April 30, 2024 • 27 mins
EPISODE SUMMARY
Launching a software startup is like embarking on a journey into the unknown, with twists and turns that can often be as exhilarating as they are daunting. Graham Curry, founder of Handicaddie, shares his insights from the rollercoaster ride of startup life, offering valuable lessons for fellow founders and aspiring entrepreneurs with host and B2B SaaS Sales Coach Matt Wolach in this week’s Scale Your SaaS episode.
PODCAST-AT-A-GLANCE
Podcast: Scale Your SaaS with Matt Wolach
Episode: Episode No. 314, “How to Get Your Startup Early Traction - with Graham Curry”
Guest: Graham Curry, Founder of Handicaddie
Host: Matt Wolach, a B2B SaaS Sales Coach, Entrepreneur, and Investor
Sponsored by: Leadfeeder
TOP TIPS FROM THIS EPISODE
- Weathering the Seasonal Storms
- The Power of Persistence
- Embracing the Journey
EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS
- The Journey Begins: Identifying the Problem
- From Idea to Execution: The Early Hurdles
- Conclusion: The Path Forward
TOP QUOTES
Graham Curry
[07:11] "Success isn't just about achieving lofty milestones or hitting financial targets; it's about embracing the process and deriving fulfillment from the pursuit of a passion."
[10:52] "Every challenge is an opportunity for growth, and every step forward, no matter how small, is a victory in itself."
[22:52] “Persistence is so important. If you don’t give up, you either die trying or you find the solution.”
Matt Wolach
[20:02] "Pricing can make or break a company; it's essential to approach it with a strategic mindset and a deep understanding of customer needs."
LEARN MORE
To learn more about Handicaddie, visit: https://www.handicaddie.com/
You can also find Graham Curry on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/graham-curry-handicaddie/
For more about how Matt Wolach helps software companies achieve maximum growth, visit https://mattwolach.com.
Head over to leadfeeder.com and sign up for a 14-day (no strings attached) free trial: https://www.leadfeeder.com/
Get even more tips by following Matt elsewhere:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Wolach (00:05):
And welcome to Scale Your SaaS Thank you very
much for being here. I amdelighted to have you join us
because what we're here to do ishelp you grow your software
company, whether it's generate alot of new leads, know how to
close those leads, and scaleyour team so that you can have
other people doing it for you.
We're gonna help scale your SaaSand each week I bring in an
awesome guest who's either aSaaS founder or somebody helping
(00:27):
SaaS founders, so they can sharetheir experience and their
knowledge with you so that youcan grow. If you want those
things, hit subscribe right nowthat way you're subscribed to
the show, you'll get all theupdates and notifications when
we bring in awesome guests, andamazing people and put them in
front of you. And one of thoseamazing people happens to be
also one of my clients, theamazing Graham Curry. Graham,
(00:48):
welcome.
Graham Curry (00:52):
Hi, everyone.
Great to be here. Matt pleasureto come on your show, I guess
following being on your coachingprogram. So yeah, looking
forward to dive in and hopefullyshare some of the learnings that
you have kindly shared to meduring the program
Matt Wolach (01:07):
fantastic. And I've really have had a good time
working with you. And justseeing how quickly you can take
things and implement them andgrow. It's been a lot of fun.
But I want to make sureeverybody knows who you are
Graham. So let me introduce youa little bit. So Graham, he is
the founder of Handicaddie. Thisis a software that dramatically
reduces the administrativeburden for caddy scheduling at
(01:28):
Top Golf clubs around the world.
As a big time golfer as soon asI met Graham and I knew this was
his product. I was like soentrenched in the idea of
working with him because it'ssuch a cool idea. He did this he
learned this from being a caddyand a caddy master himself for
the last 10 years in Irish andScottish golf courses, including
kingsbarns Golf Links, andCastle Rock golf club, gram has
identified an excitingopportunity to provide a digital
(01:52):
solution to help staffstreamline how their caddy
program is run. So it's reallycool what he's been able to do.
And by the way, I've seen someof his conversations in his
demos and such these people lovethis thing. He's done a great
job of taking this idea,creating the product, and
getting people around the worldto start using this thing. He's
(02:14):
also the host of the Future ofGolf podcast. So definitely
check that out The Future ofGolf podcast, a lot of cool
stuff. But Graham, thanks forbeing on the show.
Graham Curry (02:24):
Yeah, I think you've sold me a lot better than
I would sell myself, Matt. Soyou've definitely teed up the
intro, and obviously, yeah,being a fellow golfer as well. I
think that was one of the thingsthat definitely appealed to me
and working with you that you'reyou're in the golf industry. And
we could kind of riff on thosethings as well. I know you're
talking about playing a fewcourses that we're hopefully
(02:45):
going to work with next year aswell. So hopefully, I can
actually directly help you outas well, which would be cool.
Matt Wolach (02:51):
Yeah, it'd be amazing for my name to pop up in
your program under your caddyscheduling and all that. That'd
be, that'd be a lot of fun. Buttell me what's been what's been
going on with you lately? Andwhat do you have coming up?
Graham Curry (03:01):
Yeah, well, this is our busy time of the year,
right now, Matt. Because thegolf season, as you well know,
is a finite period in many partsof the world. So typically,
you're talking from April toOctober is the real hot season
for golf, especially forfairweather golfers, like
myself, who typically go andthat shirts like this, and
(03:21):
shorts. So right now, becausewe've had a good period of
winter where our sales hasreally progressed, thanks for
your help. And reallyformalizing the sales process.
We're now actually facing theopposite problem of we've got a
ton of onboarding to do. And nowour focus is actually fulfilling
those customer requests, dealingwith things of people actually
(03:42):
coming on, and like littleteething onboarding problems.
But I think we're actually sograteful to have those problems,
because it was very much theopposite last year, and that it
was just purely outreachfocused, obviously, a lot less
demand than what we have now.
But I actually put a post onLinkedIn about this the other
day, I feel like we'retransitioning out of the period
(04:03):
where it's just outreach, andit's almost using brute force to
get your first 10 customers, Ifeel like we've passed that now.
And now I'm really in the periodof, you know, identifying our
ideal customer profile and justbeing like, super focused for
that specific group, and reallyfocusing on you know, what
features we need to build out tojust give them the best
(04:25):
experience on our product. Soyeah, from a very high level all
is always moving right now andgoing in the right direction.
