Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, hey there,
school counselor, Welcome back
to the School for SchoolCounselors podcast.
I'm Steph Johnson, so glad thatyou've joined me for another
episode of the podcast.
Hey, so as I'm preparing thispodcast episode, I'm just going
to be real with you for a minute.
I'm going to tell you that itis December.
(00:20):
I'm recording the Sunday beforethe last week of school before
Christmas break, and so ifyou're listening to this episode
around that time, you know whatI'm talking about.
Things are crazy town right now,aren't they?
Speaking for myself?
Things are so busy on campusright now.
(00:42):
Not only do I have my regularresponsibilities going on, but
I'm also doing holiday outreachprojects.
I'm organizing hundreds ofChristmas gifts to be sent out
into the community.
I'm coordinating deliveries forthose, I am coordinating pickup
times, I'm coordinating holidaymeals, I'm trying to get
(01:03):
students' end-of-semester gradesall finalized and lined out,
and y'all.
There's just so much going onon top of all of the normal
stuff that goes on this time ofyear, with family celebrations,
kids' concerts and events.
It is just a busy, busy timeand I love it all.
(01:24):
It is just a busy, busy timeand I love it all.
I wouldn't trade it foranything, but you and I both
know there are only so manyminutes in the day, right?
So as I was thinking about thispodcast episode this week, I
decided to pull an episode fromthe archives.
But I have a really good reasonfor this, and it's not just
(01:44):
because I'm tired and I'moverwhelmed and I have a lot
going on this time of year.
It's also because it correlatesbeautifully with a new resource
we just released into ourMastermind community today.
Now in our Mastermind, we seekto avoid all of the print and
pray resources that you see allover the internet for school
(02:08):
counselors.
We believe that true counselingcomes from knowing your skills
very, very well and throughprofessional fluency.
And if you possess thatknowledge and expertise, then
that extra baloney isunnecessary because you already
have everything you need.
We love to release our schoolcounseling playbooks that give
(02:33):
you a roadmap for common schoolcounseling concerns without
having to print a bunch of extrastuff.
They walk you step by stepthrough the concerns for both
younger students and ouradolescents and young adults.
So far in our playbook serieswe have the School Refusal
(02:55):
Playbook, parent and CommunityEngagement, grief, collaborative
Problem Solving, which, as aside note, is just about the
best approach I think you canlearn in school counseling the
behavior intervention playbookand anxiety playbook, and today
we just released theoppositional behavior playbook,
(03:17):
and so, as I'm celebrating therelease of this new playbook
with my mastermind members, Ithought you know what let's pull
in the episode that I did backin April of 2023 about
oppositional defiant disorderand what we should really be
talking about in schools.
(03:37):
I hope you love this.
Let's take a listen.
Take a listen, hello schoolcounselor.
Welcome back to the School forSchool Counselors podcast.
I'm Steph Johnson, here withyou again for another week of
(03:59):
insight, hopefully someinspiration and some things to
really help you get better atyour craft, because that's what
we're here for right In thispodcast is to make sure.
What we're here for right inthis podcast is to make sure
that you're consistently growing, you're consistently learning
and becoming the absolute bestschool counselor that you can
possibly be.
In this episode, I want to talkabout oppositional defiant
(04:20):
disorder, and the reason that itcomes to mind especially this
time of year is because it seemsto me that the longer I'm in
school counseling, the moreoften I hear this term just
tossed around when students aredifficult, when folks aren't
able to understand students ortheir motivations or why they're
(04:44):
getting involved in certainbehaviors.
You know, you often just hearpeople say well, you know,
they're just so ODD, and this istroubling to me for several
reasons.
So I'm going to walk throughwith you today what true
oppositional defiant disorderlooks like, why we need to be
(05:04):
really careful assigning thatterm to students, and what we
can do if we have a difficultstudent in our midst, or maybe
more than one, right, what canwe do to really support those
students and help them to betheir best selves at school?
But before we jump into that,as always, I'm going to read a
(05:27):
very sweet review from a kindSchool for School Counselors
podcast listener, and I want tourge you now, if you haven't
stopped, to give us a review.
