Dr. Leah Kaylor, Ph.D., MSCP: Mastering Sleep for Peak Mental Health

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Security Odd Podcast.
Let's go the only podcastthat's purpose-built from the
ground up to support you Notjust you, but the wider audience
, everybody.
Authentic, impactful andinsightful conversations that
serve a purpose to help you.
And the quality has gone up.
It's decent, it's hosted by me,Denny Caballero.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Dr Leah Kaler.
Welcome to Secure your HealthPodcast.
How's it going?

Speaker 3 (00:34):
I'm good.
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Absolutely.
I cannot pass up an opportunityto speak to somebody that is a
professional in the world ofsleep, as I always talk about it
.
We get brought up is aprofessional in the world of
sleep, as I always talk about it.
We get brought up in thisculture, in the military, that
sleep is a reward and you haveto earn it, and we're always
compromising that one aspect ofour lives that, if we actually

(00:57):
prioritize it, we could startfeeling the benefits of
restorative sleep, could startfeeling better, functioning
better, our memory can improve,and there's so many things are
restorative sleep could startfeeling better, functioning
better, our memory can improve,and there's so many things that
are tied to sleep, but we don'tput an emphasis on it.
So today, this is your episode.
We're gonna dive into it.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
I'm so excited and that is why I wanted to get a
chance to sit down and talk toyou because my book that's
coming out is called the SleepAdvantage advantage.
It's all about all theadvantages and the benefits that
you can take if you actuallygive your body the opportunity
and the chance to get the sleepthat it truly needs and deserves
to be able to perform at yourpeak performance yeah,

(01:37):
absolutely, and it's not aboutthese little cat naps like we
have to like.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, it's, it's so the the culture needs to change
around sleep and we need to slayand kill the kill the myths.
Um, and and I'm so excited tohave you here today because
there's a little bit of truth inevery um you know influencer
out there talking about it, butthere's a lot of misconceptions.
There's a lot of things thatare out there that are just like
something as simple asmagnesium, but not championing

(02:06):
the right type of magnesium andthen not giving the actually
informed information.
It's just, you find all theselittle sound bites in these
clips and it's like, oh, I'mgoing to put this stuff out
there and it's great, but today,like having you on here, it
gives that extra oomph of like,power and authority that we need
.

Speaker 3 (02:25):
Good, yeah, I'm so excited.
I agree with you.
I think that sleep is becominga little bit more trendy right
now, which I'm very excitedabout.
This is something that I'vebeen trying to champion for
several years now, and yetyou're exactly right.
There are things that I'mhearing about where I'm like, no
like.
Please, please, please.
Let's get back to the basics.
Let's get back to basic sleephygiene.

(02:45):
I'm not trying to peddle orsell you supplements or this or
that or a smart bed, even thoughI do have one and I love it.
We have been sleeping since thedawn of human time.
We don't need all these gadgetsand all these different things.
We need to give our body theopportunity to rest, because it
knows how to do it already.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Well, let's dive into your background for a little
bit.
Let's take it back to whereLeah got this idea that this is
where she was going to become aprofessional in.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
You know that's a great question and I wish that I
could remember.
So my interest in sleep started.
Well, I was at the Memphis VAMedical Center.
That's where I did my residencyfrom 2018 to 2019.
And I wish that I could go backin time and remember if I even
wanted the sleep rotation.
But that's what I ended upgetting is that we were there

(03:37):
and we had all of our internsand all of our postdocs and we
all had to go into a roomtogether and no one's coming out
until we figure out andeveryone is relatively happy
with all the rotations thatthey're going to get for that
particular year and, like I knewsome of the rotations that I
definitely wanted at that pointin time and I still am very
forensic focused so those werethe rotations that I wanted and

(03:58):
I ended up walking out withsleep as one of my rotations and
again, I wish I could rememberif that was one of the ones that
I even cared about or wasinterested in but, nonetheless,
that's where I spent a fairamount of time during my
rotation or, excuse me, on myinternship year, and I ended up
falling in love with it.
I learned how to do treatmentfor insomnia.

(04:20):
I did sleep hygiene classes,where a lot of people inevitably
fell asleep on me, which isfine, and you know, my veterans
were very sleep deprived.
I learned how to treatnightmares just a lot of really
interesting things, and but Ithink that I got a really really
good foundational understandingof why sleep is so important
and how many things it touches,because that is, it touches

(04:44):
everything.
I mean, there's really not athing that I can think of that
sleep doesn't touch.
And so that is where it allstarted.
And then I joined the FBI.
I am a clinical psychologistfor them, everything that I'm
going to say here today are myown thoughts, feelings, beliefs,
opinions, biases, whatever, butI've been their sleep expert
for over five years now, and oneof the very first days whenever

(05:08):
I started with the Bureau washey, what would you like to
start presenting on?
And I said sleep, becauseeveryone has sleep issues, and I
think that it is.
You know, whenever we talkabout mental health, whether
that's law enforcement, whetherthat's military, whether that's
our society in general.
I think there's still somestigma around it, and so I said

(05:30):
I want to start with sleep,because I think that everyone,
no matter who you are, canrelate to having sleep issues at
some point in your life.
Whether that is because you'vegot chronic pain, whether that's
because you have a new baby,everyone can relate to having
crap sleep at some point intheir life, and so that is where
I wanted to touch people andbring them in and then later,
maybe if they were interested inmoving more into other mental

(05:53):
health topics and things likethat.
But that was where I wanted tomeet people, where they were at,
and bring them in, and so itquickly, quickly took off and I
do sleep presentations, probablyabout once a month.
I go all over the country andit's just something that I'm
very passionate about, and Ithink that a lot of people just
brush it off to the side, maybethink that they have had crap

(06:14):
sleep for years and years andthere's nothing more that they
can do, or they think that theyknow everything that there is to
know about sleep and gettinggood sleep, and you know that's
just not in the cards for them,and I like to make my
presentations very engaging,like a lot of myth busting, just
like what you said, to letpeople know, know there are
things that you can do and youcan start doing them today to

(06:35):
begin to get better sleep, butit is a commitment it is.
And what are your priorities?

