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February 12, 2025 48 mins

Brooke Page-Thompson and Lea LaFerla explore why fostering a strong company culture is vital for cultivating long-term expertise. Discover how a positive workplace environment drives employee retention, innovation, and success while creating a foundation for sustainable growth in today’s competitive landscape.

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Episode Transcript

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(00:09):
Folks, you are going to lovethis episode. It is a little bit
of a different version for theSCORRCAST today, where I
actually interviewed twodifferent guests. We've got
LeaLaFerla, who is the presidentof SCORR Marketing, and Brooke
Page-Thompson, who is a partnerover at Velocity advisory group.
And today's topic is on whycompany culture is the key to

(00:33):
long term expertise, talkingabout fostering a positive
culture and environment insideyour organization in the post
pandemic world. So I think ifyou're somebody at any level
inside of an organization,whether you are the CEO sitting
on the C suite, or you are adoer, you're an executioner at
the at the management level, orat the individual level,

(00:55):
individual contributor level,you will get a lot out of this
in terms of how you can operateto best build the culture and
the community that you wantinside of your organization.
Enjoy.
Brooke Page-Thompson, partner atVelocity Advisory Group. We

(01:18):
specialize in leadership,development, culture, strategic
alignment and executivecoaching. And part of why we're
so excited to partner with SCORis a lot of our clients have
communication and marketingneeds that just is not a fit for
what we do, and we're reallyexcited to bring on thought
leaders in this space to help uswith our clients and just what

(01:39):
we do on a day to day basis.
Thanks. Brooke,I'm Lea LaFerla. I'm the
president of SCORR Marketing,and SCORR Marketing is a full
service marketing agencydedicated to the Health
Sciences. We're getting ready tocelebrate our 20 year
anniversary, and in that time,we've served clients across the
continuum of drug development,from discovery all the way

(02:00):
through commercialization. AndI'm really excited to have the
opportunity to be on with Brooketoday, because, you know, we've
definitely seen the challengesof recruitment and retention
within our industry, and SCORRas a marketing partner can
really help develop out thestrategy and the communications
around retention, but we can'tdefine the culture of the

(02:23):
companies that we're supporting,so being able to have that
strategic partner in thevelocity group that really can
help organizations build cultureand retention so that our job as
marketers becomes easier toreally be authentic in The in
the messaging that we'recommunicating, both internally
to employees and externally toclients and potential clients in

(02:46):
the industry as a whole.
Awesome. Well, I am very excitedLeah and Brooke, to have both of
you on today to talk abouteverybody's favorite topic,
which is culture. And I thinkthe major question that we're
trying to answer today is reallywhy company culture is so
important and such an importantasset to long term company

(03:09):
success. We know that over thelast handful of years,
especially, culture has becomemore of a hot button topic. You
think about words like the greatresignation, you think about
retention and recruitment as amajor problem, especially as we
look at this health sciencefield, you look at clinical
research as a whole, that greatresignation is something that I
see, I feel like, every singleday, on LinkedIn and in

(03:33):
newsletters on a consistentbasis, and really studies are
showing and revealing a lack ofUnity and understanding around
the good clinical practices andhow that pertains from the top
down, when you're hiring andwhen you're looking for that top
talent. And so we've got ahandful of questions here. Why
retention? What is happeningright now in the clinical

(03:54):
research space that makes staffretention such a pressing issue?
I just read a study that wasreleased a couple of weeks ago
that cited that the life scienceindustry as a whole had a 20%
turnover rate, and when youcompare that to other sectors,
like the financial services orenergy sectors, it's 5% higher.

(04:15):
And so this is something thatwe've seen historically. We've
known that the demand for CRA sclinical research associates
continues to grow, and that wehave this shortage of CRA s
before the pandemic, that thepandemic only exasperated. We
know that one in five researchsites have a turnover rate
higher than 30% and thatscarcity of specialized

(04:38):
experience the increase incompetition and salary
fluctuation make it really moreimportant than ever that
companies retain their keyemployees.
Yeah, I love everything Leahbrought up here, but I also know
been seeing a lot in ourclients. You know, a lot of
these clinical trial companieswere started with two or three

(04:59):
people that are. Still in theleadership positions. They're
still running the company, andthey're not recognizing
sometimes, because of themassive growth, they've seen how
the culture has changed. And forsome of them, they're actually
seeing employees are trying toshift the culture into what it
needs to be as they get bigger,and there's some retention, or

(05:20):
there's some resistance to that,because they want it to be this
little, tiny thing that theystarted, that they're so proud
of, but they can't yet see whatit looks like with this new
group of employees that arecoming in. And one of the things
we'll talk about, I think,later, is around employees if
you're not living your values,if you're not living your

(05:41):
culture, once they come inside,they're not going to stay. It's
just not part of what they do.
They're going to go find anotherorganization that matches what
they need. So retention is a bigdeal because there is this
delineation of culture that'sstarting to take place just
because of the massive growthwe've seen in the last three
years.
Yeah, Brooke, I hate, I hate thefact that I'm at this point in

