February 19, 2024 • 23 mins
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So many of you feel like you are being used as firemen right now, running from one fire to the next, trying to put out the biggest flames. This week, I share the four critical questions that I ask any teacher who flags me down for behavior assistance, why these four questions are so important, and how to facilitate these conversations without causing a rift in your professional relationships.
If you're overwhelmed with behavior response right now, this could be a game-changer for you.
Mentioned in this episode:
School for School Counselors Mastermind
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Our goal at School for School Counselors is to help school counselors stay on fire, make huge impacts for students, and catalyze change for our roles through grassroots advocacy and collaboration. Listen to get to know more about us and our mission, feel empowered and inspired, and set yourself up for success in the wonderful world of school counseling.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steph Johnson (00:00):
Hey there, school counselor, welcome back to the
School for School Counselorspodcast.
I'm Steph Johnson, a full-timeschool counselor, just like you,
and I am so excited that you'vechosen to join me for another
podcast episode where we'regoing to continue our discussion
from last week about behaviorintervention.
(00:20):
I know so many of you feel likeyou are being used as firemen
right now, just running from onefire to the next trying to put
things out.
And last week on the podcast wetalked about some of those tier
one fundamentals that could beput into place in a classroom
that could maybe help mitigatesome of those issues on your
(00:43):
campus where we could actuallyencourage teachers to take the
upper hand in their classroomsto really establish some good
routines and procedures, makingsure they're prepared, those
kinds of things.
And the conversation since thatpodcast episode came out has
been really, really interesting,not only in our School for
(01:07):
School Counselors Facebook group, but also in our Mastermind
group as well.
We've really been thinking thisthrough and talking about it
and we had a really interestingdevelopment in our Mastermind
conversation the followingTuesday.
So you've probably heard metalk about our Mastermind before
.
It's where we all get togetherand just kind of geek out on
(01:29):
School Counseling, the thingsthat are working on our campus,
the things we wish were workingbetter.
We put our heads together.
We come up with ideas andsolutions and approaches for
making things run at our schoolswith our students and our
parents and our staff.
And so, as we were talkingthrough these fundamentals for
(01:50):
behavior intervention, I wastalking about the four things
that I always ask my campusteachers to provide when I'm
called in to deal with behaviorintervention, and I didn't
mention it in the podcastepisode because I wasn't sure it
would be relevant to you, but,as many people have noted since
(02:10):
that conversation, maybe it is,maybe it's something that I need
to be putting out into theworld.
So I'm going to offer to youthis week the four things that I
ask for when I'm called toassist with behavior
intervention, and these may notbe right at the outset of the
situation, it might not be inthe moment, but towards the
(02:32):
beginning of this interventionor towards the beginning of this
relationship with the student,I'm going to be asking for these
four things.
So, first, when I'm called toaid in behavior intervention and
I'm not talking like a one offissue, I'm talking about
something that's starting tolook like it's going to be
(02:53):
pretty consistent.
The first question I'm going toask is what are the tier one
procedures in place in thatclassroom?
Does the teacher have aneffective system for getting
attention in the classroom,perhaps when students are able
to talk or visit or work ingroups?
How do we bring it all back in?
(03:14):
How do we get students'attention without endlessly
asking for it, without shoutingwith all of those things?
Do we have a good way to getattention and get things back on
track?
Does the teacher have good Tier1 procedures in place for
materials, for movement in theclassroom, for communicating
(03:37):
what conversation needs to lookand sound like?
Do they have good systems inplace for how students get help?
All of these things are Tier 1fundamentals of classroom
management, so we want to makesure those are in place for a
couple of reasons.
Number one misbehavior can comeup.
When students aren't sure ofthe expectation, when they feel
(04:01):
scattered, when things feel alittle frantic or frenzied, that
can definitely cause a level ofanxiety to rise.
Sometimes students just see anopportunity, right?
And so we want to really takeaway any of that.
We want to make sure that we'restreamlined, we are purposeful
(04:21):
in all the things happening inthat classroom and that every
single person knows what to do.
If you've worked with me ever inschool counseling, you know I'm
a huge fan of the CHAMPSframework.
If you haven't looked into that, you might Google it.
It's a brilliant solution forletting students know the
(04:41):
expectation in a classroom.
But it doesn't necessarily haveto be CHAMPS.
It just needs to be fundamentalroutines and procedures in
place so that all students knowwhat to do and how to do it.
So that's always the firstthing I'm looking at when I walk
into a classroom, particularlyif we have more than one student
(05:04):
who's showing somedysregulation.
