April 26, 2023 • 44 mins
Pythons are an invasive species in Florida and present a threat to native mammal species. With an average of 22 to 84 eggs per clutch, the python population is thriving, but what can be done?
In this episode of Science by the Slice, you will hear from, Paul Evans, a science writer and Outreach Coordinator for the University of Florida’s Fort Lauderdale Research and Education Center. He is also a researcher with the University of Florida's "Croc Docs." Listen to this episode to learn more about invasive pythons in Florida.
Resources:
University of Florida's Croc Docs
FWC Exotic Pet Amnesty Program
FWC Burmese Python Webpage
IveGot1 Mobile App for Apple
IveGot1 Mobile App for Android
Transcripts available here: https://piecenter.com/media/podcast/#transcript
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Music "Waltzing in the Rye" by Kai Engel Available at https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Kai_Engel/lesicia/waltzing-in-the-rye/ Under CC BY license Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International (CC BY-NC 4.0), https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ricky Telg (00:04):
This is Science by the Slice, a podcast from the
University of Florida'sInstitute of Food and
Agricultural Sciences, Centerfor Public Issues Education. In
this podcast, experts discussthe science of issues affecting
our daily lives revealed themotivations behind the decisions
people make, and ultimatelyprovide insight to solutions for
our lives.
Phillip Stokes (00:30):
Welcome to Science by the Slice, I'm
Phillip Stokes, educationcoordinator with the PIE Center.
An ounce of prevention is wortha pound of cure. Many of you
have probably heard that phrase,but who said it? And what was it
in reference to? For that we goback to an article about
(00:52):
preventing fires and citiespublished in 1735 in the
Pennsylvania Gazette written byBenjamin Franklin. Hhe wrote,
being old and lame have my handsand thereby uncapable of
assisting my fellow citizenswhen their houses are on fire, I
must beg them to take in goodpart, the following hints on the
(01:12):
subject of fires in the firstplace as an ounce of prevention
is worth a pound of cure. So whyam I talking about prevention?
Because today's episode is allabout the Burmese Python, an
invasive species in SouthFlorida. And when thinking about
invasive species prevention is amajor component of the overall
(01:34):
management strategy. Onechallenge however, when thinking
about prevention is that it'seasier to measure the presence
of a problem, such as withBurmese pythons, than the
absence of one, potentially adifferent non native species
that has not yet established inFlorida. another roadblock that
we as humans have against takingpreventative measures is a
(01:56):
tendency to overvalue instantgratification, and undervalue
anything that will give us longterm rewards. This is referred
to as present bias, a especiallypernicious obstacle we face when
it comes to achieving goals andreducing harm. That said,
whether considering urban firesas Benjamin Franklin did, or
(02:18):
Burmese Pythons, a reptile thathas metaphorically spread like a
fire throughout the Evergladesin South Florida. It's vital to
understand the issue and haveknowledge to ensure that
management decisions are wellinformed, and resources are
allocated appropriately. So fortoday's episode, I spoke with
Paul Evans, science writer andOutreach Coordinator for the
(02:39):
University of Florida's FortLauderdale Research and
Education Center, as well asresearcher with the University
of Florida's "Croc Docs," a teamof biologists, ecological
modelers, and outreachspecialists on the forefront of
wildlife research in SouthFlorida in the Caribbean, Paul
and I discuss how pythons becameestablished in Florida, the
impacts they are having on theecosystem in economy of Florida,
(03:03):
as well as some things thateveryone should keep in mind
when understanding how we canprevent the spread of non native
wildlife.
Well, Paul Evans, thank you somuch for being on the PIE
Center's podcast Science by theSlice. It's pleasure to have you
(03:23):
here. Talking a little bit aboutBurmese Pythons today in Florida
and all of their impacts. We'llget into all of that. But first
off, just tell me a little bitabout yourself, who you are your
background and where you work.
Paul Evans (03:37):
Yeah, so I'm Paul Evans. I have worked with
various types of wildlifethrough Alaska, Scotland, parts
of Florida before moving down toFort Lauderdale, where I work
for the University of Florida's"Croc Docs." So we are an
organization that's beenstudying crocodilians here in
America, as well as throughoutCentral and South America. And
(04:00):
we currently are very heavilyresearching invasive and non
native species here in SouthFlorida.
Phillip Stokes (04:07):
Wonderful. Yeah.
And you know, one thing aboutSouth Florida and you're in like
the Fort Lauderdale area,correct? You know, everything
that I've heard is South Floridais just like the prime habitat.
And like, considering all of thelike global shipping and
everything for invasive reptilesalmost in the world, right.
Paul Evans (04:31):
If we're not the most, I think we are possibly
top three in North America andthe United States. We are for
sure up there. And I thinkrecently, FWC actually just
caught people who were smugglingand 40 I think different types
of species of invasive and nonnative reptiles. So ya know,
(04:54):
it's still soul problem. Stillan active situation the amount
of import Taisha then like youmentioned with the environment
here, that's truly what has ledto such an expansion for so many
species, I mean, we have 63herpetofauna species that are
(05:15):
established here, several ofthem are small, several of them
are ones, we've all grown upseeing just different types of
anoles, different types oflizards. But the majority of
that has to do with the factthat it's a subtropical or as
you move into the keys, a newtropical habitat. So these are
(05:36):
around the world, the habitatsthat are going to have the most
biodiversity. So it's kind ofbuilt for a lot of these large
animals to come here and prettyeasily just start to take root
because they don't have toadjust too quickly to the type
of habitat.
Phillip Stokes (05:57):
Right? We're like, I don't know if this is a
politically correct statement,but it's like, we're like
America's Zoo. You know, likeyou're in South Florida. It's
like, you come here and yousee...Yeah, it's like Jurassic
Park. There you go. JurassicPark. Yeah. Yeah. And you
mentioned how like, you know,pets, that's one of the reasons,
(06:18):
you know, people like those likeexotic pets. That's like, what
brought the Python here, theBurmese python in the first
place, right.
Paul Evans (06:28):
Sometime in the mid mid 90s. Through parts of the
early 2000s. There were almost100,000 confirmed Burmese
pythons imported into thestates.
Phillip Stokes (06:38):
Okay, wait, say that again? How many?
Paul Evans (06:40):
Almost 100,000 And that's confirmed. And these
animals for the most part themand Ball Pythons, one of the
reasons they became and reasonwhy Ball Pythons today still are
a, a, quote unquote, good pet,is because they are more timid.
There are availabilities forbreeding and other stuff like
(07:01):
that at a possibly easier ratein captivity than a lot of other
species. So, you know,obviously, not all 100s of 1000s
of those animals got out and allof them were just to Florida.
But you can kind of start to seewhen you have such a large
importation over the course of adecade, why you're gonna start
(07:21):
to have problems?
Phillip Stokes (07:23):
I had no, I mean, no clue it was that many
that were important? I mean, Iguess I thought like, it was, it
was much a much smaller number.
And yeah, I mean, like, I'mthinking about, if you bring in
that many, of course, one ortwo, or dozens are going to get
out either intentionally oraccidentally. And it's what we
(07:44):
talked about before just theprime climate and ecosystem.
It's, it just makes sense.
Paul Evans (07:54):
Right? Oh, yeah, completely. I mean, where they,
where they live typically, iseither parts of Southeast Asia.
So Thailand, Vietnam, Laos, andthen as you move down some parts
of Indonesia is where they alsowill live, which Indonesia is
just, you know, a giantarchipelago. So the Florida Keys
(08:16):
are just kind of a smallerversion of Indonesia and in the
sense of island ecology. So itis kind of one of those things
where a lot of the lower part ofFlorida lines up so perfectly
with what they're already usedto, you know, they need a lot of
freshwater what is Florida havea lot of freshwater.
Phillip Stokes (08:35):
And that is why a lot of the Burmese pythons are
in the Everglades. Right. It's,it's like the sea of grass.
Right. So that would make sense.
Paul Evans (08:44):
Yes. So roughly. I'm trying to remember the year for
Hurricane Andrew, but that iswhen a breeding facility slash
some type of zoo got destroyed,and a lot of snakes were
released. The confirmed numberfor that kind of goes back and
forth. But that is kind of knownas the big introduction. And
(09:08):
then since then, it's typicallyescapees. It's people who don't
want pets anymore. And nowthere's a lot of regulation and
a lot of that there's a lot ofways to kind of fight FWC as a
good program for Pet Amnesty. Soif people didn't want their pet
anymore, if they were to give itup to FWC, they don't have to
(09:31):
pay the consequences, if youwill. So there's a lot in place
now but you know, that was downin Miami Dade is where that big
release happened. So you'rejust, you know, truthfully after
the giant urban sprawl, that isthe Miami area, it's just, you
know, little agriculturalfields, canal systems, etc, etc,
(09:53):
that all leads into theEverglades, so it was pretty
easy for them to move that way.