Matt Wolach (04:34):
So fun, such an energizing and fun time when
you're building a softwareprogram that you've gotten past
that kind of initial hurdle ofWe just put a lot of work in is
Is anybody actually going togive us money for this thing?
You're past that you've got somegood clients, you've been able
to generate some great interest.
So, you know, like you said,it's a fortunate problem to have
they say once you've reached anew level, you have a new devil.
(04:56):
There's another problem that weneed to overcome. And you're
right, initially, it's holy cow,we need leads, we need somebody
actually come see this thing.
And then it's like, okay, we'vegot business, how do we onboard
all these people? How do we makeit happen? And it's kind of
crazy how your mind has to shifta little bit, right?
Graham Curry (05:13):
Yeah. And it's also the different emotional
test that that puts you through.
So, initially, my challenge wasobviously, just the actual
output that you have to do. Soit's just, can you sit on a
chair and write out 50 emails ordo 50 cold calls? And now it's
like, it still is that to adegree, of course, like volume
of output, there has to be acertain discipline to that, but
(05:34):
it's also, you know, it's morestrategic now, in terms of,
okay, we've got a club that saysthey want to use it. But is this
actually a club we want to takeon based on the constraints that
we've identified in our ICP? Andobviously me being in sales, I'm
like, hell yeah, it's anotherfive or 10k annual recurring
revenue. And I mean, it takes alot of discipline for me to say,
(05:58):
perhaps it might not be. I'mlike, I'm not perfect at that.
I'm still getting better at thatfor sure. But my software team
keeps me disciplined in that aswell, whenever their product
requests keep going up and upand up. So yeah, trying to get
better that every day.
Matt Wolach (06:17):
Yeah, I mean, knowing your ICP and making sure
you stick to your ICP is reallycritical for anybody out there
wondering what we're talkingabout ICP, that's ideal customer
profile, your perfect customer,somebody who fits exactly who's
going to get a lot of value outof using your product and
somebody you want to work withand sell to. So that's what
we're talking about. And it'scritical. It's like one of the
first things we need to do. Butyou're right Graham, sticking to
(06:38):
it, and actually making surethat you only sell to those
people can be a challenge. But Iactually want to take us way
back. Now I know you're in thisgrowth mindset. You're doing
great with it. But how didHandicaddie get started? Where
did this whole thing come from?
Graham Curry (06:53):
Yeah, Wow. So I mean, I started playing golf
when I was 13. And it wasactually it was strange, because
no one in my family actuallyplays golf. And it was actually
one of my friends. I rememberthe day so vividly. We're all
playing football or soccer as itwould be called in America. And
so we were just going about ourbusiness and one of our friends
(07:16):
had played golf for the last sixmonths and said, Do you want to
try it? And we were actuallyquite reluctant to start off we
were like, nah, that's for likeold people. And and then we
said, Fine, we'll go along. Sothink we went to the driving
range was like a few rusty threeirons, like one of the bladed
like butter knife three ironsthat you get back in the 70s
(07:37):
from like a garage sale orsomething. And obviously, like
hit terrible shot, terribleshot. And I think I had one that
was like reasonable that went100 yards, and that like
sensation that goes through yourhands of just pure pleasure. I
was like, Oh, damn, I think Iactually want to do this for a
little bit. So then that startedmy journey of becoming a member
(07:58):
at a golf club. So I played at acourse called Castle Rock, which
is one of the probably one ofthe premier venues in Ireland
and situated beside an OpenChampionship venue called Royal
Portrush, which is where ShaneLowrey won his open for any
golfers out there. And thenbecause I played at a golf club,
when you're a young member of agolf club, there typically is
(08:19):
opportunities to caddy and towork for visitors. So in
Ireland, it was actually takencare of a lot of Americans that
are on their holidays, andthey're they're on a tour. Maybe
they're doing like a whiskeytour of Ireland, and they've
fitted in a bit of golf orperhaps vice versa. And then
that gave me the experience ofthe Caddying industry. So that
was a phenomenal job because itcombined my passion, you know, I
(08:42):
was on a golf course, I wasreally happy. And also give me
great insight into your peopleskills, like you actually have
to entertain. As a 14 year old,you have to entertain what might
be this really wealthybusinessman for five hours on a
golf course. How does yourconversational skills stack up
to that? And you know, you'relike, as a 14 year old, your
small talk skills are next tozero. So I had to learn very
(09:05):
fast and become genuinelyinterested in the person. And
usually, you know, walking downthe first fairway, you can gauge
what kind of person that islike, Is it someone that, you
know, is a bit introverted andjust wants to speak to his grip?
Or is it someone that's here todrink 10 beers and have a laugh,
and then you kind of go alongwith that. So that was obviously
(09:25):
a learning phase. And I learnedhow the caddying industry
operated through that next fiveyears.
Matt Wolach (09:31):
Can I pause you right there? Because that's
really interesting what you justsaid. So that process when
you're 14 of learning how tosmall talk, learning how to
identify people and understandwhat type of person they were
really quickly, are those skillsthat you still use today in your
sales?
Graham Curry (09:48):
I would hope so.
Yeah. I think one thing that Ilearned from that definitely
that I can apply was justempathy, like understanding what
a customer wants out of aservice and like, I guess it
kind of goes back to thediscovery side of it. Like, I
guess that was like a microversion of discovery. I remember
asking them down the fairway,like, "What are you hoping to
(10:09):
get out of this round?", perhapsin a less formal way than not,
but they would either say, I'mjust here for like, bit of fun
and like, you know, like, justhave fun with my buddies, or I'm
here to try and break the courserecord on I need every specific
line. So then based on theirneeds, then you tailor your
service to that. So that's agreat point. Actually, I've
(10:30):
never considered it that way.
Matt Wolach (10:33):
Yeah I mean, it sounds like it. I know. You're
very good at that now. Soobviously, you had to cut your
teeth and learn all thatsomewhere. That's really cool
that that's where it happened.
Okay, so I stopped you in yourjourney. Go ahead and continue.
Graham Curry (10:44):
So obviously, at 19 years old, I was I was still
caddying. I was at Universitythat time. So I again, I had no
idea what I wanted to do atUniversity. So I just picked
business management, I thought,it's not going to rule me out of
any career path. So I think it'sa general degree, I'll go with
that. And it was a actually likea train journey coming down from
(11:07):
Belfast to my home place in thenorth of Ireland. And I was
going to like entrepreneurialevents, and I didn't have an
idea for a business at the time.
