April 27, 2022 • 29 mins
In this episode, Eric sits down with Joe McCormick, director of engineering at SplitSpot. Joe shares his experience of losing his central vision in high school and the transition into college at Harvard. Eric and Joe chat about self-advocacy within the classroom, and scaffolds that worked for Joe as he learned how to navigate the world with his disability. Eric also learns about beep baseball, the adapted national pastime for the blind and visually impaired, and the importance of its community for Joe’s journey to becoming an engineer. Lastly, Joe shares about accessibility tools, college acceptance, and how to motivate students to love computer science.
Read more about Joe's story here.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Being disabled.
It's like trying to find someway to be flexible and find some
work around.
There's always a way to getthere.
It's just going to be maybe alittle bit different or a little
out of the box.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to science connections.
I'm your host.
Eric Cross.
My guest today is Joe McCormick.
When Joe is applying to Ivyleague schools and leading
robotics team, he suddenlystarted losing his vision.
By the end of his senior year,he had completely lost his
central vision in both eyes dueto a rare genetic condition.
(00:32):
Joe ultimately went to Harvardto study engineering while
navigating his new world withvision loss.
Eventually he graduated andfulfilled his aim of becoming an
engineer.
One of the things I was inspiredby in this conversation was
Joe's resilient, optimism.
This theme arose again andagain, as he shared his story
and gave his reflections on howeducators can support students
(00:56):
with visual impairments.
And now please enjoy this greatdiscussion with Joe McCormick.
So you're in the middle ofschool.
And how did that realizationcome about that, that something
was wrong?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Yeah, so I was definitely more student than
athlete and student athlete.
Um, but I, uh, okay.
So my primary thing was, uh,robotics club.
So I was like really big inrobotics.
Uh, we did a program calledBotball and so that was like my
primary, a sport.
The board that we play on isbuilt of like PVC pipe.
And so I went to like, lookthrough a PVC pipe and then I
went to take the cap off of it.
(01:30):
And there was no cap.
I just, my, it was justliterally, I just couldn't see
through like a 12 inch tube.
And then I quickly realizedsomething's wrong here.
And so I had to kind of go, gothrough the motions of trying to
figure out like what was wrong.
And luckily I was diagnosedfairly quickly for, for it being
a super rare disease.
Um, and they figured out withina couple weeks of what it was,
Speaker 2 (01:47):
What's the name of it.
It's
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Called, uh, labors hereditary, optic neuropathy.
People just call it L H O N forshort.
It's like super, super rare.
I think the last stats I saw isthat there's like 60 new cases a
year in the us.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
I figured the advancements in genetic testing
since it was first diagnosedtill now, has there been
treatments for gene therapy?
Speaker 1 (02:08):
So I got lucky that I'm in a trial.
I got in a trial when I firststarted losing my sight.
Um, so I was the third person inthe world to get this particular
drug, to treat it.
And it actually was prettyeffective for me.
Um, but on the unfortunate side,because I was a third person in
the world to get it, I couldn'treally get the dosage I knew you
did for a while.
From the time that I got kind ofwhat my current dosage is, my
(02:29):
site has not gotten any worseand this is typically a
degenerative disease, but ittook them like two months to
legally get me to the rightlimit.
And in that time period, I losta decent amount of site.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
And you're still currently in that trial.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
I still am.
Yeah.
They stopped enrolling patientsmaybe like seven years ago.
Um, so there's, I think 10 of usleft in the trial, but luckily
I'm still in it, uh, which isawesome.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
You were humble as far as like your athletic
skills, like you played sports,you know, in high school and
that's like a big feat and thenyou, you did Botball, which I
I'm pretty familiar with is thatthe building, the robots to be
able to
Speaker 1 (03:00):
The games were, I would say, made up, but revolved
around, um, trying to usuallymove like POM POM balls or small
items through some sort ofobstacle course.
So our team finished on, on ourbest season.
We finished thirdinternationally.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
How early did you get involved in that?
I
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Started my fresh of high school.
Um, so back in 2006, um, andpretty quickly was able to kind
of get to, uh, captain on theteam, I think, in my sophomore
year.
And so they'll pursue that for,for, for all four years in the
process.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
So you make it, you make it through high school,
you're in college now and nowyou're navigating college.
Now, have you lost your visionor is it a slow progression?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
It was interesting.
Um, because obviously the springof senior year is also when you
have to commit to college.
So I found out I lost sight inone eye first and basically with
this disease, it's kind of aticking time bomb that I was
going to lose sight in my othereye.
It was just a matter of, is itdays, weeks, or months?
Uh, I found out about thisdisease, uh, or at the beginning
of my March of, of 2010 and twoweeks later I found out I was
(04:04):
got into MIT.
So that was super exciting.
And right around that time, um,when I started lose my sight,
got in this clinical trial, um,I also found out I got into
Harvard off the wait list, whichwas now an interesting decision,
um, because obviously Harvard isprobably less strong
historically in the engineerside, but really strong computer
science and really strong ateverything else.
(04:24):
And so Harvard, I think gave mea, a much more vast array of
choices, where again, if itturns out that after losing my
sight, I can't do engineeringwell, I could fall back into
like anything that Harvardoffers because it kind of offers
everything and it was an awesomefit for, for everything I wanted
to do at the time.
Uh, the other thing that isinteresting is obviously on the,
uh, accessibility side isHarvard had a really, really
(04:45):
awesome accessible educationoffice and did a really good job
of making sure I'd be able tointegrate with the rest of the
students, get the books Ineeded, get everything I needed,
accessibly and MIT surprisinglydid not.
I mean, they had something, butit was, uh, so one big concept
is I'll say I won't be able toread any printed material once
you lose your site.
And at Harvard they say, okay,cool.
(05:08):
We'll, we'll, we'll look at yourcourse and we'll know that you
need these books.
We'll go get all those books,turn'em into PDFs and send them
over to you
Speaker 2 (05:13):
During those first couple years, what was it like
having to transition with a newkind of learning style using
these accessibility tools?
Speaker 1 (05:21):
How Harvard very much did not want me to start
immediately.
They were very much like, oh,take a gap year, go learn all
the tooling, um, or at leasttake the first semester off and,
and come and start afterwards.
And I was extremely adamant thatI did not wanna do that.
Um, in that I wanted to be ableto kind of start college with
the rest of my friends andfinish college.
That's my friends, the timelinekind of worked out was I started
to lose sight in my second eyein may and obviously school
(05:42):
starts in end of August.
Um, and so it was a very quickturnaround where I had to learn
these tools for me.
It was like, okay, like I can'twork on a piece of paper anymore
cause I can't read my ownhandwriting at all.
So what, what can I do?
And so, uh, I thought of, okay,let me just get a whiteboard.
And so we installed thewhiteboard in my dorm room and
then I worked with a whiteboardand a whiteboard marker.
So I could write at whateverfont that I could see.
(06:03):
And then what I did is after Ifilled up the board, I would
just take a picture on digitalcamera and I would basically
then wipe the board, do all overagain.
And at the end of a lesson, Iwould just connect that to my
printer and print out eight andhalf by 11 sheets of paper with
my work on it that started on afour foot by four foot board and
now ends up on eight and a halfby 11.
I hand that into the professors.
Ultimately I think, especially,uh, being disabled.
(06:25):
It's like trying to find someway to be flexible and find some
work around because I thinkthere's always a way to get
there.
It's just going to be maybe alittle bit different or a little
out of the box.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
The question I wanna ask is like, was there an
emotional component for you inthis as you were going through
trying to find these solutionsor did you just find it as
another thing to tinker with?
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, I think I'm relatively unique in that I am
like optimistic to a fault.
Like I always think thatsomething is going to work out
in my favor and I may, maybesomething's eventually blow up
my face, but, but usually theydon't.
And so I think from my side, itwas like, well, this is, is just
another challenge that I have towork through one night in the
very beginning, when I firstfound out the actual prognosis
being kind of permanent loss ofcentral vision.