Y'all, this is the currencythat podcasts run on.
This is how folks find outabout us.
This is how people find out ifyou think we're any good or not.
You got to let the world know.
(05:47):
So if you haven't yet andyou're an Apple podcast
subscriber, hop on over andleave a review in Apple Podcasts
.
For us it's worth more than amillion bucks.
And if you're on a differentpodcast platform, hop on over
and give us a rating.
We certainly would appreciatethat too.
It just kind of keeps thewheels turning around here.
This week, our review comesfrom somebody with the coolest
(06:10):
screen name that I've seen in awhile.
This comes from HeyBabe11, andtheir review is titled One of my
New Favorite Things to Do.
The review goes on to say thisfavorite things to do.
The review goes on to say thisI'm a first-year school
counselor.
(06:30):
I have told multiple peopleclose to me that I never knew
what I signed up for in thisposition until I started it.
Being a school counselor.
You are so important to thesestudents and staff members, and
that comes with a lot ofpressure.
I love this field of work forso many reasons and love all the
connections I've made in thisfirst year, but I am completely
(06:54):
mentally and emotionally drainedevery day when I go home.
Listening to your podcast forthe first time a couple weeks
ago gave me a sense ofvalidation that I've been
missing in my life since beforeI began in the school months ago
.
I'm a counselor of 380 studentsand I find myself helping as
(07:15):
much and fast as I can, tryingto do more and more, but never
feeling caught up or like I canbreathe.
Hearing that others feel thesame has helped me so much
because I thought I was alone inthis.
I've taken pointers from yourself-compassion podcast and have
tried implementing thosestrategies as well as finding
(07:36):
more time for what I need.
I contacted a colleague and nowhave a weekly scheduled time to
discuss whatever we wish in asafe space together regarding
our jobs.
Thanks so much.
I plan to continue to listen toyour podcast during my lunch
breaks and during my car ridesto decompress.
(08:00):
What a lovely and thoughtfulreview, hey baby 11.
I'm telling you what man youknow how to throw some words
down there.
I am so grateful for yourthoughts, for your compliments,
but most of all, I'm gratefulfor the opportunity to serve you
and so many of our colleaguesin knowing that you aren't alone
(08:21):
, that this isn't an unusualexperience that you're having,
and that we can band togethernot only to support and empower
each other, but also to catalyzesome change in our field, and
we're working really, reallyhard toward that end.
I'm glad you're here with usalong for the ride.
All right, guys, again I'mgoing to ask you if you haven't
(08:43):
left a review.
Join in the cool kids club,like HeyBabe11, and leave us a
quick review for the podcast.
We could not thank you enoughfor that.
All right, so let's hop into theidea of oppositional defiant
disorder, a term that we hearpeople toss around all the time,
(09:04):
and quite frankly, I don't lovethat, but it is what it is.
It just sort of seems to be theworld we're living in right now
.
If you don't know what to dowith the kid, if they get
persnickety, if they'reargumentative, if they don't
cooperate, all of a sudden we'recalling them ODD.
Perhaps you have some studentson your campus that behave this
(09:26):
way.
They're argumentative, theyrefuse to complete work, they
may shout, they may accuseothers, they may curse, they may
threaten, they may have thesesevere emotional outbursts.
Sometimes those get physical.
Do you have any of those?
And maybe you've triedincentivizing good behavior
(09:47):
right?
You've tried the behaviorcharts, you've tried rewards,
you've tried positive incentives.
Perhaps you've tried buildingrapport right for hours upon
hours.
You've tried gaining parentcooperation.
You're trying to get teacherbuy-in everything you can think
of but nothing seems to begetting better.
(10:09):
Sometimes I think teachers liketo slap this label on kids
during conversations because itgives them a feeling of control
in a very out-of-controlsituation.
But here's the thing we're notdoing students any favors when
we start thinking about them asODD, right, there are a couple
(10:31):
of reasons for that.