Sometimes that's the culprit.
Teachers don't like to hearthat, but it can often be the
case or at least be acontributing factor to the
unrest.
So we want to just nip that inthe bud.
Second, which kind of falls inline with tier one procedures,
is does the teacher have aconsistent schedule or routines
(05:29):
in place?
In elementary school this oftenlooks like a visual schedule,
where we post the routine forthe day visually with some cues,
so students know they can matchthe pictures if they can't read
the words.
They know what's happening now,they know what's coming next.
They can anticipate what'sgoing to happen in their day.
(05:51):
That sort of structure can bereally reassuring and very
soothing to students,particularly if they're prone to
dysregulation, if they'recoming from chaotic home
environments, those kinds ofthings, or even if they're
coming from a chaotic time intheir day such as lunch or
recess.
(06:12):
That reassurance can reallymake a huge difference.
And please don't jump to theconclusion that visual schedules
are only for the itty-bittieson elementary campuses.
In secondary it might be aposted routine or procedure for
that classroom.
Could I walk in as an emergencysubstitute teacher?
(06:35):
We hope that doesn't happen toa school counselor, but could
anybody walk in as an emergencysubstitute in that classroom and
immediately be able to jumpinto the routines and procedures
of the class?
Is it posted, is it obvious, isit apparent?
Could they ask the students inthat classroom how's your class
(06:57):
structured?
What do you do first, what doyou do next?
And could the students tellthem?
It's super, super importantthat we have that kind of
structure and expectation inplace.
Let me tell you a story Back inthe days when I was teaching, a
hundred years ago.
It feels like I was oncescheduled to be observed and
(07:17):
evaluated by my campus principal.
And when the day of theevaluation came around, I had
laryngitis.
I completely lost my voice.
It was just this little croaky,whispery sort of voice.
There was no way I was going tobe able to be loud.
And I taught in the specialrotation.
So I had some larger classsizes than our academic teachers
(07:42):
and I remember the principallooking at me that morning and
saying hey, you know what?
It's no big deal.
Let me reschedule thisobservation.
I don't think today's the rightday for it.
And I managed to croak out tothem and say no, go ahead, come
on, in, come see what we've gotgoing on.
Of course they looked at melike I was crazy.
(08:02):
They came in to observe anyway,and we were able to run our
class without skipping a beatBecause we had the routines,
procedures and expectations inplace.
The students knew exactly whatwas going to happen, they knew
exactly what was expected ofthem and they knew how it was
all going to go down.
(08:22):
They could have run that classwithout me for the most part if
I needed them to.
So do your teachers have thosekinds of routines in place?
It may not be to that extent,but can you see evidence of it
when you walk into the classroom?
So, first, are Tier 1procedures?
Second, is that schedule orroutine?
(08:43):
Third, I always ask teacherswhat's your incentive structure
in your classroom?
How do students know they'redoing a great job?
How do they get rewarded forthat?
How do they get recognized fortheir hard work?
This is something so manyteachers overlook, right?
They feel like it's too muchwork, it takes too much time out
(09:04):
of their lesson, and I get itbecause I used to be in those
shoes.
I understand, but it's justlike a stitch in time saves nine
, right?
If we can't address thatbehavior early, if we can be
proactive about it, it's goingto save us a ton of headaches
later on in the class period.
What's the incentive structurein that classroom?
(09:26):
And further, what's theincentive structure for that
particular student?
Sometimes individual studentsrequire their own incentive
structures.
So what does that look like?
How is it implemented?
Is it implemented consistently?
These are all things to beasking as we look into this
(09:49):
dysregulation.
And fourth, and this is thekicker, this is the one I get
the stink eye about most often.
But where is your behaviordocumentation so far?
Man, if I had a dollar forevery time I've asked this
question and was met with thedeer in headlights, look, or the
(10:09):
blank stare y'all.
I would be a millionaire, Iwould not need to do this job
anymore.
But here's the thing.
I'm not asking this questionbecause it's a gotcha, right.
I'm not trying to catch anybodyin anything, but often we have
situations in classrooms whereteachers just get fed up with
(10:31):
kids or they just don't likesomething about them.
They don't know what it is,they can't put their finger on
it, but there's just somethingabout this student and this
teacher that is not meshing well.
We need the behaviordocumentation to be able to see
if we can establish a pattern,if we can tease out the
(10:53):
frequency of these situations,if we can tease out the duration
of how long they go.
This doesn't mean they need tobe keeping super detailed notes
on this, but we need something.