(06:02):
my career where sometimes I feellike the old lady in the room,
and I talked about like theyounger generation of
workforces. But I mean, I thinkthat there's that component of
it too, right? Like we know thatthe purpose and the culture of
the organization is probablymore important to the next
generation coming into theworkforce than maybe it is to
those of us are a little bitolder. You've seen that with

(06:23):
some of these clients as well.
Yeah,there's actually an article that
came out a couple weeks ago thatsaid that Gen Zers and some
millennials, the the lower partof the millennial group, the the
younger part of the millennialgroup, they actually are
defaulting to not having a jobnow, if they are taking a role
that they don't like or theydon't find value in, they're

(06:44):
just quitting and they'restaying home, they're not moving
out of their parents housesquite as quickly, and it's just
a different mindset becausedon't feel like they have to and
that's a struggle for companiesthat are in high growth mode,
because you're trying to bringthis balance of talent, right?
You're trying to bring inyounger generation to train and
upskill them, but you're alsotrying to bring in expertise,

(07:07):
and there's this gap that'sstarting to happen, because
culturally, if they don't likearen't they just going to go,
you know, one of the things thatI wrote down, Brooke, that you
were mentioning, is the livingyour values, and I think it goes
to that millennial and the Gen Zand the different generations,
but also, really, anybody is youcan't act it anymore. If you're
going to say something, you haveto be that on a day to day

(07:29):
basis. You can't just have it onthe wall and say, Oh, that's
what we are. You know, you haveto believe it. It's a day to day
thing and something that youhave to really live on a
consistent basis. So I thinkthis great starting point for
this conversation. Yeah,I completely, wholeheartedly
agree. Alec and I was justactually having a conversation
with a client who will gounnamed about the fact that you

(07:49):
can't just create your missionand vision and values and slap
them up in the break roomanymore, right? One of the
reasons that I love working atSCORR is because we talk about
our values. Our values are partof our day to day conversation
and drive the decisions thatwe're making, and I can name all
of them, and it's not becausethey're in a break room
somewhere, it's because theyreally are part of our culture.

(08:12):
Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Andand a lot of a lot of clients,
use values, behaviors,competencies as a hook for
candidates that are coming in,right? That's part of the
interview cycle. They they getthis wonderful experience.
They've got this greatcommunication plan around how
you're going to be and live whenyou come join us at this great

(08:34):
company you're going to comework for. And if it's not
representative within the firstday that they're on the job, if
there's a disconnect at all,they'll immediately start to
question whether or not they'vemade the right decision. And
more and more people are morelikely to choose opt out, to
just walk away, than to try andstick and make it work, because
the message they were given inthe recruiting cycle doesn't

(08:56):
match the message they're beinggiven once they're internal. And
I think you kind of mentioned itthere, and I think it's the
trends that are happening, youknow, and you mentioned the
generations. But I think one ofthe things that we're going to
hone in on as we move throughthese questions is even since
the COVID 19 pandemic began,there have been trends that have
happened, stopped, restarted,new trends, like, it's three

(09:20):
years, and we're changing every357, months. And so it is
difficult, if you aren'tconstantly thinking about this,
to keep up with everythingthat's happening. Let's jump to
looking at Fall, fallingretention rates, and kind of
trying to understand theconnection to a renewed focus on
company culture and theworkplace environment. And so

(09:42):
how is that, you know, the lackof talent, but also the
retention rate, how is this alltied and connected together with
culture and with the workplaceenvironment, especially with the
remote workplace environment,versus maybe the in office
environment as well?
Yeah, it's a. Great question. Ithink what we saw, right, wrong

(10:03):
or indifferent, COVID gave us anopportunity, and companies were
given the chance to expand howthey hire, where they hire, what
they look for in a talent pool.
And now employees expect to havea choice. They expect that
you're going to give me theflexibility to work from

(10:23):
anywhere, because that's justwhat we did. And now, if I'm
not, we saw that early in 2022part of the retention issue was
there was mandates coming backfrom the C suite that you have
to be in the office four days aweek. I have a couple clients
who did that, or velocities, hadsome clients that did that, and
the the massive implication ithad from a communication

(10:45):
standpoint, was massive it.
People were threatening to leaveimmediately because there was no
change management around it.
There was no prep time to say,we're going to give you three
months to figure this out. Whatdo I do with my kids? How am I
supposed to get into the office?
Now, I sold my car, right?
People got rid of, like, naturalthings that we had because they

(11:07):
weren't going into an officeanymore. And if they didn't feel
like they fit with that, they'dgo find somewhere else to work.
And so, you know what we'reseeing a lot of, and I'm curious
if SCORR is as well, isespecially on the HR the CHRO
side, the people and cultureside of things. The last three
years, they weren't able tospend any time really thinking

(11:29):
about, what is our culturereally look like now because of
all the policy change that cameout with, do you have to require
vaccinations? Do you need a maskmandate? Do you have to force
people that don't have avaccination they can't come in
the office? Well, then do theystill have a job? And HR was
constantly fighting with thesedifferent scenarios that they