Speaker 2 (06:41):
Yeah, it's also important to understand that
it's an aspect of our lives thatwe don't understand and we're
constantly looking for ways toimprove our life.
If we just stop and look at thebasics, like the basic
principles of how we operatethrough our day in and day out,
you realize that the basicbuilding blocks of our

(07:05):
day-to-day life we can enhancethem and that's going to pay out
in higher dividends andspending money on more apps,
more watches, and it's like ifwe just focused on what we're
eating, what we're putting inour body, the amount of time
we're spending outside in theactual sunlight, instead of this
studio lighting, and thenmonitor our sleep a little

(07:27):
better, we can start actuallygetting back like you'll feel
better, you'll perform better,our metabolism, everything's
tied in those into our sleep andand I didn't understand it
until I got to this this worldof like okay, like I don't want
to be a broken veteran.
So how do I overcome all thesethings?
How do I get better?
And sleep is that final piece,because your brain's always

(07:49):
working.
You're always thinking whendoes it rest.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
Yes, and you know, I think that that's one huge
misconception.
If we're going to do some mythbusting is that I think people
think about sleep as like wastedtime or and and truly it is not
.
A lot of people think that youknow, when you turn off the
light switch to go to bed, thatyour brain and body also turn
off, and that couldn't befarther from the truth.

(08:13):
Your brain and we're talkingspecifically about REM sleep,
rapid eye movement when we're inREM if you were to put a cap
with electrodes on someone'sbrain and they're in REM sleep
and then also put a cap withelectrodes on someone else's
brain and they're awake, they'reactively problem solving.
Those brain waves lookincredibly similar.
That is how active the brain isat night, and so this is not,

(08:38):
while it is a time of rest andthere are a lot of really
important recovery things thatare happening throughout the
night and throughout the variousstages of sleep it is not a
time that is wasted or that isnot useful or not necessary.
That couldn't be farther fromthe truth.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah, the other thing I didn't know is everything in
your body has time to like,process and go through.
Functions of removing waste,and that happens in the brain
when you sleep.
Functions of removing waste andthat happens in the brain when
you sleep.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
This is like you are touching on all of my very
favorite pieces.
So a lot of times, whenever Igo to a conference and my
presentation is one of the manyin the lineup and you don't have
an option to go to a differentbreakout, a lot of people I
think are kind of like whatever,like I'll just sit here, I'll
zone out, and so I hit them withthis at the very beginning.
Like I'll just sit here, I'llzone out, and so I hit them with
this at the very beginning.
And so what I will say and thisis the truth is that one of the

(09:29):
incredible functions of yourbrain and this is when we give
it the proper amount of time tobe sleeping at night is that
your brain shrinks up and itallows cerebral spinal fluid to
come up and to basically give it, like a little car wash, to
come through and to get rid ofall the junk, the misfolded
proteins, the things that needto be cleaned out, and then it

(09:51):
takes it away as waste.
This should be happening everynight.
It's very important that thishappens every night.
I like to think about this, aswhenever you put your trash out,
today, for me it's trash day,and I'm very happy that my waste
management, people came andthey took it away.
But if we were to continue toput the trash out there and no
one came to take it away, it'sgoing to pile up, it's going to

(10:14):
start to stink, maybe we'regoing to have rodents, we're
going to have problems.
The waste needs to be takenaway and it's the same thing in
the brain.
If we are not allowing ourbrain to do this very important
waste management function, westart to have a buildup of
toxins.
And this is where I geteveryone's attention is these

(10:34):
toxins are often associated withneurodegenerative disorders,
like the umbrella term ofdementia, alzheimer's, these
you'll often hear words liketangles and plaques and beta
amyloids, these when we are notallowing that waste to be
removed, that is what we arecontributing to, and I want to

(10:58):
be very clear when I say this.
I'm not saying poor sleepautomatically equals you will
automatically get dementia.
I am not saying that.
I'm saying that you are settingyourself up for potentially
neurodegenerative disorders inthe future, in combination with
lots of other factors andgenetics that all come into play
.
However, you ought to be doingyourself a favor and being taken

(11:21):
as best possible care of yourbrain as you can, because it's
with you for the long haul.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah, yeah.
And we do a horrible job offraming it that way.
We do a horrible job of statingthat your sleep is crucial to
your brain health.
It's never addressed that wayand the biggest pushback that I
get is well, I can't sleep, Ijust can't sleep.
And how do we begin to addressthat issue?
I know because I I do sufferfrom insomnia and it is.

(11:49):
It is something that, like it,can creep back in with your if
you get out of your habits.
It is something that you haveto be able to work at.
It's not something's going togo away just by just wishing it
to go away.
You have to take action, andthat's the missing piece.
And it to go away?
You have to take action, andthat's the missing piece.
And if we're talking to thatpoint and addressing that to the
folks at home, like how, whatare some things we can start

(12:09):
doing today to address the sleepissue?

Speaker 3 (12:12):
Yeah, I think that you are hitting the nail on the
head, right, like we have to dosomething.
If we're getting poor sleep andwe're not making any changes,
well then no changes are goingto happen.
So some basic, easy things.
So we'll start with some basic,easy things and then we'll kind
of move through.
What you do in the daytime canreally impact how you sleep.

(12:34):
What you do in the evening andcloser to bed can really impact
the way that you sleep.
So what I would say first is,with the easiest pieces, as
we're starting to get into ourevening routine right now, where
the sun, where I live right now, is kind of setting around like
seven 30, which is which islovely.