We need a little something togo off of so we can have a good
understanding of what we'rewalking into as we begin to
(11:16):
address this dysregulation.
It's hard being a classroomteacher and feeling like you
have to document all the thingsright your documenting behavior,
your documenting 504accommodations, your documenting
special education interventionsand accommodations and all the
things and you're turning inlesson plans and you're grading
(11:36):
and there's just all of thisrecord keeping that has to be
done and a lot of folks getreally overwhelmed.
This is a great time for us tobe able to come in and model
what that can look like, how tostreamline those efforts, how
data does not have to be superformal all the time.
We can take some data in someinformal ways, for sure, and
(11:59):
still make it work for us.
But bottom line is, we needsome data and documentation so
that we can have a direction.
We don't know where we're goingif we don't know where we
started.
So those are the four thingsthat I ask for when I'm dealing
with specific behavior concernswhat are the Tier 1 procedures?
(12:22):
Where is your visual scheduleor what are your routines,
what's your incentive structureand where is your behavior
documentation so far, that getsthe ball rolling.
That gives me enough, then, totry to develop an understanding
of the dynamics in thatclassroom and what might be
(12:42):
causing the level ofdysregulation that's requiring
the school counselor to come inand intervene.
We were talking about this inour mastermind group and one of
our members said you know,that's all great, but it would
be really hard to have thisconversation with some of my
teachers.
I really feel like they wouldpush back or they would feel
(13:05):
like I was accusing them ofthings, and I just don't know
that that would go well.
So how are you able to havethese candid conversations with
your staff in a way that doesn'tleave them feeling ticked off,
that doesn't leave them feelinglike you're trying to catch them
in something or like someone'sangry at them?
And I thought that was a greatquestion.
(13:28):
I will preface it by saying Ithink this is a skill that is
developed throughout your career.
I think it's something that wehave to be very intentional
about and very mindful in theway that we're approaching these
conversations.
And first, I think it all boilsdown with your relationship
with your staff.
What kinds of relationshipshave you built so far?
(13:50):
Do they understand you and howyou work?
My staff knows I'm a straightshooter, but they also know that
I understand their challengesand I understand the hurdles in
being in the classroom day inand day out.
That's because when I'm talkingwith them, I'm relaying my own
(14:11):
experiences, I'm addressingtheirs with empathy and I'm
trying to be real and verynon-judgmental, and I feel like
that shines through.
I feel like that's why so manyof the difficult conversations
that I have to have on my campusare successful.
But I think that's first.
I think relationship definitelyis first.
(14:34):
We kind of dance this linebetween wanting to be
constructive and collaborativeand coming across as you should
do this or why haven't you donethis.
It's a delicate dance to bepart of, and so we've got to be
really mindful how we'reapproaching these conversations.
First, I think, starting withsome sentence stems such as I've
(14:57):
noticed, or I've been wondering, and opening the conversation
in a very non-judgmental way,I've noticed there are lots of
behavior calls to this hallwayafter lunch.
Why do you think that is?
I'm wondering why Bobby alwaysseems to have difficulty right
(15:18):
after they come back from recess.
I'm wondering why the behaviorseemed to go away and then came
back.
Those kinds of questions whereyou can give them the authority
to speak as the authority ontheir classroom.
Sometimes they will think ofthings or tell you things that
(15:39):
you never even imagined.
They'll kind of blow your mindin that way, and that's the best
thing, because you want all ofthe information straight from
the horse's mouth right,straight from the expert on that
classroom, which is thatteacher.
So starting those conversationsin a non-judgmental way is
going to be the first step.
(16:01):
Second, I think if we have someideas to offer or some
approaches to suggest, I thinksometimes framing them as have
you tried this?
Have you thought about that?
Those kinds of things whereit's not well, you should do
this or you should do that, orresearch tells us that the best
(16:21):
way to do this is XYZ.
Those are going to feel veryconfrontational, they're going
to feel very judgmental and thehuman brain does not like to
admit that it is wrong.
So those folks are going totune you out as soon as you get
started.
Better to approach thesituation with a question have
(16:42):
you thought about this?
Have you considered trying that?
And keep the door open for themto listen and to have a
conversation with you about it.
Third, I think approaching it ina very solution focused manner
might be extremely helpful.
I love to ask what's worked sofar?
(17:05):
What have you tried that'sworked for this student so far?
What do they really seem torespond to?
Can you think about one of thebest days you've had with this
student?
What was different?
