June 4, 2025 • 52 mins
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In this powerful episode of Security Halt!, host Deny Caballero welcomes Brandon Harding, a veteran and advocate for wilderness-based healing, to explore how nature, mindfulness, and community can transform mental health outcomes for those who’ve served.
Brandon shares his personal path from military service to self-discovery in the outdoors—unpacking the emotional weight of military identity, trauma, and the long journey toward healing. From breathwork and mindfulness practices to the simple awe of the wilderness, Brandon discusses how reconnecting with nature opens the door to resilience, clarity, and peace of mind.
This conversation dives deep into the role of gratitude, positive psychology, and guided conversations in helping veterans heal from unseen wounds. Whether you’re transitioning from service or supporting someone who is, this episode offers inspiring tools and real stories of post-service growth.
🎙️ If you believe healing is possible, this episode is for you.
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Chapters
00:00 The Healing Power of Nature
02:59 Brandon's Journey to Healing
06:07 Rediscovering Awe in the Outdoors
08:51 The Importance of Community and Connection
11:59 Guided Conversations and Trauma Processing
15:04 Positive Psychology and Gratitude in Nature
28:25 The Power of Breath and Mindfulness
30:55 Healing Through Wilderness Experiences
33:43 The Burden of Leadership and Vulnerability
38:05 Rediscovering Identity Beyond Military Service
41:01 Experiencing Nature Without Combat Stress
44:12 Letting Go of Emotional Baggage
46:55 Supporting Veterans Through Community Programs
Instagram: @securityhalt
Tik Tok: @security.halt.pod
LinkedIn: Deny Caballero
Connect with Brandon on social media and check out Veterans in the wild today!
LinkedIn: Brandon Harding
Website: Vetreransinthewild.org
Instagram: veterans.in.the.wild
Produced by Security Halt Media
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Security Halt Podcast .
Let's go.
The only podcast that'spurpose-built from the ground up
to support you Not just you,but the wider audience,
everybody.
Authentic, impactful andinsightful conversations that
serve a purpose to help you.
And the quality has gone up.
It's decent.
(00:21):
It's hosted by me, dannyCaballero Brandon.
How's it going, brother?
Welcome to Security Halt.
Yeah, hosted by me, dannyCaballero Brandon.
How's it going, brother?
Welcome to Security Hall?
Yeah, fantastic Thanks, danny.
Yeah, dude, it's great to seeorganizations and individuals
that are championing the idea ofgetting outside for healing.
We tend to think that thegreatest modalities often come
(00:41):
with the confines of an office,a couch and a therapist breaking
down our journey, telling ushow we should heal and recover.
But what I've realized in my ownpath to recovery and my own
path to getting better issometimes we need to experience
awe.
In the great outdoors Foundationand their program Overland,
(01:03):
which gets soft veterans outinto the backcountry of Utah to
experience some of thewilderness that a lot of us
don't even know exists.
I know, I certainly did notknow that Utah was as wonderful
as it is, and then, afterexperiencing that program, I
realized a lot of times thegreatest moments that we connect
in our own lived experience arealso linked to combat.
(01:26):
They're also linked toenvironments like Afghanistan.
And in order to challenge thatidea that our best moments or
our greatest moments with aweare locked in those experiences
in combat, we need to go out andexperience them here in our own
great United States, in our ownnational parks, in our own wild
, so we can have thatrecollection of like man, like I
(01:46):
was just in the mountains ofColorado and I got to see
bugling Elks, like that's grand.
So today, my man, I want to Danit down.
I want to break down yourjourney, your past, and figure
out how you came up with thisidea.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yeah, um, it kind of started after my third
deployment to Iraq.
I'd done back-to-backdeployments with 1st Battalion,
3rd Marines based out of Hawaii,and I was pretty much spent,
you know, I'll admit it, I waskind of like just worn out.
I got stationed in Florida anda friend of mine said hey,
(02:20):
there's this outward boundveterans program where they will
send you on an outward boundexpedition and it doesn't cost
you anything.
And so I went on one of thosetrips to northern Maine, and
this was in August of 2010.
And I went up backpacking witha group of all veterans.
(02:43):
We had all served in eitherIraq or Afghanistan and it was
just a great, great experienceto be there with these guys.
And I ran some programs in themilitary where I had the ability
to influence how we developthese programs, and so often the
programs, like you mentioned,it's like sitting on a
therapist's couch or going to aconference room kind of thing.
(03:05):
And as I reflected back on thattime in the wild, I was like
that was, that was amazing, andif we tweaked that just a little
bit we could even make itbetter.
And so I got connected with aformer Marine who had been an
outward bound guide for threeyears.
So he had the you know theinfantry background and served
in the Marine Corps.
But he himself had come to finda lot of healing and peace as
(03:27):
guiding veterans and others whowere outward bound, and so
together we decided we weregoing to create something unique
where we were going to takeInitially it was all active duty
folks stationed at Camp Lejeune, so that's where the program
began.
We started taking 10 Marines ata time, backpacking and rock
climbing in the mountains, inthe Blue Ridge Mountains, and
just had these really amazingexperiences Because it was
(03:50):
getting outside.
But one of the key things thathappened is we structured it so
that there was some guidedconversations around the fire
every night and thoseconversations became the real
catalysts to healing, just deepconnection, and they were
amazing and over the course ofdoing those just realized like
(04:12):
the wild is where it's at, andso began to do that not only for
the active duty component, butstarted doing it for veterans
groups as well, and continue totake couples.
We added that realm in.
So for you know, you and yourwife, we we do a couple's
adventure where we take, insteadof going to a nice hotel and,
you know, kind of living thebougie life.
(04:32):
We take couples out into thewild and you know they go poop
in the woods together, so youknow all that kind of fun stuff.
Um, that's kind of the journey.
Um, that's led to where I'm atnow, where we we have a
nonprofit called Veterans in theWild and we take different
groups out into the wild.
I just did a trip two weeks agoin southern Utah.
(04:53):
We've done a few there on theNavajo Nation and it's just
incredible to go into thatdesert landscape and just
experience that real sense ofawe.
You know when you're out there.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
And it's just, it's incredible.
And specifically in AfghanistanI hear this a lot the mountains
.
If you're anywhere near themountains of Afghanistan, a lot
of guys just describe vividlyflying over these mountain
ranges and seeing things thatfew people have seen, and they
can describe the moment of like,dude, we're flying at night and
(05:39):
we saw these little blips oflight and I just realized that's
a remote, remote village andI'm like wondering.
I'm sitting in that back of theramp of that ch47 just thinking
to myself like wow, like whatis it like to be out there?
And like all these moments canlike vividly told throughout our
g watt generation of veteransof of how they found on these
(05:59):
moments climbing and patrollingin these mountains, at like one
moment, like you're, you'reserious danger but you're
pausing and you're looking atthese beautiful peaks and you're
like wow, holy cow, like Icould literally die at any
moment.
But, holy cow, like look atthis and you don't realize.
When you're talking and you'resharing these details with your
friends and your family members,it is kind of sad that all
(06:21):
those moments of beauty and aweare locked in and deeply
connected to trauma, deeplyconnected to the sensations and
feelings of loss, and we have tohelp rewrite that narrative.
We have to continue living.
We have to go out there, haveadventures again, which is
something that not a lot ofpeople are talking about, aside
from the therapy, aside fromlike being able to talk again
(06:42):
and connect with other people.
We have to become explorersagain.
We really do.
We have to find the enjoymentof being out in the world and
when you look back in your life,is this something that you had
growing up?
Was?
Was the outdoor something thatyou grew up with?
Did you find it later on inlife?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
So I grew up in in Southern Utah, the, my hometown,
the elevation was 5,600 feet.
Every day there was a mountainright behind my house that went
up to over 10,000 feet and soevery day as a kid we were
(07:21):
building forts and hiking aroundand messing around in there.
I think it was, you know,during that military life
especially, you know, whenyou're going to the field,
you're doing training ops all ofthat becomes not very fun
anymore and the idea of likegoing camping or going on some
kind of like wilderness thing, Ithink for a lot of military
folks and veterans they're justlike oh man, I remember those.
Those were not fun at all andso you have to sort of reframe
(07:44):
it.
In fact, one of our taglineswhen we were at Lejeune was
making camping fun again.
You can grow, no one's checkingyour shave when you're out
there.
You can just sort of relax andsit around a fire, which a lot
of times in trainingenvironments, of course, and in
combat, you can't build acampfire out in the middle of
the wild.
That's a security thing, right.
(08:06):
So you know, being able to sitaround a fire at night and just
chat with, you know, with yourfellow veterans is an amazing
thing, but for me it wasrediscovering it.
When I went on that outwardbound trip, I'd gotten away from
from sort of being in the wildfor a number of years and I
think a lot of it was just dueto being in the field with the
(08:27):
military and deploying with themilitary, you know, to places
that weren't necessarily fun,and so just deciding, yeah, I
don't really want to do that.
I mean, I remember, after OIFone, I was like I don't think I
ever want to go camping again.
You know, after sleeping in thedirt next to my home V for you
know, months on end, um, I waslike, yeah, I'm kind of over
this.
Um and so doing that trip inthe summer of 2010 was sort of
(08:52):
like rediscovery, like, you know, that sense of awe that you
referred to.
There's actually a brilliantbook by a psychologist named
Docker Keltner and if youhaven't read it which obviously
it's on your shelf I've read itmultiple times and it's an
amazing book getting into thescience behind why it's so
important to have thoseexperiences of awe.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Yeah, I started digging into it myself because I
found myself.
You know I had forgotten that Ihad experienced awe as a young
man outside of combat, outsideof Afghanistan, and I was only
reliving, or at least talkingabout and romanticizing these
things, like the mountains ofAfghanistan, these moments that
(09:36):
seem larger than life, and youhold on to so proudly, and you
should.
You should look back and beproud of your service and the
things you've seen, but don'tdiscount the other thousands or
hundreds of other moments whereyou've experienced outside of
combat and then be able toexperience the joy of seeing
(09:57):
things.
I had a really good closefriend that was also a Marine,
that had been in the initialinvasion, and we had a group of
Marines that were lost out inBoulder, colorado, and there was
an all call for anybody in theFront Range area to go help do a
(10:17):
search and rescue.
And I remember me and my buddy,brian, went up there and we
were hiking for like three days.
We're hiking up the ContinentalDivide just seeing beautiful
things that you know you takefor granted when you live in
Colorado, and I realized thatone of those, one of those hikes
, you know you're going up pastthe outlying, you're, you're in
snow and you're like, holy shit,we just we're out here hiking
(10:40):
this by ourselves, like with noparental supervision, nobody
that gives a love, and we'rejust out here just having an
adventure like, just like this,this.
I cannot forget this moment.
How quickly we forget it foryears, completely forgot about
that experience, until yearslater you sit down and you
recollect and you realize, ohshit, like done great things.
And in that book of awe it alsobreaks down that this is not
(11:04):
something that's well studiedand well known, that how it
clings to your heart.
It brings and evokes so muchemotion behind, and that's what
we also need to talk about.
Like a lot of us are dealingwith mental health issues, moral
injury, ptsd.