(07:05):
And that's one where it's like,oh wow, this, this hits you
hard.
And at that point in time, itwas really thinking about the
future and like I'm never gonnasee my children's face.
I'm never gonna do all thatstuff.
And I now have a son to look athis face and yeah, I can't see
him from across the room, but ifI'm a few feet don't know, I can
still see that smile and see himbe excited about stuff.
So
Speaker 2 (07:22):
What advice if you're thinking about teachers that are
working with students who arevisually impaired, what advice
would you give them or, orteachers with IEPs or
disabilities in general?
Is there anything that you kindof looking back would, would
tell them?
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I think I've interesting factortoo, because I also myself, uh,
was a teacher in that I was ateaching assistant for computer
science courses.
Um, and so obviously then on theother side, I, I need to be
accommodating to my students inthe process.
Um, so I was a teachingassistant for two years, uh, for
the intro CS course at Harvard.
Um, and I think the same thingthat probably teachers are doing
(07:56):
on a daily basis, just in nondisability scenario of being
flexible is, is key.
Right?
As, as you mentioned, like not,everyone's gonna receive
information the same way,whether that's due to any number
of disabilities or just that, Idon't know, they're not feeling
it that day or different peopleare visual learners versus, uh,
auditory learners versus handson learners.
Like I think for everybodythere's some different way that
(08:18):
they probably best process thatinformation and best work.
And I think for teachers, it'strying to find the strength and
find in each person.
And I think it's, it's acollaborative effort, right?
I don't think it's the teacher'sjob be like, Hey, this is
exactly how you should do it.
It's like, oh, let's talk aboutsome different ways that we can
solve this.
And that's much easier to dowhen it's a high school student
than if it was like a secondgrade student.
(08:39):
Um, but as a high schoolstudent, who's particularly, I'd
say if they're, if they'remotivated, they're gonna
collaborate with the teacher tohelp brainstorm different ways
to do it.
But I think really starting tothink outside the box.
And, uh, when I, when I wouldjoin classes, uh, in, in
college, one of the first thingsI'd say to a professor was like,
Hey, I can't see anything you'regonna write on the board.
So anything you ever write, aslong as you say, what you're
(09:01):
writing, I'll be able to fallalong.
But if you don't say it I'llhave no idea what you're talking
about.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Is that something you would say in the beginning, like
when you met them, you'd leadwith that?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I would, cause I would say basically you have,
um, basically the equivalent toan IEP, but I would have like a
letter of accommodations, whichis what I was by the university
kind of permitted to beaccommodated for.
And that included like extratime for testing private room
for testing.
So I could do this whiteboardsetup, um, use of my computer in
the classroom to take notes.
And so I would come to themafter the first day and I would
(09:30):
say like, Hey, like just, youknow, like these are
accommodations that, that Ihave, but I was like, is some
basic tips that that would workwell for me.
And that, and again, the, thewriting what or saying what they
wrote on the board is superimportant in math and science
classes.
I wouldn't need to tell that tolike, uh, the, the literature
class and like that, right.
They were going be talkinganyways in the process.
Um, but again, for mostprofessors, all they needed was
(09:51):
that little prompt and then theywere fine and maybe they needed
a reminder after a little bit.
Um, but P people and the otherthing is like people get into
teaching because they want, uh,the students to, to learn.
They want them to succeed.
So that like having anaccommodation, I don't think is
going to feel for them to belike this huge burden.
It's like, oh yeah.
If I did this little thing, yourlife gets better.
And then they quickly realizelike, yeah, that's not too hard.
(10:12):
Like I can gladly do that in theprocess.
And so for me again, maybe it'sjust me, me being lucky, but I
never got any pushback from anyprofessor ever in, in my four
years to, to any of the things Iwas, uh, kind of asking for in
the process.
And I think some of that isagain being flexible for, for
both directions, but also justkind of presenting the, the why
behind the what, right?
Like it's not saying like, Hey,you need to do this.
It's like, Hey, this will helpme because X, Y, Z.
(10:34):
And I think for motivatinganybody, if they know why they
should be doing something,they'll be much more interested
in doing it than if they're justtold what to do
Speaker 2 (10:40):
And hearing that self-advocacy like when you are
in college, I'm thinking abouthow do I encourage my students
to also advocate for themselvesand, and own what they need.
I'm teaching middle schoolscience students.
And they're, they're at an agewhere they, they know if they
have a, a special learning needor, uh, a health, other health
impairment.
They know these, these differentcontexts that they live in that
(11:01):
impact their learning and thenadvocating for their self and
saying, this is my learning.
How do I communicate that to anadult, which at, at that age
just can be tough because theadult there's this huge power
difference and age difference,but them knowing like, no, it's
about me, I'm going to advocatefor myself and, and speak to
this teacher and let them knowthis is what I need for my
support.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I can't picture myself as a 10 year old or a 12
year old being able to advocatelike I can as a 18, 19, 20 year
old.
Right.
So it's definitely a lot tougherfrom that side.
And I think it will probablyrequire much more work as the
teacher to help pull that out ofthe students more than when it's
, uh, basically having as acollege student, basically an
adult in the process.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
It is.
And, and Demi find that thateven though they're adults and
we're adults, that it is okayto, to speak about the things
that you need.
And everybody comes to it from adifferent background and, and,
and perspective on that.
Especially children, they, theylook at adults in different
ways.
And if you come from a, a, youknow, a family that says
whatever they do is right, thenyou're not gonna be as likely to
(11:57):
speak up for yourself.
And if you come from a familythat encourage you to engage in
intergenerational dialogue andthings like that, they're,
you're gonna be more active in,in participating in as teachers.
It's important that we empowerour students to use voice and to
advocate for themselves.
And right.
It is a process of, of allowingthem the permission and feel
like they, they can do this.
(12:17):
And it is okay to do.
It's not, um, disrespectful.
It's not, they always know best.
It's something that I always, Itry to do with, with my own
students.
And I know many teachers who arelistening, it's one thing that
we want to do, cuz once they'reaway from us, once the, you
know, especially the teacherswho are trying to make sure
they're serving anddifferentiating the various
needs, they may not always havesomeone like that in their, in
(12:39):
the classroom.
They might always be that personor be with that teacher.
Who's doing those things.
And so because you know, ourkids see what 60, 70 different
teachers at, you know,throughout their career as, as
K-12, I mean, so many differenteducator around shifting gears a
little bit.
I read that you're a beast atbeat ball.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah.
So as mentioned on the sportsside, I feel like, uh, I am a
significantly better blindathlete than I ever was a cited
athlete.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
People who are visually impaired, you said,
there's a spectrum.
Like you have your peripheralvision.
Does that give you a little edgebeat ball?
Speaker 1 (13:11):
No.
So the way beat, well, somewhat,but the way that beat works beat
baseball is kind of its fullname.
It's an adaptive version ofbaseball for the vision
impaired, but every player wearsa blindfold.
So it equals the playing field.
Um, when it comes to the actualgame, often being more cited is
a disadvantage because you'renot used to using your ears,
which is a key part of, of beatbaseball.
(13:32):
Uh, the ball is beeping andthat's how, uh, we can follow it
and, and play in the processI've been playing now for, uh,
this would be my 10th season.
Our team is pretty good.
Um, so we finished as high assecond place.
Um, last we finished in thirdplace and I've made the
offensive all star team in theprocess.
So it's a ton of fun, again, away to kind of get back out
there after playing sports.
(13:53):
Again, another fear of losing,sight's like a, what can I do?
The stuff I used to do?
And the answer is like, notexactly, but again, flexibly.
Yes.
Like I can't go and play regularbaseball with my friends, but I
can play this version and have aton of fun doing
Speaker 2 (14:04):
It.
People say when they lose onesense, another one gets
enhanced.
Has that been your story or yourfeeling?
Is that, is that true?
Speaker 1 (14:10):
I'd say it's generally true.