Those kinds of questions,solution-focused questioning
(17:26):
gets them out of the blame gamemindset, out of their
frustration, out of theirannoyance with this student, and
really calls them to considerthe solution-focused aspects of
the situation, how they've beenable to intervene so far, what's
worked they might want to trymore of in the future.
(17:46):
But maybe they just forgotabout it or didn't realize that
that was related to the behavior.
It's super important.
So having those conversationsin a constructive way I've
noticed I'm wondering have youtried what's worked so far?
Those kinds of questions is thefirst step in having these
(18:07):
productive and non-judgmentalconversations.
Second, I think building yourfluency is going to help a ton,
because you're going to be ableto speak to these situations
with more authority.
You're not going to feelflustered and panicked yourself,
right?
Some of us avoid theconversations completely because
(18:28):
we're like what?
I don't know what to say.
What if they say something andI'm just staring at them?
I don't know what to say?
They ask me for a suggestionand I don't know what to offer.
That's terrifying.
I remember being there.
I get it.
We've got to build our fluencyso that we know what our next
steps might be, so that we canoffer some suggestions.
(18:49):
Have you thought about this andsee where the conversation goes
?
If it goes in a differentdirection, we'll have the
dexterity where we can pivot andfollow that conversation
wherever it leads and not haveto feel nervous about it.
When we feel nervous, we oftencome across differently and
sometimes that's read as beingconfrontational.
(19:11):
We don't want to go thatdirection.
We want to be very, very openand very genuine and curious
with our teachers.
As we build that fluency to, wedevelop confidence, we develop
the ability to walk into thoseconversations and not give off
those signals of I'm unsure, I'mnot quite there yet, I don't
(19:35):
really know because, intentionalor not, we can give those
nonverbal signals right.
Sometimes we even give verbalsignals about I'm not well
versed in this, I don't feelconfident in this, I'm not sure
I'm asking you the rightquestions.
So I'll give you a spoiler,which is I don't think we ever
(19:57):
100% feel confident in theseconversations.
If we did, that's just a cue tous that we need to learn and
grow and experience more,because we should never feel
like we have all the answersRight.
There's a certain amount ofhumility that's called for,
especially in these situations,and we want to be mindful of
(20:18):
that.
But at the same time we do wanta fair amount of confidence in
what we're talking about, sothat if a staff member or a
teacher is open to oursuggestions, we have some to
provide.
So those are my suggestions forhaving productive conversations
, starting with openness.
(20:38):
I've noticed, I'm wondering haveyou tried building fluency so
that we're able to speak to thesituation at hand and, through
that fluency, building ourconfidence so that we can stand
confidently in the conversation?
We're not undermining ourselveswith our own nonverbal cues
about I'm not sure about this,I'm not sure this is the right
(21:00):
thing, and then we undermine ourown authority in the situation.
So anyway, that's just kind ofa little brain dump of the
things we've been talking aboutin our mastermind this past week
and also a little bit in ourSchool for School Counselors
Facebook group.
If you're not a member of bothof those, you need to jump in
them now because I'm telling youthere are amazing things
(21:22):
happening in both places, in ourmastermind in particular.
That's where we're having thesein-depth conversations.
We're tossing the ball back andforth, thinking about different
ways things can go, how we canhandle them in our own unique
situations on our campuses andhow we can really ask these
targeted and intentionalquestions to become better
(21:45):
practitioners of our craft.
If you're interested in havingan experience like that, please
join us in our mastermind,schoolforschoolcounselorscom.
Slash mastermind will give youall the details, and we would
love nothing more than towelcome you into the fold of
others who love to geek outabout this stuff every Tuesday
evening at 8 Eastern.
(22:08):
All right, thanks for bearingwith me.
I've got a little bit of astuffy nose this week.
I hope that didn't come acrosstoo badly as I recorded this
episode for you, but I reallyfelt that this was an important
conversation to have, the fourthings that I ask classroom
teachers for when I'm called forbehavior, intervention and how
to have these constructive,productive and non-judgmental
(22:31):
conversations about what's goingon in the classroom.
If you have any thoughts orinsights for me, I would love to
hear them.
Feel free to email me hello atschoolforschoolcounselorscom or,
better yet, leave us a reviewon Apple podcasts.
If you've been enjoying thispodcast, we would love to hear
your thoughts and feedback.
(22:52):
Y'all, that's the currency thatkeeps the algorithm running.
That's how Apple knows thatyou're enjoying the podcast and
that they should probably startshowing it to other school
counselors.