And I think I knew at that pointthat I was interested in
startups, but I just didn't havethat moment of inspiration. And
I remember I listened to a talkand I can't remember who it was.
But they they mentioned thattypically, startup ideas come
(11:28):
from problems that youexperienced in your day to day
life. So I remember in thattrain journey, I kind of took a
bit of an audit of my life andidentified where the problems
were occurring. And then wheremy passion was. And there was
just this massively obvious gapin golf where I was like, this
is something I'm reallyfrustrated about in terms of, I
(11:48):
don't have any guarantee on jobsI'm getting, I know that the
process is painful for golfclubs, because they have a list
of 100 Guys, and they're makingfour hours of phone calls every
day. And then I actually did aplacement whenever I was in
school, when I was like 17, Iworked in a pro shop for a while
in a golf club. And I reallyenjoyed that process. And I
(12:12):
thought, if I can combine golfon business, at some point in my
life, I thought that would begreat. So to have that idea,
early on, I think was a realblessing, as obviously it
allowed me to pursue that forthe next couple of years.
Matt Wolach (12:28):
I love it. That's so so cool. It's just such a fun
story. And I can tell that it'sjust such a big part of you and
who you are. And when you cancreate a company and a platform
coming out of something thatyou've experienced, it just
means that much more. It's justso cool. So well done on that I
want to understand. So you gotit launched. How were those
early days, like, Okay, we builtthis thing now what, like, what
(12:52):
happened? How'd you get throughthat?
Graham Curry (12:53):
Yeah, well, the building phase was a really
interesting one and getting ourfirst few customers. So I
actually, I'm not the technicalside of this, I'm very much the
sales side of it. So you know, Ihad an idea for a product, I'd
wireframe that out. So foranyone that doesn't know what
that is, there's wireframingtools like figma or Adobe XD,
(13:14):
that's taking it from like apaper sketch to what looks like
an app, but actually isn't anapp. And we showed a golf club
in Ireland, and they reallyliked it. And they said, great,
our season starts in 10 weeks.
If you can build that out forus, then we'll use it. And I
gathered some funding from fromdifferent sources. And I just
sat there going like, how am Igoing to build this thing in 10
(13:36):
weeks, and just out of completeluck. I don't know how this
happened. But about two dayslater, a guy direct messaged me
on LinkedIn After I reached andsaid, I'm looking for a software
engineer for this project. Sothis guy was working with this
club currently, and he ran theirShopify store for their members.
(13:56):
So obviously, this was duringthe pandemic. So they were
selling all their merchandiseonline. So he ran the Shopify
store for them and had a greatrelationship with that club
already. And fact, such a greatrelationship that the guy
working in the pro shop was thebest man at his wedding. Friends
originally, it turns out, sothis guy, Jimmy, who's my co
(14:17):
founder if he's bothering towatch this, his mother, and my
mother were very friendly.
Growing up. He actually went tomy school, and he played at my
home golf club, and I'd nevermet him in my life. So it was
just this crazy scenario. Andthen we said, we got to book a
(14:39):
round of golf and actuallyfigure this out. So we played
our home course Castle Rock andin the end of the ride, we said,
okay, let's let's do this. Let'sactually give this a go. So 10
weeks of getting our head downand building a very sketchy,
minimum viable product, and thenget into the hands of the users.
And then once our Glasgow clubwho was our first customer.
(15:00):
After them, we got four prettyquickly just from their
referrals from their experience.
And obviously, our product wassuper simple at that stage. So
we thought, you know, we knowwhat this could potentially be.
And this is a super scrappyversion of it. So then I think
that gives us the motivation tosay, you know, let's, let's
really pursue this as a careerand try and get the next next 10
customers on, you know,
Matt Wolach (15:23):
so cool. I love the story to it, having a strong
partner is a big deal, isn't it?
Graham Curry (15:29):
Right, like, you know, I worked in this for
probably about a year and a halfon my own. And honestly, I was
19. So I didn't really know whatI was doing. And it was more of
research gathering. I did a bitof a road trip around Ireland,
where I actually drove up to theclubs and like, cold approached
them and just asked them aboutthe problem. It was nice just to
play golf everywhere, to behonest. But yeah, like having
(15:54):
someone especially with asoftware and a really logical
head on their shoulders to comeback to with issues. And also
it's, you know, yourself, it'slike the emotional supportive of
going through this as well likesomeone to be there for you, you
know, 90% of it is going to bethose tough times when you're
really figuring it out. But thenit also makes it sweeter when
(16:15):
you do get a big deal that youhave someone to go back and say,
Hey, today's went really well,you know, so it's an extra
journey. Double fun.
Matt Wolach (16:24):
Yeah, no doubt. And it's so cool, because I know
you're just telling your story.
But there are so many lessons wecan get out of this story. First
of all, you have to meet yourcustomers, you have to learn
from your customers, what arethey hearing? What is their
feeling? What are they goingthrough? What keeps them up at
night? What are their goals, andyou went out and did that you
went out and drove to them. Ofcourse, you had the excuse to
play golf, but you went and metyour customers and started
(16:46):
having these conversations withyour perfect ideal fit
customers. You also have to havegreat partners, you had a great
partner on board, you have to beable to share with others what
you do, you were posting onLinkedIn, and you just found
your partner that way. Andothers I'm sure have also come
to you that way. But there's somany things that I teach that
you did naturally, which isfantastic. But I'm glad you're
(17:09):
sharing it because a lot ofpeople out there listening might
not have done this naturally.
But sometimes we fall into greatideas. I'm not saying that you
didn't know anything you weredoing. But sometimes you just do
things and it happens to workgreat. And looking back, you can
see how big of an effect thatthat was. And it's so cool about
(17:31):
some of these awesome decisionsthat you made that helped you
get to where you are now. And Idon't know if you can see that
Graham Curry (17:38):
Yeah. Right. And I mean, I look back and I look at
the way I see it.
the first year and a half, andit was very much doing things
instinctually based on what Ifelt was right. Like I wasn't
engrossed in theentrepreneurship space, my
knowledge was very limited. Soit was just instinctively
reacting to like human behaviorin terms of like supply demand,
(18:01):
like like, why would this personwant to use this product? And
then kind of fundamentallyreverse engineering that to what
I need to do then. But I mean,if I knew it, I mean, obviously,
you can say this, in hindsight,but I wish do I wish I could go
back, maybe not. But there'sobviously things I could have
done that would have sped up theprocess significantly. And
(18:24):
obviously, there was a pandemicin between that where Golf was
completely shut. So there was noreal possibility of getting
users. But I'm actually I'mgrateful for that time as well,
because it allowed me to matureand understand what the product
actually needed to be. I don'tthink I was ready to launch an
app at that point. And then thatactually coincided with me
(18:45):
leaving college at the time. Sothen I had more time to invest
in it. So you can say it's allworked out. But obviously I'm
still right in the middle of theprocess as well. So it's worked
out to date so far.