Um, for me again, because Istill have peripheral vision, I
definitely not seen like thecrazy increase in hearing or
something in the process, butdefinitely I can hear a train
off the distance that, uh, thatmost people can't type stuff,
but it is also interesting tosee typically the best defensive
players in the league are folkswith no vision.
(14:31):
And they've never had visionbecause they're used to
listening and using their earsconstantly.
And so picking up a beeping ballis, is much easier for them
where they can hear it and juststick their hand out and pick it
up.
And I think with all this too,and I, I didn't mention enough
in the beginning is like even Bbaseball is, is heavily based on
support from sight people in theprocess, right?
Like as I mentioned, the upfront, like the pitcher and catcher
(14:52):
in the sport are both cited.
It'd be, it'd be far too hard ifthey were also blind in
blindfolded, cuz they'd have noway of hitting the bat.
There are teams all over thecountry, if you are particularly
keen in, in sports, definitelylook up.
If there is a team near youlikely there is most teams are
always looking for volunteers tohelp I'd recommend, uh, the
national beat baseballassociation and bba.org and
looking to see if there is alocal team that you can help out
(15:12):
in the process.
Cited people are a key part ofthat sport.
I think it kind of goes back tothe theme upfront.
And same as when I was back atHarvard, uh, having a lot of
support is like, there's no wayto go through these journeys
alone.
Or if you do, it's, it's justsignificantly harder.
And so whether that's friendstaking me to class for the first
time to find where in thisbuilding the classroom, um, or
my girlfriend at the time now,now wife, uh, helping me by
(15:35):
driving me to places or doingall this stuff, no matter where
you are on this, on thisjourney, I feel like it's, it's
hard to go through it withoutsome form of support.
I think, uh, for, for me evenjust finding this blind baseball
team in the Boston Renegade,when I first lost my site is I
had never met someone who wasvisually impaired before losing
my own site.
Right.
So it's like, I, I had no ideawhat it was even like to be
blind, but finding this teampretty quickly then gives you
(15:55):
friends with that sameexperience and a shared
experience can make it mucheasier, but then also helps you
to figure out these ideas,right?
Like I can give an idea tosomeone else and they can give
me an idea on how to best findthe train or whatever, whatever
it is.
And I think finding people withshared experiences will make, uh
, whatever it's, whether that'sbecause it's also impairment or
other disabilities or yeah.
(16:15):
It's just like anything, findingpeople with common interests and
common backgrounds is, is goingto make, uh, your, your life
probably a little moresuccessful in the process.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Looking back on your education.
Are there any teachers thatinspired you or who stand out to
you as you think back?
Yeah,
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I mean, I think, uh, so the, the drama teacher
mentioned Sams Mr.
Gleason, um, obviously influencecause that pushed me towards the
robotics side, which ultimately,uh, at the end day, I'm now a, a
computer or I guess a softwareengineer, a computer science, uh
, major by trade that I would'venever been probably into that
area at all without the roboticsbackground.
Um, so I think that that clue isa big, big influence and then
(16:50):
jumping onto the college side,um, I started in mechanical
engineering, um, but that turnedout to be not as interesting and
, and also harder once losingsight, like, uh, that, that is a
very, very visual and very handson thing, which I was super
interested in, but not beingable to then do those hands on
things.
Once I lost my site was a muchless interesting journey when I
(17:13):
can't be U was in the AutoCADmachine or can't be doing all
these different things in theprocess.
And so from there, I, I, I tookthe intro to computer science
course because it was arequirement to be a mechanical
engineer and I kind ofimmediately fell in love with
that experience.
And a lot of that was thanks tothe professor, uh, who, who
offered the course, his name'sDavid Malan.
Um, he's pretty well knownamongst the computer science
(17:34):
industry.
Uh, he teaches, uh, CS 50, whichis the intro CS course at
Harvard.
And that definitely got meinterested in computer science,
uh, which now has been my careerfor the past eight years.
And he ended up, uh, offering mea teaching assistant position.
I then taught that course andwithout his influence, wouldn't
have been as interested in thecomputer science aspects, uh,
and made that major switch.
And then a career switch, uh,after that
Speaker 2 (17:56):
You said mechanical engineering was harder being
visually impaired becausethere's so much that maybe
visually and spatially, you haveto see, but you're software
engineer and there's lines codethat you have to be able to go
through.
And so how do you navigate that?
And, and you're a successfuldude, like you you're doing this
(18:16):
well.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah.
So the typical I'd say there aretwo, two main strategies that I
use.
Uh, so one is a technologycalled a screen reader.
And what that software's job is,is, uh, it's likely a named
pretty well.
It reads your screen, right?
So its job is to take everythingthat's visibly displayed on the
screen and read it to you, uh,for you to then interpret.
(18:37):
The other thing I use is ascreen magnifier.
And so if I want to seesomething, I will zoom it in
substantially for it to be usualfor me.
So if I'm using my computer, I'mtypically zoomed in between
eight and X zoom.
So I'm only seeing whatever 12and a half to 10% of the screen
at a time.
And in front of me is a 34 inchmonitor.
So, uh, there's not a lot ofcharacters on that screen at
(18:59):
once if I do wanna look.
And, but obviously that'd bepretty hard to be able to like
physically be scrolling andreading that.
So most of the time, if I'mwriting code or reading code,
it's all listening to it whenI'm to typing every single key
that I press, it tells me.
So if I'm typing out Joe, it'sgonna say J O E and then I hit
the space bar, say space.
And so it sounds both annoyingand, uh, hard, but after you've
(19:21):
been doing that for a few monthsand now for me, 11 or 12 years
later, uh, it's, it's totallynormal to just be like used to
listening all day every day toeverything that is, uh, being
shown in on my computer.
But the other thing is it'scrazy.
The work that apple has done foraccessibility, all of apple
products are fully accessibleand for free.
So you don't need to installextra software.
(19:41):
It's just built in, uh, it'scalled voiceover and, uh,
magnifier on those.
And so I use an iPhone and thatis a, a total life changer.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
So there, there are tools beyond Snapchat,
Instagram,
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Definitely.
And if not those tools just makeSnapchat, Instagram, uh, more
usable as well, especially thebigger companies have put the
time in to make them accessibleand usable to people who are
visually impaired.
And for me, especially even likethe Google suite of products,
which I'm sure a lot of teachersare using, uh, those type of
things, Google has made all ofthose fully accessible
Speaker 2 (20:09):
On that conversation about software.
Have you heard of the apps?
Uh, there's two of'em that Ishare with teachers in the grad
school that I work in.
One of them is called, be myeyes.
And for teachers who arelistening, it's, it's an app
that allows people who arevisually impaired and people who
are cited to be paired so thatthe sided person could tell
using the camera almost likeFaceTime.
They can be called and they're avolunteer and the person needs
(20:30):
them to identify two D you know,brands of something in the
grocery store could be like cansof soup, you know, chicken
noodle versus tomato
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Soup, hip that's one, I'm a huge fan of, I use that
multiple times a week.
Yeah.
Be my eyes is obviously great,but requires you both to talk to
a human and there's a little bitof delay.
Obviously you have to, toconnect to somebody, talk to
them in the process, seeing AIis Microsoft's, uh, it's the
equivalent of kind of OCR,optical character recognition.
Um, but it does even more thanthat in that, as I mentioned,
like, if I am want to make aburrito, right, I can go into
(21:01):
the fridge and find thatburrito, but like, how do I know
how long to cook it?
I can go into seeing AI and, andscan it by its barcode.
And it will look up theinstructions on how I can cook
that burrito and just tell me,oh, it's 90 seconds in the
microwave,
Speaker 2 (21:13):
The part of the app, one of the features that excites
me the most and, and kind ofthe, where can we go with this
technology is the scene featurewhere you take a photo and
identifies what's in the picturewith amazing accuracy.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah.
It's, it's beneficial.
I think the other thing that'sinteresting, it's kind of same
technology, but an extension ofthat is for things like, like,
let's say you're posting onFacebook, can you just post a
picture or on Instagram?