So if you have a moment, leaveus a quick review.
It would mean so much to us.
Give us those stars and thentype out your thoughts just
really quickly.
It doesn't have to be a lot,but it will mean the world to us
(23:14):
and to whoever else it helps todiscover the School for School
Counselors podcast.
I'll be back soon with anotherepisode.
In the meantime, I hope youhave the best, most constructive
week ever.
Take care.
Hey there, school counselor, welcome back to the
School for School Counselorspodcast.
I'm Steph Johnson, a full-timeschool counselor, just like you,
and I am so excited that you'vechosen to join me for another
podcast episode where we'regoing to continue our discussion
from last week about behaviorintervention.
(00:20):
I know so many of you feel likeyou are being used as firemen
right now, just running from onefire to the next trying to put
things out.
And last week on the podcast wetalked about some of those tier
one fundamentals that could beput into place in a classroom
that could maybe help mitigatesome of those issues on your
(00:43):
campus where we could actuallyencourage teachers to take the
upper hand in their classroomsto really establish some good
routines and procedures, makingsure they're prepared, those
kinds of things.
And the conversation since thatpodcast episode came out has
been really, really interesting,not only in our School for
(01:07):
School Counselors Facebook group, but also in our Mastermind
group as well.
We've really been thinking thisthrough and talking about it
and we had a really interestingdevelopment in our Mastermind
conversation the followingTuesday.
So you've probably heard metalk about our Mastermind before
.
It's where we all get togetherand just kind of geek out on
(01:29):
School Counseling, the thingsthat are working on our campus,
the things we wish were workingbetter.
We put our heads together.
We come up with ideas andsolutions and approaches for
making things run at our schoolswith our students and our
parents and our staff.
And so, as we were talkingthrough these fundamentals for
(01:50):
behavior intervention, I wastalking about the four things
that I always ask my campusteachers to provide when I'm
called in to deal with behaviorintervention, and I didn't
mention it in the podcastepisode because I wasn't sure it
would be relevant to you, but,as many people have noted since
(02:10):
that conversation, maybe it is,maybe it's something that I need
to be putting out into theworld.
So I'm going to offer to youthis week the four things that I
ask for when I'm called toassist with behavior
intervention, and these may notbe right at the outset of the
situation, it might not be inthe moment, but towards the
(02:32):
beginning of this interventionor towards the beginning of this
relationship with the student,I'm going to be asking for these
four things.
So, first, when I'm called toaid in behavior intervention and
I'm not talking like a one offissue, I'm talking about
something that's starting tolook like it's going to be
(02:53):
pretty consistent.
The first question I'm going toask is what are the tier one
procedures in place in thatclassroom?
Does the teacher have aneffective system for getting
attention in the classroom,perhaps when students are able
to talk or visit or work ingroups?
How do we bring it all back in?
(03:14):
How do we get students'attention without endlessly
asking for it, without shoutingwith all of those things?
Do we have a good way to getattention and get things back on
track?
Does the teacher have good Tier1 procedures in place for
materials, for movement in theclassroom, for communicating
(03:37):
what conversation needs to lookand sound like?
Do they have good systems inplace for how students get help?
All of these things are Tier 1fundamentals of classroom
management, so we want to makesure those are in place for a
couple of reasons.
Number one misbehavior can comeup.
When students aren't sure ofthe expectation, when they feel
(04:01):
scattered, when things feel alittle frantic or frenzied, that
can definitely cause a level ofanxiety to rise.
Sometimes students just see anopportunity, right?
And so we want to really takeaway any of that.
We want to make sure that we'restreamlined, we are purposeful
(04:21):
in all the things happening inthat classroom and that every
single person knows what to do.
If you've worked with me ever inschool counseling, you know I'm
a huge fan of the CHAMPSframework.
If you haven't looked into that, you might Google it.
It's a brilliant solution forletting students know the
(04:41):
expectation in a classroom.
But it doesn't necessarily haveto be CHAMPS.
It just needs to be fundamentalroutines and procedures in
place so that all students knowwhat to do and how to do it.
So that's always the firstthing I'm looking at when I walk
into a classroom, particularlyif we have more than one student
(05:04):
who's showing somedysregulation.
Sometimes that's the culprit.
Teachers don't like to hearthat, but it can often be the
case or at least be acontributing factor to the
unrest.
So we want to just nip that inthe bud.
Second, which kind of falls inline with tier one procedures,
is does the teacher have aconsistent schedule or routines
(05:29):
in place?