(12:55):
You know, it was verydepressing whenever it's setting
at like 4 PM, 4 30, likegoodness gracious.
But one of the things that wecan do is to realign and
strengthen our circadian rhythmis, if we have the luxury of
being able to watch the sunset,that's fantastic for our
circadian rhythm.
If we don't have the luxury ofbeing able to do that, I get it.

(13:15):
Then dimming the lights in ourenvironment.
That's super duper simple.
You don't have a dimmer switch?
Okay, turn off the overheadsand just turn on a lamp.
These are very simple, easycues where the brain is start to
getting information.
Okay, like the sun is setting.
And with this we kind of need torewind.
We need to go back to ourcaveman ancestors, because, even

(13:36):
though it has been millennia,our brains are still the same
brains and our circuitry isstill very much the same.
So if we think about ourcaveman ancestor, how do they
know when it was time to beawake, the sun went up, and how
did they know whenever it wastime to go to sleep, the sun
went down.
And so we still have that samebrain and that same circuitry.

(14:00):
That seems so incredibly simpleand that we should have moved
past that with all of theadvances and all the technology
that we have.
However, that's not true at all, and so whenever we are doing
simple things like keeping allof our overheads on or all of
our really bright lights aroundus on until it's time for us to
go to bed, that's confusing tothe brain.

(14:20):
We want to be able to createthis environment where we're
starting to dim the lights.
So that's one very simple thing.
Going hand in hand with that, sowe're getting a little bit more
advanced would also be screensand blue light.
And the reason for this?
Because I think everyone hasheard this blue light, blah,
blah, blah.
The reason for this?

(14:40):
Because I like weaving scienceinto everything so you can
understand.
Blue light that is emitted fromour laptops, from our iPads,
from the television, from thephone that we're holding very
close up to our face, that emitsblue light.
Blue light is the samewavelength as sunlight, so what
we're doing is, instead ofletting the brain know, hey,

(15:03):
it's time to settle down, thesun is setting and going with
that dimming of the environment,instead, whenever we have all
these screens in our face andit's producing blue light, the
blue light is getting into theeyes, going back to the
suprachiasmatic nucleus, goingback to the pineal gland, and
it's saying oh wait, there'ssunlight coming in.

(15:23):
Stop the melatonin.
Okay, we also need to clarifymelatonin is a naturally
occurring chemical that yourbody makes.
It's not just the gummy at yourlocal big box store.
Melatonin is a naturallyoccurring chemical that your
body makes and that is how ourbody knows that it's time to
wind down, it's time to startfeeling sleepy, it's time to

(15:45):
yawn, the eyelids are gettingheavy.
So we're doing ourselves adisservice when we are using
screens and blue light veryclose to bedtime because it's
confusing the brain and it'smaking it think that we should
be alert and awake, because it'sinterpreting it as sunlight.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:04):
I realize that that's challenging.
I realize that a lot of peoplelike to wind down with
television or with watchingtheir favorite funny cat videos
or whatever.
I get that I understand, andeveryone is going to need
something to wind down and justkind of decompress from their
day.
Everyone is going to needsomething to wind down and just
kind of decompress from theirday.
But I'm here to just talk abouta lot of different potential
strategies and give youinformation.

(16:26):
One of my catchphrases, I feellike, is you don't know.
What you don't know, and Ithink that that's a huge piece
when it comes to sleep is that,yeah, maybe you knew that blue
light wasn't good, but now youknow why blue light isn't good.
So let me pause there, causeI'm very verbose, and let me ask
if you have any questions, andthen we can keep going on with
other ways that people can.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
No, absolutely.
This is.
This is your episode, doc.
We got, we keep going, but it's.
It's one thing that I I alwayshear from people is the, the,
the pushback to the TV and thecell phone, um, phone, um, and I
, I too, when I was hearing thatfrom the doctors, as she was
explaining to me, like cbti for,uh, insomnia, it one of the

(17:07):
things was like leave your phoneoutside and if you're
constantly drawn to your phone,leave it outside the bedroom.
Like we forget that there'ssuch a thing as reading a book,
a paper book.
We forget that.
Like, okay, you want to do anactivity.
Most people have a couch or achair in their living room.
Sit in that chair, read a book.

(17:28):
When you get tired, then go tobed.
But it's like having thediscipline, having the
discipline to choose the thing,because what's the overall
objective?
To get better.
Okay, I want to get better, Ihave to do these things.

Speaker 3 (17:42):
Exactly, and I think one of the things that you're
also touching upon that's goingto be very important for people
is you just mentioned you have acouch, go on the couch and read
, and this is a big problem thatI see.
So normally and this is thisall started at the VA I would
have a big whiteboard and in themiddle of my whiteboard I would
write bed, and I will ask myveterans okay, so what is it

(18:04):
that you are doing in bed?
And you know I get a lot offunny responses, but it's true,
a lot of people are scrolling,they're watching Netflix,
they're talking to their partner, they're playing with their pet
, they're I.
People tell me that they'reeating, that they're paying
bills, that they're doing work,emails, like all kinds of things
, are coming up.
And here's the thing Again thebrain is our most complex device

(18:25):
in the entire universe, butalso it can be very simple
sometimes too, and this is whereit gets to be really simple,
whenever I have this diagram ofbed in the middle, and then we
have scrolling and reading, andplaying with the pet and
watching funny videos, and wehave all these different things
that are being associated withthe bed.
Your brain wants to get into bedand it thinks I have all these

(18:48):
exciting things that I can bedoing.
What am I going to do?
What am I going to do?
I have so many options, so manyexciting things, and so the
brain has an entire menu ofoptions whenever it gets into
bed.
What we really need to be doingis restricting the bed to the
three S's.
Yes, you know this, and this isa big piece of CBTI Cognitive