There's this stopgap, this wallthat we built around expressing
our own emotions.
(11:25):
We do really well with anger.
We do really well with anger.
We do really well with anger.
But, man, let me tell you, youtake somebody on an adventure to
go see beautiful backcountrysettings or seeing mountains in
the United States and in so manydifferent places, and you will
see emotion finally come throughand become an accessible thing.
(11:45):
You see, people literally havemoments of like just crying
because they're seeing somethingthat's so beautiful, it moves
them and it's like, wow, like wetend to think as being being
out in nature, is this one thingoh, we're going to go hunting,
we're going to do this backpack,we're going to go with veterans
exploration therapy and we'regoing to go do some outdoor
stuff.
And it's more than that.
It's connecting somebody to whothey are, not in the past, not
(12:08):
in their past service, but inthe moment, who they are and be
able to express something.
And that's something that wedon't talk about enough.
We just see it as it's, like wesee recreational therapy as as
a very one dimensional, but it'sit's deeper than that
absolutely, and I think, kind oftying into that what, what's
been my experience?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
when you take a group of either active duty or
veterans or other folks out intothe wild, you combine the
physical challenge of it andthat sort of like preps people
for those moments of awe, like,um, you know, you can look at a
beautiful photo you know thatsomeone took, you know, or you
(12:48):
know someone posts, you know onsocial media like, oh, wow,
that's a really cool photo.
It's something completelydifferent when you've spent
seven hours going up and down,up and down with, you know, 30
or 40 pounds on your back andthen you get to that just uh, it
just hits different.
It's just a different, adifferent experience.
We refer to it as, like typetwo fun, you know fun that right
(13:11):
in that moment it's not verymuch fun.
You're like, oh man, this iskind of sucks.
But then when you get to thatVista and you know there's this
beautiful scene in front of you,like I've watched many, many,
you know grown men, you knowservice members that tear up as
they're looking out over thereand, like, like you said, they
get in touch with those realemotions that a lot of times
they've been keeping downbecause the military does such a
(13:33):
good job of training us, youknow, not to feel things, so we
have to unlearn some of that.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Absolutely it's.
It's something that I mean you.
You hit it right there, nail onthe head when you earn
something, you're putting inthat work.
That's something we'reintimately familiar with having
to get down in the trenches andwork for something, but then to
be rewarded with a beautifulview versus a 15-minute child
(14:00):
break, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
On our last trip we stopped at this one Canyon.
This was just like two weeksago.
It's probably one of the mostspectacular views that I've seen
.
It's it's down in the near LakePowell, utah, in this desert
area, and we spent probably 45minutes just sitting on the edge
of this cliff just looking outover this valley, like everybody
(14:26):
was just like just sat thereand most of us were quiet
because it was just soincredibly beautiful and just
taking it all in.
I mean I could have stayedthere probably all day, but you
know we had to move on.
Eventually we had to get to ourdestination, but it was just one
of those things that you knowyou can feel your soul expand
and you can feel like yourhumanity grow, which I think is
(14:49):
one of the things that happens.
You know, after too much, toomuch time and in rough places
where people want to hurt you,you know your, your humanity
tends to diminish a little bit,and so that's, that's one of the
things that helps, I think, isto grow, grow that sense of
humanity again, and the wilddoes it in a way that other
things just don't hit the sameway yeah, you know I want to go
(15:11):
back to something that youtalked about a little earlier.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
We, um, we tend to think that we can just jump into
these experiences and, you know, not necessarily utilize a
framework, but when it comes totalking about things like we do
need a structure at least.
Fireside chats are great, butin this community it can often
(15:34):
lead to more complex issues ofreliving trauma, just sharing
combat stories.
How did you go about developing, you know, the guidelines for
how to approach thesediscussions around that fireside
setting?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So way back in the day 2004,this was after my first tour to
Iraq we got trained by apsychologist named Robert Grant.
So Robert Grant had gone allover the world in trauma zones,
like some of the most horrificwar-torn places on the planet.
(16:10):
He would go and help peopleprocess what they'd gone through
and he trained a lot ofclinicians to go into those
zones and so he developed thisframework that then he began
using a lot with the firstMarine division and then he came
and trained a bunch of us onhow to use this with the groups
(16:30):
that we were with, and so I hadhim come speak to our battalion
in 2007, before we deployed toIraq and took all of the staff
NCOs and officers and kind ofwalk them through this process
to help folks to be able to toprocess their trauma while
they're in combat, but in a waythat didn't make you, um, like
(16:51):
you need to.
So you need to have a hardnessabout you when you're out there.
You know you can't.
Just you know so.
So there's this hardness thatyou have to carry, but you need
to learn how to process thingsin a way that kind of keeps that
edge going, but withoutbuilding up so much trauma that
it gets toxic.
So his model does that.
And then in 2018, actually itwas COVID, because I remember,
(17:14):
because he wasn't sure he wantedto come because of COVID was
going on but we had him come toCamp Lejeune again and provide
this training again to I thinkabout 25 folks went through it
again.
And so we've used that model of,like his formal name, for it is
called a trauma reprocessinggroup, and so we've used that
(17:35):
model, with some modificationsthat we do around the fire at
night when we're in these offthe grid locations, and it, like
you said, it has a structure toit.
It's not just hey, tell me your, tell me your story, um, but
it's got a focus to it in a waythat it happens to where the
trauma, um, or the burden, ifyou will it's actually relieved.
(17:59):
And so what I've found in many,many cases, like an individual
can unpack stuff with theirtherapist or with a counselor or
chaplain or whoever they'reworking with, but it hits
differently when they processthat with fellow veterans or
fellow service members that haveexperienced those same things.
It just happens.
It happens in a way that reallydoes lift them up and they can
(18:22):
like feel that weight truly comeoff and and move forward.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah, there's.
There's a lot of efficacy andthere's a lot of proof in being
able to provide a healing.
A healing, and completely.
It has to be a tribe or a groupthat has similar issues and
there's a lot.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I was just going to say that that's one of the kind
of like if you think, like ourmission, that we sort of you
know, describe what we're goingto do when we go out into the
wild, is that's really it?
We're trying to create a tribe.
We're trying to take thesedifferent individuals and a lot
of times they don't know eachother until you know that day,
like they.
That's really it.
We're trying to create a tribe.
We're trying to take thesedifferent individuals and a lot
of times they don't know eachother until that day, like they
(19:10):
meet as we link up by the end ofthat week out in the wild, they
describe themselves as a tribe.
In fact, we had one sergeantmajor with us on a trip a couple
of years ago at Lejeune whosaid at the end of the week he
said I haven't felt this closeto a group of people since my
tour in Afghanistan, and that'sreally what you're trying to do.
You're trying to create thatculture of safety and belonging
(19:32):
with this group to where you canprocess things in a way that
you couldn't do it in any othercontext.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah, you know, one of the things that I always talk
about and I try to champion isthe the importance of building
your network, your community.
Have you noticed or have youseen within the participants of
your, your program that theystick together and they continue
to go off and have their ownlittle little adventures
together after going throughyour program?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
together after going through your program.
Yeah, it was funny.
Last summer we did one of ourmarriage expeditions and so at
the end of it the couplescreated their own Facebook group
and kept connecting usingsocial media, and then they
would post that they weregetting together for like
coffees and they were going togo have lunch together.
And so there have been thoseOne of our first marriage things
that we did at Lejeune.
(20:25):
Some of those couples continueto stay in close contact five
years later.
So, yes, I mean it doesn'talways happen that way, of
course.
But yeah, with the veteransgroups too, one of them that we
work closely with is called 23rdVeteran out of Minnesota.
They've got a great programwhere they take veterans for a
(20:48):
week off the grid for like thiswilderness kind of reset, where
you form this tribe and weprocess things out in the wild
and then when they get back,they're committed to staying
together for 13 weeks, wherethey do 13 weeks of CrossFit and
positive psychology as a groupand then graduate together.
So that's a group that we'vedone a lot of work with.
(21:10):
In fact, we did a trip withthem to Florida in February and
then we're taking them to Alaskain July and they do great work,
because that's part of theprogram is to keep people
connected while they workthrough this stuff together.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
I am so glad you brought up positive psychology,
um near and dear to my heart, ummindfulness practitioner, and
not enough people know or orappreciate it, and I just want
people to realize there are.
There's a lot, of, a lot ofgrowth in in different um
communities, moving towards oraway, I should say, from
(21:49):
conventional, modern,conventional approaches, and
Positive Psychology is a greatread.
If you're curious, looking fornew alternatives to getting help
, I highly encourage it becausethere's more going right with
you than there is going wrongand we need to talk about that.
Not enough people are sayingthat we want to run towards what
we think are just focusing onthe negatives and the constant
(22:10):
problems that we hyper-focus on.
We forget all the good that'sgoing on in our lives and that's
, I think that's somethingthat's really powerful about
going outdoors.
When you remove yourself fromthis, going outdoors, when you
remove yourself from this, youremove yourself from the
constant flow of negative uhideas and voices.
You realize that, um, you knowlife isn't about being perfect.
(22:32):
Uh, you have to fall in lovewith the process of whatever
you're going through, but youhave to focus on what's going
right in your life.
Um, and I think that'ssomething that we find when we
go outdoors, when you weremaking things a little more
simpler.
Can you just focus on makingsure you tie the right knots,
make sure you move forward, stayon trail.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
It's interesting, like bringing that up.
Like, I'm just like you, I lovepositive psychology and
mindfulness, and so we begin todo some of those practices out
in the wild with the folks thatare on these trips to sort of
help them begin to reframe somethings in their life.
And, like, one of the big onesis, there is no phones allowed
on the trips at all.
It's a complete digital detox.
(23:16):
And then at the end of everyday, before we we share, you
know, meals together, cause wewant to have like a you know,
that communal component of ofsharing a meal together at night
, and before we we eat, we standin a circle and have everyone
reflect on the day and theneveryone shares their gratitude,
(23:37):
like, so they, like, you know,they specifically state, hey,
today I was really grateful for,and it could have been, you
know, they specifically state,hey, today I was really grateful
for, and it could have been,you know, something really
simple, like, oh, I was reallygrateful for that little lizard
that I saw, you know, goingacross the trail, or I was
really grateful for theconversation that I had with you
know, so-and-so while we wereon the trail, but it just helps
(23:58):
them be more intentionallyfocused and they know about that
.
They know this is going to be aroutine that we're going to do
every night and so over thecourse of the week, you know
they're getting in the habit ofthinking about that oh, what am
I going to share tonight for mygratitude?
And so it sort of reframes.
What they're focusing on duringthe day is like, oh, I want to
be able to, you know, havesomething you know good to share
(24:20):
.
And so you start looking forthe good things that are going
on while they're on the trailand then the hope is, you know,
what we're really hoping is theybegin to apply that.
And a few years ago I had a guyreach out to me after one of
the trips that we did at Lejeuneand he said the trip was great,
loved everything about it, andthe one thing that stuck with me
(24:41):
that I've, that I've starteddoing at home with my kids at
night, is we go around the tableat night and we share a
gratitude before we eat dinnerand I was like, yeah, that's
super cool.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, it's funny, the competition element of it.