Matt Wolach (18:57):
Yeah, I mean, you're doing great. You're on
your way up. And it's reallycool to see one thing I want to
ask you about, you talked abouthow of course golf in many areas
of the world. It's seasonal. Andso that creates a big challenge
for you selling to these golfcourses. In fact, lots of people
have an app have a softwareplatform that they're selling to
(19:17):
an industry that's veryseasonal, how have you handled
it to this point, and what aresome of your focuses around,
Maybe, do you do go with it? Doyou try to make it more flat
throughout the year? What do youdo?
Graham Curry (19:29):
Yeah, it's a good question. And especially for us
starting out, because our focuswas very narrow on the UK and
Ireland market where it is, as avery seasonal business. April to
October will be what the golfseason is. So honestly, we
didn't find it starting off. Wejust said our pricing was
actually usage based at thattime. So you pretty much paid
(19:52):
for each job you put in thesystem. So our revenue actually
was seasonal at that time. Therewas no there was no winter
revenue for the first 12 months,which was kind of tough because
you get through the season andyou're like, here we go for the
next six months.
It was like, yeah, it was like asquirrel gathering their nuts
(20:14):
for the whole season. Weactually, it was actually a few
months ago. So we got clients inAmerica recently enough, and
they're not seasonal, which isgreat. So it's obviously a year
round revenue. We've actuallygot a customer I mentioned for
the podcast and Thailand. Andobviously, the weather there,
they almost nearly don't haveseasons, it's just mid 20
(20:37):
degrees or whatever, 75 degreesFahrenheit in US. And they're
just, they're constant. Andthey're actually really busy
caddy programs as well. Sothat'd be one of our highest MRR
customers for revenue, weactually had another idea in
terms of our pricing strategy.
And I was actually through withthe fast action discount that
you mentioned. So we, we stilloffer usage based pricing if
(21:01):
clubs want to do it that way.
But we also offer a discount ontheir rates if they want to pay
upfront. So let's say forexample, a golf club does 10,000
caddy runs per year. So we'llsay at x price provide. But if
you want to pay up front, we'llgive you 25% discount on that
(21:22):
rate and just talking to my teamthere, we got four upfront
payments from that in the wintermonths. So ironically, we've
actually generated more thiswinter than we did the entire
last summer, because we've gotincentive there for people to
pay up front. And, you know,we're not worried about churn
whenever they come on ourretention rates pretty high. So
(21:45):
we don't worry about themleaving, but it's just, it's
obviously great to have thatupfront cash flow, especially at
this stage with cash flow is soimportant. So that's why we've
tackled it at the minute.
Matt Wolach (21:56):
Yeah, what a smart way to overcome that
seasonality. Did you everbelieve that your winter revenue
would beat the summer?
Graham Curry (22:03):
I had no idea. I can't take credit for this idea.
Again, this was Jimmy, my cofounder, perhaps we should put
him in sales because that was ablinder of an idea.
Matt Wolach (22:12):
So hey, great ideas can come from anywhere. It's
awesome.
Graham Curry (22:16):
Thats it. And I think, going to your point as
well, I think you mentioned thateveryone in your organization is
in sales in some degree,especially in our organization,
whereas it is a lot of in personcontact and conferences and
things like that. So for him tokind of take on that role as
well and not just be a softwarehead was was very helpful for
(22:38):
that idea.
Matt Wolach (22:40):
I love it. I love it. So cool. Okay, so as we wrap
up, I want to understand whatadvice would you have for other
software founders who are inthose early days trying to gain
traction? What would you sharewith them?
Graham Curry (22:52):
Yeah, I've thought about this a lot over the last
few months. And I believegenuinely that persistence is
just so important. I think thatis the underlying bed of
everything you do. Becausefundamentally, if you don't give
up, you either, genuinely youdie trying, or you will find a
(23:12):
solution. So actually, I wrote apost about this on LinkedIn, but
it was just my thoughts and whatit is like to run a startup in
the early days. And I thinklike, it's almost reframing your
success to say that survivingand running the business is
success, actually keeping thething alive and still doing it
as your career, you're alreadysuccessful. Because that's what
(23:36):
you've wanted to do for yourjob, you're not stuck in this
corporate job that you don'twant to do, you're actually
following your passion. So thetwo outcomes of that will either
be the business works, or youwill learn the lessons as a
person that you can then applyto your next venture. So
provided you just stay thecourse there actually really is
(23:56):
no bad outcome to a degree. AndI think that's given me a little
bit of assurance that regardlessof how this turns out,
obviously, it's looking goodright now, but you never know in
the startup world that youthere's just so many lessons
personally, from theperseverance side of it to the
empathy side of it, youmentioned about learning about
(24:17):
customers and learning howhumans interact and learn how to
sell. I mean, sales is the mostuniversal skill, we apply it in
every element of our life. Sobeing able to learn that
fundamentally will improve thequality of my life further on
regardless. So I think, youknow, I'm guilty of this at
times as well. You lump thispressure on yourself and say,
(24:39):
it's either this startup has towork or and then you spiral down
and say I'm gonna have to get areal job and things like that.
But it's always saying like,simply by following the process
and commit to yourself, you'vealready succeeded, and the
results will show so I would Iit's almost more emotional
support I would give to peopleI've just say Just follow the
(25:00):
process and you'll either learnor when one of the two will
occur. I sound very wise there.
Matt Wolach (25:06):
you do that's amazing. Like we need to put
that on a plaque or something'sbrilliant. Well, cool, Graham,
this is so awesome. I reallyappreciate you coming in and
sharing all this with us. Howcan the audience learn more
about you and Handicaddie?