Phillip Stokes (10:00):
What is the range currently in Florida,
Paul Evans (10:03):
the range of we're gonna go kind of the confirmed
population is just about, like,the most southern bit is just
around Key Largo or North KeyLargo, kind of Crocodile Lake
area, a little bit in Key Largo,but there have not been
confirmed expansion ordistribution further down, the
(10:27):
most northern range is justaround Loxahatchee on this side
is right around there. And thenas you kind of move across the
state, you're going to kind ofgo over towards Naples. And then
most recently around Cape Coralis where we've started to have
more. Now the jump between thatside on the West Coast could be
(10:51):
human facilitated, it could bethat there's just some
distribution lines between therewe haven't been able to confirm
yet. And we have of course isrelative to the whole giant
teams of organizations that areresearching pythons, not just
us, but yeah, you know, allthrough Big Cypress, through
Everglades, up through severaldifferent water conservation
(11:15):
areas, through neighborhoods,etc, etc. They're pretty hearty
animal, like, you could findthem like, you know, they find
they find them sometimes inwinter, and people's car
engines, so they don'tnecessarily have to only be in
the swamps, there are otherplaces that they would be able
to be alright with,
Phillip Stokes (11:34):
like, like an urban environment, like a, like
a suburban neighborhood kind ofthing.
Paul Evans (11:38):
Yeah, I'm sure they're not gonna love a
skyscraper, but you know,suburban neighborhoods, etc,
etc. You know, people don't liketo think of it as cats and dogs
and like, you know, rats andwhatever that come from human
development as a food source,but they 100% are and can be a
(12:00):
food source for these animals.
Phillip Stokes (12:02):
So let's talk a little bit about just the kind
of natural history that just thefact sheet type of information
for a Burmese Python. So what dothey look like? How big do they
get? We know they're snakes?
What do they eat? We you talkedabout? Like some small mammals
and things like that, but whatelse do they eat? So what are
just some of those kind of broadfacts about them?
Paul Evans (12:25):
Yeah, so we'll start with size, because that's that's
tends to be what people noticemost about them. So outside of
being a hatchling hatchlingsprobably are going to be about
maybe 16 inches to just abouttwo ish feet, when they first
come out, where adults kind ofstart sub adults and adults,
(12:51):
you'll probably get around sixfeet is when we kind of get to
more of that sub adult stage.
And then around 12, or 13 feetis when they've kind of become
adults. Now from there,specifically, the females tend
to put on a lot more mass a lotmore weight. And they are the
animals that often reach the17-18 footers that you'll see in
(13:12):
the news. In captivity, Ibelieve a couple zoos have
gotten them close to 20 feet.
Honestly, I would not besurprised if a 20 footer exists
somewhere out in the Everglades.
So with those, as they getbigger, oftentimes, especially
(13:33):
that clutch size, or that eggsize is going to get bigger. So
they're going to be producingmore eggs, I think the largest
female found was like 215 poundsand almost 100 eggs or something
in her, so massive in terms oflooks, they're going to have
that very typical pronouncedconstrictor head. So it kind of
(13:56):
has, it gets very thin afterwhat are essentially behind the
jaw. And that's going to be sothey are able to detach and open
their mouth very wide afterthey've constrict animals. After
that the rest of the main thingyou're really going to notice is
(14:16):
their dorsal pattern. So theirdorsal pattern, typically is
going to still be in thatbrownish black, almost all of
green stage with a lighter tanback background, if you will.
And it's going to kind of looklike a giraffe or it's going to
look like a puzzle piece. If youcould move all those dorsal
pieces together, they would kindof look like they line up from
(14:39):
that. That's actually one of thereasons why they're so good at
hiding is that type ofpatterning really does well as
an ambush predator when theyjust sit there because you know,
I essentially just described thecolor of shadows and you know,
dry vegetation. So they'll justsit in that in there. They're
very good, I think Think roughlyless than 5% is your actual
(15:01):
chance of like, identifying themand detecting them if you were
just out and about walkingthrough. So that's really low.
And that's why there's severalmethods for actually trying to
increase your odds of findingthem. But in terms of Natural
History, for more physicalstuff, that's probably just
(15:22):
about it that like, most peopleneed to be aware of, as you
know, size, what they look like,where they'll be just about
anywhere down here. As long asthey have an ability to find,
hopefully, small mammals. If notground nesting, or water.
shorebirds all that will dogreat. I think, to date, it's
(15:43):
like 41 different types of birdshave been found inside them. In
terms of mammals, I think everymammal has been found inside the
sides. And we're talking aboutthe peninsula, Florida
throughout the keys, you know,key deers and stuff like that.
(16:04):
That hasn't been determined yet.
They haven't quite made it thatfar south, but probably I think
just Florida Panthers and theblack bear are the only mammals
that have never been confirmedor were highly suspected.
Through Diet Analysis, but Yeah,Bob Cats, various types of
hares. Squirrels, you know, Ithink they pulled a husky out of
(16:28):
a Python at one point. I'm surepeople have seen in the news,
alligators. That's a very wellknown and discovered repeatedly.
I think the largest one I'veseen is a six and a half foot
Gator pulled out. That wasalmost a 17 foot individual. But
(16:49):
yeah, I mean, you that'sdefinitely known resource, but
it does tend to go both ways.
There are some large alligatorswho have been observed eating
pythons, but it is just one ofthose things where, you know, a
sub adult, six, five foot Gator,it's not going to be able to do
(17:10):
too too much to a very largeindividual of Python.
Phillip Stokes (17:16):
Yeah, that is.
That is one of the things it'slike, when we think of Florida,
like alligators are one of thetop predators, at least and
especially with reptiles, butlike, yeah, it's like there's
there's a new a new king in townalmost, you know,
Paul Evans (17:33):
completely. That's why it kind of they took off so
well because you didn't have alot of the natural ecological
factors to kind of keep them incheck for so long. But it is one
of those things where it kind ofwas the perfect time because
(17:54):
South Florida this ecosystemevolved, you know, for a million
or so years to be too largecrocodilians, small predatory. I
say small, but, you know, fiveto six feet, predatory venomous
snakes, and a wide range ofdifferent predatory and
(18:19):
herbivorous birds, and thenHardy swamp mammals. So you
know, the black bear andFlorida, Panther, bobcat, all
these things. And then, youknow, over time, some of those
populations, whether it's due tohumans, whether it's due to
other changes in the habitatslowly started to dwindle, and
(18:40):
several those have bounced back,but several of those still have
dwindled, to the point where,when an apex predator comes in,
which kind of is what theBurmese python is, in their in
their home range, there arethings that eat them, you know,
they there are a lot ofpressures actually, from being
over hunted, they are listed asvulnerable. And so it is kind of
(19:02):
one of those things where, youknow, we don't have King cobras,
we don't have, you know, tigers,all these other large animals
that could have a big impact onlarge Burmese pythons, we have
people in the occasional, youknow, maybe Bobcat there, or
(19:24):
alligator that's going to takethem out. For the most part,
it's really going to be humansand whether it's on purpose
through the Florida Pythoncontractor system, or on
accident, and it's peopledriving on the road and just,
Phillip Stokes (19:39):
so you mentioned that they're thriving because
you know,the conditions are right, there
aren't a lot of those samepressures that they would have
in their native range. And youmentioned that how efficient of
hunters they are. So what isthat doing? What is the shakeup
kind of down in, in SouthFlorida and what are the
(19:59):
implications,
Paul Evans (20:01):
oh, they're never good. They're never good
implications. You know, they'rean ambush predator. And in their
home range, there are seasonalvariations. So whether it's
animals moving through whetherit is a more severe wet and dry
season that occurs, where theywill actually fast where they'll
(20:22):
sit and not eat, they don't havethat here. So that's kind of the
other problem is this is abuffet for them. They're an
ambush predator. So they're kindof just gonna want to curl up
and sit and wait for them tokind of sense that a mammal or
a, you know, like a heron, awoodstork or something like that
(20:45):
is nearby. And then that's whenthey're going to strike. And a
lot of this has led to severeplummets of native mammals. You
know, some of those areendangered species, some of them
especially in Key Largo, areendemic. So endemic means they
only live there. So the KeyLargo would rat is one of those
(21:07):
that already endangered, theydon't have more habitat, they
just have, you know, those partsof the archipelago. And, you
know, they're being eaten allthe time by Burmese pythons,
you're having, you know,somewhere between 80 and 90% of
some of these male populationscrash in areas where Burmese
(21:31):
Pythons are moving through,that's one of the reasons why we
actually will do surveys andlook for where we're seeing
certain types of mammals.
