of that, all of that is apart of the full picture of who
you are.
And once I know that, then Isee, oh okay, we're lacking in
range of motion in here.
These muscles are really,really weak.
These muscles are excessivelytight.
(33:38):
There's an imbalance from hereto there.
These ligaments do not seem tobe doing their job.
Maybe they need to see theirdoctor and get an MRI.
You know there might be aspecial test we do and I'm like
they might have like an actualtear of a ligament that needs to
be looked at.
So, giving people actualinformation based on an
examination and an interview ofthem, the expert they're the
(34:02):
expert I'm just there helpingthem figure it out and doing
that, then I can create atreatment plan that makes sense.
And so, primarily what happens,what I see most of the time is
there's a severe lack of rangeof motion in the joint and often
it is because of a very tightmuscle group.
You know we were not taught tostretch.
You know our emphasis in ourculture is on like a bunch of
(34:25):
cardio.
If you're a woman or someonewho identifies as a woman, it's
like do your cardio to try toget as small as you can.
And you know squat, of course,because you know we like to have
a big.
You know booty now becausethat's popular.
So that's like the extent oflike our exercise prescription
for people like what's healthyand good for you.
But we're not taught to stretch.
And I tell people all the timeyour muscles are only as strong
(34:46):
as they are flexible.
If you do not have muscleflexibility, I don't care how
big that bicep looks, how formedand beautiful it is, when you
go to reach for something it'sgoing to tear and that's a whole
problem.
So flexibility is like number.
That's the number one thingthat I see.
It stops us from doingeverything and then it impacts
our posture.
So how we normally sit andstand, this muscle group is
(35:08):
short.
That muscle group is long andstretched out and weak, and so
we have to, like, reverseengineer what we want to see.
We want good posture.
Her shoulders are forward.
We have to relax the muscles inthe chest wall, strengthen the
muscles in the upper back.
That's instant, Like that'swhat we do, so recognizing where
the instability is, where theinsufficiencies are, where the
(35:31):
imbalances are, and then, like,we're going to stretch this
group, we're going to strengthenthis group.
You're going to do this at home.
And then we're going to worktogether once or twice a week
and and push into it even deeper.
We're going to do manualtherapy things to kind of relax
certain areas and help withalignment.
You know, we're going to doendurance training, we're going
to do balance training.
That's another thing we don'twork on as a culture balance, um
(35:53):
, but there's so many otherareas, but it's usually
somewhere around the strengthissues, the flexibility issues,
the range of motion issues inthe joint that require, like,
manual therapy and then againother things like balance,
proprioception and things likethat, but it's it's almost never
.
(36:14):
Really I haven't seen a casewhere it's your joint pain is
because of the size of your bodyit has.
It's always something else.
Now, I will, you know,understand, for some people and
I've had this come up,especially, like in discussions
and forums on social media wherepeople are like, listen, I
understand that maybe losingweight is not what's going to
(36:35):
cure my joint pain, but being inthis body makes it very hard
for me to move and I do like tojust recognize that there there
are limitations that we canexperience in our bodies,
especially if we're managingchanges that have occurred in
our bodies over time and soleaving that space for people to
(36:58):
have their experiences rightand to say like, okay, I don't
live in your body Again.
You're the expert of your bodyand you have a frame of
reference for when you were acertain size and age and now a
different size and age and nowthis what you notice is it is
harder to do certain things, andwe can absolutely accept that
(37:18):
and acknowledge that.
But again, we can absolutelyaccept that and acknowledge that
, but again we we do ourselvesan injustice when we blame it on
the weight, because it's notjust the weight, it's a lack of
mobility.
There are people in largebodies who are extremely
flexible, who can put their footbehind their head.
So it's not, it's not alwaysthe weight.
Maybe the weight and the sizeof your body, because it's new
(37:41):
to you, is impacting what youfeel comfortable and confident
doing.
But that is something we canwork on and we can get better at
that, even if your body doesn'tchange.
And that's that's what I wantpeople to know.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Oh my God.
Yes, that was yes, Becausethat's a thing that absolutely I
think you see a lot of honestlylike to be totally transparent.
It's something that I have beendealing with recently.
I started my career as aPilates instructor in a body
that was quite a bit smallerthan it is now.
(38:13):
Right, I stepped away from itfor like 10 years and, over the
past year, started takingPilates classes again not
teaching, but taking Pilatesclasses again.
Started taking Pilates classesagain, not teaching, but taking
Pilates classes again and I havehad to like relearn how to do a
lot of stuff in my body as itis today.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
And there have been moments of friction about that.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
But you know, because of my background and what I do,
I also am able to recognize,like that is not.
First of all, that's not.
For the most part, physicaldiscomfort is mental discomfort,
which is something not todiscount, that Like that's,
that's very real for people towork through.
And just because something isuncomfortable, the way that I
(38:58):
know how to do it, doesn't meanthat there isn't a way I can
learn to do it that is morecomfortable for my body.
But, I have to allow myself to.
Like I have to let myselfaccess that comfort.
Like I have to know that it'sokay to do it the more
(39:18):
comfortable way.
Like that's not a lesserversion, that's not like you
know.
I have to not judge myself fordoing it that way.
And I think that that's reallyhard for people to do it doesn't
look like it did before.
It doesn't look like it doeswhen other people do it Like I
should be able to do it.
(39:39):
The quote unquote right way.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
I hate the shoulds.
I always say don't shouldyourself.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Exactly, and so there's this like whole process
that people have to go throughto like essentially relearn how
to move in a body that's largerthan it was maybe the last time
they were moving, or things likethat.
And that's very real and solike being able to support
people through that is reallybig.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Yeah, no, it's a.
It's a real thing.
I too have experienced it and Iit's kind of what I do on the
coaching side of my business.
I offer anti diet, health,movement and body image coaching
, and the movement is reallyaround this idea that
modifications are brilliant,modifications are smart,
modifications are wise,modifications are kindness,
(40:29):
modifications are how we showour body the respect that it
deserves and take away the blameof like, oh, I can't do it how
I used to do.
You know, when I go throughthis myself, I'm like so what?
I don't say that to clientsbecause you know I want to offer
more compassion, but justrecognizing that there's no rule
that it has to be done this way.
(41:02):
And, like you said, this isn't alesser version.
Sometimes I will do it how Imodify for my body, sometimes I
will do it how I've helped otherclients modify movements for
their bodies, and sometimes I'lldo it, you know, from a seated
position, so that peoplerecognize like movement is
movement.
You know, you don't have to beable to jump and flip and do
aerials to like move your body.
(41:23):
You can do it from sitting,from lying, and there's no shame
in it and it's not like oh,this is the easy version or the
beginner version.
Oh, this is the you version.
This is the version that makessense for you and your body and
that is the kindest, mostcompassionate thing you can do.
Is give your body what it needs, instead of trying to say, well
, they did it that way, well,that's what their body needs.
(41:43):
That's not your body.
Don't.
Don't think that you have toemulate other people to take
care of you, because you'redifferent people, you know.
So, giving yourself thepermission to do it exactly as
you need it and it could besomething simple.
Like you know, for years I didchild's pose and I could do it,
but it always felt a littleuncomfortable.
And as I've gotten older and Ihave this belly that I didn't
(42:04):
have before, I realized, likechild's pose should be legs open
every time.
That's the only way I do it,and I tell all my clients like,
open those knees, honey, giveyourself space for that body and
take care of yourself, becausecontorting yourself and making
yourself uncomfortable,especially in a position like
(42:25):
child's pose, that's supposed tobe relaxing for your body.
It literally it ruins it andit's no point then.