(19:11):
Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia.
The three S's are sleep, sexand sickness.
Those are the three things thatyou should be doing in bed and
that, when we erase all theseother things, we are creating a
significantly strongerassociation between bed and
sleep.
I think that this is arelatively easy option for

(19:31):
people like take all of youractivities, even if you don't
want to cut them out.
If you want to keep yourscreens, do that somewhere else.
At least save the bed for sleep, sex and sickness.
You should be sleeping everynight.
I don't know how often you'regetting lucky.
And then, with regard tosickness, hopefully that doesn't
happen to you very often.
The reason why we say sicknessis because I'm not someone who

(19:55):
is a big proponent of naps, andthat's a whole nother
conversation.
However, when you can feel thatyou're fighting something off,
when you kind of know thatyou're starting to feel like the
beginning twinge of a cold.
Listen to your body, get thatextra rest, do what it is that
you need to do to fight that off.
Because, again, sleep is veryhighly connected to the immune
system and we can also talkabout that too.

(20:17):
But when we restrict all theseother activities to somewhere
else and we really focus onsleep and bed, that's when we're
going to be creating thestrongest association possible
and that's what we really,really want to be doing.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Absolutely.
And another thing to go offthat that I always hear from the
people that want to championthe idea that I can sleep
anywhere when I want, like it'snot that important.
I take naps.
Whenever I can get downtime, Itake a nap.
Sleep and a nap are verydifferent.
And they are not the same.
Come to find out.
We feel like, oh man, I feelgreat, it feels great.

(20:54):
And you continue this cycle ofjust taking naps in your car
during lunch break, and then youcontinue and continue.
And it's this cycle of justtaking naps in your car during
lunch break, and then youcontinue and continue, and it's
a cycle that continues.
You stay up late, you can'tfunction, doze off during
lunchtime, and then you tellyourself, well, I'm functioning,
when the reality is, and I havea feeling you're going to tell
us it's actually not the bestthing for us.

Speaker 3 (21:16):
And I think what you just said right there is I'm
functioning, okay, butfunctioning is a spectrum Are
you functioning well or are youfunctioning and I encourage you
to be very honest with yourselfabout this.
But yes, 100%.
So I will.
This is always a big part of mysleep talks is naps, and I'll
ask people who likes to nap, andinevitably we get a lot of

(21:36):
nappers.
You will read tons of thingsout on the internet.
There are tons of researchstudies out there.
I'm going to tell you what Ithink and do with it what you
will.
That's what I have to say.
When it comes to sleep, youshould be the normal, average,
healthy sleeper should be goingthrough various different cycles

(21:58):
of sleep throughout the night.
You'll be going through lightsleep.
You'll be going through variousdifferent cycles of sleep
throughout the night.
You'll be going through lightsleep, you'll be going through
deep sleep, you'll be goingthrough REM sleep, and each
sleep cycle lasts 50 to 90minutes and you'll normally go
through several complete cyclesa night.
Like I said, each of thosecycles does something really

(22:19):
important.
Like we talked about REM, thebrain is shrinking.
That's coming up with thecerebral spinal fluid.
It's getting this brain carwash.
But whenever we talk about deepsleep, this is super important
for all the wear and tear andmicro damage that our body has,
and so that is where it gets theopportunity to go in and to
kind of like repair what'shappening so we can continue to

(22:42):
function and protect ourselvesfrom injury.
So lots of differentfunctionings are happening.
Now, whenever you get a nap herefor 20 minutes or 40 minutes
over here, people will ask me ohwell, what stage of sleep am I
in when I'm in a nap?
I don't know, I'm not sure itdepends.

(23:02):
You know, how exhausted are you?
How much time are you givingyour body?
Because, yeah, there's just somany different things that come
with napping that it's just kindof mysterious.
Whereas if you're giving yourbody the amount of time that it
needs which for adults that'sanywhere between seven to nine
hours of sleep per night, thenwe can more predictably know

(23:23):
that you're going to be goingthrough these various different
sleep cycles.
Again, if you don't alreadyhave a known sleep disorder, and
we can guarantee, or at leasthave a really good idea, that
the brain is going to do and thebody is going to do what it
needs to throughout the night sothat you can wake up feeling
really rested.
And one thing I'll say, eventhough I'm telling you that I'm
not a proponent of naps, and Istand by that if you are in a

(23:46):
situation where you're verysleepy, you're behind the wheel,
you are operating heavymachinery stop, go, take a nap,
for your own safety, for thesafety of others, however.
So I want to put thatdisclaimer out there.
But when we get to the pointwhere we are awake all day long
and then our sleep pressure,also known as adenosine, builds

(24:10):
up, then we have enough sleeppressure or sleep drive to sleep
throughout the night.
When you are taking naps hereand there throughout the day for
various different lengths oftime, maybe more than one nap
then things get a little screwedup.
Our sleep pressure isn't theway that it should.
So what should be happening iswe sleep throughout the night,

(24:34):
we wake up, our sleep pressure,our adenosine, should be very
low, and then it should buildand build and build and should
be very low, and then it shouldbuild and build and build and
build all day long, and thenthat is where we feel, at the
end of the day very tired,sleepy, fatigued.
Eyes are heavy, yawning, likeall these signs that you're.
I like to call it the wave ofsleepiness.
We need to ride.
That wave of sleepiness is whatwe need to do, but a lot of

(24:55):
times we don't do that.
But let me go back to someonewho naps throughout the day.
So if you are awake, youradenosine should be building, or
AKA your sleep pressure.
But if you take a nap, thenthat adenosine is going to dip
down because you're not havingas much sleep pressure.
You gave your body some sleep,so by the time that it should be

(25:17):
your bedtime.
A lot of people struggle thenwith being able to fall asleep
or sleep being fragmented orjust not very high quality sleep
.
It's because the sleep pressureisn't built up the way that it
should be.
So one easier way to thinkabout this is I love
Thanksgiving and I love like Iwill fast all day long until

(25:42):
it's time for.
Thanksgiving dinner Cause I wantto freaking load up Like I'm.
This is the day where I willendorse binging and I will be a
part of this.
Like I want to crush it.
I want everything on my plate.
I want to make room for dessert, Like it's the American way,
damn it.
I've, I'm here for it, and sothat's the way that I like to

(26:03):
think about sleep, and getting agood night's sleep is staying
awake all day long and thenpreparing yourself to have a
really good night's rest.
Now, if we are, it'sThanksgiving day and we're
having a snack here, we'rehaving a snack there, maybe
we're even having like breakfastor lunch.