In elementary school this oftenlooks like a visual schedule,
where we post the routine forthe day visually with some cues,
so students know they can matchthe pictures if they can't read
the words.
They know what's happening now,they know what's coming next.
They can anticipate what'sgoing to happen in their day.
(05:51):
That sort of structure can bereally reassuring and very
soothing to students,particularly if they're prone to
dysregulation, if they'recoming from chaotic home
environments, those kinds ofthings, or even if they're
coming from a chaotic time intheir day such as lunch or
recess.
(06:12):
That reassurance can reallymake a huge difference.
And please don't jump to theconclusion that visual schedules
are only for the itty-bittieson elementary campuses.
In secondary it might be aposted routine or procedure for
that classroom.
Could I walk in as an emergencysubstitute teacher?
(06:35):
We hope that doesn't happen toa school counselor, but could
anybody walk in as an emergencysubstitute in that classroom and
immediately be able to jumpinto the routines and procedures
of the class?
Is it posted, is it obvious, isit apparent?
Could they ask the students inthat classroom how's your class
(06:57):
structured?
What do you do first, what doyou do next?
And could the students tellthem?
It's super, super importantthat we have that kind of
structure and expectation inplace.
Let me tell you a story Back inthe days when I was teaching, a
hundred years ago.
It feels like I was oncescheduled to be observed and
(07:17):
evaluated by my campus principal.
And when the day of theevaluation came around, I had
laryngitis.
I completely lost my voice.
It was just this little croaky,whispery sort of voice.
There was no way I was going tobe able to be loud.
And I taught in the specialrotation.
So I had some larger classsizes than our academic teachers
(07:42):
and I remember the principallooking at me that morning and
saying hey, you know what?
It's no big deal.
Let me reschedule thisobservation.
I don't think today's the rightday for it.
And I managed to croak out tothem and say no, go ahead, come
on, in, come see what we've gotgoing on.
Of course they looked at melike I was crazy.
(08:02):
They came in to observe anyway,and we were able to run our
class without skipping a beatBecause we had the routines,
procedures and expectations inplace.
The students knew exactly whatwas going to happen, they knew
exactly what was expected ofthem and they knew how it was
all going to go down.
(08:22):
They could have run that classwithout me for the most part if
I needed them to.
So do your teachers have thosekinds of routines in place?
It may not be to that extent,but can you see evidence of it
when you walk into the classroom?
So, first, are Tier 1procedures?
Second, is that schedule orroutine?
(08:43):
Third, I always ask teacherswhat's your incentive structure
in your classroom?
How do students know they'redoing a great job?
How do they get rewarded forthat?
How do they get recognized fortheir hard work?
This is something so manyteachers overlook, right?
They feel like it's too muchwork, it takes too much time out
(09:04):
of their lesson, and I get itbecause I used to be in those
shoes.
I understand, but it's justlike a stitch in time saves nine
, right?
If we can't address thatbehavior early, if we can be
proactive about it, it's goingto save us a ton of headaches
later on in the class period.
What's the incentive structurein that classroom?
(09:26):
And further, what's theincentive structure for that
particular student?
Sometimes individual studentsrequire their own incentive
structures.
So what does that look like?
How is it implemented?
Is it implemented consistently?
These are all things to beasking as we look into this
(09:49):
dysregulation.
And fourth, and this is thekicker, this is the one I get
the stink eye about most often.
But where is your behaviordocumentation so far?
Man, if I had a dollar forevery time I've asked this
question and was met with thedeer in headlights, look, or the
(10:09):
blank stare y'all.
I would be a millionaire, Iwould not need to do this job
anymore.
But here's the thing.
I'm not asking this questionbecause it's a gotcha, right.
I'm not trying to catch anybodyin anything, but often we have
situations in classrooms whereteachers just get fed up with
(10:31):
kids or they just don't likesomething about them.
They don't know what it is,they can't put their finger on
it, but there's just somethingabout this student and this
teacher that is not meshing well.
We need the behaviordocumentation to be able to see
if we can establish a pattern,if we can tease out the
(10:53):
frequency of these situations,if we can tease out the duration
of how long they go.
This doesn't mean they need tobe keeping super detailed notes
on this, but we need something.
We need a little something togo off of so we can have a good
understanding of what we'rewalking into as we begin to
(11:16):
address this dysregulation.
It's hard being a classroomteacher and feeling like you
have to document all the thingsright your documenting behavior,
your documenting 504accommodations, your documenting
special education interventionsand accommodations and all the
things and you're turning inlesson plans and you're grading
(11:36):
and there's just all of thisrecord keeping that has to be
done and a lot of folks getreally overwhelmed.