Because specifically some Marshhare species, if you're able to
still find several of them, itlikely means you don't have a
healthy population of BurmesePythons. Yeah. So down in like
Everglades, we rarely seebunnies. But as you move up
(21:52):
towards parts of Loxahatchee,and further north, you're
finding a lot more of thatvariety, that natural
biodiversity so, so that's kindof where you started to have
problems. There's a lot of thatbiodiversity, that's loss,
because Burmese pythons are, youknow, like I said, they kind of
have a buffet, they're able toeat when they want to eat. And
(22:12):
that's part of the reason alsothey've kind of grown so
exponentially, not just inpopulation, but in size. You
know, they're not pulling 19footers in Laos and Thailand all
the time. Sure, it happens, itdoes happen. But not necessarily
to the the freak numbers that weget here. And it's just because,
you know, it's it's a GoldenCorral for them almost.
Phillip Stokes (22:36):
Yeah, it's you said, like, their native range,
they have times of like, feastand famine. And reptiles are for
it's my understanding that theyjust, they just keep growing and
growing and growing, right. Imean, if I'm understanding that
correctly, they
Paul Evans (22:54):
Yeah, from an allometric standpoint, or like a
growth standpoint, theymathematically will, will grow
pretty, pretty close toexponentially. Obviously, it
slows to a certain point, likethe males aren't necessarily
going to get that big, but youknow, the males can still get up
into 14-15, yada, yada, yada,but it just kind of depends
(23:17):
where they're putting theirenergy too. But they definitely,
you know, if left unchecked,they probably could easily get
more into the 20s. Andpotentially, you know, start to,
you know, the, the FloridaBurmese python, if you will,
could end up being the longestsnake ever, if they were some of
that the science for like actualgrowth with reptiles as a whole,
(23:42):
it really still depends, youknow, turtles, crocodiles, a lot
of those, it is kind ofexpected, they would never slow,
it would just will, they'd neverstop, it would just be a very
slow growth over time. So a lotof that is likely and modeled to
be so but obviously, a lot ofit's going to kind of depend on
(24:04):
like, those individuals, thosekind of variables that they
have, but here in Florida,there, they definitely have more
of a chance to really push thosegrowth limits.
Phillip Stokes (24:16):
I mean, that is pretty fascinating. I mean, you
can't like you can't alwayspredict these things. And there
are like all of theseconsequences, of course, I mean,
you know, we talked about someof the larger species. You
talked about hare, I'm sureraccoons are hurting and
different animals like that, butlike, what are some of the other
(24:38):
like, secondary consequencesare, you know, is it changing
landscapes? Is it like alteringthe production of certain plants
because you're not having seed,you know, deposits of different
you know, from mammals. I'm justlike, throwing that out there.
You know, like
Paul Evans (24:56):
That is a fascinating thought on if seed
dispersal was being jeopardizedin some way because you are
right that you know you arelosing probably love your
primary seed dispersal. I don'tknow for sure about that. But
that was a fascinating thing tolook into. But in terms of like
secondary side effects, there'skind of two main ones, one of
(25:19):
them is the economics. So theyare going to, you know, like,
there's millions at this, thatare going towards this. We are
no longer you know, just thatcontainment. If anyone's
familiar with the invasioncurve, there different phases,
we are in long term management.
So although yes, you know, thereis a containment plan and
(25:41):
keeping them in the southernmostpart of Florida for as much as
we can, they're also going to bekind of a struggle, if you will,
to really look at just whereelse they're going to go. A lot
of these financial problems thatpop up is because you know, we
(26:05):
have the contracting system. Soyou have people who are getting
paid by the hour, they'regetting paid, you know, I think
by the foot after six feet, orsomething like that, which is
great, you know, they've removedsomewhere, I think the number is
roughly 9000 something now. Soit's a lot that they've been
able to remove. So that programstarted, I believe 2015 or 2016,
something in there. But that allcosts money, you know, that all
(26:29):
costs energy. And the problemwith this whole equation is
there's no end, there's no we dothis, and it's done. We do this,
and we hope it's better, we dothis, and we hope we learn more.
And then the second kind ofnegative side effect is
unfortunately ecological onethat impacts a lot of our native
snakes. So they brought a SouthEast Asian pentastome, which is
(26:53):
kind of a type of parasite. Andit has been found in several
Native snakes, some gartersnakes, some cottonmouth, water
snakes, etc, it's it's found inthem, you know, it's not great,
and it's going to definitelyhinder the life of those animals
(27:13):
and possibly even kill them. Andthen the the other problem with
that is that some of thosespecies don't just live in
Florida, some of those types ofnative snake, I think the
furthest north, the parasite hasbeen found is around I think
just north of Gainesville. Butyou know, but from there, you're
(27:37):
just opening the can of wormsfor where the rest of those, you
know, rest of those parasitescan go are talking about a
parasite that could potentially,you know, get into every lower
48 state.
Phillip Stokes (27:53):
That's, I mean, you see the big animal, but of
course, you can't see theparasite, you know, with your
eyes. Oh, yeah. And it's, Imean, it's like what happens a
lot with our agricultural cropsand things like that, you know,
like, you get one little, youknow, small insect or something
that's, that's carrying asecondary, like parasite or pest
(28:15):
or something, and it it can justtake off and spread and, and we
everything is justinterconnected, right?
Everything just kind of workstogether. That's, that is right,
the ecosystem. And one, oneshake, you know, one, one big
shake up, I should say here canjust throw everything off,
Paul Evans (28:34):
No, completely. And that's kind of you know, the
right?
other. I know, we're mostlyfocusing on pythons today, but
that's the added variable ofNile monitors, Asian water
monitors, Argentine black andwhite Taegu, black spiny tail
iguana, Guana, green, iguana,Peters rock Agama, like all
(28:56):
these other herpaphona, canetoad are here and are part of a
problem as well. So that's kindof where you're starting to deal
with even more impacts is that,you know, pythons are kind of
the first big impacts. And then,on top of that, you have now you
know, five to six other speciesof invasive reptile that are
(29:21):
having negative impacts that youalso have to monitor on top of,
you know, Burmese Pythons.
Phillip Stokes (29:27):
Yeah, so one thing I do want to ask a little
bit about some of the researchthat's being done, you know,
with with Croc dogs and justotherwise FWC or any other
agencies or centers, but I knowone of the things is there's
monitoring or tracking, Ishould say, right with those
little radio chips, andtelemetry. Thank you. And one
(29:51):
thing I heard years ago is youcould basically be right on top
of the snake and you still don'tknow where it is.
Paul Evans (30:00):
Oh, I can firsthand tell you that was true. Because
when we started tracking AI, weit's called, like a walk in,
because you're trying to walk upon it, you want to like, see
where it is see how close we canactually get to it. A lot of
this is because you're trying tofind breeding aggregations,
especially this time of year,which those who don't know, they
(30:21):
kind of breed in this sex ball,if you will, where there's one
female, typically one or at one,one to a few males. So the whole
point of that is, you know, ifyou track the female, you're
able to go in and remove males.
But ya know, I've been a footaway from, I think, 13 footer,
and no, could not could not seejust sitting there little
(30:47):
shallow water vegetation. But yaknow, with the scout St.
Projects, there are a few. We doours throughout part of various
water conservation and wildlifemanagement areas over here in
South Florida. Crocodile Lake,they have a great scouting
program where they also usedogs, as almost a drug dog to
(31:07):
track them as well, which hashad really good success too, as
it's just another form of, youknow, if you teach a dog to
smell and find it that way, youknow, they're not going to be
tricked by their eyes. They'regoing, you know, we're humans.
So humans, sometimes we trickourselves. We're like, yes,
that's a snake and it's not. Andthen sometimes we're like, no,
(31:28):
it couldn't be and it is sothat's definitely an another
interesting element. And thenUSGS and partnership with I
believe Dr. Remo says, lab. Theyhave done telemetry. I think
they do telemetry with adults,but they also do it with
hatchlings, which has led toseveral interesting discoveries
(31:50):
of some of the animals thatpredate on hatchling, Burmese
pythons. So, you know, severallarge raptors, you're getting
into cotton mouths, bobcats,etc, a lot of a lot of very
interesting things that we arestarting to see native species
kind of combat some of theseinvasive species as well now.
Phillip Stokes (32:14):
I want to I want to get into like, like
management, before we kind ofclose up and a little bit about
prevention as well. But werethere any other research
projects or things that youwanted to highlight? Before we
kind of moved on?