When you know you're going tohave to be talking about it, any
service member is going to belike.
Well, I want to have the bestshare.
I want to bring up the bestthing, and that's oftentimes
when I've worked with clients inthe past and when I helped
somebody cultivate moregratitude in their life.
(25:13):
It's like, hey, I need you togo through your day and I don't
want your list to be random.
I want your top five bestmoments you completely want to
focus on and share.
And it's like once you put itout there, like I want you to
share your top five, your bestmoments like, oh man, I'm gonna
scrutinize everything and it'slike just getting people to
realize that that's the joy,that's the true hidden treasure.
(25:35):
You're going around spendingyour day looking for moments
like I'm gonna open the door forthat person, I'm gonna try to
be a little more kind of thisperson, have this moment.
And that's just like you put itinto somebody's mind this is
what you should be focusing on.
And then eventually theyrealize like, oh wait, it's not
about the list, it's not aboutkeeping track and numerating.
(25:56):
No, it's just being present,being aware that this is
happening right now and everyday, every day of your life,
you're going to have all thesethings your kids smiling at you
when you wake them up, your wifecoming in and bringing you a
cup of coffee.
How quickly that becomesmundane and just becomes your
norm and you don't realize howwonderful you have it.
That's the thing that easily,when we put more emphasis on
(26:21):
those miracles, on thosewonderful little moments, the
likes and notifications you getfrom this thing really doesn't
mean shit, like no offense.
I appreciate all of you outthere.
You're great, but none of youare none of you equal, like come
close to how amazing it is tosee my little girl staring up at
me when I wake her up in themorning.
That's the, that's the thingsthat we have to be gracious and
(26:42):
show gratitude for that when welook back at our lives.
I didn't have that when I wasin the military.
I'd love to say that I had thatawareness when I was on an ODA,
when I was on a team, when Iwas a warrant officer.
I didn't have that, and it'snot sad.
No, I'm grateful and I'm sohappy I have it now, because
then I can advocate for it, Ican tell you at home how
(27:05):
important it is to have it andcultivate it, and then you can
start developing this right outon your own.
You don't have to go out in thewoods.
I would appreciate it if youdid, because you need to connect
with Mother Nature, but it'ssomething that we don't talk
about as much.
It's getting a little bit morein the forefront, but it still
has this sort of likeconnotation of the woo, woo and
hippie stuff and it's like no,we've, if we look back at the
(27:28):
warriors that raised us.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
They they were talking about gratitude back
then, maybe with a lot moreF-bombs, but yeah, and most of
the mindfulness practices thatyou know people are reengaging
with, they're finding out thatthey're ancient practices.
They're not something new thata psychologist came up with, you
know, and I love MartinSeligman, but he didn't invent
(27:51):
positive psychology.
It's been around for a fewthousand years.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Yes, yeah, it's funny like reading, and I'm actively
in my master's program forpositive psychology.
But it's like you know, ryanHoliday great guy Love it.
The Daily Stoic great.
But these are practices thathave been around for eons, like
(28:14):
it's been around.
The one that I always throw outto my friends that are really
hesitant to it is a simpleexercise of confidence in the
water.
I am not a good, I'm not a diveguy, I'm not a water guy, but
the first time it clicked thatbreathing was a powerful tool
was with one powerful individual, one powerful mentor that was
(28:37):
finally able to get me to calmdown and realize that bobbing in
the pool was a recoveryexercise, not a ploy to punish
you.
No, it's like breathe, relax.
It's like it finally clicked.
And then, when I learned aboutmindfulness, when I learned
about focusing on your breath,being present in your breath,
I'm like holy shit, this is nodifferent than being on a gun
(28:58):
line, being a sniper, managingyour breath.
When you're bringing theseconcepts up to our, to your
participants, does it ever notbecome a moment of like God,
like it blows my mind every time?
Does it still have the sameimpact on you?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah, I think each time that I go and do it it it's
just a reminder of howimportant it is.
Like you know, I get back tothe quote unquote regular world
after being out in the wild andyou know it doesn't stick
sometimes and so going back outeach time is like oh yeah, this
is, this is what I need to bedoing in my regular life.
(29:37):
You know, when I'm back at home, I need to make sure I'm doing
all these things and I love likethe breath work stuff home.
I need to make sure I'm doingall these things and I love like
the breath work stuff that'sreally important and powerful.
To like teach people how tobreathe, to not be in mouth
breather right.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
like you know, yeah, yeah, that's uh.
Who.
Who would have thought that wewould have developed this, uh,
this ability to not breatheproperly due to the our modern
focus on, you know, anxiety androoted in in our work culture?
Like I didn't know, I wasbreathing wrong, for for eons it
(30:11):
took me reading uh breath by uh, oh, gosh, um yeah, I've got it
on my shelf upstairs.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
It's a great book.
Yeah, but it's it'll come to me.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I'm trying to look and see where it's out of my
shelf, but uh, it's a great book.
Yeah, it'll come to me.
I'm trying to look and seewhere it's at on my shelf, but
is it Michael Nestor?
I believe it's Nestor.
Yeah, james, I think it's JamesNestor.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
That's where it is.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
yes, but coming into the point of wanting to be
better in my own life, my ownperformance, I started realizing
there's something weird aboutthe way I breathe, there's
something weird about the wayI'm breathing.
And sure enough, that book blewmy mind as I was constantly
reading, scanning emails, butnot breathing, just pausing, and
(30:56):
I'm like, and he had, that waslike one of the first chapters
in the book.
I was like, wow, like I'm thatscrewed up, I'm so removed from
how my body's supposed to workLike but it's.
It's important to understandthat nobody's born with this
insight.
And when you look back on yourown journey, you know I've come
to realize that a lot of peoplethat build these things often
(31:17):
enough build them because theythemselves need healing, they
need something for themselves.
Going all the way back to thatyoung Brandon, like what were
you going through and how didthis become a way for you to
heal?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
That's a great question, I think, for me.
I had some tragedies happenwhen I was a young person.
My father was killed in atragic accident when I was 15.
And I think that reallyimpacted me for a long time,
sort of like working throughthat and then joining the
military, you know, at a youngage.
Um, like like many probablypeople that are listening, you
(32:00):
know I was I was 17 when I wentto bootcamp way back in the day.
Um, so you know, I didn'treally ever give my scent myself
a chance to really, you know,go through the depths of.
You know what I needed to do toheal, and I'm probably just
barely figuring that out now, atalmost age 55.
Like, oh yeah, there's probablysome stuff back in there I need
(32:22):
to unpack.
And going into the wild andbeing exposed to these other
people that have showntremendous courage in what they
are being vulnerable about andprocessing out there in the wild
has had that same impact in myown life.
Like I want to be better.
I want to like work throughsome of those things you know
that impact me as a young person.
And you're right, like figuringthat out now and, as I've begun
(32:46):
, doing those trips has made memore self-aware of the journey
that I need to complete.
You know I'm.
There's a phrase you probablyhave heard.
It's of the wounded healerright, yes, yeah, no, we all
carry wounds.
And so you know there's,there's nobody that's out there,
like you know, that doesn'thave something that they're
trying to work through, and so Ireally love the concept of
(33:07):
being the wounded healer.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yeah, it's um.
I often tell people like, lookwithin your formation for the
individual that is so hyperfocused on helping and bringing
resources to.
The guys and gals are in painor dealing with something, and
there you can identify somebodythat also needs help.
They're often the ones wearingthe mask and it's the best, the
(33:33):
most pristine mask is the one ofthe leader that's out there.
That's why so many of our starmajors, some of our senior NCOs
they are the ones that need somuch help, because they're
holding onto that mask sotightly, because they feel like
they have to support everybodyelse first.
And it's not true.
You deserve to get healed too.
(33:53):
You deserve to have theseexperiences In your program.
Have you noticed that that'softentimes one of the things
that people bring with them,this burden of being a leader or
being seen as a leader andfeeling like they shouldn't have
access to this care?
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Yeah, for sure.
You've probably heard this andit's not a secret that as you
move up in leadership it getslonelier and lonelier to sort of
set those responsibilitiesaside.
(34:38):
So one of the unique well, it'snot unique, but one of the
requirements in these trips iswhen we do them for active duty
component people, they cannotrefer to their rank or what they
do in the military, like youknow, for the trip.
You know they're Eric orthey're Bob or they're Susan or
whatever, and, and you know, afew people have kind of like you
(35:00):
know, are you sure we can dothat?
And I'm like, yes, absolutely,you have to do that, because
it's about you as a person.
If you come out here asSergeant, major so-and-so, or
Colonel so-and-so, you're goingto stay in that position where
you're not going to allowyourself to to be healed or to
be to experience that sense ofconnection and belonging because
(35:21):
you're putting yourself, youknow, in a different category.
And so when they do, when theyreally do, sort of set that
aside and come out there, as youknow, denny, you, you come into
the wild as Denny it opens aspace for them to really receive
that healing that they need.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
I would imagine you might have had a little bit of
pushback from some gunnies.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I'm trying to think of who had the hardest time.
I think the one time that I hadthe hardest time was, um, an
individual that came out thatwas, uh, he was a Lieutenant
Colonel, um, but he had been a,uh, an enlisted Marine and had
spent his whole life, you know,in.
I mean, he'd been in like 30plus years, um, and you know,
(36:10):
had never done anything but theMarine Corps, and so you know,
his whole identity was, you know, you know, around being a
Marine, which is a lot of youknow.
That's one of the great thingsabout the Marine Corps, and
getting him to sort of put thataside for a few days, I mean,
that was it, he.
It challenged him a little bitbut at the end of the day he was
(36:31):
able to do it and had anamazing experience and good, you
know, really.
You know really sort of warmedmy soul.
I think my favorite day was ona day four, when he came to the
morning little check-in thingand he hadn't shaved.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
That's a win.
Right there, that's a win.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Cause the first few days I heard is like a little
electric razor going like he wasI'm surprised he wasn't the
canteen cup you heard the bigrazor just dry shaving.
I'm sure he's done it thousandsof times over the course of,
you know, 30 plus years in theMarine Corps.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Oh man.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
That was fun and we have to understand.
It's funny, but it speaks tothe dedication that a human
being has, not only to ournation, not only to the men and
women that they swore to protectand defend, but to their entire
service, to be dedicated tothis one mission and make it
(37:39):
their 100%, their identity,their entire personality, and to
be willing to take a knee andpause and say, no, I'm more than
this this morning.
And it's not.
It's not simple folks.
It's not just a simple gesture.
It's.
For a lot of people, it's a bigstep forward in understanding
that there's somebody else,there's an identity.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
And I think that's one of the key things that these
wilderness trips really helppeople do, especially for the
veterans.
When you're in the military,that kind of is your identity
and it probably needs to be youridentity for that period of
time.
But when you get out, whetheryou serve four years or eight
years or did a full career, youknow, whatever you did.
I know for me, when I retiredfrom the military, I had 35
(38:25):
years of total military service.
So I, you know, I was 17 when Iwent to bootcamp, like I said
earlier.
So I needed, you know, some ofthat transition away from that
identity.