(11:50):
didn't know what to do with andwhat happens you let the soft
skill side of things kind offall to the wayside, and now
you've got all these managersand leaders that are like, I
don't know what to do with mypeople. I have no direction. I
don't know what our culture is,and I don't know how to align to
this. And so that's where we'veseen the pull really come
recently, is there's thisrecognition at the C suite that,

(12:13):
Yes, times are getting tougherright now, but our culture is
really suffering. And then thequestion gets asked, What do you
do if you're a hybrid workingenvironment, and how do you
build culture when you're nottogether? So what is it? How do
you even do it? So that'ssomething we're trying to work
through with some of our clientsright now, too,
and Brooke, we're, we're like,seeing the exact same thing,

(12:36):
right? You can, I understandboth sides of this scenario in
the ability to attract greattalent by offering this hybrid
remote approach. But I alsounderstand, as the leader within
an organization that is thatway, like, how do you build the
culture when you maybe hiredsomebody remotely that you've
never met in person in my 25years and as a leader and a

(12:59):
manager, COVID was the firsttime that I ever would think of
hiring somebody without sittingacross the table from them and
getting that in person. And so,you know, we work with some of
our clients around programs toreally focus on that, and
there's a way to use thebranding and the external
messaging to develop out thoseprograms that you know you're

(13:22):
communicating on a monthly basiswith, like your all hands
meeting, where the the CEO andthe C suite is talking about and
demonstrating, you know, how thebrand is applied internally in
the culture. And there's lots offun things that you can do with,
you know, swag and giveaways,and just really, you know, if
your culture is more of thatsort of fun, energetic place to

(13:45):
work, we're able to put togethersome programs. But again, I
mean, it is, it is hard to tobuild that culture when so much
of it, historically has beenthat water cooler talk or that,
you know, opportunity to be inperson together. And
I think the cool thing, youknow, not that you're the old
lady in the room, because Iprobably could say the same
thing. But, you know, I thinkthe cool thing is, is that we

(14:08):
really are at a pivotal momentwhere some of the old
traditional ways of looking atbranding, marketing talent are
shifting because we now havemore capability to do it
differently, and the more youstart to see the C suite hone in
on it has to be this way. Wehave to do it the way we did it

(14:29):
before you're just you're seeingall of a sudden, people are
like, but why? Right? So they'reasking a lot of really good
questions, and it's forcing usto think outside the box. And so
I'm really excited to see what2023 looks like, because I think
some really cool, innovativestuff is on its way. We're
seeing it with one client. We'rerunning their culture advisory
board, and they're doing amassive onboarding of

(14:50):
properties. So their culture isliterally being defined as they
onboard all of these people, andthe advisory board is looking
for what are the new. Innovativeways to get people aligned when
we don't sit across the tablefrom each other, we may never
see each other again and andthere's, you know, pockets of
uniqueness in each of theproperties, but yet there's

(15:12):
collective energy around themessaging that we use and the
brand that they all align to,and the stuff that's come out of
the cab has been super cool. SoI think this next year, we're
going to see that from a lot ofour clients. It's
really interesting, because oneof the sayings that I always say
is, like the death of goodmarketing is that's how we've
always done it. And if you applythat here, it kind of lends

(15:35):
itself to the same conversation.
I think it also is a greatsegue. You know, what are their
hallmarks of a compelling andeffective and attractive company
culture. And it goes, you know,the first thing that I think of
also goes back to thatconversation about millennials
in the next generation. I thinkif you think of what made a

(15:55):
company attractive in 2000 youknow, I think you could see a
LinkedIn post every other dayabout the ping pong tables and
the free soda and the foosballtables. But then, as Brooke, you
were talking about the remoteand the hybrid. You know, for
me, when I think of thisquestion, what are the hallmarks
of a compelling and attractivecompany culture? It there's one

(16:15):
word for me, and it's trustRight, right then and there that
means so much to me as anemployee who's in that
generation, who has some of thatin office and hybrid workspace.
But I'm interested, you know,kind of a two part question for
both of you here is, what arethose hallmarks? And then, are
there any that are specific orstand out within the clinical

(16:36):
research or within the healthscience industry as a whole?
You know, it's marketing's jobto really highlight the
uniqueness and the hallmarkswithin that company culture. I
think it really becomesinauthentic, if it's like
marketing trying to drive whatthat is, because then you've got
this misalignment to your pointabout, you know, you know, we

(16:58):
may, in the recruiting processsay that we have trust and that
there's, you know, autonomy inthe work that you do, but then
when you come and start, andit's like your manager expects
that you're at your desk fromeight to five every day, and
that, I think that's where thethat's where we get into these
challenges. So I do like whatAlex said about trust, and for
me, you know, I read a book anumber of years ago, pre

(17:22):
pandemic, that was all aboutmotivation. And how do you
Daniel Pink's theory ofmotivation, and how did you
really get the best out of youremployees? And it starts with
that autonomy, right? Theability to do the work in a way
that is unique and works foryou, and that ability to
continue to grow and develop,and then the purpose piece of it