Paul Evans (32:28):
I mean, I think Diet Analysis is a very interesting
aspect, as well, as we here at"Croc Docs", we work in
partnership with a lot of thePython contractors or
organizations, so South WaterManagement and FWC to try to
look at the efficiency of, youknow, removing pythons as a
(32:50):
management plan as a kind ofcareer, if you will, like, how
effective is that in terms ofwhat we know from the future,
and what we know from the pastof detection rates, and versus
the time, the effort, the money,etc, etc, to kind of look at
what we're able to gauge fromthis program, as well as trying
(33:15):
to back into like Diet Analysisand body condition and things
like that, really start to lookat, you know, are we starting to
see less healthy individuals bebrought in? Are we reaching some
level of containment from a, youknow, a viable resource level?
(33:37):
So winter is the carryingcapacity for some of these
Burmese Pythons and certainhabitats, when are they hitting
it? If what is possibly changingfrom a diet standpoint, because
you know, people have opened up16 foot animals and still found,
you know, little, little sixinch rodents. So it doesn't
necessarily stop, just becausethey're getting bigger, just
(34:00):
because they can eat analligator doesn't mean they
always want to, they still haveto sit there and digest it and
it takes time. So there are alot of things that are very
interesting, from a behavioralstandpoint that I'm sure in the
next 10 years, there's going tobe a lot more confirmations. But
right now, there are still youknow, a lot of mysteries,
especially with distribution.
That's why Telemetry is such animportant thing is trying to
(34:24):
figure out where they're movingto. But a secondary way if
people you know, kind of movinginto prevention if people kind
of want to help there is a greatapp called I've got one similar
to iNaturalist but it'sspecifically been made mostly
for invasive species throughoutparts of Florida, and people can
just put in their informationfor what they saw. Where are
(34:46):
they saw it and it all getsconfirmed verified by
biologists. So that's been veryhelpful. There's been a lot of
not first but we'll say likesecond or third kind of
sightings in certain areas, wehad questions about that come
through that resource. Andthat's very helpful because, you
know, we can't be everywhere.
(35:07):
There's probably a solid 100 to200 individuals who work in the
constant management and researchof whatnot, on different levels,
whether it's grad student allthe way up to, you know,
professors and research. But alot of that, you know, we all
live in certain areas, if Pythonstart to pop up, some are
(35:29):
further along, you know, theEast Coast in Florida, like
Daytona or something like that.
A lot of us aren't, aren't upthere, because we're so used to
working down here. So it is veryhelpful in other parts of the
state just to start to see, youknow, if they do continue to
distribute up north, you know,how else can we get that
information if it's not frompeople who live there?
Phillip Stokes (35:51):
Yeah, that's a great thing to mention the the
I've got one app. And, yeah,that's really cool that it's
almost like a citizen science,but also like, a way to report
things as well, so
Paul Evans (36:06):
And I should say, it's not just for pythons, if
you are a gardener, if you're afisherman, you're not, you're
not necessarily going to behelping the research I do on the
daily, but you will be helpingsomeone in the management
research they do daily.
Phillip Stokes (36:18):
For sure. I do want to maybe and or start to
wrap up with the idea ofprevention, you know, this
overall topic of prevention, youknow, what have we learned about
the spread of invasive reptilesand non native species that we
(36:39):
can really take for it to learn?
I don't want to sound like,pessimistic, but it's like, are
we just like, Are humans just socurious? And so, you know, we're
motivated by different things.
So like, there's always going tobe kind of that, that bad apple?
(37:00):
I don't know, you know, what canwe learn about this to help with
prevention in the future?
Paul Evans (37:05):
I mean, I don't think you're too far off by you
know, calling humanity a applein the sense because it is
literally, Jurassic Park, youknow, if anyone has watched all
six films of Jurassic Park andJurassic World, it is humans
falling to their intrusivethoughts or morbid curiosity
(37:27):
continuously. And a lot of thatis kind of where some of this
invasion ecology problemsstarted, where you have, wow, I
would love to have a crocodileas a pet. So people got, you
know, in the 80s, and 90s, theygot a Spectacle Cayman, which,
when you get it, it's, you know,they're tiny, when they're
(37:49):
little, they're very cute, butlike, they're not huge, maybe
probably a foot or somethingwhen they're like, they're
really, really tiny, but stillnot huge. You know, you can keep
in your bathtub and have a greattime. But then these animals,
they start very small, and theygrow and they grow and they get
very, very large, what happensis people don't always
(38:09):
understand, you know, when youthink a six foot long snake,
you're like, okay, but it'sgonna curl up, it's not always
going to be that big, and that'strue, but they still need a
certain amount of habitat space.
So then as that animal movestowards 10-12 feet, you now have
an animal that you know, isgoing to require even more
space, more food is, you know,probably becoming harder and
(38:32):
harder to actually hold all thetime. So as they get bigger, and
you start working with it lessin terms of like, you know,
bringing it out, etc, etc, it'sgonna be less habituated and
become more kind of conditioned,possibly not necessarily to be
violent, but it's not gonna beas used to being handled. So
(38:52):
that can lead to some aggressionthat can lead to it not being as
welcomed to humans. And then youhave an animal that you've now
have labeled as possibly mean,it's big, may be scary to some
people, you're you're living offand then, you know, for a while
people are just like, well, Idon't want to kill it, it's an
(39:12):
animal I've had as a pet, I loveit. And they just let it go. And
unfortunately, that stillexists. Today, you know, this is
not something that just happenedin like the 90s or the 80s or
the 2000s. You know, it happenedfive years ago, it probably
happened somewhere unfortunatelyfor some other species, you
(39:32):
know, today like that, that iswhy there is a lot more
regulation now. So, there areprohibited species. So, most
commonly known, largeconstrictors and several
venomous species are on theselists. There are class three
permits so only certain peoplecan keep some of these animals.
(39:54):
Whether it is I believe theywere grandfathered in When they
had something prior or now theyare a class three permit holder.
And a lot of it comes down tolike what they have, what kind
of inspections through FWC andthe other governing bodies. I
don't believe a lot of theseanimals. You can, like I don't,
if someone shares on a Burmesepython, like you're not, no
(40:19):
one's getting that back as a petthrough this process, but they
will at least not in the stateof Florida. But they will
through FWC is amnesty program,I believe they partner with
Southwest and some of theseanimals do leave the state. So
they will go to educationcenters, to zoos to other
private organizations throughoutthe United States. So in that
sense, there is some good, thereare some other paths, you know,
(40:42):
if you're, if you're listeningto this, and you don't want you
know, your giant reptileanymore, there are ways to get
rid of it in a way that you'renot hurting the animal you've
raised, as well as you're nothurting the animals that live
here in Florida. But a lot of itI think just comes from
education, and furtherprevention of asking these
questions, trying to learn moreabout why it's a problem. And
(41:04):
then maybe from a morepsychological standpoint, asking
ourselves or asking, you know,people why they so badly want
some of these exotic, you know,animals, this wildlife to be a
pet to be something, you know,that it's not a lot of our pet
species have been domesticatedover hundreds of 1000s of years.
(41:25):
It's not something that justhappens in a day, some of these
species, you know, like I said,with ball pythons and Burmese
pythons, they're pretty hearty.
So that's one of the reasons whylike they did make a quote
unquote, good pet in terms oflike, they eat typically pretty
well. They're not naturally too,too aggressive. So there are a
(41:46):
lot of things that doesn't, justbecause something is possibly a
more calm or chill animal, itdoesn't really mean that it's
domesticated.
Phillip Stokes (41:56):
No, and I think that is a good message to put
out there. We can include a linkto like the amnesty program that
you mentioned, like in the shownotes. So if you're looking at,
you know, potentially, you know,figuring out what to do with
with some pets, or if you know,someone, or if you're listening,
you're like, hey, you know, thisis this is a opportunity to then
(42:18):
educate my my cousin, my friend,my neighbor, you know about some
of these things. So all likereally good points that you just
said, Are there any last thingsyou want to close with today,
before we end the episode,
Paul Evans (42:31):
I think just one more thing about that stuff is
also if you if you have it, andyou don't want to get rid of it,
but maybe you want to get betterat being a pet owner. There are
people you can reach out tothere's a lot of very good,
responsible pet owners fordifferent types of herbs, Ivana,
and resources that are outthere. So sometimes maybe it's a
hard situation with your petbecause you know, maybe don't
(42:54):
know everything, you don't haveall the education that maybe you
need to be better at it. Sothere's also you know, there's
also that path, I think also isa good thing as long as it's,
you know, legally owns and allthe other things that exists.
Phillip Stokes (43:08):
Well, Paul, thank you so much for being a
guest on Science by the Slice.
So much fun talking with you andlearning all about pythons and
of course just all the otherreptiles that you study down
there in the Fort Lauderdalearea.
Paul Evans (43:20):
Yeah, thank you so much. This was great.
Ricky Telg (43:25):
Science by the Slice is produced by the UF/IFAS
Center for Public IssuesEducation in Agriculture and
Natural Resources. Thanks forlistening to today's episode.