And so I think a lot ofveterans that's, you know,
that's one of those keytransition things that they need
is like okay, who am I?
You know, my military careertold me I was a, you know this,
(38:47):
um, but but who am I?
And so they come out into thewild and there's something
really powerful to when you'reout.
There's something reallypowerful too when you're out
there with this group of people.
You're off the grid and, justlike a couple of weeks ago, in
this area where we're at,there's almost no light from
other sources.
It's truly one of the mostremote places you can go, so
(39:07):
there's not ambient light comingin from other places.
In fact, you don't really evensee airplanes airplanes like jet
airliners there are a few thatcrossover, but that's one of the
things.
I think they might've talkedWell, no, that was a different
book anyway but they're able tolike look up at the stars and
really see the sky for maybe thefirst time, like really like
(39:30):
look at it.
And we had a, a meteor showerthat happened one of the nights
and it was just amazing.
Just to look out there and youkind of just I don't know
realize, yeah, it just taps youinto something bigger, um, when
you're out there in the wild,something that just resonates,
you know, at a deeply spiritual,you know soulful level and that
(39:51):
helps shift away from oh, I'mmore than just you know whoever
you were when you're in themilitary.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yeah, it's, it's something that we have to force
ourselves to go out there andexperience it again.
That's another powerful thingthat I hear often, like the
first time people see a truenight sky without the pollution
from the city, it's when they'rein Iraq or Afghanistan.
That was a powerful thing forme.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
After every mission, my first, uh, first trip just go
out there at night, grab theold ipod, grab a pack of
cigarettes and lay on the hoodof the humvee and look up, just
yep and be able to like realizelike wow, like these are stars
that I can't see normally in theunited states, because lights
yeah, some of my very favoriteum experiences in iraq, and then
(40:41):
later when I was deployed on anaircraft carrier we're watching
the sun rises, come up like goup there when it was still
completely dark and just watchthe sun as it would come up.
You know, you ever been out inthe open ocean where there's
nothing like you're?
You know, and you watch the suncome up?
That's, that's really amazing.
And the same thing, true, youknow, with with Iraq.
(41:03):
I didn't spend any time inAfghanistan, but I'm sure it was
very similar.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
It's those beautiful moments that we need to force
ourselves to experience here ina, in a, in a different time, a
different setting, and be ableto tell ourselves like we can
see wonderful things and nothave to worry about getting
mortared or rocketed.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yes, yeah, that's the beautiful thing, right, you're
out in the wild and we werejoking um on this last trip.
That one of the beautifulthings is we didn't have to set
up a fire watch, like you know.
You weren't going to have to.
Okay, well, you got up from oneto you know, we just went to
sleep and enjoyed the peace ofbeing in a really remote,
(41:45):
beautiful place and withoutthose extra stressors that come
like with being in a combatenvironment where you know
legitimately you have to takeprecautions or your life could
be at risk.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
In the lives of the people that you're with.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Yeah, it's being able to experience it without that,
like you do want some excitementand a little bit of adrenaline
rush, um, but not to the pointwhere that's you're tapping into
that fight or flight, andthat's.
That's the one of the big keythings too right, like being
able to experience wonderfulthings without it being
connected to your fight orflight response yeah, the
(42:24):
amygdala is turned off and youcan just, you know, just enjoy
it.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
And there is like we have some areas on some of these
hikes where what we call is ahigh consequence fall, like it's
like legit, like you know,there's like eight or nine
inches of trail and on one sideis a 600 foot drop and if you
misstep, you know, but it getsyou hyper focused on getting
through that part and not havingthat but it's not the same, I
(42:52):
don't't think is um, when youknow someone's targeting you.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Yeah, yeah, very different.
You know there's the otherthing that, um, we have to move
away from is the idea that doingthese things will somehow like
take away the um, your warrior'sedge, like doing things to get
better and to move forwardYou're you certainly have to let
(43:17):
go of these myths and dogma,but you're not letting go or
moving away from the warriorthat you are.
Like that's something that alot of people still hold on to,
like if I go do these things tohelp me process or to help me
deal better with my anger, I'mletting go of the guy that got
(43:39):
me through my deployments.
And that's not the truth.
That's not reality.
Reality is you need to connectand be able to process things.
That person, that part of you,is still going to be there.
You're still a capable warrior.
You're just helping deal withsome of the baggage you have
that you've carried throughthose deployments, through those
life events, or you dealt withsome trauma.
(43:59):
Have you been able to to breakthat through?
And break through that, thatprotective coating some of the
hardened individuals that comethrough the program?
Speaker 2 (44:09):
oh, yeah, yeah, and it's really great to watch as
that happens, as they do setaside those things.
And you know the analogysometimes and this is where,
like being on the trail andbackpacking, you know, comes
into play.
And you know, in the military,you know the rock life is a real
thing, you know, live in therock life.
Like each one of those traumasor those things that you didn't
(44:36):
process, it's like puttinganother rock in your pack.
So how effective are you ifyou're carrying an extra 40 or
50 pounds of rocks in your pack?
Like you can't move, shoot andcommunicate in the same way that
you could if your pack only hadwhat it needed in it.
But each one of those things,those burdens, you know it's
like an extra.
You know it's like an extra.
You know five to 10 pound rockyou're putting in your pack, and
(44:59):
so that metaphor, you know,helps people.
Just, you know, kind of thinkthrough, I'm like, oh yeah, this
is going to actually make me,you know, like, but putting this
down, taking this out of mypack, actually makes me better
at being a soldier or a Marineor, you know, whatever,
whoever's out there with us.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Yeah, it's so true.
Shed the weight, get rid ofthat.
Yeah, whatever you're carrying,understand that you can process
it Like you don't, and it's.
It's not for me to tell you whento do it, but your family and
the people closest to you,they'll probably let you know
(45:37):
that there's some things youneed to let go of.
There's some things you need tomove forward.
Man, like, the best years ofyour life aren't behind you,
they're ahead of you.
So move forward into your lifewith a sense of purpose, a sense
of clarity and a sense thatyou've accomplished great things
and you're leaving all thebullshit behind you.
You don't have to carry it.
Whatever you're dealing with,trust me, you can get over it.
(46:00):
You can move through it.
The obstacle is the way.
Lean into it, don't ignore itanymore.
And I'm sure, brandon, you canbe a testament in your own
journey and share what it's donefor your life to face things
and and say you know what.
I'm going to make my nextchapter be of purpose and of
service to other people and I'mnot going to carry this with me
(46:21):
anymore.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, you know, as I reflect backon, you know my service and the
sort of the burdens that I'vecarried, um, being able to like
lay those down is it makes ahuge difference.
You know, like you, I'm married.
My wife and I we've beenmarried almost 29 years and you
(46:45):
know, if I'm not right, shemakes sure you know let's.
That's the benefit of a greatwife is, you know they'll,
they'll help you understand.
You know the rocks that I'm notwilling to put down.
They're like hey, I see you'vegot a big rock in your pack.
How come you're still all thataround?
It's like, oh, yeah, you'reright, I need to, I need to let
that you know, lay that down,cause, at the end of the day,
(47:07):
it's about the most importantpeople in your life, which,
hopefully, that's your.
You know.
If you're married, that's yourspouse.
If you have kids, that's yourkids, and if you don't have a
spouse or kids, you know it'sother important people.
At the end of the day, it's it'salways about relationships.
It's, um, you know, maybe yourrelationships with people that
you served with when you were in.
Maybe it's, you know, otherrelationships, family members,
(47:29):
you know.
But so one of the ways that Ilike to frame.
You know, those burdens orthose things that I'm carrying
is in what?
How are they getting in the wayof me having a deeper, you know
healthier, relationship withthe people that I care about?
And you know, that's one ofthose hard look in the mirror
kind of things like, okay, yeah,this thing that I'm carrying,
(47:53):
it's, it's getting in the way,so I need to do something about
it.
Um, and that's sometimes thehardest part, you know it's it's
taking action on that thing.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Yeah and uh.
Brandon, I can't thank youenough for being here today.
And one last thing if peoplewant to participate in your
program, how do they get aholdof you, how do they sign up and
where are some of the placesyou've gone to in the past?
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Yeah, so the easiest way is our website,
veteransinthewildorg.
We're a nonprofit so you knowsome of it's based on how much
fundraising we have coming inand our ability to offer
programs.
So right now the programs thatwe have open, we've got a couple
of marriage enrichmentexpeditions for the couples that
(48:37):
are out there.
We also have one that wehaven't announced yet, but we'll
have a couple more, actuallytwo more this fall where we'll
have folks Olympic National Parkarea or in the desert southwest
in Utah near Lake Powell, andwe've used the desert southwest
(49:05):
one because it's just a nextlevel kind of experience, to be
honest.
Yeah, you know that book that wereferred to by Dr Keltner, awe
like this area inspires more awethan any other place I've ever
been to.
And you combine it with theNavajo Nation.
One of the elders there we'vegotten to know fairly well and
(49:29):
so he'll come and give a littletalk to the veterans about the
sacredness of that land and howtheir warriors reintegrated back
into society and that's beenreally powerful to go into the
Navajo Nation, just setting thestage of this really sacred
place to go into.
So those are the two main areas, but we've done trips in
(49:50):
Florida.
Our trips originally began inNorth Carolina and we may be
back in North Carolina.
We're headed to Alaska thissummer as well.
That one's kind of a closedentry, though, because it's
being done with an organizationcalled 23rd Veteran, but the
website is the best place forpeople to learn more about the
programs that we offer, and youcan sign up on the website.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Thank you, Guys.
If you do me a favor, justpause right now.
Go to the episode description,either on YouTube, Spotify or
Apple Podcasts.
Look at those links, Go aheadand give them a click.
Can they donate directly to thewebsite if they go?
Speaker 2 (50:23):
there they can.
Yeah, there's a Donate Nowbutton, so if anybody's feeling
like, hey, I'd love to helpsupport veterans through one of
these programs, that would beamazing.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
Absolutely so, if you're already there, throw them
a couple bucks 25, 30, 50,maybe a cool hundred grand, help
fund them for the next year ortwo, I don't know.
Whatever you want, whatever youwant, it's important for us to
support these programs becausenot only are they giving back to
our community, they're helpingour brothers and sisters.
Look, the suicide epidemic isnot going away and no one's
going to solve it for us, but wecan support individuals that
(50:55):
are actually in the fight,helping stem this problem, and
that's what Brandon's doing.
That's what we need to supporthim and his organization.
So, please, whatever you gottoday, if you can spare a couple
of bucks, send them your way.
You know, help, contribute,help, put some money out there
to help programs like this keepgoing, because I know they make
a difference.
Some of my friends have beenparticipants in programs like
(51:16):
this and let me tell you, itchanges lives.
I myself, I'm headed over toutah here in a couple days to be
part of their overland program,which is amazing and every time
I go there I'm able to see myuh queen beret brothers go from.
You know, some of them aredealing with real world issues
and they walk in and you seethem.
They're struggling andafterwards, after just five days
(51:39):
out in some of the most amazing, beautiful areas of Utah,
they're a complete differentperson.