(17:43):
really pulling it all together.
So interested in what you haveto think, to say there, what
we'reseeing, and I'll, I'll get to
the clinical trials healthcarespace here in just a second. But
part of what we've really seenhighlighted the last few years
around culture is to Alex point,trust is a big one. Um, autonomy

(18:04):
people have really appreciatedthe last few years of not not
being expected to be on at thesame time all the time, because
life just kind of happens, andknowing that there's some
flexibility here is helpful. Thecounter to that is, we did that
for about a year and a half, andnow, now that you're working

(18:26):
from home, it's like, well, no,your office hours, right? And
everything looks like we weregoing back into an office space.
And that's been really hard forsome people to transition to
because their life changed andjobs didn't change with it. And
I think that's companies thathave been on the forefront of,
how do we evolve the way we lookat work and the requirements of

(18:48):
people doing a specific role ortask? Does it matter if they're
on from eight to five every day?
It does it make sense if we knowyou're you have little kids at
home that we give youflexibility to do drop off and
pick up, and then you pick upwhere you need to at night. So I
think we've seen a little bit ofboth on this the clinical trial

(19:10):
space. They seem to work all thetime. They're gone 24/7, and so
I actually we run a programcalled Emerging Leaders, which
is a nine month immersiveleadership development program
for about that mid level,director level, and what we've
seen, we do it for a lot of ourlife sciences companies and
clinical trial companies, andthey, what we're hearing from a

(19:33):
lot of them is they don't mindthe work, because they love what
they do, and they're being Giventhe chance to make a difference
for not just themselves, but forthe world. I mean, imagine being
part of a trial with a drug thatgoes to market, and you get to
see it on a commercial. Yeah,how cool to say I was part of

(19:54):
the team that did that, and sothere's this connectivity to the
work that they do. There's truepassion around it. I. But what
we're finding is there's alsothe teams that don't have one of
the topics we cover is aroundpsychological safety, and this
was based on Amy edmondson'swork with Google. They actually
did a study called ProjectAristotle, and the New York

(20:15):
Times did a huge write up on it,but they found that it wasn't
that the most effective teamsdidn't have the best IQ scores.
They had the most psychologicalsafety, and that's what we're
finding, is in this remoteworld, that is even more
important than anything, becauseif I don't feel safe enough to
talk to you about how I feel orbe authentic in who I am, if you

(20:39):
if your values don't allow me todo that, then I'm just going to
turn my camera off. I'm notgoing to engage on Zoom or teams
or whatever platform you use.
I'm going to multitask, and I'mgoing to just do the bare
minimum. This concept of quietlyquitting really comes from a lot
of that not feeling like I havea place and a place and a voice

(21:00):
to be heard within that place,and that's why you start to see
people just trickle out or dothe bare minimum and just stay
in a job, and then they theyreally frustrate their leaders,
because what am I supposed to dowith them? I can't engage them
enough. And that that's we'reseeing that in a couple of
groups, where the leaders justaren't very strong, and they
actually were promoted into arole that maybe they shouldn't

(21:21):
be in. Maybe they're more gearedtowards individual contributor
than they are to managing andleading teams. And that's on the
business to start to figure outis, what do we really need from
our leadership teams?
I think that's a good point. Iwondered, if you know, talking
about that collaboration rightin zoom, and the ability to sort

(21:43):
of turn off in collaborativeenvironments if you don't feel
like you're really engaged, if,if there's, you know,
opportunities, one of the thingsthat we've been working through
is like, how Do you create thosesort of collaboration spaces
that are maybe more unique thanzoom we're looking at, like

(22:05):
virtual reality and augmentedreality, is opportunities to
have some of that team,collaboration that is maybe
fresh and new. To your pointabout innovation so that you get
that engagement back. Is thatsomething that that you're
seeing too?
Um, we don't see it as much inthe leadership development side.

(22:25):
What we're seeing is this desireto bring people back together in
real time, and the struggle nowis because everyone's in a
financial crunch. They theydon't know how they're going to
do it, but especially atvelocity. We're hearing this
from a lot of our team. We'reall virtual, and there's this
need. They're like, I need tosee the team. I need to feel

(22:48):
connected. And I think that, youknow, some of these new
platforms that are out therethat help drive some of that
connectivity are helpful forpeople who are really
comfortable being home and alittle more introverted, because
I can, I can control theenvironment in front of me,
whereas a lot of them that needthe social interaction, they're,

(23:09):
they're begging for companies tostart bringing people back
together either one time a year.
Do town halls together, and sowe're, I think we're going to
see a little bit more of thatthis year. Just don't know how
it's going to turn out, becauseof how much it costs.
Jumping back, Leah, youmentioned this earlier. You
know, we talk about businessstrategy and the culture of the
business, and then marketingplays a role, right? I think

(23:31):
that's something that you and Isay all the time in all of our
meetings. Marketing's functionis, is to support the business,
and marketing's function isalso, you know, to support the
culture. Again, it's not theculture, but you can really
display it. And I actually thinkabout one of our clients who
said, you know, he wanted to usemarketing as a way to to show
that people should want to workwith and work for their company,

(23:55):
because the brand was was sorelevant, the brand was fun, it
was smart, all those things. So,you know, this is for both of
you, but I think, Leah, maybe westart with you. Is, is what role
or what part does, you know,marketing, does branding? Does
messaging play, maybe not somuch in crafting the company
culture, but helping it be showninternally and externally, you

(24:17):
know, on a consistent basis?
Yeah, I think, I think it canplay a really big role, I think
especially if that brand andthat messaging is authentic and
really speaks the culture of theorganization. And I think
Brooke, you and I have had thisconversation in the past too,
about like, seeing consistency.