(26:23):
Those snacks are like naps, sodepending upon how long your nap
was, what time of the day thenap was, this is going to impact
how hungry you are for yourThanksgiving dinner or how much
sleep pressure you are going tohave for a good night's rest.
And so I like that analogy,because then people will start

(26:46):
to get a little bit better of anunderstanding of like oh okay,
I see how I'm getting in my ownway.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
Yeah, we, we tend to think that we can have our cake
and eat it too.
In reality, as folks stay awake, um, it's hard and I get it.
I was there, I lived in that.
That mentality of like sleep'sa crutch, like no, it's not like
the, that is like the dumbestthing is we breed it into our
culture where it's like if youmake this ruck, if you get to

(27:14):
the patrol base, you might getsleep.
If you don't, you're not gonnaget asleep.
And it's like it pays to be achampion, it pays to be a winner
, so we win, we'll get sleep,and it's the end of the day like
we're just sleep deprivedzombies.
And it's like I get it.
It's needed for like theselection process.
It's needed for like the painand the misery of a high

(27:34):
performing you selection processto become an elite member of
SEALs, green Berets, rangers.
But when you get into the force, you have to look at everything
as is it going to enhance myperformance or is it going to
limit my performance.
And that's what we have tochange.
It's not about changing youknow the way we we assess and

(27:57):
train.
Like going through hard things,like ranger school is still
going to suck.
Guys, I can't help you withthat Special forces selection
assessment still going to suck.
You go to jungle school.
It's going to suck On thebackside of it for your normal
life and then when you're goinginto training and preparing for
your next mission and yourdeployment, this is where the
stuff comes in.
It's about understanding thatnow you're a performance athlete

(28:20):
.
Welcome to the elite, welcometo the US military.
Now you have to look at yourperformance, and it starts with
sleep, and then we can start theconversation with okay, if I
don't prioritize it, how else amI going to suffer?
And I will tell you that yourrest of your body and your
performance is going to suffertoo.
The two areas that I like tofocus on to like let people know

(28:47):
, like hey, this is going tohelp you out big time is your
performance cognitively.
It's been measured like yourability to focus and retain data
is insanely affected, and Iwant you to get into this with
us and let us know the sciencebehind that.

Speaker 3 (29:04):
I think that you're making an excellent point, and
so this is very exciting for me,because just this week I
started writing my second book,which is the Sleep Advantage,
but it's the military edition.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
Oh nice, yes, it's so exciting and I'm in there, oh
nice.

Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yes, it's so exciting and you know I'm in there we
know about sleep deprivation,but I talk specifically about
Sears School and we purposefullydo sleep deprivation and
there's a point behind thetraining and this is exactly
what you talked about.
However, that's not how we liveour lives and that's not how we

(29:38):
should live our lives.
This is a very specific, timelimited training that you will
have in your back pocket if theworst of the worst happens, and
you will hopefully be able tofunction as best as you possibly
can because you've had thistraining.
However, this is not a way oflife now.
This is not what it should be.
So, whenever we are thinkingabout sleep deprivation and this

(30:00):
sounds ridiculous, but theresearch out there and the
bodies that be, with regard tothose who put out information on
sleep and sleep researchconsider less than six hours to
be sleep deprivation, and I'msure people are like, oh my God,
they're rolling their eyes.
They're like, oh, that'shysterical.
I haven't gotten six hours ofsleep and I can't tell you when.

(30:20):
But really think about it.
We use sleep deprivation as atorture technique.
Just let that sink in, and whenwe're sleep deprived, things go
off the rails.
Whenever we are sleep deprivedfor only 24 hours.
And again, people are probablylaughing that this is something

(30:42):
that happens to them on theregular, based on their job,
their position, life demands.
I get it.
When that happens, you are at alevel not that you are
intoxicated, but you'refunctioning at a level of very
mild intoxication and that meansthat your reaction times are
slowed, that your thinking isfuzzy, your ability to make

(31:05):
decisions not so hot.
There's a lot of thingscognitively that are going wrong
and if we continue to push thatlimit of 36 hours, 48 hours, 72
hours, things go off the railsto the point where it looks like
someone may be having apsychotic episode.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yep, I've seen it.
I've seen it, and there's a lotof courses in the US military
that require you to stay upsuper late some days back to
back, and one of the things thatyou realize when you're in
these courses is you see peoplechange in their behavior and
it's like if, and then youstarted looking at yourself like

(31:45):
, okay, that guy's absolutelybatshit crazy right now.
How much longer before that'shappening to me?
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:52):
Or am I too, and I just don't realize it yet.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
We start to see things that ityet.