So I know that these programshelp save lives.
So please, seriously, if youcan donate today, please do so.
Brandon, I can't thank youenough for what you're doing and
for joining me today.
It's an absolute pleasure toconnect with you on here,
(51:59):
brother, and if you guys needanything, please reach out.
And to everybody listening,thank you for tuning in.
I truly appreciate it.
Head on over to YouTube, giveus a follow, a like and a
subscribe.
If you give us a review, I'dappreciate that too.
I'm Denny Caballero.
Thank you for tuning in andwe'll see you all next time.
Until then, take care.
Thanks for tuning in and don'tforget to like, follow, share,
(52:23):
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And remember we get throughthis together.
If you're still listening, theepisode's over.
(52:45):
Yeah, there's no more Tune intomorrow or next week.
Security Halt Podcast .
Let's go.
The only podcast that'spurpose-built from the ground up
to support you Not just you,but the wider audience,
everybody.
Authentic, impactful andinsightful conversations that
serve a purpose to help you.
And the quality has gone up.
It's decent.
(00:21):
It's hosted by me, dannyCaballero Brandon.
How's it going, brother?
Welcome to Security Halt.
Yeah, hosted by me, dannyCaballero Brandon.
How's it going, brother?
Welcome to Security Hall?
Yeah, fantastic Thanks, danny.
Yeah, dude, it's great to seeorganizations and individuals
that are championing the idea ofgetting outside for healing.
We tend to think that thegreatest modalities often come
(00:41):
with the confines of an office,a couch and a therapist breaking
down our journey, telling ushow we should heal and recover.
But what I've realized in my ownpath to recovery and my own
path to getting better issometimes we need to experience
awe.
In the great outdoors Foundationand their program Overland,
(01:03):
which gets soft veterans outinto the backcountry of Utah to
experience some of thewilderness that a lot of us
don't even know exists.
I know, I certainly did notknow that Utah was as wonderful
as it is, and then, afterexperiencing that program, I
realized a lot of times thegreatest moments that we connect
in our own lived experience arealso linked to combat.
(01:26):
They're also linked toenvironments like Afghanistan.
And in order to challenge thatidea that our best moments or
our greatest moments with aweare locked in those experiences
in combat, we need to go out andexperience them here in our own
great United States, in our ownnational parks, in our own wild
, so we can have thatrecollection of like man, like I
(01:46):
was just in the mountains ofColorado and I got to see
bugling Elks, like that's grand.
So today, my man, I want to Danit down.
I want to break down yourjourney, your past, and figure
out how you came up with thisidea.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yeah, um, it kind of started after my third
deployment to Iraq.
I'd done back-to-backdeployments with 1st Battalion,
3rd Marines based out of Hawaii,and I was pretty much spent,
you know, I'll admit it, I waskind of like just worn out.
I got stationed in Florida anda friend of mine said hey,
(02:20):
there's this outward boundveterans program where they will
send you on an outward boundexpedition and it doesn't cost
you anything.
And so I went on one of thosetrips to northern Maine, and
this was in August of 2010.
And I went up backpacking witha group of all veterans.
(02:43):
We had all served in eitherIraq or Afghanistan and it was
just a great, great experienceto be there with these guys.
And I ran some programs in themilitary where I had the ability
to influence how we developthese programs, and so often the
programs, like you mentioned,it's like sitting on a
therapist's couch or going to aconference room kind of thing.
(03:05):
And as I reflected back on thattime in the wild, I was like
that was, that was amazing, andif we tweaked that just a little
bit we could even make itbetter.
And so I got connected with aformer Marine who had been an
outward bound guide for threeyears.
So he had the you know theinfantry background and served
in the Marine Corps.
But he himself had come to finda lot of healing and peace as
(03:27):
guiding veterans and others whowere outward bound, and so
together we decided we weregoing to create something unique
where we were going to takeInitially it was all active duty
folks stationed at Camp Lejeune, so that's where the program
began.
We started taking 10 Marines ata time, backpacking and rock
climbing in the mountains, inthe Blue Ridge Mountains, and
just had these really amazingexperiences Because it was
(03:50):
getting outside.
But one of the key things thathappened is we structured it so
that there was some guidedconversations around the fire
every night and thoseconversations became the real
catalysts to healing, just deepconnection, and they were
amazing and over the course ofdoing those just realized like
(04:12):
the wild is where it's at, andso began to do that not only for
the active duty component, butstarted doing it for veterans
groups as well, and continue totake couples.
We added that realm in.
So for you know, you and yourwife, we we do a couple's
adventure where we take, insteadof going to a nice hotel and,
you know, kind of living thebougie life.
(04:32):
We take couples out into thewild and you know they go poop
in the woods together, so youknow all that kind of fun stuff.
Um, that's kind of the journey.
Um, that's led to where I'm atnow, where we we have a
nonprofit called Veterans in theWild and we take different
groups out into the wild.
I just did a trip two weeks agoin southern Utah.
(04:53):
We've done a few there on theNavajo Nation and it's just
incredible to go into thatdesert landscape and just
experience that real sense ofawe.
You know when you're out there.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
And it's just, it's incredible.
And specifically in AfghanistanI hear this a lot the mountains
.
If you're anywhere near themountains of Afghanistan, a lot
of guys just describe vividlyflying over these mountain
ranges and seeing things thatfew people have seen, and they
can describe the moment of like,dude, we're flying at night and
(05:39):
we saw these little blips oflight and I just realized that's
a remote, remote village andI'm like wondering.
I'm sitting in that back of theramp of that ch47 just thinking
to myself like wow, like whatis it like to be out there?
And like all these moments canlike vividly told throughout our
g watt generation of veteransof of how they found on these
(05:59):
moments climbing and patrollingin these mountains, at like one
moment, like you're, you'reserious danger but you're
pausing and you're looking atthese beautiful peaks and you're
like wow, holy cow, like Icould literally die at any
moment.
But, holy cow, like look atthis and you don't realize.
When you're talking and you'resharing these details with your
friends and your family members,it is kind of sad that all
(06:21):
those moments of beauty and aweare locked in and deeply
connected to trauma, deeplyconnected to the sensations and
feelings of loss, and we have tohelp rewrite that narrative.
We have to continue living.
We have to go out there, haveadventures again, which is
something that not a lot ofpeople are talking about, aside
from the therapy, aside fromlike being able to talk again
(06:42):
and connect with other people.
We have to become explorersagain.
We really do.
We have to find the enjoymentof being out in the world and
when you look back in your life,is this something that you had
growing up?
Was?
Was the outdoor something thatyou grew up with?
Did you find it later on inlife?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
So I grew up in in Southern Utah, the, my hometown,
the elevation was 5,600 feet.
Every day there was a mountainright behind my house that went
up to over 10,000 feet and soevery day as a kid we were
(07:21):
building forts and hiking aroundand messing around in there.
I think it was, you know,during that military life
especially, you know, whenyou're going to the field,
you're doing training ops all ofthat becomes not very fun
anymore and the idea of likegoing camping or going on some
kind of like wilderness thing, Ithink for a lot of military
folks and veterans they're justlike oh man, I remember those.
Those were not fun at all andso you have to sort of reframe
(07:44):
it.
In fact, one of our taglineswhen we were at Lejeune was
making camping fun again.
You can grow, no one's checkingyour shave when you're out
there.
You can just sort of relax andsit around a fire, which a lot
of times in trainingenvironments, of course, and in
combat, you can't build acampfire out in the middle of
the wild.
That's a security thing, right.
(08:06):
So you know, being able to sitaround a fire at night and just
chat with, you know, with yourfellow veterans is an amazing
thing, but for me it wasrediscovering it.
When I went on that outwardbound trip, I'd gotten away from
from sort of being in the wildfor a number of years and I
think a lot of it was just dueto being in the field with the
(08:27):
military and deploying with themilitary, you know, to places
that weren't necessarily fun,and so just deciding, yeah, I
don't really want to do that.
I mean, I remember, after OIFone, I was like I don't think I
ever want to go camping again.
You know, after sleeping in thedirt next to my home V for you
know, months on end, um, I waslike, yeah, I'm kind of over
this.
Um and so doing that trip inthe summer of 2010 was sort of
(08:52):
like rediscovery, like, you know, that sense of awe that you
referred to.
There's actually a brilliantbook by a psychologist named
Docker Keltner and if youhaven't read it which obviously
it's on your shelf I've read itmultiple times and it's an
amazing book getting into thescience behind why it's so
important to have thoseexperiences of awe.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Yeah, I started digging into it myself because I
found myself.
You know I had forgotten that Ihad experienced awe as a young
man outside of combat, outsideof Afghanistan, and I was only
reliving, or at least talkingabout and romanticizing these
things, like the mountains ofAfghanistan, these moments that
(09:36):
seem larger than life, and youhold on to so proudly, and you
should.
You should look back and beproud of your service and the
things you've seen, but don'tdiscount the other thousands or
hundreds of other moments whereyou've experienced outside of
combat and then be able toexperience the joy of seeing
(09:57):
things.
I had a really good closefriend that was also a Marine,
that had been in the initialinvasion, and we had a group of
Marines that were lost out inBoulder, colorado, and there was
an all call for anybody in theFront Range area to go help do a
(10:17):
search and rescue.
And I remember me and my buddy,brian, went up there and we
were hiking for like three days.
We're hiking up the ContinentalDivide just seeing beautiful
things that you know you takefor granted when you live in
Colorado, and I realized thatone of those, one of those hikes
, you know you're going up pastthe outlying, you're, you're in
snow and you're like, holy shit,we just we're out here hiking
(10:40):
this by ourselves, like with noparental supervision, nobody
that gives a love, and we'rejust out here just having an
adventure like, just like this,this.
I cannot forget this moment.
How quickly we forget it foryears, completely forgot about
that experience, until yearslater you sit down and you
recollect and you realize, ohshit, like done great things.
And in that book of awe it alsobreaks down that this is not
(11:04):
something that's well studiedand well known, that how it
clings to your heart.
It brings and evokes so muchemotion behind, and that's what
we also need to talk about.
Like a lot of us are dealingwith mental health issues, moral
injury, ptsd.
There's this stopgap, this wallthat we built around expressing
our own emotions.
(11:25):
We do really well with anger.
We do really well with anger.
We do really well with anger.
But, man, let me tell you, youtake somebody on an adventure to
go see beautiful backcountrysettings or seeing mountains in
the United States and in so manydifferent places, and you will
see emotion finally come throughand become an accessible thing.
(11:45):
You see, people literally havemoments of like just crying
because they're seeing somethingthat's so beautiful, it moves
them and it's like, wow, like wetend to think as being being
out in nature, is this one thingoh, we're going to go hunting,
we're going to do this backpack,we're going to go with veterans
exploration therapy and we'regoing to go do some outdoor
stuff.
And it's more than that.
It's connecting somebody to whothey are, not in the past, not
(12:08):
in their past service, but inthe moment, who they are and be
able to express something.
And that's something that wedon't talk about enough.