(24:39):
We talk about marketingexternally, and that we know it
takes a minimum of seven timesbefore somebody's going to
recognize your brand, and asmany as 50 times before you
might enact a buying decision.
You can take that same rightformula and put it internal,
that that that messaging reallyneeds to be consistent to
employees so that they on.

(25:00):
Understand, really, we're notjust, you can't say it once a
year and expect every thateverybody's going to get it,
that it really needs to becommunicated consistently
internally as well.
And I think when you talk about,you know, the messaging and how
it shows up, it's, it's how it'shaving someone be able to craft

(25:23):
a story like I think what SCORRis able to do for a lot of
clients or organizations iswhat's our voice? How are we
showing up in the marketplace?
What's the personas we'relooking to target and hit in the
messaging that we have, andbeing able to layer that
internally as well. We see thatin a lot of culture programs
that either we're running orbeing run internally, because

(25:46):
they've just got a great cultureteam, is the more they're clear
on who they're communicating toand what the message needs to
be, the more consistent theystart to find The vernacular
becomes similar across theorganization people are
collectively moving in adirection because they believe
and they buy into the messaging,because the voice is resonating

(26:08):
with them. It's it's true, it'sauthentic. It's you know, you
you've seen CEOs in the pastthat talk a really good game
during a town hall, but they'reknown to just be complete, you
know what's outside of a townhall, and that messaging is not
good for employees, becausethey're looking at that saying
it's two different people. Sohow do I relate to you when

(26:32):
you're in the town hall? Butthen know that if I see you in
the hallway, there's a verydifferent person that's going to
come at me, and it's it's whatwe find is values mission
statements, mission vision,values all of those things that
are done at the top and they'reset at the top, if they're not
lived by the senior leadershipteam, it don't work. Yeah,

(26:56):
right. It did. You can justthrow them out the window and
just pretend like you don't haveone, because people know
authenticity right away, and ifthey don't sense it from their
leadership team, they're notgoing to embrace whatever the
mission, vision and values arewell.
And I think Burke, I'm thinkingabout the approach that we take
to building a brand externally,and that approach really starts

(27:17):
with us doing an assessment,talking to the key stakeholders
within the business,understanding from that C suite
what the goals of the businessare, what they see their brand
and their value and theirdifferentiators to the
marketplace. But we don't justtake that then we go talk to the
customers and understand fromthe voice of the customer, are

(27:37):
these the things that you know?
You know, what's, how do youchoose a partner? What are you
looking for? What are thedifferentiators of this
particular organization? So thatwe can make sure and fact check
that we're not getting into thatlike, speak about, you know,
companies speak in silo, andAlec and I joke, and we talk
about this all the time, becauseI work, I've worked with clients

(27:57):
that are like, we provide whiteglove service, right? We are
there. We're accessible. You getthe A team, and that's what
you're hearing from theleadership team, and that's what
they believe. But then you goand talk to the customer, and
the customer's like, I haven'tnobody's emailed me back in
like, a week, right? Like, Ican't get a hold of anybody. And
so it's like, well, I can't havea brand externally that talks

(28:17):
about that level of service ifit's not true in the
marketplace. And I think whatI'm hearing you say, and
completely agree, is you have totake that exact same approach
internally. You can't just take,you know, the word of the
leaders within the company. Youprobably also need to gut check
with all of the rank and fileemployees to make sure that that
there's a connect there.

(28:38):
Yeah, and things like, you know,engagement surveys. We we love
it when our clients use employeeengagement surveys, because the
data is true, and I knowsometimes it's a little
subjective, right? If youdepending on the time of year
that you do it, don't do itaround bonus time. And if the
bonuses weren't very good,right? Don't do it then, but,

(29:01):
but if you can catch theemployee bases true perspective
of the business, and you have aleadership team that's willing
to be introspective and look atit from a holistic standpoint,
you start to see this like, ohyeah, we probably should work on
that, because I've gottenfeedback on that before. I just
didn't realize it was thatwidespread. Like, not everybody

(29:23):
you know could see this behavioror this issue, and they're,
they're really important too,because we're finding,
especially in this industry,there's some disconnect at the
leadership level. They've, theyhave a CEO and maybe a couple of
others who started the business,and they're still running it,
but now they've hired all thisreally good talent to come in