Subscribe to Science by theSlice on your favorite podcast
app and give us a rating orreview as well. Have a question
or comment? Send us an email topiecenter@ifas.ufl.edu. That's
(43:48):
piecenter, all one word, atifas, I-F-A-S, dot ufl dot edu.
We'd love to hear from you. Ifyou enjoyed today's episode,
consider sharing with a friendor colleague. Until next time,
thanks for listening to Scienceby the Slice.
This is Science by the Slice, a podcast from the
University of Florida'sInstitute of Food and
Agricultural Sciences, Centerfor Public Issues Education. In
this podcast, experts discussthe science of issues affecting
our daily lives revealed themotivations behind the decisions
people make, and ultimatelyprovide insight to solutions for
our lives.
Phillip Stokes (00:30):
Welcome to Science by the Slice, I'm
Phillip Stokes, educationcoordinator with the PIE Center.
An ounce of prevention is wortha pound of cure. Many of you
have probably heard that phrase,but who said it? And what was it
in reference to? For that we goback to an article about
(00:52):
preventing fires and citiespublished in 1735 in the
Pennsylvania Gazette written byBenjamin Franklin. Hhe wrote,
being old and lame have my handsand thereby uncapable of
assisting my fellow citizenswhen their houses are on fire, I
must beg them to take in goodpart, the following hints on the
(01:12):
subject of fires in the firstplace as an ounce of prevention
is worth a pound of cure. So whyam I talking about prevention?
Because today's episode is allabout the Burmese Python, an
invasive species in SouthFlorida. And when thinking about
invasive species prevention is amajor component of the overall
(01:34):
management strategy. Onechallenge however, when thinking
about prevention is that it'seasier to measure the presence
of a problem, such as withBurmese pythons, than the
absence of one, potentially adifferent non native species
that has not yet established inFlorida. another roadblock that
we as humans have against takingpreventative measures is a
(01:56):
tendency to overvalue instantgratification, and undervalue
anything that will give us longterm rewards. This is referred
to as present bias, a especiallypernicious obstacle we face when
it comes to achieving goals andreducing harm. That said,
whether considering urban firesas Benjamin Franklin did, or
(02:18):
Burmese Pythons, a reptile thathas metaphorically spread like a
fire throughout the Evergladesin South Florida. It's vital to
understand the issue and haveknowledge to ensure that
management decisions are wellinformed, and resources are
allocated appropriately. So fortoday's episode, I spoke with
Paul Evans, science writer andOutreach Coordinator for the
(02:39):
University of Florida's FortLauderdale Research and
Education Center, as well asresearcher with the University
of Florida's "Croc Docs," a teamof biologists, ecological
modelers, and outreachspecialists on the forefront of
wildlife research in SouthFlorida in the Caribbean, Paul
and I discuss how pythons becameestablished in Florida, the
impacts they are having on theecosystem in economy of Florida,
(03:03):
as well as some things thateveryone should keep in mind
when understanding how we canprevent the spread of non native
wildlife.
Well, Paul Evans, thank you somuch for being on the PIE
Center's podcast Science by theSlice. It's pleasure to have you
(03:23):
here. Talking a little bit aboutBurmese Pythons today in Florida
and all of their impacts. We'llget into all of that. But first
off, just tell me a little bitabout yourself, who you are your
background and where you work.
Paul Evans (03:37):
Yeah, so I'm Paul Evans. I have worked with
various types of wildlifethrough Alaska, Scotland, parts
of Florida before moving down toFort Lauderdale, where I work
for the University of Florida's"Croc Docs." So we are an
organization that's beenstudying crocodilians here in
America, as well as throughoutCentral and South America. And
(04:00):
we currently are very heavilyresearching invasive and non
native species here in SouthFlorida.
Phillip Stokes (04:07):
Wonderful. Yeah.
And you know, one thing aboutSouth Florida and you're in like
the Fort Lauderdale area,correct? You know, everything
that I've heard is South Floridais just like the prime habitat.
And like, considering all of thelike global shipping and
everything for invasive reptilesalmost in the world, right.
Paul Evans (04:31):
If we're not the most, I think we are possibly
top three in North America andthe United States. We are for
sure up there. And I thinkrecently, FWC actually just
caught people who were smugglingand 40 I think different types
of species of invasive and nonnative reptiles. So ya know,
(04:54):
it's still soul problem. Stillan active situation the amount
of import Taisha then like youmentioned with the environment
here, that's truly what has ledto such an expansion for so many
species, I mean, we have 63herpetofauna species that are
(05:15):
established here, several ofthem are small, several of them
are ones, we've all grown upseeing just different types of
anoles, different types oflizards. But the majority of
that has to do with the factthat it's a subtropical or as
you move into the keys, a newtropical habitat. So these are
(05:36):
around the world, the habitatsthat are going to have the most
biodiversity. So it's kind ofbuilt for a lot of these large
animals to come here and prettyeasily just start to take root
because they don't have toadjust too quickly to the type
of habitat.
Phillip Stokes (05:57):
Right? We're like, I don't know if this is a
politically correct statement,but it's like, we're like
America's Zoo. You know, likeyou're in South Florida. It's
like, you come here and yousee...Yeah, it's like Jurassic
Park. There you go. JurassicPark. Yeah. Yeah. And you
mentioned how like, you know,pets, that's one of the reasons,
(06:18):
you know, people like those likeexotic pets. That's like, what
brought the Python here, theBurmese python in the first
place, right.
Paul Evans (06:28):
Sometime in the mid mid 90s. Through parts of the
early 2000s. There were almost100,000 confirmed Burmese
pythons imported into thestates.
Phillip Stokes (06:38):
Okay, wait, say that again? How many?
Paul Evans (06:40):
Almost 100,000 And that's confirmed. And these
animals for the most part themand Ball Pythons, one of the
reasons they became and reasonwhy Ball Pythons today still are
a, a, quote unquote, good pet,is because they are more timid.
There are availabilities forbreeding and other stuff like
(07:01):
that at a possibly easier ratein captivity than a lot of other
species. So, you know,obviously, not all 100s of 1000s
of those animals got out and allof them were just to Florida.
But you can kind of start to seewhen you have such a large
importation over the course of adecade, why you're gonna start
(07:21):
to have problems?
Phillip Stokes (07:23):
I had no, I mean, no clue it was that many
that were important? I mean, Iguess I thought like, it was, it
was much a much smaller number.
And yeah, I mean, like, I'mthinking about, if you bring in
that many, of course, one ortwo, or dozens are going to get
out either intentionally oraccidentally. And it's what we
(07:44):
talked about before just theprime climate and ecosystem.
It's, it just makes sense.
Paul Evans (07:54):
Right? Oh, yeah, completely. I mean, where they,
where they live typically, iseither parts of Southeast Asia.
So Thailand, Vietnam, Laos, andthen as you move down some parts
of Indonesia is where they alsowill live, which Indonesia is
just, you know, a giantarchipelago. So the Florida Keys
(08:16):
are just kind of a smallerversion of Indonesia and in the
sense of island ecology. So itis kind of one of those things
where a lot of the lower part ofFlorida lines up so perfectly
with what they're already usedto, you know, they need a lot of
freshwater what is Florida havea lot of freshwater.
Phillip Stokes (08:35):
And that is why a lot of the Burmese pythons are
in the Everglades. Right. It's,it's like the sea of grass.
Right. So that would make sense.
Paul Evans (08:44):
Yes. So roughly. I'm trying to remember the year for
Hurricane Andrew, but that iswhen a breeding facility slash
some type of zoo got destroyed,and a lot of snakes were
released. The confirmed numberfor that kind of goes back and
forth. But that is kind of knownas the big introduction. And
(09:08):
then since then, it's typicallyescapees. It's people who don't
want pets anymore. And nowthere's a lot of regulation and
a lot of that there's a lot ofways to kind of fight FWC as a
good program for Pet Amnesty. Soif people didn't want their pet
anymore, if they were to give itup to FWC, they don't have to
(09:31):
pay the consequences, if youwill. So there's a lot in place
now but you know, that was downin Miami Dade is where that big
release happened. So you'rejust, you know, truthfully after
the giant urban sprawl, that isthe Miami area, it's just, you
know, little agriculturalfields, canal systems, etc, etc,
(09:53):
that all leads into theEverglades, so it was pretty
easy for them to move that way.