First, it just kind of cementsan identity for students, right,
oh, they're just ODD, likenothing can be done about it.
Or man, you know, it's out ofmy hands, they're ODD, what do
you want me to do about it?
Very, very pathologizingnomenclature really boxes
students in.
(10:52):
I think it really discountstheir potential and it kind of
gives everybody a pass to stopencouraging growth, right, as if
this student is just doomed toa life of the same behaviors,
right?
Well, you know, I washed myhands of them.
They're ODD, what do you wantme to do?
Very, very dangerous line ofthought, especially in education
(11:16):
.
So that's the first problemthat I have with this label
being thrown around.
Second of all and you and I bothknow this it is not a
trauma-informed perspective.
Know this, it is not atrauma-informed perspective.
There's a lot of crossoverbetween oppositional behaviors,
defiant behaviors and traumaticexposure.
(11:37):
We have to keep that at theforefront of our awareness as we
come across situations likethis.
We really need to examine thetrauma angle.
We need to make sure that wehaven't just written this off.
You know that.
We haven't just said oh, youknow, they're just, they're kind
of a bad kid.
They don't listen, they like toargue.
(11:57):
I don't know how to get them tobuy in with me.
Must be ODD?
No, no, it does not have to beODD, and it's really important
to keep it in perspective.
Have to be ODD, and it's reallyimportant to keep it in
perspective.
Third, and I've hinted at thisearlier, but I think a label
like oppositional defiantdisorder number one, just
(12:24):
labeling a kid with any disorderin general, is really limiting
for their own self-actualizationand for the growth of the
people around them.
To not only encourage them tostep into their best selves but
to grow as encouragers, ascoaches, as teachers and as
educators.
We have to keep these doors ofpotential open and when we start
arbitrarily assigning thesedisorder label to kids, we stunt
(12:47):
those opportunities.
Because as we label studentsand maybe get a little dramatic
in our assessment, right throughour frustration, through our
anger, perhaps through ourresentment, we can sometimes
encourage students to live up tothe negative potential that
(13:08):
we've assigned to them insteadof what they can truly be.
So we've got to be super, supercareful with these terms
getting thrown around.
I often tell school staff orother counselors that I work
with.
When I hear the oppositionaldefiant label placed on the
table, I'm usually the first oneto say hey, hang on.
(13:29):
A second, let's pause.
I don't like that phrase.
Can we think of another way todescribe this student that feels
a little bit more accurate?
Now, to be fair, you may havestudents on your campus that do
meet the criteria ofoppositional defiant disorder.
But number one I think there'sa lot of flux in this definition
(13:53):
.
And number two as schoolcounselors, we're not tasked to
diagnose anybody anyway.
So what good is it going to dous to determine a label for a
student?
It's not going to change theway we interact with them.
It's not going to change theway that we try to intervene,
and you'll see what I mean in aminute.
First, let's look at the DSM-5diagnostic criteria.
(14:16):
Not because we want to diagnosestudents, but we do want to be
aware of the criteria being usedby other practitioners.
So you've got to have a patternof an angry or irritable mood,
argumentative or defiantbehavior or vindictiveness that
lasts at least six months, andit has to have a cluster of
(14:38):
symptoms from differentcategories.
There's a certain number thatyou have to achieve and they
fall under the headings of angryand irritable mood or
argumentative or defiantbehavior or vindictiveness, all
right, and it's really important.
As we talk about these kinds ofthings like losing temper, like
being touchy, easily annoyed,resentful, arguing with
(15:03):
authority, figures, rightDefiance or refusing to comply,
deliberately annoying otherpeople, blaming other people for
their mistakes or theirmisbehavior, all of these
different kinds of things, wehave to remember that some of
this may be developmentallyappropriate.
Right, to an extent it may beappropriate.
(15:26):
So there are differentcriterions depending on the age
of the student, depending on thefrequency, the intensity of the
behaviors, those kinds ofthings.
And then we've also got toconsider gender, we've got to
consider culture.
So there's a lot of pieces thatgo into this.