Graham Curry (25:20):
Yes. So very simply, I'm quite active on
LinkedIn. So if you want toconnect with me, it's just
Graham Curry. It's, it'll say,find your Handicaddie. So
connect with me there. And ifyou want to check out the site,
it's just handicaddie.com foranyone in the golf industry will
be happy to show you.
Matt Wolach (25:37):
Okay, perfect.
We'll put all that into the shownotes. So if you're listening or
watching, you'll be able to graball that there. But Graham,
thanks so much for coming in andsharing all this.
Graham Curry (25:45):
Yeah, I appreciate your time, Matt, thanks for
having me on. It was a blast.
Matt Wolach (25:48):
Absolutely.
Likewise, and everybody outthere thank you for being here.
I appreciate you watching andlistening. Again, make sure that
you're subscribed because wehave a lot of amazing guests
coming up in the next few weeksfor you and you do not want to
miss like what Graham justshared was incredible his
journey you can definitely use alot of what he's learned so that
you can apply it to your ownbusiness. Others like him are
coming up. Make sure yousubscribe so you don't miss out.
And we will see you next time.
(26:10):
Take care. Bye bye
And welcome to Scale Your SaaS Thank you very
much for being here. I amdelighted to have you join us
because what we're here to do ishelp you grow your software
company, whether it's generate alot of new leads, know how to
close those leads, and scaleyour team so that you can have
other people doing it for you.
We're gonna help scale your SaaSand each week I bring in an
awesome guest who's either aSaaS founder or somebody helping
(00:27):
SaaS founders, so they can sharetheir experience and their
knowledge with you so that youcan grow. If you want those
things, hit subscribe right nowthat way you're subscribed to
the show, you'll get all theupdates and notifications when
we bring in awesome guests, andamazing people and put them in
front of you. And one of thoseamazing people happens to be
also one of my clients, theamazing Graham Curry. Graham,
(00:48):
welcome.
Graham Curry (00:52):
Hi, everyone.
Great to be here. Matt pleasureto come on your show, I guess
following being on your coachingprogram. So yeah, looking
forward to dive in and hopefullyshare some of the learnings that
you have kindly shared to meduring the program
Matt Wolach (01:07):
fantastic. And I've really have had a good time
working with you. And justseeing how quickly you can take
things and implement them andgrow. It's been a lot of fun.
But I want to make sureeverybody knows who you are
Graham. So let me introduce youa little bit. So Graham, he is
the founder of Handicaddie. Thisis a software that dramatically
reduces the administrativeburden for caddy scheduling at
(01:28):
Top Golf clubs around the world.
As a big time golfer as soon asI met Graham and I knew this was
his product. I was like soentrenched in the idea of
working with him because it'ssuch a cool idea. He did this he
learned this from being a caddyand a caddy master himself for
the last 10 years in Irish andScottish golf courses, including
kingsbarns Golf Links, andCastle Rock golf club, gram has
identified an excitingopportunity to provide a digital
(01:52):
solution to help staffstreamline how their caddy
program is run. So it's reallycool what he's been able to do.
And by the way, I've seen someof his conversations in his
demos and such these people lovethis thing. He's done a great
job of taking this idea,creating the product, and
getting people around the worldto start using this thing. He's
(02:14):
also the host of the Future ofGolf podcast. So definitely
check that out The Future ofGolf podcast, a lot of cool
stuff. But Graham, thanks forbeing on the show.
Graham Curry (02:24):
Yeah, I think you've sold me a lot better than
I would sell myself, Matt. Soyou've definitely teed up the
intro, and obviously, yeah,being a fellow golfer as well. I
think that was one of the thingsthat definitely appealed to me
and working with you that you'reyou're in the golf industry. And
we could kind of riff on thosethings as well. I know you're
talking about playing a fewcourses that we're hopefully
(02:45):
going to work with next year aswell. So hopefully, I can
actually directly help you outas well, which would be cool.
Matt Wolach (02:51):
Yeah, it'd be amazing for my name to pop up in
your program under your caddyscheduling and all that. That'd
be, that'd be a lot of fun. Buttell me what's been what's been
going on with you lately? Andwhat do you have coming up?
Graham Curry (03:01):
Yeah, well, this is our busy time of the year,
right now, Matt. Because thegolf season, as you well know,
is a finite period in many partsof the world. So typically,
you're talking from April toOctober is the real hot season
for golf, especially forfairweather golfers, like
myself, who typically go andthat shirts like this, and
(03:21):
shorts. So right now, becausewe've had a good period of
winter where our sales hasreally progressed, thanks for
your help. And reallyformalizing the sales process.
We're now actually facing theopposite problem of we've got a
ton of onboarding to do. And nowour focus is actually fulfilling
those customer requests, dealingwith things of people actually
(03:42):
coming on, and like littleteething onboarding problems.
But I think we're actually sograteful to have those problems,
because it was very much theopposite last year, and that it
was just purely outreachfocused, obviously, a lot less
demand than what we have now.
But I actually put a post onLinkedIn about this the other
day, I feel like we'retransitioning out of the period
(04:03):
where it's just outreach, andit's almost using brute force to
get your first 10 customers, Ifeel like we've passed that now.
And now I'm really in the periodof, you know, identifying our
ideal customer profile and justbeing like, super focused for
that specific group, and reallyfocusing on you know, what
features we need to build out tojust give them the best
(04:25):
experience on our product. Soyeah, from a very high level all
is always moving right now andgoing in the right direction.
Matt Wolach (04:34):
So fun, such an energizing and fun time when
you're building a softwareprogram that you've gotten past
that kind of initial hurdle ofWe just put a lot of work in is
Is anybody actually going togive us money for this thing?
You're past that you've got somegood clients, you've been able
to generate some great interest.
So, you know, like you said,it's a fortunate problem to have
they say once you've reached anew level, you have a new devil.
(04:56):
There's another problem that weneed to overcome. And you're
right, initially, it's holy cow,we need leads, we need somebody
actually come see this thing.
And then it's like, okay, we'vegot business, how do we onboard
all these people? How do we makeit happen? And it's kind of
crazy how your mind has to shifta little bit, right?
Graham Curry (05:13):
Yeah. And it's also the different emotional
test that that puts you through.