So, modifications for the winevery day, all day.
Sometimes I mean I can.
I don't do jumping jacks.
I can jump.
I can still jump.
Yeah, I just don't see a pointRight.
I don't enjoy them.
I feel like it puts a lot ofpressure on the inside of my
(42:47):
ankles and knees and so I don't.
I don't jump and jack, I do asidestep, like, and I'm so happy
with it, and guess what, myheart rate gets up and I get a
workout.
So giving people the permissionto say like, yeah, I don't, I
don't have to do it like you,and feeling no shame around that
, that's really, reallyimportant and that's it's hard
work, but it's worth it for sure.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Absolutely Especially like sometimes you, you have an
instructor who's like tellingyou to do it one way and you're
like nope, that's not how mybody does this, but thanks, yeah
, well, I definitely found thatto be like, true, like as an
instructor and as a participant.
But I mean, I pretty much everytime I'm teaching a class I
tell folks I'm like, okay, ifyou want to do jumping jacks, go
(43:29):
for it, but I'm not going to doit.
And I feel like it's validatingfor people to see the person in
the front of the room take thealternative movement because
they're like okay, well, ifshe's okay not doing jumping
jacks, I will be also okay Notdoing jumping jacks.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
I totally agree with that and I think more
instructors need to be open tothat.
What I have experienced and letme let me just say this when
I'm talking about these people,I am talking about myself,
because I used to be this person.
Okay, I used to teach exerciseclasses and I was fiercely
competitive.
I told you my dad was a fitnesscompetitor, so I was fiercely
competitive and I was always incompetition with myself or
someone, and so when I wasteaching, I was doing the
(44:05):
hardest version and and tryingto will everybody to to do that
too.
So I don't pass judgment,because I understand the thought
process that goes into that,but it's it's not healthy or
sustainable long term, andpeople do need to know and see
it from instructors long term.
And people do need to know andsee it from instructors.
And so you know, when I'm in asituation now where I have an
(44:26):
instructor and typically Ihaven't had any like really
negative situations except foronce but when I get, um, like
when I pick up on that energy,that it's like all right, no
pain, no gain, go hard or gohome I just like take a deep
breath and I get into my bubbleand I'm like I'm doing this, how
I'm doing this.
The one time I did have like anicky sort of I won't even call
(44:48):
it altercation, but likeexchange was I was there with a
friend too and she was maybelike four weeks out from a major
abdominal surgery and she wasmodifying everything you know,
having the knee lifts, and theinstructor came down into the
audience and was like get thoseknees up.
And she and so I was like ma'am, get out her face.
(45:11):
Yeah no.
She is recovering from surgeryand leave her alone Like she's
doing the workouts the way sheneeds to.
And she was like, oh well, whyis she here?
Then?
I was like to work out, why areyou in her face?
So I didn't go back there,because me and that lady were
going to end up arguing, andthat's not what I need when I go
(45:33):
work out, but I typically workout at home for that reason.
But yeah, it is, you're right,it's very validating to see the
instructor doing alternativemoves, modifications, so to take
away that, that shame and thatstigma around, like, if you're
(45:53):
doing this, this is like theeasy version, the weak version,
the beginner version.
No, it's not.
It's the best, best version foryou.
And I think we do our clients aservice when we show them
different ways of doing amovement so that they have more
options for them, cause that's,you know, the training we have.
They don't you know.
So helping educate people inthat way is, it's very important
.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Yeah, I love that and I I love the, the framing of
like that.
This is a way that you showyour body, respect, absolutely,
Speaking of which.
I know that you have a bodyrespect journal out.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that?
What that is, where people canfind it?
Speaker 3 (46:43):
cover, but it was just a little labor of love.
I have played with the idea ofdoing more because I really
enjoyed it.
But it's an affirmationaljournal for 30 days and there's
an affirmation for each day andthen a space for you to sort of
write what that means for youand then how it applies to your
day to day life, and it's reallyjust about affirming the beauty
and the utility and theimportance and the significance
(47:07):
of our bodies, without puttingour bodies above the rest of us,
if that makes sense.
So your body is wonderful andgreat and it's your meat suit
that carries you through thisworld and you should treat it
well.
But also, you are so much morethan just a body and I'm pretty
sure you are more than a body isone of the affirmations in the
book.
(47:28):
But it's just an opportunity forpeople to reflect.
You know, it's not about bodypositivity or this idea that, oh
, I look in the mirror and I'mso happy with what I see and I
love it because that's nobodyhas that.
I don't care what size you are,but just what I see and I love
it because that's nobody hasthat.
I don't care what size you are,it's just.
We just don't live in a worldthat allows that.
You know, when I was like, Ilaughed at my niece and my
(47:48):
daughter actually one of mydaughters.
They spent a lot of time in themirror like so happy, like just
loving on themselves, and wemaintain that probably till
we're about five years old, andthen after that it's downhill,
right.
So you can't just wake up andlook at yourself and be happy
with what you see all the timebecause we have so many icky
negative influences on us.
But you can wake up and respectyourself and respect your body
(48:11):
and think.
You know what I'm strugglingwith, the image that I'm seeing
reflected back to me.
But I do know that my body hascarried me through this life and
I do know that it deserves tobe treated well, that my body
has carried me through this lifeand I do know that it deserves
to be treated well.
So just respect and recognizingthat the body is housing the
essence of who you are your mind, your soul, the things you do,
the things you say, the impactyou have, the way you treat
(48:31):
others.
You know all of that is whatmatters about who you are.
But in the interim, while we'renavigating this earth in these
bodies.
We want to treat them well andnot demean them or tell them you
know they're bad or they'rewrong or they need to change so.
So the affirmations arecentered around that and there's
a lot of it's a big one.
It's like eight by eight and ahalf by 11.
So lots of space to write.
(48:52):
And yeah, I'm very proud of itbecause I enjoy it.
I'm doing a talk in Atlantanext weekend to some girls ages
12 to 18 and they'll all begetting one as a part of their
little swag bag.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
So I'm excited to like love that.
Spread that out.
That's awesome and I love that.
Like I tend to be very likeskeptical about affirmations
because so often they're.
They're basically like stand inthe mirror and like pick out a
part of you that you love andthey're just, they feel very
hollow, but like this is likethis is bigger than that, like
(49:26):
this is not body positivity,it's body respect.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
And like.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
these are different things and I think so often
affirmational types of thingsstop at body positivity.
And as a result they don'treally, they don't really create
a lot of change they don'treally like, but this is, this
is the big picture.
This is the body respectjournal.
These are body respectaffirmations and that that's
(49:54):
huge, that's that's awesome.
Speaker 3 (49:55):
I'll send you one.
I'll send you one.
You should have mentioned it.
I should have thought aboutthat.
I'll send you one.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
That would be amazing , thank you.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
Making my note right now.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
I appreciate that.
Yes, so Lisa, it is.
This has been amazing talkingto you.
Where can people find you, howcan people work with you?
Other than the journal, ofcourse, which everybody please
go check that out on Amazon.
But other than that, what?
How can people find you andwork with you?
Speaker 3 (50:23):
Well, my website is healthy fitcom.
Fit is spelled ph it, but Ilive on Instagram, so you know,
just DM me.
I'm fairly responsive.
You know to be like a mom withthree kids and a business.
I get on there probably toomuch.
I do have time limits, butstill, Instagram is Healthy Fit
Same spellingH-E-A-L-T-H-Y-P-H-I-T.
(50:44):
And then I do coaching, I dovirtual physical therapy.
If you're in North or SouthCarolina, everything is weight
inclusive, size inclusive andtrauma and eating disorder
informed.