It's more complicated than youthink and that's another reason
(15:48):
I really don't like peoplethrowing this term around.
These disturbances also have tobe associated with distress in
the student or others in theirsocial context, and it has to
have a negative impact on someof their major areas of
functioning, like their socialrelationships, their educational
(16:09):
attainment, their ability tohold a job, those kinds of
things.
And then they have to beindependent of some other sort
of complicating factors, otherdisorders and things like that.
So, given the criteria for thisdisorder, I think it is really
dangerous and probably prettyunethical for us to be throwing
(16:33):
this term around without adefinitive diagnosis.
But also, you'll hear, you knowthere's a lot of play in these
definitions.
There's a lot of things thathave to be determined and teased
out.
It's not so simple as fillingout a screen or handing it in
and going oh yeah, they've gotoppositional defiant disorder.
It doesn't work that way.
One key characteristic ofoppositional defiant disorder
(16:58):
would be that the student can'tunderstand why or how reward or
punishment should impact theirbehavior.
It's not that they're choosingto behave in these ways.
They honestly don't understandwhat the different alternatives
should be.
If you offer them incentivizedchoices for behavior, they're
(17:18):
not even going to understand whyyou would do that.
And similarly, if they getpunished for something they do,
they genuinely cannot understandwhy they would be punished for
doing what they think everybodywould do.
So it gets pretty complicatedonce you dig down deep in this.
And what's even more interestingis Bessel van der Kolk, who
(17:39):
many of you know from the bookthe Body Keeps the Score, has
actually proposed a wholedifferent label for some of the
kids that are falling under theODD nomenclature, and he
proposes a label ofdevelopmental trauma disorder.
Kids with a trauma history dotend to show more oppositional,
(18:00):
defiant behavior, and so he'skind of leading a charge
currently to tease out thedifferences between these two.
But all that aside, knowingkind of what oppositional
defiant disorder looks like,what students who have been
exposed to trauma looks like, weneed to take a trauma-informed
(18:22):
lens anytime we're confrontedwith a student who appears to be
oppositional and or defiant.
So what can we do to supportthese students at school?
Number one you know I'm goingto say this, you can hear it
coming, I'm sure buildrelationship right, no matter
(18:44):
what they may imply.
Relationships are important forall students.
You have to be able to investin your difficult folks or you
have to be able to find somebodyelse who can.
Yeah, and you've got toremember this is a long game.
This is not going to be amatter of sitting down together
(19:06):
two or three times and all of asudden you're campus besties.
It doesn't work that way.
Depending on their age or theirgrade level, a student may have
been ostracized, they may havebeen marginalized in school for
quite some time, and so it'sgoing to take a while to gain
their trust.
They may have written everyoneoff around them, you know, or
(19:30):
they may have had experienceswhere folks looked like they
were attempting to get to knowthe student, but really were
trying to build thatrelationship for the purpose of
manipulation, and once thestudent didn't comply in as
quickly a manner as the adultwould have liked, they retreat,
right.
They pull away from thatrelationship and just go.
(19:53):
Oh well, I just don't know whatto do with them.
I tried, right.
This is a long game, and when Isay long game, sometimes that's
weeks, sometimes it's months,sometimes it's years.
And so are you prepared toinvest in that?
You really need to take a goodlong think about it.
(20:14):
Second, to support students withthese types of behaviors on
campus, let's just take allthese little behavior charts,
rip them up in little tinypieces and set them on fire.
Please get rid of the behaviorcharts.
For a student who doesn'tunderstand why reward or
(20:34):
punishment should influencetheir behavior, a chart ain't
gonna do it.
Behaviorism with theseoppositional behaviors, in my
opinion, fail spectacularly, andso what I would propose instead
is skill building with students, right, teaching them how to
(20:55):
utilize some skill subsets intheir classroom.
What I mean by that is, if youhave an oppositional student and
they're directed, you know, toget to work on that assignment,
get that completed, of coursethey're going to say no right,
or they're going to shut down,or they're going to refuse to
complete the work.
(21:19):
Lots of students with thesetypes of behaviors really
appreciate a choice.