And there's no caption.
It's like for someone whovisually impaired is that's
meaningless, right?
Like, well, what did you post apicture of?
And so built into some of theseplatforms now, and basically all
these platforms just like put acaption, describe, put in what's
(21:48):
called alt text, alternativetext, where it describes it to
someone who's visuallyimperative, like image of a baby
or image of a mountain.
Um, but now that software can dothat for you.
And it's like, well, yeah, maybeI don't know exactly where they
are, but it's like, oh, theyposted a picture of a mountain.
They're probably someone who'straveling
Speaker 2 (22:03):
And for folks listening.
So the apps that we're talkingabout are, uh, be my eyes.
That's the one we talked aboutwhere it pairs folks up.
But then the other one we'retalking about, which is you can
run by yourself, is Microsoftseen AI and
Speaker 1 (22:14):
There's a whole bunch of other apps in this space too.
Right?
We've, we've named two of them.
There's a, there's a whole bunch, uh, there's one called blind
square.
Um, there's one I use, uh,called via opt to nav, uh, which
is a navigation app.
And for someone who cited, itsounds basic, right?
Like, oh, you bust Google apps,but for the vision pair, like
that's, that's not easy to knowwhere you are, especially in a
city where it's, or there couldbe three streets all within that
(22:35):
a hundred feet that tells you toturn for it.
So it's like, which one is it?
And these apps now, the, the,the step beyond these other
tools will give you that moreinformation you can use to, to
figure out where you are.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
I have one question.
Is there any tech that's out,that's either in this embryonic
stage are ready to be launchedthat that excites you?
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah.
I mean, for me, I, I think theobvious one is self-driving
cars.
I thought it's been a long timebefore the government would
allow a vision impaired personto get behind the wheel of a
self-driving car.
Um, but for me, that one wasalways super interesting
Speaker 2 (23:04):
When I get to meet folks like you, I think about
through the lens of my students,many of whom will be the first
generation to grab college andthings like that.
Is there something that youwould encourage someone to focus
on?
Like for instance, my studentscode and scratch, and some of'em
are interested in Python, if youcould give advice to like your
younger self, like seventhgrade, like to develop a skill,
is there like a route orsomething to explore that you
(23:24):
would, you know, if you had likea nephew or somebody who's like,
I wanna do what you do, like,what would you tell them to like
start exploring?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
I mean, I think both are a awesome, like scratch, uh,
was the first thing they teachin the intro CS course at
Harvard.
Right?
Like that's how they weed outthe students at first is like,
if you don't like scratch,you're not gonna like actually
writing the code.
Um, so, uh, I think scratchcreate Python's great.
Computer science is superlucrative.
I, I don't see a world whereit's not super lucrative in the
future still.
Like we're, we are still at ahuge world where there are way
(23:52):
more job opportunities thanthere are people to fill them.
It is something though that Iwouldn't say is for everybody
don't force it because there'san eventual path to money there
because I think, uh, obviouslylike that's not gonna be
happiness at the end of the day.
I think especially as a seventhgrader, it's gonna feel if
you're just like forced to dothis thing.
And it's not interesting to you,like that's probably gonna repel
you and push you away from thatthing forever where it's like,
(24:12):
yeah, maybe seventh grade, isn'tthe right time.
Like maybe you try again inninth grade, you try again, 11th
grade.
Um, and I didn't write a line ofcode before 10th grade of high
school and it was totally fineto, I was super, super
successful.
And the code I was writing in10th grade and high school was
not anywhere near good codes.
I really didn't write much codeuntil sophomore in college.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
What you said is very validating because from my
perspective, it's wanted tocreate opportunities for
students to practice skills orbe exposed to things that could
be useful later.
You know, so kind of like youwant to give them, I guess,
breadth, especially the younger,do you wanna give them like
access and exposure to as muchas possible and go, Hey, these
are all different things.
And so scratch and pythons onare things that I expose my
students to.
(24:52):
And, and I appreciate you sayingthat those are good ones,
because then I feel like I'm atleast choosing the right
technologies to let them tryout.
In addition to all the otherthings that we, we do.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
But I think with all this stuff too, it's like
finding activities that areinteresting to them within those
frameworks.
Like I was writing the Pythoncode that I did last year as a
seventh grader, I'd have nointerest.
It wouldn't make any sense.
Like, it's, it's not interestingto me, but if I'm using Python
to build something that I couldactually use as a seventh
grader, then it's gonna be muchmore interesting.
My first scratch program everwrote was air hockey.
(25:23):
I was 18 years old and it wasfun.
Um, but like the first Pythoncode I wrote, um, as a, as a
senior in college was doing, uh,AI, uh, or like as machine
learning to figure out Netflixratings of movies, super
interesting as a, as a 20 yearold, but as a seventh grader
could not care less about that.
But with all these tools, youcan use them in, in many
different ways.
So trying to find the way thatyou take that tool and it best
(25:45):
connects with the seventh grade.
And I think kids are just muchmore tech friendly now where
like you could use Python tobuild an Instagram clone or
something.
So then it gets more interesting, um, because they can connect
with it.
But for me as a seventh grader,when tech was not as big a
thing, like, I don't know what Iwould've been able to build.
That would've been asinteresting to me.
I think games would've been itand trying to build something
that I could play with.
(26:05):
Um, but for me, I seesatisfaction on a day to day
basis when I see people usingwhat I've built.
And I think even that as a, as akid, I had a similar
satisfaction of like, whenpeople get joy out of what you
are doing or kind of shareagain, that shared community of
like, oh, this is fun.
That will be interesting.
So kids being able to buildgames that their other friends
could use, I feel like isprobably gonna make that feel
rewarding and keep that likecycle of, of satisfy action
(26:28):
going, uh, for, for years tocome,
Speaker 2 (26:30):
No, you nailed it.
They, they start off byanimating their name.
And thankfully Google has awhole, uh, curriculum called CS
first where it's all, uh, it'skind of like canned lessons.
So teachers who aren't computerscience teachers have no
background can take this there'svideos, multiple languages, and
they can animate their name.
They can build a video game,they can tell a story and then
they learn step by step, how touse all of the different tools
(26:54):
and scratch to kind of make whatthey're trying to, to do.
And then they ha and then I havethe students beta test, and this
week they just had, we broughtin some robots and they're,
they're coding these robots thathave these ultrasonic sensors
and all these different thingson them.
Uh, we just started that, butyou're absolutely right.
The, the embedding it in a realcontext, that's engaging and
interesting as opposed to likelearning it in the abstract.
(27:14):
Like, why am I doing this?
Um, is, is huge.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Yeah.
I think the robots is a bigthing.
I think there's something aboutswitching from the technical
world to the real world thatlike, like even today as, as an
adult, like, I get more, I mean,obviously write software every
single day, but when thesoftware starts to do stuff that
pings outside of itself, or likeif the software sends me an
email, it's so much moreinteresting, cause it now is
like switched mediums orsomething.
Um, and I know in high school orin college, I get to do a class
(27:39):
where we, we built a smart lightswitch where you could text it,
turn the lights on.
And it's like the actual coderequired.
There is not that complex, butthe fact that it now gets into
the real like physical world andI could control the light in my
room was just like mind blowingto me and excitement.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
That's awesome here.
I could tell that you'repassionate about it and that
you're one of those people whogot into it because of just a
genuine interest and love forit.
So your story and yourperspective and your outlook on
the life is just incrediblyinspiring and empowering.
I know as I was listening to youand just thinking about how you,
how you persevered, um, throughthings and, and it really just
also this heart of an athletelike overcoming adversity, I
(28:17):
appreciate you sharing yourstory Stories like this help
empower teachers to help theirstudents have better access to
help their students have anexample of someone who was able
to just start knocking downwalls, being someone who kind of
created a pathway for yourself,uh, to be able to succeed.