So if you need support, I amhappy to help.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
That is amazing.
It is good to know that you seeclients virtually in North.
Carolina, because we tend torefer people to all kinds of
different therapies and physicaltherapy comes up at least once
a week.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
So, oh, awesome, yes, I love it, and you know it can
be tough to do physical therapyvirtually, but a lot of people
can still benefit and for meit's being in a safer space
rather than just going to somerandom clinic.
You know it's, it's just better.
So so yeah, happy to help if Ican.
Yeah, awesome.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
Well, lisa, the last question.
We ask everybody what issatisfying you right now?
Speaker 3 (51:38):
Oh, I'm, you know I've.
I told y'all earlier I'mstruggling with a lot right now,
but what is going to soundhilarious, what has really been
satisfying me is is really goodfood, and not just the food, but
like the combination of reallygood food and conversation.
So literally when we get off ofhere, I'm going to meet a good
girlfriend for dinner and I justcan't wait to just sit and eat
(52:03):
especially when I don't have tocook it or clean it up to sit
and eat and talk with my friendwho I haven't gotten to catch up
with in a few months.
So, yeah, that has been verysatisfying.
The, the communal support withgood girlfriends over good food.
That's my thing at the moment.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
It's getting me through lovely, that is the
greatest.
I love that.
And also just like sorepresentative of like a thing
that you lose out on when you'restuck in diet culture, like
it's just like yeah, so that Imean like perfect, perfect,
awesome.
(52:40):
Well, lisa, thank you so muchfor coming to talk to us.
This is huge.
I know our listeners are goingto get so much out of this.
We definitely did, um, and itwas just great to be able to
connect with you.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
thank you for being here thank you, I really enjoyed
the conversation.
I appreciate you all.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
Thanks for having me thanks again to dr lisa fulton
for coming to talk to us.
If you enjoyed this episode,consider leaving us a rating or
review on apple podcast orspotify, as those ratings and
reviews help us reach morepeople, which means more people
get to hear the anti-dietmessage.
We are also on instagram atsatisfaction factor pod.
Be sure to drop by and let usknow what you thought about the
(53:16):
episode that's it for us thisweek.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
We'll catch you next time.
Welcome to Satisfaction Factor, the podcast
where we explore how ditchingdiet culture makes our whole
lives more satisfying.
Welcome back to SatisfactionFactor.
I'm Naomi Katz, an intuitiveeating and body image coach.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I'm Sadie Simpson, a intuitive eating and body image
coach.
I'm Sadie Simpson, a groupfitness instructor and personal
trainer.
Before we dig into this week'sepisode, just a reminder.
If you would like to supportthe show, we have merch.
We have a handful of designswe'll keep public that can be
printed as stickers, t-shirts,sweatshirts, mugs, tote bags and
whatever else you like.
T-shirts and sweatshirts comeinto sizes up to 5X and you can
check that out at the link inour show notes.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Also just a reminder that if you're looking for some
support in your intuitive eatingand anti-diet work, I've got
availability for all of mycoaching options.
I've got spots available forone-on-one intuitive eating and
anti-diet coaching.
I have spots available for myindividual pay what you can
calls mindset reset calls, andthe wait list is also open for
(01:11):
the next cohort of my groupcoaching program, Nourish and
Bloom, and you can get all ofthe information about all of
those options on my website,happyshapesco.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Today we're talking to Dr Lisa Folden about
weight-neutral approaches tojoint pain, mobility and other
physical health issues.
Dr Lisa Ann Folden is a NorthCarolina licensed physical
therapist, nasm certifiedbehavior change specialist and
anti-diet, health and body imagecoach.
She owns Healthy Fit PhysicalTherapy and Wellness Consultants
(01:43):
in Charlotte, north Carolina,where she provides
trauma-informed andweight-inclusive care to clients
in diverse bodies and those ineating disorder recovery.
As a health-at-every-sizeambassador and movement expert,
dr Fulton assists clientsseeking healthier lifestyles.
Her weight-neutral approachencourages intuitive eating,
joyful movement, body acceptanceand breaking up with toxic diet
(02:06):
culture.
Dr Lisa is a mom of three,published author and speaker
whose goal is to see as manypeople as possible living their
best lives without worryingabout their weight.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
And we are so excited to talk to Lisa, because this
is a topic that we've beenwanting to cover for the entire
time that we've been doing thispodcast, which is three years
now, and Lisa is specificallywho we've wanted to invite to
talk with us about it.
And we got it in just in time,because our next episode, on
(02:40):
October 2nd, will be both our100th episode and our last
episode.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Ah, cue like the sound effect music here.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
We have a lot of thoughts and feelings about this
and we are going to be sharingall of them with you then, so be
sure to tune in on October 2ndfor our 100th episode, our third
anniversary and our goodbyeepisode.
But for now, let's talk to Lisa.
Welcome, lisa.
Thank you so much for beinghere with us today.
We are so excited to be gettingto talk to you.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Thank you for having me.
I'm very excited to have thisconversation also.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
We are somewhat local , like we're all in North
Carolina and we have beenwanting to invite you on the pod
for a while, so we're like veryexcited that you're finally
here.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Same same same.
What part of North Carolina arey'all in?
We're in Asheville.
Okay, that's right.
I remember that I loveAsheville.
Yeah, so not too far yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Not too far at all.
Okay, so we're going to startwith the first question that we
ask everybody.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your experience with diet
culture and maybe how that's ledyou to the work that you do
today?
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Yeah, it's a loaded question, but absolutely, diet
culture was like my whole lifeand it was, I would say,
primarily self-inflicted.
I did not have a mother thatgrew up like you know, body
checking and doing a whole lotof that.
So that was nice.
But my dad was a fitnesscompetitor and I didn't live
(04:17):
with him.
But you know, he was veryinfluential in my life.
I just I looked up to him, Iput him on a pedestal and he was
Mr Michigan in 1989 for thelightweight division, so oh, wow
, and so I watched him work outand when I got into high school
and I got into sports, he wouldhave me come to the gym and I
would work out after working outat school and I would see, you
(04:39):
know, all of these people withthese, you know muscles or
really tone, tight, thin bodies,and that was just my perception
of health.
That is what I thought healthwas, and the irony in that is
becoming an adult andrecognizing that all of the
things that my dad was doing inhis fitness competitor life was
like absolutely disordered and Imean severe, under eating,
(05:04):
working out hours a day and then, when competition season was
over, just binging like crazy.
So, um, but I back then that'swhat I pictured to be health,
and so, um, I I'm always a veryshort statured woman and I just
wanted to be small, like I justbelieve that my body getting big
(05:24):
was bad, and so I probablystarted dieting as early as 14.
And everything, all the thingsover the course of my life.
It wasn't until I was about 37.
And I'm only 43.
I was 37 when I finally stopped, but I think the culminating
moment of it all was afterhaving my third child and I was
(05:48):
done breastfeeding him and Istarted gaining weight and I was
like Whoa we can't do this.
How dare we gain weight?
I went into overdrive and sothis is sort of the beginning of
, like, my really reallydisordered behaviors I would say
, exercising daily and severelyunder eating, all of those
things and I just got to a pointwhere I couldn't hold on Like I
(06:11):
didn't know left from right.
My mind was consumed withthoughts of food and movement
all day long and I wasoverwhelmed and I really, you
know I know not everyonebelieves in God or higher power,
but I really feel like Godconspired with the universe to
plant a book in my face and itwas health at every size,
(06:32):
because I never searched forthis.
I certainly didn't search forit in this moment.
To this day, I can't reallyrecall how I stumbled upon it.
My Instagram feed was not thatof anti-diet or body neutral or
anti-fetal.