Phillip Stokes (10:00):
What is the range currently in Florida,
Paul Evans (10:03):
the range of we're gonna go kind of the confirmed
population is just about, like,the most southern bit is just
around Key Largo or North KeyLargo, kind of Crocodile Lake
area, a little bit in Key Largo,but there have not been
confirmed expansion ordistribution further down, the
(10:27):
most northern range is justaround Loxahatchee on this side
is right around there. And thenas you kind of move across the
state, you're going to kind ofgo over towards Naples. And then
most recently around Cape Coralis where we've started to have
more. Now the jump between thatside on the West Coast could be
(10:51):
human facilitated, it could bethat there's just some
distribution lines between therewe haven't been able to confirm
yet. And we have of course isrelative to the whole giant
teams of organizations that areresearching pythons, not just
us, but yeah, you know, allthrough Big Cypress, through
Everglades, up through severaldifferent water conservation
(11:15):
areas, through neighborhoods,etc, etc. They're pretty hearty
animal, like, you could findthem like, you know, they find
they find them sometimes inwinter, and people's car
engines, so they don'tnecessarily have to only be in
the swamps, there are otherplaces that they would be able
to be alright with,
Phillip Stokes (11:34):
like, like an urban environment, like a, like
a suburban neighborhood kind ofthing.
Paul Evans (11:38):
Yeah, I'm sure they're not gonna love a
skyscraper, but you know,suburban neighborhoods, etc,
etc. You know, people don't liketo think of it as cats and dogs
and like, you know, rats andwhatever that come from human
development as a food source,but they 100% are and can be a
(12:00):
food source for these animals.
Phillip Stokes (12:02):
So let's talk a little bit about just the kind
of natural history that just thefact sheet type of information
for a Burmese Python. So what dothey look like? How big do they
get? We know they're snakes?
What do they eat? We you talkedabout? Like some small mammals
and things like that, but whatelse do they eat? So what are
just some of those kind of broadfacts about them?
Paul Evans (12:25):
Yeah, so we'll start with size, because that's that's
tends to be what people noticemost about them. So outside of
being a hatchling hatchlingsprobably are going to be about
maybe 16 inches to just abouttwo ish feet, when they first
come out, where adults kind ofstart sub adults and adults,
(12:51):
you'll probably get around sixfeet is when we kind of get to
more of that sub adult stage.
And then around 12, or 13 feetis when they've kind of become
adults. Now from there,specifically, the females tend
to put on a lot more mass a lotmore weight. And they are the
animals that often reach the17-18 footers that you'll see in
(13:12):
the news. In captivity, Ibelieve a couple zoos have
gotten them close to 20 feet.
Honestly, I would not besurprised if a 20 footer exists
somewhere out in the Everglades.
So with those, as they getbigger, oftentimes, especially
(13:33):
that clutch size, or that eggsize is going to get bigger. So
they're going to be producingmore eggs, I think the largest
female found was like 215 poundsand almost 100 eggs or something
in her, so massive in terms oflooks, they're going to have
that very typical pronouncedconstrictor head. So it kind of
(13:56):
has, it gets very thin afterwhat are essentially behind the
jaw. And that's going to be sothey are able to detach and open
their mouth very wide afterthey've constrict animals. After
that the rest of the main thingyou're really going to notice is
(14:16):
their dorsal pattern. So theirdorsal pattern, typically is
going to still be in thatbrownish black, almost all of
green stage with a lighter tanback background, if you will.
And it's going to kind of looklike a giraffe or it's going to
look like a puzzle piece. If youcould move all those dorsal
pieces together, they would kindof look like they line up from
(14:39):
that. That's actually one of thereasons why they're so good at
hiding is that type ofpatterning really does well as
an ambush predator when theyjust sit there because you know,
I essentially just described thecolor of shadows and you know,
dry vegetation. So they'll justsit in that in there. They're
very good, I think Think roughlyless than 5% is your actual
(15:01):
chance of like, identifying themand detecting them if you were
just out and about walkingthrough. So that's really low.
And that's why there's severalmethods for actually trying to
increase your odds of findingthem. But in terms of Natural
History, for more physicalstuff, that's probably just
(15:22):
about it that like, most peopleneed to be aware of, as you
know, size, what they look like,where they'll be just about
anywhere down here. As long asthey have an ability to find,
hopefully, small mammals. If notground nesting, or water.
shorebirds all that will dogreat. I think, to date, it's
(15:43):
like 41 different types of birdshave been found inside them. In
terms of mammals, I think everymammal has been found inside the
sides. And we're talking aboutthe peninsula, Florida
throughout the keys, you know,key deers and stuff like that.
(16:04):
That hasn't been determined yet.
They haven't quite made it thatfar south, but probably I think
just Florida Panthers and theblack bear are the only mammals
that have never been confirmedor were highly suspected.
Through Diet Analysis, but Yeah,Bob Cats, various types of
hares. Squirrels, you know, Ithink they pulled a husky out of
(16:28):
a Python at one point. I'm surepeople have seen in the news,
alligators. That's a very wellknown and discovered repeatedly.
I think the largest one I'veseen is a six and a half foot
Gator pulled out. That wasalmost a 17 foot individual. But
(16:49):
yeah, I mean, you that'sdefinitely known resource, but
it does tend to go both ways.
There are some large alligatorswho have been observed eating
pythons, but it is just one ofthose things where, you know, a
sub adult, six, five foot Gator,it's not going to be able to do
(17:10):
too too much to a very largeindividual of Python.
Phillip Stokes (17:16):
Yeah, that is.
That is one of the things it'slike, when we think of Florida,
like alligators are one of thetop predators, at least and
especially with reptiles, butlike, yeah, it's like there's
there's a new a new king in townalmost, you know,
Paul Evans (17:33):
completely. That's why it kind of they took off so
well because you didn't have alot of the natural ecological
factors to kind of keep them incheck for so long. But it is one
of those things where it kind ofwas the perfect time because
(17:54):
South Florida this ecosystemevolved, you know, for a million
or so years to be too largecrocodilians, small predatory. I
say small, but, you know, fiveto six feet, predatory venomous
snakes, and a wide range ofdifferent predatory and
(18:19):
herbivorous birds, and thenHardy swamp mammals. So you
know, the black bear andFlorida, Panther, bobcat, all
these things. And then, youknow, over time, some of those
populations, whether it's due tohumans, whether it's due to
other changes in the habitatslowly started to dwindle, and
(18:40):
several those have bounced back,but several of those still have
dwindled, to the point where,when an apex predator comes in,
which kind of is what theBurmese python is, in their in
their home range, there arethings that eat them, you know,
they there are a lot ofpressures actually, from being
over hunted, they are listed asvulnerable. And so it is kind of
(19:02):
one of those things where, youknow, we don't have King cobras,
we don't have, you know, tigers,all these other large animals
that could have a big impact onlarge Burmese pythons, we have
people in the occasional, youknow, maybe Bobcat there, or
(19:24):
alligator that's going to takethem out. For the most part,
it's really going to be humansand whether it's on purpose
through the Florida Pythoncontractor system, or on
accident, and it's peopledriving on the road and just,
Phillip Stokes (19:39):
so you mentioned that they're thriving because
you know,the conditions are right, there
aren't a lot of those samepressures that they would have
in their native range. And youmentioned that how efficient of
hunters they are. So what isthat doing? What is the shakeup
kind of down in, in SouthFlorida and what are the
(19:59):
implications,
Paul Evans (20:01):
oh, they're never good. They're never good
implications. You know, they'rean ambush predator. And in their
home range, there are seasonalvariations. So whether it's
animals moving through whetherit is a more severe wet and dry
season that occurs, where theywill actually fast where they'll
(20:22):
sit and not eat, they don't havethat here. So that's kind of the
other problem is this is abuffet for them. They're an
ambush predator. So they're kindof just gonna want to curl up
and sit and wait for them tokind of sense that a mammal or
a, you know, like a heron, awoodstork or something like that
(20:45):
is nearby. And then that's whenthey're going to strike. And a
lot of this has led to severeplummets of native mammals. You
know, some of those areendangered species, some of them
especially in Key Largo, areendemic. So endemic means they
only live there. So the KeyLargo would rat is one of those
(21:07):
that already endangered, theydon't have more habitat, they
just have, you know, those partsof the archipelago. And, you
know, they're being eaten allthe time by Burmese pythons,
you're having, you know,somewhere between 80 and 90% of
some of these male populationscrash in areas where Burmese
(21:31):
Pythons are moving through,that's one of the reasons why we
actually will do surveys andlook for where we're seeing
certain types of mammals.
Because specifically some Marshhare species, if you're able to
still find several of them, itlikely means you don't have a
healthy population of BurmesePythons. Yeah. So down in like
Everglades, we rarely seebunnies. But as you move up
(21:52):
towards parts of Loxahatchee,and further north, you're
finding a lot more of thatvariety, that natural
biodiversity so, so that's kindof where you started to have
problems. There's a lot of thatbiodiversity, that's loss,
because Burmese pythons are, youknow, like I said, they kind of
have a buffet, they're able toeat when they want to eat. And
(22:12):
that's part of the reason alsothey've kind of grown so
exponentially, not just inpopulation, but in size. You
know, they're not pulling 19footers in Laos and Thailand all
the time. Sure, it happens, itdoes happen. But not necessarily
to the the freak numbers that weget here. And it's just because,
you know, it's it's a GoldenCorral for them almost.