Speaker 3 (31:57):
Yeah, absolutely we start to see things that aren't
there, we start to hear thingsthat aren't there.
That's what it's like to have apsychotic episode, and that is
what we're inducing when we getto the point of pretty intense
sleep deprivation yeah, it's notfun, folks, and and I I I'm
speaking from, not somebodythat's higher and almighty Look,

(32:19):
I mess this up all the time.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
I currently can tell you there's two days this week
where I will not be sleeping,but that doesn't mean that we
don't self-correct when we can'tLook, you gotta make deadlines
happen.
I get it.
But stop operating in thedeficit.
Stop operating in this ideathat you can just kick the can
down the road and startprioritizing and understand like

(32:44):
, okay, like you have a mission,a train up coming up and you're
going to have to stay up superlate.
Don't let that become the habit.
As soon as you rotate back,you're not in that training
environment.
Get back to your normal.
That's the one thing that I seeguys mess up so often is
something happens, it's trainingor deployment.
They come back home and,instead of just getting back

(33:05):
into the discipline, theycontinue to let it get out of
hand.
And there are some great toolsout there.
What are some ways or what aresome things that you recommend
to help somebody establish thatroutine in that habit?

Speaker 3 (33:21):
Absolutely, and one of the things that I want to
mention before we jump into thatis especially people who do any
type of night shift or rotatingshifts.
So one of the things that weknow from the World Health
Organization is that when we areworking a night shift, so
basically the person is awakeand working when they should be
sleeping, and vice versa.
When a person is on a shiftlike that, that is a known

(33:44):
carcinogen.
That means yeah that means thatwe know that this is something
that has the potential to causecancer.
Again, I'm not saying that onenecessarily causes the other,
because, again, genetics, otherdynamics come into play.
However, we know that this isnot good and this is not natural

(34:04):
for the body.
So I think that that speaks toyour point of yeah, you may have
this crazy week or this crazyday where you have to go, you
have an early morning call out,you've got whatever going on.
But getting back to thatconsistency and one of the if I
could only talk to you for threeminutes and I could only give
you one tip it's not sexy, it'snot exciting, but it's the best

(34:26):
tip that I can give you isconsistency.
Going to bed at the same timeevery night and waking up at the
same time every morning I knowthat that can be very
challenging for people, justdepending upon what their
schedules look like, all thedemands that they have on their
time.
However, that is one of thebest possible things that you
can do for your body isconsistency.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yeah, I champion that idea and we'll throw out to you
, if you're listening, the ideathat we have to stay up to like
10 or 11 pm sounds superattractive when you're young,
let me tell you.
Let me tell you the sweet spotwhen you get to bed at like 7 or
8 pm fucking amazing and thenwake up earlier, like that is,

(35:08):
that is the greatest.
Like you have all sorts ofinfluencers giving you like
cheat codes for how to be abetter and more successful
person on earth, how to be thebest salesman, read this book.
Let me just tell you this Go tobed early.
If you can go to bed at six,fuck hell.
Yes, dog, you're going to becrushing it.
Go to bed at 6 PM, wake up atfour and and why I'm throwing

(35:30):
this out it sounds ridiculous.
At at in my twenties and earlythirties I would have said
you're stupid, denny.
I want to go out and have anightlife.
I will tell you this Figure outyour ideal sweet spot.
Don't let somebody tell youLike for the longest time I was
operating on just what otherpeople were telling me and just
going off that oh, I got to bein bed by this time.
I have to wake up at this time,and if you're out of the

(35:51):
military, even better.
It's a perfect time for you toexplore.
And if you're out of themilitary, even better.
It's a perfect time for you toexplore.
I realized that I functionbetter when I can wake up early,
and when I can wake up early Ican do work.
I don't have to worry about therest of the world.
The little one's still asleep,wife's asleep.
That's prime time for you to dothe things that you always
wanted to do, like read thatmorning meditation, read your

(36:12):
Bible, do your prayers, go tothe gym, do all those things
that are you centric, that youwant to do for you.
And the only way you get thatis if you go to bed early, if
you are able to beat the clock,get that rest you need.
Because if you try it and yeah,I tried going to bed late and
then waking up early that thatdeficit you're never going to
beat.
That You're never going to beat.
That You're going to always betired.

(36:33):
You're going to be the mostlike trying to be productive,
dude around with just giant bagsand just always being that
you're half ass productive, justlike constantly behind the ball
because your cognitiveperformance is directly linked
to your sleep.

Speaker 3 (36:47):
It is pride myself on being very elderly at heart and
like I'm in bed at nine and Ihave been for a very long time.
But again, I practice what Ipreach.
I'm very serious about my sleephygiene.
But another reason why I'm soserious about this and another
book that I love and if you'revery into science, why we Sleep,

(37:09):
by Matthew Walker.
He talks about specific hormonesthat are released at night and
that they're only released at avery particular point in the
night, and so if you're someonewho's staying up until midnight,
until one o'clock, well, sorry,you missed that window, and if
you continue to keep missingthat window, you're going to
keep continuing to miss out onthese very important hormones

(37:31):
that are being released onlyduring that very specific window
in time.
So I think that you've readthis book before, or you know
exactly what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
Yeah, it's something that we tend to think that
hormones are this, uh, thesemagical, magical little fairies
that only happen here, like it.
It's not that you.
You have hormones in your gut.
The systems are connected andnot getting the right amount of
sleep and being sleep for theright amount of time.
And that's why I said, like yougotta be, you gotta take
ownership of this and you haveto explore what your cycle is,

(38:02):
what your best optimum sleeptimes are, because, I get it,
some people don't need eighthours of sleep.
But you got to figure that out,you got to take ownership of
this problem.
And hormones are important.
Right now, everybody's talkingabout testosterone.
We're always oh, testosterone,testosterone.
It's not the only one you gotto worry about.
There's a whole slew of them,and if you're only worried about

(38:26):
what you're testing, what yourtestosterone levels are, you're
missing out on everything else.
There's a whole slew of thingsthat can help you feel better.
We're now like we have ahyper-focus on anxiety and
depression, and I would, youknow, I would not be doing this
podcast of service if we didn'ttalk about that, because those

(38:47):
two are, are, are.
I would say I would argue thatanxiety and depression are
probably the most prevalentright now within our force, in
the wide military and within thecivilian world as well.
Well, what if I told you thatif you actually addressed your
sleep, you could actually belooking at improving both of

(39:07):
those?
If you're, if you're sufferingfrom those and I'm not saying
that's the only thing, um, I'msaying that it can help improve
your feelings, it can help youfeel a lot better, and it
certainly is tied to depressionand anxiety.
And if you're not addressing it, you're not trying everything.
If you really want to be aperformance-driven individual,
you have to try every singlething.
So when we're looking atanxiety and depression in your

(39:32):
background, how have you beenable to see it manifest and
quickly be addressed by just notonly with medication, but also
being able to focus on the sleepof the individual?