It wasn't.
So I don't know how it happened, but it came to me and I read
that book and, for someone who'svery into science and research,
(06:55):
reading about it, I don't lovedoing it, but it was mind
blowing to understand finally,to have a, to have the, the
vocabulary to explain what mybody had been doing to me my
whole life, or what I had beendoing to my body my whole life,
and having the language and andunderstanding the science behind
(07:18):
it blew my mind.
And once I had that knowledge,it was like I can't keep living
like this.
So I, I mean, I took a hardleft down from diet culture lane
(07:42):
and I just started reading andlearning and listening to
podcasts and connecting withpeople in this community.
And then I had to change the waythat I approached my work.
Because of a physical therapist, I was very you know, very
traditionally trained and againassociated weight with worsening
health, weight with joint pain,weight, all these things.
(08:04):
And so I had to shift from thatand begin teaching my clients
in a new way and coaching myclients in a new way, and it was
so affirming and so freeing.
It's like the weight is justlifted off your shoulders this
idea that you have to ascribe tothese these rules and these
(08:26):
principles, and you must do thisand this and this, and then,
when it doesn't work well, youmust've done something wrong, so
do it again.
So letting go of that, it wasjust.
It completely changed my lifeand I couldn't practice in the
same way anymore.
You know, being a part of thehealth and wellness world.
So that's the condensed butstill long version, part of the
health and wellness world.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
So that's the convinced but still long version
.
Yeah, no, I mean, I love thatstory.
It's so.
I love hearing people's storiesof how they come to this stuff.
It's always it's amazing to mehow our stories overlap on this,
like everybody's storiesoverlap on this, and what's so
funny is people are always likeI have no idea how I came across
(09:08):
this, it just showed up when Ineeded it and like and I just
love that.
And then it just clicks becauseit's so representative of your
personal experience A lot oftimes of what you're seeing with
your clients but can't explain,of times of what you're seeing
with your clients but can'texplain, and it just like opens
up this whole world and like,and also just like, takes this
(09:29):
huge weight off your shouldersof like, so much self blame, so
much beating yourself up on apersonal level, on a
professional level, and thenit's like oh no, this is
actually just how things aresupposed to be actually just how
things are supposed to be.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yeah, yeah, go figure right.
And it played into other areasof life.
You know, always like aimingfor perfection, um, seeing, you
know, and I always caveat thiswith you know, no one is saying
hard work isn't, you know, greatthing for achieving certain
goals, but I overemphasized,like the self um, the, the, the
(10:11):
role that you play in in yourhealth and in everything.
And so, for me, controlling mylife and making it go the way I
believed it should go was aboutbeing perfect and doing all the
things right.
I was a very good dieter.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Let me just put that out there.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Okay, I was good at it because there was a time in
my life when I could follow therules to a T.
But then I looked in other,like I was a very good student
as well.
I was a very good employee, youknow, because I I believed in
the value of hard work, and Istill do to an extent.
But but I let it drive me tothis idea of perfectionism.
(10:48):
If you can just work hardenough, you can change and do
anything in your life, and thatis what I believed about my body
for so long.
Like you can beat this bodyinto submission and make it
exactly how you want it to be,and recognizing like no, you
can't Right, right, and eventrying is so harmful to yourself
(11:09):
.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah Well, I mean even the language there, like
beat this body into submission.
That sounds terrible, it'sawful.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
It's awful, but in the fitness world mainstream
fitness culture that is thelanguage that you know we use.
Beat myself into submission,suck it up, no pain, no gain,
like what.
But that's how I grew up andwhat I thought was, you know,
(11:39):
the road to good health andrecognizing that it was not even
good health for my body, but itwas like even worse for my
mental and emotional health.
That was the part where it waslike, oh, I've been neglecting.
You know two thirds of who I amRight.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
My body look a certain way so, and then you can
start blaming yourself for thattoo.
So you have to kind of let go.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
But yeah, that that's a huge thing, like so many, so
often, when people get to thatpoint, when they do have that
like aha moment of like, oh, Iactually can't hard work and
control my way out of geneticsand social determinants of
health and like structural andsystemic issues and stuff like
(12:27):
that.
Like you have that aha momentand then you go oh my God, what
have I been doing with my life?
And there's this other, and solike it's just, it's just this
ability to like, access,compassion for yourself, all
around, that's the key.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
That is the key.
If I had a dollar, for how manytimes I said compassion in a
session, you know, in sessionswith clients, because that's all
it is.
It's giving ourselves acompassion we give other people
every single day, like everysingle day we're nicer to other
people than we are to ourselvesand it's a shame and so, yeah,
that's my whole goal now like tobe kind to myself.
(13:06):
And it shows up in letting goof diets and letting go of you
know all the toxic messages weget from from that industry.
But even things like justgiving myself a pass, like I, I
would never I used to nevercancel a thing.
I said I was going to a thing,my word is my bond, I am at the
thing or we are doing the thing.
(13:27):
But this past two years, justbeing able to say, you know what
, when I scheduled this, Ithought it was going to work and
I feel awful today, orsomething's off or I just need a
day, or I just need a minuteand it's.
It's been so beautiful to seethe response that people give
you like okay, absolutely, Iunderstand and you're like yeah
(13:54):
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
I have never that was a huge learning curve for me
too, and, like when I starteddoing that, I have never had
anybody give me a hard timeabout canceling something like,
and that has blown my mind.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
So silly how we do that to ourselves.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Absolutely.
But it's so interesting howlike, ultimately it's all just
perfectionism, like the, thedieting, the, like the, the
health stuff, the um, like allof that, like controlling and
everything, and ultimatelythat's.
There's no way that's onlygoing to show up in relation to
(14:31):
food and our body.
It's going to show up in allkinds of places in our lives.
And so there's like such alarger path here to like
deconstructing perfectionism,when we start to let go of it
around food and bodies, likedeconstructing perfectionism
when we start to let go of itaround food and bodies.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Oh gosh, you are just , like I don't know, bringing up
too many things, because whatI'm finding is it's in every
part of my life yeah, every partand you know, not something
that I've talked about publiclyvery much, but I'm in the
process of going through adivorce and that whole process
is bringing up so many of thesame things that came up as I as
(15:09):
I divorced diet, culture likeletting go of these ideas of
what your life is supposed tolook like and what you're
supposed to look like and whatyour family is supposed to look
like.
And, oh my God, it's kicking mywhole butt.
I mean, I'm still in the thickof it, obviously, but it's just
been astonishing to see theparallels in different aspects
(15:32):
of my life.
But you're right, it comes, itcomes around in in so many other
issues and relationships andareas of life.
For sure, and it'sperfectionism is a big part of
it, so yeah, thank you forsharing that with us.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
And like, and yeah, I mean that's something I see,
I've seen in my life, I've seenin with clients is that like our
relationships, like how we showup in our relationships and how
we offer ourselves compassionin different areas of our lives,
how we handle transition, andlike all of that stuff is just
(16:08):
so heavily impacted by all ofthis?
Yeah, it really is.
I love that you already haveall of these self-compassion
tools to offer yourself rightnow.
That's so nice.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I need them trust me.
Yeah, for sure, A lot happening, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Absolutely Well, just to sort of transition the topic
a little bit works from thishealth at every size, weight
neutral, weight inclusiveperspective for health overall,
(16:48):
but also specifically forphysical therapy things, you
know, joint pain, mobility,flexibility, physical wellness
in general and I'd love to talka little bit more about that,
because so often the likecontrolling narrative,
especially around joint pain, isoh, you have joint pain, well,
(17:10):
you should lose weight, right,and I think that's something
that's really really hard forpeople to let go of.