So, initially, my challenge wasobviously, just the actual
output that you have to do. Soit's just, can you sit on a
chair and write out 50 emails ordo 50 cold calls? And now it's
like, it still is that to adegree, of course, like volume
of output, there has to be acertain discipline to that, but
(05:34):
it's also, you know, it's morestrategic now, in terms of,
okay, we've got a club that saysthey want to use it. But is this
actually a club we want to takeon based on the constraints that
we've identified in our ICP? Andobviously me being in sales, I'm
like, hell yeah, it's anotherfive or 10k annual recurring
revenue. And I mean, it takes alot of discipline for me to say,
(05:58):
perhaps it might not be. I'mlike, I'm not perfect at that.
I'm still getting better at thatfor sure. But my software team
keeps me disciplined in that aswell, whenever their product
requests keep going up and upand up. So yeah, trying to get
better that every day.
Matt Wolach (06:17):
Yeah, I mean, knowing your ICP and making sure
you stick to your ICP is reallycritical for anybody out there
wondering what we're talkingabout ICP, that's ideal customer
profile, your perfect customer,somebody who fits exactly who's
going to get a lot of value outof using your product and
somebody you want to work withand sell to. So that's what
we're talking about. And it'scritical. It's like one of the
first things we need to do. Butyou're right Graham, sticking to
(06:38):
it, and actually making surethat you only sell to those
people can be a challenge. But Iactually want to take us way
back. Now I know you're in thisgrowth mindset. You're doing
great with it. But how didHandicaddie get started? Where
did this whole thing come from?
Graham Curry (06:53):
Yeah, Wow. So I mean, I started playing golf
when I was 13. And it wasactually it was strange, because
no one in my family actuallyplays golf. And it was actually
one of my friends. I rememberthe day so vividly. We're all
playing football or soccer as itwould be called in America. And
so we were just going about ourbusiness and one of our friends
(07:16):
had played golf for the last sixmonths and said, Do you want to
try it? And we were actuallyquite reluctant to start off we
were like, nah, that's for likeold people. And and then we
said, Fine, we'll go along. Sothink we went to the driving
range was like a few rusty threeirons, like one of the bladed
like butter knife three ironsthat you get back in the 70s
(07:37):
from like a garage sale orsomething. And obviously, like
hit terrible shot, terribleshot. And I think I had one that
was like reasonable that went100 yards, and that like
sensation that goes through yourhands of just pure pleasure. I
was like, Oh, damn, I think Iactually want to do this for a
little bit. So then that startedmy journey of becoming a member
(07:58):
at a golf club. So I played at acourse called Castle Rock, which
is one of the probably one ofthe premier venues in Ireland
and situated beside an OpenChampionship venue called Royal
Portrush, which is where ShaneLowrey won his open for any
golfers out there. And thenbecause I played at a golf club,
when you're a young member of agolf club, there typically is
(08:19):
opportunities to caddy and towork for visitors. So in
Ireland, it was actually takencare of a lot of Americans that
are on their holidays, andthey're they're on a tour. Maybe
they're doing like a whiskeytour of Ireland, and they've
fitted in a bit of golf orperhaps vice versa. And then
that gave me the experience ofthe Caddying industry. So that
was a phenomenal job because itcombined my passion, you know, I
(08:42):
was on a golf course, I wasreally happy. And also give me
great insight into your peopleskills, like you actually have
to entertain. As a 14 year old,you have to entertain what might
be this really wealthybusinessman for five hours on a
golf course. How does yourconversational skills stack up
to that? And you know, you'relike, as a 14 year old, your
small talk skills are next tozero. So I had to learn very
(09:05):
fast and become genuinelyinterested in the person. And
usually, you know, walking downthe first fairway, you can gauge
what kind of person that islike, Is it someone that, you
know, is a bit introverted andjust wants to speak to his grip?
Or is it someone that's here todrink 10 beers and have a laugh,
and then you kind of go alongwith that. So that was obviously
(09:25):
a learning phase. And I learnedhow the caddying industry
operated through that next fiveyears.
Matt Wolach (09:31):
Can I pause you right there? Because that's
really interesting what you justsaid. So that process when
you're 14 of learning how tosmall talk, learning how to
identify people and understandwhat type of person they were
really quickly, are those skillsthat you still use today in your
sales?
Graham Curry (09:48):
I would hope so.
Yeah. I think one thing that Ilearned from that definitely
that I can apply was justempathy, like understanding what
a customer wants out of aservice and like, I guess it
kind of goes back to thediscovery side of it. Like, I
guess that was like a microversion of discovery. I remember
asking them down the fairway,like, "What are you hoping to
(10:09):
get out of this round?", perhapsin a less formal way than not,
but they would either say, I'mjust here for like, bit of fun
and like, you know, like, justhave fun with my buddies, or I'm
here to try and break the courserecord on I need every specific
line. So then based on theirneeds, then you tailor your
service to that. So that's agreat point. Actually, I've
(10:30):
never considered it that way.
Matt Wolach (10:33):
Yeah I mean, it sounds like it. I know. You're
very good at that now. Soobviously, you had to cut your
teeth and learn all thatsomewhere. That's really cool
that that's where it happened.
Okay, so I stopped you in yourjourney. Go ahead and continue.
Graham Curry (10:44):
So obviously, at 19 years old, I was I was still
caddying. I was at Universitythat time. So I again, I had no
idea what I wanted to do atUniversity. So I just picked
business management, I thought,it's not going to rule me out of
any career path. So I think it'sa general degree, I'll go with
that. And it was a actually likea train journey coming down from
(11:07):
Belfast to my home place in thenorth of Ireland. And I was
going to like entrepreneurialevents, and I didn't have an
idea for a business at the time.
And I think I knew at that pointthat I was interested in
startups, but I just didn't havethat moment of inspiration. And
I remember I listened to a talkand I can't remember who it was.
But they they mentioned thattypically, startup ideas come
(11:28):
from problems that youexperienced in your day to day
life. So I remember in thattrain journey, I kind of took a
bit of an audit of my life andidentified where the problems
were occurring. And then wheremy passion was. And there was
just this massively obvious gapin golf where I was like, this
is something I'm reallyfrustrated about in terms of, I
(11:48):
don't have any guarantee on jobsI'm getting, I know that the
process is painful for golfclubs, because they have a list
of 100 Guys, and they're makingfour hours of phone calls every
day. And then I actually did aplacement whenever I was in
school, when I was like 17, Iworked in a pro shop for a while
in a golf club. And I reallyenjoyed that process. And I
(12:12):
thought, if I can combine golfon business, at some point in my
life, I thought that would begreat. So to have that idea,
early on, I think was a realblessing, as obviously it
allowed me to pursue that forthe next couple of years.