Speaker 3 (39:40):
Yeah.
So as a clinical psychologistand then also a prescribing
psychologist, so I do have theability to prescribe mental
health medications.
Whenever it comes to mentalhealth conditions, I get tons
and tons of referrals for sleepissues, and I'm putting that
into quotes, for those of youwho are just listening, and what
it turns out whenever I meetthe person to go ahead and do

(40:03):
some one-on-one sleep coachingor consulting, or putting
together like an individualizedplan for the person, we start to
talk a little bit and then I'mlike, oh, actually, you know
what this is?
Unaddressed anxiety, depression, trauma that is manifesting as
a sleep issue, and that'sprobably nine times out of 10,
what's actually happening.
And here's the thing, thoughit's kind of like this weird

(40:24):
chicken and the egg like cycleof if you're having anxiety and
depression and it's untreated,well then it's going to make
your sleep worse, because whenyou go to lay down okay, maybe
your mind is racing, it's goingto go through all the things
that you did today, all thethings that can go wrong.
It's just going to like anxietyis going to start to snowball.
Or again, when we're thinkingabout depression and anxiety and

(40:46):
depression go hand in hand,they're best friends.
So depression?
Sometimes people will tell meI'm sleeping and I'm I'm
sleeping for 10, 11, 12 hours,especially on the weekends, when
people have more of a luxury tobe able to do that and I'm like
, okay, well, now we're gettinginto a territory of untreated
depression, and one thing that Iwill clarify is everyone is

(41:09):
going to look different wheneverit comes to mental health
concerns.
So when we're looking at theDSM, which is the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual for MentalDisorders, that's like basically
the book when I ever come to it.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
DSM-5, the standard.

Speaker 3 (41:20):
DSM-5, text revised now.
And so when we're looking atthat and it's describing either
anxiety or depression, it canlook like sleeping too much or
sleeping too little, and we havevery much a spectrum there.
But oftentimes sleep is goingto be impacted, and so when
we're not addressing our mentalhealth issues, it's manifesting
as sleep.

(41:41):
But when we're not taking careof our sleep issues either, our
mental health is not getting anybetter.
Because if we're not spendingtime and we talked about the
various different stages, butREM is really really important
for kind of almost like anemotional reset, if you will If
we're not spending enough timein REM, we are not going to be
able to have our emotionsregulated.
So think about whenever you'venot gotten a great night's sleep

(42:03):
maybe you didn't get as muchsleep as you wanted Chances are
you're feeling a little on edge,a little snippy.
Maybe you're not your best self.
That's when you don't haveenough RAM, that your body
hasn't had the time to do thisemotional reset and kind of work
through what it is it has, it'sneeded to work through.
And so, yes, we we would beremiss if we didn't talk about

(42:26):
how these go hand in hand, andyou know also if we want to go
down the road of nightmares too.
That is your brain's way ofattempting to process things
that are very emotionallychallenging.
And when we have a nightmareespecially if we're having a
nightmare night after nightafter night after night and we
can talk about specifictreatments for that your brain

(42:46):
is trying to help you, eventhough it might not seem like it
, and I'm sure that thatnightmare feels just never
ending, and then it makes youmaybe not want to go to sleep
either, which is a whole notherproblem.
But whenever we're havingnightmares, it's because we
haven't addressed or processedwhatever it is that we need to
during the daytime.
So when the brain switched overinto nighttime, it's like okay,

(43:07):
let's give it a different try,let's try and work through this
during REM sleep, and ouradrenaline and our cortisol are
too high to be able to processit successfully, and that's why
we're having nightmares.
So we'll just leave that there.
Well, nightmares, I think, isjust a huge prevalent problem,
and there are other ways toaddress that.

(43:28):
If we want to go down that road,we can talk about that too.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
Yeah, I think, and and what I want to pause and
just address with nightmares islike if you're suffering with
nightmares, reoccurringnightmares, you're not alone.
There's a vast majority of usthat either are dealing with it
or have overcome it.
And I will tell you this theeasiest way to move forward is
to just sit down, talk, reachout, get help.

(43:55):
Just sit down, talk, reach out,get help.
There's nothing wrong withtelling your provider, telling
your mental health provider,that you're dealing with
nightmares.
It's a common thing.
If you have served in themilitary for the past 20 years
or law enforcement, you havebeen impacted by something,
absolutely 100%.
I will tell you right nowthings will get better.

(44:15):
You'd not.
You're not going to always dealwith this.
I assure you that there is apath to having peace and putting
all this behind you.
I just recommend that you gethelp today.
There's nothing wrong withreaching out for professional.
In this episode description,I'll put a couple of links for
places you can go.
Uh, reach out today.
Mission 22 is a great programthat I like to highlight and

(44:35):
throw out there because I knowthat it's helped certain
individuals.
I get no kickback from it, butI will put a link to their
program as well at the episodedescription, because, yeah,
nightmares can be pesky andoftentimes, for a vast majority
of us, it's kind of why we'reavoiding sleep.
I certainly was, but I willalso say this One of the last
things that I want to touch onis that you should never, ever,

(44:55):
ever be chasing bottles ofalcohol, chasing alcohol in any
form or any drug, in order toget sleep.
That's one of the mostdangerous things that our
collective warrior tribe hasbeen dealing for a long time.
Alcohol is not your shortcut tosleep.
It may seem like it, but it isa very dangerous and slippery

(45:18):
slope and it will only lead toheartbreak, not only for
yourself, but the people youlove.
So, please, if you arelistening to this and you're
identifying with any of theissues and any of the things
that we're speaking about,resonate with you.
Just know that alcohol is notyour key to sleep.
Resonate with you.
Just know that alcohol is notyour key to sleep.