Oh yeah.
So I'm kind of curious like,first of all, is that true?
Do we actually need to loseweight in order to improve our
joint pain, our mobility, all ofthat stuff?
Speaker 3 (17:48):
the science, people listening.
The science behind bonebuilding, bone strengthening is
that our bones respond to theprogressive load that they
receive, and that is why we havepeople doing strength training
where they're loading theirbodies with weights or doing
body weight exercises.
That weight bearing through thebones specifically we're
talking about the lowerextremity bones and joints is
(18:08):
actually helpful to buildingstrong bones, and so this
concept, especially when we'retalking about people who have
always lived in larger or fatbodies their bones are made for
them, are made for them.
(18:30):
So this idea that your jointpain is heavily impacted by the
size and weight of your body isit's just a flawed concept, and
I'm not saying that there'snever an instance where your
weight can can impact yourjoints.
Of course and I see this morewhen people gain a large amount
of weight in a very short windowof time, which is usually when
someone is on some sort ofmedication that makes them like
really shift bodies, like reallyquickly, right, that can have
(18:52):
an impact, because it's not theprogressive load of normal
weight gain, right that yourjoints have the opportunity to
adjust to.
So that would be like anexample of where it might be a
direct correlation impact orcausative impact is what I'll
say.
What most people experience isthat correlation right?
(19:13):
They're like when I was youngerand I was thinner, I didn't
have joint pain.
Now that I'm older and I'mheavier, I have joint pain.
It's the weight and I get that.
I get why you see it that way,but I just want people to think
a little deeper, because yousaid two things.
Two things Right, right, older,yeah, so.
(19:35):
Is it the weight?
Or is it age related changes?
Hello, because that is just thenature of our bodies we age the
nature of our bodies.
We age, things get older andsome things are, are less
competent than they are in ouryouth.
Such is life, right, yeah?
Or?
And?
(19:56):
Or.
Because more than one or two orthree or five things can be
true.
Is it the changes that yourlifestyle has sustained over the
course of time?
Right, and people naturallyassociate that.
Well, the weight change?
Well, yes, and that will change.
But did your activity levelchange, right?
(20:17):
Has your strength changed?
Has your flexibility changedover the course of all these
years?
Did you incur any injuries inthis joint?
You know what I mean.
Has your posture changed?
All of these things impact ourjoint health, and so when we
just narrow in and decide it'sjust the weight, we're really
(20:37):
doing our bodies a disservice,because we're not looking at the
whole picture.
And you can find a correlation,I think, the one that comes up
all the time, I think is it baldmen and lung cancer?
That?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
could be wrong, but yeah, no, it's something like
that, but this correlation.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
So many bald men they have.
So many bald men have a higheroccurrence of lung cancer and
literally we know from sciencethe baldness and the cancer have
nothing to do with each other.
They're just correlated.
Just happens to be that way forother factors outside of those
two things.
And so when we're talking aboutweight and joint pain, a lot of
(21:14):
times people just pull thosetwo entities out and be like,
well, you cause this and that'snot what's happening.
There can be correlationsbecause, yes, if you go from
being a very active person tobeing way more inactive, if you
have an injury and find that youcan't do the things you used to
do, if you are expending lessenergy than you used to, and add
(21:35):
in just aging, hormonal changes, all that stuff, it's very
likely that you will gain weight.
But that doesn't mean theweight is causing the pain in
the joints.
What is likely causing the painin the joints are the
degenerative changes.
We know that is directly causalto joint pain and a lack of
strength and flexibility thatyou're experiencing the joint
because of the lack of activityor whatever, and hydration and
(22:00):
supplementation, all the things.
There's so many factors thatdirectly impact the joint pain.
Um, and weight is notnecessarily one of them.
So that's one of the myths Ilike busting for people, because
people come in with a lot ofself blame around joint pain and
our medical system is so unkindto people in larger bodies and
I mean I have clients right nowthat they their joints are done
(22:23):
from life not from anything todo like, just from life and they
need to have a jointreplacement surgery and they're
denied because they're too large, their BMI is too high, which
is a whole thing.
It's a whole thing.
Advocacy is so important andthat's, you know, for me, the
work that I do is so importantbecause I have to show these if
I can't get them the surgerywhich you know we try but I have
(22:45):
to show them so much compassionand help them be more
compassionate to themselves,because they take on the blame
of like, well, this is my faultIf I had just figured out how to
lose weight or figure out howto stay small and it's like this
is not your fault.
This is something that youdon't deserve to just happen to
happen, like so many otherhorrible, annoying, upsetting
things in life.
You didn't do this to yourself.
(23:08):
Other horrible, annoying,upsetting things in life.
You didn't do this to yourself.
So taking that blame away ishuge because our medical system
puts it, puts it on us.
So we need to know we didn't dothis ourselves.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
You said so many things that Iloved there and so I just want
to backtrack to like a couple ofparts of that.
So, first of all, I loved whatyou said about the kind of
progressive load, and I want tokind of talk about that a little
bit more, because I thinkwhat's really really interesting
and I think this is somethingthat is honestly going to like
(23:38):
blow people's minds when theythink about it, because we don't
think about it this way butlike, like why wouldn't you know
we don't talk about the harmsof progressive overload in
squatting or something like that?
Like that's fine, definitely dothat, but but you definitely
(24:01):
can't just have body weight thatdoes that.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
That's, that's bad.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Right and like when you put it in that perspective,
it's like why?
Why do you think that your bodycan adapt to one of these
things and not the other?
Like why is one of these thingsokay and the other is your
fault?
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Yeah, because the pathology of of weight and body
size is a lucrative business.
So if we can make peoplebelieve that they are the cause
of their problems and fatness isa problem, then we can get
money for fixing the problem.
And that's what it is.
I mean, that's all it is,unfortunately, and it's lazy
(24:44):
medicine.
That's what I call lazymedicine.
It's like I'm not going to digto figure anything else out, I'm
just going to see it's anti-fatbias, that's what it is.
I'm going to see this person inthis large body and make
assumptions about what they do,what they eat, how they live and
I'm going to say if you justworked out more and ate a little
less, change your diet up andlose some weight, you probably
(25:05):
won't experience that painanymore.
Change your diet up and losesome weight, you probably won't
experience that pain anymore.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, and and even though the science doesn't
support it at all the researchdoesn't support it at all we
just, it's a low-hanging fruit,it's just, it's the easy grab so
, and it's also so interestingbecause it's like it's
counterintuitive too, becausepart of that prescription for
weight loss is probably going tobe exercise, which probably is
(25:30):
going to include some kind ofstrength training and
progressive overload.
And so it's just so interestingthat, like, you're basically
prescribing for somebody to dosomething that their body is
actually already doing andhaving trouble with and like
needing some support with anyway.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yep, absolutely.
It literally makes no sensewhen you think about it that way
.
There's no rhyme or reason toit.
Because if that were the case,we would tell people, especially
we would tell everyone in a fator large body don't lift
weights, because more weight onyour joints is just going to
make that joint pain worse.
We don't do that.
We encourage them to liftweights and also to overdo
(26:09):
cardio, but we encourage that wedon't tell them like, oh no,
that added weight is going toblow your knees out, because,
one, it's not and two, becausethat's not how our bodies work.
Our bodies literally adjust tothe load that they are given,
and that is especially true whenwe're talking about, you know,
(26:29):
strength training, building upour bones, building up our
muscles.