This is a great time for us tobe able to come in and model
what that can look like, how tostreamline those efforts, how
data does not have to be superformal all the time.
We can take some data in someinformal ways, for sure, and
(11:59):
still make it work for us.
But bottom line is, we needsome data and documentation so
that we can have a direction.
We don't know where we're goingif we don't know where we
started.
So those are the four thingsthat I ask for when I'm dealing
with specific behavior concernswhat are the Tier 1 procedures?
(12:22):
Where is your visual scheduleor what are your routines,
what's your incentive structureand where is your behavior
documentation so far, that getsthe ball rolling.
That gives me enough, then, totry to develop an understanding
of the dynamics in thatclassroom and what might be
(12:42):
causing the level ofdysregulation that's requiring
the school counselor to come inand intervene.
We were talking about this inour mastermind group and one of
our members said you know,that's all great, but it would
be really hard to have thisconversation with some of my
teachers.
I really feel like they wouldpush back or they would feel
(13:05):
like I was accusing them ofthings, and I just don't know
that that would go well.
So how are you able to havethese candid conversations with
your staff in a way that doesn'tleave them feeling ticked off,
that doesn't leave them feelinglike you're trying to catch them
in something or like someone'sangry at them?
And I thought that was a greatquestion.
(13:28):
I will preface it by saying Ithink this is a skill that is
developed throughout your career.
I think it's something that wehave to be very intentional
about and very mindful in theway that we're approaching these
conversations.
And first, I think it all boilsdown with your relationship
with your staff.
What kinds of relationshipshave you built so far?
(13:50):
Do they understand you and howyou work?
My staff knows I'm a straightshooter, but they also know that
I understand their challengesand I understand the hurdles in
being in the classroom day inand day out.
That's because when I'm talkingwith them, I'm relaying my own
(14:11):
experiences, I'm addressingtheirs with empathy and I'm
trying to be real and verynon-judgmental, and I feel like
that shines through.
I feel like that's why so manyof the difficult conversations
that I have to have on my campusare successful.
But I think that's first.
I think relationship definitelyis first.
(14:34):
We kind of dance this linebetween wanting to be
constructive and collaborativeand coming across as you should
do this or why haven't you donethis.
It's a delicate dance to bepart of, and so we've got to be
really mindful how we'reapproaching these conversations.
First, I think, starting withsome sentence stems such as I've
(14:57):
noticed, or I've been wondering, and opening the conversation
in a very non-judgmental way,I've noticed there are lots of
behavior calls to this hallwayafter lunch.
Why do you think that is?
I'm wondering why Bobby alwaysseems to have difficulty right
(15:18):
after they come back from recess.
I'm wondering why the behaviorseemed to go away and then came
back.
Those kinds of questions whereyou can give them the authority
to speak as the authority ontheir classroom.
Sometimes they will think ofthings or tell you things that
(15:39):
you never even imagined.
They'll kind of blow your mindin that way, and that's the best
thing, because you want all ofthe information straight from
the horse's mouth right,straight from the expert on that
classroom, which is thatteacher.
So starting those conversationsin a non-judgmental way is
going to be the first step.
(16:01):
Second, I think if we have someideas to offer or some
approaches to suggest, I thinksometimes framing them as have
you tried this?
Have you thought about that?
Those kinds of things whereit's not well, you should do
this or you should do that, orresearch tells us that the best
(16:21):
way to do this is XYZ.
Those are going to feel veryconfrontational, they're going
to feel very judgmental and thehuman brain does not like to
admit that it is wrong.
So those folks are going totune you out as soon as you get
started.
Better to approach thesituation with a question have
(16:42):
you thought about this?
Have you considered trying that?
And keep the door open for themto listen and to have a
conversation with you about it.
Third, I think approaching it ina very solution focused manner
might be extremely helpful.
I love to ask what's worked sofar?
(17:05):
What have you tried that'sworked for this student so far?
What do they really seem torespond to?
Can you think about one of thebest days you've had with this
student?
What was different?
Those kinds of questions,solution-focused questioning
(17:26):
gets them out of the blame gamemindset, out of their
frustration, out of theirannoyance with this student, and
really calls them to considerthe solution-focused aspects of
the situation, how they've beenable to intervene so far, what's
worked they might want to trymore of in the future.
(17:46):
But maybe they just forgotabout it or didn't realize that
that was related to the behavior.
It's super important.