(29:44):
and fill in the other roles, andthey're all scratching their
heads thinking, What have Isigned up for? And like, there's
no cohesiveness here. We don'twe don't talk about the hard
stuff. We just all nod our headsand say yes. And so having.
Tools like engagement surveys,having consultants who can come
in and say, let's talk aboutyour brand, let's talk about

(30:06):
your voice, let's talk aboutwhat's happening in the room.
Because when we run leadershipprograms for their middle level
leaders, the first thing we hearafter Module two is, have our C
suite gone through this yet theywould so benefit from some of
these tools and and it's, it'salways this, like, yeah, it's

(30:27):
really good when you, when youget that feedback from the
business, because it's just afeeder to say, Can we do it
differently? Can your messaginglook different? Can you be more
holistic in the communities thatyou're reaching out to, both
internal and external, becausethe message is getting lost in
translation once they're here.
Yeah, so many, so many follow upquestions and call outs to to

(30:52):
that entire section. I thinkthat's its own topic and Blog in
its own right. I think, youknow, the two, the two call outs
that I have, I think, is the thestory is so important. You know,
we talk about it from a salesand a marketing standpoint, and
I think you guys were going evena little bit deeper. But one of
my favorite activities is, ifthere's a product team, a
customer team and a marketingteam just going and asking them

(31:15):
to talk for 30 seconds about theorganization, and seeing how
different those answerstypically are because they're
looking at it from their pointof view, and even that little
bit of inconsistency can can goa long way. But I think the
other one that is so relevant in2023 and it's something that
Leah and I had to talk aboutwhen I first started working at

(31:37):
SCORR, is personal brand, youknow? I think that is, I think
that is so important forculture, and from a marketing,
branding messaging standpoint,is allowing your employees in
today's environment to have apersonal brand, and how that is
actually an asset. Whereas, Ithink five years ago, even let
alone 1015, years ago, it wasconcerning that person was going

(32:01):
to leave. We can't have theirface on this. There was, there
was a lot of fear to it. I thinkpersonal branding is really
relevant in today's cultureespecially.
Yeah, I love the personal brand.
I always come back to, I have,I've worked for two different
people in my lifetime that werevery concerned with, let me, let

(32:21):
me rephrase this, they were notexperts in the field they were
in, and they hired really smartpeople, but you weren't allowed
to have a voice. And so Iremember being told on multiple
occasions, you are a directreflection of me, therefore you
must say what I would say, evenif it was different than what my
personal expertise would stillwould tell me to do, and just

(32:45):
sitting on that for a while andthinking through this is younger
in my consulting career, andthinking, How many times have we
done that to a lot of people andsquelched this creativity that's
there, or that psychologicalsafety to have A voice it's
different, or an opinion thatmight be different. It's not to
say it's contradictory, it'sjust different, and that needs

(33:06):
to be okay. And so this conceptof a brand, we actually take
clients through a leadershipbrand exercise, where they're
not only looking at theirpersonal brand and how they show
up in the world, but now they'relooking at, how am I showing up
for my team? Is the messagethat's in my head about myself,
the same thing that my teamwould say about me. And we've

(33:28):
had a couple of people actuallycome back after that exercise
and say, I'm in the wrong job.
I'm in the wrong career, becausewhat I'm passionate about has
nothing to do with what I doevery day, and this is why I
don't like what I do. I don'tlike my job. I don't like the
people I'm around because I'mbeing asked to do something I
have no passion around. And it'sgiving them permission to think

(33:50):
outside of that, to say yourbrand is your it's represents
who you are, and you're going tohave one regardless if you know
you do or not, you already haveone, a personal one and a
leadership one. So I love thatAlec of the concept of personal
brands are really important forpeople well,
and Brooke, it made me thinkwhen you talk about, you know,

(34:11):
your expertise and wanting toreally leverage the expertise of
the team right for a lot of theclients that we work with, that
is the differentiator for theirorganization. They've got
therapeutic expertise, they haveproject management expertise,
they have manufacturingexpertise. And so, you know,
really being able to leveragethe expertise of the collective

(34:33):
and not just of one or twofigureheads, and then it also
makes me think about innovationand the fact that you need those
differing opinions to really beable to drive innovation. And I
think those expertise andinnovation are such important
parts of the life sciences anddrug development that I think

(34:53):
companies that are trying tosquash that are doing themselves
a huge disservice and sointeresting.
And when you talk aboutinnovation, having a safe place
to fail, Yeah, huge, right?
That's that's a big one. Andsome of our clients in this
industry are like, we were okaywith mistakes, so long as it
doesn't impact a client, or, youknow, any of the research that

(35:16):
we're doing, it's we encouragepeople to try, at least try
something new and learn from it.
And then the ones who are veryrigid and buy the book and say
it has to follow this way everytime, their teams have a lot of
turnover, because they can't dothe same thing every day and get
the same enjoyment out of it, ithas to look different.