You can do this or you can dothat.
If you can craft these choicescorrectly, you're going to be
giving them two options.
Either one would be what youwould want to see, and so that's
kind of the game on this is togive them two desired outcomes
and let them choose the one theywant to pursue.
You can also teach students howto pursue alternative
(21:41):
activities when they're just notfeeling what they're supposed
to be doing Now.
Does this give them theopportunity just to completely
disengage and not do it?
No, but if you set limits, ifyou set some parameters for this
, give them the option to atsome times choose some
alternative activities, you maysee some improvement overall.
(22:04):
And again, this is a long game.
It's not going to be one or twotimes and all of a sudden
they're a new person.
But giving them choices, givingthem some control in their
environment, typically helps.
And then we've got to practicethese.
It's not something that we canjust direct them to do in the
classroom.
(22:24):
If they're presented with arequest they don't want to
follow, their brain isimmediately going to fly toward
how can I get out of this asquickly as possible, right, and
so they're not going to be ableto think through their options,
they're not going to be able toreason through what they want to
do next.
So we must practice with thembeforehand, at different times
(22:44):
during their day, to really makesure that we're setting them up
for success.
And then, last, in that line ofthought of getting rid of the
behavior charts, of skillbuilding and practicing
exercising appropriate choices,we've also got to maintain
consistent routines andschedules in the classroom.
(23:06):
Y'all, some of our classroomsare really struggling in this
area.
Our masterminders talk all thetime about walking into
classrooms that feel likefree-for-alls.
Students are getting up,they're wandering around,
they're calling out, they'retalking over the teacher.
(23:26):
We heard a story here recentlyabout a teacher who was teaching
over students who were talkingover the teacher, and it just
kept getting louder and louderand louder on both sides.
We really have got to supportour teachers in good classroom
management.
We've really got to supportthem in asserting their
authority in the classroom andso that they can provide these
(23:49):
consistent routines andschedules.
It's a lot of work on the frontend to get these systems in
place, but, boy oh boy, does itmake everybody's lives easier
when students know what toexpect, they know what's coming
next and they know what they cando in the moment.
It's just phenomenal, thechange that good routine and
(24:11):
structure can make.
Third, when we're working withstudents who are showing
oppositional or defianttendencies, we need to build
relationships.
Oh wait, I already said that,right?
Yes, I did say that and I'mgoing to say it again.
Why?
Because it is so important Findwho the student gravitates
(24:37):
toward.
Who do they seem like theymight want to spend a little bit
more time with on campus?
Are there some students thattend to be more positive peer
influences, who may be able to,you know, sit closer to your
student in question, who may beable to mentor them a little bit
(24:57):
or, you know, just be apositive role model?
I think there's a lot to besaid for those kinds of
relationships.
So, if we can encourage those,help teachers find potential
candidates, offer somelunchtimes for them to sit and
talk and get to know each other.
Whatever it is we need to do,we need to try to help students
build relationships on campus,and then we also need to be able
(25:21):
to find or offer resources.
There are usually very high ACEscores for these kids.
Do you remember the ACE scores,which are a measure of the
adverse childhood experiencesthat a student has had in their
lifetime?
What's going on at home?
(25:43):
What do these students need athome?
What do they need at school?
What do their parents need?
Do the parents need some sortof support?
If you have a social workeravailable, deploy them.
Get them involved with thisfamily.
If there's no social worker,determine what the family needs
through some person-centeredmeans.
(26:04):
Build those relationships, havesome real conversation without
the urge to jump to a worksheetor jump to reframing or jump to
identifying emotions.
Just talk to them like a person, like a human being, and build
those bridges.
Determine what they need, whattheir family may need, and then
(26:26):
find those resources and offerthem.
Also, don't forget that if youthink a child has experienced a
significant level of trauma intheir life, they may need a
level of support you can'tprovide in school.
That would be when you wouldneed to refer them out to a
therapist in your area.
(26:46):
Investigate some programsavailable within your schools
on-site therapists, telehealththerapists, community therapists
, whatever you can find.