Matt Wolach (12:28):
I love it. That's so so cool. It's just such a fun
story. And I can tell that it'sjust such a big part of you and
who you are. And when you cancreate a company and a platform
coming out of something thatyou've experienced, it just
means that much more. It's justso cool. So well done on that I
want to understand. So you gotit launched. How were those
early days, like, Okay, we builtthis thing now what, like, what
(12:52):
happened? How'd you get throughthat?
Graham Curry (12:53):
Yeah, well, the building phase was a really
interesting one and getting ourfirst few customers. So I
actually, I'm not the technicalside of this, I'm very much the
sales side of it. So you know, Ihad an idea for a product, I'd
wireframe that out. So foranyone that doesn't know what
that is, there's wireframingtools like figma or Adobe XD,
(13:14):
that's taking it from like apaper sketch to what looks like
an app, but actually isn't anapp. And we showed a golf club
in Ireland, and they reallyliked it. And they said, great,
our season starts in 10 weeks.
If you can build that out forus, then we'll use it. And I
gathered some funding from fromdifferent sources. And I just
sat there going like, how am Igoing to build this thing in 10
(13:36):
weeks, and just out of completeluck. I don't know how this
happened. But about two dayslater, a guy direct messaged me
on LinkedIn After I reached andsaid, I'm looking for a software
engineer for this project. Sothis guy was working with this
club currently, and he ran theirShopify store for their members.
(13:56):
So obviously, this was duringthe pandemic. So they were
selling all their merchandiseonline. So he ran the Shopify
store for them and had a greatrelationship with that club
already. And fact, such a greatrelationship that the guy
working in the pro shop was thebest man at his wedding. Friends
originally, it turns out, sothis guy, Jimmy, who's my co
(14:17):
founder if he's bothering towatch this, his mother, and my
mother were very friendly.
Growing up. He actually went tomy school, and he played at my
home golf club, and I'd nevermet him in my life. So it was
just this crazy scenario. Andthen we said, we got to book a
(14:39):
round of golf and actuallyfigure this out. So we played
our home course Castle Rock andin the end of the ride, we said,
okay, let's let's do this. Let'sactually give this a go. So 10
weeks of getting our head downand building a very sketchy,
minimum viable product, and thenget into the hands of the users.
And then once our Glasgow clubwho was our first customer.
(15:00):
After them, we got four prettyquickly just from their
referrals from their experience.
And obviously, our product wassuper simple at that stage. So
we thought, you know, we knowwhat this could potentially be.
And this is a super scrappyversion of it. So then I think
that gives us the motivation tosay, you know, let's, let's
really pursue this as a careerand try and get the next next 10
customers on, you know,
Matt Wolach (15:23):
so cool. I love the story to it, having a strong
partner is a big deal, isn't it?
Graham Curry (15:29):
Right, like, you know, I worked in this for
probably about a year and a halfon my own. And honestly, I was
19. So I didn't really know whatI was doing. And it was more of
research gathering. I did a bitof a road trip around Ireland,
where I actually drove up to theclubs and like, cold approached
them and just asked them aboutthe problem. It was nice just to
play golf everywhere, to behonest. But yeah, like having
(15:54):
someone especially with asoftware and a really logical
head on their shoulders to comeback to with issues. And also
it's, you know, yourself, it'slike the emotional supportive of
going through this as well likesomeone to be there for you, you
know, 90% of it is going to bethose tough times when you're
really figuring it out. But thenit also makes it sweeter when
(16:15):
you do get a big deal that youhave someone to go back and say,
Hey, today's went really well,you know, so it's an extra
journey. Double fun.
Matt Wolach (16:24):
Yeah, no doubt. And it's so cool, because I know
you're just telling your story.
But there are so many lessons wecan get out of this story. First
of all, you have to meet yourcustomers, you have to learn
from your customers, what arethey hearing? What is their
feeling? What are they goingthrough? What keeps them up at
night? What are their goals, andyou went out and did that you
went out and drove to them. Ofcourse, you had the excuse to
play golf, but you went and metyour customers and started
(16:46):
having these conversations withyour perfect ideal fit
customers. You also have to havegreat partners, you had a great
partner on board, you have to beable to share with others what
you do, you were posting onLinkedIn, and you just found
your partner that way. Andothers I'm sure have also come
to you that way. But there's somany things that I teach that
you did naturally, which isfantastic. But I'm glad you're
(17:09):
sharing it because a lot ofpeople out there listening might
not have done this naturally.
But sometimes we fall into greatideas. I'm not saying that you
didn't know anything you weredoing. But sometimes you just do
things and it happens to workgreat. And looking back, you can
see how big of an effect thatthat was. And it's so cool about
(17:31):
some of these awesome decisionsthat you made that helped you
get to where you are now. And Idon't know if you can see that
Graham Curry (17:38):
Yeah. Right. And I mean, I look back and I look at
the way I see it.
the first year and a half, andit was very much doing things
instinctually based on what Ifelt was right. Like I wasn't
engrossed in theentrepreneurship space, my
knowledge was very limited. Soit was just instinctively
reacting to like human behaviorin terms of like supply demand,
(18:01):
like like, why would this personwant to use this product? And
then kind of fundamentallyreverse engineering that to what
I need to do then. But I mean,if I knew it, I mean, obviously,
you can say this, in hindsight,but I wish do I wish I could go
back, maybe not. But there'sobviously things I could have
done that would have sped up theprocess significantly. And
(18:24):
obviously, there was a pandemicin between that where Golf was
completely shut. So there was noreal possibility of getting
users. But I'm actually I'mgrateful for that time as well,
because it allowed me to matureand understand what the product
actually needed to be. I don'tthink I was ready to launch an
app at that point. And then thatactually coincided with me
(18:45):
leaving college at the time. Sothen I had more time to invest
in it. So you can say it's allworked out. But obviously I'm
still right in the middle of theprocess as well. So it's worked
out to date so far.
Matt Wolach (18:57):
Yeah, I mean, you're doing great. You're on
your way up. And it's reallycool to see one thing I want to
ask you about, you talked abouthow of course golf in many areas
of the world. It's seasonal. Andso that creates a big challenge
for you selling to these golfcourses. In fact, lots of people
have an app have a softwareplatform that they're selling to
(19:17):
an industry that's veryseasonal, how have you handled
it to this point, and what aresome of your focuses around,
Maybe, do you do go with it? Doyou try to make it more flat
throughout the year? What do youdo?