(35:37):
Yeah, I love that. I'm gonna,I'll put a pin in it, because I
can talk about it for for threehours, but I just finished
reading a book called jumpstarting the American economy,
and they were talking about howyou have to have a an
environment for innovation. Youcan't say you want innovation,
because if you say you wantinnovation, you're actually
creating an environment whichleads to the I burn my hand on

(36:00):
the stove, and now I'm nevergoing to put my hand back on the
stove again. An environment ofinnovation, there's no stove.
You're you're failing, you'regetting up. You're failing,
you're getting up. But if youjust say you want people to
innovate, but you don't actuallyhave the the system for it, you
know, I'm not the biggestprocess guy, but you still have
to have a process for allowingpeople to innovate. And so I

(36:20):
think that's a really good callout there as well. Brooke, okay,
this has been an unbelievableconversation, but let's, let's
go to the status quo. You know,how are, how are people
reacting? How are peopleadjusting to everything that's
happened over the last handfulof years, especially, is the
industry evolving? What'sworking? What's not working as

(36:43):
part of this and part of thisadaptation here.
If you would have asked me thisquestion early, mid 2020, my
answer would be different thanit is now, and a lot of that's
because this industry, we saw alot of turnover and retention
issues. And so what we werehearing from a lot of CHROs was,
I am almost paying double forthe same role just to get bodies

(37:06):
in the door. So they wereliterally throwing money at a
problem, which is what we doright when we need when we need
staff, it's the first thing wethink of is, I gotta hire a
bunch of people, but we forgetabout the ones that we still
have, and now there becomes thisdiscrepancy of because, guess
what, whether we believe it ornot, they all talk to each

(37:28):
other, this generation,especially, they all talk about
what they make. And imaginebeing a loyal employee for five
years and you've gotten onemerit increase. You're just
grateful to have a job, and nowyour peer, who has two years
less experience than you, ismaking more than you. That's a
problem. And then HR was forcedwith, well, what do we do? We

(37:51):
can't afford to pay everybodythat same amount of money. So
are there other initiatives andthings that we can give out to
them to make it meaningful towork here. And that was, that
was about nine months ago. Now,HR is reevaluating, you know, do
we? Do we need all these people?
Is this even the rightconfiguration of a workforce? We

(38:15):
opened up the recruitingefforts, and we've hired in
states that we've never workedin before. We're now playing
paying employment taxes inplaces that we didn't have
entities in. We have to worryabout health care in states that
we didn't have health carecoverage for. Is it worth it to
pay for it? And if it's not,then what do we do? We either
force you back in and make youmove, or we eliminate a

(38:37):
position. And if, if they'vemade a decision, which I don't
know about you, but I have a lotof CHROs that have probably made
this decision seven times now,hybrid versus everybody back in
the office four days a week, andit's this, it's whiplash effect
that's starting to happen forpeople where they're just like,
whatever. They're going tochange their mind in six months
anyways. But the ones that aretalking about actually giving up

(39:00):
property is the interesting one,because they're putting a stake
in the ground and saying we willbe remote for forever, and that
means that we may need a smallerworkforce, because we don't need
as many bodies as we used to toget the work done. And it's it's
just shifting in a direction. Ithink it'll pivot again in six

(39:21):
months. But right now, a lot ofa lot of the clinical trial
companies that we work with areseeing this struggle of, we
gotta cut headcount by 10% wheredo we go? And that wasn't the
case nine months ago, right?
Yeah, what are the missedopportunities? What aren't we
doing correctly? How can we findthings you know, that a company

(39:45):
could do to take a more activerole in shaping the workforce?
What can we do tomorrow to makea difference already?
One thing I wanted to make surethat we hit on a little bit in
this conversation is especiallywhen we talk. About culture,
communications, marketing for alot of these clinical trial

(40:07):
spaces, a lot of the clients aretypically smaller. They don't
always have a hugeinfrastructure. You know, 500 to
1000 people, they may not have amarketing department. They may
not have a communicationsdepartment, and there's, there's
this expectation that HR has tofill the gap for all of it. And

(40:29):
it's actually not an HRinitiative. It shouldn't be
owned by HR. And if, if the Csuite has passed it off to the
HR team to go figure out you'regoing to miss the mark, because
HR isn't always thinking aboutthe broader cultural
implications. They have a lot ofemployment law in their heads.

(40:49):
They have a lot of industryregulation that has to be abided
by if they're in multiplecountries. They've got works
councils and unions to dealwith. They're not always going
to be on the forefront, which iswhy culture needs to be a
collective organizationalviewpoint. And the more you can
take it off hrs plate and put itback into the business, the

(41:10):
better it's going to be. Butsome of the things that we see
that break down and Leo, I don'tknow if you had anything to
share on the I was justgoing to say 100% agree with
that Brooke and what we'reseeing. And you know, when we
think about marketing budgets,is like, traditionally, We
counsel clients on thepercentage of, you know, revenue

(41:30):
goals to put back intomarketing, and how that looks
from a digital perspective, andhow much you should be spending
on trade shows, but definitelyover the last couple of years,
saying to them too, likeemployee engagement, retention,
that needs to be part of thebudget, and that needs to be
part of the marketing plan. Socoordinate with your HR teams.
Let us talk to your HR teams toreally help. Because, to your