Get them involved in someservices to help them with their
oppositional or defiantbehaviors.
And my last tool when you'redealing with suspected ODD is
(27:08):
build relationships.
For the third time, y'all.
I cannot stress this enoughRelationship is going to be your
golden ticket, y'all.
I think it's so important thatwe recognize the potential for
students that we do not box themin with these crazy labels.
(27:29):
And if I had my way, I don'tthink I would hear anybody say
oppositional, defiant disorderon a school campus, except maybe
once every I don't know fewyears, because that should be so
far from our frame of reference.
We need to be in the businessof supporting students,
identifying what their needs are, helping them learn how to make
(27:52):
healthy choices in theclassroom and helping their
teachers learn how to work withthem as well, so that everyone
can move towards success.
I hope this has been helpfulfor you.
I hope it's helped you kind ofre-examine how you think about
students with difficultbehaviors, how you approach
those situations and how youtalk to your staff about them.
(28:16):
In the moment, I think it'sreally important that we be able
to be confident enough whenthese conversations come up to
say you know, I know that termgets tossed around a lot, but
I'd feel much more comfortableif we just talked about
difficult behaviors.
I think we're going to get alot further that way, because we
(28:37):
know difficult behaviors can bechanged right, and that's what
we're here for.
We're here to guide and inspirestudents toward their best,
most fulfilling outcomes.
Hey, listen, I know I've toldyou before, but I want to tell
you again how important the workis that you're doing.
(28:58):
As we release this episode aboutmid-April.
This is the tough time of year,right.
Things start feeling reallyhard.
So I just want to remind youthat, even on the hard days,
even when it feels like there'sso much to do, right, how are we
ever going to get this donebefore the end of the school
year?
Your students are so lucky tohave you on campus supporting
(29:20):
them, believing in them andlearning so that you can be the
best school counselor for themyou can be, and you've been here
learning with me today.
I can't thank you enough forthat and I can't wait to talk to
you next time.
I'll be back soon with anotherepisode of the School for School
Counselors podcast.
Until then, I hope you have thebest week ever.
(29:42):
Take care, my friend.
You know it's funny when Ipulled that episode and thought,
hey, you know, I betterre-listen to that.
I bet it's probably prettyentertaining.
Being that it was almost twoyears ago in my podcasting
journey, I was still pretty newto this whole thing, wasn't
(30:04):
really sure what I was doing andit was taking me hours and
hours to get one episode ready.
But I gotta admit I think itwasn't bad and I hope you felt
the same way.
Hey, if this got you thinkingabout oppositional behaviors and
reframing maybe the way you seesome of your most challenging
students on campus, I want toremind you we have this
(30:27):
oppositional behavior playbook,as well as our entire playbook
collection, available to ourSchool for School Counselors
Mastermind members.
This is what we do month in andmonth out in the Mastermind
Membership.
It's an amazing collaborativecommunity of school counselors
unlike anywhere else you couldever join, and I would love for
(30:51):
you to have a seat at that tablewith us as well.
You can check out all of thedetails at
schoolforschoolcounselorscom.
Slash mastermind to up levelyour school counseling game,
build your professional fluencyand finally be seen as a go-to
authority on your campus.
(31:12):
Hey, also, if you enjoyed thisepisode, would you do me a favor
and go ahead, subscribe to thepodcast.
That way you know you're nevergoing to miss a future episode.
And then, if you're feelingsuper charitable, go give us a
rating or a review in yourpodcast platform.
That's worth more to me thananything else, because it lets
(31:35):
me know if I'm on the righttrack and if I'm serving you
well, and it also helps otherschool counselors find this
podcast.
So if you could find a fewminutes in your heart to go give
a rating and review, I would beforever in your debt.
All right, I'm going to bid yougoodbye, but I do promise I'll
be back again soon with anotherepisode of the School for School
(31:58):
Counselors podcast.
Happy holidays to you, nomatter what you celebrate, and I
can't wait to visit with youagain.
Be well, my friend.