(28:39):
And, uh, I just wanna thank youfor being here.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Thanks so much for joining me and Joe today.
And now we want to hear moreabout you.
If you have any great lessons orways to keep student engagement
high, please emailus@stemamplify.com.
That's S T E M amplify.com andmake sure to click, subscribe
wherever you listen to podcastuntil next time.
Being disabled.
It's like trying to find someway to be flexible and find some
work around.
There's always a way to getthere.
It's just going to be maybe alittle bit different or a little
out of the box.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to science connections.
I'm your host.
Eric Cross.
My guest today is Joe McCormick.
When Joe is applying to Ivyleague schools and leading
robotics team, he suddenlystarted losing his vision.
By the end of his senior year,he had completely lost his
central vision in both eyes dueto a rare genetic condition.
(00:32):
Joe ultimately went to Harvardto study engineering while
navigating his new world withvision loss.
Eventually he graduated andfulfilled his aim of becoming an
engineer.
One of the things I was inspiredby in this conversation was
Joe's resilient, optimism.
This theme arose again andagain, as he shared his story
and gave his reflections on howeducators can support students
(00:56):
with visual impairments.
And now please enjoy this greatdiscussion with Joe McCormick.
So you're in the middle ofschool.
And how did that realizationcome about that, that something
was wrong?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Yeah, so I was definitely more student than
athlete and student athlete.
Um, but I, uh, okay.
So my primary thing was, uh,robotics club.
So I was like really big inrobotics.
Uh, we did a program calledBotball and so that was like my
primary, a sport.
The board that we play on isbuilt of like PVC pipe.
And so I went to like, lookthrough a PVC pipe and then I
went to take the cap off of it.
(01:30):
And there was no cap.
I just, my, it was justliterally, I just couldn't see
through like a 12 inch tube.
And then I quickly realizedsomething's wrong here.
And so I had to kind of go, gothrough the motions of trying to
figure out like what was wrong.
And luckily I was diagnosedfairly quickly for, for it being
a super rare disease.
Um, and they figured out withina couple weeks of what it was,
Speaker 2 (01:47):
What's the name of it.
It's
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Called, uh, labors hereditary, optic neuropathy.
People just call it L H O N forshort.
It's like super, super rare.
I think the last stats I saw isthat there's like 60 new cases a
year in the us.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
I figured the advancements in genetic testing
since it was first diagnosedtill now, has there been
treatments for gene therapy?
Speaker 1 (02:08):
So I got lucky that I'm in a trial.
I got in a trial when I firststarted losing my sight.
Um, so I was the third person inthe world to get this particular
drug, to treat it.
And it actually was prettyeffective for me.
Um, but on the unfortunate side,because I was a third person in
the world to get it, I couldn'treally get the dosage I knew you
did for a while.
From the time that I got kind ofwhat my current dosage is, my
(02:29):
site has not gotten any worseand this is typically a
degenerative disease, but ittook them like two months to
legally get me to the rightlimit.
And in that time period, I losta decent amount of site.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
And you're still currently in that trial.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
I still am.
Yeah.
They stopped enrolling patientsmaybe like seven years ago.
Um, so there's, I think 10 of usleft in the trial, but luckily
I'm still in it, uh, which isawesome.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
You were humble as far as like your athletic
skills, like you played sports,you know, in high school and
that's like a big feat and thenyou, you did Botball, which I
I'm pretty familiar with is thatthe building, the robots to be
able to
Speaker 1 (03:00):
The games were, I would say, made up, but revolved
around, um, trying to usuallymove like POM POM balls or small
items through some sort ofobstacle course.
So our team finished on, on ourbest season.
We finished thirdinternationally.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
How early did you get involved in that?
I
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Started my fresh of high school.
Um, so back in 2006, um, andpretty quickly was able to kind
of get to, uh, captain on theteam, I think, in my sophomore
year.
And so they'll pursue that for,for, for all four years in the
process.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
So you make it, you make it through high school,
you're in college now and nowyou're navigating college.
Now, have you lost your visionor is it a slow progression?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
It was interesting.
Um, because obviously the springof senior year is also when you
have to commit to college.
So I found out I lost sight inone eye first and basically with
this disease, it's kind of aticking time bomb that I was
going to lose sight in my othereye.
It was just a matter of, is itdays, weeks, or months?
Uh, I found out about thisdisease, uh, or at the beginning
of my March of, of 2010 and twoweeks later I found out I was
(04:04):
got into MIT.
So that was super exciting.
And right around that time, um,when I started lose my sight,
got in this clinical trial, um,I also found out I got into
Harvard off the wait list, whichwas now an interesting decision,
um, because obviously Harvard isprobably less strong
historically in the engineerside, but really strong computer
science and really strong ateverything else.
(04:24):
And so Harvard, I think gave mea, a much more vast array of
choices, where again, if itturns out that after losing my
sight, I can't do engineeringwell, I could fall back into
like anything that Harvardoffers because it kind of offers
everything and it was an awesomefit for, for everything I wanted
to do at the time.
Uh, the other thing that isinteresting is obviously on the,
uh, accessibility side isHarvard had a really, really
(04:45):
awesome accessible educationoffice and did a really good job
of making sure I'd be able tointegrate with the rest of the
students, get the books Ineeded, get everything I needed,
accessibly and MIT surprisinglydid not.
I mean, they had something, butit was, uh, so one big concept
is I'll say I won't be able toread any printed material once
you lose your site.
And at Harvard they say, okay,cool.
(05:08):
We'll, we'll, we'll look at yourcourse and we'll know that you
need these books.
We'll go get all those books,turn'em into PDFs and send them
over to you
Speaker 2 (05:13):
During those first couple years, what was it like
having to transition with a newkind of learning style using
these accessibility tools?
Speaker 1 (05:21):
How Harvard very much did not want me to start
immediately.
They were very much like, oh,take a gap year, go learn all
the tooling, um, or at leasttake the first semester off and,
and come and start afterwards.
And I was extremely adamant thatI did not wanna do that.
Um, in that I wanted to be ableto kind of start college with
the rest of my friends andfinish college.
That's my friends, the timelinekind of worked out was I started
to lose sight in my second eyein may and obviously school
(05:42):
starts in end of August.
Um, and so it was a very quickturnaround where I had to learn
these tools for me.
It was like, okay, like I can'twork on a piece of paper anymore
cause I can't read my ownhandwriting at all.
So what, what can I do?
And so, uh, I thought of, okay,let me just get a whiteboard.
And so we installed thewhiteboard in my dorm room and
then I worked with a whiteboardand a whiteboard marker.
So I could write at whateverfont that I could see.
(06:03):
And then what I did is after Ifilled up the board, I would
just take a picture on digitalcamera and I would basically
then wipe the board, do all overagain.
And at the end of a lesson, Iwould just connect that to my
printer and print out eight andhalf by 11 sheets of paper with
my work on it that started on afour foot by four foot board and
now ends up on eight and a halfby 11.
I hand that into the professors.
Ultimately I think, especially,uh, being disabled.
(06:25):
It's like trying to find someway to be flexible and find some
work around because I thinkthere's always a way to get
there.
It's just going to be maybe alittle bit different or a little
out of the box.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
The question I wanna ask is like, was there an
emotional component for you inthis as you were going through
trying to find these solutionsor did you just find it as
another thing to tinker with?
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, I think I'm relatively unique in that I am
like optimistic to a fault.
Like I always think thatsomething is going to work out
in my favor and I may, maybesomething's eventually blow up
my face, but, but usually theydon't.
And so I think from my side, itwas like, well, this is, is just
another challenge that I have towork through one night in the
very beginning, when I firstfound out the actual prognosis
being kind of permanent loss ofcentral vision.
(07:05):
And that's one where it's like,oh wow, this, this hits you
hard.
And at that point in time, itwas really thinking about the
future and like I'm never gonnasee my children's face.
I'm never gonna do all thatstuff.