(41:53):
point, for the last severalyears, they've been talking
about all of the other issuesabout back in the office, not
back in the office, and notreally thinking about how to
communicate that brand, thatmessage, internally, and that's
where I think the marketing teamcan be a big support, and
finding a partner could be a bigsupport, because your point, if

(42:13):
you've got a really leanmarketing team that's focused
on, you know, helping driverevenue, and you ask them to
take on these, you know,initiatives, they're, they're
going to fall to the bottom ofthe priority list too, every
time, every single time. And alot of what, you know, we, we
saw this in, what was it? 2008when the last financial crash

(42:34):
happened, and everyone was like,oh gosh, you know, pull back on
it all, all expenditure that isnot mission critical. And you
know, you saw things likeleadership development, culture
Marketing and Communications,executive coaching, like that
kind of stuff they stoppedpaying for because they thought

(42:54):
that these soft expenses werethings that were just easy to
get rid of. And in reality, whatended up happening was, three or
four years later, they hadmassive dysfunction at the
senior leadership level. Theydidn't know how to help support
their existing emerging leadersinto the roles they were being
promoted into, because there'sno development happening. They

(43:16):
were expecting it to be osmosisthrough just sitting in a room
with someone. Oh, you shouldtherefore know how to do this.
No, I don't know how to do this.
There was lack of careerdirection for a lot of people.
And the I think the one thingthat we're really seeing from
our clients right now andencouraging them is, don't to
your point. Leah, don't cut thatbudget completely out. Because

(43:38):
develop is spending money onyour people is one of the best
investments you can do, becausethey feel like you value that
they're there. They feel likethey you're investing in me to
be a better leader. I want to dothat for you because I believe
in what we're trying toaccomplish. So the the missed
opportunities, a lot of times wefind in in downturns that we're

(44:00):
going through right now is thisknee jerk reaction of cutting
some of the softer stuff thatnot all of it probably needs to
exist in totality, as it mayhave last year. But don't take
it completely away, becauseyou're gonna you're gonna
actually lose people because ofit. Your talent retention will
not increase. It will decreasewell.
And I think it's that tie to thecustomer service profit chain

(44:22):
from a business perspective too,right? Like you, all of a
sudden, now have a group ofinternal people who aren't as
engaged, who aren't giving thatsame level of service to your
clients, and your clients aren'tnecessarily coming back for
additional revenue and organicgrowth. So I think there's a way
to tell that message to thebusiness as a whole, to
investing in those those peoplereally has an effect on on your

(44:45):
profitability going forward. Sowe've, we've wrapped up here,
and I think it's only fair thatI, as the the judge or host of
this conversation, get to putthe both of you on the spot or.
Right now, which is, you know,really just your final thoughts,
right? Like, I think we'vetalked about seven or eight

(45:06):
different topics, and they allhold importance. But when we
think about, you know, thatpremise that we set of how
positive and uplifting culturecan, you know, support
retention, build long term teamsof dynamic and diverse
professionals, and how importantthat is in 2020 23 moving
forward, I'm interested. AndBrooke, I'll put you on the spot
first. But you know, what areyour final thoughts from today's

(45:27):
conversation? Ido want to make sure and
highlight the people. Side ofbusiness is the most important
side of business, and if youmiss that because of a little
bump in the road from afinancial standpoint, or, you
know, a market or a trial thatyou're working on doesn't go to

(45:48):
market quite as fast as youthought it was going to or there
was a hiccup in the process,don't immediately move to
cutting the things that connectpeople together. And that's
really what we're here to do, ishelp bridge the gap in the
connection. So if companiesdon't know how to do it, SCORR
is a great option to help withthe messaging and it to find
that voice and and developingyour people around their voice

(46:12):
and how to stay relevant in inthe shifts that the market's
going through. I think that thethe people side of this is so
important when we go throughhard times, they're your only
real asset, right? Without them,you can't do your business, and
so don't not invest in yourpeople, even though it's 2023.
Is a little tough right now, I100% agree Brooke, and I think

(46:35):
it's like, you know, as abusiness, how do you make sure
that you're thinking about thelong term success, as opposed
to, you know, to your point, ablip in the road, and
positioning yourself to takeadvantage. I mean, there's
definitely, from a competitivestandpoint, there's definitely
opportunities in down markets toreally take advantage and grab

(46:57):
market share and be that otherpeople might be laying off that
a team that I'm really lookingfor to run my clinical trial, so
why not really use it as anopportunity to double down and
and grow my business that way?
I love it well. Brooke Leah,thank you very much for for this

(47:17):
conversation. I think everybodywho listens to this, and however
we use it's going to get a lotout of it, so I appreciate it.
As always. Thank you for tuningin to this episode of The SCORR

(47:38):
cast, brought to you by SCORmarketing. We appreciate your
time and hope you found thisdiscussion insightful. Don't
forget to subscribe and join usfor our next episode. Until
then, remember, marketing issupposed to be fun. You
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