So, yeah, it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
It does not translate , and I think sometimes people
just need to hear it out loud tobe like oh, I mean, I needed to
hear that out loud Because assomebody that works in fitness,
like personal training, teaching, group exercise this comes up
all the time and to have thislanguage of progressive overload
(26:55):
of your body, like buildingthis progressive strength more
or less over time.
Like I'm literally just goingto send everybody to listen to
this podcast episode becausethis like puts into words a lot
of conversations that I havethat I felt like I've just kind
of muddled my way through thismakes so much sense to me.
(27:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Absolutely and I also liked the framing of like that.
There are some exceptions likethat.
There is occasionally aninstance where you do see, like
rapid weight gain, where yourbody has it doesn't have the the
time to adapt the way, the wayit needs to.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
But I also.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
I also like your framing of it is like rapid and
unusual, usually from amedication Cause.
I think a lot of times peopleare will be like, oh well, I've
put on X amount of weight overthe past year and it's like,
yeah, but like that'sessentially progressive overload
.
You didn't just like snap yourfingers and add a bunch of
(28:00):
weight to your body.
You've gradually been adding itover the year, which means your
body is adapting to it asyou're adding it.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Absolutely.
That's very different than Istarted this steroid, steroidal
medication for this conditionthat I have, and in a week I was
up 20 pounds.
You know that's very differentthan than gaining the weight
over the course of a year or sixmonths or whatever.
So, yeah, I do think those aresituations, and then, you know,
a lot of times that's fluid andfluid impacts us in different
(28:29):
ways as well.
So so, yeah, there are somedefinite considerations for
changing in body size anddealing with pain in our joints,
but it's, it's just not the oldschool lazy medicine thought
process that you got fat and nowyour joints hurt, so fix it
Like that's just.
It's just dumb, it's and it'snot, it's not right.
That's really just the bottomline.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Absolutely, and then I also really appreciate the
like, the perspective ofmultiple things are often
happening at the same time.
And like weight gain may be asymptom of the thing that is
also causing the joint pain orthe change in mobility or things
(29:11):
like that, and so, like it'seasy to say well, both of these
things happened at the same time, so the weight gain is the
reason.
But like that, it's soimportant to to kind of look at
the bigger picture of like no,what else is happening that
could possibly have led to bothof these things?
Like that's a conversation Ihave with clients all the time
(29:36):
about like well, I felt better,Like my body felt better, I was
able to move better, like when Iwas in a smaller body, and it's
like, okay, but what else haschanged since you put on the
weight?
Like what?
Else have you?
What in your lifestyle haschanged, Like that could also be
making things not feel so good.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Yeah, that's, and I have that conversation.
Sometimes it's on social mediawhen I talk about.
Like you know, you didn't causeyour joint pain by gaining
weight and losing weight won'tnecessarily change it.
And people are like, well, Ifelt so much better when I lost
weight and I'm like, okay,that's really good for you, I'm
so glad you feel better.
But maybe maybe it was theweight.
In your case I don't live inyour body and I trust that you
(30:14):
are the expert of that and I'mnot but maybe it was the changes
in the nutritional intake, likemaybe you were eating more
nutritionally dense foods, ormaybe you were drinking a lot
more water, or maybe you weretaking some really good
supplements for your bones, ormaybe you were moving more,
maybe you were stretching more,maybe you were doing more
functional tasks like thosethings aid in the lessening of
(30:39):
joint pain far more thanchanging your body size.
So having that conversation onthe other end but also I like to
remind people that if weight,body size, fat composition
whatever you want to say is theculprit for joint pain, why are
there thin people with jointpain?
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Always.
There's nothing that only fatpeople deal with, except for,
like anti-fat bias, obviously.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
Exactly Just weight-based discrimination,
Absolutely.
Why is?
Why are there thin people withjoint pain and why are there
larger body people who don'thave joint pain?
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Right.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Yeah, yeah.
If we can't explain that, thenlike, yeah, that's the whole
basis of the conversation.
And so when I am trying to, youknow, help my clients advocate
for themselves, I often say youknow, if you're going to the
doctor for joint pain and youhappen to exist in a larger body
, just just preemptively tellyour doctor, or wait till after
(31:40):
they make their recommendations,but tell them I would like some
treatment options that youwould give a person in a smaller
body.
What would you say if I weighed100 pounds less or whatever?
What would you say if I was ina straight size, thin, normal,
quote, unquote normal?
What would you say to my jointpain?
What would be your suggestions,your treatment options?
(32:00):
Because they wouldn't be weightloss.
So just dig a little bit, youknow like, force them out of
that lazy medicine box and seewhat they come up with then.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Absolutely Well speaking of that.
So you are a physical therapistwho does not treat joint pain
with recommendations for weightloss.
So how do you support people in, you know, improving their
joint pain, their mobility,things like that, without
focusing on weight loss?
What are things that actuallydo work and do help?
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Great question.
So, first and foremost, Icomplete an actual physical
examination.
Again, if I had a dollar forevery time, someone told me they
went to see a physicaltherapist, a medical doctor,
whomever, who didn't even touchthem, just ask a couple of
questions or sometimes don'teven ask questions and just made
a treatment plan.
So the first thing I do is I doa complete physical examination
(32:56):
and then I ask you a millionquestions.
The first half of our sessionis talking, because there's no
way I can help you if I don'thave an understanding of who you
are, what your lifestyle lookslike, and I can't make
assumptions about that.
I need to know from you and Ineed to look at your body and
check the range of motion inyour joints and test your
(33:17):
strength and and check yourligamentous integrity.
And you know, palpate and feeland see if there's tender points
or pressure points.
All of that, all of that is apart of the full picture of who
you are.
And once I know that, then Isee, oh okay, we're lacking in
range of motion in here.
These muscles are really,really weak.
These muscles are excessivelytight.
(33:38):
There's an imbalance from hereto there.
These ligaments do not seem tobe doing their job.
Maybe they need to see theirdoctor and get an MRI.
You know there might be aspecial test we do and I'm like
they might have like an actualtear of a ligament that needs to
be looked at.
So, giving people actualinformation based on an
examination and an interview ofthem, the expert they're the
(34:02):
expert I'm just there helpingthem figure it out and doing
that, then I can create atreatment plan that makes sense.
And so, primarily what happens,what I see most of the time is
there's a severe lack of rangeof motion in the joint and often
it is because of a very tightmuscle group.
You know we were not taught tostretch.
You know our emphasis in ourculture is on like a bunch of
(34:25):
cardio.
If you're a woman or someonewho identifies as a woman, it's
like do your cardio to try toget as small as you can.
And you know squat, of course,because you know we like to have
a big.
You know booty now becausethat's popular.
So that's like the extent oflike our exercise prescription
for people like what's healthyand good for you.
But we're not taught to stretch.
And I tell people all the timeyour muscles are only as strong
(34:46):
as they are flexible.
If you do not have muscleflexibility, I don't care how
big that bicep looks, how formedand beautiful it is, when you
go to reach for something it'sgoing to tear and that's a whole
problem.
So flexibility is like number.
That's the number one thingthat I see.
It stops us from doingeverything and then it impacts
our posture.
So how we normally sit andstand, this muscle group is
(35:08):
short.
That muscle group is long andstretched out and weak, and so
we have to, like, reverseengineer what we want to see.
We want good posture.
Her shoulders are forward.
We have to relax the muscles inthe chest wall, strengthen the
muscles in the upper back.
That's instant, Like that'swhat we do, so recognizing where
the instability is, where theinsufficiencies are, where the
(35:31):
imbalances are, and then, like,we're going to stretch this
group, we're going to strengthenthis group.
You're going to do this at home.
And then we're going to worktogether once or twice a week
and and push into it even deeper.