Phillip Stokes (22:36):
Yeah, it's you said, like, their native range,
they have times of like, feastand famine. And reptiles are for
it's my understanding that theyjust, they just keep growing and
growing and growing, right. Imean, if I'm understanding that
correctly, they
Paul Evans (22:54):
Yeah, from an allometric standpoint, or like a
growth standpoint, theymathematically will, will grow
pretty, pretty close toexponentially. Obviously, it
slows to a certain point, likethe males aren't necessarily
going to get that big, but youknow, the males can still get up
into 14-15, yada, yada, yada,but it just kind of depends
(23:17):
where they're putting theirenergy too. But they definitely,
you know, if left unchecked,they probably could easily get
more into the 20s. Andpotentially, you know, start to,
you know, the, the FloridaBurmese python, if you will,
could end up being the longestsnake ever, if they were some of
that the science for like actualgrowth with reptiles as a whole,
(23:42):
it really still depends, youknow, turtles, crocodiles, a lot
of those, it is kind ofexpected, they would never slow,
it would just will, they'd neverstop, it would just be a very
slow growth over time. So a lotof that is likely and modeled to
be so but obviously, a lot ofit's going to kind of depend on
(24:04):
like, those individuals, thosekind of variables that they
have, but here in Florida,there, they definitely have more
of a chance to really push thosegrowth limits.
Phillip Stokes (24:16):
I mean, that is pretty fascinating. I mean, you
can't like you can't alwayspredict these things. And there
are like all of theseconsequences, of course, I mean,
you know, we talked about someof the larger species. You
talked about hare, I'm sureraccoons are hurting and
different animals like that, butlike, what are some of the other
(24:38):
like, secondary consequencesare, you know, is it changing
landscapes? Is it like alteringthe production of certain plants
because you're not having seed,you know, deposits of different
you know, from mammals. I'm justlike, throwing that out there.
You know, like
Paul Evans (24:56):
That is a fascinating thought on if seed
dispersal was being jeopardizedin some way because you are
right that you know you arelosing probably love your
primary seed dispersal. I don'tknow for sure about that. But
that was a fascinating thing tolook into. But in terms of like
secondary side effects, there'skind of two main ones, one of
(25:19):
them is the economics. So theyare going to, you know, like,
there's millions at this, thatare going towards this. We are
no longer you know, just thatcontainment. If anyone's
familiar with the invasioncurve, there different phases,
we are in long term management.
So although yes, you know, thereis a containment plan and
(25:41):
keeping them in the southernmostpart of Florida for as much as
we can, they're also going to bekind of a struggle, if you will,
to really look at just whereelse they're going to go. A lot
of these financial problems thatpop up is because you know, we
(26:05):
have the contracting system. Soyou have people who are getting
paid by the hour, they'regetting paid, you know, I think
by the foot after six feet, orsomething like that, which is
great, you know, they've removedsomewhere, I think the number is
roughly 9000 something now. Soit's a lot that they've been
able to remove. So that programstarted, I believe 2015 or 2016,
something in there. But that allcosts money, you know, that all
(26:29):
costs energy. And the problemwith this whole equation is
there's no end, there's no we dothis, and it's done. We do this,
and we hope it's better, we dothis, and we hope we learn more.
And then the second kind ofnegative side effect is
unfortunately ecological onethat impacts a lot of our native
snakes. So they brought a SouthEast Asian pentastome, which is
(26:53):
kind of a type of parasite. Andit has been found in several
Native snakes, some gartersnakes, some cottonmouth, water
snakes, etc, it's it's found inthem, you know, it's not great,
and it's going to definitelyhinder the life of those animals
(27:13):
and possibly even kill them. Andthen the the other problem with
that is that some of thosespecies don't just live in
Florida, some of those types ofnative snake, I think the
furthest north, the parasite hasbeen found is around I think
just north of Gainesville. Butyou know, but from there, you're
(27:37):
just opening the can of wormsfor where the rest of those, you
know, rest of those parasitescan go are talking about a
parasite that could potentially,you know, get into every lower
48 state.
Phillip Stokes (27:53):
That's, I mean, you see the big animal, but of
course, you can't see theparasite, you know, with your
eyes. Oh, yeah. And it's, Imean, it's like what happens a
lot with our agricultural cropsand things like that, you know,
like, you get one little, youknow, small insect or something
that's, that's carrying asecondary, like parasite or pest
(28:15):
or something, and it it can justtake off and spread and, and we
everything is justinterconnected, right?
Everything just kind of workstogether. That's, that is right,
the ecosystem. And one, oneshake, you know, one, one big
shake up, I should say here canjust throw everything off,
Paul Evans (28:34):
No, completely. And that's kind of you know, the
right?
other. I know, we're mostlyfocusing on pythons today, but
that's the added variable ofNile monitors, Asian water
monitors, Argentine black andwhite Taegu, black spiny tail
iguana, Guana, green, iguana,Peters rock Agama, like all
(28:56):
these other herpaphona, canetoad are here and are part of a
problem as well. So that's kindof where you're starting to deal
with even more impacts is that,you know, pythons are kind of
the first big impacts. And then,on top of that, you have now you
know, five to six other speciesof invasive reptile that are
(29:21):
having negative impacts that youalso have to monitor on top of,
you know, Burmese Pythons.
Phillip Stokes (29:27):
Yeah, so one thing I do want to ask a little
bit about some of the researchthat's being done, you know,
with with Croc dogs and justotherwise FWC or any other
agencies or centers, but I knowone of the things is there's
monitoring or tracking, Ishould say, right with those
little radio chips, andtelemetry. Thank you. And one
(29:51):
thing I heard years ago is youcould basically be right on top
of the snake and you still don'tknow where it is.
Paul Evans (30:00):
Oh, I can firsthand tell you that was true. Because
when we started tracking AI, weit's called, like a walk in,
because you're trying to walk upon it, you want to like, see
where it is see how close we canactually get to it. A lot of
this is because you're trying tofind breeding aggregations,
especially this time of year,which those who don't know, they
(30:21):
kind of breed in this sex ball,if you will, where there's one
female, typically one or at one,one to a few males. So the whole
point of that is, you know, ifyou track the female, you're
able to go in and remove males.
But ya know, I've been a footaway from, I think, 13 footer,
and no, could not could not seejust sitting there little
(30:47):
shallow water vegetation. But yaknow, with the scout St.
Projects, there are a few. We doours throughout part of various
water conservation and wildlifemanagement areas over here in
South Florida. Crocodile Lake,they have a great scouting
program where they also usedogs, as almost a drug dog to
(31:07):
track them as well, which hashad really good success too, as
it's just another form of, youknow, if you teach a dog to
smell and find it that way, youknow, they're not going to be
tricked by their eyes. They'regoing, you know, we're humans.
So humans, sometimes we trickourselves. We're like, yes,
that's a snake and it's not. Andthen sometimes we're like, no,
(31:28):
it couldn't be and it is sothat's definitely an another
interesting element. And thenUSGS and partnership with I
believe Dr. Remo says, lab. Theyhave done telemetry. I think
they do telemetry with adults,but they also do it with
hatchlings, which has led toseveral interesting discoveries
(31:50):
of some of the animals thatpredate on hatchling, Burmese
pythons. So, you know, severallarge raptors, you're getting
into cotton mouths, bobcats,etc, a lot of a lot of very
interesting things that we arestarting to see native species
kind of combat some of theseinvasive species as well now.
Phillip Stokes (32:14):
I want to I want to get into like, like
management, before we kind ofclose up and a little bit about
prevention as well. But werethere any other research
projects or things that youwanted to highlight? Before we
kind of moved on?
Paul Evans (32:28):
I mean, I think Diet Analysis is a very interesting
aspect, as well, as we here at"Croc Docs", we work in
partnership with a lot of thePython contractors or
organizations, so South WaterManagement and FWC to try to
look at the efficiency of, youknow, removing pythons as a
(32:50):
management plan as a kind ofcareer, if you will, like, how
effective is that in terms ofwhat we know from the future,
and what we know from the pastof detection rates, and versus
the time, the effort, the money,etc, etc, to kind of look at
what we're able to gauge fromthis program, as well as trying
(33:15):
to back into like Diet Analysisand body condition and things
like that, really start to lookat, you know, are we starting to
see less healthy individuals bebrought in? Are we reaching some
level of containment from a, youknow, a viable resource level?