So having those conversationsin a constructive way I've
noticed I'm wondering have youtried what's worked so far?
Those kinds of questions is thefirst step in having these
(18:07):
productive and non-judgmentalconversations.
Second, I think building yourfluency is going to help a ton,
because you're going to be ableto speak to these situations
with more authority.
You're not going to feelflustered and panicked yourself,
right?
Some of us avoid theconversations completely because
(18:28):
we're like what?
I don't know what to say.
What if they say something andI'm just staring at them?
I don't know what to say?
They ask me for a suggestionand I don't know what to offer.
That's terrifying.
I remember being there.
I get it.
We've got to build our fluencyso that we know what our next
steps might be, so that we canoffer some suggestions.
(18:49):
Have you thought about this andsee where the conversation goes
?
If it goes in a differentdirection, we'll have the
dexterity where we can pivot andfollow that conversation
wherever it leads and not haveto feel nervous about it.
When we feel nervous, we oftencome across differently and
sometimes that's read as beingconfrontational.
(19:11):
We don't want to go thatdirection.
We want to be very, very openand very genuine and curious
with our teachers.
As we build that fluency to, wedevelop confidence, we develop
the ability to walk into thoseconversations and not give off
those signals of I'm unsure, I'mnot quite there yet, I don't
(19:35):
really know because, intentionalor not, we can give those
nonverbal signals right.
Sometimes we even give verbalsignals about I'm not well
versed in this, I don't feelconfident in this, I'm not sure
I'm asking you the rightquestions.
So I'll give you a spoiler,which is I don't think we ever
(19:57):
100% feel confident in theseconversations.
If we did, that's just a cue tous that we need to learn and
grow and experience more,because we should never feel
like we have all the answersRight.
There's a certain amount ofhumility that's called for,
especially in these situations,and we want to be mindful of
(20:18):
that.
But at the same time we do wanta fair amount of confidence in
what we're talking about, sothat if a staff member or a
teacher is open to oursuggestions, we have some to
provide.
So those are my suggestions forhaving productive conversations
, starting with openness.
(20:38):
I've noticed, I'm wondering haveyou tried building fluency so
that we're able to speak to thesituation at hand and, through
that fluency, building ourconfidence so that we can stand
confidently in the conversation?
We're not undermining ourselveswith our own nonverbal cues
about I'm not sure about this,I'm not sure this is the right
(21:00):
thing, and then we undermine ourown authority in the situation.
So anyway, that's just kind ofa little brain dump of the
things we've been talking aboutin our mastermind this past week
and also a little bit in ourSchool for School Counselors
Facebook group.
If you're not a member of bothof those, you need to jump in
them now because I'm telling youthere are amazing things
(21:22):
happening in both places, in ourmastermind in particular.
That's where we're having thesein-depth conversations.
We're tossing the ball back andforth, thinking about different
ways things can go, how we canhandle them in our own unique
situations on our campuses andhow we can really ask these
targeted and intentionalquestions to become better
(21:45):
practitioners of our craft.
If you're interested in havingan experience like that, please
join us in our mastermind,schoolforschoolcounselorscom.
Slash mastermind will give youall the details, and we would
love nothing more than towelcome you into the fold of
others who love to geek outabout this stuff every Tuesday
evening at 8 Eastern.
(22:08):
All right, thanks for bearingwith me.
I've got a little bit of astuffy nose this week.
I hope that didn't come acrosstoo badly as I recorded this
episode for you, but I reallyfelt that this was an important
conversation to have, the fourthings that I ask classroom
teachers for when I'm called forbehavior, intervention and how
to have these constructive,productive and non-judgmental
(22:31):
conversations about what's goingon in the classroom.
If you have any thoughts orinsights for me, I would love to
hear them.
Feel free to email me hello atschoolforschoolcounselorscom or,
better yet, leave us a reviewon Apple podcasts.
If you've been enjoying thispodcast, we would love to hear
your thoughts and feedback.
(22:52):
Y'all, that's the currency thatkeeps the algorithm running.
That's how Apple knows thatyou're enjoying the podcast and
that they should probably startshowing it to other school
counselors.
So if you have a moment, leaveus a quick review.
It would mean so much to us.
Give us those stars and thentype out your thoughts just
really quickly.
It doesn't have to be a lot,but it will mean the world to us
(23:14):
and to whoever else it helps todiscover the School for School
Counselors podcast.
I'll be back soon with anotherepisode.
In the meantime, I hope youhave the best, most constructive
week ever.
Take care.
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