We're going to do manualtherapy things to kind of relax
certain areas and help withalignment.
You know, we're going to doendurance training, we're going
to do balance training.
That's another thing we don'twork on as a culture balance, um
(35:53):
, but there's so many otherareas, but it's usually
somewhere around the strengthissues, the flexibility issues,
the range of motion issues inthe joint that require, like,
manual therapy and then againother things like balance,
proprioception and things likethat, but it's it's almost never
.
(36:14):
Really I haven't seen a casewhere it's your joint pain is
because of the size of your bodyit has.
It's always something else.
Now, I will, you know,understand, for some people and
I've had this come up,especially, like in discussions
and forums on social media wherepeople are like, listen, I
understand that maybe losingweight is not what's going to
(36:35):
cure my joint pain, but being inthis body makes it very hard
for me to move and I do like tojust recognize that there there
are limitations that we canexperience in our bodies,
especially if we're managingchanges that have occurred in
our bodies over time and soleaving that space for people to
(36:58):
have their experiences rightand to say like, okay, I don't
live in your body Again.
You're the expert of your bodyand you have a frame of
reference for when you were acertain size and age and now a
different size and age and nowthis what you notice is it is
harder to do certain things, andwe can absolutely accept that
(37:18):
and acknowledge that.
But again, we can absolutelyaccept that and acknowledge that
, but again we we do ourselvesan injustice when we blame it on
the weight, because it's notjust the weight, it's a lack of
mobility.
There are people in largebodies who are extremely
flexible, who can put their footbehind their head.
So it's not, it's not alwaysthe weight.
Maybe the weight and the sizeof your body, because it's new
(37:41):
to you, is impacting what youfeel comfortable and confident
doing.
But that is something we canwork on and we can get better at
that, even if your body doesn'tchange.
And that's that's what I wantpeople to know.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Oh my God.
Yes, that was yes, Becausethat's a thing that absolutely I
think you see a lot of honestlylike to be totally transparent.
It's something that I have beendealing with recently.
I started my career as aPilates instructor in a body
that was quite a bit smallerthan it is now.
(38:13):
Right, I stepped away from itfor like 10 years and, over the
past year, started takingPilates classes again not
teaching, but taking Pilatesclasses again.
Started taking Pilates classesagain, not teaching, but taking
Pilates classes again and I havehad to like relearn how to do a
lot of stuff in my body as itis today.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
And there have been moments of friction about that.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
But you know, because of my background and what I do,
I also am able to recognize,like that is not.
First of all, that's not.
For the most part, physicaldiscomfort is mental discomfort,
which is something not todiscount, that Like that's,
that's very real for people towork through.
And just because something isuncomfortable, the way that I
(38:58):
know how to do it, doesn't meanthat there isn't a way I can
learn to do it that is morecomfortable for my body.
But, I have to allow myself to.
Like I have to let myselfaccess that comfort.
Like I have to know that it'sokay to do it the more
(39:18):
comfortable way.
Like that's not a lesserversion, that's not like you
know.
I have to not judge myself fordoing it that way.
And I think that that's reallyhard for people to do it doesn't
look like it did before.
It doesn't look like it doeswhen other people do it Like I
should be able to do it.
(39:39):
The quote unquote right way.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
I hate the shoulds.
I always say don't shouldyourself.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Exactly, and so there's this like whole process
that people have to go throughto like essentially relearn how
to move in a body that's largerthan it was maybe the last time
they were moving, or things likethat.
And that's very real and solike being able to support
people through that is reallybig.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Yeah, no, it's a.
It's a real thing.
I too have experienced it and Iit's kind of what I do on the
coaching side of my business.
I offer anti diet, health,movement and body image coaching
, and the movement is reallyaround this idea that
modifications are brilliant,modifications are smart,
modifications are wise,modifications are kindness,
(40:29):
modifications are how we showour body the respect that it
deserves and take away the blameof like, oh, I can't do it how
I used to do.
You know, when I go throughthis myself, I'm like so what?
I don't say that to clientsbecause you know I want to offer
more compassion, but justrecognizing that there's no rule
that it has to be done this way.
(41:02):
And, like you said, this isn't alesser version.
Sometimes I will do it how Imodify for my body, sometimes I
will do it how I've helped otherclients modify movements for
their bodies, and sometimes I'lldo it, you know, from a seated
position, so that peoplerecognize like movement is
movement.
You know, you don't have to beable to jump and flip and do
aerials to like move your body.
(41:23):
You can do it from sitting,from lying, and there's no shame
in it and it's not like oh,this is the easy version or the
beginner version.
Oh, this is the you version.
This is the version that makessense for you and your body and
that is the kindest, mostcompassionate thing you can do.
Is give your body what it needs, instead of trying to say, well
, they did it that way, well,that's what their body needs.
(41:43):
That's not your body.
Don't.
Don't think that you have toemulate other people to take
care of you, because you'redifferent people, you know.
So, giving yourself thepermission to do it exactly as
you need it and it could besomething simple.
Like you know, for years I didchild's pose and I could do it,
but it always felt a littleuncomfortable.
And as I've gotten older and Ihave this belly that I didn't
(42:04):
have before, I realized, likechild's pose should be legs open
every time.
That's the only way I do it,and I tell all my clients like,
open those knees, honey, giveyourself space for that body and
take care of yourself, becausecontorting yourself and making
yourself uncomfortable,especially in a position like
(42:25):
child's pose, that's supposed tobe relaxing for your body.
It literally it ruins it andit's no point then.
So, modifications for the winevery day, all day.
Sometimes I mean I can.
I don't do jumping jacks.
I can jump.
I can still jump.
Yeah, I just don't see a pointRight.
I don't enjoy them.
I feel like it puts a lot ofpressure on the inside of my
(42:47):
ankles and knees and so I don't.
I don't jump and jack, I do asidestep, like, and I'm so happy
with it, and guess what, myheart rate gets up and I get a
workout.
So giving people the permissionto say like, yeah, I don't, I
don't have to do it like you,and feeling no shame around that
, that's really, reallyimportant and that's it's hard
work, but it's worth it for sure.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Absolutely Especially like sometimes you, you have an
instructor who's like tellingyou to do it one way and you're
like nope, that's not how mybody does this, but thanks, yeah
, well, I definitely found thatto be like, true, like as an
instructor and as a participant.
But I mean, I pretty much everytime I'm teaching a class I
tell folks I'm like, okay, ifyou want to do jumping jacks, go
(43:29):
for it, but I'm not going to doit.
And I feel like it's validatingfor people to see the person in
the front of the room take thealternative movement because
they're like okay, well, ifshe's okay not doing jumping
jacks, I will be also okay Notdoing jumping jacks.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
I totally agree with that and I think more
instructors need to be open tothat.
What I have experienced and letme let me just say this when
I'm talking about these people,I am talking about myself,
because I used to be this person.
Okay, I used to teach exerciseclasses and I was fiercely
competitive.
I told you my dad was a fitnesscompetitor, so I was fiercely
competitive and I was always incompetition with myself or
someone, and so when I wasteaching, I was doing the
(44:05):
hardest version and and tryingto will everybody to to do that
too.
So I don't pass judgment,because I understand the thought
process that goes into that,but it's it's not healthy or
sustainable long term, andpeople do need to know and see
it from instructors long term.
And people do need to know andsee it from instructors.
And so you know, when I'm in asituation now where I have an
(44:26):
instructor and typically Ihaven't had any like really
negative situations except foronce but when I get, um, like
when I pick up on that energy,that it's like all right, no
pain, no gain, go hard or gohome I just like take a deep
breath and I get into my bubbleand I'm like I'm doing this, how
I'm doing this.