(45:38):
Um, it is not something thatanybody, any trained
professional, will everrecommend for you absolutely not
.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
Yeah, no, and I'm so glad you mentioned this because
I put a lengthy chapter in mybook called like there's a
difference between sleep andpassing out yes.
There is a difference, and avery big difference, right Like
whenever it comes to usingalcohol as a sleep aid, and it's
unfortunate that we do this,but this is something that is

(46:04):
very common because alcohol isvery readily accessible, it's
easy to get our hands on, wedon't need a prescription, and
it's socially very acceptable,too, to get off shift and to go
to the bar.
Whenever it comes to drinkingalcohol, it's going to work
against your ability to fallasleep.
Yeah, it's going to make youfeel sleepy.
It's a sedative.
That's what it does.

(46:24):
However, once it gets down intoyour stomach, it turns into
sugar and it's only going tokeep you awake.
It's going to make your sleepvery fragmented.
You're not going to be able tocycle through those sleep stages
that you should be.
So, while you may be, I don'teven want to say like tricking
yourself into sleeping, but thatis not quality sleep whatsoever

(46:47):
.
So, again, thinking about whatare your other options, and I
couldn't agree with you morewith regard to seeking help from
a mental health professional Ifthat's not something that
you're ready to do yet.
Trusted friend, family member,co-worker, pets, journaling,
things like that.
You know my specialty is sleep,but my other specialty is

(47:08):
trauma, and so I'll just throwthis out there too that yes, we
have treatment for nightmare,which that's called imagery
rehearsal therapy, if you wantto look into that further.
But for those and when Istarted with the FBI, I very
quickly came to realize that,and especially with the VA too
y'all don't like to talk aboutyour feelings, surprise,

(47:30):
surprise.
So I needed to figure out otherways where I could still get
the job done, get it done veryquickly and make sure that you
are OK on the other end in avery quick and effective way.
Because whenever it comes totalk therapy while it absolutely
has a time and a place ifyou're not willing to talk, it's
not going to work.

(47:51):
So I became certified, and I amcertified in EMDR eye movement,
desensitization and reprocessingas well as brain spotting.
So a lot of people don't knowabout brain spotting.
I like to think of it as EMDRis like younger, cooler cousin,
and you know these could beepisodes in and of themselves
about how these modalities work.
But what's beautiful about themis that there's not a ton of

(48:14):
talking.
It really is much more of asilent process.
We have gotten a much betteridea of how the brain works and
how to capitalize on variousdifferent ways to get the brain
to process things and to healitself, without so much emphasis
on reliving or re-exposure, oremphasis on talking, because

(48:37):
also, too, not all parts of thebrain have language, which is
just so incredibly interestingto think about.
So I'll just put those outthere for people to explore
further, and maybe we'll doanother episode on that.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
Absolutely.
We got to bring you back, um,and I got to get you on a few
other shows.
Um, yeah, that's a a nice thingabout owning your own podcast
production company.
I can get you on any other showthat I produce which I'm going
to because I enjoy thisconversation, everybody
listening.
Please do me a favor.
Pause right now.
Go to the episode description.
There you'll see a plethora oflinks to Dr yeah Kaler's work.

(49:12):
Go ahead and peruse them.
If people want to get ahold ofyou, doc, where can they go?

Speaker 3 (49:17):
Yeah, so I have a LinkedIn, but I also have social
media and my YouTube isstarting to grow.
And it's all Dr Leah Kaler, andthat's also the name of my
website.
And then, if you are interestedin having me come and talk to
your department or your squad, Iwould be happy to do that.
You can reach me at info atdrleahkaylorcom.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
Perfect, and you'll see all those links at the
description.
It's been absolutely a pleasurehaving you on here today.
I'm like blown away so much funtalking to you about this stuff
, because I'm passionate, I'velived it, I've been on the other
side and it's, I'll tell you,just like mental health.
Sleep's a journey.
You're going to have good days,you can have bad days, but the
important thing you need tounderstand and I'm stealing this

(50:00):
directly from my good friend,eric Simcox, shout out to you
Eric is a and his surfer coolguy voice came in.
You know, when you get throughinsomnia, just know that some
days it'll come back, but youknow you've gotten sleep before
and you'll get sleep again.
Don't get too stressed outabout it.
Don't get in your head Ifyou're going through a bout of
it right now.
Just know that you can take adeep breath, go get a workout,

(50:21):
get uh, get some endorphins andthen go home, have a good meal,
wait for the sunset and thenlisten to my voice.
Let it lull you into an awesomesleep.
I'm Denny Caballero.
Thank you for tuning in andwe'll see you all next time.
Until then, take care.
Thanks for tuning in.
And don't forget to like, follow, share, subscribe and review us

(50:41):
on your favorite podcastplatform.
If you want to support us, headon over to buymeacoffeecom
forward slash SecHawk podcastand buy us a coffee.
Connect with us on Instagram Xor TikTok and share your
thoughts or questions abouttoday's episode.
You can also visitsecurityhallcom for exclusive
content, resources and updates.
And remember we get throughthis together.

(51:02):
If you're still listening theepisode's over.
Yeah, there's no more Tune intomorrow or next week.

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