Graham Curry (19:29):
Yeah, it's a good question. And especially for us
starting out, because our focuswas very narrow on the UK and
Ireland market where it is, as avery seasonal business. April to
October will be what the golfseason is. So honestly, we
didn't find it starting off. Wejust said our pricing was
actually usage based at thattime. So you pretty much paid
(19:52):
for each job you put in thesystem. So our revenue actually
was seasonal at that time. Therewas no there was no winter
revenue for the first 12 months,which was kind of tough because
you get through the season andyou're like, here we go for the
next six months.
It was like, yeah, it was like asquirrel gathering their nuts
(20:14):
for the whole season. Weactually, it was actually a few
months ago. So we got clients inAmerica recently enough, and
they're not seasonal, which isgreat. So it's obviously a year
round revenue. We've actuallygot a customer I mentioned for
the podcast and Thailand. Andobviously, the weather there,
they almost nearly don't haveseasons, it's just mid 20
(20:37):
degrees or whatever, 75 degreesFahrenheit in US. And they're
just, they're constant. Andthey're actually really busy
caddy programs as well. Sothat'd be one of our highest MRR
customers for revenue, weactually had another idea in
terms of our pricing strategy.
And I was actually through withthe fast action discount that
you mentioned. So we, we stilloffer usage based pricing if
(21:01):
clubs want to do it that way.
But we also offer a discount ontheir rates if they want to pay
upfront. So let's say forexample, a golf club does 10,000
caddy runs per year. So we'llsay at x price provide. But if
you want to pay up front, we'llgive you 25% discount on that
(21:22):
rate and just talking to my teamthere, we got four upfront
payments from that in the wintermonths. So ironically, we've
actually generated more thiswinter than we did the entire
last summer, because we've gotincentive there for people to
pay up front. And, you know,we're not worried about churn
whenever they come on ourretention rates pretty high. So
(21:45):
we don't worry about themleaving, but it's just, it's
obviously great to have thatupfront cash flow, especially at
this stage with cash flow is soimportant. So that's why we've
tackled it at the minute.
Matt Wolach (21:56):
Yeah, what a smart way to overcome that
seasonality. Did you everbelieve that your winter revenue
would beat the summer?
Graham Curry (22:03):
I had no idea. I can't take credit for this idea.
Again, this was Jimmy, my cofounder, perhaps we should put
him in sales because that was ablinder of an idea.
Matt Wolach (22:12):
So hey, great ideas can come from anywhere. It's
awesome.
Graham Curry (22:16):
Thats it. And I think, going to your point as
well, I think you mentioned thateveryone in your organization is
in sales in some degree,especially in our organization,
whereas it is a lot of in personcontact and conferences and
things like that. So for him tokind of take on that role as
well and not just be a softwarehead was was very helpful for
(22:38):
that idea.
Matt Wolach (22:40):
I love it. I love it. So cool. Okay, so as we wrap
up, I want to understand whatadvice would you have for other
software founders who are inthose early days trying to gain
traction? What would you sharewith them?
Graham Curry (22:52):
Yeah, I've thought about this a lot over the last
few months. And I believegenuinely that persistence is
just so important. I think thatis the underlying bed of
everything you do. Becausefundamentally, if you don't give
up, you either, genuinely youdie trying, or you will find a
(23:12):
solution. So actually, I wrote apost about this on LinkedIn, but
it was just my thoughts and whatit is like to run a startup in
the early days. And I thinklike, it's almost reframing your
success to say that survivingand running the business is
success, actually keeping thething alive and still doing it
as your career, you're alreadysuccessful. Because that's what
(23:36):
you've wanted to do for yourjob, you're not stuck in this
corporate job that you don'twant to do, you're actually
following your passion. So thetwo outcomes of that will either
be the business works, or youwill learn the lessons as a
person that you can then applyto your next venture. So
provided you just stay thecourse there actually really is
(23:56):
no bad outcome to a degree. AndI think that's given me a little
bit of assurance that regardlessof how this turns out,
obviously, it's looking goodright now, but you never know in
the startup world that youthere's just so many lessons
personally, from theperseverance side of it to the
empathy side of it, youmentioned about learning about
(24:17):
customers and learning howhumans interact and learn how to
sell. I mean, sales is the mostuniversal skill, we apply it in
every element of our life. Sobeing able to learn that
fundamentally will improve thequality of my life further on
regardless. So I think, youknow, I'm guilty of this at
times as well. You lump thispressure on yourself and say,
(24:39):
it's either this startup has towork or and then you spiral down
and say I'm gonna have to get areal job and things like that.
But it's always saying like,simply by following the process
and commit to yourself, you'vealready succeeded, and the
results will show so I would Iit's almost more emotional
support I would give to peopleI've just say Just follow the
(25:00):
process and you'll either learnor when one of the two will
occur. I sound very wise there.
Matt Wolach (25:06):
you do that's amazing. Like we need to put
that on a plaque or something'sbrilliant. Well, cool, Graham,
this is so awesome. I reallyappreciate you coming in and
sharing all this with us. Howcan the audience learn more
about you and Handicaddie?
Graham Curry (25:20):
Yes. So very simply, I'm quite active on
LinkedIn. So if you want toconnect with me, it's just
Graham Curry. It's, it'll say,find your Handicaddie. So
connect with me there. And ifyou want to check out the site,
it's just handicaddie.com foranyone in the golf industry will
be happy to show you.
Matt Wolach (25:37):
Okay, perfect.
We'll put all that into the shownotes. So if you're listening or
watching, you'll be able to graball that there. But Graham,
thanks so much for coming in andsharing all this.
Graham Curry (25:45):
Yeah, I appreciate your time, Matt, thanks for
having me on. It was a blast.
Matt Wolach (25:48):
Absolutely.
Likewise, and everybody outthere thank you for being here.
I appreciate you watching andlistening. Again, make sure that
you're subscribed because wehave a lot of amazing guests
coming up in the next few weeksfor you and you do not want to
miss like what Graham justshared was incredible his
journey you can definitely use alot of what he's learned so that
you can apply it to your ownbusiness. Others like him are
coming up. Make sure yousubscribe so you don't miss out.
And we will see you next time.
(26:10):
Take care. Bye bye
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