The one time I did have like anicky sort of I won't even call
(44:48):
it altercation, but likeexchange was I was there with a
friend too and she was maybelike four weeks out from a major
abdominal surgery and she wasmodifying everything you know,
having the knee lifts, and theinstructor came down into the
audience and was like get thoseknees up.
And she and so I was like ma'am, get out her face.
(45:11):
Yeah no.
She is recovering from surgeryand leave her alone Like she's
doing the workouts the way sheneeds to.
And she was like, oh well, whyis she here?
Then?
I was like to work out, why areyou in her face?
So I didn't go back there,because me and that lady were
going to end up arguing, andthat's not what I need when I go
(45:33):
work out, but I typically workout at home for that reason.
But yeah, it is, you're right,it's very validating to see the
instructor doing alternativemoves, modifications, so to take
away that, that shame and thatstigma around, like, if you're
(45:53):
doing this, this is like theeasy version, the weak version,
the beginner version.
No, it's not.
It's the best, best version foryou.
And I think we do our clients aservice when we show them
different ways of doing amovement so that they have more
options for them, cause that's,you know, the training we have.
They don't you know.
So helping educate people inthat way is, it's very important
.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Yeah, I love that and I I love the, the framing of
like that.
This is a way that you showyour body, respect, absolutely,
Speaking of which.
I know that you have a bodyrespect journal out.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that?
What that is, where people canfind it?
Speaker 3 (46:43):
cover, but it was just a little labor of love.
I have played with the idea ofdoing more because I really
enjoyed it.
But it's an affirmationaljournal for 30 days and there's
an affirmation for each day andthen a space for you to sort of
write what that means for youand then how it applies to your
day to day life, and it's reallyjust about affirming the beauty
and the utility and theimportance and the significance
(47:07):
of our bodies, without puttingour bodies above the rest of us,
if that makes sense.
So your body is wonderful andgreat and it's your meat suit
that carries you through thisworld and you should treat it
well.
But also, you are so much morethan just a body and I'm pretty
sure you are more than a body isone of the affirmations in the
book.
(47:28):
But it's just an opportunity forpeople to reflect.
You know, it's not about bodypositivity or this idea that, oh
, I look in the mirror and I'mso happy with what I see and I
love it because that's nobodyhas that.
I don't care what size you are,but just what I see and I love
it because that's nobody hasthat.
I don't care what size you are,it's just.
We just don't live in a worldthat allows that.
You know, when I was like, Ilaughed at my niece and my
(47:48):
daughter actually one of mydaughters.
They spent a lot of time in themirror like so happy, like just
loving on themselves, and wemaintain that probably till
we're about five years old, andthen after that it's downhill,
right.
So you can't just wake up andlook at yourself and be happy
with what you see all the timebecause we have so many icky
negative influences on us.
But you can wake up and respectyourself and respect your body
(48:11):
and think.
You know what I'm strugglingwith, the image that I'm seeing
reflected back to me.
But I do know that my body hascarried me through this life and
I do know that it deserves tobe treated well, that my body
has carried me through this lifeand I do know that it deserves
to be treated well.
So just respect and recognizingthat the body is housing the
essence of who you are your mind, your soul, the things you do,
the things you say, the impactyou have, the way you treat
(48:31):
others.
You know all of that is whatmatters about who you are.
But in the interim, while we'renavigating this earth in these
bodies.
We want to treat them well andnot demean them or tell them you
know they're bad or they'rewrong or they need to change so.
So the affirmations arecentered around that and there's
a lot of it's a big one.
It's like eight by eight and ahalf by 11.
So lots of space to write.
(48:52):
And yeah, I'm very proud of itbecause I enjoy it.
I'm doing a talk in Atlantanext weekend to some girls ages
12 to 18 and they'll all begetting one as a part of their
little swag bag.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
So I'm excited to like love that.
Spread that out.
That's awesome and I love that.
Like I tend to be very likeskeptical about affirmations
because so often they're.
They're basically like stand inthe mirror and like pick out a
part of you that you love andthey're just, they feel very
hollow, but like this is likethis is bigger than that, like
(49:26):
this is not body positivity,it's body respect.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
And like.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
these are different things and I think so often
affirmational types of thingsstop at body positivity.
And as a result they don'treally, they don't really create
a lot of change they don'treally like, but this is, this
is the big picture.
This is the body respectjournal.
These are body respectaffirmations and that that's
(49:54):
huge, that's that's awesome.
Speaker 3 (49:55):
I'll send you one.
I'll send you one.
You should have mentioned it.
I should have thought aboutthat.
I'll send you one.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
That would be amazing , thank you.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
Making my note right now.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
I appreciate that.
Yes, so Lisa, it is.
This has been amazing talkingto you.
Where can people find you, howcan people work with you?
Other than the journal, ofcourse, which everybody please
go check that out on Amazon.
But other than that, what?
How can people find you andwork with you?
Speaker 3 (50:23):
Well, my website is healthy fitcom.
Fit is spelled ph it, but Ilive on Instagram, so you know,
just DM me.
I'm fairly responsive.
You know to be like a mom withthree kids and a business.
I get on there probably toomuch.
I do have time limits, butstill, Instagram is Healthy Fit
Same spellingH-E-A-L-T-H-Y-P-H-I-T.
(50:44):
And then I do coaching, I dovirtual physical therapy.
If you're in North or SouthCarolina, everything is weight
inclusive, size inclusive andtrauma and eating disorder
informed.
So if you need support, I amhappy to help.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
That is amazing.
It is good to know that you seeclients virtually in North.
Carolina, because we tend torefer people to all kinds of
different therapies and physicaltherapy comes up at least once
a week.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
So, oh, awesome, yes, I love it, and you know it can
be tough to do physical therapyvirtually, but a lot of people
can still benefit and for meit's being in a safer space
rather than just going to somerandom clinic.
You know it's, it's just better.
So so yeah, happy to help if Ican.
Yeah, awesome.
Speaker 1 (51:32):
Well, lisa, the last question.
We ask everybody what issatisfying you right now?
Speaker 3 (51:38):
Oh, I'm, you know I've.
I told y'all earlier I'mstruggling with a lot right now,
but what is going to soundhilarious, what has really been
satisfying me is is really goodfood, and not just the food, but
like the combination of reallygood food and conversation.
So literally when we get off ofhere, I'm going to meet a good
girlfriend for dinner and I justcan't wait to just sit and eat
(52:03):
especially when I don't have tocook it or clean it up to sit
and eat and talk with my friendwho I haven't gotten to catch up
with in a few months.
So, yeah, that has been verysatisfying.
The, the communal support withgood girlfriends over good food.
That's my thing at the moment.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
It's getting me through lovely, that is the
greatest.
I love that.
And also just like sorepresentative of like a thing
that you lose out on when you'restuck in diet culture, like
it's just like yeah, so that Imean like perfect, perfect,
awesome.
(52:40):
Well, lisa, thank you so muchfor coming to talk to us.
This is huge.
I know our listeners are goingto get so much out of this.
We definitely did, um, and itwas just great to be able to
connect with you.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
thank you for being here thank you, I really enjoyed
the conversation.
I appreciate you all.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
Thanks for having me thanks again to dr lisa fulton
for coming to talk to us.
If you enjoyed this episode,consider leaving us a rating or
review on apple podcast orspotify, as those ratings and
reviews help us reach morepeople, which means more people
get to hear the anti-dietmessage.
We are also on instagram atsatisfaction factor pod.
Be sure to drop by and let usknow what you thought about the
(53:16):
episode that's it for us thisweek.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
We'll catch you next time.
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