We just see it as it's, like wesee recreational therapy as as
a very one dimensional, but it'sit's deeper than that
absolutely, and I think, kind oftying into that what, what's
been my experience?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
when you take a group of either active duty or
veterans or other folks out intothe wild, you combine the
physical challenge of it andthat sort of like preps people
for those moments of awe, like,um, you know, you can look at a
beautiful photo you know thatsomeone took, you know, or you
(12:48):
know someone posts, you know onsocial media like, oh, wow,
that's a really cool photo.
It's something completelydifferent when you've spent
seven hours going up and down,up and down with, you know, 30
or 40 pounds on your back andthen you get to that just uh, it
just hits different.
It's just a different, adifferent experience.
We refer to it as, like typetwo fun, you know fun that right
(13:11):
in that moment it's not verymuch fun.
You're like, oh man, this iskind of sucks.
But then when you get to thatVista and you know there's this
beautiful scene in front of you,like I've watched many, many,
you know grown men, you knowservice members that tear up as
they're looking out over thereand, like, like you said, they
get in touch with those realemotions that a lot of times
they've been keeping downbecause the military does such a
(13:33):
good job of training us, youknow, not to feel things, so we
have to unlearn some of that.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Absolutely it's.
It's something that I mean you.
You hit it right there, nail onthe head when you earn
something, you're putting inthat work.
That's something we'reintimately familiar with having
to get down in the trenches andwork for something, but then to
be rewarded with a beautifulview versus a 15-minute child
(14:00):
break, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
On our last trip we stopped at this one Canyon.
This was just like two weeksago.
It's probably one of the mostspectacular views that I've seen
.
It's it's down in the near LakePowell, utah, in this desert
area, and we spent probably 45minutes just sitting on the edge
of this cliff just looking outover this valley, like everybody
(14:26):
was just like just sat thereand most of us were quiet
because it was just soincredibly beautiful and just
taking it all in.
I mean I could have stayedthere probably all day, but you
know we had to move on.
Eventually we had to get to ourdestination, but it was just one
of those things that you knowyou can feel your soul expand
and you can feel like yourhumanity grow, which I think is
(14:49):
one of the things that happens.
You know, after too much, toomuch time and in rough places
where people want to hurt you,you know your, your humanity
tends to diminish a little bit,and so that's, that's one of the
things that helps, I think, isto grow, grow that sense of
humanity again, and the wilddoes it in a way that other
things just don't hit the sameway yeah, you know I want to go
(15:11):
back to something that youtalked about a little earlier.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
We, um, we tend to think that we can just jump into
these experiences and, you know, not necessarily utilize a
framework, but when it comes totalking about things like we do
need a structure at least.
Fireside chats are great, butin this community it can often
(15:34):
lead to more complex issues ofreliving trauma, just sharing
combat stories.
How did you go about developing, you know, the guidelines for
how to approach thesediscussions around that fireside
setting?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So way back in the day 2004,this was after my first tour to
Iraq we got trained by apsychologist named Robert Grant.
So Robert Grant had gone allover the world in trauma zones,
like some of the most horrificwar-torn places on the planet.
(16:10):
He would go and help peopleprocess what they'd gone through
and he trained a lot ofclinicians to go into those
zones and so he developed thisframework that then he began
using a lot with the firstMarine division and then he came
and trained a bunch of us onhow to use this with the groups
(16:30):
that we were with, and so I hadhim come speak to our battalion
in 2007, before we deployed toIraq and took all of the staff
NCOs and officers and kind ofwalk them through this process
to help folks to be able to toprocess their trauma while
they're in combat, but in a waythat didn't make you, um, like
(16:51):
you need to.
So you need to have a hardnessabout you when you're out there.
You know you can't.
Just you know so.
So there's this hardness thatyou have to carry, but you need
to learn how to process thingsin a way that kind of keeps that
edge going, but withoutbuilding up so much trauma that
it gets toxic.
So his model does that.
And then in 2018, actually itwas COVID, because I remember,
(17:14):
because he wasn't sure he wantedto come because of COVID was
going on but we had him come toCamp Lejeune again and provide
this training again to I thinkabout 25 folks went through it
again.
And so we've used that model of,like his formal name, for it is
called a trauma reprocessinggroup, and so we've used that
(17:35):
model, with some modificationsthat we do around the fire at
night when we're in these offthe grid locations, and it, like
you said, it has a structure toit.
It's not just hey, tell me your, tell me your story, um, but
it's got a focus to it in a waythat it happens to where the
trauma, um, or the burden, ifyou will it's actually relieved.
(17:59):
And so what I've found in many,many cases, like an individual
can unpack stuff with theirtherapist or with a counselor or
chaplain or whoever they'reworking with, but it hits
differently when they processthat with fellow veterans or
fellow service members that haveexperienced those same things.
It just happens.
It happens in a way that reallydoes lift them up and they can
(18:22):
like feel that weight truly comeoff and and move forward.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah, there's.
There's a lot of efficacy andthere's a lot of proof in being
able to provide a healing.
A healing, and completely.
It has to be a tribe or a groupthat has similar issues and
there's a lot.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I was just going to say that that's one of the kind
of like if you think, like ourmission, that we sort of you
know, describe what we're goingto do when we go out into the
wild, is that's really it?
We're trying to create a tribe.
We're trying to take thesedifferent individuals and a lot
of times they don't know eachother until you know that day,
like they.
That's really it.
We're trying to create a tribe.
We're trying to take thesedifferent individuals and a lot
of times they don't know eachother until that day, like they
(19:10):
meet as we link up by the end ofthat week out in the wild, they
describe themselves as a tribe.
In fact, we had one sergeantmajor with us on a trip a couple
of years ago at Lejeune whosaid at the end of the week he
said I haven't felt this closeto a group of people since my
tour in Afghanistan, and that'sreally what you're trying to do.
You're trying to create thatculture of safety and belonging
(19:32):
with this group to where you canprocess things in a way that
you couldn't do it in any othercontext.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah, you know, one of the things that I always talk
about and I try to champion isthe the importance of building
your network, your community.
Have you noticed or have youseen within the participants of
your, your program that theystick together and they continue
to go off and have their ownlittle little adventures
together after going throughyour program?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
together after going through your program.
Yeah, it was funny.
Last summer we did one of ourmarriage expeditions and so at
the end of it the couplescreated their own Facebook group
and kept connecting usingsocial media, and then they
would post that they weregetting together for like
coffees and they were going togo have lunch together.
And so there have been thoseOne of our first marriage things
that we did at Lejeune.
(20:25):
Some of those couples continueto stay in close contact five
years later.
So, yes, I mean it doesn'talways happen that way, of
course.
But yeah, with the veteransgroups too, one of them that we
work closely with is called 23rdVeteran out of Minnesota.
They've got a great programwhere they take veterans for a
(20:48):
week off the grid for like thiswilderness kind of reset, where
you form this tribe and weprocess things out in the wild
and then when they get back,they're committed to staying
together for 13 weeks, wherethey do 13 weeks of CrossFit and
positive psychology as a groupand then graduate together.
So that's a group that we'vedone a lot of work with.
(21:10):
In fact, we did a trip withthem to Florida in February and
then we're taking them to Alaskain July and they do great work,
because that's part of theprogram is to keep people
connected while they workthrough this stuff together.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
I am so glad you brought up positive psychology,
um near and dear to my heart, ummindfulness practitioner, and
not enough people know or orappreciate it, and I just want
people to realize there are.
There's a lot, of, a lot ofgrowth in in different um
communities, moving towards oraway, I should say, from
(21:49):
conventional, modern,conventional approaches, and
Positive Psychology is a greatread.
If you're curious, looking fornew alternatives to getting help
, I highly encourage it becausethere's more going right with
you than there is going wrongand we need to talk about that.
Not enough people are sayingthat we want to run towards what
we think are just focusing onthe negatives and the constant
(22:10):
problems that we hyper-focus on.
We forget all the good that'sgoing on in our lives and that's
, I think that's somethingthat's really powerful about
going outdoors.
When you remove yourself fromthis, going outdoors, when you
remove yourself from this, youremove yourself from the
constant flow of negative uhideas and voices.
You realize that, um, you knowlife isn't about being perfect.
(22:32):
Uh, you have to fall in lovewith the process of whatever
you're going through, but youhave to focus on what's going
right in your life.
Um, and I think that'ssomething that we find when we
go outdoors, when you weremaking things a little more
simpler.
Can you just focus on makingsure you tie the right knots,
make sure you move forward, stayon trail.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
It's interesting, like bringing that up.
Like, I'm just like you, I lovepositive psychology and
mindfulness, and so we begin todo some of those practices out
in the wild with the folks thatare on these trips to sort of
help them begin to reframe somethings in their life.
And, like, one of the big onesis, there is no phones allowed
on the trips at all.
It's a complete digital detox.
(23:16):
And then at the end of everyday, before we we share, you
know, meals together, cause wewant to have like a you know,
that communal component of ofsharing a meal together at night
, and before we we eat, we standin a circle and have everyone
reflect on the day and theneveryone shares their gratitude,
(23:37):
like, so they, like, you know,they specifically state, hey,
today I was really grateful for,and it could have been, you
know, they specifically state,hey, today I was really grateful
for, and it could have been,you know, something really
simple, like, oh, I was reallygrateful for that little lizard
that I saw, you know, goingacross the trail, or I was
really grateful for theconversation that I had with you
know, so-and-so while we wereon the trail, but it just helps
(23:58):
them be more intentionallyfocused and they know about that
.
They know this is going to be aroutine that we're going to do
every night and so over thecourse of the week, you know
they're getting in the habit ofthinking about that oh, what am
I going to share tonight for mygratitude?
And so it sort of reframes.
What they're focusing on duringthe day is like, oh, I want to
be able to, you know, havesomething you know good to share
(24:20):
.
And so you start looking forthe good things that are going
on while they're on the trailand then the hope is, you know,
what we're really hoping is theybegin to apply that.
And a few years ago I had a guyreach out to me after one of
the trips that we did at Lejeuneand he said the trip was great,
loved everything about it, andthe one thing that stuck with me
(24:41):
that I've, that I've starteddoing at home with my kids at
night, is we go around the tableat night and we share a
gratitude before we eat dinnerand I was like, yeah, that's
super cool.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, it's funny, the competition element of it.
When you know you're going tohave to be talking about it, any
service member is going to belike.
Well, I want to have the bestshare.
I want to bring up the bestthing, and that's oftentimes
when I've worked with clients inthe past and when I helped
somebody cultivate moregratitude in their life.
(25:13):
It's like, hey, I need you togo through your day and I don't
want your list to be random.
I want your top five bestmoments you completely want to
focus on and share.
And it's like once you put itout there, like I want you to
share your top five, your bestmoments like, oh man, I'm gonna
scrutinize everything and it'slike just getting people to
realize that that's the joy,that's the true hidden treasure.
(25:35):
You're going around spendingyour day looking for moments
like I'm gonna open the door forthat person, I'm gonna try to
be a little more kind of thisperson, have this moment.
And that's just like you put itinto somebody's mind this is
what you should be focusing on.
And then eventually theyrealize like, oh wait, it's not
about the list, it's not aboutkeeping track and numerating.