And I now have a son to look athis face and yeah, I can't see
him from across the room, but ifI'm a few feet don't know, I can
still see that smile and see himbe excited about stuff.
So
Speaker 2 (07:22):
What advice if you're thinking about teachers that are
working with students who arevisually impaired, what advice
would you give them or, orteachers with IEPs or
disabilities in general?
Is there anything that you kindof looking back would, would
tell them?
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I think I've interesting factortoo, because I also myself, uh,
was a teacher in that I was ateaching assistant for computer
science courses.
Um, and so obviously then on theother side, I, I need to be
accommodating to my students inthe process.
Um, so I was a teachingassistant for two years, uh, for
the intro CS course at Harvard.
Um, and I think the same thingthat probably teachers are doing
(07:56):
on a daily basis, just in nondisability scenario of being
flexible is, is key.
Right?
As, as you mentioned, like not,everyone's gonna receive
information the same way,whether that's due to any number
of disabilities or just that, Idon't know, they're not feeling
it that day or different peopleare visual learners versus, uh,
auditory learners versus handson learners.
Like I think for everybodythere's some different way that
(08:18):
they probably best process thatinformation and best work.
And I think for teachers, it'strying to find the strength and
find in each person.
And I think it's, it's acollaborative effort, right?
I don't think it's the teacher'sjob be like, Hey, this is
exactly how you should do it.
It's like, oh, let's talk aboutsome different ways that we can
solve this.
And that's much easier to dowhen it's a high school student
than if it was like a secondgrade student.
(08:39):
Um, but as a high schoolstudent, who's particularly, I'd
say if they're, if they'remotivated, they're gonna
collaborate with the teacher tohelp brainstorm different ways
to do it.
But I think really starting tothink outside the box.
And, uh, when I, when I wouldjoin classes, uh, in, in
college, one of the first thingsI'd say to a professor was like,
Hey, I can't see anything you'regonna write on the board.
So anything you ever write, aslong as you say, what you're
(09:01):
writing, I'll be able to fallalong.
But if you don't say it I'llhave no idea what you're talking
about.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Is that something you would say in the beginning, like
when you met them, you'd leadwith that?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I would, cause I would say basically you have,
um, basically the equivalent toan IEP, but I would have like a
letter of accommodations, whichis what I was by the university
kind of permitted to beaccommodated for.
And that included like extratime for testing private room
for testing.
So I could do this whiteboardsetup, um, use of my computer in
the classroom to take notes.
And so I would come to themafter the first day and I would
(09:30):
say like, Hey, like just, youknow, like these are
accommodations that, that Ihave, but I was like, is some
basic tips that that would workwell for me.
And that, and again, the, thewriting what or saying what they
wrote on the board is superimportant in math and science
classes.
I wouldn't need to tell that tolike, uh, the, the literature
class and like that, right.
They were going be talkinganyways in the process.
Um, but again, for mostprofessors, all they needed was
(09:51):
that little prompt and then theywere fine and maybe they needed
a reminder after a little bit.
Um, but P people and the otherthing is like people get into
teaching because they want, uh,the students to, to learn.
They want them to succeed.
So that like having anaccommodation, I don't think is
going to feel for them to belike this huge burden.
It's like, oh yeah.
If I did this little thing, yourlife gets better.
And then they quickly realizelike, yeah, that's not too hard.
(10:12):
Like I can gladly do that in theprocess.
And so for me again, maybe it'sjust me, me being lucky, but I
never got any pushback from anyprofessor ever in, in my four
years to, to any of the things Iwas, uh, kind of asking for in
the process.
And I think some of that isagain being flexible for, for
both directions, but also justkind of presenting the, the why
behind the what, right?
Like it's not saying like, Hey,you need to do this.
It's like, Hey, this will helpme because X, Y, Z.
(10:34):
And I think for motivatinganybody, if they know why they
should be doing something,they'll be much more interested
in doing it than if they're justtold what to do
Speaker 2 (10:40):
And hearing that self-advocacy like when you are
in college, I'm thinking abouthow do I encourage my students
to also advocate for themselvesand, and own what they need.
I'm teaching middle schoolscience students.
And they're, they're at an agewhere they, they know if they
have a, a special learning needor, uh, a health, other health
impairment.
They know these, these differentcontexts that they live in that
(11:01):
impact their learning and thenadvocating for their self and
saying, this is my learning.
How do I communicate that to anadult, which at, at that age
just can be tough because theadult there's this huge power
difference and age difference,but them knowing like, no, it's
about me, I'm going to advocatefor myself and, and speak to
this teacher and let them knowthis is what I need for my
support.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I can't picture myself as a 10 year old or a 12
year old being able to advocatelike I can as a 18, 19, 20 year
old.
Right.
So it's definitely a lot tougherfrom that side.
And I think it will probablyrequire much more work as the
teacher to help pull that out ofthe students more than when it's
, uh, basically having as acollege student, basically an
adult in the process.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
It is.
And, and Demi find that thateven though they're adults and
we're adults, that it is okayto, to speak about the things
that you need.
And everybody comes to it from adifferent background and, and,
and perspective on that.
Especially children, they, theylook at adults in different
ways.
And if you come from a, a, youknow, a family that says
whatever they do is right, thenyou're not gonna be as likely to
(11:57):
speak up for yourself.
And if you come from a familythat encourage you to engage in
intergenerational dialogue andthings like that, they're,
you're gonna be more active in,in participating in as teachers.
It's important that we empowerour students to use voice and to
advocate for themselves.
And right.
It is a process of, of allowingthem the permission and feel
like they, they can do this.
(12:17):
And it is okay to do.
It's not, um, disrespectful.
It's not, they always know best.
It's something that I always, Itry to do with, with my own
students.
And I know many teachers who arelistening, it's one thing that
we want to do, cuz once they'reaway from us, once the, you
know, especially the teacherswho are trying to make sure
they're serving anddifferentiating the various
needs, they may not always havesomeone like that in their, in
(12:39):
the classroom.
They might always be that personor be with that teacher.
Who's doing those things.
And so because you know, ourkids see what 60, 70 different
teachers at, you know,throughout their career as, as
K-12, I mean, so many differenteducator around shifting gears a
little bit.
I read that you're a beast atbeat ball.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah.
So as mentioned on the sportsside, I feel like, uh, I am a
significantly better blindathlete than I ever was a cited
athlete.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
People who are visually impaired, you said,
there's a spectrum.
Like you have your peripheralvision.
Does that give you a little edgebeat ball?
Speaker 1 (13:11):
No.
So the way beat, well, somewhat,but the way that beat works beat
baseball is kind of its fullname.
It's an adaptive version ofbaseball for the vision
impaired, but every player wearsa blindfold.
So it equals the playing field.
Um, when it comes to the actualgame, often being more cited is
a disadvantage because you'renot used to using your ears,
which is a key part of, of beatbaseball.
(13:32):
Uh, the ball is beeping andthat's how, uh, we can follow it
and, and play in the processI've been playing now for, uh,
this would be my 10th season.
Our team is pretty good.
Um, so we finished as high assecond place.
Um, last we finished in thirdplace and I've made the
offensive all star team in theprocess.
So it's a ton of fun, again, away to kind of get back out
there after playing sports.
(13:53):
Again, another fear of losing,sight's like a, what can I do?
The stuff I used to do?
And the answer is like, notexactly, but again, flexibly.
Yes.
Like I can't go and play regularbaseball with my friends, but I
can play this version and have aton of fun doing
Speaker 2 (14:04):
It.
People say when they lose onesense, another one gets
enhanced.
Has that been your story or yourfeeling?
Is that, is that true?
Speaker 1 (14:10):
I'd say it's generally true.
Um, for me again, because Istill have peripheral vision, I
definitely not seen like thecrazy increase in hearing or
something in the process, butdefinitely I can hear a train
off the distance that, uh, thatmost people can't type stuff,
but it is also interesting tosee typically the best defensive
players in the league are folkswith no vision.