(33:37):
So winter is the carryingcapacity for some of these
Burmese Pythons and certainhabitats, when are they hitting
it? If what is possibly changingfrom a diet standpoint, because
you know, people have opened up16 foot animals and still found,
you know, little, little sixinch rodents. So it doesn't
necessarily stop, just becausethey're getting bigger, just
(34:00):
because they can eat analligator doesn't mean they
always want to, they still haveto sit there and digest it and
it takes time. So there are alot of things that are very
interesting, from a behavioralstandpoint that I'm sure in the
next 10 years, there's going tobe a lot more confirmations. But
right now, there are still youknow, a lot of mysteries,
especially with distribution.
That's why Telemetry is such animportant thing is trying to
(34:24):
figure out where they're movingto. But a secondary way if
people you know, kind of movinginto prevention if people kind
of want to help there is a greatapp called I've got one similar
to iNaturalist but it'sspecifically been made mostly
for invasive species throughoutparts of Florida, and people can
just put in their informationfor what they saw. Where are
(34:46):
they saw it and it all getsconfirmed verified by
biologists. So that's been veryhelpful. There's been a lot of
not first but we'll say likesecond or third kind of
sightings in certain areas, wehad questions about that come
through that resource. Andthat's very helpful because, you
know, we can't be everywhere.
(35:07):
There's probably a solid 100 to200 individuals who work in the
constant management and researchof whatnot, on different levels,
whether it's grad student allthe way up to, you know,
professors and research. But alot of that, you know, we all
live in certain areas, if Pythonstart to pop up, some are
(35:29):
further along, you know, theEast Coast in Florida, like
Daytona or something like that.
A lot of us aren't, aren't upthere, because we're so used to
working down here. So it is veryhelpful in other parts of the
state just to start to see, youknow, if they do continue to
distribute up north, you know,how else can we get that
information if it's not frompeople who live there?
Phillip Stokes (35:51):
Yeah, that's a great thing to mention the the
I've got one app. And, yeah,that's really cool that it's
almost like a citizen science,but also like, a way to report
things as well, so
Paul Evans (36:06):
And I should say, it's not just for pythons, if
you are a gardener, if you're afisherman, you're not, you're
not necessarily going to behelping the research I do on the
daily, but you will be helpingsomeone in the management
research they do daily.
Phillip Stokes (36:18):
For sure. I do want to maybe and or start to
wrap up with the idea ofprevention, you know, this
overall topic of prevention, youknow, what have we learned about
the spread of invasive reptilesand non native species that we
(36:39):
can really take for it to learn?
I don't want to sound like,pessimistic, but it's like, are
we just like, Are humans just socurious? And so, you know, we're
motivated by different things.
So like, there's always going tobe kind of that, that bad apple?
(37:00):
I don't know, you know, what canwe learn about this to help with
prevention in the future?
Paul Evans (37:05):
I mean, I don't think you're too far off by you
know, calling humanity a applein the sense because it is
literally, Jurassic Park, youknow, if anyone has watched all
six films of Jurassic Park andJurassic World, it is humans
falling to their intrusivethoughts or morbid curiosity
(37:27):
continuously. And a lot of thatis kind of where some of this
invasion ecology problemsstarted, where you have, wow, I
would love to have a crocodileas a pet. So people got, you
know, in the 80s, and 90s, theygot a Spectacle Cayman, which,
when you get it, it's, you know,they're tiny, when they're
(37:49):
little, they're very cute, butlike, they're not huge, maybe
probably a foot or somethingwhen they're like, they're
really, really tiny, but stillnot huge. You know, you can keep
in your bathtub and have a greattime. But then these animals,
they start very small, and theygrow and they grow and they get
very, very large, what happensis people don't always
(38:09):
understand, you know, when youthink a six foot long snake,
you're like, okay, but it'sgonna curl up, it's not always
going to be that big, and that'strue, but they still need a
certain amount of habitat space.
So then as that animal movestowards 10-12 feet, you now have
an animal that you know, isgoing to require even more
space, more food is, you know,probably becoming harder and
(38:32):
harder to actually hold all thetime. So as they get bigger, and
you start working with it lessin terms of like, you know,
bringing it out, etc, etc, it'sgonna be less habituated and
become more kind of conditioned,possibly not necessarily to be
violent, but it's not gonna beas used to being handled. So
(38:52):
that can lead to some aggressionthat can lead to it not being as
welcomed to humans. And then youhave an animal that you've now
have labeled as possibly mean,it's big, may be scary to some
people, you're you're living offand then, you know, for a while
people are just like, well, Idon't want to kill it, it's an
(39:12):
animal I've had as a pet, I loveit. And they just let it go. And
unfortunately, that stillexists. Today, you know, this is
not something that just happenedin like the 90s or the 80s or
the 2000s. You know, it happenedfive years ago, it probably
happened somewhere unfortunatelyfor some other species, you
(39:32):
know, today like that, that iswhy there is a lot more
regulation now. So, there areprohibited species. So, most
commonly known, largeconstrictors and several
venomous species are on theselists. There are class three
permits so only certain peoplecan keep some of these animals.
(39:54):
Whether it is I believe theywere grandfathered in When they
had something prior or now theyare a class three permit holder.
And a lot of it comes down tolike what they have, what kind
of inspections through FWC andthe other governing bodies. I
don't believe a lot of theseanimals. You can, like I don't,
if someone shares on a Burmesepython, like you're not, no
(40:19):
one's getting that back as a petthrough this process, but they
will at least not in the stateof Florida. But they will
through FWC is amnesty program,I believe they partner with
Southwest and some of theseanimals do leave the state. So
they will go to educationcenters, to zoos to other
private organizations throughoutthe United States. So in that
sense, there is some good, thereare some other paths, you know,
(40:42):
if you're, if you're listeningto this, and you don't want you
know, your giant reptileanymore, there are ways to get
rid of it in a way that you'renot hurting the animal you've
raised, as well as you're nothurting the animals that live
here in Florida. But a lot of itI think just comes from
education, and furtherprevention of asking these
questions, trying to learn moreabout why it's a problem. And
(41:04):
then maybe from a morepsychological standpoint, asking
ourselves or asking, you know,people why they so badly want
some of these exotic, you know,animals, this wildlife to be a
pet to be something, you know,that it's not a lot of our pet
species have been domesticatedover hundreds of 1000s of years.
(41:25):
It's not something that justhappens in a day, some of these
species, you know, like I said,with ball pythons and Burmese
pythons, they're pretty hearty.
So that's one of the reasons whylike they did make a quote
unquote, good pet in terms oflike, they eat typically pretty
well. They're not naturally too,too aggressive. So there are a
(41:46):
lot of things that doesn't, justbecause something is possibly a
more calm or chill animal, itdoesn't really mean that it's
domesticated.
Phillip Stokes (41:56):
No, and I think that is a good message to put
out there. We can include a linkto like the amnesty program that
you mentioned, like in the shownotes. So if you're looking at,
you know, potentially, you know,figuring out what to do with
with some pets, or if you know,someone, or if you're listening,
you're like, hey, you know, thisis this is a opportunity to then
(42:18):
educate my my cousin, my friend,my neighbor, you know about some
of these things. So all likereally good points that you just
said, Are there any last thingsyou want to close with today,
before we end the episode,
Paul Evans (42:31):
I think just one more thing about that stuff is
also if you if you have it, andyou don't want to get rid of it,
but maybe you want to get betterat being a pet owner. There are
people you can reach out tothere's a lot of very good,
responsible pet owners fordifferent types of herbs, Ivana,
and resources that are outthere. So sometimes maybe it's a
hard situation with your petbecause you know, maybe don't
(42:54):
know everything, you don't haveall the education that maybe you
need to be better at it. Sothere's also you know, there's
also that path, I think also isa good thing as long as it's,
you know, legally owns and allthe other things that exists.
Phillip Stokes (43:08):
Well, Paul, thank you so much for being a
guest on Science by the Slice.
So much fun talking with you andlearning all about pythons and
of course just all the otherreptiles that you study down
there in the Fort Lauderdalearea.
Paul Evans (43:20):
Yeah, thank you so much. This was great.
Ricky Telg (43:25):
Science by the Slice is produced by the UF/IFAS
Center for Public IssuesEducation in Agriculture and
Natural Resources. Thanks forlistening to today's episode.
Subscribe to Science by theSlice on your favorite podcast
app and give us a rating orreview as well. Have a question
or comment? Send us an email topiecenter@ifas.ufl.edu. That's
(43:48):
piecenter, all one word, atifas, I-F-A-S, dot ufl dot edu.
We'd love to hear from you. Ifyou enjoyed today's episode,
consider sharing with a friendor colleague. Until next time,
thanks for listening to Scienceby the Slice.
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