(25:56):
No, it's just being present,being aware that this is
happening right now and everyday, every day of your life,
you're going to have all thesethings your kids smiling at you
when you wake them up, your wifecoming in and bringing you a
cup of coffee.
How quickly that becomesmundane and just becomes your
norm and you don't realize howwonderful you have it.
That's the thing that easily,when we put more emphasis on
(26:21):
those miracles, on thosewonderful little moments, the
likes and notifications you getfrom this thing really doesn't
mean shit, like no offense.
I appreciate all of you outthere.
You're great, but none of youare none of you equal, like come
close to how amazing it is tosee my little girl staring up at
me when I wake her up in themorning.
That's the, that's the thingsthat we have to be gracious and
(26:42):
show gratitude for that when welook back at our lives.
I didn't have that when I wasin the military.
I'd love to say that I had thatawareness when I was on an ODA,
when I was on a team, when Iwas a warrant officer.
I didn't have that, and it'snot sad.
No, I'm grateful and I'm sohappy I have it now, because
then I can advocate for it, Ican tell you at home how
(27:05):
important it is to have it andcultivate it, and then you can
start developing this right outon your own.
You don't have to go out in thewoods.
I would appreciate it if youdid, because you need to connect
with Mother Nature, but it'ssomething that we don't talk
about as much.
It's getting a little bit morein the forefront, but it still
has this sort of likeconnotation of the woo, woo and
hippie stuff and it's like no,we've, if we look back at the
(27:28):
warriors that raised us.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
They they were talking about gratitude back
then, maybe with a lot moreF-bombs, but yeah, and most of
the mindfulness practices thatyou know people are reengaging
with, they're finding out thatthey're ancient practices.
They're not something new thata psychologist came up with, you
know, and I love MartinSeligman, but he didn't invent
(27:51):
positive psychology.
It's been around for a fewthousand years.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Yes, yeah, it's funny like reading, and I'm actively
in my master's program forpositive psychology.
But it's like you know, ryanHoliday great guy Love it.
The Daily Stoic great.
But these are practices thathave been around for eons, like
(28:14):
it's been around.
The one that I always throw outto my friends that are really
hesitant to it is a simpleexercise of confidence in the
water.
I am not a good, I'm not a diveguy, I'm not a water guy, but
the first time it clicked thatbreathing was a powerful tool
was with one powerful individual, one powerful mentor that was
(28:37):
finally able to get me to calmdown and realize that bobbing in
the pool was a recoveryexercise, not a ploy to punish
you.
No, it's like breathe, relax.
It's like it finally clicked.
And then, when I learned aboutmindfulness, when I learned
about focusing on your breath,being present in your breath,
I'm like holy shit, this is nodifferent than being on a gun
(28:58):
line, being a sniper, managingyour breath.
When you're bringing theseconcepts up to our, to your
participants, does it ever notbecome a moment of like God,
like it blows my mind every time?
Does it still have the sameimpact on you?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah, I think each time that I go and do it it it's
just a reminder of howimportant it is.
Like you know, I get back tothe quote unquote regular world
after being out in the wild andyou know it doesn't stick
sometimes and so going back outeach time is like oh yeah, this
is, this is what I need to bedoing in my regular life.
(29:37):
You know, when I'm back at home, I need to make sure I'm doing
all these things and I love likethe breath work stuff home.
I need to make sure I'm doingall these things and I love like
the breath work stuff that'sreally important and powerful.
To like teach people how tobreathe, to not be in mouth
breather right.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
like you know, yeah, yeah, that's uh.
Who.
Who would have thought that wewould have developed this, uh,
this ability to not breatheproperly due to the our modern
focus on, you know, anxiety androoted in in our work culture?
Like I didn't know, I wasbreathing wrong, for for eons it
(30:11):
took me reading uh breath by uh, oh, gosh, um yeah, I've got it
on my shelf upstairs.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
It's a great book.
Yeah, but it's it'll come to me.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I'm trying to look and see where it's out of my
shelf, but uh, it's a great book.
Yeah, it'll come to me.
I'm trying to look and seewhere it's at on my shelf, but
is it Michael Nestor?
I believe it's Nestor.
Yeah, james, I think it's JamesNestor.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
That's where it is.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
yes, but coming into the point of wanting to be
better in my own life, my ownperformance, I started realizing
there's something weird aboutthe way I breathe, there's
something weird about the wayI'm breathing.
And sure enough, that book blewmy mind as I was constantly
reading, scanning emails, butnot breathing, just pausing, and
(30:56):
I'm like, and he had, that waslike one of the first chapters
in the book.
I was like, wow, like I'm thatscrewed up, I'm so removed from
how my body's supposed to workLike but it's.
It's important to understandthat nobody's born with this
insight.
And when you look back on yourown journey, you know I've come
to realize that a lot of peoplethat build these things often
(31:17):
enough build them because theythemselves need healing, they
need something for themselves.
Going all the way back to thatyoung Brandon, like what were
you going through and how didthis become a way for you to
heal?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
That's a great question, I think, for me.
I had some tragedies happenwhen I was a young person.
My father was killed in atragic accident when I was 15.
And I think that reallyimpacted me for a long time,
sort of like working throughthat and then joining the
military, you know, at a youngage.
Um, like like many probablypeople that are listening, you
(32:00):
know I was I was 17 when I wentto bootcamp way back in the day.
Um, so you know, I didn'treally ever give my scent myself
a chance to really, you know,go through the depths of.
You know what I needed to do toheal, and I'm probably just
barely figuring that out now, atalmost age 55.
Like, oh yeah, there's probablysome stuff back in there I need
(32:22):
to unpack.
And going into the wild andbeing exposed to these other
people that have showntremendous courage in what they
are being vulnerable about andprocessing out there in the wild
has had that same impact in myown life.
Like I want to be better.
I want to like work throughsome of those things you know
that impact me as a young person.
And you're right, like figuringthat out now and, as I've begun
(32:46):
, doing those trips has made memore self-aware of the journey
that I need to complete.
You know I'm.
There's a phrase you probablyhave heard.
It's of the wounded healerright, yes, yeah, no, we all
carry wounds.
And so you know there's,there's nobody that's out there,
like you know, that doesn'thave something that they're
trying to work through, and so Ireally love the concept of
(33:07):
being the wounded healer.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yeah, it's um.
I often tell people like, lookwithin your formation for the
individual that is so hyperfocused on helping and bringing
resources to.
The guys and gals are in painor dealing with something, and
there you can identify somebodythat also needs help.
They're often the ones wearingthe mask and it's the best, the
(33:33):
most pristine mask is the one ofthe leader that's out there.
That's why so many of our starmajors, some of our senior NCOs
they are the ones that need somuch help, because they're
holding onto that mask sotightly, because they feel like
they have to support everybodyelse first.
And it's not true.
You deserve to get healed too.
(33:53):
You deserve to have theseexperiences In your program.
Have you noticed that that'softentimes one of the things
that people bring with them,this burden of being a leader or
being seen as a leader andfeeling like they shouldn't have
access to this care?
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Yeah, for sure.
You've probably heard this andit's not a secret that as you
move up in leadership it getslonelier and lonelier to sort of
set those responsibilitiesaside.
(34:38):
So one of the unique well, it'snot unique, but one of the
requirements in these trips iswhen we do them for active duty
component people, they cannotrefer to their rank or what they
do in the military, like youknow, for the trip.
You know they're Eric orthey're Bob or they're Susan or
whatever, and, and you know, afew people have kind of like you
(35:00):
know, are you sure we can dothat?
And I'm like, yes, absolutely,you have to do that, because
it's about you as a person.
If you come out here asSergeant, major so-and-so, or
Colonel so-and-so, you're goingto stay in that position where
you're not going to allowyourself to to be healed or to
be to experience that sense ofconnection and belonging because
(35:21):
you're putting yourself, youknow, in a different category.
And so when they do, when theyreally do, sort of set that
aside and come out there, as youknow, denny, you, you come into
the wild as Denny it opens aspace for them to really receive
that healing that they need.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
I would imagine you might have had a little bit of
pushback from some gunnies.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I'm trying to think of who had the hardest time.
I think the one time that I hadthe hardest time was, um, an
individual that came out thatwas, uh, he was a Lieutenant
Colonel, um, but he had been a,uh, an enlisted Marine and had
spent his whole life, you know,in.
I mean, he'd been in like 30plus years, um, and you know,
(36:10):
had never done anything but theMarine Corps, and so you know,
his whole identity was, you know, you know, around being a
Marine, which is a lot of youknow.
That's one of the great thingsabout the Marine Corps, and
getting him to sort of put thataside for a few days, I mean,
that was it, he.
It challenged him a little bitbut at the end of the day he was
(36:31):
able to do it and had anamazing experience and good, you
know, really.
You know really sort of warmedmy soul.
I think my favorite day was ona day four, when he came to the
morning little check-in thingand he hadn't shaved.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
That's a win.
Right there, that's a win.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Cause the first few days I heard is like a little
electric razor going like he wasI'm surprised he wasn't the
canteen cup you heard the bigrazor just dry shaving.
I'm sure he's done it thousandsof times over the course of,
you know, 30 plus years in theMarine Corps.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Oh man.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
That was fun and we have to understand.
It's funny, but it speaks tothe dedication that a human
being has, not only to ournation, not only to the men and
women that they swore to protectand defend, but to their entire
service, to be dedicated tothis one mission and make it
(37:39):
their 100%, their identity,their entire personality, and to
be willing to take a knee andpause and say, no, I'm more than
this this morning.
And it's not.
It's not simple folks.
It's not just a simple gesture.
It's.
For a lot of people, it's a bigstep forward in understanding
that there's somebody else,there's an identity.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
And I think that's one of the key things that these
wilderness trips really helppeople do, especially for the
veterans.
When you're in the military,that kind of is your identity
and it probably needs to be youridentity for that period of
time.
But when you get out, whetheryou serve four years or eight
years or did a full career, youknow, whatever you did.
I know for me, when I retiredfrom the military, I had 35
(38:25):
years of total military service.
So I, you know, I was 17 when Iwent to bootcamp, like I said
earlier.
So I needed, you know, some ofthat transition away from that
identity.
And so I think a lot ofveterans that's, you know,
that's one of those keytransition things that they need
is like okay, who am I?
You know, my military careertold me I was a, you know this,
(38:47):
um, but but who am I?
And so they come out into thewild and there's something
really powerful to when you'reout.
There's something reallypowerful too when you're out
there with this group of people.
You're off the grid and, justlike a couple of weeks ago, in
this area where we're at,there's almost no light from
other sources.
It's truly one of the mostremote places you can go, so
(39:07):
there's not ambient light comingin from other places.
In fact, you don't really evensee airplanes airplanes like jet
airliners there are a few thatcrossover, but that's one of the
things.
I think they might've talkedWell, no, that was a different
book anyway but they're able tolike look up at the stars and
really see the sky for maybe thefirst time, like really like
(39:30):
look at it.
And we had a, a meteor showerthat happened one of the nights
and it was just amazing.