(14:31):
And they've never had visionbecause they're used to
listening and using their earsconstantly.
And so picking up a beeping ballis, is much easier for them
where they can hear it and juststick their hand out and pick it
up.
And I think with all this too,and I, I didn't mention enough
in the beginning is like even Bbaseball is, is heavily based on
support from sight people in theprocess, right?
Like as I mentioned, the upfront, like the pitcher and catcher
(14:52):
in the sport are both cited.
It'd be, it'd be far too hard ifthey were also blind in
blindfolded, cuz they'd have noway of hitting the bat.
There are teams all over thecountry, if you are particularly
keen in, in sports, definitelylook up.
If there is a team near youlikely there is most teams are
always looking for volunteers tohelp I'd recommend, uh, the
national beat baseballassociation and bba.org and
looking to see if there is alocal team that you can help out
(15:12):
in the process.
Cited people are a key part ofthat sport.
I think it kind of goes back tothe theme upfront.
And same as when I was back atHarvard, uh, having a lot of
support is like, there's no wayto go through these journeys
alone.
Or if you do, it's, it's justsignificantly harder.
And so whether that's friendstaking me to class for the first
time to find where in thisbuilding the classroom, um, or
my girlfriend at the time now,now wife, uh, helping me by
(15:35):
driving me to places or doingall this stuff, no matter where
you are on this, on thisjourney, I feel like it's, it's
hard to go through it withoutsome form of support.
I think, uh, for, for me evenjust finding this blind baseball
team in the Boston Renegade,when I first lost my site is I
had never met someone who wasvisually impaired before losing
my own site.
Right.
So it's like, I, I had no ideawhat it was even like to be
blind, but finding this teampretty quickly then gives you
(15:55):
friends with that sameexperience and a shared
experience can make it mucheasier, but then also helps you
to figure out these ideas,right?
Like I can give an idea tosomeone else and they can give
me an idea on how to best findthe train or whatever, whatever
it is.
And I think finding people withshared experiences will make, uh
, whatever it's, whether that'sbecause it's also impairment or
other disabilities or yeah.
(16:15):
It's just like anything, findingpeople with common interests and
common backgrounds is, is goingto make, uh, your, your life
probably a little moresuccessful in the process.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Looking back on your education.
Are there any teachers thatinspired you or who stand out to
you as you think back?
Yeah,
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I mean, I think, uh, so the, the drama teacher
mentioned Sams Mr.
Gleason, um, obviously influencecause that pushed me towards the
robotics side, which ultimately,uh, at the end day, I'm now a, a
computer or I guess a softwareengineer, a computer science, uh
, major by trade that I would'venever been probably into that
area at all without the roboticsbackground.
Um, so I think that that clue isa big, big influence and then
(16:50):
jumping onto the college side,um, I started in mechanical
engineering, um, but that turnedout to be not as interesting and
, and also harder once losingsight, like, uh, that, that is a
very, very visual and very handson thing, which I was super
interested in, but not beingable to then do those hands on
things.
Once I lost my site was a muchless interesting journey when I
(17:13):
can't be U was in the AutoCADmachine or can't be doing all
these different things in theprocess.
And so from there, I, I, I tookthe intro to computer science
course because it was arequirement to be a mechanical
engineer and I kind ofimmediately fell in love with
that experience.
And a lot of that was thanks tothe professor, uh, who, who
offered the course, his name'sDavid Malan.
Um, he's pretty well knownamongst the computer science
(17:34):
industry.
Uh, he teaches, uh, CS 50, whichis the intro CS course at
Harvard.
And that definitely got meinterested in computer science,
uh, which now has been my careerfor the past eight years.
And he ended up, uh, offering mea teaching assistant position.
I then taught that course andwithout his influence, wouldn't
have been as interested in thecomputer science aspects, uh,
and made that major switch.
And then a career switch, uh,after that
Speaker 2 (17:56):
You said mechanical engineering was harder being
visually impaired becausethere's so much that maybe
visually and spatially, you haveto see, but you're software
engineer and there's lines codethat you have to be able to go
through.
And so how do you navigate that?
And, and you're a successfuldude, like you you're doing this
(18:16):
well.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah.
So the typical I'd say there aretwo, two main strategies that I
use.
Uh, so one is a technologycalled a screen reader.
And what that software's job is,is, uh, it's likely a named
pretty well.
It reads your screen, right?
So its job is to take everythingthat's visibly displayed on the
screen and read it to you, uh,for you to then interpret.
(18:37):
The other thing I use is ascreen magnifier.
And so if I want to seesomething, I will zoom it in
substantially for it to be usualfor me.
So if I'm using my computer, I'mtypically zoomed in between
eight and X zoom.
So I'm only seeing whatever 12and a half to 10% of the screen
at a time.
And in front of me is a 34 inchmonitor.
So, uh, there's not a lot ofcharacters on that screen at
(18:59):
once if I do wanna look.
And, but obviously that'd bepretty hard to be able to like
physically be scrolling andreading that.
So most of the time, if I'mwriting code or reading code,
it's all listening to it whenI'm to typing every single key
that I press, it tells me.
So if I'm typing out Joe, it'sgonna say J O E and then I hit
the space bar, say space.
And so it sounds both annoyingand, uh, hard, but after you've
(19:21):
been doing that for a few monthsand now for me, 11 or 12 years
later, uh, it's, it's totallynormal to just be like used to
listening all day every day toeverything that is, uh, being
shown in on my computer.
But the other thing is it'scrazy.
The work that apple has done foraccessibility, all of apple
products are fully accessibleand for free.
So you don't need to installextra software.
(19:41):
It's just built in, uh, it'scalled voiceover and, uh,
magnifier on those.
And so I use an iPhone and thatis a, a total life changer.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
So there, there are tools beyond Snapchat,
Instagram,
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Definitely.
And if not those tools just makeSnapchat, Instagram, uh, more
usable as well, especially thebigger companies have put the
time in to make them accessibleand usable to people who are
visually impaired.
And for me, especially even likethe Google suite of products,
which I'm sure a lot of teachersare using, uh, those type of
things, Google has made all ofthose fully accessible
Speaker 2 (20:09):
On that conversation about software.
Have you heard of the apps?
Uh, there's two of'em that Ishare with teachers in the grad
school that I work in.
One of them is called, be myeyes.
And for teachers who arelistening, it's, it's an app
that allows people who arevisually impaired and people who
are cited to be paired so thatthe sided person could tell
using the camera almost likeFaceTime.
They can be called and they're avolunteer and the person needs
(20:30):
them to identify two D you know,brands of something in the
grocery store could be like cansof soup, you know, chicken
noodle versus tomato
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Soup, hip that's one, I'm a huge fan of, I use that
multiple times a week.
Yeah.
Be my eyes is obviously great,but requires you both to talk to
a human and there's a little bitof delay.
Obviously you have to, toconnect to somebody, talk to
them in the process, seeing AIis Microsoft's, uh, it's the
equivalent of kind of OCR,optical character recognition.
Um, but it does even more thanthat in that, as I mentioned,
like, if I am want to make aburrito, right, I can go into
(21:01):
the fridge and find thatburrito, but like, how do I know
how long to cook it?
I can go into seeing AI and, andscan it by its barcode.
And it will look up theinstructions on how I can cook
that burrito and just tell me,oh, it's 90 seconds in the
microwave,
Speaker 2 (21:13):
The part of the app, one of the features that excites
me the most and, and kind ofthe, where can we go with this
technology is the scene featurewhere you take a photo and
identifies what's in the picturewith amazing accuracy.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah.
It's, it's beneficial.
I think the other thing that'sinteresting, it's kind of same
technology, but an extension ofthat is for things like, like,
let's say you're posting onFacebook, can you just post a
picture or on Instagram?
And there's no caption.
It's like for someone whovisually impaired is that's
meaningless, right?
Like, well, what did you post apicture of?
And so built into some of theseplatforms now, and basically all
these platforms just like put acaption, describe, put in what's
(21:48):
called alt text, alternativetext, where it describes it to
someone who's visuallyimperative, like image of a baby
or image of a mountain.
Um, but now that software can dothat for you.
And it's like, well, yeah, maybeI don't know exactly where they
are, but it's like, oh, theyposted a picture of a mountain.
They're probably someone who'straveling
Speaker 2 (22:03):
And for folks listening.
So the apps that we're talkingabout are, uh, be my eyes.
That's the one we talked aboutwhere it pairs folks up.
But then the other one we'retalking about, which is you can
run by yourself, is Microsoftseen AI and
Speaker 1 (22:14):
There's a whole bunch of other apps in this space too.
Right?
We've, we've named two of them.
There's a, there's a whole bunch, uh, there's one called blind
square.
Um, there's one I use, uh,called via opt to nav, uh, which
is a navigation app.
And for someone who cited, itsounds basic, right?
Like, oh, you bust Google apps,but for the vision pair, like
that's, that's not easy to knowwhere you are, especially in a
city where it's, or there couldbe three streets all within that
(22:35):
a hundred feet that tells you toturn for it.
So it's like, which one is it?
And these apps now, the, the,the step beyond these other
tools will give you that moreinformation you can use to, to
figure out where you are.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
I have one question.
Is there any tech that's out,that's either in this embryonic
stage are ready to be launchedthat that excites you?
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Yeah.
I mean, for me, I, I think theobvious one is self-driving
cars.
I thought it's been a long timebefore the government would
allow a vision impaired personto get behind the wheel of a
self-driving car.
Um, but for me, that one wasalways super interesting
Speaker 2 (23:04):
When I get to meet folks like you, I think about
through the lens of my students,many of whom will be the first
generation to grab college andthings like that.
Is there something that youwould encourage someone to focus
on?
Like for instance, my studentscode and scratch, and some of'em
are interested in Python, if youcould give advice to like your
younger self, like seventhgrade, like to develop a skill,
is there like a route orsomething to explore that you
(23:24):
would, you know, if you had likea nephew or somebody who's like,
I wanna do what you do, like,what would you tell them to like
start exploring?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
I mean, I think both are a awesome, like scratch, uh,
was the first thing they teachin the intro CS course at
Harvard.
Right?
Like that's how they weed outthe students at first is like,
if you don't like scratch,you're not gonna like actually
writing the code.
Um, so, uh, I think scratchcreate Python's great.
Computer science is superlucrative.
I, I don't see a world whereit's not super lucrative in the
future still.
Like we're, we are still at ahuge world where there are way
(23:52):
more job opportunities thanthere are people to fill them.
It is something though that Iwouldn't say is for everybody
don't force it because there'san eventual path to money there
because I think, uh, obviouslylike that's not gonna be
happiness at the end of the day.
I think especially as a seventhgrader, it's gonna feel if
you're just like forced to dothis thing.
And it's not interesting to you,like that's probably gonna repel
you and push you away from thatthing forever where it's like,
(24:12):
yeah, maybe seventh grade, isn'tthe right time.
Like maybe you try again inninth grade, you try again, 11th
grade.
Um, and I didn't write a line ofcode before 10th grade of high
school and it was totally fineto, I was super, super
successful.
And the code I was writing in10th grade and high school was
not anywhere near good codes.
I really didn't write much codeuntil sophomore in college.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
What you said is very validating because from my
perspective, it's wanted tocreate opportunities for
students to practice skills orbe exposed to things that could
be useful later.
You know, so kind of like youwant to give them, I guess,
breadth, especially the younger,do you wanna give them like
access and exposure to as muchas possible and go, Hey, these
are all different things.
And so scratch and pythons onare things that I expose my
students to.
(24:52):
And, and I appreciate you sayingthat those are good ones,
because then I feel like I'm atleast choosing the right
technologies to let them tryout.
In addition to all the otherthings that we, we do.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
But I think with all this stuff too, it's like
finding activities that areinteresting to them within those
frameworks.
Like I was writing the Pythoncode that I did last year as a
seventh grader, I'd have nointerest.
It wouldn't make any sense.
Like, it's, it's not interestingto me, but if I'm using Python
to build something that I couldactually use as a seventh
grader, then it's gonna be muchmore interesting.
My first scratch program everwrote was air hockey.
(25:23):
I was 18 years old and it wasfun.
Um, but like the first Pythoncode I wrote, um, as a, as a
senior in college was doing, uh,AI, uh, or like as machine
learning to figure out Netflixratings of movies, super
interesting as a, as a 20 yearold, but as a seventh grader
could not care less about that.
But with all these tools, youcan use them in, in many
different ways.
So trying to find the way thatyou take that tool and it best
(25:45):
connects with the seventh grade.
And I think kids are just muchmore tech friendly now where
like you could use Python tobuild an Instagram clone or
something.
So then it gets more interesting, um, because they can connect
with it.
But for me as a seventh grader,when tech was not as big a
thing, like, I don't know what Iwould've been able to build.
That would've been asinteresting to me.
I think games would've been itand trying to build something
that I could play with.
(26:05):
Um, but for me, I seesatisfaction on a day to day
basis when I see people usingwhat I've built.
And I think even that as a, as akid, I had a similar
satisfaction of like, whenpeople get joy out of what you
are doing or kind of shareagain, that shared community of
like, oh, this is fun.
That will be interesting.
So kids being able to buildgames that their other friends
could use, I feel like isprobably gonna make that feel
rewarding and keep that likecycle of, of satisfy action
(26:28):
going, uh, for, for years tocome,
Speaker 2 (26:30):
No, you nailed it.
They, they start off byanimating their name.
And thankfully Google has awhole, uh, curriculum called CS
first where it's all, uh, it'skind of like canned lessons.
So teachers who aren't computerscience teachers have no
background can take this there'svideos, multiple languages, and
they can animate their name.
They can build a video game,they can tell a story and then
they learn step by step, how touse all of the different tools
(26:54):
and scratch to kind of make whatthey're trying to, to do.
And then they ha and then I havethe students beta test, and this
week they just had, we broughtin some robots and they're,
they're coding these robots thathave these ultrasonic sensors
and all these different thingson them.
Uh, we just started that, butyou're absolutely right.
The, the embedding it in a realcontext, that's engaging and
interesting as opposed to likelearning it in the abstract.
(27:14):
Like, why am I doing this?
Um, is, is huge.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Yeah.
I think the robots is a bigthing.
I think there's something aboutswitching from the technical
world to the real world thatlike, like even today as, as an
adult, like, I get more, I mean,obviously write software every
single day, but when thesoftware starts to do stuff that
pings outside of itself, or likeif the software sends me an
email, it's so much moreinteresting, cause it now is
like switched mediums orsomething.
Um, and I know in high school orin college, I get to do a class
(27:39):
where we, we built a smart lightswitch where you could text it,
turn the lights on.
And it's like the actual coderequired.
There is not that complex, butthe fact that it now gets into
the real like physical world andI could control the light in my
room was just like mind blowingto me and excitement.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
That's awesome here.
I could tell that you'repassionate about it and that
you're one of those people whogot into it because of just a
genuine interest and love forit.
So your story and yourperspective and your outlook on
the life is just incrediblyinspiring and empowering.
I know as I was listening to youand just thinking about how you,
how you persevered, um, throughthings and, and it really just
also this heart of an athletelike overcoming adversity, I
(28:17):
appreciate you sharing yourstory Stories like this help
empower teachers to help theirstudents have better access to
help their students have anexample of someone who was able
to just start knocking downwalls, being someone who kind of
created a pathway for yourself,uh, to be able to succeed.
(28:39):
And, uh, I just wanna thank youfor being here.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Thanks so much for joining me and Joe today.
And now we want to hear moreabout you.
If you have any great lessons orways to keep student engagement
high, please emailus@stemamplify.com.
That's S T E M amplify.com andmake sure to click, subscribe
wherever you listen to podcastuntil next time.
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