Just to look out there and youkind of just I don't know
realize, yeah, it just taps youinto something bigger, um, when
you're out there in the wild,something that just resonates,
you know, at a deeply spiritual,you know soulful level and that
(39:51):
helps shift away from oh, I'mmore than just you know whoever
you were when you're in themilitary.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yeah, it's, it's something that we have to force
ourselves to go out there andexperience it again.
That's another powerful thingthat I hear often, like the
first time people see a truenight sky without the pollution
from the city, it's when they'rein Iraq or Afghanistan.
That was a powerful thing forme.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
After every mission, my first, uh, first trip just go
out there at night, grab theold ipod, grab a pack of
cigarettes and lay on the hoodof the humvee and look up, just
yep and be able to like realizelike wow, like these are stars
that I can't see normally in theunited states, because lights
yeah, some of my very favoriteum experiences in iraq, and then
(40:41):
later when I was deployed on anaircraft carrier we're watching
the sun rises, come up like goup there when it was still
completely dark and just watchthe sun as it would come up.
You know, you ever been out inthe open ocean where there's
nothing like you're?
You know, and you watch the suncome up?
That's, that's really amazing.
And the same thing, true, youknow, with with Iraq.
(41:03):
I didn't spend any time inAfghanistan, but I'm sure it was
very similar.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
It's those beautiful moments that we need to force
ourselves to experience here ina, in a, in a different time, a
different setting, and be ableto tell ourselves like we can
see wonderful things and nothave to worry about getting
mortared or rocketed.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yes, yeah, that's the beautiful thing, right, you're
out in the wild and we werejoking um on this last trip.
That one of the beautifulthings is we didn't have to set
up a fire watch, like you know.
You weren't going to have to.
Okay, well, you got up from oneto you know, we just went to
sleep and enjoyed the peace ofbeing in a really remote,
(41:45):
beautiful place and withoutthose extra stressors that come
like with being in a combatenvironment where you know
legitimately you have to takeprecautions or your life could
be at risk.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
In the lives of the people that you're with.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Yeah, it's being able to experience it without that,
like you do want some excitementand a little bit of adrenaline
rush, um, but not to the pointwhere that's you're tapping into
that fight or flight, andthat's.
That's the one of the big keythings too right, like being
able to experience wonderfulthings without it being
connected to your fight orflight response yeah, the
(42:24):
amygdala is turned off and youcan just, you know, just enjoy
it.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
And there is like we have some areas on some of these
hikes where what we call is ahigh consequence fall, like it's
like legit, like you know,there's like eight or nine
inches of trail and on one sideis a 600 foot drop and if you
misstep, you know, but it getsyou hyper focused on getting
through that part and not havingthat but it's not the same, I
(42:52):
don't't think is um, when youknow someone's targeting you.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Yeah, yeah, very different.
You know there's the otherthing that, um, we have to move
away from is the idea that doingthese things will somehow like
take away the um, your warrior'sedge, like doing things to get
better and to move forwardYou're you certainly have to let
(43:17):
go of these myths and dogma,but you're not letting go or
moving away from the warriorthat you are.
Like that's something that alot of people still hold on to,
like if I go do these things tohelp me process or to help me
deal better with my anger, I'mletting go of the guy that got
(43:39):
me through my deployments.
And that's not the truth.
That's not reality.
Reality is you need to connectand be able to process things.
That person, that part of you,is still going to be there.
You're still a capable warrior.
You're just helping deal withsome of the baggage you have
that you've carried throughthose deployments, through those
life events, or you dealt withsome trauma.
(43:59):
Have you been able to to breakthat through?
And break through that, thatprotective coating some of the
hardened individuals that comethrough the program?
Speaker 2 (44:09):
oh, yeah, yeah, and it's really great to watch as
that happens, as they do setaside those things.
And you know the analogysometimes and this is where,
like being on the trail andbackpacking, you know, comes
into play.
And you know, in the military,you know the rock life is a real
thing, you know, live in therock life.
Like each one of those traumasor those things that you didn't
(44:36):
process, it's like puttinganother rock in your pack.
So how effective are you ifyou're carrying an extra 40 or
50 pounds of rocks in your pack?
Like you can't move, shoot andcommunicate in the same way that
you could if your pack only hadwhat it needed in it.
But each one of those things,those burdens, you know it's
like an extra.
You know it's like an extra.
You know five to 10 pound rockyou're putting in your pack, and
(44:59):
so that metaphor, you know,helps people.
Just, you know, kind of thinkthrough, I'm like, oh yeah, this
is going to actually make me,you know, like, but putting this
down, taking this out of mypack, actually makes me better
at being a soldier or a Marineor, you know, whatever,
whoever's out there with us.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Yeah, it's so true.
Shed the weight, get rid ofthat.
Yeah, whatever you're carrying,understand that you can process
it Like you don't, and it's.
It's not for me to tell you whento do it, but your family and
the people closest to you,they'll probably let you know
(45:37):
that there's some things youneed to let go of.
There's some things you need tomove forward.
Man, like, the best years ofyour life aren't behind you,
they're ahead of you.
So move forward into your lifewith a sense of purpose, a sense
of clarity and a sense thatyou've accomplished great things
and you're leaving all thebullshit behind you.
You don't have to carry it.
Whatever you're dealing with,trust me, you can get over it.
(46:00):
You can move through it.
The obstacle is the way.
Lean into it, don't ignore itanymore.
And I'm sure, brandon, you canbe a testament in your own
journey and share what it's donefor your life to face things
and and say you know what.
I'm going to make my nextchapter be of purpose and of
service to other people and I'mnot going to carry this with me
(46:21):
anymore.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, you know, as I reflect backon, you know my service and the
sort of the burdens that I'vecarried, um, being able to like
lay those down is it makes ahuge difference.
You know, like you, I'm married.
My wife and I we've beenmarried almost 29 years and you
(46:45):
know, if I'm not right, shemakes sure you know let's.
That's the benefit of a greatwife is, you know they'll,
they'll help you understand.
You know the rocks that I'm notwilling to put down.
They're like hey, I see you'vegot a big rock in your pack.
How come you're still all thataround?
It's like, oh, yeah, you'reright, I need to, I need to let
that you know, lay that down,cause, at the end of the day,
(47:07):
it's about the most importantpeople in your life, which,
hopefully, that's your.
You know.
If you're married, that's yourspouse.
If you have kids, that's yourkids, and if you don't have a
spouse or kids, you know it'sother important people.
At the end of the day, it's it'salways about relationships.
It's, um, you know, maybe yourrelationships with people that
you served with when you were in.
Maybe it's, you know, otherrelationships, family members,
(47:29):
you know.
But so one of the ways that Ilike to frame.
You know, those burdens orthose things that I'm carrying
is in what?
How are they getting in the wayof me having a deeper, you know
healthier, relationship withthe people that I care about?
And you know, that's one ofthose hard look in the mirror
kind of things like, okay, yeah,this thing that I'm carrying,
(47:53):
it's, it's getting in the way,so I need to do something about
it.
Um, and that's sometimes thehardest part, you know it's it's
taking action on that thing.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Yeah and uh.
Brandon, I can't thank youenough for being here today.
And one last thing if peoplewant to participate in your
program, how do they get aholdof you, how do they sign up and
where are some of the placesyou've gone to in the past?
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Yeah, so the easiest way is our website,
veteransinthewildorg.
We're a nonprofit so you knowsome of it's based on how much
fundraising we have coming inand our ability to offer
programs.
So right now the programs thatwe have open, we've got a couple
of marriage enrichmentexpeditions for the couples that
(48:37):
are out there.
We also have one that wehaven't announced yet, but we'll
have a couple more, actuallytwo more this fall where we'll
have folks Olympic National Parkarea or in the desert southwest
in Utah near Lake Powell, andwe've used the desert southwest
(49:05):
one because it's just a nextlevel kind of experience, to be
honest.
Yeah, you know that book that wereferred to by Dr Keltner, awe
like this area inspires more awethan any other place I've ever
been to.
And you combine it with theNavajo Nation.
One of the elders there we'vegotten to know fairly well and
(49:29):
so he'll come and give a littletalk to the veterans about the
sacredness of that land and howtheir warriors reintegrated back
into society and that's beenreally powerful to go into the
Navajo Nation, just setting thestage of this really sacred
place to go into.
So those are the two main areas, but we've done trips in
(49:50):
Florida.
Our trips originally began inNorth Carolina and we may be
back in North Carolina.
We're headed to Alaska thissummer as well.
That one's kind of a closedentry, though, because it's
being done with an organizationcalled 23rd Veteran, but the
website is the best place forpeople to learn more about the
programs that we offer, and youcan sign up on the website.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Thank you, Guys.
If you do me a favor, justpause right now.
Go to the episode description,either on YouTube, Spotify or
Apple Podcasts.
Look at those links, Go aheadand give them a click.
Can they donate directly to thewebsite if they go?
Speaker 2 (50:23):
there they can.
Yeah, there's a Donate Nowbutton, so if anybody's feeling
like, hey, I'd love to helpsupport veterans through one of
these programs, that would beamazing.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
Absolutely so, if you're already there, throw them
a couple bucks 25, 30, 50,maybe a cool hundred grand, help
fund them for the next year ortwo, I don't know.
Whatever you want, whatever youwant, it's important for us to
support these programs becausenot only are they giving back to
our community, they're helpingour brothers and sisters.
Look, the suicide epidemic isnot going away and no one's
going to solve it for us, but wecan support individuals that
(50:55):
are actually in the fight,helping stem this problem, and
that's what Brandon's doing.
That's what we need to supporthim and his organization.
So, please, whatever you gottoday, if you can spare a couple
of bucks, send them your way.
You know, help, contribute,help, put some money out there
to help programs like this keepgoing, because I know they make
a difference.
Some of my friends have beenparticipants in programs like
(51:16):
this and let me tell you, itchanges lives.
I myself, I'm headed over toutah here in a couple days to be
part of their overland program,which is amazing and every time
I go there I'm able to see myuh queen beret brothers go from.
You know, some of them aredealing with real world issues
and they walk in and you seethem.
They're struggling andafterwards, after just five days
(51:39):
out in some of the most amazing, beautiful areas of Utah,
they're a complete differentperson.
So I know that these programshelp save lives.
So please, seriously, if youcan donate today, please do so.
Brandon, I can't thank youenough for what you're doing and
for joining me today.
It's an absolute pleasure toconnect with you on here,
(51:59):
brother, and if you guys needanything, please reach out.
And to everybody listening,thank you for tuning in.
I truly appreciate it.
Head on over to YouTube, giveus a follow, a like and a
subscribe.
If you give us a review, I'dappreciate that too.
I'm Denny Caballero.
Thank you for tuning in andwe'll see you all next time.
Until then, take care.
Thanks for tuning in and don'tforget to like, follow, share,
(52:23):
subscribe and review us on yourfavorite podcast platform.
If you want to support us, headon over to buymeacoffeecom
forward slash SecHawk podcastand buy us a coffee.
Connect with us on Instagram Xor TikTok and share your
thoughts or questions abouttoday's episode.
You can also visitsecurityhallcom for exclusive
content, resources and updates.
And remember we get throughthis together.
If you're still listening, theepisode's over.
(52:45):
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